Doan
December 1st 03, 11:59 PM
And I why wonder what kind of parents can't tell the difference between
spanking and beating!!! ;-)
Doan
On 1 Dec 2003, Ignoramus15011 wrote:
> After hearing childbeaters such as some posters in this thread
> advocate beating little tots etc, I was thinking about child beating
> recently, being a father of a 2.5 years old.
>
> And I realized how much more powerful I was than my 2.5 year old son.
>
> He needs me much more than I need him, objectively. He needs me to
> provide him with toys, love, care, food, entertainment, etc. To lift
> him here and there or give him magic carpet rides on a blanket. I do
> not "need" him, aside from the fact that I love him and like his
> company etc.
>
> So, I have so many ways with which I could either punish him, or
> provide him other incentives.
>
> For example, I can threaten to not play with him. Or to take away his
> toys. Etc etc. This all, so far, is plenty enough to make sure that he
> does not misbehave too much. Beating just is not needed.
>
> I only perform his requests that are made politely. Screaming at me to
> give him something does not work.
>
> How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal society
> way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern
> principles of human society.
>
> I just do not understand why an intelligent parent should be a
> childbeater.
>
> Granted, some parents are not as smart as me and they cannot think of
> incentives better than physical intimidation. Admittedly, for such
> parents, beating their chidlren may be a better alternative than
> having them wildly rampage streets. I only admit this as a remote
> possibility, not as a sure statement that child beating is the only
> way to go for dumb parents.
>
> i
>
> In article >, Doan wrote:
> >
> > On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:03:50 -0600, toto >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially
> >> the
> >> >>> same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents
> >> see.
> >> >>>
> >> >>Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the alternatives
> >> to
> >> >>same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.
> >> >
> >> >Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
> >> >Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
> >> >were studied.
> >>
> >> Doan's only argument, of course, will be asking you to provide
> >> citations and data from peer reviewed studies that support: lecturing;
> >> scolding; *other* methods not working.
> >>
> > Wrong! I am asking for NON-CP alternatives, any non-cp alternative!
> > If spanking is as bad as you and the anti-spanking zealotS claimed, why
> > is it so hard to find an alternative that stood the same statistical
> > scrutiny???
> >
> >> He has used the infamous logical fallacy for years here (to the point
> >> he has bored his opponents to the point of ignoring him) of
> >> "slanting," that is picking only the evidence that supports his
> >> argument (the declaration by Straus) and ignoring all mass of other
> >> evidence that buries him.
> >>
> > Which are???? You meant like Straus et al (1997) in which the "no-spank"
> > group turned out to be a group that were spanked???
> >
> > "We are indebted to Larzelere et al for alerting us to the likelihood that our
> > no-spanking group includes occasional spankers. To the extent that this is
> > the case, the decrease in antisocial behavior that we found for children in
> > the "none" group may indicate an improvement in the behavior of children whose
> > parents spank, but do so only infrequently."
> >
> > Are you so blind? ;-)
> >
> >> I've never seen him, for instance, respond to the Embry Street Entry
> >> study with anything but the usual blind hysteria neurotic responses of
> >> all his pro spanking buddies, his phony declarations to neutrality
> >> notwithstanding.
> >>
> > I have! I have asked Chris when he mentioned this study to post the
> > details of this study so we can learn from it. HE REFUSED!!! I wonder
> > why. I am now asking you. Can you post the relevant information of
> > this study so we can all take a look at it? Can you tell us how many
> > kids were studied? What the methodology is? What confounding factors
> > were controlled for? Come on, Kane. Show us who the real "phony" is?
> >:-)
> >
> >> And all "positive discipline" really is is just teaching to the needs
> >> of the child, and her actual capacities at developmental level.
> >>
> > The devil is in the details. I am a pragmatic person, show me how
> > your theory work in real life situations. We have a large population
> > of kids in juvenile halls. Let's try your "positivie discipline" there
> > first and see how it go. BTW, corporal punishments are not allowed in
> > juvenile halls! ;-)
> >
> >> Doan seems to think that because those that spank also use SOME
> >> rational means of teaching their children then spanking somehow is a
> >> positive factor in learning. Talk about Cargo Cult Mentallity.
> >>
> > I want to use the same measurements that anti-spanking zealotS like
> > Straus used! If the reduction antisocial behaviors is a benefit than
> > Straus et al (1997) showed that spanking less than once a week is a
> > benefit! The cargo-cult mentality is not subjecting the non-cp
> > alternatives to the same statistical scrutiny.
> >
> >> The only reason children turn out as well as they do (and I notice
> >> more than a few don't) is that humans are so resiliant and can survive
> >> a lot of trauma. I don't consider that parenting, of course; for the
> >> child to just survive.
> >>
> > The problem with your "reasoning" is that few of the non-cp cultures
> > "survived"! Can you you name a non-cp culture? ;-)
> >
> > Doan
> >
> >
>
spanking and beating!!! ;-)
Doan
On 1 Dec 2003, Ignoramus15011 wrote:
> After hearing childbeaters such as some posters in this thread
> advocate beating little tots etc, I was thinking about child beating
> recently, being a father of a 2.5 years old.
>
> And I realized how much more powerful I was than my 2.5 year old son.
>
> He needs me much more than I need him, objectively. He needs me to
> provide him with toys, love, care, food, entertainment, etc. To lift
> him here and there or give him magic carpet rides on a blanket. I do
> not "need" him, aside from the fact that I love him and like his
> company etc.
>
> So, I have so many ways with which I could either punish him, or
> provide him other incentives.
>
> For example, I can threaten to not play with him. Or to take away his
> toys. Etc etc. This all, so far, is plenty enough to make sure that he
> does not misbehave too much. Beating just is not needed.
>
> I only perform his requests that are made politely. Screaming at me to
> give him something does not work.
>
> How would he a better person if I was beating him (the animal society
> way) instead of teaching him interaction according to modern
> principles of human society.
>
> I just do not understand why an intelligent parent should be a
> childbeater.
>
> Granted, some parents are not as smart as me and they cannot think of
> incentives better than physical intimidation. Admittedly, for such
> parents, beating their chidlren may be a better alternative than
> having them wildly rampage streets. I only admit this as a remote
> possibility, not as a sure statement that child beating is the only
> way to go for dumb parents.
>
> i
>
> In article >, Doan wrote:
> >
> > On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 07:03:50 -0600, toto >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 01:18:51 -0800, Doan > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> Yep. This is exactly so because all punishments are essentially
> >> the
> >> >>> same, but positive methods allow for the differences that parents
> >> see.
> >> >>>
> >> >>Then it should be easy to prove. Again, just put the alternatives
> >> to
> >> >>same statiscal scrutiny as with spanking.
> >> >
> >> >Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline.
> >> >Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that
> >> >were studied.
> >>
> >> Doan's only argument, of course, will be asking you to provide
> >> citations and data from peer reviewed studies that support: lecturing;
> >> scolding; *other* methods not working.
> >>
> > Wrong! I am asking for NON-CP alternatives, any non-cp alternative!
> > If spanking is as bad as you and the anti-spanking zealotS claimed, why
> > is it so hard to find an alternative that stood the same statistical
> > scrutiny???
> >
> >> He has used the infamous logical fallacy for years here (to the point
> >> he has bored his opponents to the point of ignoring him) of
> >> "slanting," that is picking only the evidence that supports his
> >> argument (the declaration by Straus) and ignoring all mass of other
> >> evidence that buries him.
> >>
> > Which are???? You meant like Straus et al (1997) in which the "no-spank"
> > group turned out to be a group that were spanked???
> >
> > "We are indebted to Larzelere et al for alerting us to the likelihood that our
> > no-spanking group includes occasional spankers. To the extent that this is
> > the case, the decrease in antisocial behavior that we found for children in
> > the "none" group may indicate an improvement in the behavior of children whose
> > parents spank, but do so only infrequently."
> >
> > Are you so blind? ;-)
> >
> >> I've never seen him, for instance, respond to the Embry Street Entry
> >> study with anything but the usual blind hysteria neurotic responses of
> >> all his pro spanking buddies, his phony declarations to neutrality
> >> notwithstanding.
> >>
> > I have! I have asked Chris when he mentioned this study to post the
> > details of this study so we can learn from it. HE REFUSED!!! I wonder
> > why. I am now asking you. Can you post the relevant information of
> > this study so we can all take a look at it? Can you tell us how many
> > kids were studied? What the methodology is? What confounding factors
> > were controlled for? Come on, Kane. Show us who the real "phony" is?
> >:-)
> >
> >> And all "positive discipline" really is is just teaching to the needs
> >> of the child, and her actual capacities at developmental level.
> >>
> > The devil is in the details. I am a pragmatic person, show me how
> > your theory work in real life situations. We have a large population
> > of kids in juvenile halls. Let's try your "positivie discipline" there
> > first and see how it go. BTW, corporal punishments are not allowed in
> > juvenile halls! ;-)
> >
> >> Doan seems to think that because those that spank also use SOME
> >> rational means of teaching their children then spanking somehow is a
> >> positive factor in learning. Talk about Cargo Cult Mentallity.
> >>
> > I want to use the same measurements that anti-spanking zealotS like
> > Straus used! If the reduction antisocial behaviors is a benefit than
> > Straus et al (1997) showed that spanking less than once a week is a
> > benefit! The cargo-cult mentality is not subjecting the non-cp
> > alternatives to the same statistical scrutiny.
> >
> >> The only reason children turn out as well as they do (and I notice
> >> more than a few don't) is that humans are so resiliant and can survive
> >> a lot of trauma. I don't consider that parenting, of course; for the
> >> child to just survive.
> >>
> > The problem with your "reasoning" is that few of the non-cp cultures
> > "survived"! Can you you name a non-cp culture? ;-)
> >
> > Doan
> >
> >
>