CPS

[jimrich]

It's been my personal pleasure to offer information to kids and
parents that want to stand up to domestic violence and introduce
kinder, better and less ugly and damaging forms of discipline:

CPS Hotline: 1-800-422-4453

www.childhelpusa.org

www.nospank.net/signals.htm

sorry spankers....your days are numbered....enjoy your SADISTIC FUN
while you can!


jim

[Ron]

"jimrich" > wrote in message
om...
> It's been my personal pleasure to offer information to kids and
> parents that want to stand up to domestic violence and introduce
> kinder, better and less ugly and damaging forms of discipline:
>
> CPS Hotline: 1-800-422-4453
>
> www.childhelpusa.org
>
> www.nospank.net/signals.htm
>
> sorry spankers....your days are numbered....enjoy your SADISTIC FUN
> while you can!
>
>
> jim

So, you wish to leglislate morality. Who's? Yours?

What's next jim, repealing the first amendment? No more swearing in public?
How about mandatory religious education? What religion would you choose?

Let's face it jim, spanking is a choice for individual parents. You can no
more prove its harmful as a disciplinary technique than you can prove the
existence of ghosts or god. You have your belief, and a few short term
studies on the subject that more often than not are contradicted by their
own authors. Even those that are not are only theoretical. Like a belief
in ghosts. And just as substantial.

Congratulations on the rehetoric though, you have made it into the
discussion with the same style and flare of so many other posters to this
forum. The problem is that you, just as they, have left the facts behind.

Ron

[LaVonne Carlson]

Ron wrote:

> "jimrich" > wrote in message
> om...
> > It's been my personal pleasure to offer information to kids and
> > parents that want to stand up to domestic violence and introduce
> > kinder, better and less ugly and damaging forms of discipline:

>
> So, you wish to leglislate morality. Who's? Yours?

There are laws that protect adults from physical assault. There are laws that
legally prohibit husbands from assaulting their wives. Do you consider this
legislating morality? If not, why do you see a law that would extend to
children the same protection from physical assault that is enjoyed by every
adult member of US society?

> What's next jim, repealing the first amendment? No more swearing in public?
> How about mandatory religious education? What religion would you choose?

I hardly think providing children the same protection from physical assault
that you and I enjoy threatens the first amendment, or can compared to
mandatory religious education. This is ridiculous. The laws are already in
place. Unfortunately, minor children are exempt.

> Let's face it jim, spanking is a choice for individual parents. You can no
> more prove its harmful as a disciplinary technique than you can prove the
> existence of ghosts or god. You have your belief, and a few short term
> studies on the subject that more often than not are contradicted by their
> own authors. Even those that are not are only theoretical. Like a belief
> in ghosts. And just as substantial.

Currently in the US, spanking is a choice for individual parents, but that
spanking must not cross the line into what has been defined by the state as
abuse. This is unfortunate. Physical assault of adults does not have to be
abusive. A slap or hit to any part of the body of an unconsenting adult is
legally reportable under current law. Interestingly, studies weren't required
for these laws to be passed.

Of course, there are individuals who, for some bizarre reason, believe these
small, vunerable and powerless individuals deserve less protection than the
laws provide for adults. And these individuals demand proof in the form of
studies. Fortunately, the studies are there. Decades of well-designed
research studies have not only identified the potentially harmful long and
short term effects of spanking as a disciplinary technique, but have failed to
provide any evidence that spanking is more effective than alternative forms of
discipline that do not involve hitting, hurting, shaming or demeaning a child.
Some of these studies are longitudinal in nature. Which studies have you read
that lead you to believe that only a few short term studies exist, that these
studies are contradicted by their authors (whatever that means.) I'm curious.

> Congratulations on the rehetoric though, you have made it into the
> discussion with the same style and flare of so many other posters to this
> forum. The problem is that you, just as they, have left the facts behind.

Perhaps you could provide the facts for us, Ron. Please provide references to
those "few" studies that are only short term and that are contradicted by their
authors? Better yet, please provide references to the studies you have read
that show spanking to be beneficial over other forms of discipline, and that
show spanking to be associated with no long or short term negative outcomes.

LaVonne

>
>
> Ron

[Ron]

"LaVonne Carlson" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Ron wrote:
>
> > "jimrich" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > It's been my personal pleasure to offer information to kids and
> > > parents that want to stand up to domestic violence and introduce
> > > kinder, better and less ugly and damaging forms of discipline:
>
> >
> > So, you wish to leglislate morality. Who's? Yours?
>
> There are laws that protect adults from physical assault. There are laws
that
> legally prohibit husbands from assaulting their wives. Do you consider
this
> legislating morality? If not, why do you see a law that would extend to
> children the same protection from physical assault that is enjoyed by
every
> adult member of US society?

You equate children with adults? My my, silly woman. Children are like
rookie police officers. Until they learn the basics they are not allowed to
practice their profession on the public. Children are the same way, they
must learn the basics of life before being considered an adult.

CP is a viable means of behavior correction. The very best one known to
mankind. It uses a mechanism that is actually built into the human body and
hard wired into the human brain. Adtults know the difference between wrong
and right (for the most part), children do not. CP is ONE of those methods
that a parent must have available to them to properly bring a child from
childhood to adulthood, no matter your belief. It is even available to you.
Simply because it works. 20,000 years of proof in that pudding. Time out,
groundation, and the other non-cp methods that are commonly supported by
unthinking individuals like yourself have little background to recommend
them and rarely work as well.

There are many laws in this nation that make a distinct difference between
adults and children, simply because they are different. Children are not
adults, and adults are not children. Attempting to make them equal in this
is the height of ignorance.

> > What's next jim, repealing the first amendment? No more swearing in
public?
> > How about mandatory religious education? What religion would you
choose?
>
> I hardly think providing children the same protection from physical
assault
> that you and I enjoy threatens the first amendment, or can compared to
> mandatory religious education. This is ridiculous. The laws are already
in
> place. Unfortunately, minor children are exempt.

I hardly think that children are adults. You may, but you would also have
much to learn about the difference between them.

Children and adults are different, and therefore cannot be treated the same
under the law. Your argument is inane madam.

> > Let's face it jim, spanking is a choice for individual parents. You can
no
> > more prove its harmful as a disciplinary technique than you can prove
the
> > existence of ghosts or god. You have your belief, and a few short term
> > studies on the subject that more often than not are contradicted by
their
> > own authors. Even those that are not are only theoretical. Like a
belief
> > in ghosts. And just as substantial.
>
> Currently in the US, spanking is a choice for individual parents, but that
> spanking must not cross the line into what has been defined by the state
as
> abuse. This is unfortunate. Physical assault of adults does not have to
be
> abusive. A slap or hit to any part of the body of an unconsenting adult
is
> legally reportable under current law. Interestingly, studies weren't
required
> for these laws to be passed.

The difference madam, and you may be lost in the diferences here, is that
assault is an attempt to do physical harm to an individual. Children can be
assaulted under the law. CP is an attempt to change an unwanted behavior.
It shows that there is a consequence for a specific action. Putting your
kid in prison for stealing cookies from the jar is not an acceptable
consequence for that action. On the other hand, putting an adult in prison
for the same action is. One is a parent saying "Don't do that again" and
the other is society saying "Don't do that again". Significant difference.

One cannot logically equate children and adults under the law. Trying to
only serves to make one look ignorant.

> Of course, there are individuals who, for some bizarre reason, believe
these
> small, vunerable and powerless individuals deserve less protection than
the
> laws provide for adults. And these individuals demand proof in the form
of

Wrong. They deserve equal protection, but the difference is that adults are
believed to know the difference between wrong and right, where children are
assumed to not know that difference. Do you know the difference?

> studies. Fortunately, the studies are there. Decades of well-designed

Decades. Hmmm. Versus several millennium? Versus biology? Uhhh, no. If
we are going strictly on weight of evidence your argument looses hands down,
before even leaving the starting gate.

> research studies have not only identified the potentially harmful long and
> short term effects of spanking as a disciplinary technique, but have
failed to
> provide any evidence that spanking is more effective than alternative
forms of
> discipline that do not involve hitting, hurting, shaming or demeaning a
child.

The problem is that these studies are relatively short term. Very short.
Add to that the fact that they are most often contradictory, and
contradicted by their own authors, and you get a plethora of useless data.
But I do admire your tactic of choosing to ignore those parts. I used to
call it a knealism. I'm sure you get the reference.

> Some of these studies are longitudinal in nature. Which studies have you
read
> that lead you to believe that only a few short term studies exist, that
these
> studies are contradicted by their authors (whatever that means.) I'm
curious.

I'm not going to go over that again lavonne, it has been posted here MANY
times, so dont waste my time. If you are that interested, look it up at
google. You were a part of the discussion, so it should be pretty to find.

> > Congratulations on the rehetoric though, you have made it into the
> > discussion with the same style and flare of so many other posters to
this
> > forum. The problem is that you, just as they, have left the facts
behind.
>
> Perhaps you could provide the facts for us, Ron. Please provide
references to
> those "few" studies that are only short term and that are contradicted by
their

All the studies you have read madam ARE short term. ALL of them. Without
exception. As for the contradictions, see above.

> authors? Better yet, please provide references to the studies you have
read
> that show spanking to be beneficial over other forms of discipline, and
that
> show spanking to be associated with no long or short term negative
outcomes.
>
> LaVonne

The study I refer to madam is mankind. The greatest study of all time. It
is all around you. 20,000+ years of it. Look at the buildings in your
neighborhood, the homes, the farming communities, everywhere. There is no
place on this earth that is not a part of that study, nor is any person
exempt from it. We as a species owe what we are to the disciplinary
techniques used by our ancestors. All of those techniques. For without
them, all of them, we would still be grubbing in the mud and wearing animal
skins. Without learning the difference between wrong and right from our
parents, there is no way that mankind could have risen to become the people
that we are.

No study that you have read, or that anyone has ever written, can compare to
that. Its as the difference between ants and humans. Your studies are
still in the ant stage madam, and its going to be a very long time until
they can even begin to compare or compete. When you can acknowledge that,
when you can understand that, you can begin to understand just how silly
your argument actually is. Having read quite a few of your posts over the
last few years, I doubt you will ever make that leap in understanding, but I
have hope.

Ron