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View Full Version : Re: Embarrassing Students Isn't "Discipline"


billy f
July 6th 03, 03:25 AM
The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has
to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but
receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go
to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline
at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are
softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little
humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find
betters ways to discipline.

"Poopie Diapers" > wrote in message
...
> No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
> they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for
> a day. Thats discipline...
>
> Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
> a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.
>
> They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.
>
> Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
> diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.
>
>
> Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.
>
>
> In article >,
> Chris > wrote:
>
> > Such a shame: school humiliation
> > Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline
> >
> >
> > 06/01/2003
> >
> > By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News
> >
> > A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
wake
> > him up in class.
> >
> > A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete
> > who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety
> > rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.
> >
> > A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
> > refer to themselves in writing as "losers."
> >
> > A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
> > including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show
> > disrespect.
> >
> > Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
> > reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.
> >
> > But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
between
> > effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
> > understand and that schools shouldn't cross.
> >
> > In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them
> > humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who
> > serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public
> > schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them
> > feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that
> > makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' "
> >
> > Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most
> > teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline
> > techniques.
> >
> > Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
> > sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
clowns
> > around.
> >
> > Enter humiliation.
> >
> > "Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
> > teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said
> > Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
> > Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
can
> > always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
> > corrected."
> >
> > Separating deed, doer
> >
> >
> > The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still
> > allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while
wearing
> > the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But
the
> > girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
> > "I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
kinda
> > made me not want to do athletics anymore."
> >
> > Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she
had
> > a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon
> > workout.
> >
> > Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
> > consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.
> >
> > "What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
> > unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how
> > she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is
that
> > we want to separate the deed from the doer."
> >
> > Wrong focus
> >
> > Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California
> > State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a
way
> > that teaches them to hate things they should love.
> >
> > Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
> > psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
> > push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
> > discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
> > consequences, Dr. Brock said.
> >
> > "The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead
> > of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus
should
> > have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
class
> > on time."
> >
> > The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
> > seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
> > homework.
> >
> > While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in
> > class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a
> > sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it
punishes
> > kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
write
> > more?"
> >
> > 'Do things respectfully'
> >
> >
> > Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
Denton
> > County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a
> > tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.
> >
> > The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
> > incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population
> > that lacks respect for authority.
> >
> > But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said
> > effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a
> > tennis ball.
> >
> > "Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
> > hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he
> > been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his
> > parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?
> >
> > "You do things respectfully."
> >
> > Corporal punishment
> >
> >
> > Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
> > discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the
> > legendary paddle, the "board of education."
> >
> > Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
> > divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
> > Texas and 22 other states allow it.
> >
> > Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
beneficial
> > when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of
> > families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect
> > for authority.
> >
> > Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
> > Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
School
> > Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent
> > groups are against corporal punishment.
> >
> > Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey,
> > said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when
a
> > teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,"
she
> > said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK
to
> > hit other people."
> >
> > Keep an eye out
> >
> >
> > So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools
> > keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating
> > them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward
> > kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no
> > productive end?
> >
> > Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
> > their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
> > sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.
> >
> > "If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all
> > excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a
sudden
> > doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further
> > inquiries about what's happening."

knuckle dragger, the hick
July 6th 03, 05:26 PM
wrote:

> "billy f" > wrote:
>> The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
>> traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child
>> has to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school,
>> but receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or
>> want to go to school. However if a parent has used a more military style
>> of discipline at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose
>> parents are softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a
>> little humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can
>> find betters ways to discipline.
>
> I agree with you. In our case when CPS took our child away their major
> gripe was that we wouldn't disipline him. (we had employed attachment
> parenting long before birth, of course attachment parenting includes
> disipline through loving guidence and affording the child their
> dignity.) So in our supervised visits it basically consisted of having
> to put our two year old in "time-outs" for little things like making
> moter boat noises (they said he was spitting) or wanting to open up his
> own presents (they said he was throwing a fit when they took his present
> away.) Or having the visits completly terminated because I would ask a
> caseworker to quit snapping her chewing gum, etc. The worse part was
> having him brought to visits with cuts and bruises and bitemarks,
> handprints (documented) I don't even think a "last resort" is
> appropraite. I believe the problem should be addressed before it begins.
> Better communications. (i.e. The caregivers would complain that when
> they chastised (humiliated) him by calling him naughty, he would act up
> more. His favorite show? Enid Blyton's The Noddy Shop.) I really agree
> with you a 'better way' can be found. It's a "continuum concept."
>
>>
>> "Poopie Diapers" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
>> > they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around
>> > for a day. Thats discipline...
>> >
>> > Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
>> > a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.
>> >
>> > They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.
>> >
>> > Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
>> > diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.
>> >
>> >
>> > Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.
>> >
>> >
>> > In article >,
>> > Chris > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Such a shame: school humiliation
>> > > Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good
>> > > discipline
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > 06/01/2003
>> > >
>> > > By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News
>> > >
>> > > A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
>> wake
>> > > him up in class.
>> > >
>> > > A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade
>> > > athlete who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears
>> > > despite a safety rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.
>> > >
>> > > A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
>> > > refer to themselves in writing as "losers."
>> > >
>> > > A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
>> > > including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or
>> > > show disrespect.
>> > >
>> > > Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
>> > > reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.
>> > >
>> > > But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
>> between
>> > > effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
>> > > understand and that schools shouldn't cross.
>> > >
>> > > In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider
>> > > them humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and
>> > > counselor who serves as executive director of human resources for
>> > > Garland public schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a
>> > > student, makes them feel unworthy or singles them out for negative
>> > > attention, something that makes a kid feel like, 'There's something
>> > > wrong with me.' "
>> > >
>> > > Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe
>> > > most teachers like children and are well-trained in effective
>> > > discipline techniques.
>> > >
>> > > Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
>> > > sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
>> clowns
>> > > around.
>> > >
>> > > Enter humiliation.
>> > >
>> > > "Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
>> > > teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' "
>> > > said Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
>> > > Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
>> can
>> > > always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
>> > > corrected."
>> > >
>> > > Separating deed, doer
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but
>> > > still allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training
>> > > while
>> wearing
>> > > the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry.
>> > > But
>> the
>> > > girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
>> > > "I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
>> kinda
>> > > made me not want to do athletics anymore."
>> > >
>> > > Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that
>> > > she
>> had
>> > > a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the
>> > > afternoon workout.
>> > >
>> > > Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
>> > > consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.
>> > >
>> > > "What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
>> > > unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl
>> > > how she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this
>> > > is
>> that
>> > > we want to separate the deed from the doer."
>> > >
>> > > Wrong focus
>> > >
>> > > Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at
>> > > California State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing
>> > > students in a
>> way
>> > > that teaches them to hate things they should love.
>> > >
>> > > Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
>> > > psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
>> > > push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
>> > > discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
>> > > consequences, Dr. Brock said.
>> > >
>> > > "The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment
>> > > instead of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The
>> > > focus
>> should
>> > > have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
>> class
>> > > on time."
>> > >
>> > > The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
>> > > seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
>> > > homework.
>> > >
>> > > While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments
>> > > in class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea
>> > > culpa on a sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock
>> > > said, "it
>> punishes
>> > > kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
>> write
>> > > more?"
>> > >
>> > > 'Do things respectfully'
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
>> Denton
>> > > County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced
>> > > a tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.
>> > >
>> > > The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
>> > > incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent
>> > > population that lacks respect for authority.
>> > >
>> > > But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y.,
>> > > said effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen
>> > > with a tennis ball.
>> > >
>> > > "Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
>> > > hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has
>> > > he been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call
>> > > his parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?
>> > >
>> > > "You do things respectfully."
>> > >
>> > > Corporal punishment
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
>> > > discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with
>> > > the legendary paddle, the "board of education."
>> > >
>> > > Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
>> > > divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
>> > > Texas and 22 other states allow it.
>> > >
>> > > Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
>> beneficial
>> > > when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot
>> > > of families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances
>> > > respect for authority.
>> > >
>> > > Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
>> > > Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
>> School
>> > > Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other
>> > > prominent groups are against corporal punishment.
>> > >
>> > > Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New
>> > > Jersey, said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are
>> > > times when
>> a
>> > > teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,
>> > > "
>> she
>> > > said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's
>> > > OK
>> to
>> > > hit other people."
>> > >
>> > > Keep an eye out
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids'
>> > > schools keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or
>> > > humiliating them? How can they tell if the school environment is
>> > > benevolent toward kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power
>> > > over students to no productive end?
>> > >
>> > > Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
>> > > their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
>> > > sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.
>> > >
>> > > "If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years
>> > > all excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of
>> > > a
>> sudden
>> > > doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make
>> > > further inquiries about what's happening."
>

Bull****. The problem I see in raising kids these days is that people dont
want to be parents, they want to be friends to their brats and as a result
you get a generation of self endulgent wimps who care for noone but
themselves.

Discipline is nessicary and all that horrible trauma you fear so much for
the kiddies is a little thing we call growing up. Sheltering them from such
things is ultimately destructive and by pushing this agenda you and your
ilk should be ashamed of yourselves.
--
I would have gotten away with if it werent for those meddling kids!

LaVonne Carlson
July 8th 03, 12:27 AM
This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is raised
at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have
problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the
problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home.

Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children are
not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of how
they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is that
what we want our children to learn?

LaVonne

billy f wrote:

> The biggest problem with this type of discipline is it can be very
> traumatizing to a child who is not raised this way at home. If a child has
> to contended with being embarrassed and a punished harshly at school, but
> receives no punishment at home, he or she is not going to like or want to go
> to school. However if a parent has used a more military style of discipline
> at home, they would benefit more from it than a child whose parents are
> softer. Sometimes as a last resort a school my need to use a little
> humiliation to get the point across, but in general a school can find
> betters ways to discipline.
>
> "Poopie Diapers" > wrote in message
> ...
> > No it sounds like pure military discipline. You know in the military
> > they do much worse. Imagine carrying a bucket with your crap around for
> > a day. Thats discipline...
> >
> > Imagine a teacher telling a student for punishment he will need to take
> > a crap/pee in a bucket and carry that around school.
> >
> > They do that in the military and sometimes much worse.
> >
> > Imagine being forced to walk around with your pants down wearing a
> > diaper and sucking your thumb for a day of discipline.
> >
> >
> > Sounds like some teachers are preparing students for tyhe military.
> >
> >
> > In article >,
> > Chris > wrote:
> >
> > > Such a shame: school humiliation
> > > Education experts say embarrassing students isn't good discipline
> > >
> > >
> > > 06/01/2003
> > >
> > > By SCOTT PARKS / The Dallas Morning News
> > >
> > > A teacher bounces a tennis ball off a high school kid's head to
> wake
> > > him up in class.
> > >
> > > A coach uses the word "stupid" to describe a seventh-grade athlete
> > > who wants to leave the studs in her newly pierced ears despite a safety
> > > rule against wearing jewelry during workouts.
> > >
> > > A teacher makes students who don't turn in homework assignments
> > > refer to themselves in writing as "losers."
> > >
> > > A lot of people see nothing wrong with using punitive measures,
> > > including corporal punishment, against students who break rules or show
> > > disrespect.
> > >
> > > Their thinking goes like this: Some kids just don't listen to
> > > reason. They respond only to tough and decisive punishment.
> > >
> > > But school psychologists and counselors say there is a line
> between
> > > effective discipline and humiliation - a line that parents should
> > > understand and that schools shouldn't cross.
> > >
> > > In each of the incidents described above, "I would consider them
> > > humiliation," said Roger Herrington, a former teacher and counselor who
> > > serves as executive director of human resources for Garland public
> > > schools. "That includes anything that depreciates a student, makes them
> > > feel unworthy or singles them out for negative attention, something that
> > > makes a kid feel like, 'There's something wrong with me.' "
> > >
> > > Mr. Herrington and other veteran educators say they believe most
> > > teachers like children and are well-trained in effective discipline
> > > techniques.
> > >
> > > Still, teachers have bad days or fall into bad moods. And,
> > > sometimes, they react without thinking when a student misbehaves or
> clowns
> > > around.
> > >
> > > Enter humiliation.
> > >
> > > "Often, when a kid has misbehaved, one of the smartest things a
> > > teacher can do is ask himself, 'How do I want this to turn out?' " said
> > > Dr. Scott Poland, director of psychological services for the
> > > Cypress-Fairbanks school district near Houston. "A barometer teachers
> can
> > > always use is to ask themselves how they would want their child
> > > corrected."
> > >
> > > Separating deed, doer
> > >
> > >
> > > The coach called the girl "stupid" for piercing her ears but still
> > > allowed her to participate in afternoon weight training while
> wearing
> > > the new studs - a violation of the rule prohibiting jewelry. But
> the
> > > girl was still unhappy about being called stupid.0
> > > "I was just really upset and mad," she said. "For a while, it
> kinda
> > > made me not want to do athletics anymore."
> > >
> > > Dr. Poland suggests the coach should have told the girl that she
> had
> > > a choice to make. She could take out the studs or sit out the afternoon
> > > workout.
> > >
> > > Instead, the coach used an insult and let the girl escape
> > > consequences for violating the no-jewelry rule.
> > >
> > > "What happened is like a global attack on the girl and really
> > > unnecessary," Dr. Poland said. "The coach could have asked the girl how
> > > she could have avoided the situation. A basic part of all of this is
> that
> > > we want to separate the deed from the doer."
> > >
> > > Wrong focus
> > >
> > > Dr. Stephen Brock, who trains school psychologists at California
> > > State University at Sacramento, warns against punishing students in a
> way
> > > that teaches them to hate things they should love.
> > >
> > > Dr. Brock, who taught for 18 years before becoming a school
> > > psychologist, remembers a coach who made his students run laps and do
> > > push-ups for being late. It became a classic case of ineffective
> > > discipline that makes no connection between the bad behavior and the
> > > consequences, Dr. Brock said.
> > >
> > > "The message to those kids was that exercise is punishment instead
> > > of promoting exercise as a way to be healthy," he said. "The focus
> should
> > > have been on how to get the kids more organized so they could get to
> class
> > > on time."
> > >
> > > The same is true, he said, of the teacher who made her
> > > seventh-graders write "loser sentences" when they failed to do their
> > > homework.
> > >
> > > While the other students reviewed and graded their assignments in
> > > class, the "losers" would have to write and rewrite their mea culpa on a
> > > sheet of paper. "Not only is it humiliating," Dr. Brock said, "it
> punishes
> > > kids by making them write. And this is supposed to encourage them to
> write
> > > more?"
> > >
> > > 'Do things respectfully'
> > >
> > >
> > > Tim Hayes, a first-year teacher at Little Elm High School in
> Denton
> > > County, had already submitted his resignation by the time he bounced a
> > > tennis ball off a sleeping student's head May 8.
> > >
> > > The 14-year-old boy was not hurt, and some people might say the
> > > incident was amusing and might be justified for an adolescent population
> > > that lacks respect for authority.
> > >
> > > But John Kelly, a high school psychologist in Commack, N.Y., said
> > > effective discipline is not as quick and easy as beaning a teen with a
> > > tennis ball.
> > >
> > > "Why not nudge the kid on the shoulder and take him out in the
> > > hall?" Mr. Kelly said. "Does he need to go to the school nurse? Has he
> > > been up until midnight playing video games and you need to call his
> > > parents? Does he work until midnight and come to school tired?
> > >
> > > "You do things respectfully."
> > >
> > > Corporal punishment
> > >
> > >
> > > Inevitably, the conversation about what constitutes effective
> > > discipline will turn to corporal punishment - usually, spanking with the
> > > legendary paddle, the "board of education."
> > >
> > > Data compiled by the U.S. Department of Education show a nation
> > > divided over corporal punishment. Twenty-seven states have banned it.
> > > Texas and 22 other states allow it.
> > >
> > > Some academic studies suggest that light spanking can be
> beneficial
> > > when reasoning and nonphysical punishments haven't worked. And a lot of
> > > families believe that spanking is beneficial because it enhances respect
> > > for authority.
> > >
> > > Even so, the American Academy of Pediatrics, American Bar
> > > Association, American Medical Association, National Association of
> School
> > > Nurses, National Association of School Psychologists and other prominent
> > > groups are against corporal punishment.
> > >
> > > Diane Smallwood, an elementary school psychologist in New Jersey,
> > > said spanking is never an appropriate discipline. "There are times when
> a
> > > teacher may have to physically restrain a student for safety reasons,"
> she
> > > said. "But corporal punishment is, in fact, teaching kids that it's OK
> to
> > > hit other people."
> > >
> > > Keep an eye out
> > >
> > >
> > > So, how can parents who rarely set foot inside their kids' schools
> > > keep track of whether teachers are disciplining students or humiliating
> > > them? How can they tell if the school environment is benevolent toward
> > > kids or tolerant of teachers who use their power over students to no
> > > productive end?
> > >
> > > Be vigilant, Ms. Smallwood advises. Talk to other parents about
> > > their experiences with the principal and teachers. And, she adds, be
> > > sensitive to what your child says or doesn't say.
> > >
> > > "If you have a youngster who's been coming home for five years all
> > > excited about school and then he goes into a new grade and all of a
> sudden
> > > doesn't want to share information about school, you need to make further
> > > inquiries about what's happening."

billy f
July 9th 03, 10:51 AM
Once again your forming a generalization that all children raised with tough
discipline "already have problems". I really don't think you know how the
human mind works. If a child is raised with this kind of discipline from day
one he will except it as the norm and will not question it. Most children
never have a problem with the way their parents raise them until outside
forces feed their minds with crap like "your parents did that to you, that's
child abuse" Its only then that they start resenting their parents for
raising them the way they have. Children raised with military type
discipline that is not to harsh or demeaning are usually from my experience
very strong, competitive, athletic masculine individuals. They are usually
leaders more than followers and they don't go around whining about
everything like children raised in more permissive households do. Of course
if the parents are mean and sadistic like the military can sometimes be the
child could grow up with emotional problems.

The last part of your statement is a very politically correct one. Children
sometimes are humiliated by teachers because the student is humiliating
others including the teacher. Sometimes letting someone see how it feels is
the best solution to a problem. People like you think that your doing right
by sheltering children from reality. The truth is in the real world you
disrespect someone they are going to do the same to you.

"LaVonne Carlson" > wrote in message
...
> This type of discipline is traumatizing regardless of how the child is
raised
> at home. Children raised with military discipline at home already have
> problems. Confronting the same disciplinary in school only confounds the
> problem created by the discipline experience in the child's home.
>
> Schools, even as a last resort, do not need to use humiliation. Children
are
> not stupid. Children understand humiliation and disrespect, regardless of
how
> they are parented. Humiliation teaches children to humiliate others. Is
that
> what we want our children to learn?

billy f
July 11th 03, 10:06 AM
The correct name of the book is "A Child Called It". Its a very good book,
the first of three a book series. The abuse that Dave endured is far worst
that any person could ever imagine. Dave was starved for up to ten days and
when he was fed he was fed table scraps from the rest of the families food.
To survive David stole food at school and when his mother found out she mad
him vomit it into the toilet, pick it out and made him eat it later that
night. After that incident his mother would make him stick his finger down
his throat everyday after school to make sure he was not eating a school.
She made him do all of the house work and made him wear the same clothes to
school everyday. He received regular beatings and was verbally abused, she
didn't even call him by his name, just "the boy" or "it" Some of the other
things she did is made him drink ammonia, soap and bleach and made him stand
in the bathroom with a mixture of bleach and ammonia. She did quite a few
other think that I will not get into. His father who became a alcoholic like
Dave's mother did very little to stop the abuse. Lucky school officials got
involved and got him taken away from his mother and placed in foster care
until he was 18. The other two books is about his life after the rescue.
Dave hated his mother for years, but found that hate would only destroy him.
Today he is a active contributor in the fight against child abuse. I have a
lot respect for that man to able to turn out so well despite with rough
childhood.

I think everyone should read these book especially the first. You will read
first hand what real child about is, not loving parents that sometimes
spank.

"tötö©" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 19:51:47 -0400, Newman Hunt >
> wrote:
>
> >What you perceive to be "abuse" may very well be perceived by someone
> >else as not "coddling spoiled brats". Furthermore, children will
> >often love and even hate their parents regardless if abuse is present.
>
> Read A Boy Called It by Dave Pelzer
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> Outer Limits

Doan
July 12th 03, 03:56 AM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:13:17 -0400, Newman Hunt >
> wrote:
>
> >>Children who are humiliated especially by their parents don't learn to
> >>cope, they learn that they are helpless to cope with such abuses and
> >>they internalize the fact that they *deserve* to be abused.
> >
> >The parents who abuse their children often find it very difficult to
> >cope with life. Most parents who abuse their children do not wake up
> >thinking, "Gee, I feel great today. I feel like abusing little
> >Johnny."
>
> I agree.
>
> And many parents who abuse their children are following the same
> pattern their own parents followed. It is very difficult to break the
> cycle, but it can be done.
>
No. It is very easy. All you have to do is ban spanking! ;-)

> I am not one of those who believes that the government must solve
> this in *most* situations. I believe that most parents actually want
> to parent well, but stress makes this difficult too. We need as a
> society to begin to help parents who are under stress to learn how
> to take care of themselves and their children. Believe it or not
> positive parenting can make their lives more bearable as well as
> making the kids lives better.

Yup! Especially when both parents are working and the kids are in
daycare from 7AM to 6PM!!! Or children are left alone to care for
themselves from 3PM, when school is out, 'till whenever the single
mother got home from work! Do you still have time for positive
parenting? :-)

Doan

Doan
July 12th 03, 04:13 AM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:14:12 -0400, Newman Hunt >
> wrote:
>
> >If so, then what good are all the various theories and statistics
> >people love to use while discussing abused children?
>
> I realize that I have not been on apspanking for quite some time
> so you probably don't know my view on the studies and statistics.
>
> I have a background in mathematics. Most social science studies
> do not meet my criteria for valid studies given their often poor
> use of statistical data and analysis. The data is often poor because
> the variables simply cannot be all controlled for. The analyses
> according to mathematicians I know who have sat on peer review
> panels is often faulty and the few mathematicians on the panel are
> often ignored when the studies go to publication in social science
> journals.
>
> The studies are pointers, but while the correlations are there, I
> don't take them as *proof*.

And you shouldn't because correlations are not causations! Putting that
aside, what studies should do is to compare spanking and the non-cp
alternatives under the same condition. This is what Baumrind & Owens
(2002) attempted, along with accounting for other third confounding
factors, they found no significant correlations between spanking and
negative outcomes. In Straus & Mouradian (1998), the correlation
between non-cp alternatives and anti-sociable behavior was even STRONGER
than with spanking!

> I go more by what I observe with the
> many children I see in real life and the teenagers I talk to and
> listen to.
>
As do many other people. That is why, not too many buy into to
anti-spanking agenda. Those that do buy into it seem to be suffering
from a case of "cargo cult" mentality. ;-) The latest line, as seen
by recent posts from Chris Dugan and LaVonne (who refused to debate
me even while claiming to only read research studies), is that even
pediatricians are not "experts" in child development!!! You should
trust the anti-spanking "expert"! :-)

"Yet these things are said to be scientific. We study them. And I
think ordinary people with commonsense ideas are intimidated by
this pseudoscience. A teacher who has some good idea of how to
teach her children to read is forced by the school system to do it
some other way--or is even fooled by the school system into
thinking that her method is not necessarily a good one. Or a parent
of bad boys, after disciplining them in one way or another, feels
guilty for the rest of her life because she didn't do "the right
thing," according to the experts.

So we really ought to look into theories that don't work, and
science that isn't science.

I think the educational and psychological studies I mentioned are
examples of what I would like to call cargo cult science. In the
South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw
airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same
thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like
runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a
wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head
like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's
the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're
doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the
way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So
I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the
apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but
they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land."

(from Cargo Cult Science by Richard Feyman.
Adapted from the CalTech commencement address given in 1974)

Doan

Doan
July 12th 03, 04:39 AM
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, t=F6t=F6=A9 wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:56:37 -0700, Doan > wrote:
>
> >Yup! Especially when both parents are working and the kids are in
> >daycare from 7AM to 6PM!!! Or children are left alone to care for
> >themselves from 3PM, when school is out, 'till whenever the single
> >mother got home from work! Do you still have time for positive
> >parenting? :-)
> >
> In situations like this, you had better make time for positive
> parenting, because negative parenting makes your life more
> stressful.
>
Life is often not a matter of either/or.

Doan

Donna Metler
July 13th 03, 03:00 PM
"Newman Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:09:52 -0500, tötö© >
> wrote:
>
> >On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:13:45 -0400, Newman Hunt >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>>The attitude begins before school age.
> >>
> >>Are you suggesting that adolecesents who never exhibited any emotional
> >>dysfunctions before school age must have been abused if they are
> >>bullied in school and suddenly go on a killing spree?
> >
> >I would suggest that often the bullying in school is only a proximate
> >cause and not the full story.
>
> Have you ever endured a prolonged period of time where you were
> bullied? If not, how can you suggest such a thing?

I was-for years. As a student with physical and speech-language delays, I
was very "amusing" to get a reaction from.

However, home was my refuge, where I knew I was safe. I didn't get the same
emotional and physical abuse there that I did at school. As a result, I
could cling to that and not internalize the abuse as being part of me which
I deserved.


Similarly, I've known abused children for whom school was their refuge,
where they were accepted. And in general, they are less likely to
internalize the abuse and believe it is caused by them.

The saddest children are those who are pariahs both at home and at school,
because they often feel they have no one to blame but themselves, and that
therefore it has to be their fault. And where the culture used to be such
that such children either endured it (and grew up to end up in abusive
relationships or to be abusive themselves, or both), ended up using drugs,
or ended up committing suicide, now violence is increasingly becoming the
answer. Not only school shootings, but many kids who get involved in gangs
do so because they need an accepting place where they feel safe-and the gang
provides that.

Donna Metler
July 14th 03, 12:03 AM
"Newman Hunt" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 09:00:00 -0500, "Donna Metler"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Newman Hunt" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:09:52 -0500, tötö© >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:13:45 -0400, Newman Hunt >
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>>The attitude begins before school age.
> >> >>
> >> >>Are you suggesting that adolecesents who never exhibited any
emotional
> >> >>dysfunctions before school age must have been abused if they are
> >> >>bullied in school and suddenly go on a killing spree?
> >> >
> >> >I would suggest that often the bullying in school is only a proximate
> >> >cause and not the full story.
> >>
> >> Have you ever endured a prolonged period of time where you were
> >> bullied? If not, how can you suggest such a thing?
> >
> >I was-for years. As a student with physical and speech-language delays, I
> >was very "amusing" to get a reaction from.
> >
> >However, home was my refuge, where I knew I was safe. I didn't get the
same
> >emotional and physical abuse there that I did at school. As a result, I
> >could cling to that and not internalize the abuse as being part of me
which
> >I deserved.
>
> Were your parents aware of the emotional and physical abuse you
> endured at school? If so, what did they do (if anything) to combat
> this abuse? If your parents weren't aware of the abuse, why not?

My parents were limited in what they could do-this didn't take place in the
classroom, but around it, during the so-called "social" times of the day.
One of the best things they did was find a karate instructor who was willing
to work with me-having the confidence and knowing I could defend myself
physically helped a lot, and the one time I ever did fight back physically,
they strongly defended me and supported me.

And, in general, they helped me find things I was good at and capitalize on
my strengths, and made efforts to make contact with people who would be good
peers for me, which helped as well.

Catherine Woodgold
July 15th 03, 03:39 AM
"billy f" ) writes:
> I think everyone should read these book especially the first. You will read
> first hand what real child about is, not loving parents that sometimes
> spank.

"abuse" is just a word. Different people have different
definitions for it. Whatever the definition, one can always
find some abuse that is far worse than some other abuse.
Just because there exists far worse abuse doesn't necessarily
mean something else is not also abuse. Instead, you have
to provide a definition and then show how the thing doesn't
fit the definition.

What is your definition of "abuse"? (You're the one using
the word, so how about telling us what you mean by it.)
--
Cathy