Help, advice, Please?

[C. Gregory]

hi there, new to this board.

i need help, and advice, and info please!!!

i have a son who is almost 2. i have spanked him, and hated it every time. i
do not wish to hit my child, in fact untill just recently (a couple of
months ago) i never thought i would i was as anti spanking as you can get
( i dont think its right, i just dont). the problem is that i just dont know
what else to do. its what i grew up with, and what i knew, and i'm at my
whits end!!! any non spanking parents of toddlers, PLEASE give me some
advice.


thank you

[LaVonne Carlson]

Hi,

Thank you for writing, and for your honesty. Regardless of what we believe,
it's hard to parent differently than we were parented. Also, toddlerhood is
one of the most difficult times for parents---and for children.

I'm not currently parenting a toddler, but I have been there. My girls are now
20 and 24, but I remember the age well. There are some great parenting books
that recommend alternatives to spanking. "The Discipline Book" by Sears is
good, and Johnson & Johnson have a good book about toddler development and
parenting. I think it helps if one understands the meaning behind toddler
behavior, which can be trying, to say the least.

In addition to raising children, I have a doctorate in Child Development and
Early Childhood Education/Special Education. Feel free to write me personally
if you would like specific suggestions, or just to vent.

The important thing is that you do not believe in spanking your child, you feel
bad when you spank your child, and you want alternatives.

I look forward to hearing from you.

LaVonne

"C. Gregory" wrote:

> hi there, new to this board.
>
> i need help, and advice, and info please!!!
>
> i have a son who is almost 2. i have spanked him, and hated it every time. i
> do not wish to hit my child, in fact untill just recently (a couple of
> months ago) i never thought i would i was as anti spanking as you can get
> ( i dont think its right, i just dont). the problem is that i just dont know
> what else to do. its what i grew up with, and what i knew, and i'm at my
> whits end!!! any non spanking parents of toddlers, PLEASE give me some
> advice.
>
> thank you

[Catherine Woodgold]

"C. Gregory" ) writes:
> hi there, new to this board.
>
> i need help, and advice, and info please!!!
>
> i have a son who is almost 2. i have spanked him, and hated it every time. i
> do not wish to hit my child, in fact untill just recently (a couple of
> months ago) i never thought i would i was as anti spanking as you can get
> ( i dont think its right, i just dont). the problem is that i just dont know
> what else to do. its what i grew up with, and what i knew, and i'm at my
> whits end!!! any non spanking parents of toddlers, PLEASE give me some
> advice.
>
>
> thank you
>
>


Hello. I think you would like to read the book
"Setting Limits: Raising Responsible Children with
CLEAR Boundaries" by R. Mackenzie. This book tells
how to get children to follow rules, without
spanking and without ever needing to yell either.

Toddlers can be very very frustrating at times.
It helps to keep a sense of humour. When
everything is going wrong, try to just suddenly
break out laughing. Sometimes it works.

It's good to calmly think out a plan for what
to do when the child does something you don't
like. When you have some free time (as if
parents of toddlers ever do!) you can try to
think of things the child might do, and then
think of how you will respond.

Example: your child hits another child.
One way to respond: you calmly say "we don't
hit." You pick up your child and take him/her
away from the other children, away from the
toys, to a quiet place for a whole minute
(which seems like a long time at that age.)
Then you take your child back, maybe say
"let's play gently," and that's that.
If the child hits again, you do it again.
Similar actions have been proven in scientific
studies to be as effective as spanking in
teaching proper behaviour. Probably more effective
in the long run.

Better yet, you watch and catch your child
before he/she hits. "I see you're frustrated
because you want that toy. Let's ask the
other child for a turn."

If you tell me what situations you spank in,
I can give alternative suggestions for those
situations.

One idea: do everything else the same, but
just don't spank! Just do something to calm
yourself down instead. The child will
sometimes do things you don't like, whether
you spank or not. If you don't spank, in
the long run, he/she will probably behave
a lot better than if you do.
--
Cathy

[C. Gregory]

The biggest issue right now is sleep time, bed time or nap time, he throws
a fit, screaming, kicking, hitting, getting out of bed, etc...
it isnt every day, but more often than not.

i've tried keeping him on a fairly regulated schedule (not second by second,
but around the same time every day) and we have a ritual (kind of) that
involves potty, drink, story and music. this all works if i can get him to
settle down long enough to want to hear the story.

( is it just me or is a not quite 2 year old a little bit young to be doing
the whole "go potty!!!" "want drink" "go potty" routine before bed? just
curious!!)

also, biting is a big issue from time to time, and that one really bothers
me, because he bites my roommates child occasionally (he wont bite for
weeks, then suddenly he's a biting fool.)


i realise that spanking him doesnt make sense "im going to hurt you because
you hurt him" just seems really childish to me. but what do i do? i can
separate the kids, and say no bite! but he keeps on doing it.

as far as the rest, i am making a concerted effort not to spank him, and it
made me realise that i was doing it out of frustration, which is dangerous,
i'd hate to loose controll of myself, and not really doing any good. now i
tend to tell him what he should be doing. if he hits i say no hitting, show
nice! (he'll rub the side of your face gently and say nice) or say sorry and
give huggs. sometimes this works, but how do i deal with the NO! NO!NO!'s?
ah the joys of toddlers!!

thanks for the info and help so far. !!
Celeste

P.S. just wanted to say that he is actually a very well behaved child most
of the time, he is just a little hyper and desperately curious and not
afraid of anything, and incredibly bright, which just happens to be an
exausting and sometimes frustrating combo, but soooo rewarding too. my
little guy is the best thing thats ever happened to me, and the only way i'd
be any happier is if he slept past 6:30 in the morning!!!


;-)


Celeste

"Catherine Woodgold" > wrote in message
...
> "C. Gregory" ) writes:
> > hi there, new to this board.
> >
> > i need help, and advice, and info please!!!
> >
> > i have a son who is almost 2. i have spanked him, and hated it every
time. i
> > do not wish to hit my child, in fact untill just recently (a couple of
> > months ago) i never thought i would i was as anti spanking as you can
get
> > ( i dont think its right, i just dont). the problem is that i just dont
know
> > what else to do. its what i grew up with, and what i knew, and i'm at my
> > whits end!!! any non spanking parents of toddlers, PLEASE give me some
> > advice.
> >
> >
> > thank you
> >
> >
>
>
> Hello. I think you would like to read the book
> "Setting Limits: Raising Responsible Children with
> CLEAR Boundaries" by R. Mackenzie. This book tells
> how to get children to follow rules, without
> spanking and without ever needing to yell either.
>
> Toddlers can be very very frustrating at times.
> It helps to keep a sense of humour. When
> everything is going wrong, try to just suddenly
> break out laughing. Sometimes it works.
>
> It's good to calmly think out a plan for what
> to do when the child does something you don't
> like. When you have some free time (as if
> parents of toddlers ever do!) you can try to
> think of things the child might do, and then
> think of how you will respond.
>
> Example: your child hits another child.
> One way to respond: you calmly say "we don't
> hit." You pick up your child and take him/her
> away from the other children, away from the
> toys, to a quiet place for a whole minute
> (which seems like a long time at that age.)
> Then you take your child back, maybe say
> "let's play gently," and that's that.
> If the child hits again, you do it again.
> Similar actions have been proven in scientific
> studies to be as effective as spanking in
> teaching proper behaviour. Probably more effective
> in the long run.
>
> Better yet, you watch and catch your child
> before he/she hits. "I see you're frustrated
> because you want that toy. Let's ask the
> other child for a turn."
>
> If you tell me what situations you spank in,
> I can give alternative suggestions for those
> situations.
>
> One idea: do everything else the same, but
> just don't spank! Just do something to calm
> yourself down instead. The child will
> sometimes do things you don't like, whether
> you spank or not. If you don't spank, in
> the long run, he/she will probably behave
> a lot better than if you do.
> --
> Cathy
>

[Catherine Woodgold]

"C. Gregory" ) writes:
> The biggest issue right now is sleep time, bed time or nap time, he throws
> a fit, screaming, kicking, hitting, getting out of bed, etc...
> it isnt every day, but more often than not.

Ooh, that's a tough one. Sounds very difficult for you.
Probably very difficult for him, too.

I wonder whether he's afraid to go to sleep because of nightmares.

I wonder what your sleeping arrangements are: that is, do you
expect him to be alone in a room while he falls asleep? If so,
I would urge you to consider staying with him until he falls
asleep. Little children are often afraid of being alone.

Many mothers find that breastfeeding is a relatively easy way to get
toddlers to sleep.

You could try a cradle or some sort of (safe) swinging hammock,
or try to have him fall asleep in your lap while you rock
in a rocking chair. You could take him for a walk in a stroller
at naptime; he might fall asleep like that. That might
not be as convenient for you as having him sleep in a bed
at home, but it might be better than the kicking and stuff.

There are some good ideas on this page:

http://borntoexplore.org/discipline.htm

While this is written for parents of kids with ADD, the
ideas apply to all kids IMO.

See especially the part of that page that begins
"I had just read about Kiersey's ...". (Most of the
way down the page, the second yellow section after
the blue heading "Method # 2: Abuse it -- Lose it", not
the heading near the top, "2. Abuse it -- Lose it".)
This talks about how Teresa Gallagher (the author of
the web page) got her son to take naps in day care
with a system where he would lose the privilege of
using his cot if he got up. If you decide to use
a method like that, you need enough confidence to
be able to continue calmly applying the method while
it seems not to work the first few times. You need
to get across to the child that you will continue
using that method no matter what the child does.

Spanking will certainly not help get a child to sleep.

You might consider whether he needs to have a longer
sleep at night and no nap. At least that would cut
the struggles in half! If he's not tired, it's harder
to get him to sleep.

With my kids, sometimes naps had to be at a specific
time. If we started trying to have the nap later
than 12:30 past noon, it took longer to get them
to sleep. Different kids will have different patterns.
They might not look tired when the best time for
the nap comes along.

Consider adding a bath into the sleeptime routine.
Supposedly it does something to body temperature
that promotes sleep. Anyway, I found baths were
really useful: both to keep a baby awake during
the bath, and to help the baby or child get to
sleep shortly after the bath. I think the bath
helps relax them. (Or if they splash a lot maybe
it tires them out.)

Also try to think of things you can say as part
of the bedtime routine. "Good night, sleep tight"
or whatever. Things to say just before the story
and just after. The same things every time, said
in a very loving voice. It helps make the routine
more routine, and signals the child that it's time
to go to sleep.

--
Cathy

[C. Gregory]

thanks so much for your reply!


> I wonder whether he's afraid to go to sleep because of nightmares.

I've concidered this but im not sure. maybe, im always there for him if he
wakes up crying tho, we make sure he knows that he can come to our room at
night if he needs us too. bad dreams stink. :(

> I wonder what your sleeping arrangements are: that is, do you
> expect him to be alone in a room while he falls asleep? If so,
> I would urge you to consider staying with him until he falls
> asleep. Little children are often afraid of being alone.

Lately i have been trying to stay with him untill he falls asleep. also, my
roomates son of the same age sleeps in the same room (im kind of a live in
nanny for my roommates son, in exchange for rent) so he's never really
alone.


> Many mothers find that breastfeeding is a relatively easy way to get
> toddlers to sleep.

Breastfeeding worked really great, but we just recently weaned, so its not
an option. i love nursing him, but he was getting to the point where i
couldnt sit down without him running up to me going "Nurse, nurse,
nurse!!!!" and pretty much pulling my shirt off. i actually miss it
sometimes though. they were some really nice relaxing times 9when he settled
down,lol). maybe i could teach him that nurse is for nite nite only? has
anyone else done this, and did it work? i dont mind nursing him, i just dont
like him getting all grabby and demanding about it, know what i mean?

> You could try a cradle or some sort of (safe) swinging hammock,
> or try to have him fall asleep in your lap while you rock
> in a rocking chair. You could take him for a walk in a stroller
> at naptime; he might fall asleep like that. That might
> not be as convenient for you as having him sleep in a bed
> at home, but it might be better than the kicking and stuff.

i've tried some of this, but the only thing that seems to work is a drive in
the car. unfortunately i dont drive, and my hubby isnt always home to do it
so.....
The whole rocking chair thing used to work when he was littler, but its like
he has a "that'll put me to sleep!!" radar in his head. as soon as something
starts feeling relaxing he starts fighting it. like when i sttroke his
forhead, he gets drowsy, then starts swatting my hand away, stuff like that.


> There are some good ideas on this page:
>
> http://borntoexplore.org/discipline.htm
>
> While this is written for parents of kids with ADD, the
> ideas apply to all kids IMO.
>
> See especially the part of that page that begins
> "I had just read about Kiersey's ...". (Most of the
> way down the page, the second yellow section after
> the blue heading "Method # 2: Abuse it -- Lose it", not
> the heading near the top, "2. Abuse it -- Lose it".)
> This talks about how Teresa Gallagher (the author of
> the web page) got her son to take naps in day care
> with a system where he would lose the privilege of
> using his cot if he got up. If you decide to use
> a method like that, you need enough confidence to
> be able to continue calmly applying the method while
> it seems not to work the first few times. You need
> to get across to the child that you will continue
> using that method no matter what the child does.
>
> Spanking will certainly not help get a child to sleep.

when i realised this i started this thread. i never ever wanted to spank him
ever! and it really doesnt make sense to get him all riled up before trying
to get him to sleep. total agreement with you.

> You might consider whether he needs to have a longer
> sleep at night and no nap. At least that would cut
> the struggles in half! If he's not tired, it's harder
> to get him to sleep.

:) tired is not the issue, if he doesnt get his nap he turns into a holy
terror by 4 pm . well, not really a holy terror, but suddenly gets selective
hearing and a serious case of the no!'s and other disruptive behavior, i can
tell when he gets tired by his behavior, lol, its like a little gauge on his
back.

> With my kids, sometimes naps had to be at a specific
> time. If we started trying to have the nap later
> than 12:30 past noon, it took longer to get them
> to sleep. Different kids will have different patterns.
> They might not look tired when the best time for
> the nap comes along.

i so know what you mean, if he misses his nap time it throws off his whole
day, including bed time! i found that if he misses his nap its harder to get
him to sleep at night

> Consider adding a bath into the sleeptime routine.
> Supposedly it does something to body temperature
> that promotes sleep. Anyway, I found baths were
> really useful: both to keep a baby awake during
> the bath, and to help the baby or child get to
> sleep shortly after the bath. I think the bath
> helps relax them. (Or if they splash a lot maybe
> it tires them out.)


the bath thing helpe, if i can get him out of the bath without a struggle,
lol, bath time is his favorite time of the day!!!lol

> Also try to think of things you can say as part
> of the bedtime routine. "Good night, sleep tight"
> or whatever. Things to say just before the story
> and just after. The same things every time, said
> in a very loving voice. It helps make the routine
> more routine, and signals the child that it's time
> to go to sleep.

I'll have to try that, maybe it will help.



Tank you so much for your advice and stuff!! i'll look into the website too!

Celeste
> --
> Cathy
>

[Catherine Woodgold]

"C. Gregory" ) writes:
>> Many mothers find that breastfeeding is a relatively easy way to get
>> toddlers to sleep.
>
> Breastfeeding worked really great, but we just recently weaned, so its not
> an option. i love nursing him, but he was getting to the point where i
> couldnt sit down without him running up to me going "Nurse, nurse,
> nurse!!!!" and pretty much pulling my shirt off. i actually miss it
> sometimes though. they were some really nice relaxing times 9when he settled
> down,lol). maybe i could teach him that nurse is for nite nite only? has
> anyone else done this, and did it work? i dont mind nursing him, i just dont
> like him getting all grabby and demanding about it, know what i mean?

Well, I was going to apologize for even mentioning breastfeeding,
because if you weren't breastfeeding it wasn't going to do
much good to mention it. But just possibly it was a good
time to bring it up after all. If you've just weaned, it
may be possible for you to re-start if you want. You may or
may not want to. It's up to you.

Certainly there are lots of people who nurse older children
only at the beginnings of naps and at bedtime. (Or at least,
only at those times as the usual routine. Probably most
would also nurse if a child was badly hurt or sick.) Whether
it would be easy to get into that routine or not, I don't know.

If your main goal is to avoid him being grabby and demanding
about breastfeeding, then the best course would be to
stay weaned. But it may be possible to have the best of
both worlds: the breastfeeding to make the beginnings of
naps easy, without the grabbiness.

If you decide to go that route, what I would suggest is
to decide what you'll do if he's ever grabby, and calmly
do exactly the same thing every time. For example, you
might say "I'm sorry, breastfeeding is for naptime only."
If you use the same words every time he'll get bored
of hearing it and give up asking sooner. You could use
the same response whether he asks nicely or acts grabby:
no matter what, the same answer. He would try a number
of times and eventually give up.

You might have some routine action to go with the
words: hugging him, or standing up and walking
away, or getting him a glass of water. The more
you do the same thing every time he asks, the
faster he'll get the message that you're not
going to give in so why bother asking.

I don't know how many
times he would try, though. Kids can be very, very
persistent about breastfeeding. I think you said he
was three years old? I think it ought to work fairly
well at that age. Their urge to breastfeed isn't as
strong as with younger ones, and they've already
been exposed to some rules and routines.

Since you've already weaned, maybe it wouldn't
be that hard to get him to take a compromise
(nursing only at certain times).


--
Cathy

[Catherine Woodgold]

I had said:
>> http://borntoexplore.org/discipline.htm
>>
>> While this is written for parents of kids with ADD, the
>> ideas apply to all kids IMO.
>>
>> See especially the part of that page that begins
>> "I had just read about Kiersey's ...". (Most of the
>> way down the page, the second yellow section after
>> the blue heading "Method # 2: Abuse it -- Lose it", not
>> the heading near the top, "2. Abuse it -- Lose it".)
>> This talks about how Teresa Gallagher (the author of
>> the web page) got her son to take naps in day care
>> with a system where he would lose the privilege of
>> using his cot if he got up.

I would just like to point out that everything I say
is just a suggestion. It's up to you to judge whether
it would fit well with your own personality and values,
your son's personality, your daily routine etc.
I suggested the above because I thought there was
a chance it would be useful to you. On the other
hand, I also thought it might not.

The main point behind the system she describes is
to stick with a plan. The parent decides "if the
child does this, I will do that." and then follows
through no matter what. Well, OK, after a period
of time you might re-evaluate, but not by giving
in at a moment when the child is whining or crying
or looking angelic or something to try to get
you to change your mind.

It's good to have plans like that and have the
confidence to stick to them, if your goal is to
get your child to comply with rules. It doesn't
have to be exactly what Teresa did.

A related thing that Teresa taught me is the
idea of acting as if you don't care what the
child does. (Note: this is only for the
purpose of getting the child to follow rules.
In other contexts of course you will show that
you love and care.) If the child follows the
rules, you stay at the playground; if the child
breaks the rules, you leave, but acting as if
you don't care which happens.

That works if the child is misbehaving to get
your attention or to bother or punish you or
to get a reaction out of you. I think it works
for most young children. I think it would be
a good technique for you to use if you aren't
already.

On the other hand, if you have a great relationship
such that the child cares about you in a positive
way even when the child is angry and misbehaving,
then it may work better to honestly tell the
child that his behaviour bothers you. Well,
maybe wait until he's not angry and then tell him.
Sometimes this works, and the child changes
what he does because he wants to be nice to
you.
--
Cathy

[Catherine Woodgold]

"C. Gregory" ) writes:
> :) tired is not the issue, if he doesnt get his nap he turns into a holy
> terror by 4 pm . well, not really a holy terror, but suddenly gets selective
> hearing and a serious case of the no!'s and other disruptive behavior, i can
> tell when he gets tired by his behavior, lol, its like a little gauge on his
> back.

Yes, crankiness as naptime approaches and lots more
crankiness if a nap is missed -- I've been there.

However, if he were to get into a new routine of longer sleeps
every night and no nap, then perhaps after a couple of days of
settling into the routine, he might do better. Unfortunately
I don't know how to predict this without trying it -- which
might involve a lot of problems. It would be a leap of faith.

I suppose he's at some stage of shifting from needing a nap
to not needing a nap. I think a kid can be at a transition
phase: too old to take naps, but not quite old enough
to get along without the naps. Needing half a nap.
It can be a difficult stage. Some parents get through
this by waking them up after a short nap.

I can think of two other possible advantages of waking
him up from naps: he would know you were going to be
right there when he wakes up, and he might actually
find himself fighting you because he wants to stay
asleep, which might get him thinking differently about
the whole sleep thing! Maybe you could also use
the waking-up time to get him used to being
stroked on the forehead, hearing lullabies
etc. while sleeping.

I generally didn't like waking anybody up from naps
and tended to just let them sleep.

I found that if the nap happened a little earlier in the
day it would tend to be much shorter, which allowed
them to get to sleep at night more easily.

> i so know what you mean, if he misses his nap time it throws off his whole
> day, including bed time! i found that if he misses his nap its harder to get
> him to sleep at night

Oh, dear, that's a difficult situation!
I supposed that's what my mother called being
"overtired".
--
Cathy

[Catherine Woodgold]

"C. Gregory" ) writes:
> ( is it just me or is a not quite 2 year old a little bit young to be doing
> the whole "go potty!!!" "want drink" "go potty" routine before bed? just
> curious!!)

I'm not sure what you mean -- are you wondering whether
other children that age do that? I think so. Or whether
it's too early to encourage toilet training? I really
don't know. There's a wide range of experience on that.

Sorry I got the age wrong in my other posts.

If a child (of any age) doesn't want to go to bed
and wants your attention, and can get your attention
by asking for drinks, they will tend to ask for
drinks. (Over and over and over again.) Of course,
sometimes they really are thirsty.

Maybe he's afraid of peeing in the bed. Maybe he
tends to pee just as he's falling asleep. Maybe he
can't help it. I don't know.

You can try to make it into a finite routine:
a certain number (preferably one or two) of
trips to the potty and of fetching drinks,
the same number each time.
It can all be part of the ritual you play
over, exactly the same each time, so he knows
exactly when it will be time to go to sleep.
You can figure out what you'll do if he
asks for a drink after the last drink
has been fetched: a little laugh maybe,
saying, "no, drink time is finished, now
it's story time", or giving him a pretend
drink while you also pretend to drink an
imaginary drink, quickly read an imaginary
story and then lean your head against your
hands to indicate sleep, or whatever.

Again, if you do the same thing every
time, soon he'll learn that there's no
use asking for a third drink.

You can put two large glasses of water
on a table near his bed, for him to
help himself. Or even for you to hand
to him. He may not be as keen on the
water if it doesn't gain him much of
a delay.

I think my son was about that age when,
for a while, I used to put snacks on plates
for him at the bottom of the fridge, and
encourage him to get up and get them
during naptime. (Yes, I'm thinking of age 1
now.)
--
Cathy

[Catherine Woodgold]

"C. Gregory" ) writes:
> also, biting is a big issue from time to time, and that one really bothers
> me, because he bites my roommates child occasionally (he wont bite for
> weeks, then suddenly he's a biting fool.)

Here's a post from a long time ago that I think is a
really good answer to this:

Alicia said:
>Subject: Re: Biting child
>
>I can give you my ideas without spanking, yelling or biting back. We
>had the same problem with our daughter. She didn't seem she wanted to
>hurt; she was just testing out the new chompers. She would bite me
>alot around 11 to 12 months of age. If she bited me I would make a
>really sad face put her down or stop playing with her and walk to my
>room or to the couch and cover my face in my hands like I was crying.
>I would say OUCH really firmly while I was doing this. If my husband
>was around he would add to the act by saying "Are you okay?, Are you
>Sad?, Are you hurt? Then he would come over to comfort me not really
>addressing the child in correction or anything instead he would
>comfort me the same way he would comfort her if she was hurt.
>Understand of course my daughter would watch this and sometime would
>cry like she should have been hurt. We made a point to not give her
>the direct attention but redirect her attention to the hurt parent.
>After awhile she wanted to comfort the bitten parent too. My daughter
>after a couple times of this drama would pick up that it made mommy
>sad and daddy sad. She hasn't done it since.
>
>This worked for us.
>Alicia

--
Cathy

[Catherine Woodgold]

"C. Gregory" ) writes:
> as far as the rest, i am making a concerted effort not to spank him, and it
> made me realise that i was doing it out of frustration, which is dangerous,

I think it's really great that you've realized this.

Some parents spank as part of a planned system. For example,
in one family, the kids would get a certain number of points
for not doing their chores, etc., and when they got up
to a certain number, they would get a spanking. In those
cases the decision to spank has nothing to do with the
parent's emotional state. (But if you're going to
have a system like that, why not just design a system
that doesn't use spanking?)

But in many families (and I believe in most families
that spank), spanking is a reflection mainly of the
way the parent feels. I think most of these people don't
realize this: they think they're using a system,
but in fact they don't have a system that can be
objectively described; it's more like "when the
kid does something that goes too far, I spank them."
Whether it "goes too far" or not depends largely
on how the parent is feeling at the time, as well
as partly on what the child did. Often parents
will have a build-up of frustration from several
misbehaviours in a row -- or their frustration can
be partly from things that have nothing to do with
the child.

But it's really great that you recognize what was
going on inside you at the moment you decided
to spank.

One-year-olds can do a lot of damage very quickly
(such as pulling all the books off three more
bookshelves in the time it takes you to put
the books back onto the first one).
It can be really hard keeping up with them.
Frustration is one feeling that can easily come
up. But there are other ways to express your
frustration.

One way is to tell yourself "I am going to come
up with a Plan for handling situations like this!"
and then when you have some quiet time, think
up a plan for what you will do whenever your
child does that. (For a lot of things, you can
make up a Plan before the child even does it
the first time, but if you're frustrated, it's
probably because the child is doing something
you hadn't thought of a way to handle.)
Just the decision "I am going to come up with
a Plan!" can give you a feeling that in a sense
you're in control.

There are other ways to handle frustration,
like walking out of the room. Or telling your
child "I'm frustrated!"

You're right that it's dangerous to spank
out of frustration. Here are some quotes
from "Beating the Devil Out Of Them: Corporal
Punishment in American Families ..." by
Murray Straus:

>[p. 85] "Clinical work with abusive families
>has shown that much physical abuse starts as an
>attempt to correct and control through corporal
>punishment. When the child does not comply or,
>in the case of older children, hits back and
>curses the parent, the resulting frustration and
>rage leads some parents to increase the severity
>of the physical attack and kick, punch or hit
>with an object. ..."

>[p. 86, quoting a parent] "It all started when
>Camille [age 14] slammed the door on her little
>sister's leg. Camille was in the bathroom and
>realized there was no toilet tissue. She asked
>her little sister, the 9 year old, to get some
>tissue, which she did do, and apparently her sister
>wasn't rushing out of the bathroom fast enough
>and Camille kind of pushed the door, and in the
>process, she caughter her sister's leg in the door,
>and with the child screaming as she did from the
>pain, it got me very angered ... And I think at
>that moment I lost control completely, and I went
>over and I swatted Camille with my -- you know,
>my hand, and Camille turned around and she swung
>back to strike me, which she did do and that got me
>even more aggravated. And before I know what really
>was going on, I had pounded Camille several times.
>She had run a tub of bath water to take a bath,
>and suddenly I realized I had knocked Camille
>into the bathtub. And apparently I had struck
>her in the face, which by no means was intentional.
>But she had a swollen eye, and she didn't say
>anything to me that night."

--
Cathy

[Catherine Woodgold]

Catherine Woodgold ) writes:
> However, if he were to get into a new routine of longer sleeps
> every night and no nap, then perhaps after a couple of days of
> settling into the routine, he might do better. Unfortunately
> I don't know how to predict this without trying it -- which
> might involve a lot of problems. It would be a leap of faith.
>
> I suppose he's at some stage of shifting from needing a nap
> to not needing a nap. I think a kid can be at a transition
> phase: too old to take naps, but not quite old enough
> to get along without the naps. Needing half a nap.
> It can be a difficult stage. Some parents get through
> this by waking them up after a short nap.

I apologize. I wrote that when I mistakenly thought I
had read that your son was 3 years old. Actually he's
almost 2. I doubt at his age that he would be ready
to give up a daily nap without problems (though I think
some kids do).

I have heard of children who refused to take naps
after being weaned, and were cranky. It can be
a difficult problem with ways of coping but no
easy answers. There are ways to get children to
sleep without breastfeeding, but they tend to
be a lot more difficult to put into practice.
--
Cathy

[Kane]

"Whimsical" > wrote in message >...
> "Catherine Woodgold" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "C. Gregory" ) writes:
> > > as far as the rest, i am making a concerted effort not to spank him, and it
> > > made me realise that i was doing it out of frustration, which is dangerous,
> >
> > I think it's really great that you've realized this.
>
> I realised this too!
> When my son was five I thought spanking was the answer to all my prayers.
>
> At first a sharp slap on the back of my son's leg was enough to make
> him behave, fair enough you might say, no damage done.
> However it soon turned more routine, as you say the frustration took over
> and I was smacking him more and more until he was getting smacked
> practically every day.

This is a very common progression and with good reason based on actual
human developmental phenomena.

> And the sad thing was, he was getting used to it. What initially took one
> smack to stop escalated into me having smack him 2 then 4 then 6 then
> 10 times in order to get the same effect.

I'll comment later and offer a referrance.

> His behaviour didn't actually improve, I just had to cause him more pain
> in order to stop him. Sounds pretty horrible now, come to think of it.

If it's what you know then it's the best and most responsible
parenting you can do. It's only those that continue after they know
there are other methods that need to question themselves more
carefully.

> Smacking became the first option rather than the last. I shudder to think
> just how many times I hit him.
> What made me stop was when I found out he'd bullied another child and
> I really laid into him. I had smacked his legs so hard they were practically
> purple. I vowed that I never wanted to do that to him again.
> My son is now 13 and since that day I have never laid a finger on him.
> He is well behaved and responds to non-spanking methods of discipline.

Watch the pro spank crowd try to claim that that is either a lie, or a
single anomylous occurance, rare and not possibly generalized to the
population...of course they are dead wrong. I've seen the same
sequence of events with the same outcome again and again with parents
who spanked and thought better of it.

> The moral of the story is, spanking is a quick fix, but never works in
> the long run!

I can though appear to work...and there's the rub.

Forgive my presumption, as it's rather apparent you have worked this
through and well at that, but two things. I hope you've forgiven
yourself if that was a question, and may I recommend a book?

Smart Love, by the Piepers, husband and wife, therapists, and foster
and adoptive and natural parents...well seasoned folks.

They make the point that supports the progress of more and more
spanking being required that you relate....the child believes their
beloved parent parents them exactly as they deserve and will help get
more of it, be it love and tenderness, or harsh pain and punishment.

And the offer very simple but effective ways of teaching one's child
without having to resort to punishment. Based of course on their
premise I mention above.

Thank you for your candidness. This kind of transparent communication
about this subject is extremely important.

I know a lot of folks questioning spanking come here only to find
themselves savaged by the pro spank crowd, and they leave or simply
watch the rancorous exchanges and are unable to find what they wish,
or find it and leave, with it being the wrong thing some of the time.

I encourage any that are lurking to go ahead and take the risk you did
and engage. There are plenty of folks here that will point you to good
information on the subject, and will not call you a liar or make fun
of you.

Best wishes, to you and to your precious child.

You have a lot of good company.

Kane

[Whimsical]

"Kane" > wrote in message
om...
> "Whimsical" > wrote in message
>...
>
> > The moral of the story is, spanking is a quick fix, but never works in
> > the long run!
>
> I can though appear to work...and there's the rub.
>
> Forgive my presumption, as it's rather apparent you have worked this
> through and well at that, but two things. I hope you've forgiven
> yourself if that was a question, and may I recommend a book?

Yeah, I have forgiven myself. It was some years ago now and I was
going through a bad patch at the time. Not that that excuses taking it
out on a small child of course.

> Smart Love, by the Piepers, husband and wife, therapists, and foster
> and adoptive and natural parents...well seasoned folks.

Thanks for the reference....

> They make the point that supports the progress of more and more
> spanking being required that you relate....the child believes their
> beloved parent parents them exactly as they deserve and will help get
> more of it, be it love and tenderness, or harsh pain and punishment.

I can relate to that.
When my my son was five he got little else out of me but pain.
Now I wouldn't say I ever gave him a real thrashing, but on a couple
of ocaisions I guess I came close.
When I came home from work hewould be waiting for me, knowing
that a smacking would result from whatever misdemeanors his
Mum reported to me. Not surprisingly after a while he feared the
return of his own Dad! Things got into a routine, come home, smack
back of son's legs, have tea. Day after day after day.......
Anyway, luckily it doesn't seem to have done him any harm. Kids are
perhaps more robust than we think, perhaps?
He's certainly never mentioned the spankings to me in later years.