think we may have dropped a night feed!

[teapot]

This is probably tempting fate to write it down but so far so good. I
had been putting it off for ages as there was always some excuse; Moo
was teething, or had a cold. In the end I reasoned that there would
always be some excuse and I needed more than 3 hours sleep. I was
feeding him every 2 to 3 hours throughout the night. Also the 3-4am
feeds were for comfort as he never dramk particuarly entheusiastically
at that time.

I decided not to nurse him between 1.30 am and 5.30 as the 3-4am feeds
were the ones that were killing me. The first night I swapped bed
sides with his dad (we co sleep) and Moo cried for 2 hours in his dads
arms, it was grim with me holding my aching boobs feeling awful for
not comforting him. Night 2 he cried for half an hour, Night 3 a
quarter of an hour. It's 3 weeks on now and sometimes he wakes up at
4ish, sometimes has a bit of a cry (last night it as 10 minutes) but
it seems to be becuase he is trying to get comfortable and closer to
me. Once he has got into a position he likes, sometimes with his head
on my pillow, sometimes lying on me, or across the bed at a right
angle he goes straight back to sleep. He doesn't thump me, or headbut
me for milk now.

It was awful to do, but he now sleeps 5 to 7 hours straight most
nights.

Teapot and the Moo Boy, 10 mths old today

[Cheryl S.]

"teapot" > wrote in message
om...
> It was awful to do, but he now sleeps 5 to 7 hours straight most
> nights.

I am glad to hear that you are finally getting a decent stretch of
sleep! If you want, next time you want to drop a feed, a more gradual
approach is described in Ferber's book. Basically you combine
increasing the length of time between feeds by a half hour per night,
starting from 2 hours, and also decrease the length of each feeding by
one minute per night. At the end of a week the feedings are stopped.
It may result in less overall crying, or may not. Just throwing out
another idea for you to take it or leave it. :-)
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 7 months

[teapot]

"Cheryl S." > wrote in message >...
> "teapot" > wrote in message
> om...
> > It was awful to do, but he now sleeps 5 to 7 hours straight most
> > nights.
>
> I am glad to hear that you are finally getting a decent stretch of
> sleep! If you want, next time you want to drop a feed, a more gradual
> approach is described in Ferber's book. Basically you combine
> increasing the length of time between feeds by a half hour per night,
> starting from 2 hours, and also decrease the length of each feeding by
> one minute per night. At the end of a week the feedings are stopped.
> It may result in less overall crying, or may not. Just throwing out
> another idea for you to take it or leave it. :-)

I sort of tried this before but as Moo Boy didn't have a regular
nightime feed timetable it was impossible to do without teaching him
that if he yelled for half an hour he got fed. I also tried nursing
for less time but as he wasnt after the food, but comfort, it made no
difference, he still woke up.

Thanks for the post though.

teapot

[Rosie]

Cheryl S wrote:
> Basically you combine
> increasing the length of time between feeds by a half hour per night,
> starting from 2 hours, and also decrease the length of each feeding by
> one minute per night.

There is NO WAY I could work that out in the middle of the night. :)
Every night I stand in front of our clock completely unable to read it. In
the morning DH often asks me how many times DD woke up to feed and I have no
idea. I think 18 months of sleep deprivation has taken its toll!

Glad you have worked something out Teapot! Personally I think that leaving
a baby to cry safe in a loving parent's arms is the best way of doing things
sometimes.

ROSIE

[Cheryl S.]

"Rosie" > wrote in message
...
> Cheryl S wrote:
> > Basically you combine increasing the length of time
> > between feeds by a half hour per night, starting
> > from 2 hours, and also decrease the length of each
> > feeding by one minute per night.
>
> There is NO WAY I could work that out in the middle
> of the night. :) Every night I stand in front of our clock
> completely unable to read it. In the morning DH often
> asks me how many times DD woke up to feed and I
> have no idea. I think 18 months of sleep deprivation
> has taken its toll!

LOL. Believe me, I couldn't have figured it out in the middle of the
night either. I had to figure it out and write it down for myself
before going to bed. (e.g., "wait until at least 2:15 and nurse for
only 4 minutes") Of course, if you can't even *read* the clock, it is
going to make this impossible! But I'd say that means you do need to do
something to get things to change and get more sleep for yourself.
Maybe start with a two-hour block of time and increase it by a half hour
a night, rather than calculate based on the time of the last feed.
Like:
Night 1 no nursing between 12:00-2:00
Night 2 12:00-2:30
etc.
That way there's less to think about, but you would have to read the
clock. I cannot imagine putting up with that for 18 months. You are an
iron-mom! :-)
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 7 months

[Poppy]

<snip>
> Maybe start with a two-hour block of time and increase it by a half hour
> a night, rather than calculate based on the time of the last feed.
> Like:
> Night 1 no nursing between 12:00-2:00
> Night 2 12:00-2:30
> etc.

Reading this thread with great interest. We're not far behind Moo boy in
age so teapot always gets there first (phew!!). Pup is up in the night
every three hours on the dot - yet during the day he's shown that he can go
for 5hrs (if he doesn't want to feed before I have to go out).

Teapot - did he just cry himself out after the 2hours and go back to sleep?

Sadly we don't have a comfort feed session, they all seem to be
enthusiastic - do you think that makes a difference?

And Cheryl - do you just earplug for that extended half-an-hour?

We've sort of tried this but he's impossible to settle if he's left to cry -
easier after just 5 mins. I'm scared that instead of going through and
feeding and being awake for 20 mins, the whole house will be awake listening
to him crying and then still having to get up to go settle him, and probably
feed him in order to get him back to sleep so awake for even longer *sigh*

Oh he's started......

--Poppy

[teapot]

"Poppy" > wrote in message >...
> <snip>
> > Maybe start with a two-hour block of time and increase it by a half hour
> > a night, rather than calculate based on the time of the last feed.
> > Like:
> > Night 1 no nursing between 12:00-2:00
> > Night 2 12:00-2:30
> > etc.
>
> Reading this thread with great interest. We're not far behind Moo boy in
> age so teapot always gets there first (phew!!). Pup is up in the night
> every three hours on the dot - yet during the day he's shown that he can go
> for 5hrs (if he doesn't want to feed before I have to go out).
>
> Teapot - did he just cry himself out after the 2hours and go back to sleep?
>
Pretty much, I offered him some water in case he was thirsty but he
didn't really want it. It's 3.30 am now and he has just gone back to
sleep after a bum change and a cuddle but no nursing. He has got a
stinking cold though (I am up driking cough medicine) and he is
droolling again so I think there may be more teeth on the way.

teapot

[Cheryl S.]

"Poppy" > wrote in message
...
> Reading this thread with great interest. We're not far
> behind Moo boy in age so teapot always gets there first
> (phew!!). Pup is up in the night every three hours on
> the dot - yet during the day he's shown that he can go
> for 5hrs (if he doesn't want to feed before I have to go out).

Since he's already going 3 hours, I'd start the first night going a
minimum of 3.5 hours. He shouldn't be going a long stretch during the
day; you want that to occur at night. If you follow this schedule he
won't be likely to not want to feed before you go out once you're
nursing less at night.

> Teapot - did he just cry himself out after the 2hours and go
> back to sleep?
>
> Sadly we don't have a comfort feed session, they all seem
> to be enthusiastic - do you think that makes a difference?

It makes a difference in that, according to Ferber, the more you eat
during sleep time, the lower-quality sleep you get, so you wake more
fully, more often. It doesn't make a difference in how you go about
stopping it.

> And Cheryl - do you just earplug for that extended half-an-hour?

No, you go and comfort the baby verbally, pats on the back, but no
picking up and you have to be in the mindset that you are not helping
the baby go to sleep, you are just providing reassurance that you are
still nearby and will come if needed, and going in periodically also
gives you reassurance that nothing is seriously wrong. You go in after
5, then 10, then 15 minutes, then continue waiting 15 minutes between
going in until the baby falls asleep one of the times that you are out
of the room. (You can use shorter intervals if you can't bear to wait
that long, as I did, as long as they are increasing in length over time.
I went 2, 5, and 10 minutes at first.) If he is starting to quiet down
and the crying is getting intermittent, then you don't go in. Of course
this is for kids sleeping in their own bed/crib. If you're co-sleeping,
probably having someone else hold the baby as Teapot did is about the
only option.

> We've sort of tried this but he's impossible to settle if he's
> left to cry - easier after just 5 mins. I'm scared that instead
> of going through and feeding and being awake for 20 mins,
> the whole house will be awake listening to him crying and
> then still having to get up to go settle him, and probably
> feed him in order to get him back to sleep so awake for
> even longer *sigh*

I was afraid of doing it in the middle of the night because of my 3yo in
the next room. It turned out not to be a problem at all. The thing
with the Ferber method is, the purpose is for the child to establish
*new* sleep associations -- ones that are the same each and every time
he wakes up all night, so that it's easy for him to fall back to sleep.
Nursing to sleep doesn't fit that criteria for a baby that sleeps in a
crib. Ferber also says, crying is not in any way helpful on its own.
If the baby cries for an hour, but then you go in and nurse him all the
way to a sound slumber, you've gained absolutely nothing. His sleep
association will not have changed one bit. The fastest way for the baby
to form the new sleep associations is to get practice at using them. So
every time the baby is to go to sleep, is an opportunity to move toward
the new sleep association, where he goes to bed awake and falls asleep
without anyone else in the room.

It was tough, because I was so tired already, and for the first 3-4
nights, yes, he was awake for longer at 2 AM than he would have been had
I just nursed him immediately, but then the awake periods started
getting shorter, by the end of a week. The night I completely stopped
nursing at night, he was only awake briefly at 1 AM. The next two
nights, he went from 8 PM to about 5 AM without a peep (I considered 5
AM good enough and nursed him then, even though he went right back to
sleep until 7:30). That was four nights ago. Now, of course, he's
gotten a horrible cold and woke at 3:30AM two nights ago, and was up
from 2:00 to 3:00 and 5:30 to 6:15 last night. Since he needs extra
fluids while sick I've gone back to nursing him when he wakes, but once
he's better I'll follow this procedure again, if necessary. Hopefully
he'll just go back to sleeping all night on his own.

By decreasing the length of each feeding by one minute each night, it's
easier on both the baby and you. The baby gets the opportunity to shift
his eating to the daytime, and you don't get engorged. Starting from a
2 hour minimum and increasing a half hour each night, and from 7 minutes
nursing time and decreasing one minute each night, you stop completely
in one week after reaching a 5 hour minimum and 1 minute nursing time.
The book says many people don't even go all the way to that point,
because after they get down to 3 or so minutes of nursing, the baby goes
back to sleep easier without nursing at all. I wasn't that strict about
the length of nursing time TBH, though I did decrease it, just more
gradually.

Those are the main points. I could go on but this is getting too long
already. I do recommend the book because it has a lot more information
in it including a whole chapter on the physiology of sleep. The title
is _Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems_.

Just one more point - I do not believe that this causes any
psychological harm whatsoever. As my son learned his new sleep
associations, he started sleeping for so much of the time, he clearly
had been sleep deprived himself, and has become much happier and more
active while awake than he had been before doing this. Sleep is a basic
need, and it's my responsibility to help him meet that need as much as
any other.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 7 months

[Poppy]

"Cheryl S." > wrote in message
...
> It makes a difference in that, according to Ferber, the more you eat
> during sleep time, the lower-quality sleep you get, so you wake more
> fully, more often.
Oh that's interesting and seems likely

> > And Cheryl - do you just earplug for that extended half-an-hour?
>
> No, you go and comfort the baby verbally, pats on the back, but no
> picking up and you have to be in the mindset that you are not helping
> the baby go to sleep, you are just providing reassurance that you are
> still nearby and will come if needed, and going in periodically also
> gives you reassurance that nothing is seriously wrong. You go in after
> 5, then 10, then 15 minutes, then continue waiting 15 minutes between
> going in until the baby falls asleep one of the times that you are out
> of the room. (You can use shorter intervals if you can't bear to wait
> that long, as I did, as long as they are increasing in length over time.
> I went 2, 5, and 10 minutes at first.) If he is starting to quiet down
> and the crying is getting intermittent, then you don't go in. Of course
> this is for kids sleeping in their own bed/crib.
He has his own cot in his own nursery. Can't do pats on the back cos he
sleeps on his back - will strokes of his hair be OK? And do we just
reassure then go out again even if he's still crying (I think you'll say
yes)
>
> I was afraid of doing it in the middle of the night because of my 3yo in
> the next room. It turned out not to be a problem at all. The thing
> with the Ferber method is, the purpose is for the child to establish
> *new* sleep associations -- ones that are the same each and every time
> he wakes up all night, so that it's easy for him to fall back to sleep.
> Nursing to sleep doesn't fit that criteria for a baby that sleeps in a
> crib. Ferber also says, crying is not in any way helpful on its own.
> If the baby cries for an hour, but then you go in and nurse him all the
> way to a sound slumber, you've gained absolutely nothing. His sleep
> association will not have changed one bit. The fastest way for the baby
> to form the new sleep associations is to get practice at using them. So
> every time the baby is to go to sleep, is an opportunity to move toward
> the new sleep association, where he goes to bed awake and falls asleep
> without anyone else in the room.
During the day he falls asleep fine with no boob and no endless
cuddling/rocking and no-one being right next to him *sigh*

<snip>
> Just one more point - I do not believe that this causes any
> psychological harm whatsoever. As my son learned his new sleep
> associations, he started sleeping for so much of the time, he clearly
> had been sleep deprived himself, and has become much happier and more
> active while awake than he had been before doing this. Sleep is a basic
> need, and it's my responsibility to help him meet that need as much as
> any other.
OK we're gonna give it a go - I'm a bit demoralised doing sleep logs for the
NCSS

--Poppy n Pup

[Cheryl S.]

"Poppy" > wrote in message
news:JNYec.16412$4N3.12925@newsfe1-win...
> He has his own cot in his own nursery. Can't do pats on
> the back cos he sleeps on his back - will strokes of his
> hair be OK? And do we just reassure then go out again
> even if he's still crying (I think you'll say yes)

Yes, you guessed it. Patting/stroking his hair or tummy are fine. You
only stay for 2-3 minutes and then go back out even if he is still
crying, and even if the crying increases when you leave. Then start
timing the next interval. The first time I tried this, I was prepared
for the worst but he ended up falling asleep in only 15 minutes, after
two trips into his room.

> During the day he falls asleep fine with no boob and no endless
> cuddling/rocking and no-one being right next to him *sigh*

Oh, that is interesting. I would guess that this is actually very
promising for quick results with the Ferber method. He just has to
learn not to expect it at night either. Does he have a night light?
Are there any noises at night but not in the day or vice versa?
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 3, and Jaden, 7 months