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Michelle J. Haines
July 14th 03, 07:42 PM
In article >, kayo78
@tampabay.rr.com says...
> Hello
> I am looking for articles, literature, or website that against
> homeschooling. I want to find out some facts (or close to facts) that why we
> should NOT do homeschooling. I need this for my paired-debate speech. If
> anybody knows something about this issue, please let me know. I appreciate
> it.

Do your own homework. You can Google and check Amazon just as easily
as the rest of us.

Michelle
Flutist

--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00)
Zachary Mitchell (01/12/94, began fostering 09/05/01)
Theona Alexis (06/03/03)

H Schinske
July 14th 03, 07:42 PM
wrote:

>I need this for my paired-debate speech.

In other words, for homework? The most I'll help you with is to suggest looking
up *any* homeschooling sites, and if all you get is the pro side, look at how
they defend themselves and figure out how they've been attacked before (e.g.,
if they are saying that homeschooling does not either make your ears turn
green, think of some reason why someone might think it did).

--Helen

iphigenia
July 14th 03, 08:21 PM
Kayo wrote:
>> I need this for my
>> paired-debate speech. If anybody knows something about this issue,
>> please let me know. I appreciate it.

Thanks, but having graduated means I don't have to do homework anymore.

--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net

Leah Adezio
July 14th 03, 09:13 PM
"Kayo" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello
> I am looking for articles, literature, or website that against
> homeschooling. I want to find out some facts (or close to facts) that why
we
> should NOT do homeschooling. I need this for my paired-debate speech. If
> anybody knows something about this issue, please let me know. I appreciate
> it.

Sorry, I don't do my own children's homework. I'm not going to do yours.

Search engines are there for a reason.

Use them.

Leah
______
In Memory of David, 11/10/61 - 5/21/03
Beloved Husband, Father, Heart's Companion

>
> Kayo
>
>

lizzard woman
July 15th 03, 01:30 AM
"Kayo" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello
> I am looking for articles, literature, or website that against
> homeschooling. I want to find out some facts (or close to facts) that why
we
> should NOT do homeschooling. I need this for my paired-debate speech. If
> anybody knows something about this issue, please let me know. I appreciate
> it.

Well I *WOULD* have helped but you provided too many details.

--
sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)

just me
July 15th 03, 02:46 AM
"Kayo" > wrote in message
m...
> Hello
> I am looking for articles, literature, or website that against
> homeschooling. I want to find out some facts (or close to facts) that why
we
> should NOT do homeschooling. I need this for my paired-debate speech. If
> anybody knows something about this issue, please let me know. I appreciate
> it.


Your request is one of the better ones I've seen for the pro side of the
argument. Product reflects the system that made it and all.

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03

Joni Rathbun
July 15th 03, 03:25 AM
On Mon, 14 Jul 2003, dragonlady wrote:

> In article >,
> "Kayo" > wrote:
>
> > I am not asking you to do my homework. I am trying to find some resources
> > that against homeschool. Don't take me wrong. I am doing my OWN homework by
> > MYSEFL!
> >
>
> Well, unless things have changed a great deal, part of the homework is
> learning to find those resources. I suppose one technique is asking
> someone else where it is - but you'd be better off to ask the librarian
> to help you find it, because then at least you'll know what the search
> looks like.
>
> Although I may begin a search on line these days, I always end up in the
> library sooner or later. Have you checked your library's card catelogue
> (or whatever they call the on-line equivalent)? Look under stuff like
> "educational options". Do you know how to use the Reader's Guide to
> Periodic Literature? (That's another good place to start.)

Our libraries no longer subscribe to Reader's Guide because we have
moved to online periodical databases. The writer might have access
to those from home if her public library system or school library
system subscribes. We grant off site access to all of our students
and staff. Online or off, however, you are correct that periodicals
would be a good source of info on this particular topic.

kereru
July 15th 03, 12:11 PM
"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Kayo" > wrote:
>
> > I am not asking you to do my homework. I am trying to find some
resources
> > that against homeschool. Don't take me wrong. I am doing my OWN homework
by
> > MYSEFL!
> >
>
> Well, unless things have changed a great deal, part of the homework is
> learning to find those resources. I suppose one technique is asking
> someone else where it is - but you'd be better off to ask the librarian
> to help you find it, because then at least you'll know what the search
> looks like.
>
> Although I may begin a search on line these days, I always end up in the
> library sooner or later. Have you checked your library's card catelogue
> (or whatever they call the on-line equivalent)? Look under stuff like
> "educational options". Do you know how to use the Reader's Guide to
> Periodic Literature? (That's another good place to start.) If you
> want to stick to internet sites, surely you know how to use a search
> engine. Try typing in "against homeschooling" -- I have no idea what
> will turn up, and you'll have to evaluate the sites for usefulness, but
> that's one place to begin.
>
> Coming onto a parenting newsgroup and asking us to find the sites for
> you is really no different than asking your mom or dad to find the sites
> for you -- if they are helping appropriately, they might sit beside you
> and walk you through it, but they won't just point!
>
> meh
> >
> --
> Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
>

When I was at school/university asking someone who knows more than you was
considered a reasonable step in carrying out research. How do you lot know
that the OP hasn't already done a Google search, been to the library etc..
How do we know that he/she isn't just looking for more info on top of that?

Isn't asking a group of people who are guaranteed to be involved in
schooling (parents) a reasonable option? After all we try to encourage kids
to explore many avenues. Not everything is available on google.

I agree if this is all the research he/she plans to do then it is a bit
lazy, but we have no way of knowing that.

I wonder if the reaction would have been the same if the request had been
for positive homeschooling information.

Judy

Beth Kevles
July 15th 03, 01:04 PM
Hey, guys! Can you at least give the kid some pointers on what words
might work best on google, whether there are any sites that are more
reputable, instead of just blowing her off? Getting started on the
internet, on a brand new topic, is NOT just as easy as using a search
engine.

I'd suggest starting with the AskERIC web site. (BUt you'll have to
google to find the URL.)

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

Michelle J. Haines
July 15th 03, 05:05 PM
In article >,
says...
>
> Part of the research process is asking questions. I had to interview
> people for information when I was a kid. I would have been in a sorry
> state if the people I chose to interview said "do your own homework."

And you know what? If she had asked to interview us, I'm sure she
would have gotten some enthusiastic responses. She didn't ask for
that. She asked us to do her basic research for her -- telling her
were to find articles, what books she should read, etc. She can do
that research just as well as the rest of us.

Michelle
Flutist
--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00)
Zachary Mitchell (01/12/94, began fostering 09/05/01)
Theona Alexis (06/03/03)

Joni Rathbun
July 15th 03, 06:30 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, Nan wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:25:13 -0700, Joni Rathbun
> > wrote:
>
> >Our libraries no longer subscribe to Reader's Guide because we have
> >moved to online periodical databases. The writer might have access
> >to those from home if her public library system or school library
> >system subscribes. We grant off site access to all of our students
> >and staff. Online or off, however, you are correct that periodicals
> >would be a good source of info on this particular topic.
>
> Yes, the libraries in Indiana use a database called INSPIRE. It's a
> fantastic resource. The OP (or whoever) should call her local library
> and find out the url if one is available.
>

*Everyone* should probably do this. I am constantly surprised
by how many people I meet locally who do not realize they have free access
to some absolutely fabulous online resources that would cost them a
few thousand dollars to subscribe to on their own. More and more
states and/or library systems are providing this service since it
usually costs little or nothing more to allow off-site access.
Theoretically speaking, every single person in the state of Nevada
has free access. All that's needed is a library card or a
student in school.

I access some of the databases on an almost daily basis and always
just hold my breath when budget time rolls around, afraid they'll
disappear. I could never afford to pay for it on my own. But the
more people who use them, the more likely it is that a state will continue
to provide funding!


(No, I'm not affilated with any of the database vendors; I'm
just an enthusiastic user! Much of the good stuff online is not
available for free....)

Beth Kevles
July 15th 03, 09:48 PM
For what it's worth, I just ran a few searches on google for sites that
oppose home schooling. I found zilch. So, those of you who suggested
"just use google" ... where IS there any information that suggests home
schooling might not be ideal, or under what circumstances it might not
be a good idea? (And what search terms did you actually use? Mine
didn't work ...) No fair just pulling up some URLs from memory ...

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

dragonlady
July 15th 03, 10:25 PM
In article >,
(Beth Kevles) wrote:

> For what it's worth, I just ran a few searches on google for sites that
> oppose home schooling. I found zilch. So, those of you who suggested
> "just use google" ... where IS there any information that suggests home
> schooling might not be ideal, or under what circumstances it might not
> be a good idea? (And what search terms did you actually use? Mine
> didn't work ...) No fair just pulling up some URLs from memory ...
>
> --Beth Kevles
>
> http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
> Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
> advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.


You're right: it's hard to find anything. After searching briefly on
several words and combinations, I found:

http://my.voyager.net/~jayjo/homeskul.htm
A short, not particularly articulate list

http://www.cheathouse.com/essay/essay_view.php?p_essay_id=9635
An essay I couldn't read without joining a site I didn't want to join

http://www.naturalchild.com/common_objections/
A list of objections, followed by all the reasons those objections are
wrong (I think this is John Holt's site).



There were several others, but they were all pro-home schoolers who were
using the site to shoot down the objections -- or, in once case, and
amusing list of "objections" that showed public school in a very bad
light.



As I think about this more, I think that this is probably not a well
designed assignment, since in a paired debate the amount and quality of
information available to both sides ought to be roughly equal -- and
there is a LOT of information in support of homeschooling. (I say
*probably* not well designed, since for all I know there is another
objective to the assignment that is not obvious from the OP.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

==Daye==
July 15th 03, 10:31 PM
On 15 Jul 2003 20:48:32 GMT, (Beth Kevles) wrote:

>where IS there any information that suggests home
>schooling might not be ideal, or under what circumstances it might not
>be a good idea?

My MIL is a school teacher, and she has some VERY strong ideas
about why homeschooling is wrong or bad.

Perhaps the OP could interview a teacher.

--
==Daye==
Momma to Jayan
#2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

Catherine C.
July 15th 03, 10:42 PM
(Cathy Weeks) wrote in message >...
> "Kayo" > wrote in message >...
> > Hello
> > I am looking for articles, literature, or website that against
> > homeschooling. I want to find out some facts (or close to facts) that why we
> > should NOT do homeschooling. I need this for my paired-debate speech. If
> > anybody knows something about this issue, please let me know. I appreciate
> > it.
>
> You know..this is directed not at the OP, but at many of the
> respondents. As adults we come to this newsgroup all the time,
> looking for help on issues. Other parents provide URLs that they
> happen to have bookmarked as a way of being helpful. It's not hurting
> her in the least to provide a URL or two. It's a boost that can lead
> to her finding other sites on her own. And what's the difference
> between YOU saying "check out this URL" and some librarian saying "try
> this book...it might have the info you need?"
>
> And honestly, there's nothing wrong with helping a kid do her
> homework. We all talk about the problems in schooling today, and the
> fact that kids are turned off to learning. Telling someone "do your
> own homework" isn't going to help. Mostly, it's just rude, and it
> makes all of you look like a bunch of snobs who help each other only
> if they are in their exclusive club (ie. parents). Don't play a role
> in turning some kid off to homework. If you don't want to help, why
> not say nothing?
>
> Part of the research process is asking questions. I had to interview
> people for information when I was a kid. I would have been in a sorry
> state if the people I chose to interview said "do your own homework."
> I finally finished my MA in English Education last year (only took me
> 9 years to complete) and NOWHERE did anyone suggest a tactic like
> this. In fact, cooperative learning has been found to be more
> effective.
>
> To the OP. I don't have any URLs for you. But you should try the
> following resources:
>
> http://www.google.com
> http://www.ask.com
> http://altavista.com
>
> In each case do a search on the words "homeschool" and "anti" or
> "against". There are probably other key words you should try, but
> that's what I've got off the top of my head. You might also try
> "alternative schooling" and "unschooling" and "sudbury school". The
> problem you will run into is that the search engines will turn up way
> more sites than you can use, and most of them will not be useful. Once
> you've got the search down, look at the advanced search pages for
> hints how to refine your search terms to narrow it down to better
> sites.
>
> Cathy Weeks
> Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01


Very well said, Cathy!


Catherine C.
grandmother to Brendan--Sept. 22, 2002

Joni Rathbun
July 15th 03, 11:02 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, dragonlady wrote:

> In article >,
> (Beth Kevles) wrote:
>
> > For what it's worth, I just ran a few searches on google for sites that
> > oppose home schooling. I found zilch. So, those of you who suggested
> > "just use google" ... where IS there any information that suggests home
> > schooling might not be ideal, or under what circumstances it might not
> > be a good idea? (And what search terms did you actually use? Mine
> > didn't work ...) No fair just pulling up some URLs from memory ...
> >
> > --Beth Kevles
> >
> > http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
> > Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
> > advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
>
>
> You're right: it's hard to find anything. After searching briefly on
> several words and combinations, I found:
>
> http://my.voyager.net/~jayjo/homeskul.htm
> A short, not particularly articulate list
>
> http://www.cheathouse.com/essay/essay_view.php?p_essay_id=9635
> An essay I couldn't read without joining a site I didn't want to join
>
> http://www.naturalchild.com/common_objections/
> A list of objections, followed by all the reasons those objections are
> wrong (I think this is John Holt's site).
>

I tried a couple off the wall searches including "homeschooling is bad"
and "home schooling is bad." Found one article I'd use:

"Educators Critize Homeschooling"
http://family.go.com/raisingkids/learn/school/feature/dony119concerns/dony119concerns.html

If this is a h.s. assignment, I'd head to the h.s. library. Current and
controversial issues are usually "often assigned" topics in school and
high school libraries in those schools tend to stock a lot of resources.
We have three or four series of books with titles focusing on a wide
range of topics... series such as "Opposing Viewpoints" which give
both sides of an issue. They're designed for assignments like this.

I'd also find the librarian at school or the public library and
get access to the databases. I've found a couple of useful journal
articles via EBSCO (periodicals) so far.

I'm a homeschooling fan and have homeschooled in the past but my one
concern I'm finding little on. Well, nothing so far. There's plenty
of info on the related issues... assessment and learning. But I'm
not seeing my slant connected to homeschooling. I could do it but
it wouldn't be a pre-grad school assignment!

==Daye==
July 16th 03, 12:05 AM
On 15 Jul 2003 23:06:11 GMT, (Beth Kevles) wrote:

>you ferret out the people who merely SAY they're homeschooling, but are
>really abusing the concept?

I am not sure it is that easy. I have known parents who said
they were homeschooling, but they were actually too
drunk/stoned/lazy to get their kids to school.

However, I know teachers who abuse their jobs. They don't teach.
They can't teach. Students aren't learning.

You have examples of "the bad" on both sides.

--
==Daye==
Momma to Jayan
#2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

Beth Kevles
July 16th 03, 12:06 AM
Hi, again --

On thinking again about homeschooling (NOT something I personally have
the energy for, but I've seen excellent results from friends who do it)
my major concern would not be about the average homeschooler, but how do
you ferret out the people who merely SAY they're homeschooling, but are
really abusing the concept? (Ie, either not educating their children,
or teaching them abhorrent things such as how evil their country is and
how to be a terrorist, or neglecting or abusing their children and using
the cover of "homeschooling" to hide their children from contact with
the outside world.)

I guess I'd also be concerned about the well-intentioned parent who
decides to homeschool but does a very poor job of it. If such a parent
(for reasons of pride or prejudice etc.) continues to try and make a
hash of it, how do you help out the parent AND child?

The homeschoolers I know personally have thought out their reasons for
homeschooling quite well I love how well their kids are doing, both
academically and otherwise. But I only know a few.

Are there any good stats. on how homeschool children once they leave the
homeschool? I know about the ones that excel; they get national press
when they win spelling bees, go to college, etc. But what does
"average" look like? And how do you tell when a homeschool situation
isn't working out? I mean, from the outside? How do you study the poor
homeschooling situations?

Any thoughts (that aren't merely knee-jerk supports of homeschooling)
would be welcome.

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

Donna Metler
July 16th 03, 12:17 AM
"==Daye==" > wrote in message
...
> On 15 Jul 2003 23:06:11 GMT, (Beth Kevles) wrote:
>
> >you ferret out the people who merely SAY they're homeschooling, but are
> >really abusing the concept?
>
> I am not sure it is that easy. I have known parents who said
> they were homeschooling, but they were actually too
> drunk/stoned/lazy to get their kids to school.
>
> However, I know teachers who abuse their jobs. They don't teach.
> They can't teach. Students aren't learning.
>
However, there is more oversight and accountability of teachers. Before
tenure, you are evaluated several times a year-and can be terminated at any
time. After tenure, you're still evaluated regularly, and can be removed if
problems arise. In most states, if students fail the state test, the teacher
is held accountable.


Similarly, IF homeschooling parents are required to file an educational plan
and to demonstrate progress in some way, it is unlikely that parents will
homeschool for the wrong reasons for long. This doesn't mean the state
restricts homeschooling, simply that the onus is on the parent to
demonstrate that they are doing something.

If there is accountability in place, and the measures are followed, there
will be much less abuse. If you have no accountability, then you are much
more likely to see abuse of the system.

And when school districts suggest to parents that they list their child as
homeschooled to get around the truancy laws (as has happened some here with
high school kids who have dropped out, but are too young to do so legally,
since the parent can be legally charged if the child doesn't attend) it
gives BOTH systems a bad name!

> You have examples of "the bad" on both sides.
>
> --
> ==Daye==
> Momma to Jayan
> #2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
> E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

Michelle J. Haines
July 16th 03, 12:42 AM
In article >,
says...
>
> Hi, again --
>
> On thinking again about homeschooling (NOT something I personally have
> the energy for, but I've seen excellent results from friends who do it)
> my major concern would not be about the average homeschooler, but how do
> you ferret out the people who merely SAY they're homeschooling, but are
> really abusing the concept?

Each state has their own homeschooling requirements. You could
certainly get away with that in some states, couldn't in others.
Texas doesn't require any reporting at all, and Wyoming is pretty
lax. Other states require standardized testing, portfolios, and
regular semester visits from someone inspecting the homeschooling
stuff.

> I guess I'd also be concerned about the well-intentioned parent who
> decides to homeschool but does a very poor job of it. If such a parent
> (for reasons of pride or prejudice etc.) continues to try and make a
> hash of it, how do you help out the parent AND child?

Some states require homeschoolers to put the kids back in school if
they fall below an arbitrary line on standardized tests. And, of
course, you can ask the same questions about public schools, which
also often do a very poor job of educating kids.

> Are there any good stats. on how homeschool children once they leave the
> homeschool? I know about the ones that excel; they get national press
> when they win spelling bees, go to college, etc. But what does
> "average" look like? And how do you tell when a homeschool situation
> isn't working out? I mean, from the outside? How do you study the poor
> homeschooling situations?

The average homeschooler does better by most standards than the
average public schooler, but there are probably a lot of things that
should be factored out before you can state for sure what's better
and what's not.

Michelle
Flutist
--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00)
Zachary Mitchell (01/12/94, began fostering 09/05/01)
Theona Alexis (06/03/03)

toto
July 16th 03, 01:21 AM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:42:51 -0600, Michelle J. Haines
> wrote:

>> Hi, again --
>>
>> On thinking again about homeschooling (NOT something I personally have
>> the energy for, but I've seen excellent results from friends who do it)
>> my major concern would not be about the average homeschooler, but how do
>> you ferret out the people who merely SAY they're homeschooling, but are
>> really abusing the concept?
>
>Each state has their own homeschooling requirements. You could
>certainly get away with that in some states, couldn't in others.
>Texas doesn't require any reporting at all, and Wyoming is pretty
>lax. Other states require standardized testing, portfolios, and
>regular semester visits from someone inspecting the homeschooling
>stuff.

Homeschoolers actively fight having requirements though.

While I don't know how you ferret them out, I know some examples
from people I met online. I am in contact with both of these people
offline as well now, though we met online. Most of the homeschooled
kids I have met are doing well, bright and happy, but..

One young man (now 23), was *homeschooled* after he was
had problems in 3rd grade. He never finished his education.
He is very bright, but hasn't got his GED and cannot find a job.
He was pulled out of school in Georgia, moved around, never
was reregistered, never did any schooling beyond what he
learned online after he was pulled out, though his mom told
the authorities in Georgia and in Florida that she was
homeschooling him.

Another young girl (now 13), was homeschooled in
Colorado - unfortunately, this was a situation where she was
being abused not schooled - her parents are now in jail and
she is in school. Again, she is very bright, but has a lot of
gaps in her knowledge base and her learning because she
was being trained to be obedient and not to question
anyrhing her father told her. And because of the abuse, she
is not able to function well in social situations.

I am sure these are exceptions to the rule. Homeschooling
is not a bad thing in general, but it can be *used* to cover a
myriad of sins.

The other thing to remember is that some children begin to
be homeschooled and when the parents fail at it, the child
comes back into the public school system with no penalty,
but well behind his peers. Several of my teacher friends
have encountered this problem.




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

H Schinske
July 16th 03, 01:22 AM
>
>For what it's worth, I just ran a few searches on google for sites that
>oppose home schooling. I found zilch. So, those of you who suggested
>"just use google" ... where IS there any information that suggests home
>schooling might not be ideal, or under what circumstances it might not
>be a good idea?

Did you see my post on how to figure this out from *pro*-homeschooling sites?
It's really not that tough. I should think it is *exactly* the kind of practice
that someone taking debate really needs, and very likely is one reason why this
topic was chosen.

--Helen

Cathy Weeks
July 16th 03, 02:20 AM
Michelle J. Haines > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> > Part of the research process is asking questions. I had to interview
> > people for information when I was a kid. I would have been in a sorry
> > state if the people I chose to interview said "do your own homework."
>
> And you know what? If she had asked to interview us, I'm sure she
> would have gotten some enthusiastic responses. She didn't ask for
> that. She asked us to do her basic research for her -- telling her
> were to find articles, what books she should read, etc. She can do
> that research just as well as the rest of us.

If you don't want to be helpful to her, why did you post anything?

Think about how you would feel, right now, if you are having a
difficulty with one of your little ones, and the response from the net
was "go to the library, and do your own research!" I doubt you'd feel
good.

And if she had posed as a parent...say, "my husband and I are at odds
about homeschooling, and I'd like URLS both for and against it" we
would have jumped all over ourselves to help. Same info, different
way to request it. Her mistake was letting parents know she was doing
homework. Poor kid. Honesty was her downfall.

And honestly, getting some URLs and titles doesn't remove the bulk of
the work. She still has to read it, and gather the info into a
coherent speech. AND providing a piddly URL will show her how the web
is connected. One Url can lead her to many others.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Marion Baumgarten
July 16th 03, 02:38 AM
Joni Rathbun > wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jul 2003, dragonlady wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > (Beth Kevles) wrote:
> >
> > > For what it's worth, I just ran a few searches on google for sites that
> > > oppose home schooling. I found zilch. So, those of you who suggested
> > > "just use google" ... where IS there any information that suggests home
> > > schooling might not be ideal, or under what circumstances it might not
> > > be a good idea? (And what search terms did you actually use? Mine
> > > didn't work ...) No fair just pulling up some URLs from memory ...
> > >
> > > --Beth Kevles
> >

I rememebr seeeing issues of Time and Newsweek in the last few years
featuring homeschoolimg- that also might be a source.

Michelle J. Haines
July 16th 03, 05:04 AM
In article >,
says...
>
> Homeschoolers actively fight having requirements though.

Yup, we do. We had a big fight here in Wyoming for the last
legislature session, as a matter of fact. They wanted to lower the
required age of schooling, institute mandatory standardized testing
and portfolios, and requiring remedial education plans for kids that
were behind. Which could make homeschooling your learning disabled
children rather difficult.

> One young man (now 23), was *homeschooled* after he was
> had problems in 3rd grade. He never finished his education.
> He is very bright, but hasn't got his GED and cannot find a job.
> He was pulled out of school in Georgia, moved around, never
> was reregistered, never did any schooling beyond what he
> learned online after he was pulled out, though his mom told
> the authorities in Georgia and in Florida that she was
> homeschooling him.
>
> Another young girl (now 13), was homeschooled in
> Colorado - unfortunately, this was a situation where she was
> being abused not schooled - her parents are now in jail and
> she is in school. Again, she is very bright, but has a lot of
> gaps in her knowledge base and her learning because she
> was being trained to be obedient and not to question
> anyrhing her father told her. And because of the abuse, she
> is not able to function well in social situations.

You can find very similar cases of both kinds in public schools. Any
system can be abused.

> The other thing to remember is that some children begin to
> be homeschooled and when the parents fail at it, the child
> comes back into the public school system with no penalty,
> but well behind his peers. Several of my teacher friends
> have encountered this problem.

Yes. My MIL harps about it all the time. But kids come to new
schools way behind when transferring from other public schools, too.

Michelle
Flutist

--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00)
Zachary Mitchell (01/12/94, began fostering 09/05/01)
Theona Alexis (06/03/03)

==Daye==
July 16th 03, 05:06 AM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:04:59 -0600, Michelle J. Haines
> wrote:

>But kids come to new
>schools way behind when transferring from other public schools, too.

I had a friend in Texas who transferred to our public school from
another state. She was VERY, VERY far behind us. It wasn't her
fault. She was a straight A student at her old school. Her old
school just wasn't as advanced as ours.

--
==Daye==
Momma to Jayan
#2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

Michelle J. Haines
July 16th 03, 05:07 AM
In article >,
says...
>
> And honestly, getting some URLs and titles doesn't remove the bulk of
> the work. She still has to read it, and gather the info into a
> coherent speech. AND providing a piddly URL will show her how the web
> is connected. One Url can lead her to many others.

If she's posting the questions to Usenet, she's fairly computer savvy
as it is. A lot of adults I know say, "Huh?" when I bring up Usenet.
Isn't everything on the web, ya know?

And other parents aren't being graded on her research and
presentation skills. She is.

Michelle
Flutist

--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00)
Zachary Mitchell (01/12/94, began fostering 09/05/01)
Theona Alexis (06/03/03)

kereru
July 16th 03, 10:18 AM
"Michelle J. Haines" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> > And honestly, getting some URLs and titles doesn't remove the bulk of
> > the work. She still has to read it, and gather the info into a
> > coherent speech. AND providing a piddly URL will show her how the web
> > is connected. One Url can lead her to many others.
>
> If she's posting the questions to Usenet, she's fairly computer savvy
> as it is. A lot of adults I know say, "Huh?" when I bring up Usenet.
> Isn't everything on the web, ya know?
>
> And other parents aren't being graded on her research and
> presentation skills. She is.

Why isn't asking on here considered a viable research tool?

Judy

Beth Kevles
July 16th 03, 10:55 AM
Hi, again -

Michelle, "arguments against homeschooling" isn't a search term I'd have
thought of, but it worked! It led me to a paper by Robert Reich (which
I couldn't even manage to get the abstract of online, but I know I could
find it in print if I try hard enough) and the review of a book that
looked useful.

I still haven't located any statistics about how well homeschool kids do
and under what circumstances homeschooling works/doesn't work. Plenty
of anecdotes, but no data. Since this is strictly an intellectual
exercise for me I'll probably stop my research here. (I just wanted to
know what that kid could, in fact, have found online. And the short
answer is, it's NOT at all obvious how to find anything that way. But
it can be done.)

Thanks, all, for your thoughts.
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

Rosalie B.
July 16th 03, 12:51 PM
x-no-archive:yes ==Daye== > wrote:

>On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:04:59 -0600, Michelle J. Haines
> wrote:
>
>>But kids come to new
>>schools way behind when transferring from other public schools, too.
>
>I had a friend in Texas who transferred to our public school from
>another state. She was VERY, VERY far behind us. It wasn't her
>fault. She was a straight A student at her old school. Her old
>school just wasn't as advanced as ours.

This is often a problem for kids that transfer, especially between
countries. My dd is afraid that her son transferring to MD from
England will be completely behind in stuff that we take for granted
that the kids absorb as part of our culture - like the story about the
Pilgrims and Plymouth Rock, our Civil War etc. Knowing about Guy
Fawkes Day or the War of the Roses isn't the same. He's also
unpracticed in the sports we customarily have here, although we do
have more soccer football now.

My dds had the most problem transferring between Maryland and RI. And
it wasn't exactly because one school was more advanced. The 2nd
grader was already doing cursive and RI didn't start until 3rd grade
and they insisted that she print. The 4th grader was behind in long
division but she had to give up instrumental music because RI didn't
have it until 7th grade, where MD started in 3rd grade. But the RI
school had a gymnastics program (which MD doesn't).




grandma Rosalie

iphigenia
July 16th 03, 02:55 PM
Rosalie B. wrote:
>>
>> My dd is afraid that her son transferring to MD from
>> England will be completely behind in stuff that we take for granted
>> that the kids absorb as part of our culture - like the story about
>> the Pilgrims and Plymouth Rock, our Civil War etc.

Oh, well, a lot of what we learned in school about those things was wildly
inaccurate in any case ; )

But on the plus side, he'll probably be pretty popular, with the girls,
anyway. Accent and all, y'know.


--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net

Belphoebe
July 16th 03, 03:10 PM
"Joni Rathbun" > wrote in message

> If this is a h.s. assignment, I'd head to the h.s. library. Current and
> controversial issues are usually "often assigned" topics in school and
> high school libraries in those schools tend to stock a lot of resources.

[ . . . ]

I've taught public speaking to college freshmen, and it's suprised me that
every semester, someone wants to do a debate or a persuasive speech on
homeschooling. It hadn't occurred to me that this might be because it's a
standard high-school debate topic (along with euthanasia, capital
punishment, drug testing, etc. etc.), and therefore one for which students
are inclined to recycle their hs speeches/debates.*

Out of curiosity, I just did a Google search with:

"high school" debate homeschooling

.. . . and got 5,800 hits. Yeah, I guess this must have joined the ranks of
standard topics:

http://tinyurl.com/h3s6

Belphoebe

* Recycling their hs assignments is considered "academic dishonesty," but I
guess they figure they can get away with it. :(

toto
July 16th 03, 03:32 PM
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 21:18:09 +1200, "kereru" >
wrote:

>Why isn't asking on here considered a viable research tool?
>
>Judy

Because on usenet, you are mostly going to get only opinions
and most of the actual scholarly research on any field is not online
through the usual search engines at any rate. Libraries often
provide access to much more serious research and would be
a much better place for him/her to look.

Usenet, as much as I love the atmosphere is not going to get
you much in the way of ways to prove your arguments.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

H Schinske
July 16th 03, 04:52 PM
Belphoebe wrote:

>I've taught public speaking to college freshmen, and it's surprised me that
>every semester, someone wants to do a debate or a persuasive speech on
>homeschooling. It hadn't occurred to me that this might be because it's a
>standard high-school debate topic

I suspect that if there is any standard textbook on debate (I've never taken
it, I have no idea if there are textbooks), there are probably a bunch of
suggested topics, and this might be one.

By the way, one reason the OP's original post smelled of cheating is that they
seemed to be looking for some pre-made laundry list of reasons why
homeschooling wasn't a great idea, rather than having to think. Hence my
suggestion of looking at previous defenses and deducing what the defense was
against. Did that make any sense to you?

--Helen

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 06:43 PM
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, newfy wrote:

>
> "kereru" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Why isn't asking on here considered a viable research tool?
> >
> > Judy
>
> Because the OP wasn't asking for our opinions on the topic. IIRC, he/she
> asked for urls and links to sites that would have anti hs info.

No she didn't. She mentioned she was looking for literature and websites
then added, "If anybody knows something about this issue, please let me know."

I see nothing in her comments that suggest she is unwilling to search on
her own. I suspect she had already begun the search (which, it
turns out, is not as simple a search as it appears). Now ideally,
an experienced soul would have said, "I have DONE X, Y, and Z but
I'd also like to hear thoughts from people who have a particular
interest in this subject..." but it's my experience that people
learn how to make these requests thru trial and error.

I belong to a listserv of over 14,000 librarians. Every now and
then even one of them will make an even less sophisticated request
for information and, invariably, everyone will jump all over
them for not doing any searching on their own (when, of course,
they have). I suspect these people learn a valuable lesson
tho and that is how to properly frame an info-request question:
you have to at least tell you audience what it is you have
already done or they will assume you haven't done anything.

All that said, it's perfectly legitimate to query folks who
might work in or have a special interest in a particular topic.
If she's a young student as she appears, chances are she's
never been engaged in a conversation about this particular
topic and isn't familiar with the common points most of
us have heard numerous times (e.g. socialization). If
for no other reason, sometimes talking to others can provide
a person with a few keywords they hadn't come up with on
their own, keywords they can use to aid their search.

I don't think her request was out of line at all but I suspect
she learned a whole lot more about human nature than she
learned about homeschooling.

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 06:54 PM
On 16 Jul 2003, H Schinske wrote:


> By the way, one reason the OP's original post smelled of cheating is that they
> seemed to be looking for some pre-made laundry list of reasons why
> homeschooling wasn't a great idea, rather than having to think.

I didn't get that from her post at all.

> Hence my
> suggestion of looking at previous defenses and deducing what the defense was
> against. Did that make any sense to you?

That makes perfect sence but depending upon the student's age and
experience, it could be more difficult for them than you think. Some
will be able to deal with text on that level; for others, it will
be a skill that has to be taught. And if it's a topic a student
truly has no background info in, "defenses" may not be immediately
obvious. Homeschooling would be a pretty easy topic for most of
us. But I think about a silly Einstein hoax debate going on
elsewhere across the net. I simply don't have enough knowledge
in physics, etc., to recognize one side from the other at times.
Someone will say something declarative and I'll think to myself,
"Oh dear, was he proving or disproving the other guy's point?"

Karen
July 16th 03, 07:03 PM
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:11:44 +1200, "kereru" >
wrote:

>
>When I was at school/university asking someone who knows more than you was
>considered a reasonable step in carrying out research. How do you lot know
>that the OP hasn't already done a Google search, been to the library etc..
>How do we know that he/she isn't just looking for more info on top of that?
>
>Isn't asking a group of people who are guaranteed to be involved in
>schooling (parents) a reasonable option? After all we try to encourage kids
>to explore many avenues. Not everything is available on google.


Agreed. I didn't see anything wrong with making a request for
information to a group of people who are likely to have done some
thinking or researching on the subject. In fact, I thought the OP was
quite resourceful in coming here looking for info - and who are we to
immediately assume s/he hasn't done his/her own research? Either this
is a starting place, or a place to get more detailed recommendations
and referrals for additional information.

Why all the hostility? Just because this kid is presenting a debate on
the topic? I'd hate to imagine my child being treated in such a nasty
fashion by a group of other parents ...

Karen
--
The Orange Cat: Calendar, advice & tips for busy families in the San Gabriel Valley
www.theorangecat.org

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 07:05 PM
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, iphigenia wrote:

> Rosalie B. wrote:
> >>
> >> My dd is afraid that her son transferring to MD from
> >> England will be completely behind in stuff that we take for granted
> >> that the kids absorb as part of our culture - like the story about
> >> the Pilgrims and Plymouth Rock, our Civil War etc.
>
> Oh, well, a lot of what we learned in school about those things was wildly
> inaccurate in any case ; )
>

It is absolutely astounding how many people's knowledge of US history
begins and ends with those second grade lessons on the Pilgrims. I
had a woman recently just jump all over me for suggesting the
Pilgrims weren't the first to arrive after Columbus. She simply
could not get her head around the fact that even the first ship-
load of slaves arrived before the Pilgrims. Uh huh, no way.

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 07:10 PM
On 16 Jul 2003, Beth Kevles wrote:

>
> Hi, again -
>
> Michelle, "arguments against homeschooling" isn't a search term I'd have
> thought of, but it worked! It led me to a paper by Robert Reich (which
> I couldn't even manage to get the abstract of online, but I know I could
> find it in print if I try hard enough) and the review of a book that
> looked useful.
>
> I still haven't located any statistics about how well homeschool kids do
> and under what circumstances homeschooling works/doesn't work. Plenty
> of anecdotes, but no data.

Here you go:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/Rudner3.asp


This is one I've had tucked away for a long time, not something
I just found.

H Schinske
July 16th 03, 07:17 PM
Karen ) wrote:

>Why all the hostility? Just because this kid is presenting a debate on
>the topic? I'd hate to imagine my child being treated in such a nasty
>fashion by a group of other parents

It's due to seeing a lot of help-me-with-my-homework requests over the years.
One gets very cynical.

--Helen

H Schinske
July 16th 03, 07:23 PM
wrote:

>That makes perfect sense but depending upon the student's age and
>experience, it could be more difficult for them than you think. Some
>will be able to deal with text on that level; for others, it will
>be a skill that has to be taught.

I wouldn't think anyone who was *not* able to handle that kind of
interpretation was ready for a debate class.

--Helen

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 07:34 PM
On 16 Jul 2003, H Schinske wrote:

> wrote:
>
> >That makes perfect sense but depending upon the student's age and
> >experience, it could be more difficult for them than you think. Some
> >will be able to deal with text on that level; for others, it will
> >be a skill that has to be taught.
>
> I wouldn't think anyone who was *not* able to handle that kind of
> interpretation was ready for a debate class.
>

There were no pre-requisites for debate when I was a kid.
Perhaps that's changed.

H Schinske
July 16th 03, 07:50 PM
I wrote:

>> I wouldn't think anyone who was *not* able to handle that kind of
>> interpretation was ready for a debate class.
>>
and Joni Rathbun ) responded:
>
>There were no pre-requisites for debate when I was a kid.
>Perhaps that's changed.

Well, I didn't mean a formal prerequisite sort of situation. Aren't debate
classes usually at least late middle school and more often high school? I'd be
seriously worried about a kid who couldn't use such a basic interpretation
technique by then.

--Helen

newfy
July 16th 03, 08:11 PM
"kereru" > wrote in message
...

> Why isn't asking on here considered a viable research tool?
>
> Judy

Because the OP wasn't asking for our opinions on the topic. IIRC, he/she
asked for urls and links to sites that would have anti hs info. Not very
hard for the OP to find on their own.

JennP.

Jarkat2002
July 16th 03, 08:15 PM
>Agreed. I didn't see anything wrong with making a request for
>information to a group of people who are likely to have done some
>thinking or researching on the subject. In fact, I thought the OP was
>quite resourceful in coming here looking for info - and who are we to
>immediately assume s/he hasn't done his/her own research? Either this
>is a starting place, or a place to get more detailed recommendations
>and referrals for additional information.
>
>Why all the hostility? Just because this kid is presenting a debate on
>the topic? I'd hate to imagine my child being treated in such a nasty
>fashion by a group of other parents ...
>
>Karen
>--

I agree Karen. 100%.
The hostillity is way over the top IMO. Makes me wonder why people are so
afraid of someone looking for and finding facts.
Oh well
TETO.
~Kat


Planet Claire has pink air
All the trees are red
No one ever dies there
No one has a head

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 08:26 PM
On 16 Jul 2003, H Schinske wrote:

> I wrote:
>
> >> I wouldn't think anyone who was *not* able to handle that kind of
> >> interpretation was ready for a debate class.
> >>
> and Joni Rathbun ) responded:
> >
> >There were no pre-requisites for debate when I was a kid.
> >Perhaps that's changed.
>
> Well, I didn't mean a formal prerequisite sort of situation. Aren't debate
> classes usually at least late middle school and more often high school? I'd be
> seriously worried about a kid who couldn't use such a basic interpretation
> technique by then.
>

Then you'd have to worry about half of our h.s. student body. One thing
I've learned is that often what seems obvious to me does not seem obvious
to them. A lot of our kids are not very sophisticated readers.

I shouldn't insist on being contrary tho. I would imagine this girl
is not in the same shape as a lot of our students. Then again, I didn't
see her request as asking for links to the things she needed. I saw
it as asking for comments from people who might know something about
the topic ---> developing some background info. When you're new to
a topic, the top isn't always distinguisable from the bottom.

Belphoebe
July 16th 03, 08:40 PM
"Joni Rathbun" > wrote in message
...
>
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, Belphoebe wrote:
>
> >
> > "Joni Rathbun" > wrote in message
> >
> > . . . and got 5,800 hits. Yeah, I guess this must have joined the ranks
of
> > standard topics:
> >
>
> I've never actually had a student choose this as their topic but I know
> we have at least two books on our shelves that explore both sides
> of the issue. So if the topic comes up....

Based on conversations with other instructors, it seems to me this must be
joining the ranks with, , , ,

> Abortion and drugs

.. . . as "usual suspects."

>are by far the most popular topics at our school.

Yup--and it's easy to become weary of these!

> Teen sex probably runs a close third. The filter on our network
> at school often proves to be a barrier for that little search tho
> I do have to smile when kids come up to me to tell me they
> are looking for sex. Gives a whole new perspective to the term
> "reference interview."

Heh. :)

Belphoebe

Rosalie B.
July 16th 03, 08:45 PM
x-no-archive:yes (Jarkat2002) wrote:

>>Agreed. I didn't see anything wrong with making a request for
>>information to a group of people who are likely to have done some
>>thinking or researching on the subject. In fact, I thought the OP was
>>quite resourceful in coming here looking for info - and who are we to
>>immediately assume s/he hasn't done his/her own research? Either this
>>is a starting place, or a place to get more detailed recommendations
>>and referrals for additional information.
>>
>>Why all the hostility? Just because this kid is presenting a debate on
>>the topic? I'd hate to imagine my child being treated in such a nasty
>>fashion by a group of other parents ...
>>
>>Karen
>>--
>
>I agree Karen. 100%.
>The hostillity is way over the top IMO. Makes me wonder why people are so
>afraid of someone looking for and finding facts.
>Oh well
>TETO.

The problem is that a lot of folks come to this group with some kind
of agenda. And some people who really ought to know better come and
ask for experiences with (for instance) injuries on playground
equipment or bad experiences with CPC. And SOME of these people
haven't done their homework and DO expect it to be done for them. Not
just here, but in other venues. And people get jaded and/or cynical.

So IMHO the hostility is understandable. And I don't think it has
anything to do with being afraid of finding facts.



grandma Rosalie

==Daye==
July 16th 03, 09:19 PM
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:03:28 -0700, Karen >
wrote:

>Why all the hostility? Just because this kid is presenting a debate on
>the topic? I'd hate to imagine my child being treated in such a nasty
>fashion by a group of other parents ...

For the record, I wasn't hostile to the kid. I even provided a
search in google that could help.

--
==Daye==
Momma to Jayan
#2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

dragonlady
July 16th 03, 09:39 PM
In article >,
(Jarkat2002) wrote:

> >Agreed. I didn't see anything wrong with making a request for
> >information to a group of people who are likely to have done some
> >thinking or researching on the subject. In fact, I thought the OP was
> >quite resourceful in coming here looking for info - and who are we to
> >immediately assume s/he hasn't done his/her own research? Either this
> >is a starting place, or a place to get more detailed recommendations
> >and referrals for additional information.
> >
> >Why all the hostility? Just because this kid is presenting a debate on
> >the topic? I'd hate to imagine my child being treated in such a nasty
> >fashion by a group of other parents ...
> >
> >Karen
> >--
>
> I agree Karen. 100%.
> The hostillity is way over the top IMO. Makes me wonder why people are so
> afraid of someone looking for and finding facts.
> Oh well
> TETO.
> ~Kat
>
>
> Planet Claire has pink air
> All the trees are red
> No one ever dies there
> No one has a head

I don't think it was all THAT hostile; however, as others have pointed
out, we have been asked to essentially DO kids' homework in the past on
this newsgroup, so I think the reaction was to both the unfortunate
wording of the request and to past requests, rather than to the topic
itself.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady
July 16th 03, 09:45 PM
In article >,
==Daye== > wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:34:26 -0700, Joni Rathbun
> > wrote:
>
> >There were no pre-requisites for debate when I was a kid.
> >Perhaps that's changed.
>
> I graduated over 10 years ago. We have pre-requisites and kids
> were selected to be on the debate team. It wasn't just a class
> you could sign up for. If you wanted to do debate, you have to
> take Intro to Speech. Then you let it be known that you wanted
> to be in Debate. If you were good enough, you got to take the
> class.
>
> --
> ==Daye==
> Momma to Jayan
> #2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
> E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

This wasn't for a debate team; rather it sounded like it was for an
assignment, possibly in an English class. Around here, at least, kids
DO get that sort of assignment in some English classes; it involves
doing some research and organizing a presentation. I don't think there
is a Speech class available in my kids' high schools.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 10:52 PM
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, ==Daye== wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:34:26 -0700, Joni Rathbun
> > wrote:
>
> >There were no pre-requisites for debate when I was a kid.
> >Perhaps that's changed.
>
> I graduated over 10 years ago. We have pre-requisites and kids
> were selected to be on the debate team. It wasn't just a class
> you could sign up for. If you wanted to do debate, you have to
> take Intro to Speech. Then you let it be known that you wanted
> to be in Debate. If you were good enough, you got to take the
> class.
>

Around here it is a club and not even a class.

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 11:30 PM
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, toypup wrote:

>
> "Joni Rathbun" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, iphigenia wrote:
> >
> > > Rosalie B. wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> My dd is afraid that her son transferring to MD from
> > > >> England will be completely behind in stuff that we take for granted
> > > >> that the kids absorb as part of our culture - like the story about
> > > >> the Pilgrims and Plymouth Rock, our Civil War etc.
> > >
> > > Oh, well, a lot of what we learned in school about those things was
> wildly
> > > inaccurate in any case ; )
> > >
> >
> > It is absolutely astounding how many people's knowledge of US history
> > begins and ends with those second grade lessons on the Pilgrims. I
> > had a woman recently just jump all over me for suggesting the
> > Pilgrims weren't the first to arrive after Columbus. She simply
> > could not get her head around the fact that even the first ship-
> > load of slaves arrived before the Pilgrims. Uh huh, no way.
>
> What country enslaved them and who did the slaves end up working for?
>


Groliers New Book of Knowledge
The slave trade to the English settlements in the New World began in 1619
when about 20 Africans were sold by a Dutch trader in Jamestown, Virginia.
Slavery in the English colonies was, at first, a system of indentured
servitude. After working for a master for not more than 21 years, the
slave was freed. But by 1663, both Virginia and Maryland had laws stating
that "all Negroes or other slaves, [and#93; all Negroes to be hereafter
imported, shall serve durante vita"--for the rest of their lives. Under
the new form of slavery, the children born to slaves also became the
master's chattel, or personal property.


(About the time before the word "slavery" was on the books it was said...
Indication by surviving wills, inventories, deeds and other documents
that in some instances it was considered "customary practice to hold some
Negroes in a form of life service.")


Also note "indentured servant" is used to refer to both those who
voluntarily sold their services for passage and those who were forcably
kidnapped and sold against their will.

Joni Rathbun
July 16th 03, 11:33 PM
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, dragonlady wrote:

> In article >,
> ==Daye== > wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 11:34:26 -0700, Joni Rathbun
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >There were no pre-requisites for debate when I was a kid.
> > >Perhaps that's changed.
> >
> > I graduated over 10 years ago. We have pre-requisites and kids
> > were selected to be on the debate team. It wasn't just a class
> > you could sign up for. If you wanted to do debate, you have to
> > take Intro to Speech. Then you let it be known that you wanted
> > to be in Debate. If you were good enough, you got to take the
> > class.
> >
> > --
> > ==Daye==
> > Momma to Jayan
> > #2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
> > E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au
>
> This wasn't for a debate team; rather it sounded like it was for an
> assignment, possibly in an English class. Around here, at least, kids
> DO get that sort of assignment in some English classes; it involves
> doing some research and organizing a presentation. I don't think there
> is a Speech class available in my kids' high schools.

Here is the original post:

"Hello
I am looking for articles, literature, or website that against
homeschooling. I want to find out some facts (or close to facts) that why
we should NOT do homeschooling. I need this for my paired-debate speech.
Ifanybody knows something about this issue, please let me know. I
appreciate it."

Michelle J. Haines
July 17th 03, 02:38 AM
In article >,
says...
> Karen ) wrote:
>
> >Why all the hostility? Just because this kid is presenting a debate on
> >the topic? I'd hate to imagine my child being treated in such a nasty
> >fashion by a group of other parents
>
> It's due to seeing a lot of help-me-with-my-homework requests over the years.
> One gets very cynical.

Yup.

Michelle
Flutist

--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00)
Zachary Mitchell (01/12/94, began fostering 09/05/01)
Theona Alexis (06/03/03)

Clisby Williams
July 17th 03, 04:02 AM
Joni Rathbun wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, iphigenia wrote:
>
>
>
>>Rosalie B. wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> My dd is afraid that her son transferring to MD from
>>>>England will be completely behind in stuff that we take for granted
>>>>that the kids absorb as part of our culture - like the story about
>>>>the Pilgrims and Plymouth Rock, our Civil War etc.
>>>>
>>>>
>>Oh, well, a lot of what we learned in school about those things was wildly
>>inaccurate in any case ; )
>>
>>
>>
>
>It is absolutely astounding how many people's knowledge of US history
>begins and ends with those second grade lessons on the Pilgrims. I
>had a woman recently just jump all over me for suggesting the
>Pilgrims weren't the first to arrive after Columbus. She simply
>could not get her head around the fact that even the first ship-
>load of slaves arrived before the Pilgrims. Uh huh, no way.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Good grief, there was a Spanish settlement in what's now South Carolina
in the 1500s. (I sort of
think there were a few slaves there, too, but I'm not absolutely positive.)

Clisby

==Daye==
July 17th 03, 09:04 PM
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:41:42 -0500, Nan >
wrote:

>I also get really bothered when kids come in the library and need to
>do a project for school.... Okay, fine.
<SNIP>
>I hear, "can't you just
>find it for me?".

At my Uni, I used to tutor is several subjects. Mainly I tutored
in English because it was my strongest subject and writing essays
are easy for me. (Back then my grammar was a lot better too, but
I digress.) I would help with lots of students with their
essays. So I would sit down and try to figure out what their
subject was and what they had written, etc. I couldn't believe
the number of students who asked me, "Aren't you going to write
it for me?"

In fact, one student told me what subject to write about and
said, "I will be back in an hour to pick up my essay." As he
walked out, I told him that I wasn't writing his paper for him.
He was actually surprised that when he came back in an hour, I
had not written the paper.

--
==Daye==
Momma to Jayan
#2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au

user
July 17th 03, 09:54 PM
On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 06:04:02 +1000, ==Daye== > wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:41:42 -0500, Nan >
> wrote:
>
>>I also get really bothered when kids come in the library and need to
>>do a project for school.... Okay, fine.
><SNIP>
>>I hear, "can't you just
>>find it for me?".
>
> At my Uni, I used to tutor is several subjects. Mainly I tutored
> in English because it was my strongest subject and writing essays
> are easy for me. (Back then my grammar was a lot better too, but
> I digress.) I would help with lots of students with their
> essays. So I would sit down and try to figure out what their
> subject was and what they had written, etc. I couldn't believe
> the number of students who asked me, "Aren't you going to write
> it for me?"
>
> In fact, one student told me what subject to write about and
> said, "I will be back in an hour to pick up my essay." As he
> walked out, I told him that I wasn't writing his paper for him.
> He was actually surprised that when he came back in an hour, I
> had not written the paper.

lol. I know how you feel. Back when I was in school, I held three
lab-assistant type jobs at the same time. One in English, and
two in the general computer labs. Quite frequently, Freshmen
would come in expecting me to write their papers or do their
computer lab projects. In one case, I was in the
language lab, and spent several minutes telling one especially
clueless young man that we weren't an essay writing service.
He stormed out, and I had to go to my next job in a PC lab.
About 20 minutes later, he came in there and tried to get another
assistant to do his computer project. So I walked over and informed
him we didn't do his homework there, either. An hour later,
my shift was over, so off I go to my third job in the PC lab on
the other side of campus, sat down at the reception desk,
only to have him stroll in, take one look at me, and walk
out again.

I have honestly never seen such a look of resignation, before or
since. ;-)

- Rich

Joni Rathbun
July 17th 03, 10:02 PM
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, user wrote:

> I have honestly never seen such a look of resignation, before or
> since. ;-)

He's probably still trying to figure out where all three of you came from!

LOL

Joni Rathbun
July 17th 03, 10:07 PM
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003, Nan wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 06:04:02 +1000, ==Daye== >
> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:41:42 -0500, Nan >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>I also get really bothered when kids come in the library and need to
> >>do a project for school.... Okay, fine.
> ><SNIP>
> >>I hear, "can't you just
> >>find it for me?".
> >
> >At my Uni, I used to tutor is several subjects. Mainly I tutored
> >in English because it was my strongest subject and writing essays
> >are easy for me. (Back then my grammar was a lot better too, but
> >I digress.) I would help with lots of students with their
> >essays. So I would sit down and try to figure out what their
> >subject was and what they had written, etc. I couldn't believe
> >the number of students who asked me, "Aren't you going to write
> >it for me?"
> >
> >In fact, one student told me what subject to write about and
> >said, "I will be back in an hour to pick up my essay." As he
> >walked out, I told him that I wasn't writing his paper for him.
> >He was actually surprised that when he came back in an hour, I
> >had not written the paper.
>
> Chances are good that a lot of your students probably had parents
> doing their work for them. I see a lot of that where I work, and when
> I try to show the kids how to use the Dynix system or our online
> database, the parents tell me they're "too busy to wait for such a
> thing".
>

I'm at a high school (after years at elementary) so I've invested
a lot of time in teaching students how to use these resources!

But I know... at my current h.s. I will occasionally run into the
student who will ask for "help." When I start to run them through
the process they back away and say, "Well I'll just go to the
public library."

Little poops.

==Daye==
July 17th 03, 11:07 PM
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 20:54:31 GMT, user
> wrote:

> In one case, I was in the
>language lab, and spent several minutes telling one especially
>clueless young man that we weren't an essay writing service.

Actually, I would write papers for cash. My cost was $20 a page
(most end of the term papers were at least 5-10 pages). My
essays and papers regularly received As so I knew that I could
write an A paper for the person. However, when I quoted my
price, all of them turned me down.

--
==Daye==
Momma to Jayan
#2 EDD 11 Jan 2004
E-mail: brendana AT labyrinth DOT net DOT au