Re: Spanking-related Child Fatality

[Poopie Diapers]

So based upon this story and others like it, I need to come to the
conclusion that all spanking is bad?

You sound like a Democrat.


In article >,
LaVonne Carlson > wrote:

> billy f wrote:
>
> > That poor child. I wonder what the teacher told the child to made him do
> > that? I wonder if the way his parents were raising him had something to do
> > with this. Its really hard to say for sure, because nobody really knows
> > what
> > was going through that child's mind.
>
> We'll never know for sure what the teacher said, how he was raised, or what
> the
> child was thinking. All we know is that this little boy was humiliated and
> spanked in the name of discipline, and he committed suicide.
>
> > I really don't understand why the
> > teacher was fired unless the spanking was done without the school or
> > parents
> > approval. It likely due to her pulling his pants down.
>
> This is hard to know, because the incident occurred in western China.
> Perhaps
> this treatment of schoolchildren is not permitted in western China. It is
> permitted in some US states (Texas in particular), where children can have
> their clothes removed by school officials and receive paddlings even though
> parents do not approve.
>
> > One thing that's for
> > sure is no matter what discipline method is used there is always going to
> > be
> > a small percentage that it doesn't work for.
>
> And another thing that is for sure is that while guidance and discipline
> needs
> to be individualized, no child deserves to be hit, hurt, shamed, or
> humiliated
> in the name of discipline. Children learn appropriate behavior through
> example, through love, and though non-punitive guidance strategies.
>
> > The child likely was shamed for
> > having his pants pulled down not from the spanking or even more likely from
> > something she told the him.
>
> You just said you had no idea what was going through the child's mind, and
> not
> you make assumptions. Physical assault is shaming, with or without clothes.
> Physical assault does not teach respect.
>
> > I know this is going to sound really mean, but
> > if that child was that weak minded to kill himself over something like
> > that,
> > it would have only been a matter of time before he killed himself for
> > something else that shamed him.
>
> This sounds really mean because it is really mean. It is also an ignorant
> statement. Children deserve love and care, not shame and humiliation.
> Perhaps
> "weak-minded" children, as you call the child, needs more rather than less
> sensitive guidance. This is about preventing child death, not about washing
> one's hands of the death of a little child because he was "weak minded."
> Good
> grief!
>
> > I blame the parents for not teacher there
> > child better and for possible instilling a mindset that made the child have
> > a large amount guilt for doing wrong.
>
> You know nothing about the parents, or the culture of China. Why would you
> blame the parents?
>
> >
> > When are people going to learn that things happen. You can take all of the
> > steps possible to avoid them, but sometimes bad things happen no matter how
> > they are handled.
>
> And sometimes bad things can be avoided by how things are handled.
>
> > This whole story sounds very one sided. How can anyone
> > know for sure that the spanking had anything to due with the boy drinking
> > the pesticide? Do you have a more detailed version of this story?
>
> Chris reported the story as it appeared. Another child is dead after that
> marvelous hit and shame parenting strategy that so many hold near and dear.
>
> LaVonne
>
> >
> >
> > "Chris" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Boy drinks pesticide after spanking 'shame'
> > >
> > > May 14 2003 at 05:48AM
> > >
> > > Hong Kong - A 10-year-old schoolboy in western China killed himself
> > > in shame after a teacher pulled down his trousers and spanked him in
> > > front
> > > of his classmates, a news report said on Wednesday.
> > >
> > > Teacher Zou Weiming meted out the punishment to pupil Chen Cai
> > > after
> > > accusing him of taking his son's toy at the school in Chongqing, the
> > > South
> > > China Morning Post reported.
> > >
> > > The boy killed himself that evening by drinking a tin of pesticide,
> > > the newspaper said. The teacher was fired and the incident publicised to
> > > educate other teachers. - Sapa-DPA
> > >
>

[LaVonne Carlson]

How very simplistic, "Poopie Diapers,

You have combined posts with few attributes, and somehow concluded that people who
have better ways of parenting that hitting and hurting their children must be
democrat.

Poopie Diapers, for your information, there are people of all political
affiliations that hit and hurt their children in the name of discipline. This is
not about politics, this is about parenting children.

LaVonne

Poopie Diapers wrote:

> So based upon this story and others like it, I need to come to the
> conclusion that all spanking is bad?
>
> You sound like a Democrat.
>
> In article >,
> LaVonne Carlson > wrote:
>
> > billy f wrote:
> >
> > > That poor child. I wonder what the teacher told the child to made him do
> > > that? I wonder if the way his parents were raising him had something to do
> > > with this. Its really hard to say for sure, because nobody really knows
> > > what
> > > was going through that child's mind.
> >
> > We'll never know for sure what the teacher said, how he was raised, or what
> > the
> > child was thinking. All we know is that this little boy was humiliated and
> > spanked in the name of discipline, and he committed suicide.
> >
> > > I really don't understand why the
> > > teacher was fired unless the spanking was done without the school or
> > > parents
> > > approval. It likely due to her pulling his pants down.
> >
> > This is hard to know, because the incident occurred in western China.
> > Perhaps
> > this treatment of schoolchildren is not permitted in western China. It is
> > permitted in some US states (Texas in particular), where children can have
> > their clothes removed by school officials and receive paddlings even though
> > parents do not approve.
> >
> > > One thing that's for
> > > sure is no matter what discipline method is used there is always going to
> > > be
> > > a small percentage that it doesn't work for.
> >
> > And another thing that is for sure is that while guidance and discipline
> > needs
> > to be individualized, no child deserves to be hit, hurt, shamed, or
> > humiliated
> > in the name of discipline. Children learn appropriate behavior through
> > example, through love, and though non-punitive guidance strategies.
> >
> > > The child likely was shamed for
> > > having his pants pulled down not from the spanking or even more likely from
> > > something she told the him.
> >
> > You just said you had no idea what was going through the child's mind, and
> > not
> > you make assumptions. Physical assault is shaming, with or without clothes.
> > Physical assault does not teach respect.
> >
> > > I know this is going to sound really mean, but
> > > if that child was that weak minded to kill himself over something like
> > > that,
> > > it would have only been a matter of time before he killed himself for
> > > something else that shamed him.
> >
> > This sounds really mean because it is really mean. It is also an ignorant
> > statement. Children deserve love and care, not shame and humiliation.
> > Perhaps
> > "weak-minded" children, as you call the child, needs more rather than less
> > sensitive guidance. This is about preventing child death, not about washing
> > one's hands of the death of a little child because he was "weak minded."
> > Good
> > grief!
> >
> > > I blame the parents for not teacher there
> > > child better and for possible instilling a mindset that made the child have
> > > a large amount guilt for doing wrong.
> >
> > You know nothing about the parents, or the culture of China. Why would you
> > blame the parents?
> >
> > >
> > > When are people going to learn that things happen. You can take all of the
> > > steps possible to avoid them, but sometimes bad things happen no matter how
> > > they are handled.
> >
> > And sometimes bad things can be avoided by how things are handled.
> >
> > > This whole story sounds very one sided. How can anyone
> > > know for sure that the spanking had anything to due with the boy drinking
> > > the pesticide? Do you have a more detailed version of this story?
> >
> > Chris reported the story as it appeared. Another child is dead after that
> > marvelous hit and shame parenting strategy that so many hold near and dear.
> >
> > LaVonne
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Chris" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Boy drinks pesticide after spanking 'shame'
> > > >
> > > > May 14 2003 at 05:48AM
> > > >
> > > > Hong Kong - A 10-year-old schoolboy in western China killed himself
> > > > in shame after a teacher pulled down his trousers and spanked him in
> > > > front
> > > > of his classmates, a news report said on Wednesday.
> > > >
> > > > Teacher Zou Weiming meted out the punishment to pupil Chen Cai
> > > > after
> > > > accusing him of taking his son's toy at the school in Chongqing, the
> > > > South
> > > > China Morning Post reported.
> > > >
> > > > The boy killed himself that evening by drinking a tin of pesticide,
> > > > the newspaper said. The teacher was fired and the incident publicised to
> > > > educate other teachers. - Sapa-DPA
> > > >
> >

[LaVonne Carlson]

billy f wrote:

> They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most cases
> abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
> dying.

Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept that.
And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a different
experience with spanking. You didn't die.

I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm 51
years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father transports
his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far less
chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
restrained.

My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy. She
didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.

Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.

LaVonne

[Doan]

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, LaVonne Carlson wrote:

>
>
> billy f wrote:
>
> > They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most cases
> > abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
> > dying.
>
> Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept that.
> And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a different
> experience with spanking. You didn't die.
>
LOL! Typical logic of an anti-spanking zealotS. People died in hospital
also, as well as in foster care! ;-)

> I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
> involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm 51
> years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father transports
> his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far less
> chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
> restrained.
>
> My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy. She
> didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.
>
> Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
> would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
> ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.
>
What kind of logic is that, LaVonne. NO wonder you ran away from debating
me on the studies that you brought up. Wanna give it a try, LaVonne? :-)

Doan

[billy f]

Children die from abuse not from spanking. A child can die from taking to
much medicine, but when given in the right doses it can be very helpful.
Children can die from food if it is tainted or from choking. Just because
children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is bad.
I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking. A child will
not die from three swats on the rear however a child may die from 100 swats
to the rear. Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
forms of it should be banned. Even if it spanking was banned there would
still be parents that would spank anyway. All a ban on spanking would do is
hurt those that use it properly. Your blowing this whole thing out of
proportion like so many none spankers do. You have your mind set and instead
of just letting parents that don't abuse their kids raise them according to
their culture your trying to change them to fit what you believe is right.

"LaVonne Carlson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> billy f wrote:
>
> > They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most
cases
> > abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
> > dying.
>
> Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept
that.
> And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a
different
> experience with spanking. You didn't die.
>
> I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
> involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm
51
> years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father
transports
> his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far
less
> chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
> restrained.
>
> My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy.
She
> didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.
>
> Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
> would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
> ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.
>
> LaVonne
>
>

[Frank Bloater]

The reason Lavonne never spanked her children was because her husband
did it for her.

Frank ;->


On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 19:43:09 -0500, LaVonne Carlson >
wrote:

>
>
>billy f wrote:
>
>> They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most cases
>> abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
>> dying.
>
>Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept that.
>And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a different
>experience with spanking. You didn't die.
>
>I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
>involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm 51
>years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father transports
>his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far less
>chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
>restrained.
>
>My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy. She
>didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.
>
>Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
>would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
>ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.
>
>LaVonne

[Catherine Woodgold]

"billy f" ) writes:
> Children die from abuse not from spanking.

That is simply a matter of definition. You can define
spanking to be "certain acts of striking a child, not
including any acts of striking that result in the
death of the child..."

I would consider that an unnecessarily convoluted definition.
--
Cathy

[Doan]

On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:

> "billy f" ) writes:
> > Just because
> > children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is bad.
>
> No, but I believe that all forms of spanking are counterproductive,
> for other reasons.
>
And you are entitled to your own belief, just don't force your belief
on others! ;-)

> > I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking.
>
> Ad hominem.
>
Thin-skinned! ;-)

> > Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
> > forms of it should be banned.
>
> I agree. However, there are also other reasons to ban
> spanking: to reduce the amount of violence by parents
> towards children; also to reduce the amount of violence
> committed by the children, as children or after they
> grow up. Studies show that children subjected to
> violence or spanking by their parents are more likely
> to commit crimes later on.
>
Correlation is not causation! In fact, Straus & Mouradian (1998)
found that the more non-cp used, the higher the antisocialbe behaviors.
Are you suggesting that we should ban non-cp alternatives also???

> Also, a democratic country has the option of banning
> spanking as a method of controlling abuse of spanking.
> This is not a "should", as you say, but it is an option.
>
Sure! As long as it ask the people first. Must I remind you that
90%+ of parents in the USA spanked their kids? Do you really
believe in democracy or you just don't count spanking parents? ;-)

Doan

>
> --
> Cathy
>

[Doan]

On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:

> "billy f" ) writes:
> > Children die from abuse not from spanking.
>
> That is simply a matter of definition. You can define
> spanking to be "certain acts of striking a child, not
> including any acts of striking that result in the
> death of the child..."
>
And how did the researchers of the studies you cited defined it?

> I would consider that an unnecessarily convoluted definition.

And people with common-sense would say otherwise! ;-)

Doan

[billy f]

Hi Doan
The more I read these anti spankers post the more I realize how crazy they
really are. I mean really these people seem to think that children are lab
rats. These experts take a group of kids that are spanked, a small
percentage of the 90% of kids that are. Most of the ones they choose come
from poor low income families. They study their behavior and if it varies at
all from what they want to see they brand them as being antisocial, violent
and having a lower IQ. I wonder if a little discrimination to the poor may
and the failure to include religious families may have been present . How
many of these experts do you think grew up in bad neighborhoods and
experienced first hand how bad life can be? Most if not all have lived
sheltered lives in nice neighborhoods. They sit around and analyze why
people do the things they do with a bunch of random studies. The truth is
they do not have a clue. Book smarts and street smarts are to different
things and if I had to choose one or the other for my children I would
choose street smarts. I wonder how many of our expert friends could make it
on the streets without the law there to protect them? I also wonder how many
of they have had to live in a high crime area. Children do not become
violent from being spanked they become that way from the tough neighborhoods
they grow up in. It just that due to the high stress lives the families
live, the parents own dysfunctional upbringing and the lack of education the
parents are more likely to strike out a their children. This does not
account for the parent that spank that are educated, come from a loving
religious upbringing and live in nice areas.

"Doan" > wrote in message
...
> On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>
> > "billy f" ) writes:
> > > Just because
> > > children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is
bad.
> >
> > No, but I believe that all forms of spanking are counterproductive,
> > for other reasons.
> >
> And you are entitled to your own belief, just don't force your belief
> on others! ;-)
>
> > > I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking.
> >
> > Ad hominem.
> >
> Thin-skinned! ;-)
>
> > > Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
> > > forms of it should be banned.
> >
> > I agree. However, there are also other reasons to ban
> > spanking: to reduce the amount of violence by parents
> > towards children; also to reduce the amount of violence
> > committed by the children, as children or after they
> > grow up. Studies show that children subjected to
> > violence or spanking by their parents are more likely
> > to commit crimes later on.
> >
> Correlation is not causation! In fact, Straus & Mouradian (1998)
> found that the more non-cp used, the higher the antisocialbe behaviors.
> Are you suggesting that we should ban non-cp alternatives also???
>
> > Also, a democratic country has the option of banning
> > spanking as a method of controlling abuse of spanking.
> > This is not a "should", as you say, but it is an option.
> >
> Sure! As long as it ask the people first. Must I remind you that
> 90%+ of parents in the USA spanked their kids? Do you really
> believe in democracy or you just don't count spanking parents? ;-)
>
> Doan
>
> >
> > --
> > Cathy
> >
>
>

[Fern5827]

Billy, most of em don't have kids. Chris doesn't.

His bluster is all THEORETICAL.

Never has he parented a child. Never changed an overfilled diaper--never
waited for a teen to come home so very late.

Never grieved when the kid did not make the travel soccer team, nor cry when he
missed out on his college of choice.

You see, all he does is write. And raising a child is a very different
exercise from all the theoreticals in the world.

It is one of the most humbling, challenging, exciting and scary endeavors one
can embark upon.

I advise all parents to be to love their mate.

Because any children you have will reflect that choice and either gladden your
heart or make you question your judgement.

The Prophet author states it this way:

"Your children are NOT YOUR CHILDREN. But the product of life's longing for
itself."

Be mature, informed, ready to learn, not inflexible, kind, full of love, ready
to comfort, and understanding, above all when you make the decision to have
children.

It is a life's vocation.....and a journey into the real,the practical, and the
studied.

If you have not experienced children, you really almost have no business
commenting.

We all KNOW THE BEST THEORETICAL COURSE to pursue. Ah, but it's the
permutations and daily mundanities which challenge parents and parents beliefs.

NO kid follows a textbook. They march to their own internal drummer and pay
homage to gods which may be quite different than yours.

You, Billy, reflect just what experts have spent many years studying. The
mean streets can be a DEMANDING TEACHER.

Billy observed about the fanatacism of Chris. BTW, he states he was
horrifically beaten by his apparently single Mom.

I hope he chooses to honor her for allowing him to participate in this
discussion.

>Subject: Re: Spanking-related Child Fatality
>From: "billy f"
>Date: 7/15/2003 7:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Hi Doan
>The more I read these anti spankers post the more I realize how crazy they
>really are. I mean really these people seem to think that children are lab
>rats. These experts take a group of kids that are spanked, a small
>percentage of the 90% of kids that are. Most of the ones they choose come
>from poor low income families. They study their behavior and if it varies at
>all from what they want to see they brand them as being antisocial, violent
>and having a lower IQ. I wonder if a little discrimination to the poor may
>and the failure to include religious families may have been present . How
>many of these experts do you think grew up in bad neighborhoods and
>experienced first hand how bad life can be? Most if not all have lived
>sheltered lives in nice neighborhoods. They sit around and analyze why
>people do the things they do with a bunch of random studies. The truth is
>they do not have a clue. Book smarts and street smarts are to different
>things and if I had to choose one or the other for my children I would
>choose street smarts. I wonder how many of our expert friends could make it
>on the streets without the law there to protect them? I also wonder how many
>of they have had to live in a high crime area. Children do not become
>violent from being spanked they become that way from the tough neighborhoods
>they grow up in. It just that due to the high stress lives the families
>live, the parents own dysfunctional upbringing and the lack of education the
>parents are more likely to strike out a their children. This does not
>account for the parent that spank that are educated, come from a loving
>religious upbringing and live in nice areas.
>
>"Doan" > wrote in message
...
>> On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>>
>> > "billy f" ) writes:
>> > > Just because
>> > > children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is
>bad.
>> >
>> > No, but I believe that all forms of spanking are counterproductive,
>> > for other reasons.
>> >
>> And you are entitled to your own belief, just don't force your belief
>> on others! ;-)
>>
>> > > I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking.
>> >
>> > Ad hominem.
>> >
>> Thin-skinned! ;-)
>>
>> > > Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
>> > > forms of it should be banned.
>> >
>> > I agree. However, there are also other reasons to ban
>> > spanking: to reduce the amount of violence by parents
>> > towards children; also to reduce the amount of violence
>> > committed by the children, as children or after they
>> > grow up. Studies show that children subjected to
>> > violence or spanking by their parents are more likely
>> > to commit crimes later on.
>> >
>> Correlation is not causation! In fact, Straus & Mouradian (1998)
>> found that the more non-cp used, the higher the antisocialbe behaviors.
>> Are you suggesting that we should ban non-cp alternatives also???
>>
>> > Also, a democratic country has the option of banning
>> > spanking as a method of controlling abuse of spanking.
>> > This is not a "should", as you say, but it is an option.
>> >
>> Sure! As long as it ask the people first. Must I remind you that
>> 90%+ of parents in the USA spanked their kids? Do you really
>> believe in democracy or you just don't count spanking parents? ;-)
>>
>> Doan
>>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Cathy
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Chris]

Fern5827 > wrote:
: Billy, most of em don't have kids. Chris doesn't.

That is correct.

I do not need to be a parent to be against domestic violence against
children, which includes so-called "spanking." Analogously, I do not need
to be married to be against wife-beating.

: His bluster is all THEORETICAL.

A significant body of published peer-reviewed data has accumulated
over the years bearing on the subject of spanking. The more scientific
scrutiny is brought to bear on this practice, the worse it looks. Even
when researchers expecting and hoping to find long term benefits from
spanking perform studies the results show that spanked children turn out
worse in the long run (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997), thus replicating other
longitudinal studies which obtained similar results (Straus et al., 1997,
MacMillan et al., 1999).

After half a century of research, there is not a single published
peer reviewed study which found evidence of any form of measurable long
term benefit to children from spanking. None. If anyone thinks they can
cite a single example of such a study, they are welcome to do so. I have
been on this newsgroup since its inception in August of 1995 and so far,
no one has been able to. There just aren't any such studies.


Chris


REFERENCES


Gunnoe, M.L. & Mariner, C.L. 1997. "Toward a Developmental-Contextual
Model of the effects of Parental Spanking on Children's Aggression."
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151:768-775.

MacMillan, H.L.; Boyle, M.H.; Wong, M.Y.Y.; Duku, E.K.; Fleming, J.E. and
Walsh, C.A. 1999. "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its
association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general
population sample." _Canadian Medical Association Journal_
161(7):805-809.

Straus, M.A.; Sugarman, D.B. and Giles-Sims, J. 1997. "Corporal
Punishment by Parents and Subsequent Anti-Social Behavior of Children"
_Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151(8):761-767.

[Doan]

On 24 Jul 2003, Chris wrote:

> Fern5827 > wrote:
> : Billy, most of em don't have kids. Chris doesn't.
>
> That is correct.
>
LOL! A non-parent telling others how to parent.

> I do not need to be a parent to be against domestic violence against
> children, which includes so-called "spanking." Analogously, I do not need
> to be married to be against wife-beating.
>
False analogy!

> : His bluster is all THEORETICAL.
>
> A significant body of published peer-reviewed data has accumulated
> over the years bearing on the subject of spanking. The more scientific
> scrutiny is brought to bear on this practice, the worse it looks. Even
> when researchers expecting and hoping to find long term benefits from
> spanking perform studies the results show that spanked children turn out
> worse in the long run (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997), thus replicating other
> longitudinal studies which obtained similar results (Straus et al., 1997,
> MacMillan et al., 1999).
>
Are you citing these studies hoping others would read it or you just
citing it to impress others who would not take the time to read them?
I also see that you stopped citing Straus & Mouradian (1998) which found
that non-spanking alternatives correlated to antisocialbe behavior more
than spanking. Nor did you bother to cite Baumrind & Owens (2001), is it
because it just don't fit into your agenda? ;-)

> After half a century of research, there is not a single published
> peer reviewed study which found evidence of any form of measurable long
> term benefit to children from spanking. None. If anyone thinks they can
> cite a single example of such a study, they are welcome to do so. I have
> been on this newsgroup since its inception in August of 1995 and so far,
> no one has been able to. There just aren't any such studies.
>
Actually, there is but you just refused to see it! Look below when I
disect your "references". Let me throw the question back to you,
can you cite "single published peer reviewed study which found evidence
of any measurable long term benefit to children" from non-spanking
alternatives??? I have been asking you directly since I came to this
newsgroup in 1998 and so far, all you have given me is a DEAFENNING
SILENCE!

>
> Chris
>
>
> REFERENCES
>
>
> Gunnoe, M.L. & Mariner, C.L. 1997. "Toward a Developmental-Contextual
> Model of the effects of Parental Spanking on Children's Aggression."
> _Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151:768-775.
>
The following is a summary of the Gunnoe study:

Title: Spanking and Children's Aggression...
[Abstract, August Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775] (c) AMA 1997

Toward a Developmental-Contextual Model of the Effects of Parental Spanking on
Children's Aggression
(Marjorie Lindner Gunnoe, PhD; Carrie Lea Mariner, MA )

Objective:
---------
To challenge the application of an unqualified social learning model to the
study of spanking, positing instead a developmental-contextual model in which
the effects of spanking depend on the meaning children ascribe to spanking.

Design:
------
Population-based survey data from 1112 children aged 4 to 11 years in the
National Survey of Families and Households. Controlled for several family
and child factors including children's baseline aggression.

Main Outcome Measures:
---------------------
Schoolyard fights and antisocial scores on the Behavior Problems Index at the
5-year follow-up.

Results:
-------
Structural equation modeling yielded main effects (P <=.05, change in chi
square) of children's age and race; spanking predicted fewer fights for
children aged 4 to 7 years and for children who are black and more fights
for children aged 8 to 11 years and for children who are white. Regression
analyses within subgroups yielded no evidence that spanking fostered
aggression in children younger than 6 years and supported claims of increased
aggression for only 1 subgroup: 8- to 11-year-old white boys in single-mother
families (P <=.05, F test).

Conclusions:
-----------
For most children, claims that spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded.
Other preventive effects and harmful effects of spanking may occur depending
on the child and the family context. Further efforts to identify moderators of
the effects of spanking on children's adjustment are necessary.

(Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775)

> MacMillan, H.L.; Boyle, M.H.; Wong, M.Y.Y.; Duku, E.K.; Fleming, J.E. and
> Walsh, C.A. 1999. "Slapping and spanking in childhood and its
> association with lifetime prevalence of psychiatric disorders in a general
> population sample." _Canadian Medical Association Journal_
> 161(7):805-809.
>
This is a cross-sectional study, Chris! The problem with this kind of
the study is, as the authors admitted, the "self-report data on childhood
had no independent validity". The authors even acknowledged that
confounding factors might account for the correlation they reported!
Here is the link to this study for anyone who is interested (Unlike Chris
Dugan, I do want everyone to read the studies. ;->).
http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/201/300/cdn_medical_association/cmaj/vol-162/issue-7/0805.htm

> Straus, M.A.; Sugarman, D.B. and Giles-Sims, J. 1997. "Corporal
> Punishment by Parents and Subsequent Anti-Social Behavior of Children"
> _Archives of Pediatrics & Adolescent Medicine_ 151(8):761-767.
>
>
"We are indebted to Larzelere et al for alerting us to the likelihood that our
no-spanking group includes occasional spankers. To the extent that this is
the case, the decrease in antisocial behavior that we found for children in
the "none" group may indicate an improvement in the behavior of children whose
parents spank, but do so only infrequently. Although that is a plausible
interpretation, data from another study enable us to investigate
this issue by classifying spanking as "never" or "not in the past 6 months,"
or the frequency of corporal punishment (CP) in the previous 6 months.[1] "

[1] -This is the Straus & Mouradian (1998) study, which we now know
that the correlation between non-cp alternatives and antisociable behavior
is even stronger thatn spanking! Is Chris Dugan calling for banning
non-cp alternatives too? :-)

Doan

[abacus]

(Catherine Woodgold) wrote in message >...
> "billy f" ) writes:
> > Children die from abuse not from spanking.
>
> That is simply a matter of definition. You can define
> spanking to be "certain acts of striking a child, not
> including any acts of striking that result in the
> death of the child..."
>
> I would consider that an unnecessarily convoluted definition.

To me the definition of spanking includes the idea that it is not
severe. That is, "spanking" not only doesn't cause death but doesn't
cause any sort of physical injury, only pain of limited duration. I
would use the word "beating" to describe an incident that resulted in
any physical harm, even if it were nothing more than bruises. I think
this is a typical understanding of the word "spanking", at least to
members of my generation.

[Chris]

abacus > wrote:

: To me the definition of spanking includes the idea that it is not
: severe. That is, "spanking" not only doesn't cause death but doesn't
: cause any sort of physical injury, only pain of limited duration. I
: would use the word "beating" to describe an incident that resulted in
: any physical harm, even if it were nothing more than bruises. I think
: this is a typical understanding of the word "spanking", at least to
: members of my generation.

Odham's Dictionary of the English Language defines "spanking" as
"A beating with a flat object."

Chris

[Doan]

On 28 Jul 2003, Chris wrote:

> abacus > wrote:
>
> : To me the definition of spanking includes the idea that it is not
> : severe. That is, "spanking" not only doesn't cause death but doesn't
> : cause any sort of physical injury, only pain of limited duration. I
> : would use the word "beating" to describe an incident that resulted in
> : any physical harm, even if it were nothing more than bruises. I think
> : this is a typical understanding of the word "spanking", at least to
> : members of my generation.
>
> Odham's Dictionary of the English Language defines "spanking" as
> "A beating with a flat object."
>
> Chris
>
LOL! So I guess if you beat your child with a rod than it is not spanking
since the rod is not a flat object! Logic and the anti-spanking zealotS,
are they mutually exclusive? ;-)

Doan

[Lord Valve]

Spanker Mc****** spewed forth thusly:

> Odham's Dictionary of the English Language defines "spanking" as
> "A beating with a flat object."
>
> Chris


*Exactly* what an asshole like you needs.
LV