To Spank Again?

[Concerned]

Hi group,

Let me introduce myself. I am 26 year old (single) father with a 10 year old
son.
In case you are wondering the mother didn't want anything to do with the child
after a few months.
Anyhow to get back to the point of my post, I had cause to spank my son a few
weeks ago, he had been bullying another kid at school, and as I had been
persistently bullied at school, well I saw red. I hit him pretty hard. He
wouldn't
even speak to me for three days.
This was about six weeks ago and there have been no incidents since then.
It seemed the spanking had done him some good when I heard today there
had been more bullying.
What do I do? My insinctive reaction is to give the lad a really good thrashing
but to be honest I don't think that merely hitting him harder than I did last
time
will do any good in the long run.

Help :)

[billy f]

Hi concerned
I know what your going through, my oldest son use to pick on his brother. I
see a few problems with this situation.

You spanked him out of anger because he was doing something that angered
you. A spanking is not striking a child. By just haling of and hitting him
your doing exactly what your tying to teach him not to do. A spanking is
letting the child know a head of time what your going to do, why your doing
it and doing it with a clear head. You should know how hard your going to
spank and how many swats your going to give before you do it. A second
problem I see is that you didn't follow through and spank him again. The
biggest mistake a parent can do is spank their child and not follow through
with it again if the child repeats the same behavior because they figure if
didn't work. The point of spanking is to get the child's attention and to
show them that there are consequences for their actions. Sometimes you may
have to spank a child five times for the same behavior. Eventually he will
find that it is just easier to do right and over time through life
experiences will learn why its wrong to do certain things. A spanking also
makes the child each time about what he did. The main thing is you want to
stop the behavior until he does learn why. You said that he didn't talk to
you for three days. This would indicate that you didn't explain to him why
its wrong to bully someone else. I personally will not put up with my
children ignoring me even if they are mad at me, but will instead keep
taking to them until they understand why I did what I did. I would not let
the quilt he is trying to put on you get in the way.

I would recommend talking to him about this. Let him know you were bullied
as a child and it hurt you greatly. Let him know that your very disappointed
him. Let me know that it hard for you to have to spank him, but you will not
put up with this kind of behavior. Also you want to find out from him why he
is picking on the kid. Maybe the other kid is picking on him and he just
defending himself. However the teachers are taking the other kids side. I
went though this when I was kid and I actually had to put up with being
bullied because I was afraid of getting in trouble if a fought back. I think
the key here is communication more than spanking. You child is old enough
where you should be able to work this out without spanking. However if you
find out that he is in fact the one that's in the wrong, let him know and
tell him that he will get a spanking each time you hear that he is bullying
a other child.

I would not hit harder each time, but instead have an
additional punishment to the spanking. Like grounding or no TV ext. I would
recommend using some kind of implement like a flat stick or paddle, using
the hand is worst for a child for two reasons. One you are spanking you
child with the same hand you love him with and second the hand caused little
pain especially on a clothed bottom. To make it hurt you have to hit hard
and will do more internal harm . In other words a spanking should only hurt
the skin not the muscles and bones. I hope this helps

Billy

"Concerned" > wrote in message
...
> Hi group,
>
> Let me introduce myself. I am 26 year old (single) father with a 10 year
old
> son.
> In case you are wondering the mother didn't want anything to do with the
child
> after a few months.
> Anyhow to get back to the point of my post, I had cause to spank my son a
few
> weeks ago, he had been bullying another kid at school, and as I had been
> persistently bullied at school, well I saw red. I hit him pretty hard. He
> wouldn't
> even speak to me for three days.
> This was about six weeks ago and there have been no incidents since then.
> It seemed the spanking had done him some good when I heard today there
> had been more bullying.
> What do I do? My insinctive reaction is to give the lad a really good
thrashing
> but to be honest I don't think that merely hitting him harder than I did
last
> time
> will do any good in the long run.
>
> Help :)
>
>
>

[Concerned]

"billy f" > wrote in message
...
> Hi concerned
> I know what your going through, my oldest son use to pick on his brother. I
> see a few problems with this situation.
>
> You spanked him out of anger because he was doing something that angered
> you. A spanking is not striking a child. By just haling of and hitting him
> your doing exactly what your tying to teach him not to do. A spanking is
> letting the child know a head of time what your going to do, why your doing
> it and doing it with a clear head. You should know how hard your going to
> spank and how many swats your going to give before you do it. A second
> problem I see is that you didn't follow through and spank him again. The
> biggest mistake a parent can do is spank their child and not follow through
> with it again if the child repeats the same behavior because they figure if
> didn't work. The point of spanking is to get the child's attention and to
> show them that there are consequences for their actions. Sometimes you may
> have to spank a child five times for the same behavior. Eventually he will
> find that it is just easier to do right and over time through life
> experiences will learn why its wrong to do certain things. A spanking also
> makes the child each time about what he did. The main thing is you want to
> stop the behavior until he does learn why. You said that he didn't talk to
> you for three days. This would indicate that you didn't explain to him why
> its wrong to bully someone else. I personally will not put up with my
> children ignoring me even if they are mad at me, but will instead keep
> taking to them until they understand why I did what I did. I would not let
> the quilt he is trying to put on you get in the way.

I didn't spank him agian because I didn't see the need, well until now.
His overall bebaviour improved dramatically, not just with the bullying.
I guess he didn't speak to me for three days because he was so shocked
that I would actually smack him. That was the first time I'd ever done it.
We had a pretty long discussion about bullying before the spanking.
>
> I would not hit harder each time, but instead have an
> additional punishment to the spanking. Like grounding or no TV ext. I would
> recommend using some kind of implement like a flat stick or paddle, using
> the hand is worst for a child for two reasons. One you are spanking you
> child with the same hand you love him with and second the hand caused little
> pain especially on a clothed bottom. To make it hurt you have to hit hard
> and will do more internal harm . In other words a spanking should only hurt
> the skin not the muscles and bones. I hope this helps

The spanking was carried out on his bare bottom.
And yes, it was intended to hurt him a great deal and it seemed to do so.
Why should spanking with the hand cause more internal damage than
with an implement?
It seemed pretty easy to judge when to stop.
When the bottom was red enough, I stopped :)

[Kane]

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 07:44:44 GMT, "billy f" >
wrote:

>Hi concerned
>I know what your going through, my oldest son use to pick on his
brother. I
>see a few problems with this situation.
>
>You spanked him out of anger because he was doing something that
angered
>you. A spanking is not striking a child.

Please demonstrate how to give a spanking without striking the child.

Or are you one of those folks that believes that if you call a rose by
another name it will NOT smell as sweet? That the reality is in the
name rather than the action or object itself?

Would you say then that hitting is not hitting if I call it stroking?
Or if I call it ho'oku'i it is not spanking?

It's interesting there is no word for "spank" in Hawaiian. They don't
differentiate but they certainly do spank their children. Or are you
going to accuse them of not spanking and rather hitting because that
is their word used to do exactly the same thing you described?

Or "coup" for hit, and no word in french for "spank" so they are
forced to tell the truth and call it "coup" as that is what spanking
is. And the french do spank their children...they simply call it what
it is.

>By just haling of and hitting him
>your doing exactly what your tying to teach him not to do.

And that is the truth of the matter entirely. All attempts to rename
the event, hence making it something else is an exhibit of how your
mind was ****ed with when you were a child and hit, but told it was a
spank.

And if you "spank" a child you are simply demonstrating another way of
hitting people, and denying the facts of the hitting by using weasel
words to describe it.

While sex is certainly not rape, rape IS sex, at least for one party.

And spanking is both hitting and striking.

>A spanking is
>letting the child know a head of time what your going to do, why your
doing
>it and doing it with a clear head.

What is it in a spanking that tells someone, before it happens, why
it's being done, and what is it about a clear head that will
automatically impart that one just has to be planful before they
attack another and it isn't violence and hitting?

The outcome is far more likely the child will move on in life with a
growing intent to hit others but with the demonstrated and taught, by
you, more careful planning.

>You should know how hard your going to
>spank and how many swats your going to give before you do it.

An adult is a very poor judge of how hard a child feels hit. A number
of injuries occur through this very assumption of adult determining
the level of pain and harm.

>A second
>problem I see is that you didn't follow through and spank him again.

The problem is that he chose to spank in the first place. It does NOT
develop conscience and empathy for others, but more likely feelings of
vengence and planning to get even at some point in the future. And
that leads to a continuation if not an escalation of the unwanted
bevahior with the addition it is not likely to continue was a great
deal more caution and sneakiness.

>The
>biggest mistake a parent can do is spank their child and not follow
through
>with it again if the child repeats the same behavior because they
figure if
>didn't work.

That would be true if one were out to create a potential violent
criminal who will get back by later in life taking up "spanking" his
or her children with the same minimizing and mistaken nonsense you
post.

>The point of spanking is to get the child's attention and to
>show them that there are consequences for their actions.

It is quite easy to get a child's attention without hitting them. A
failure to do so indicates an adult with no skill in parenting.

And they do not see any such thing as consequences for their actions.
They see an out of control, but faking control, adult that caught
them. The sense perfectly well that the adult is acting out from a
sense of helplessness and impotence, exactly like they themselves felt
when THEY chose to hit someone.

They see the adult as ignorant and out of control as they were when
they hit. Hardly a model to pattern themselves after.

Jails are full of this intergenerational nonsense.

>Sometimes you may
>have to spank a child five times for the same behavior. Eventually he
will
>find that it is just easier to do right and over time through life
>experiences will learn why its wrong to do certain things.

He will simply learn to either do what he wanted another way, or he
will become increasingly clever at sneakiness...the mark of the
criminal mind.

And he will take revenge at some later date, as you appear to be
doing, for what was done to him as a child.

Not only does this make criminals but it makes bullies in the present.
This victim of your meanness will find ways to hurt other children,
usually smaller than themselves.

>A spanking also
>makes the child each time about what he did.

Actually it is much more likely to cause him or her to suppress the
actual events and or morph them into a righteous attack on someone
else.

It is much more effective to engage the child in a simple exploration
of the events, encourage them to identify the triggering elements of
their attack on someone else and explore alternatives, including those
that connect to concern and empathy for their victim.

You are modeling what they did to someone else almost to the letter.
What kind of a model is that?

It's estmated that humans learn by copying others about 80% of the
time.

>The main thing is you want to
>stop the behavior until he does learn why. You said that he didn't
talk to
>you for three days. This would indicate that you didn't explain to
him why
>its wrong to bully someone else. I personally will not put up with my
>children ignoring me even if they are mad at me, but will instead
keep
>taking to them until they understand why I did what I did. I would
not let
>the quilt he is trying to put on you get in the way.

If you are cold just put on more clothes. You can't get around very
well wearing a "quilt."

But then you wear a quilt of ignorance to keep you warm, apparently.

You are raising criminals, and the better you are at getting blind
compliance the more severe is the damage to your children. The level
of self delusion, lying, reinventing events to justify and rationalize
their bad behavior is being taught to them. By YOU.

>I would recommend talking to him about this. Let him know you were
bullied
>as a child and it hurt you greatly. Let him know that your very
disappointed
>him. Let me know that it hard for you to have to spank him, but you
will not
>put up with this kind of behavior.

So the answer is to threaten him. Excellent model.

>Also you want to find out from him why he
>is picking on the kid.

You just demonstrated your unworthiness by hitting and calling it
"spanking," to the child an all to obvious lie on your part. What
makes you think he, in his pain and distrust of you now, will tell you
the truth?

The only way you are going to get others to WANT to tell you the truth
and actually do some problem solving that would change their behavior
is to have their trust. You broke it when you hit him.

And don't give us that **** of "spankin isn't hitting or striking."

If the child chose to do exactly what you did to him as you suggest
here, get a stick and strike another child on the butt with it no one
on the planet would call it spanking..well, except maybe you.

>Maybe the other kid is picking on him and he just
>defending himself.

Or maybe that is what he'll tell you when he sees how treacerous you
are, and a liar who might well at any moment turn on him and
"spanking" him, exerting even more painful force than he did against
HIS victim.

>However the teachers are taking the other kids side. I
>went though this when I was kid and I actually had to put up with
being
>bullied because I was afraid of getting in trouble if a fought back.

A near perfect example, given by you, of the minimizing and blaming
you are teaching him. YOu were spanked, obviously, and that is where
you learned the language of the sneak and liar. What is saddest of
all, since we can protect ourselves against you once we see you so
clearly exhibit this maladaptive behaviors, is that you cannot protect
yourself from your own lies.

That capacity to examine yourself and your behaviors and motives
honestly was "spanked" out of you years ago.

I'll bet you even think you are a moral person.

>I think
>the key here is communication more than spanking.

Then why sabotage the communication with pain and humilation. People
that have been hurt and humiliated by others make very poor candidates
for anything but brainwashing if they can't run away. They are NOT
open to accurate recall, with clarity of the actual events, nor
reasoning to extinguish their own bad behavior.

The only circumstances that warrant "spanking" is the hitting that
might occur to defend yourself against an attack by another.

>You child is old enough
>where you should be able to work this out without spanking. However
if you
>find out that he is in fact the one that's in the wrong, let him know
and
>tell him that he will get a spanking each time you hear that he is
bullying
>a other child.

If you've worked it out with out spanking what is the need for the
threat? It's nothing more than a test opportunity the child will take
to see if you mean it when you say, "hitting never solves anything."

Or don't you say that?

>I would not hit harder each time, but instead have an
>additional punishment to the spanking. Like grounding or no TV ext. I
would
>recommend using some kind of implement like a flat stick or paddle,

In other words you would escalate the risk of injury to the child.

>using
>the hand is worst for a child for two reasons. One you are spanking
you
>child with the same hand you love him with and second the hand caused
little
>pain especially on a clothed bottom. To make it hurt you have to hit
hard
>and will do more internal harm . In other words a spanking should
only hurt
>the skin not the muscles and bones. I hope this helps

It helps create sick human beings that will perpetuate your illness,
and that's about all it will do.

I have never failed to turn around and teach a child successfully not
to hit others, but the hardest work and the longest times it took were
inevitably with previously "spanked" children. They have a very low
level of trust for caregivers or anyone in authority.

Unspanked children are very easy to reach and teach, as they can be
taught empathy, or rather, they can have their inate capacity for
empathy, as seen in one baby crying and setting off a room full of
other babies, and that is the foundation for the development of
conscience.

Not paining them into compliance.

>Billy

Kane


>
>"Concerned" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi group,
>>
>> Let me introduce myself. I am 26 year old (single) father with a 10
year
>old
>> son.
>> In case you are wondering the mother didn't want anything to do
with the
>child
>> after a few months.
>> Anyhow to get back to the point of my post, I had cause to spank my
son a
>few
>> weeks ago, he had been bullying another kid at school, and as I had
been
>> persistently bullied at school, well I saw red. I hit him pretty
hard. He
>> wouldn't
>> even speak to me for three days.
>> This was about six weeks ago and there have been no incidents since
then.
>> It seemed the spanking had done him some good when I heard today
there
>> had been more bullying.
>> What do I do? My insinctive reaction is to give the lad a really
good
>thrashing
>> but to be honest I don't think that merely hitting him harder than
I did
>last
>> time
>> will do any good in the long run.
>>
>> Help :)
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Concerned]

"Kane" > wrote in message
om...

<big snip>

> Not paining them into compliance.

But isn't all punishment intended to encourage compliance by doing
something nasty to someone in order to stop them repeating their
offending behaviour?

Being grounded is unpleasant.
Having your pocket money taken away is unpleasant.
Physical pain is unpleasant.

But whatever form it takes, it supposed to be unpleasant. Such is the nature
of punishment. It woudn't be punishment otherwise.

When I spanked my son for bullying I deliberately inflicted a good deal of pain
on him as a punishment. It's just pain. It's unpleasant. Being sent to your room
for the evening is unpleasant too.

Once I found out he had been bullying again, I spanked him again.
More severely this time. I'm not afraid to say that I wanted to cause him much
more pain than I did the last time.
But it's all just 'punishment' whatever form it takes.

[billy f]

From what I have read and been told a lot of parents choose bare bottom
spanking over a clothed behind for the reasons you just described. Over a
clothed bottom for a spanking with the hand to be effective the spanker has
to hit much harder which can damage the spine and send shockwaves to the
child's brain. I feel however that bare bottom spanking is degrading to
child, especially older children. The use of a light paddle delivers the
same effect with less force. You know what is best for your child so I will
not try and convince you otherwise.

I'm glade that you made the decision to spank him again for this. Hopefully
you will not have to do it again. If he does do it again I would spanking
him again and keep spanking him for it until you get the message accost. It
very important that he know why your spanking him and telling him what he
can do to improve the behavior. You also like I said before want to make
sure the other child is not provoking him. This would also be a good time to
correct other misbehaviors he might be displaying. I really wouldn't
recommend spanking him harder each time as over time it could become abuse.
Instead add a additional punishment like grounding, writing sentences or
better yet a letter of apology to the kid he is picking on. Also if you have
to spank him again for something else the spanking will be less effective
unless you spank just as hard or harder.


"Concerned" > wrote in message
...
>
> "billy f" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi concerned
> > I know what your going through, my oldest son use to pick on his
brother. I
> > see a few problems with this situation.
> >
> > You spanked him out of anger because he was doing something that angered
> > you. A spanking is not striking a child. By just haling of and hitting
him
> > your doing exactly what your tying to teach him not to do. A spanking is
> > letting the child know a head of time what your going to do, why your
doing
> > it and doing it with a clear head. You should know how hard your going
to
> > spank and how many swats your going to give before you do it. A second
> > problem I see is that you didn't follow through and spank him again. The
> > biggest mistake a parent can do is spank their child and not follow
through
> > with it again if the child repeats the same behavior because they figure
if
> > didn't work. The point of spanking is to get the child's attention and
to
> > show them that there are consequences for their actions. Sometimes you
may
> > have to spank a child five times for the same behavior. Eventually he
will
> > find that it is just easier to do right and over time through life
> > experiences will learn why its wrong to do certain things. A spanking
also
> > makes the child each time about what he did. The main thing is you want
to
> > stop the behavior until he does learn why. You said that he didn't talk
to
> > you for three days. This would indicate that you didn't explain to him
why
> > its wrong to bully someone else. I personally will not put up with my
> > children ignoring me even if they are mad at me, but will instead keep
> > taking to them until they understand why I did what I did. I would not
let
> > the quilt he is trying to put on you get in the way.
>
> I didn't spank him agian because I didn't see the need, well until now.
> His overall bebaviour improved dramatically, not just with the bullying.
> I guess he didn't speak to me for three days because he was so shocked
> that I would actually smack him. That was the first time I'd ever done it.
> We had a pretty long discussion about bullying before the spanking.
> >
> > I would not hit harder each time, but instead have an
> > additional punishment to the spanking. Like grounding or no TV ext. I
would
> > recommend using some kind of implement like a flat stick or paddle,
using
> > the hand is worst for a child for two reasons. One you are spanking you
> > child with the same hand you love him with and second the hand caused
little
> > pain especially on a clothed bottom. To make it hurt you have to hit
hard
> > and will do more internal harm . In other words a spanking should only
hurt
> > the skin not the muscles and bones. I hope this helps
>
> The spanking was carried out on his bare bottom.
> And yes, it was intended to hurt him a great deal and it seemed to do so.
> Why should spanking with the hand cause more internal damage than
> with an implement?
> It seemed pretty easy to judge when to stop.
> When the bottom was red enough, I stopped :)
>
>
>
>
>

[Concerned]

"billy f" > wrote in message
m...
> From what I have read and been told a lot of parents choose bare bottom
> spanking over a clothed behind for the reasons you just described. Over a
> clothed bottom for a spanking with the hand to be effective the spanker has
> to hit much harder which can damage the spine and send shockwaves to the
> child's brain. I feel however that bare bottom spanking is degrading to
> child, especially older children. The use of a light paddle delivers the
> same effect with less force. You know what is best for your child so I will
> not try and convince you otherwise.

Is 10 old enough to feel 'degraded' by being smacked on the bare bottom?
I'm not sure. The advantage of doing it on bare skin is that I can see
exactly what I am doing. If I hit him with an implement over his shorts then
I wouldn't be able to tell whether I was hitting too hard.
Perhaps I should smack his legs?

> I'm glade that you made the decision to spank him again for this. Hopefully
> you will not have to do it again. If he does do it again I would spanking
> him again and keep spanking him for it until you get the message accost. It
> very important that he know why your spanking him and telling him what he
> can do to improve the behavior. You also like I said before want to make
> sure the other child is not provoking him. This would also be a good time to
> correct other misbehaviors he might be displaying. I really wouldn't
> recommend spanking him harder each time as over time it could become abuse.
> Instead add a additional punishment like grounding, writing sentences or
> better yet a letter of apology to the kid he is picking on. Also if you have
> to spank him again for something else the spanking will be less effective
> unless you spank just as hard or harder.
>

From what I can tell, he wasn't provoked. It was just nasty bullying.
He's grounded for a month anyway now. The letter of apology is an
interesting idea. I think I might try that. Thanks.

[Kane]

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Concerned"
> wrote:

>
>"Kane" > wrote in message
om...
>
><big snip>

I was 19 when I had my first thoughts about marrying and having a
family. I was stuck immediately with the challenge of how I would
discipline my children, and like you I confused discipline with
punishment. They are not the same.

It's been an interesting voyage of discover, through two children, two
step children, and literally thousands of the children of others, some
remotely, some hands on. But I learned the risks of the use of
punishment to teach.

And I learned that punishment is completely unecessary in teaching
children.

I'm not the first person to discover that.

Now if only we could expand that sufficiently to deal with adults. It
seems once they have had a childhood of punishment they are terribly
resistant to any learning that doesn't follow intense pain.

Ever notice how many times you have to go through pain to learn
something now you are an adult?

> > Not paining them into compliance.
>
>But isn't all punishment intended to encourage compliance by doing
>something nasty to someone in order to stop them repeating their
>offending behaviour?

Yes it is. The question is, how does that work, what are the actual
effects, and how successful is it.

Not to mention the likely unwanted effects that always accompanies
pain used for teaching efforts.

How did you learn to build a birdhouse (or other childhood learning
experience that was successful for you)? Did you dad or mother beat
you good when you dropped the tool, or burned the cake, or put too
much of something in the recipe, or dropped a stitch?

Usually we learn to ride bicycles pretty quickly. Notice that few
daddies beat their kids when they make bicycle riding mistakes.

The same applies to any other teaching endeavor, including teaching
them to replace an unwanted behavior with a wanted one.

Go back and read that last sentence again. It means that you can
rarely stop an unwanted behavior if you do not teach a replacement.

>Being grounded is unpleasant.

Some would claim that "jail" is just a period of R&R so the criminal
can have the leisure to plan their next caper. I rather think a lot of
that goes on with the grounded or timed-out child, with a fillip of
revenge to top off the delectibly risky mess the jailer has created. .

>Having your pocket money taken away is unpleasant.

Not if you are perfectly willing to engage in a life of crime with a
strong focus on methods to use that will help you not be caught as
often.

>Physical pain is unpleasant.

Yes, and that makes it then, a perfect tool for the bully in training
to use on others. As long as he or she is bigger, or smarter, or has
some power and authority behind them, this is a grand way to create
Idi Amin wannabees.

You showed him or her how to use your strength and power against
someone smaller and weaker. Perfect model......for learning to be a
bully.

>But whatever form it takes, it supposed to be unpleasant. Such is the
nature
>of punishment. It woudn't be punishment otherwise.

That is correct.

Discipline, from the latin dicere...to bring out, and punishment, from
the latin punere, to cause harm, pain or the removal of possessions.

The first is about learning. The latter about not have to take the
time or thought to teach.

I can apply sufficent pain to stop almost any behavior I wish to stop,
up to and including killing the offender with my applied force. I
would not, though, have that person in a position to learn what I
actually wanted them to learn.

In the case of children, identifying with their trusting cooperation,,
their motive(s), and with them problem solving how to get the results
they wish without resorting to voilence on another.

In other words, I teach children to be peaceful productive problem
solvers rather than violent thieves.

>When I spanked my son for bullying I deliberately inflicted a good
deal of pain
>on him as a punishment. It's just pain. It's unpleasant. Being sent
to your room
>for the evening is unpleasant too.

You are becoming boringly redundant. I don't have the least trouble
understanding pain, or that it's unpleasant. It's patronizing of you
to pretend that I do have such confusion.

>Once I found out he had been bullying again, I spanked him again.

Of course you did. I could have showed you how to stop his bullying in
with a few minutes of teaching, real teaching, not punishing.

But I can see your mindset is already firmly entrenched in punishment
as teaching and you'd cast aside anything I offered, so you are going
to have to learn it, if you want it, the hard way like I did.

But you will never be motivated to learn as long as you have spanking
as your tool available to you. So, if you care about and love your
son, the first thing to do, even if you think it will case fallout, is
to swear off punishment, and do so directly to your son, with a
heartful and genuine apology and promise to always seek other ways of
teaching him.

Punishment has so few ways of application. While teaching is a vast
storehouse of wonderous things to explore.

I'd start with a good book on child development. It will help you
understand child psychology...that is how the child functions in the
body mind complex, sees, hears, smells, tastes, feels, and how his or
her brain interprets...processes.

In fact if you want some ways in which to truly torture your child
with punishment this would be storehouse for you.

I am placing a great deal of trust in you to direct you to this
knowledge, but I have great faith in truth to created moral rectitude.
Naive if me, eh?

>More severely this time. I'm not afraid to say that I wanted to cause
him much
>more pain than I did the last time.

Of course your aren't afraid to say it. You are subject to a severe
thinking disorder likely perpetrated on you, taught to you, in YOUR
childhood by your caretakers.

Like follows like. They too were likely humiliated and hurt as
children, just as your child is, and he will do to his children or
those in his power.
>
> But it's all just 'punishment' whatever form it takes.

What an interesting throwaway statement. hell, all murder is just
murder. Should I not be concerned when I feel murderous urges and just
go ahead and act then?

Hell, bigottry is just bigotry, shall I, when I have a reaction to say
a black man that my entire lifetime of being exposed to the propaganda
of racism, not think my way out of my reactivity and do him harm?

Or are you just trolling?

Tra lah lah.

Kane

[billy f]

Hi again Concerned
Kane is one of the ring leader here that try to convince parents that all
spankings are bad. He is there to tell you what your doing wrong, but he has
not done anything to try and help you. He tells you what you need to do, but
does not tell you how to do it and what to do if it doesn't work.

Its sound to me that you have this situation under control. Since you have
already corrected him for this one. The grounding following the spanking was
a good idea since he knows without a doubt what he is doing is wrong.

Like I said if a bare bottom spanking is what you feel comfortable with then
I would continue to do it. Spanking on the legs is a good idea, but if he
ends up with any bruises are friends at cps might pay you a visit if someone
notices. I sure you do not spank with the intent to bruise, but sometimes it
happens.

I would just keep pressing the issue until you know he understands why it is
wrong to pick on other people. Let him know that you want a son that will
protect those that are weaker instead of trying to hurt them. Let him know
that bullying is something that effects people for years. You have his
attention now so not further punishment will be needed unless he keeps doing
it.

Billy

"Concerned" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kane" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> <big snip>
>
> > Not paining them into compliance.
>
> But isn't all punishment intended to encourage compliance by doing
> something nasty to someone in order to stop them repeating their
> offending behaviour?
>
> Being grounded is unpleasant.
> Having your pocket money taken away is unpleasant.
> Physical pain is unpleasant.
>
> But whatever form it takes, it supposed to be unpleasant. Such is the
nature
> of punishment. It woudn't be punishment otherwise.
>
> When I spanked my son for bullying I deliberately inflicted a good deal of
pain
> on him as a punishment. It's just pain. It's unpleasant. Being sent to
your room
> for the evening is unpleasant too.
>
> Once I found out he had been bullying again, I spanked him again.
> More severely this time. I'm not afraid to say that I wanted to cause him
much
> more pain than I did the last time.
> But it's all just 'punishment' whatever form it takes.
>
>
>
>
>
>

[billy f]

Kane all of this phyco babble sound really good. I think ever parent wants
their child to do things because they want to do it not because they have
do. However that is not human nature. There are factors of plesure over
powering what is suppose to be right as well as situations of anger. Do you
think that all men that has ever hit their wives or girlfriends ever
entended to do so? No, she likley did something that pushed him over the
edge to make him do so. How many men would hit their love ones if there we
no laws to protect women. Probably a lot more if she made him mad enough.
The fear of going to jail or having to answer to others about it will make
him think twice even though she really ****ed him off. The same with telling
your boss off. If you knew without a dout that you would not get fired for
telling your boss off would you be more likley to do so? Normaly you would
never tell your boss off right, but if he or she makes you made enough you
might do so. The fear of geting fired will make you think twice. The same
hold true to children. Without some fear of conseqents children will do
things they know they are not supose to do even if they know better. The
fear of conseqents is kind of a backup.

People have to put up with other peoples kids all of the time while the
parent waits until the child is old enough to understand why they are not
suppose to do something. With your logic everyone just has to wait and put
up with the child that their parent brought along while they spill juice all
over their floor and break their 500 lamp. When all the parent can say is
"thats not nice Megan, look what you did, tell them your sorry"."I'm sorry
she is only 4 years old she doesn't know any better" In fact people get hurn
and die from acts that children do. Children die from the acts of children.
Acts that could have been avoided if their parent taught them not to touch
and the word no. Of course Megans mom taught her all of these things, but
her fasination of them lamp over powered it. A child who is spanked and
knows not to touch other people's belonging will think twice because they
know there will be conseqenses. As the child grows older they will develop
a better understanding of why, but in the mean time lives and property will
be saved. Also go habits will be set in the childs mind since they have been
forced to do things right

[Rebecca Webb]

In article >, "Concerned"
> wrote:


> Being grounded is unpleasant.
> Having your pocket money taken away is unpleasant.

"Pocket money"... are you British? I ask because (correct me if I'm
wrong) I'm under the impression that

1. Brits don't find physical punishment as debatable as Americans do, and
2. Brits have been concerned with bullying for a long time because of its
presence in their centuries-old public school system.

Again, correct me if I'm wrong, because I get most of my info from British
film and television.


RW

--
-----------------------------------------------
"I trust, Miss Bulstrode, I can rely on your discretion."
"I wasn't sorted yesterday, sir."
http://cda.mrs.umn.edu/~webbrl/AnObedientHouse/

[jimrich]

"Concerned" > wrote in message >...
> Hi group,
>
> Let me introduce myself. I am 26 year old (single) father with a 10 year old
> son.
> In case you are wondering the mother didn't want anything to do with the child
> after a few months.
> Anyhow to get back to the point of my post, I had cause to spank my son a few
> weeks ago, he had been bullying another kid at school, and as I had been
> persistently bullied at school, well I saw red. I hit him pretty hard. He
> wouldn't
> even speak to me for three days.
> This was about six weeks ago and there have been no incidents since then.
> It seemed the spanking had done him some good when I heard today there
> had been more bullying.
> What do I do? My insinctive reaction is to give the lad a really good thrashing
> but to be honest I don't think that merely hitting him harder than I did last
> time
> will do any good in the long run.

I'm really sorry for your son that you have created such a bad
relationship with him that he has to go out there and take his
anger/frustrations out on others. That's the way it was with my dad
and brother! We had a very unhappy, frightening and abusive
relationship with our parents that they, not us, created and the
downside to all the DISREPECT and violence in our unhappy home was
BULLYING by my brother and me of other kids. It's clear to me now
that we would not have become bullies if we'd been given RESPECT and
DIGNITY at home. I don't know, from what you wrote, how you've been
raising and training your boy but, from my childhood experience, it's
glaringly obvious that your son is intensely programed to bully others
no matter how much pain you inflict on him to stop it. Our ****ing
dad was a SERIOUS BEATER but that didn't stop my brother from taking
it out on other kids. Glad my brother finally out grew the need to
take our dad's ugly violence to others.....including me!

re: "What do I do?"

you could try to do what our dad would never have done or even
considered doing since he was absoultely devoted to violent beatings!
If I were you, I'd start with trying to regain your son's friendship,
respect (not hate/fear!), EQUALITY,
closeness, companionship, admiration, cooperation, togetherness, etc.
Make you son both personally important in your life but also a
respected appreciated FRIEND! Our dad could have turned us both
around in a flash if he had just treated us like he treated his
friends and THEIR CHILDREN instead of treating us like his
disappointing little PRISONERS. Believe me, my older brother was no
timid little prisoner out on the streets and at school! You are your
son's role model, trainer, and guide so if he's out there beating
people up.....he's taken that from you or because of something you've
FAILED to teach him...and you won't be able to just beat what you've
put in him out of him now.....IMO. Our dad didn't actually teach my
brother to beat up others but dad's violence was training enough to
get started along with the murderous RAGE we both felt from dad's
abuse.

You can follow other's sadistic, insane advice to beat, beat, beat
your kid or calm him down with some love, respect and DIGNITY, either
of which he will simply copy and express elsewhere or maybe even back
to you.....let's hope it's love instead of violence!

IMO, beating the crap out of a kid to stop bullying is simply NUTS!

TRY LOVE.....IT GETS BETTER RESULTS.....I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!

jim

[LaVonne Carlson]

What a wonderful post!

LaVonne

jimrich wrote:

> "Concerned" > wrote in message >...
> > Hi group,
> >
> > Let me introduce myself. I am 26 year old (single) father with a 10 year old
> > son.
> > In case you are wondering the mother didn't want anything to do with the child
> > after a few months.
> > Anyhow to get back to the point of my post, I had cause to spank my son a few
> > weeks ago, he had been bullying another kid at school, and as I had been
> > persistently bullied at school, well I saw red. I hit him pretty hard. He
> > wouldn't
> > even speak to me for three days.
> > This was about six weeks ago and there have been no incidents since then.
> > It seemed the spanking had done him some good when I heard today there
> > had been more bullying.
> > What do I do? My insinctive reaction is to give the lad a really good thrashing
> > but to be honest I don't think that merely hitting him harder than I did last
> > time
> > will do any good in the long run.
>
> I'm really sorry for your son that you have created such a bad
> relationship with him that he has to go out there and take his
> anger/frustrations out on others. That's the way it was with my dad
> and brother! We had a very unhappy, frightening and abusive
> relationship with our parents that they, not us, created and the
> downside to all the DISREPECT and violence in our unhappy home was
> BULLYING by my brother and me of other kids. It's clear to me now
> that we would not have become bullies if we'd been given RESPECT and
> DIGNITY at home. I don't know, from what you wrote, how you've been
> raising and training your boy but, from my childhood experience, it's
> glaringly obvious that your son is intensely programed to bully others
> no matter how much pain you inflict on him to stop it. Our ****ing
> dad was a SERIOUS BEATER but that didn't stop my brother from taking
> it out on other kids. Glad my brother finally out grew the need to
> take our dad's ugly violence to others.....including me!
>
> re: "What do I do?"
>
> you could try to do what our dad would never have done or even
> considered doing since he was absoultely devoted to violent beatings!
> If I were you, I'd start with trying to regain your son's friendship,
> respect (not hate/fear!), EQUALITY,
> closeness, companionship, admiration, cooperation, togetherness, etc.
> Make you son both personally important in your life but also a
> respected appreciated FRIEND! Our dad could have turned us both
> around in a flash if he had just treated us like he treated his
> friends and THEIR CHILDREN instead of treating us like his
> disappointing little PRISONERS. Believe me, my older brother was no
> timid little prisoner out on the streets and at school! You are your
> son's role model, trainer, and guide so if he's out there beating
> people up.....he's taken that from you or because of something you've
> FAILED to teach him...and you won't be able to just beat what you've
> put in him out of him now.....IMO. Our dad didn't actually teach my
> brother to beat up others but dad's violence was training enough to
> get started along with the murderous RAGE we both felt from dad's
> abuse.
>
> You can follow other's sadistic, insane advice to beat, beat, beat
> your kid or calm him down with some love, respect and DIGNITY, either
> of which he will simply copy and express elsewhere or maybe even back
> to you.....let's hope it's love instead of violence!
>
> IMO, beating the crap out of a kid to stop bullying is simply NUTS!
>
> TRY LOVE.....IT GETS BETTER RESULTS.....I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!
>
> jim