help me keep my son from perpetuating the cycle of abuse (very long)

This is so painful and I am so ashamed and hurt it is difficult to talk
about it but you are my family of choice and have been with me through thick
and thin for over four years now and I love you all and need you now more
than ever as my "real" family is very unhealthy for me and my son and not
there for us anyway and have caused part of the problem. I'm going to tell
the whole story so you get the whole picture so as best to understand the
situation so that perhaps you will understand how my son and I got to the
crisis point we are at and hopefully avoid judging and condemning me, please
don't do that right now.

I grew up with a mother who was emotionally vacant and neglectful to the
point that I nearly died as a child of dehydration and abused my whole life
by my father and his crazy family. I also inherited the genetic mental
illness but I also inherited the high intelligence and creativity on my
mother's side, but alas, not the money ;-) (It is my life's dream to study
the genetics of psychiatric illnesses and I am in school now pursuing that.)

But, and this is a huge one. There is something else that has been passed
on. My son watched me be abused by men when he was very young. I don't
remember a lot of my childhood so it's hard for me to relate to what all he
can remember of his but somehow over the last two years my precious little
boy has become very abusive to me emotionally and verbally and it has
reached a crisis point to where he can not live with me. He is 16.

I haven't been able to control him since he got bigger than me two years
ago. He stopped going to school regularly, even though he is very
intelligent and I taught him everything I know about computers and have
given him everything I possibly can. He says he will go back next year and
finish high school and I hope he does but he has a lot of pressure from the
underachievers we live around who do not have his intelligence or skills. I
know I haven't been able to show love for him like "normal" but I have loved
him better than I was loved and I have not physically abused him, that I am
proud of, especially for having bipolar disorder. I have done my best to
take care of my mental health ever since I recognized that there was
something wrong with me, looking for the right pills, since I was 18 and old
enough to have my own insurance since my mother believes I am demon
possessed and just need to go back to church. Just last year I finally got
the right anti-depressant and am finally awake! All the others made me
tired and fat. I could go on for paragraphs about side effects... But
mainly being asleep is the one that affected my poor child the worst, I know
what it feels like to be ignored, that hurts worst than any beating, in my
opinion.

Psychic scars hurt and I can see that I have hell to pay for what my mental
illness and the abuse that has been heaped on me in the past has done to my
little boy who stands before me an angry young man. The thing is, I am
tired and small and hurt and out of everyone, I am the only one who stood by
him all these years, why does he hate me so much that he wants to punish me
so badly? Everyday he calls me names and I tell him not to talk to me like
that but he goes on like I didn't say anything, he drives my car without a
license, he smokes pot and cigarettes and drinks and tells me the child
support that I get, that I finally get after all these years, is free money,
that I don't earn it, that I don't do anything because keeping a roof over
his head, the lights on, food in the fridge and on the table and tv in his
room and internet on his computer and gas in the car isn't work, and fixing
computers isn't anything, even he can do that. I used to have such
confidence and sometimes I still do but then I come home. My college
education means nothing to him even though he was THERE. I took him to the
University of Wisconsin with me when he was five, he went to daycare and
then kindergarten right there on campus, he got a wonderful, radical
education. I've tried so hard to expose him to literature and art and
politics and music and gave him all these computer skills that he is so
proud of. He has new clothes, I don't. His computer runs 5 times faster
than mine and has all the new stuff. I knew when I had him that I didn't
have what it takes to be a mother, much less a young, single mother and I
wanted to give him up for adoption but my mother and my aunt (the god squad)
ripped up the papers "you're not giving away our grand baby" but after he
was born it was all "you made your bed, you lie in it" "we raised ours
alone, you can do it too." "you broke God's law (fornication), all these
things that you are suffering, this is your punishment." That last one, my
mom said that to me again just last month. She wasn't being cruel, she
really believes that. And unfortunately, apparently so do I. It is not
helpful. I didn't know that I had a mental illness until after he was born.
I didn't know that it was genetic until a few years ago and when I found
that out I had my tubes tied, it stops with me.

I don't bother telling my mother any of this for obvious reasons or my aunt
as they both are already old and overwhelmed with ill health and caring for
other family members who are having health problems. I have no other
family. His father lives far away and resents his existence and burden of
child support and has his "own" family to support so I don't think he will
take him in or be a good role model either. I have been calling the foster
care people for two weeks and they have been giving me the run around while
my son gets more and more aggressive and I get more and more frustrated.
Friday I called 911 and said come get him before I hurt him but they said I
was stuck with him until he is 18 and put me through to some intake worker
who said she would mail me an appointment. I said we did not have time to
wait for the mail and she hung up on me. I started calling numbers at
random that were similar to hers and got a case worker who put me through to
her supervisor but it was voice mail so I left a message. Sunday I got gas
and my son insisted on driving and I was too tired and defeated to argue
even though he doesn't have a license and puts up a fight every time I try
to get him to get a permit, anyway we get to the store with the last of our
money and he wants pop but we only have enough for the gas and a 99 cent
mocha each. But I break down and get him the damn pop. (This is a side of
me none of you have seen before isn't it.) Anyway, I come out of the store
and he yells across the lot, "That's not the kind of pop I want you dumb
crack!" I stare at him in shock. How did it get this bad? How is it that I
haven't had a man in my life for 7 years since the last guy broke my back
and I decided to focus on my son and yet he still turned into one of "them"?
(Now someone will say "she has an us and them mentality, it's her fault.
burn the witch. I have a them and them mentality. men who abuse and men who
do not feel the need to offend. but burn away, i'm on fire anyway) How did I
screw this up, the only thing that really matters? And who is going to save
my soul?

I point out that this is the same pop I got last week that he complained
that I didn't get enough of back when we had money. This is all so
familiar. I have made these same apologetic rationalizations to numerous
abusive men in the past before and it is pointless. It has to stop. It has
to stop with me. I get up and take the pop back into the store for a
refund. The lady looks at me like I am crazy (!) but gives me my dollar
fifty back and for the reason why I write down 'ungrateful kid' and she
laughs with me. My son is irate and I hear about it all the way home how
crazy I am while I tell him how he just isn't used to me standing up for
myself and holding him accountable but I plan to do it more often. I will
pay, I will pay big for this, but I have no idea yet. His friend comes over
needing his computer fixed. Word travels fast when you fix computers for
free. He asks if he can use my computer to format his friends hard drive.
Hell no! That is taking a big risk that you will accidentally lose the data
on your hard drive, take that risk on your own computer or, better yet, take
that risk on your friend's computer. Here, take my windows '98 cd... and I
advise him how to do it. I work on my webpage a little and post some of my
poems and my newest song. I am taking physics and have a lot of studying to
do, I love going to college, I am good at it. My computer is my life. I
have been a computer technician since 1996, it is my link to this news group
and my email which is an important social need and to the Internet where I
am constantly keeping my overactive brain busy doing research learning and
helping people with my knowledge and all my poems and songs and webpage and
2 years worth of data are on my 30 gigabyte hard drive.

Monday I came home from school and turned on my computer and nothing
happened... it wouldn't boot. It was as if my son had killed my dog. For
you guys out there, imagine you had a prized Porsche that you cherished and
showed off and took care of every day and your son got mad at you, had been
mad at you for a lot of things that you just didn't know how to fix and you
came home one day and your son asked if he could drive it and you said no
and you came home and your Porsche was sitting in your drive way all crashed
up, how angry would you be? I couldn't breathe. I couldn't speak. I got
in my car and drove to his friend's house and he got in and I took him to
the woods near there and told him how he hurt me and he had no right, he had
crossed the last boundary, he no longer lived at my house and that when he
went and told everyone how crazy I was to be sure and tell them what he had
done. I did not hit him or touch him at all, he was not scared of me in any
way, (he is a foot taller than me and much faster and I can't run, I have
two compressed disks in my lower back) he was annoyed. I said I was going
to smash up his computer but he pointed out that his is worth way more than
mine and I'd just have to pay for it so what's the sense in that. He walked
back to the car before I did and tried to use his keys to get in but I got
in and went home and sat down and called 911 again. They put me through to
crisis and I told them again how much worse things had gotten and to please
find some place for my son to live because he could not live with me, he was
hurting me and I was having a hard time holding it together and I did not
want it to escalate either way. Do something! I have a counselor, he has a
counselor, it's going to take more than that. His constant abuse is
aggravating my PTSD and I don't want to be abusive to him. I've been
accused of having a victim mentality on here before, I think maybe that is
what has contributed to how he has learned to treat me so please don't beat
me up about that, certainly that will make things worse. So, the police
came to my house. I was surprised to see them as I thought I had handled it
pretty well, having gotten my point across without resorting to violence but
what I didn't know is that my son had told them that I tried to kill him.
He said this in front of my only friend, who knows me really well, but they
did not listen to her even though she is an adult, they listened to him,
presumably because although he is a minor he looks like a man. So now those
who have a history of picking on me for "having issues with men" can start
blaming this on me for that. Or maybe it's all Eve's fault, but I already
apologized for that at gunpoint when I was married to my psycho ex-husband
in front of my son when he was three, he remembers that better than I do,
I've gotten really good at dissociating (leaving your body when your body
and spirit find it necessary to take a break from each other for awhile).
And before you blame me for getting involved with abusive men, they are not
abusive at first, it is like a spider's web. Very beautiful and intricate
and silky soft and smooth but damned difficult to get out of and the harder
you try to get out of it the more stuck you are. Precious few escape. And
I have worked very hard at escaping, I attract psychos, they like my fiery
personality and my lovingness combination and I never know they are a psycho
until it's too late. I did abstain for all those years but I guess that was
too late. Well, this is the biggest pity party I've had in a long time.
Probably because I haven't had this much pain come to the surface in years.

So, the police, once again, reinforced my fear and loathing of them although
they were pretty kind and respectful when they went about it by NOT helping
me. I have learned repeatedly that the police do not help women who are
being abused by men, they only know how to punish and they are good at that
and they tend to identify with the man. I have heard contrary from others,
but this has been my experience time and time and time again regardless of
my behavior or attitude or what part of the country I am in. Because my son
lied to the police about how I reacted to him destroying my computer they
took me to involuntary psych unit. It has been a long time since I have
been treated with such indignity and it really brought out the abused child
in me to be abandoned and ignored which about sums up what it's like to be
locked up in the emergency room. It is completely useless as a health care
tool. You get no sleep, you get NO medication, they make you take off all
your clothes and wear a napkin (you might make a slingshot out of your
brassiere or something), and when you ask for help no one will listen to
you, because you are a mental patient. It brings back some very bad
memories. I had two angels. I am hypoglycemic and nearly fainted on my way
back from the bathroom because they also do not feed you on the psych ward
in the middle of the night and I also needed my pain meds but fat chance I
was even going to bother asking for that, much less my mental health meds,
ironic though that may be. But for some reason I have the survival skill of
tenacity, I asked every single nurse that walked by until one listened to me
and she got me some 7UP. She also picked up the bloody gauze that was on
the floor next to my bed that was there when I got there that I pointed out
was a hospital liability but none of the other nurses would listen to me
about it. (good thing I'm not THAT kind of crazy, sheesh, what if it had
AIDS on it or something?) The other one was the security guard watching me.
Being ignored really gets to me and I almost lost it and he came over and
said you brought that book with you (a physics book) he said he had no idea
what it was about but that if I filled my head with the book there would be
no room for my mother, my mother was NOT there. And then he proceeded to
watch over me, in a good way. I even fell asleep for awhile, in peace.

They released me to the care of my counselor's office where, thankfully,
they know me very well and they know I am not a violent psycho like my son
and the police were making me out to be and they made arrangements to
contact foster care on my behalf and let me go so I could get to class. A
taxi took me home and when I got there my car was gone. Boy was I mad, lol.
My son had run the gas out but at least it was all in one piece and my
friend brought it to me and I went to school and tried to fake normal,
that's like trying to pretend that you are not on fire. Who is this child
and where is my real son? How do I get him back? Why won't the system stop
screwing around and help us? Now what do I do?

[Betsy]

In news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01,
> typed:
> This is so painful and I am so ashamed and hurt it is difficult to
> talk about it but you are my family of choice and have been with me
> through thick and thin for over four years now and I love you all and
> need you now more than ever as my "real" family is very unhealthy for
> me and my son and not there for us anyway and have caused part of the
> problem. I'm going to tell the whole story so you get the whole
> picture so as best to understand the situation so that perhaps you
> will understand how my son and I got to the crisis point we are at
> and hopefully avoid judging and condemning me, please don't do that
> right now.
>
> I grew up with a mother who was emotionally vacant and neglectful to
> the point that I nearly died as a child of dehydration and abused my
> whole life by my father and his crazy family. I also inherited the
> genetic mental illness but I also inherited the high intelligence and
> creativity on my mother's side, but alas, not the money ;-) (It is
> my life's dream to study the genetics of psychiatric illnesses and I
> am in school now pursuing that.)
>
> But, and this is a huge one. There is something else that has been
> passed on. My son watched me be abused by men when he was very
> young. I don't remember a lot of my childhood so it's hard for me to
> relate to what all he can remember of his but somehow over the last
> two years my precious little boy has become very abusive to me
> emotionally and verbally and it has reached a crisis point to where
> he can not live with me. He is 16.
>
> I haven't been able to control him since he got bigger than me two
> years ago. He stopped going to school regularly, even though he is
> very intelligent and I taught him everything I know about computers
> and have given him everything I possibly can. He says he will go back
> next year and finish high school and I hope he does but he has a lot
> of pressure from the underachievers we live around who do not have
> his intelligence or skills. I know I haven't been able to show love
> for him like "normal" but I have loved him better than I was loved
> and I have not physically abused him, that I am proud of, especially
> for having bipolar disorder. I have done my best to take care of my
> mental health ever since I recognized that there was something wrong
> with me, looking for the right pills, since I was 18 and old enough
> to have my own insurance since my mother believes I am demon
> possessed and just need to go back to church. Just last year I
> finally got the right anti-depressant and am finally awake! All the
> others made me tired and fat. I could go on for paragraphs about
> side effects... But mainly being asleep is the one that affected my
> poor child the worst, I know what it feels like to be ignored, that
> hurts worst than any beating, in my opinion.
>
> Psychic scars hurt and I can see that I have hell to pay for what my
> mental illness and the abuse that has been heaped on me in the past
> has done to my little boy who stands before me an angry young man.
> The thing is, I am tired and small and hurt and out of everyone, I am
> the only one who stood by him all these years, why does he hate me so
> much that he wants to punish me so badly? Everyday he calls me names
> and I tell him not to talk to me like that but he goes on like I
> didn't say anything, he drives my car without a license, he smokes
> pot and cigarettes and drinks and tells me the child support that I
> get, that I finally get after all these years, is free money, that I
> don't earn it, that I don't do anything because keeping a roof over
> his head, the lights on, food in the fridge and on the table and tv
> in his room and internet on his computer and gas in the car isn't
> work, and fixing computers isn't anything, even he can do that. I
> used to have such confidence and sometimes I still do but then I come
> home. My college education means nothing to him even though he was
> THERE. I took him to the University of Wisconsin with me when he was
> five, he went to daycare and then kindergarten right there on campus,
> he got a wonderful, radical education. I've tried so hard to expose
> him to literature and art and politics and music and gave him all
> these computer skills that he is so proud of. He has new clothes, I
> don't. His computer runs 5 times faster than mine and has all the
> new stuff. I knew when I had him that I didn't have what it takes to
> be a mother, much less a young, single mother and I wanted to give
> him up for adoption but my mother and my aunt (the god squad) ripped
> up the papers "you're not giving away our grand baby" but after he
> was born it was all "you made your bed, you lie in it" "we raised
> ours alone, you can do it too." "you broke God's law (fornication),
> all these things that you are suffering, this is your punishment."
> That last one, my mom said that to me again just last month. She
> wasn't being cruel, she really believes that. And unfortunately,
> apparently so do I. It is not helpful. I didn't know that I had a
> mental illness until after he was born. I didn't know that it was
> genetic until a few years ago and when I found that out I had my
> tubes tied, it stops with me.
>
> I don't bother telling my mother any of this for obvious reasons or
> my aunt as they both are already old and overwhelmed with ill health
> and caring for other family members who are having health problems.
> I have no other family. His father lives far away and resents his
> existence and burden of child support and has his "own" family to
> support so I don't think he will take him in or be a good role model
> either. I have been calling the foster care people for two weeks and
> they have been giving me the run around while my son gets more and
> more aggressive and I get more and more frustrated. Friday I called
> 911 and said come get him before I hurt him but they said I was stuck
> with him until he is 18 and put me through to some intake worker who
> said she would mail me an appointment. I said we did not have time
> to wait for the mail and she hung up on me. I started calling
> numbers at random that were similar to hers and got a case worker who
> put me through to her supervisor but it was voice mail so I left a
> message. Sunday I got gas and my son insisted on driving and I was
> too tired and defeated to argue even though he doesn't have a license
> and puts up a fight every time I try to get him to get a permit,
> anyway we get to the store with the last of our money and he wants
> pop but we only have enough for the gas and a 99 cent mocha each.
> But I break down and get him the damn pop. (This is a side of me
> none of you have seen before isn't it.) Anyway, I come out of the
> store and he yells across the lot, "That's not the kind of pop I want
> you dumb crack!" I stare at him in shock. How did it get this bad?
> How is it that I haven't had a man in my life for 7 years since the
> last guy broke my back and I decided to focus on my son and yet he
> still turned into one of "them"? (Now someone will say "she has an us
> and them mentality, it's her fault. burn the witch. I have a them
> and them mentality. men who abuse and men who do not feel the need to
> offend. but burn away, i'm on fire anyway) How did I screw this up,
> the only thing that really matters? And who is going to save my
> soul?
>
> I point out that this is the same pop I got last week that he
> complained that I didn't get enough of back when we had money. This
> is all so familiar. I have made these same apologetic
> rationalizations to numerous abusive men in the past before and it is
> pointless. It has to stop. It has to stop with me. I get up and
> take the pop back into the store for a refund. The lady looks at me
> like I am crazy (!) but gives me my dollar fifty back and for the
> reason why I write down 'ungrateful kid' and she laughs with me. My
> son is irate and I hear about it all the way home how crazy I am
> while I tell him how he just isn't used to me standing up for myself
> and holding him accountable but I plan to do it more often. I will
> pay, I will pay big for this, but I have no idea yet. His friend
> comes over needing his computer fixed. Word travels fast when you
> fix computers for free. He asks if he can use my computer to format
> his friends hard drive. Hell no! That is taking a big risk that you
> will accidentally lose the data on your hard drive, take that risk on
> your own computer or, better yet, take that risk on your friend's
> computer. Here, take my windows '98 cd... and I advise him how to do
> it. I work on my webpage a little and post some of my poems and my
> newest song. I am taking physics and have a lot of studying to do, I
> love going to college, I am good at it. My computer is my life. I
> have been a computer technician since 1996, it is my link to this
> news group and my email which is an important social need and to the
> Internet where I am constantly keeping my overactive brain busy doing
> research learning and helping people with my knowledge and all my
> poems and songs and webpage and 2 years worth of data are on my 30
> gigabyte hard drive.
>
> Monday I came home from school and turned on my computer and nothing
> happened... it wouldn't boot. It was as if my son had killed my dog.
> For you guys out there, imagine you had a prized Porsche that you
> cherished and showed off and took care of every day and your son got
> mad at you, had been mad at you for a lot of things that you just
> didn't know how to fix and you came home one day and your son asked
> if he could drive it and you said no and you came home and your
> Porsche was sitting in your drive way all crashed up, how angry would
> you be? I couldn't breathe. I couldn't speak. I got in my car and
> drove to his friend's house and he got in and I took him to the woods
> near there and told him how he hurt me and he had no right, he had
> crossed the last boundary, he no longer lived at my house and that
> when he went and told everyone how crazy I was to be sure and tell
> them what he had done. I did not hit him or touch him at all, he was
> not scared of me in any way, (he is a foot taller than me and much
> faster and I can't run, I have two compressed disks in my lower back)
> he was annoyed. I said I was going to smash up his computer but he
> pointed out that his is worth way more than mine and I'd just have to
> pay for it so what's the sense in that. He walked back to the car
> before I did and tried to use his keys to get in but I got in and
> went home and sat down and called 911 again. They put me through to
> crisis and I told them again how much worse things had gotten and to
> please find some place for my son to live because he could not live
> with me, he was hurting me and I was having a hard time holding it
> together and I did not want it to escalate either way. Do something!
> I have a counselor, he has a counselor, it's going to take more than
> that. His constant abuse is aggravating my PTSD and I don't want to
> be abusive to him. I've been accused of having a victim mentality on
> here before, I think maybe that is what has contributed to how he has
> learned to treat me so please don't beat me up about that, certainly
> that will make things worse. So, the police came to my house. I was
> surprised to see them as I thought I had handled it pretty well,
> having gotten my point across without resorting to violence but what
> I didn't know is that my son had told them that I tried to kill him.
> He said this in front of my only friend, who knows me really well,
> but they did not listen to her even though she is an adult, they
> listened to him, presumably because although he is a minor he looks
> like a man. So now those who have a history of picking on me for
> "having issues with men" can start blaming this on me for that. Or
> maybe it's all Eve's fault, but I already apologized for that at
> gunpoint when I was married to my psycho ex-husband in front of my
> son when he was three, he remembers that better than I do, I've
> gotten really good at dissociating (leaving your body when your body
> and spirit find it necessary to take a break from each other for
> awhile). And before you blame me for getting involved with abusive
> men, they are not abusive at first, it is like a spider's web. Very
> beautiful and intricate and silky soft and smooth but damned
> difficult to get out of and the harder you try to get out of it the
> more stuck you are. Precious few escape. And I have worked very
> hard at escaping, I attract psychos, they like my fiery personality
> and my lovingness combination and I never know they are a psycho
> until it's too late. I did abstain for all those years but I guess
> that was too late. Well, this is the biggest pity party I've had in
> a long time. Probably because I haven't had this much pain come to
> the surface in years.
>
> So, the police, once again, reinforced my fear and loathing of them
> although they were pretty kind and respectful when they went about it
> by NOT helping me. I have learned repeatedly that the police do not
> help women who are being abused by men, they only know how to punish
> and they are good at that and they tend to identify with the man. I
> have heard contrary from others, but this has been my experience time
> and time and time again regardless of my behavior or attitude or what
> part of the country I am in. Because my son lied to the police about
> how I reacted to him destroying my computer they took me to
> involuntary psych unit. It has been a long time since I have been
> treated with such indignity and it really brought out the abused
> child in me to be abandoned and ignored which about sums up what it's
> like to be locked up in the emergency room. It is completely useless
> as a health care tool. You get no sleep, you get NO medication, they
> make you take off all your clothes and wear a napkin (you might make
> a slingshot out of your brassiere or something), and when you ask for
> help no one will listen to you, because you are a mental patient. It
> brings back some very bad memories. I had two angels. I am
> hypoglycemic and nearly fainted on my way back from the bathroom
> because they also do not feed you on the psych ward in the middle of
> the night and I also needed my pain meds but fat chance I was even
> going to bother asking for that, much less my mental health meds,
> ironic though that may be. But for some reason I have the survival
> skill of tenacity, I asked every single nurse that walked by until
> one listened to me and she got me some 7UP. She also picked up the
> bloody gauze that was on the floor next to my bed that was there when
> I got there that I pointed out was a hospital liability but none of
> the other nurses would listen to me about it. (good thing I'm not
> THAT kind of crazy, sheesh, what if it had AIDS on it or something?)
> The other one was the security guard watching me. Being ignored
> really gets to me and I almost lost it and he came over and said you
> brought that book with you (a physics book) he said he had no idea
> what it was about but that if I filled my head with the book there
> would be no room for my mother, my mother was NOT there. And then he
> proceeded to watch over me, in a good way. I even fell asleep for
> awhile, in peace.
>
> They released me to the care of my counselor's office where,
> thankfully, they know me very well and they know I am not a violent
> psycho like my son and the police were making me out to be and they
> made arrangements to contact foster care on my behalf and let me go
> so I could get to class. A taxi took me home and when I got there my
> car was gone. Boy was I mad, lol. My son had run the gas out but at
> least it was all in one piece and my friend brought it to me and I
> went to school and tried to fake normal, that's like trying to
> pretend that you are not on fire. Who is this child and where is my
> real son? How do I get him back? Why won't the system stop screwing
> around and help us? Now what do I do?


Unfortunately, my opinion is that foster care will be of no benefit to your
son. You say he has a counselor, what are they doing? Seriously, if things
are perpetuation, the counselor sounds like he/she is not doing his/her job.
All I can say regarding some of your son's behavior is this: What
consequences have occurred? From what I am reading, you are very good at
telling your son how angry or upset or disappointed you are. That is not
enough in many cases. He destroyed your computer, you tell him you are
hurt. What else did you do? Did you remove HIS computer which, he pointed
out, YOU paid for; so in essence it is yours? Have there been priveleges
removed for misbehavior? He did not get this way overnight, nor did he
become this way just from seeing you abused. You set limits, but it sounds
like you didn't enforce them. It also sounds to me like your son might want
a little more firmness. He can walk all over you, and he knows it. He may
have some of his own mental illness. As you said, many times it is
inherited, and he may have it. It didn't stop when you had your tubes tied,
because you already had your son. Keep pushing with counselors, and the
state, and whatever agencies are available. Keep trying to get him
evaluated. He may need anger management. To be honest, my mother would say
he needs a "swat on his backside." I do not have any advice to offer, other
than what I see, which doesn't really help now. Keep working on it. You
have done your best, but one thing you must do, for yourself, is really look
at things, so you can find where your responsibility lies. Blaming
everything, or most everything on a cycle of abuse is not the answer. You
had some (a LOT) input into your son's behavior. Even a few years away from
abusive relationships can be enough to turn opinions around. You may still
be able to do this, but you have to get strong in yourself. Until you do
that, anyone and everyone will be able to "make you feel down." Tell
yourself you are a good person, you deserve respect. Keep doing that every
day, several times a day if needed. Once YOU believe that, you can instill
that into others. Follow through with things as well. It sounds to me like
you gave your son a lot, but didn't expect much in return. My son has a
computer of his own, same speed and "goodies" as mine. But he can not
access it. It is a privelege, not a right. It is MINE, not his. He has
use of it for school work, and games when chores are completed. My mother
tells me I am too hard on him. I don't believe so. Get strong in you, so
you can be strong with others. That is the hardest thing to do, but so
worth it. Good luck to you and your son.

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[Tiffany]

> wrote in message news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01...
> This is so painful and I am so ashamed and hurt it is difficult to talk


Snipped

Continue trying like hell to get help for him. Foster care may not be the
best choice long run but at this point, it might be best temporarily. You
might want to tape some conversations where your son does become abusive as
proof. With your disorder and now him already saying you tried to kill him,
they are going to side with him. If things are getting so bad and you think
it might be hard to not abuse him, throw him out of the house. Lock the
doors, hide the car, get a friend to hang out with you, preferably a large
male friend. I am sure you want to help him but I doubt you can. You are his
mom and somewhere along the line he has lost total respect for you. Always
let him know you love him but you can't help him. This most be the hardest
thing for a mother. Have you tried standing up to him, not backing down? His
freaking out about soda? He would have been wearing that soda plus some.
Stand strong, you ARE the boss, not him. No matter how many wrongs you think
you have done to him there are probably million rights. If you show weakness
at this point, his abuse will become much worse. You need to get him away
from you.

Betsy wrote:
> In news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01,

> Unfortunately, my opinion is that foster care will be of no benefit
> to your son. You say he has a counselor, what are they doing?

We go to the county mental health facility for that and they are not very
helpful. My "case worker" rarely returns my calls and loses things like
faxes and signed releases and other important paper work and fails to call
me back to schedule appointments, especially now when I need him most. My
sons counselor has not returned my calls all week. I get medication
management that is very good, however. My psychiatrist believes in me and
has been my hero more than once and treats me like a peer.

> Seriously, if things are perpetuation, the counselor sounds like
> he/she is not doing his/her job.

That is because she is there more to be a sounding board for my poor, victim
son who has had it so hard living with a mentally ill mother and all
mentally ill people are violent, right?

All I can say regarding some of your
> son's behavior is this: What consequences have occurred?

I never learned this as a child or as an adult. I think I hate to punish my
kid because we have been already "punished" so much just for existing, from
my point of view. Society takes a punitive attitude toward mothers on
welfare and we were on welfare a lot and homeless a lot until I got the help
that I needed to think clearly and use the intelligence and creativity that
goes along with this bipolar brain.

From what
> I am reading, you are very good at telling your son how angry or
> upset or disappointed you are. That is not enough in many cases. He
> destroyed your computer, you tell him you are hurt. What else did
> you do? Did you remove HIS computer which, he pointed out, YOU paid
> for; so in essence it is yours?

For the first time in his life, yes I did. I combined parts from his and
parts from mine and built a new one for myself. If he wants a computer for
himself he will have to go get a job. Thing is, he has the skills to get a
really good job too, if we lived in a better town.

Have there been priveleges removed
> for misbehavior? He did not get this way overnight, nor did he
> become this way just from seeing you abused. You set limits, but it
> sounds like you didn't enforce them. It also sounds to me like your
> son might want a little more firmness. He can walk all over you, and
> he knows it.

This is part of the result of living with mood swings, dissociation, the fog
of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress disorder. And
it is the result of simply not knowing how to set limits and normal
consequences when all you've ever lived in is a war zone. I've read books
about how to do it and even went to Parents Anonymous when he was little but
I've never seen it role modeled. I always fantasized about some church
family taking me in and teaching me how to parent but it never happened. I
also fantasized about marrying a wonderful, normal man who would be a good
husband to me and love me and be a good father to my son like happened for
so many of my other friends but that didn't happen either.

He may have some of his own mental illness. As you
> said, many times it is inherited, and he may have it.

He doesn't have bipolar disorder. He may be exhibiting symptoms related to
his use of marijuana though, I don't know, I don't use drugs. For me, drugs
would be redundant.

It didn't stop
> when you had your tubes tied, because you already had your son.

Yes, it did.

Keep
> pushing with counselors, and the state, and whatever agencies are
> available. Keep trying to get him evaluated. He may need anger
> management. To be honest, my mother would say he needs a "swat on
> his backside."

At this point they are reacting as if I am the one with the problem. I am
angry at the police for believing a lying teenager over two adult women at
that house who told them that I would never try to kill my son. Then the
police came back the next day to "warn" my son that "they" let me out and
they didn't know why and if I came back and tried to harm him to call 911 to
which my ADULT friend replied that my son was the one who hurt me but the
police ignored her. And I am angry at the child services agency for
ignoring my pleas for help all week and for then assigning me to a case
worker who is on vacation in New York until July 21!!! It's a good thing my
meds work because the system does not. I will persist, my son is worth it.

I do not have any advice to offer, other than what I
> see, which doesn't really help now. Keep working on it. You have
> done your best, but one thing you must do, for yourself, is really
> look at things, so you can find where your responsibility lies.

I tried to do that, even if I was sarcastic.

> Blaming everything, or most everything on a cycle of abuse is not the
> answer. You had some (a LOT) input into your son's behavior. Even a
> few years away from abusive relationships can be enough to turn
> opinions around.

What part of SEVEN years of abstinence did you not hear me say? Then I
started dating again and the guy I really liked turned out to be very bad
news. So I gave up, obviously I'm not ready and I'm in therapy at the YWCA.

You may still be able to do this, but you have to
> get strong in yourself. Until you do that, anyone and everyone will
> be able to "make you feel down." Tell yourself you are a good
> person, you deserve respect. Keep doing that every day, several
> times a day if needed.

This is actually painful for me to do. I wrote a song about it. "I am ice
and your sunlight is breaking me..."

Could be worse. Johnny Cash's new song (he didn't write it) goes, "I hurt
myself today, to see if I still feel..." at least I don't do that!

Once YOU believe that, you can instill that
> into others. Follow through with things as well. It sounds to me
> like you gave your son a lot, but didn't expect much in return.

As he became a man I began to treat him like a man, with fear. I saw this
coming years ago and actually my aunt did try to help by taking him in to
her house at the time but her extreme religious views were a huge problem
and she treats men like they are gods. I remember saying something like
maybe I should have moved in with her and had somebody doing my laundry and
cooking me pork chops! But of course that would not have happened, I am
just a girl in her eyes and would have been put to work regardless of my
back injury or mood disorder. Needless to say he missed his freedom and it
was too crowded there and he didn't like how she kept letting her adult sons
use his personal stuff without his permission (her children didn't turn out
so good and she won't listen to me or help me. So it built up to this
point.

My
> son has a computer of his own, same speed and "goodies" as mine. But
> he can not access it. It is a privelege, not a right. It is MINE,
> not his. He has use of it for school work, and games when chores are
> completed. My mother tells me I am too hard on him. I don't believe
> so.

Well, yeah, but for us the computer is a much larger part of our lives as we
are computer technicians. I wanted him to have skills he could always get
work with and you get those skills with hands on experience. Also,
computers as a hobby is something that he would have in common with middle
class kids besides pot.

Get strong in you, so you can be strong with others. That is
> the hardest thing to do, but so worth it. Good luck to you and your
> son.
>
> Betsy

thank you.

Tiffany wrote:

> Continue trying like hell to get help for him. Foster care may not be
> the best choice long run but at this point, it might be best
> temporarily.

That is my hope.

You might want to tape some conversations where your son
> does become abusive as proof.

Very good idea.

With your disorder and now him already
> saying you tried to kill him, they are going to side with him.

That about sums it up.

If
> things are getting so bad and you think it might be hard to not abuse
> him, throw him out of the house. Lock the doors, hide the car, get a
> friend to hang out with you, preferably a large male friend.

I have no such friend it turns out. and my dog is a wimpy little cocker
spaniel, lol.

I am
> sure you want to help him but I doubt you can. You are his mom and
> somewhere along the line he has lost total respect for you.

Which is very sad but also about sums it up.

Always
> let him know you love him but you can't help him. This most be the
> hardest thing for a mother. Have you tried standing up to him, not
> backing down?

Yeah, then he got revenge the next day by destroying the thing most precious
to me.

His freaking out about soda? He would have been wearing
> that soda plus some.

And if you were a mental patient you would be in the psych unit for being
violent to a minor. Especially if you did it in public, like right there at
the gas station. Even though the little **** deserved it. Even though the
police routinely behave much more violently, to mental patients.

Stand strong, you ARE the boss, not him. No
> matter how many wrongs you think you have done to him there are
> probably million rights. If you show weakness at this point, his
> abuse will become much worse. You need to get him away from you.

I know that I need to get him away from me. He is routinely triggering my
PTSD. Much of what he is doing is just being a teenager but he has gone way
past that point now. I see the child services lady today to beg her to put
him in foster care.

thank you.

[Tiffany]

> wrote in message news:LEARa.82710$Ph3.10254@sccrnsc04...
> Tiffany wrote:
>
> > Continue trying like hell to get help for him. Foster care may not be
> > the best choice long run but at this point, it might be best
> > temporarily.
>
> That is my hope.
>
> You might want to tape some conversations where your son
> > does become abusive as proof.
>
> Very good idea.
>
> With your disorder and now him already
> > saying you tried to kill him, they are going to side with him.
>
> That about sums it up.
>
> If
> > things are getting so bad and you think it might be hard to not abuse
> > him, throw him out of the house. Lock the doors, hide the car, get a
> > friend to hang out with you, preferably a large male friend.
>
> I have no such friend it turns out. and my dog is a wimpy little cocker
> spaniel, lol.

Oh you have one of those dogs that get all excited and pees all over! :)
>
> I am
> > sure you want to help him but I doubt you can. You are his mom and
> > somewhere along the line he has lost total respect for you.
>
> Which is very sad but also about sums it up.

It is sad. There are no males role models for him to talk to? How about
something like that army guy that yells at the kids on tv talk shows???
>
> Always
> > let him know you love him but you can't help him. This most be the
> > hardest thing for a mother. Have you tried standing up to him, not
> > backing down?
>
> Yeah, then he got revenge the next day by destroying the thing most
precious
> to me.

Thats ok..... now he has no PC..... he will learn to think before he reacts.
Stay strong. All fails and he does something to your pc again, you can
always get online to check emails and stuff at the library.
>
> His freaking out about soda? He would have been wearing
> > that soda plus some.
>
> And if you were a mental patient you would be in the psych unit for being
> violent to a minor. Especially if you did it in public, like right there
at
> the gas station. Even though the little **** deserved it. Even though
the
> police routinely behave much more violently, to mental patients.

lol... i know. mental patient or not, someone would have something to say
seeing a mom tdump a soda on a kid.
>
> Stand strong, you ARE the boss, not him. No
> > matter how many wrongs you think you have done to him there are
> > probably million rights. If you show weakness at this point, his
> > abuse will become much worse. You need to get him away from you.
>
> I know that I need to get him away from me. He is routinely triggering my
> PTSD. Much of what he is doing is just being a teenager but he has gone
way
> past that point now. I see the child services lady today to beg her to
put
> him in foster care.
>
> thank you.
>
>

no thanks is necessary.

[Betsy]

In news:hvARa.83747$H17.25802@sccrnsc02,
> typed:
> Betsy wrote:
>> In news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01,
>

>> Blaming everything, or most everything on a cycle of abuse is not the
>> answer. You had some (a LOT) input into your son's behavior. Even a
>> few years away from abusive relationships can be enough to turn
>> opinions around.
>
> What part of SEVEN years of abstinence did you not hear me say? Then
> I started dating again and the guy I really liked turned out to be
> very bad news. So I gave up, obviously I'm not ready and I'm in
> therapy at the YWCA.
>

Apparently, I am not any help in this situation. My apologies for wasting
time and space. Since I have nothing of value to offer I will shut up now.
I do wish you the best, and hope everything works out for you

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[CME]

> wrote in message news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01...
> This is so painful and I am so ashamed and hurt it is difficult to talk
> about it but you are my family of choice and have been with me through
thick
> and thin for over four years now and I love you all and need you now more
> than ever as my "real" family is very unhealthy for me and my son and not
> there for us anyway and have caused part of the problem. I'm going to
tell
> the whole story so you get the whole picture so as best to understand the
> situation so that perhaps you will understand how my son and I got to the
> crisis point we are at and hopefully avoid judging and condemning me,
please
> don't do that right now.
>
> I grew up with a mother who was emotionally vacant and neglectful to the
> point that I nearly died as a child of dehydration and abused my whole
life
> by my father and his crazy family. I also inherited the genetic mental
> illness but I also inherited the high intelligence and creativity on my
> mother's side, but alas, not the money ;-) (It is my life's dream to
study
> the genetics of psychiatric illnesses and I am in school now pursuing
that.)
>
> But, and this is a huge one. There is something else that has been passed
> on. My son watched me be abused by men when he was very young. I don't
> remember a lot of my childhood so it's hard for me to relate to what all
he
> can remember of his but somehow over the last two years my precious little
> boy has become very abusive to me emotionally and verbally and it has
> reached a crisis point to where he can not live with me. He is 16.
>
> I haven't been able to control him since he got bigger than me two years
> ago. He stopped going to school regularly, even though he is very
> intelligent and I taught him everything I know about computers and have
> given him everything I possibly can. He says he will go back next year and
> finish high school and I hope he does but he has a lot of pressure from
the
> underachievers we live around who do not have his intelligence or skills.
I
> know I haven't been able to show love for him like "normal" but I have
loved
> him better than I was loved and I have not physically abused him, that I
am
> proud of, especially for having bipolar disorder. I have done my best to
> take care of my mental health ever since I recognized that there was
> something wrong with me, looking for the right pills, since I was 18 and
old
> enough to have my own insurance since my mother believes I am demon
> possessed and just need to go back to church. Just last year I finally
got
> the right anti-depressant and am finally awake! All the others made me
> tired and fat. I could go on for paragraphs about side effects... But
> mainly being asleep is the one that affected my poor child the worst, I
know
> what it feels like to be ignored, that hurts worst than any beating, in my
> opinion.
>
> Psychic scars hurt and I can see that I have hell to pay for what my
mental
> illness and the abuse that has been heaped on me in the past has done to
my
> little boy who stands before me an angry young man. The thing is, I am
> tired and small and hurt and out of everyone, I am the only one who stood
by
> him all these years, why does he hate me so much that he wants to punish
me
> so badly? Everyday he calls me names and I tell him not to talk to me
like
> that but he goes on like I didn't say anything, he drives my car without a
> license, he smokes pot and cigarettes and drinks and tells me the child
> support that I get, that I finally get after all these years, is free
money,
> that I don't earn it, that I don't do anything because keeping a roof
over
> his head, the lights on, food in the fridge and on the table and tv in his
> room and internet on his computer and gas in the car isn't work, and
fixing
> computers isn't anything, even he can do that. I used to have such
> confidence and sometimes I still do but then I come home. My college
> education means nothing to him even though he was THERE. I took him to
the
> University of Wisconsin with me when he was five, he went to daycare and
> then kindergarten right there on campus, he got a wonderful, radical
> education. I've tried so hard to expose him to literature and art and
> politics and music and gave him all these computer skills that he is so
> proud of. He has new clothes, I don't. His computer runs 5 times faster
> than mine and has all the new stuff. I knew when I had him that I didn't
> have what it takes to be a mother, much less a young, single mother and I
> wanted to give him up for adoption but my mother and my aunt (the god
squad)
> ripped up the papers "you're not giving away our grand baby" but after he
> was born it was all "you made your bed, you lie in it" "we raised ours
> alone, you can do it too." "you broke God's law (fornication), all these
> things that you are suffering, this is your punishment." That last one,
my
> mom said that to me again just last month. She wasn't being cruel, she
> really believes that. And unfortunately, apparently so do I. It is not
> helpful. I didn't know that I had a mental illness until after he was
born.
> I didn't know that it was genetic until a few years ago and when I found
> that out I had my tubes tied, it stops with me.
>
> I don't bother telling my mother any of this for obvious reasons or my
aunt
> as they both are already old and overwhelmed with ill health and caring
for
> other family members who are having health problems. I have no other
> family. His father lives far away and resents his existence and burden of
> child support and has his "own" family to support so I don't think he will
> take him in or be a good role model either. I have been calling the foster
> care people for two weeks and they have been giving me the run around
while
> my son gets more and more aggressive and I get more and more frustrated.
> Friday I called 911 and said come get him before I hurt him but they said
I
> was stuck with him until he is 18 and put me through to some intake worker
> who said she would mail me an appointment. I said we did not have time to
> wait for the mail and she hung up on me. I started calling numbers at
> random that were similar to hers and got a case worker who put me through
to
> her supervisor but it was voice mail so I left a message. Sunday I got
gas
> and my son insisted on driving and I was too tired and defeated to argue
> even though he doesn't have a license and puts up a fight every time I try
> to get him to get a permit, anyway we get to the store with the last of
our
> money and he wants pop but we only have enough for the gas and a 99 cent
> mocha each. But I break down and get him the damn pop. (This is a side
of
> me none of you have seen before isn't it.) Anyway, I come out of the
store
> and he yells across the lot, "That's not the kind of pop I want you dumb
> crack!" I stare at him in shock. How did it get this bad? How is it that
I
> haven't had a man in my life for 7 years since the last guy broke my back
> and I decided to focus on my son and yet he still turned into one of
"them"?
> (Now someone will say "she has an us and them mentality, it's her fault.
> burn the witch. I have a them and them mentality. men who abuse and men
who
> do not feel the need to offend. but burn away, i'm on fire anyway) How did
I
> screw this up, the only thing that really matters? And who is going to
save
> my soul?
>
> I point out that this is the same pop I got last week that he complained
> that I didn't get enough of back when we had money. This is all so
> familiar. I have made these same apologetic rationalizations to numerous
> abusive men in the past before and it is pointless. It has to stop. It
has
> to stop with me. I get up and take the pop back into the store for a
> refund. The lady looks at me like I am crazy (!) but gives me my dollar
> fifty back and for the reason why I write down 'ungrateful kid' and she
> laughs with me. My son is irate and I hear about it all the way home how
> crazy I am while I tell him how he just isn't used to me standing up for
> myself and holding him accountable but I plan to do it more often. I will
> pay, I will pay big for this, but I have no idea yet. His friend comes
over
> needing his computer fixed. Word travels fast when you fix computers for
> free. He asks if he can use my computer to format his friends hard drive.
> Hell no! That is taking a big risk that you will accidentally lose the
data
> on your hard drive, take that risk on your own computer or, better yet,
take
> that risk on your friend's computer. Here, take my windows '98 cd... and
I
> advise him how to do it. I work on my webpage a little and post some of
my
> poems and my newest song. I am taking physics and have a lot of studying
to
> do, I love going to college, I am good at it. My computer is my life. I
> have been a computer technician since 1996, it is my link to this news
group
> and my email which is an important social need and to the Internet where I
> am constantly keeping my overactive brain busy doing research learning and
> helping people with my knowledge and all my poems and songs and webpage
and
> 2 years worth of data are on my 30 gigabyte hard drive.
>
> Monday I came home from school and turned on my computer and nothing
> happened... it wouldn't boot. It was as if my son had killed my dog. For
> you guys out there, imagine you had a prized Porsche that you cherished
and
> showed off and took care of every day and your son got mad at you, had
been
> mad at you for a lot of things that you just didn't know how to fix and
you
> came home one day and your son asked if he could drive it and you said no
> and you came home and your Porsche was sitting in your drive way all
crashed
> up, how angry would you be? I couldn't breathe. I couldn't speak. I got
> in my car and drove to his friend's house and he got in and I took him to
> the woods near there and told him how he hurt me and he had no right, he
had
> crossed the last boundary, he no longer lived at my house and that when he
> went and told everyone how crazy I was to be sure and tell them what he
had
> done. I did not hit him or touch him at all, he was not scared of me in
any
> way, (he is a foot taller than me and much faster and I can't run, I have
> two compressed disks in my lower back) he was annoyed. I said I was going
> to smash up his computer but he pointed out that his is worth way more
than
> mine and I'd just have to pay for it so what's the sense in that. He
walked
> back to the car before I did and tried to use his keys to get in but I got
> in and went home and sat down and called 911 again. They put me through
to
> crisis and I told them again how much worse things had gotten and to
please
> find some place for my son to live because he could not live with me, he
was
> hurting me and I was having a hard time holding it together and I did not
> want it to escalate either way. Do something! I have a counselor, he has
a
> counselor, it's going to take more than that. His constant abuse is
> aggravating my PTSD and I don't want to be abusive to him. I've been
> accused of having a victim mentality on here before, I think maybe that is
> what has contributed to how he has learned to treat me so please don't
beat
> me up about that, certainly that will make things worse. So, the police
> came to my house. I was surprised to see them as I thought I had handled
it
> pretty well, having gotten my point across without resorting to violence
but
> what I didn't know is that my son had told them that I tried to kill him.
> He said this in front of my only friend, who knows me really well, but
they
> did not listen to her even though she is an adult, they listened to him,
> presumably because although he is a minor he looks like a man. So now
those
> who have a history of picking on me for "having issues with men" can start
> blaming this on me for that. Or maybe it's all Eve's fault, but I already
> apologized for that at gunpoint when I was married to my psycho ex-husband
> in front of my son when he was three, he remembers that better than I do,
> I've gotten really good at dissociating (leaving your body when your body
> and spirit find it necessary to take a break from each other for awhile).
> And before you blame me for getting involved with abusive men, they are
not
> abusive at first, it is like a spider's web. Very beautiful and intricate
> and silky soft and smooth but damned difficult to get out of and the
harder
> you try to get out of it the more stuck you are. Precious few escape.
And
> I have worked very hard at escaping, I attract psychos, they like my fiery
> personality and my lovingness combination and I never know they are a
psycho
> until it's too late. I did abstain for all those years but I guess that
was
> too late. Well, this is the biggest pity party I've had in a long time.
> Probably because I haven't had this much pain come to the surface in
years.
>
> So, the police, once again, reinforced my fear and loathing of them
although
> they were pretty kind and respectful when they went about it by NOT
helping
> me. I have learned repeatedly that the police do not help women who are
> being abused by men, they only know how to punish and they are good at
that
> and they tend to identify with the man. I have heard contrary from
others,
> but this has been my experience time and time and time again regardless of
> my behavior or attitude or what part of the country I am in. Because my
son
> lied to the police about how I reacted to him destroying my computer they
> took me to involuntary psych unit. It has been a long time since I have
> been treated with such indignity and it really brought out the abused
child
> in me to be abandoned and ignored which about sums up what it's like to be
> locked up in the emergency room. It is completely useless as a health
care
> tool. You get no sleep, you get NO medication, they make you take off all
> your clothes and wear a napkin (you might make a slingshot out of your
> brassiere or something), and when you ask for help no one will listen to
> you, because you are a mental patient. It brings back some very bad
> memories. I had two angels. I am hypoglycemic and nearly fainted on my
way
> back from the bathroom because they also do not feed you on the psych ward
> in the middle of the night and I also needed my pain meds but fat chance I
> was even going to bother asking for that, much less my mental health meds,
> ironic though that may be. But for some reason I have the survival skill
of
> tenacity, I asked every single nurse that walked by until one listened to
me
> and she got me some 7UP. She also picked up the bloody gauze that was on
> the floor next to my bed that was there when I got there that I pointed
out
> was a hospital liability but none of the other nurses would listen to me
> about it. (good thing I'm not THAT kind of crazy, sheesh, what if it had
> AIDS on it or something?) The other one was the security guard watching
me.
> Being ignored really gets to me and I almost lost it and he came over and
> said you brought that book with you (a physics book) he said he had no
idea
> what it was about but that if I filled my head with the book there would
be
> no room for my mother, my mother was NOT there. And then he proceeded to
> watch over me, in a good way. I even fell asleep for awhile, in peace.
>
> They released me to the care of my counselor's office where, thankfully,
> they know me very well and they know I am not a violent psycho like my son
> and the police were making me out to be and they made arrangements to
> contact foster care on my behalf and let me go so I could get to class. A
> taxi took me home and when I got there my car was gone. Boy was I mad,
lol.
> My son had run the gas out but at least it was all in one piece and my
> friend brought it to me and I went to school and tried to fake normal,
> that's like trying to pretend that you are not on fire. Who is this child
> and where is my real son? How do I get him back? Why won't the system
stop
> screwing around and help us? Now what do I do?
>
>

If it was me, and of course this is the only way I can give you advice on
this issue... and I DO know where you're coming from, in many ways. But if
it was me, I'd try the Tough Love strategy. If he STEALS your car, you call
the Police. If he disrespects you and your rules, kick him out. I remember
what it was like to be 16 and your son is displaying similar behaviours. My
parents gave me a choice. Either go to school (I dropped out in Gr.11), get
a job, or get out. Of course, being the stubborn fool-headed girl I was, I
got out. I packed some bags and went to stay with friends. It was the best
thing my parents EVER did for me. ****ing wake-up call, let me tell you.
Of course I got into some trouble, I even moved to a different city for
awhile... but you know what? I came back, and not only have I grown up, I
understand my parents and I would have done the same thing! And I will if my
sons ever pull the **** that *I* did. You are NOT doing him any favours by
catering to him. When he leaves your home as an adult, he won't have anyone
to cater to him, and he'll grow up thinking the world owes him a favour.
Lorian, please, please stand up for yourself. Do not let him disrespect you
like that, YOU deserve better. Period.

Christine

turtledove wrote:
> <<snipped >>>
>
> First, I adore you. You are a courageous woman. I've always felt
> that way, even if our differences in opinions sometimes got in the
> way. Know that. Remember what a strong woman you ARE. Let that wash
> over you and bring you even more strength. Really feel it. You ARE
> a strong woman!!!
>
> I think you need to have your psychiatrist write you a letter that
> you can keep in your purse stating your mental abilities and stating
> that this is your son's problem and not yours.
>
> Also, have you thought about emancipating him? That way he is out of
> the house and isn't a danger to you and yours.
>
> About his computer...take it away. Even if this means no computer in
> the house. It's YOUR property, not his. He didn't pay for it.
>
> You are doing the best you can with what you have. There is NOTHING
> to feel guilty about. You are only doing what YOU can do. That is
> the only thing we can do.
>
> I don't know how much help any of this is. You have my friendship
> sweetheart. And you know my email addy if you want to talk off list.
>
> all my love,
> *brianne

Thank you. I am going to print this out and sleep (yeah, right, sleep.)
with it next to my pillow. I wish words of love did not hurt me but they
do. I read this and sobbed. I am so weird.

(I am ice and your sunlight is breaking me... "Eclipse" by me
http://home.comcast.net/~lorian.gray/songs.html)

Tiffany wrote:

> Oh you have one of those dogs that get all excited and pees all over!

LOL. I am so lucky with this dog. Not only does she not pee all over, Lady
is a little tiny blonde cocker spaniel that was the runt of two other runts
so she is very small. And then we inherited this little chihuahua that
didn't like me, she was my son's dog but it looks like she's mine now too.
Sasha has been actually reaching for me and smiling up at me so I like her
better too. And I speak spanish, LOL. you quiero Taco Bell.... because it
tastes like dog food, he he. just kidding.

>> It is sad. There are no males role models for him to talk to? How
> about something like that army guy that yells at the kids on tv talk
> shows???

I don't know, I don't watch tv. We have digital cable and I don't know how
to turn on the tv. I feel like Ozzy Osborne, I stand there with the digital
remote and point it and click click click but nothing happens so I yell for
Sharon but alas, she does not come running to make everything all right.
Besides, I called and canceled the cable tv since my son doesn't live here
anymore.

The good men I have known like the one that I met at college but then had to
give up because I got pregnant and decided to keep my baby, well he has
remained a faithful friend all these years via mail and email and he has
gone on to become a computer software expert and sold his computer company
to Microsoft for $20 million and works directly for Bill Gates as a
technical advisor (when I screw up, I screw up royal) always remain role
models from a distance (that is what normal people do, they stay clear the
hell away from uh, unhealthy people.) He has a lovely wife and three
children and had a great conversation with my son recently where my son
discovered that he actually knew a lot more about computer hardware than my
millionaire software genius friend does and that boosted his self esteem and
gave him a desire to move to Seattle and pursue a future in computer
hardware there. I hope my son waits to finish high school to do that
though. The only other man that comes close to normal is my brother but I
forget I even have a brother because I never see him even though he lives
right here in town. I don't blame him, he escaped the crazy family and made
a life for himself and his wife and child, I try to leave him be. That's
it. I have friends at the bar I go to on Saturday nights but I don't
associate with them outside the bar at all. I have been abused all my life,
I don't take risks like letting people into my life or my home. And
obviously even after seven years of abstinence, despite my best bravado and
attempts at choosiness the guy I attracted turned out to be soo loving and
wonderful but is in fact a big time psycho, at least he has a history of
being violent to other people, I've been told by more than one source. At
least I've kept this guy away from my son and away from me as best I can but
geez. So no wonder my son is finding it hard to become a good man. They
only exist on tv.

> Thats ok..... now he has no PC..... he will learn to think before he
> reacts. Stay strong. All fails and he does something to your pc
> again, you can always get online to check emails and stuff at the
> library.

I can't live without a PC anymore than others can live without a car for
very long. And I can build one for next to nothing in about ten minutes.
But yeah, I hope my son is learning to think before he reacts and not just
getting madder and madder at me over there.

Betsy wrote:
> In news:hvARa.83747$H17.25802@sccrnsc02,
> > typed:
>> Betsy wrote:
>>> In news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01,
>>
>
>>> Blaming everything, or most everything on a cycle of abuse is not
>>> the answer. You had some (a LOT) input into your son's behavior.
>>> Even a few years away from abusive relationships can be enough to
>>> turn opinions around.
>>
>> What part of SEVEN years of abstinence did you not hear me say? Then
>> I started dating again and the guy I really liked turned out to be
>> very bad news. So I gave up, obviously I'm not ready and I'm in
>> therapy at the YWCA.

> Apparently, I am not any help in this situation. My apologies for
> wasting time and space. Since I have nothing of value to offer I
> will shut up now. I do wish you the best, and hope everything works
> out for you

You were helpful and I appreciated that you took the time to read my long
request for help and you responded to my desperation. I just felt that you
were focusing on my mental illness as the problem and viewing the entire
context of the cycle of abuse as a way of me trying to avoid responsibility.
And I apologize for my sarcasm, I think I'm just really stressed out about
being abstinent for so long and it having all been for nothing. I'm still
screwed up and my son is way more screwed up than I ever thought capable and
I wish it were due to mental illness, there are pills for that. What is
wrong here is so convoluted that only a lot of time and love and role models
and expert help that we may not be able to get can help.

CME wrote:
> > wrote in message
> news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01...

> If it was me, and of course this is the only way I can give you
> advice on this issue... and I DO know where you're coming from, in
> many ways. But if it was me, I'd try the Tough Love strategy. If he
> STEALS your car, you call the Police. If he disrespects you and your
> rules, kick him out. I remember what it was like to be 16 and your
> son is displaying similar behaviours. My parents gave me a choice.
> Either go to school (I dropped out in Gr.11), get a job, or get out.
> Of course, being the stubborn fool-headed girl I was, I got out. I
> packed some bags and went to stay with friends. It was the best
> thing my parents EVER did for me. ****ing wake-up call, let me tell
> you. Of course I got into some trouble, I even moved to a different
> city for awhile...

I'm so scared that he will wind up on the streets out there, he is not able
to cut it with his peers now, and we just live in a working class
neighborhood, he'd be ripped to shreds out there on the streets, he'd wind
up on drugs, fodder for sexual predators, oh, god.

but you know what? I came back, and not only have
> I grown up, I understand my parents and I would have done the same
> thing! And I will if my sons ever pull the **** that *I* did. You
> are NOT doing him any favours by catering to him. When he leaves
> your home as an adult, he won't have anyone to cater to him,

sure he will, there are lots of women just like me! (bowing my head in
shame, it all comes so clear to me now. the abusive guys i've loved, they
abused me because they needed me to take care of them...)

and
> he'll grow up thinking the world owes him a favour. Lorian, please,
> please stand up for yourself. Do not let him disrespect you like
> that, YOU deserve better. Period.

well, i hear you but i can't feel it inside but for today i will take your
word for it. maybe one day soon i will believe it about myself again. i am
trying very hard to pretend and to take steps to stand up for myself but i
am always pretending, so many people treat me like i don't matter, it's not
just my son. it's the police, the hospital staff, the social services
system, but then there are those rare people who see the glow in me and the
light clicks back on...

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:hvARa.83747$H17.25802@sccrnsc02...


"This is part of the result of living with mood swings, dissociation, the
fog
of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress disorder. And
it is the result of simply not knowing how to set limits and normal
consequences when all you've ever lived in is a war zone."

Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems would
**** up about any kid? I sniped the rest of your post, cause you don't want
my thoughts on it.

you love this kid, let him go, if you have any family that he's comfotable
at, let him go there, if anyone can provide foster care, let him go there.
Jesus H Christ, the kids mother gets comited, is stung up on pain meds and
sedatives, and he freaked out. Look, most people who suffer from co-depence
have the same problem as you, no matter what, you don't see past your nose.
No matter what, you'll feel like you got the raw end of the deal, wether it
be by a cop, a social worker, or your son. Your shrink "believes in you" as
you say, so it's cool with him, unless he calls you on some of this, in
which case he ends up like the cops and social workers.

When the only place you got left [to come for advice is usenet, something
might be wrong.
When every R/L person around you is telling you ya got a serious problem,
you might be wrong
When you still need to blame a man who isn't even around right now, you
might got a problem.
When you, as a grown women, needs to blame things on her mother, you might
got a problem

When all those things happen at the same time, over the same issue, you DO
have a problem.

Get some help, if not for yourself, do it for your kid. How do you expect
your kid to function normally while you carry around all that bagage?

[Paul Fritz]

16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it didn't
happen sooner.

But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:hvARa.83747$H17.25802@sccrnsc02...
>
>
> "This is part of the result of living with mood swings, dissociation, the
> fog
> of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress disorder.
And
> it is the result of simply not knowing how to set limits and normal
> consequences when all you've ever lived in is a war zone."
>
> Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems would
> **** up about any kid? I sniped the rest of your post, cause you don't
want
> my thoughts on it.
>
> you love this kid, let him go, if you have any family that he's comfotable
> at, let him go there, if anyone can provide foster care, let him go there.
> Jesus H Christ, the kids mother gets comited, is stung up on pain meds and
> sedatives, and he freaked out. Look, most people who suffer from
co-depence
> have the same problem as you, no matter what, you don't see past your
nose.
> No matter what, you'll feel like you got the raw end of the deal, wether
it
> be by a cop, a social worker, or your son. Your shrink "believes in you"
as
> you say, so it's cool with him, unless he calls you on some of this, in
> which case he ends up like the cops and social workers.
>
> When the only place you got left [to come for advice is usenet, something
> might be wrong.
> When every R/L person around you is telling you ya got a serious problem,
> you might be wrong
> When you still need to blame a man who isn't even around right now, you
> might got a problem.
> When you, as a grown women, needs to blame things on her mother, you might
> got a problem
>
> When all those things happen at the same time, over the same issue, you DO
> have a problem.
>
> Get some help, if not for yourself, do it for your kid. How do you expect
> your kid to function normally while you carry around all that bagage?
>
>
>
>

[CME]

> wrote in message news:W7PRa.88994$H17.27268@sccrnsc02...
> CME wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01...
>
> > If it was me, and of course this is the only way I can give you
> > advice on this issue... and I DO know where you're coming from, in
> > many ways. But if it was me, I'd try the Tough Love strategy. If he
> > STEALS your car, you call the Police. If he disrespects you and your
> > rules, kick him out. I remember what it was like to be 16 and your
> > son is displaying similar behaviours. My parents gave me a choice.
> > Either go to school (I dropped out in Gr.11), get a job, or get out.
> > Of course, being the stubborn fool-headed girl I was, I got out. I
> > packed some bags and went to stay with friends. It was the best
> > thing my parents EVER did for me. ****ing wake-up call, let me tell
> > you. Of course I got into some trouble, I even moved to a different
> > city for awhile...
>
> I'm so scared that he will wind up on the streets out there, he is not
able
> to cut it with his peers now, and we just live in a working class
> neighborhood, he'd be ripped to shreds out there on the streets, he'd wind
> up on drugs, fodder for sexual predators, oh, god.
>

And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him out,
it was his choice, and if he does wind up on the street, then you make him
aware that he can always come home.

> but you know what? I came back, and not only have
> > I grown up, I understand my parents and I would have done the same
> > thing! And I will if my sons ever pull the **** that *I* did. You
> > are NOT doing him any favours by catering to him. When he leaves
> > your home as an adult, he won't have anyone to cater to him,
>
> sure he will, there are lots of women just like me! (bowing my head in
> shame, it all comes so clear to me now. the abusive guys i've loved, they
> abused me because they needed me to take care of them...)
>
> and
> > he'll grow up thinking the world owes him a favour. Lorian, please,
> > please stand up for yourself. Do not let him disrespect you like
> > that, YOU deserve better. Period.
>
> well, i hear you but i can't feel it inside but for today i will take your
> word for it. maybe one day soon i will believe it about myself again. i
am
> trying very hard to pretend and to take steps to stand up for myself but i
> am always pretending, so many people treat me like i don't matter, it's
not
> just my son. it's the police, the hospital staff, the social services
> system, but then there are those rare people who see the glow in me and
the
> light clicks back on...
>
Just a thought, but have you ever considered that the way people see you, is
a reflection of how you see yourself? How can you expect others to see your
value, if YOU do not even see it? I'm a big believer in self-image and
directing my own life... if you believe you're worthless etc, then why would
others think differently? Not letting people walk all over you is part of
that too, it's about self-respect. I've come a looooong way baby, because I
*used* to see my value through others, namely men, and although I thought I
was a good person, there was always that little voice inside of me, you know
the one, the one that says you're nothing (well it was actually my mother in
my head, but that's another story. lol) Well it's hard work to break that
cycle, and therapy helped me see all these things (well that and just basic
University classes). So if *I* can do it, so can you Lorian.

Christine

[CME]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
> 16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it
didn't
> happen sooner.
>
> But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault
>

That is so unfair Paul, I didn't see her blaming her son's behaviour on
anyone BUT herself. Give your ****ing agenda a rest.

Christine
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> news:hvARa.83747$H17.25802@sccrnsc02...
> >
> >
> > "This is part of the result of living with mood swings, dissociation,
the
> > fog
> > of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress disorder.
> And
> > it is the result of simply not knowing how to set limits and normal
> > consequences when all you've ever lived in is a war zone."
> >
> > Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems would
> > **** up about any kid? I sniped the rest of your post, cause you don't
> want
> > my thoughts on it.
> >
> > you love this kid, let him go, if you have any family that he's
comfotable
> > at, let him go there, if anyone can provide foster care, let him go
there.
> > Jesus H Christ, the kids mother gets comited, is stung up on pain meds
and
> > sedatives, and he freaked out. Look, most people who suffer from
> co-depence
> > have the same problem as you, no matter what, you don't see past your
> nose.
> > No matter what, you'll feel like you got the raw end of the deal, wether
> it
> > be by a cop, a social worker, or your son. Your shrink "believes in you"
> as
> > you say, so it's cool with him, unless he calls you on some of this, in
> > which case he ends up like the cops and social workers.
> >
> > When the only place you got left [to come for advice is usenet,
something
> > might be wrong.
> > When every R/L person around you is telling you ya got a serious
problem,
> > you might be wrong
> > When you still need to blame a man who isn't even around right now, you
> > might got a problem.
> > When you, as a grown women, needs to blame things on her mother, you
might
> > got a problem
> >
> > When all those things happen at the same time, over the same issue, you
DO
> > have a problem.
> >
> > Get some help, if not for yourself, do it for your kid. How do you
expect
> > your kid to function normally while you carry around all that bagage?
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Dennis Here]

CME wrote in message ...
>
>And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
>make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
>your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him out,


Snip other good advice

I have to disagree here Christine as my POV is a lot different to yours.
I do not live in "my" house with my son, I live in our house. House rules
are two way, I don't set them, we agree to them. Obviously at Freddie's age
some basics are more my domain than his but at the age of Lorian's son, and
I have two grown sons go through this stage, there has to be a big element
of give and take based on mutual respect. It seems that going through an
angst stage where he has little respect for her or anyone else for that
matter. He is testing his limits and is finding that they are almost
limitless at the moment. He will not stop until he realises that treating
people with contempt if not the best way in life. He will be thinking, and
not without reason, that everyone around him is treating him with contempt
too. He thinks that he knows better than his mother and is ready and
confident enough to find out for himself. To us it is a dreadfull stage in
the development of an adolescent boy, to him it is merely testing the water
and establishing himself as an adult capable of finding his own way in life.
I left home a 16. I was fed up with the restrictions and expectations of my
father. We fought all the time. I disagreed with everything he said and
stood for. I was going to change the world. I would play Bob Dylan records
at full volume just to **** him off! To an outsider I was an arrogant
arsehole with a big attitude. To myself and my piers I was a self confident
ground breaker who new where he was going for myself.

I suppose the biggest breakthrough was made by my mother as I still remember
it clearly. After a full blast rendition of a Bob Dylan track entitled "My
back Pages" from the Anotherside of LP, she quietly said that she really
liked that one. I was thoroughly ****ed off that I had had the opposite
affect to that intended and went to listen to it again quietly. I had only
heard what I wanted to hear and completely overlooked the chorus.
Here are the words from
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/backpages.html

Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin' high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
Proud 'neath heated brow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Girls' faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

A self-ordained professor's tongue
Too serious to fool
Spouted out that liberty
Is just equality in school
"Equality," I spoke the word
As if a wedding vow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

My teenage hero had already seen the light! and my mother had seen it before
I had!

Lets hope that Lorian's son also has some kind of defining moment that he
will see for himself, however that may happen.

Dennis

[CME]

"Dennis Here" oureply>
wrote in message ...
>
> CME wrote in message ...
> >
> >And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
> >make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
> >your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him
out,
>
>
> Snip other good advice
>
> I have to disagree here Christine as my POV is a lot different to yours.
> I do not live in "my" house with my son, I live in our house. House rules
> are two way, I don't set them, we agree to them. Obviously at Freddie's
age
> some basics are more my domain than his but at the age of Lorian's son,
and
> I have two grown sons go through this stage, there has to be a big element
> of give and take based on mutual respect. It seems that going through an
> angst stage where he has little respect for her or anyone else for that
> matter. He is testing his limits and is finding that they are almost
> limitless at the moment.

I agree with you there, and the 'our' house if a good point. But I'm
alittle old school in the thought that it's my house, because I'm paying the
rent, etc. lol I guess it's my father leaping out of my throat when I say
that. Wow, who knew? lol

..>He will not stop until he realises that treating people with contempt if
not the best way in life. He will be thinking, and
> not without reason, that everyone around him is treating him with contempt
> too. He thinks that he knows better than his mother and is ready and
> confident enough to find out for himself. To us it is a dreadfull stage in
> the development of an adolescent boy, to him it is merely testing the
water
> and establishing himself as an adult capable of finding his own way in
life.
> I left home a 16. I was fed up with the restrictions and expectations of
my
> father. We fought all the time. I disagreed with everything he said and
> stood for. I was going to change the world. I would play Bob Dylan records
> at full volume just to **** him off! To an outsider I was an arrogant
> arsehole with a big attitude. To myself and my piers I was a self
confident
> ground breaker who new where he was going for myself.
>
> I suppose the biggest breakthrough was made by my mother as I still
remember
> it clearly. After a full blast rendition of a Bob Dylan track entitled "My
> back Pages" from the Anotherside of LP, she quietly said that she really
> liked that one. I was thoroughly ****ed off that I had had the opposite
> affect to that intended and went to listen to it again quietly. I had only
> heard what I wanted to hear and completely overlooked the chorus.
> Here are the words from
> http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/backpages.html
>
> Crimson flames tied through my ears
> Rollin' high and mighty traps
> Pounced with fire on flaming roads
> Using ideas as my maps
> "We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
> Proud 'neath heated brow.
> Ah, but I was so much older then,
> I'm younger than that now.
>
> Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
> "Rip down all hate," I screamed
> Lies that life is black and white
> Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
> Romantic facts of musketeers
> Foundationed deep, somehow.
> Ah, but I was so much older then,
> I'm younger than that now.
>
> Girls' faces formed the forward path
> From phony jealousy
> To memorizing politics
> Of ancient history
> Flung down by corpse evangelists
> Unthought of, though, somehow.
> Ah, but I was so much older then,
> I'm younger than that now.
>
> A self-ordained professor's tongue
> Too serious to fool
> Spouted out that liberty
> Is just equality in school
> "Equality," I spoke the word
> As if a wedding vow.
> Ah, but I was so much older then,
> I'm younger than that now.
>
> In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
> At the mongrel dogs who teach
> Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
> In the instant that I preach
> My pathway led by confusion boats
> Mutiny from stern to bow.
> Ah, but I was so much older then,
> I'm younger than that now.
>
> Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
> Too noble to neglect
> Deceived me into thinking
> I had something to protect
> Good and bad, I define these terms
> Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
> Ah, but I was so much older then,
> I'm younger than that now.
>
> My teenage hero had already seen the light! and my mother had seen it
before
> I had!
>
> Lets hope that Lorian's son also has some kind of defining moment that he
> will see for himself, however that may happen.
>
> Dennis
>

Yeah, mine was probably when I left home and realized how bloody naive I
was. The only thing that kept me alive was that I had brains, and I learned
fast. I even remember spending a cold, hungry night outside walking the
piers of Victoria because I had no where else to go. What a rough
awakening. But my truly defining moment didn't come until later, when I
became pregnant. I knew I was responsible for someone other than myself,
and I needed to get my **** together. I'm proud that I've made it.

Christine

CME wrote:
> And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do
> is make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to
> respect your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you
> kick him out, it was his choice, and if he does wind up on the
> street, then you make him aware that he can always come home.

Scary, but good advice. If/when he lives with me again.

> Just a thought, but have you ever considered that the way people see
> you, is a reflection of how you see yourself? How can you expect
> others to see your value, if YOU do not even see it?

yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers, but my
poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and through the
fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he must have
felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be there for
him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am sure.
Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression. When I
am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no
matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.

I'm a big
> believer in self-image and directing my own life... if you believe
> you're worthless etc, then why would others think differently? Not
> letting people walk all over you is part of that too, it's about
> self-respect.

It's also about me just being too tired and defeated to say no. And a
learned fear of saying no.

I've come a looooong way baby, because I *used* to see
> my value through others, namely men,

this one I figured out a few months ago and I realized that even though I
wasn't dating anyone I was still relying on the approval I got from the men
in my life that I fixed computers for, or bought computer parts from, or
that worked at the bar that I liked to go to on Saturday nights (safe men,
because I have a rule against dating bar staff) or just any man that thought
I was pretty or funny or smart or whatever. That was a high that I knew
deep down that could vanish at any moment and that it wasn't right to rely
on others for my self-esteem. So, I stopped going to the bar for awhile and
distanced myself from everybody emotionally and asked myself what I liked to
do that was just for me. This took awhile. I remembered that in college I
had studied creative writing. So, I started going to poetry readings. Then
I started writing poetry again and my creativity came back like a flood, I
still can hardly keep up enough pen and scraps of paper to write it all down
as it comes to me. This is where lasting self esteem comes from, within.
And now I have a reputation at the bar (it's really my main social outlet, I
have good friends there who are all sober as they work there and they are
educated and intelligent and respect me) for being a writer and they like my
songs and encourage me as I pursue my education in genetics. It's my son
who doesn't respect me.

and although I thought I was a
> good person, there was always that little voice inside of me, you
> know the one, the one that says you're nothing (well it was actually
> my mother in my head, but that's another story. lol)

I take a pill for that, LOL. Sometimes my mother does try to help me love
myself and I do respect her for the fact that she did leave my father and
she did raise my brother and I alone and she did go get a job as a bus
driver that she has had all these years and she is now doing that and caring
for my dying stepdad too. It's just that she has a lot of shame issues
herself so ultimately that is what comes through from her. And I don't know
that I will ever overcome my childhood, I can't usually remember it except
in times of extreme duress.

Well it's hard
> work to break that cycle, and therapy helped me see all these things
> (well that and just basic University classes). So if *I* can do it,
> so can you Lorian.

I'm glad you have such confidence in me, and thank you for sharing your
story, it does give me hope that if I continue to work hard and seek help
for my son and I that we can make a better way.

Paul Fritz wrote:
> 16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it
> didn't happen sooner.
>
> But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault

I shouldn't respond to this but I am going to.

First, I asked for people with condemnation and judgment not to reply but
you, Paul Fritz, overstepped my boundaries once again because you do not
have any respect for women's boundaries, because you are an abuser.

Second, you have no right to judge me as a "misandrist" which means man
hater. You are a woman hater, that is clear from your years of posting lies
and hate about women here and on alt.child-support so I have often wondered
about your daughter and her reaction to how you view women so derogatively,
especially since you so rarely talk about your daughter online at all,
preferring instead to target ME for your hatred and rage and tooting your
own horn.

Third, I did not place blame for my son's abusive attitude toward me on
anything other than the fact that I and I alone raised him in an environment
where he saw me being abused by men and now that has come back to bite me in
the ass and I, and I alone, have done everything within my power to change
the course of his future.

CME wrote:
> "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> 16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised
>> it didn't happen sooner.
>>
>> But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault
>>
>
> That is so unfair Paul, I didn't see her blaming her son's behaviour
> on anyone BUT herself. Give your ****ing agenda a rest.

Thank you Christine, sometimes Paul needs a reality check and I appreciate
the validation.

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:rfhSa.101006$H17.30659@sccrnsc02...

> yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
> depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers, but
my
> poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and through
the
> fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he must
have
> felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be there for
> him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am sure.
> Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression. When I
> am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no
> matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.


You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This is all
real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this stuff, but
accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know where
he's comming from.

Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine being
your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected by
people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you were in
your harder moments.

My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for yourself,
sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit better
then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call a
friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and listen,
and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you don't
know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a womans
shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you
smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.

Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion. Tell
him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about how
you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two of you
need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for each
other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad kid, just
a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.

Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who does
and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you deserve
each other.

When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in, you
won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I replied
to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.

Dennis Here wrote:

> So you should be!
> I did the classic out of my bedroom window on a rope escape when I
> left home. A sleeping bag over my shoulder with a few basics wrapped
> up inside. It was towards the end of the "beatnik" era in the mid
> sixties. I think I had just finished reading Jack Keroac's "On the
> Road" , a must read at the time. The first night I slept under
> Bournemouth pier, then I found a bandstand in the park before
> graduation to derelict buildings in London. Money was short so I went
> to Kent and got casual work on the hop and fruit farms and found a
> crowd of people just like me! Actually Lorian could do worse than
> give him a copy wrapped up in a sleeping bag!

"On The Road" is a classic! and I've been trying to get him to read the
commonly banned "Catcher in the Rye" I think he could relate a lot and maybe
feel better.

I don't mind kids with
> an "attitude" as long as they have had the basic grounding during
> their formative years, which, I have to say, seem to be fewer with
> each generation. I still believe that the first ones into these
> things are also the first ones to come out the other end and get on
> with their lives. Seems it did neither of us any harm though it took
> years to build a relationship with my father again. I had only just
> got there when he died.

What you are both forgetting is how the street is a whole different place
now than it was in the '60s or even the '80s. We have AIDS for one thing, a
lot more adults out there who are also homeless, a lot more hard core drugs,
and precious few resources to go around for all who need them out there. He
is not street smart, he wouldn't make it, it would destroy him.

Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > wrote in message
> news:rfhSa.101006$H17.30659@sccrnsc02...
>
>> yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
>> depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers,
>> but my poor son has always been around me through these mood swings
>> and through the fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from
>> others and he must have felt so powerless to help me and of course I
>> was not able to be there for him emotionally, that is a big part of
>> why he is so angry at me I am sure. Also, my confidence level is a
>> main factor of my manic-depression. When I am manic, I am very
>> confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no matter what. The
>> meds help a lot but only go so far.

> You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you.

Then you haven't really been paying attention until now.

This
> is all real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of
> this stuff, but accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge
> deal.

I have been blaming myself since before he was born, so has everyone else,
what more do you want from me?

Also, know where he's comming from.

I do put myself in his shoes and he is still a child and I already said
repeatedly that I knew how he must hurt to have lived with me because I knew
how it hurt to live with my parents.

> Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine
> being your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be
> rejected by people you care about, then think of how he must have
> felt when you were in your harder moments.

I do. It tortures me.

> My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for
> yourself, sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to
> eat a bit better then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour
> walk everyday, call a friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them
> how they are, and listen, and once a day, without telling anyone, do
> something for someone you don't know. Throw some change at a bum,
> drop some old clothes off at a womans shelter, volunteer somewhere,
> offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you smoke ) doensn't have to
> be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.

I don't smoke, I always find myself apologizing for that when I say that I
do not have a cigarette but I would give them one if I did (even though
this only perpetuates their addiction. Relief is relief.) And I have
always helped those less fortunate to me no matter how poor I have gotten, I
even have advice to others on how to do so on my webpage:

http://home.comcast.net/~lorian.gray/spiraloflife.html

> Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion.
> Tell him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here
> about how you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all
> that, the two of you need to have a relationship together where you
> have some respect for each other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't
> think your son is a bad kid, just a hurt one acting bad. I think
> you'll both find alot of forgiveness.

I hope this happens for us one day soon.

> Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who
> does and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of
> you deserve each other.

I think you do not know me very well at all to make that kind of judgment
about me as a person and I am very suspicious of who you are but I trust
that you want the best for my son and that you still see that I am a
positive in his life.

> When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part
> in, you won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore
> Lorian.

Wrong. I have always taken responsibility for my son from the day I found
out I was pregnant with him, everyone else abandoned us and their
responsibility to him and to me and had nothing but contempt, including
society in general. Hate the poor may as well be our country's motto. But
I have always stood by my son and have always tried my best to get help from
the people who are getting PAID to help families like ours but the system
has failed us repeatedly. I did not do this alone and I will not accept all
the blame alone either.

I replied to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to
> do that.

Thank you.

[CME]

> wrote in message news:IXjSa.101987$H17.31522@sccrnsc02...
> Dennis Here wrote:
>
> > So you should be!
> > I did the classic out of my bedroom window on a rope escape when I
> > left home. A sleeping bag over my shoulder with a few basics wrapped
> > up inside. It was towards the end of the "beatnik" era in the mid
> > sixties. I think I had just finished reading Jack Keroac's "On the
> > Road" , a must read at the time. The first night I slept under
> > Bournemouth pier, then I found a bandstand in the park before
> > graduation to derelict buildings in London. Money was short so I went
> > to Kent and got casual work on the hop and fruit farms and found a
> > crowd of people just like me! Actually Lorian could do worse than
> > give him a copy wrapped up in a sleeping bag!
>
> "On The Road" is a classic! and I've been trying to get him to read the
> commonly banned "Catcher in the Rye" I think he could relate a lot and
maybe
> feel better.
>
> I don't mind kids with
> > an "attitude" as long as they have had the basic grounding during
> > their formative years, which, I have to say, seem to be fewer with
> > each generation. I still believe that the first ones into these
> > things are also the first ones to come out the other end and get on
> > with their lives. Seems it did neither of us any harm though it took
> > years to build a relationship with my father again. I had only just
> > got there when he died.
>
> What you are both forgetting is how the street is a whole different place
> now than it was in the '60s or even the '80s. We have AIDS for one thing,
a
> lot more adults out there who are also homeless, a lot more hard core
drugs,
> and precious few resources to go around for all who need them out there.
He
> is not street smart, he wouldn't make it, it would destroy him.
>

No it wouldn't. I was on the street in the mid 90's. If he's smart, and
stays away from the hard core drugs (crack and heroin) he'll make it out
again. And as a male, he has alot more going for him, then I did at 17. It
was a rough time for me, but you know what? I look back, mostly in
fondness. Although I made some poor decisions, I wouldn't change them
because it wouldn't make me the person I am today. If he has skills, he'll
be just fine. He's at that age, where you have to let him go... but make
sure he knows that you love him no matter what.

Christine

[Dennis Here]

Rolly The Pervert wrote in message ...
>
>
>You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This is
all
>real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this stuff,
but
>accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know where
>he's comming from.
>
>Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine being
>your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected by
>people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you were in
>your harder moments.
>
>My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for yourself,
>sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit better
>then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call a
>friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and listen,
>and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you don't
>know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a womans
>shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you
>smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.
>
>Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion. Tell
>him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about how
>you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two of
you
>need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for each
>other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad kid,
just
>a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.
>
>Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who does
>and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you deserve
>each other.
>
>When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in, you
>won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I replied
>to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.

Tom, you are showing wisdom way beyond your years.
A good post based on the reality of the current situation.
The past will only give an understanding, it cannot help in the here and
now.

Dennis

[Dennis Here]

wrote in message ...
>
>What you are both forgetting is how the street is a whole different place
>now than it was in the '60s or even the '80s. We have AIDS for one thing,
a
>lot more adults out there who are also homeless, a lot more hard core
drugs,
>and precious few resources to go around for all who need them out there.
He
>is not street smart, he wouldn't make it, it would destroy him.

It could make him too.
Like I said, if you are confident that you have done the groundwork, that he
knows right from wrong, he will be just fine.
Heroin was available in the sixties as well, two friends of mine died from
it. I chose to leave it but a joint never did me any harm. A lot of other
friends were acid freaks, they are all still alive. I think Alan Ginsburg
only died recently and not from drugs.
I grew up in a small village in Devon in SW England. I was not street wise
either but I had a sixth sense that got me past the gay guys and kept me the
right side of the law. I lived and worked with people from all walks of
life. Gypsies, down and outs and other young people like myself. I learnt
from all of them. I experienced discrimination for the first time in my
life. I found ways around it and learned how to get on with everyone.
Schools or parents cannot teach you this stuff.
Let him go with your blessing but be there for him. You will get a letter or
Email from him within a month or so.

Dennis

[Paul Fritz]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:fzhSa.101124$H17.30287@sccrnsc02...
> > Paul Fritz wrote:
> > > 16 years of dealing with LL misandrist rantings......I'm surprised it
> > > didn't happen sooner.
> > >
> > > But in her mind...it will always be someone else's fault
> >
> > I shouldn't respond to this but I am going to.
>
> Cause you have no self control

Hit the nail on the head that time

> >
> > First, I asked for people with condemnation and judgment not to reply
but
> > you, Paul Fritz, overstepped my boundaries once again because you do not
> > have any respect for women's boundaries, because you are an abuser.
> >
>
> No it's usenet. You askign anyone not to reply is over stepping your
> boundries.

After all these years, looney still hasn't grasped the concept of an
unmoderated NG


>
> > Second, you have no right to judge me as a "misandrist" which means man
> > hater. You are a woman hater, that is clear from your years of posting
> lies
> > and hate about women here and on alt.child-support so I have often
> wondered
> > about your daughter and her reaction to how you view women so
> derogatively,
> > especially since you so rarely talk about your daughter online at all,
> > preferring instead to target ME for your hatred and rage and tooting
your
> > own horn.
> >
>
> Now she uses his kid as a weapon, and starts with the I'm a Woman, your an
> abuser BS.

What is comical is that looney says 'I' have no right to judge, and then
jumps to her own looney tunes judgements.
It grinds her that I am sucessful in most things, from child raising to
business........

>
> LooNey Lorian still can't accept responsibility for her own ****.

why she is where she is and I am where I am.

>
> > Third, I did not place blame for my son's abusive attitude toward me on
> > anything other than the fact that I and I alone raised him in an
> environment
> > where he saw me being abused by men and now that has come back to bite
me
> in
> > the ass and I, and I alone, have done everything within my power to
change
> > the course of his future.
>
>
> What a crock of ****.

You got that right..........in looney land, it is still somebody else's
fault, she has got her head so far up her ass she cannot see what the
damage of her misandrist life has done to her son.

> You failed to move on, your still living and acting as
> if you are with someone who beats you. whatever any man has ever done to
you
> can't come close to what you've done to yourself. You've reduced yourself
to
> someone who takes pills for pain, pills to sleep, pills to not be
depressed,
> pills to not be manic. Your someone who is still in every 2nd post blaming
> everything since you left on your X on him and the men in your life. You
> atract what you put out lady, if your a co-dependant, your gonna atract
> control freaks and assorted assholes. You got some repressed something
that
> you can't get past, it's why you've sounded like a broken record all these
> years.
>
> And before you go calling me a manhater, I came here at your request,
cause
> you cried and whined about being trolled abusively. I subbed, read, and
when
> I pointed out that no on was trolling you, you had been a willing
> participant, and what they were saying wasn't completely untrue, you
flipped
> on me, called me a woman hater ( there went a year long friendship because
I
> wouldnt co-sign your bull**** huh ) *ps, if she replies to this and
denies,
> I'll have a bot setup to repost everything that happened here that month.

You are not the first for that to happen.

Looney constantly whines about how 'abusive' am, yet she has been killfiled
for so years.....the only post I see of hers are responses from somebody
else.


>
> Get a grip, your son needs you, it's time to help him heel from all the
> years of being the son of a looney mar00n. Pick your ass up, take it to a
> CODA meeting, and get some help. Your not responsible for your disease,
but
> you are for your recovery baby



>
>

[Lisa aka Surfer]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:rfhSa.101006$H17.30659@sccrnsc02...
>
> > yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
> > depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers, but
> my
> > poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and through
> the
> > fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he must
> have
> > felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be there
for
> > him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am
sure.
> > Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression. When
I
> > am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no
> > matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.
>
>
> You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This is
all
> real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this stuff,
but
> accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know where
> he's comming from.
>
> Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine being
> your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected by
> people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you were
in
> your harder moments.
>
> My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for yourself,
> sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit better
> then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call a
> friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and listen,
> and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you don't
> know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a womans
> shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you
> smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.
>
> Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion. Tell
> him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about how
> you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two of
you
> need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for each
> other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad kid,
just
> a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.
>
> Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who does
> and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you deserve
> each other.
>
> When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in, you
> won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I replied
> to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.
>

Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from the very
first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the point. Yet you
still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well these days!!!!

Lisa

[dolores]

> wrote in message news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01...
Snip

Lorian, OMG....this post!!!.. I cannot even begin to imagine how you must
have suffered, firstly as a child and now as an adult. Not only were you
shortchanged by your parents, but their abuse of you was their legacy to you
and is probably the cause of your illness. And this legacy of theirs has not
only hurt you, but is being handed down to your son, but not deliberately on
your part. You've obviously worked hard at not being your mother or
father...But that's one hell of a tough thing to do...It's a known fact that
abuse is a hard cycle to break...and all credit to you for what you've
done...You've broken the physical cycle from what I can gather...but the
psychological one is the hardest....but you are obviously trying and deserve
credit for it. I cant imaging how worn down and tired you must be. These
teenage years of your sons are probably going to be the hardest too, my
heart goes out to you.

I think you should be congratulated on the gift of education you've given
your son. I reckon this is one part of you that hasnt been contanimated by
your parents. You were clear, determined and knew what you were doing. I
would say this most definitely came across to your son, otherwise he wouldnt
be as knowledgeable as he is. I'd say he has a quiet respect for this side
of you. Now if your parents had left you alone, brought you up with
kindness, decency and been good to you, then the mother that educated your
son would be the same mother that knew how to set boundaries, say no and be
comfortable in her own skin (if that makes sense). Unfortuantely they
stripped you of this and it's been your downfall. I dont think it's your
fault, I think its theirs. As a result your son has had to deal with two
mothers, the one that knew what she was doing and the other one that was
grasping at straws, grappling with herself and unsure. He probably sensed
this from a very young age and got away with murder, now he's older and
fighting back, or more to the point begging for help but doesnt have the
know how. Reading your post about the mocha drink he *sounds* like one hell
of a spoilt brat!! (Sorry, no offence intended). I would say though it's
more a case that you are the only person that he has that he can really
truly be himself with, and is letting out all his frustrations on you.

I believe kicking him out on to the street will probably destroy him and
ruin all the hard work you've put in, not to mention a waste of all the
hours of agony that you've gone through. You'd be perpetuating the cycle
too..... Breaking it however, is tough and I dont think you will be able to
do it on your own, simply cos you havent got the tools or know how (thanks
to your parents). This is where fostering to a good home where there are
other kids would be a good idea. It would help him in the future, but do
nothing for you as a parent. And you need help too

Going by what you've said it seems to me that this lad didnt really have
many rules or boundaries imposed on him, probably becuase you didnt know how
to say no.....not that you didnt want to...just probably cos you didnt know
when it was appropriate....God!!...I hope I'm not offending you here....

This lad sounds as though he really and truly needs genuine love and
attention, to know that he is cherished, *important to somebody*, ideally
you...and needed. You really need to let him know that you truly love him
and that love is unconditional. After all, given what he witnessed as a
child you are hardly in a position to expect pristine behaviour when your
own wasnt that great....and he know this and will flog it to the death if
you let him. You cant threaten him with the door because his behaviour is in
the gutter, when he grew up watching your behaviour with these men.

If he's willing, sit him down, tell him about your own childhood, how you
felt at the time and how it affected you growing up. Acknowledge to him that
maybe you werent the best parent starting off but now you know you were
wrong. *Ask* him what he needs from you. Make it quite clear that he is as
much a part of the family as you are and this is his home, it always will
be. Tell him that you *need* his help at sorting this out and that you are
going to keep trying, you will never give up on him. Get him to open up to
you if you can.

However, at some point you really have to set boundaries and rules, give him
responsiblity in the home. If this is his home, as much as yours, then he
should treat it as such and pull his weight. And these rules have to apply
to you too. He is entitled to expect a certain standard of behaviour from
you too, just as my lads are entitled to expect a certain standard of
behaviour from me. Threatening to throw him on the street is just a more
subtle way of perpetuating the cycle of abuse that you recieved, it's
instilling fear and builds hostility in his mind.

If he's not willing to listen, or it ends up in a fight, sit down and write
a letter/email to him. Dont doubt he will read it, a letter never goes
unread.

However, I do feel it would do him the world of good to go and see how other
people live. Call it fostering if you like, but I'd be more inclined to tell
him that this is a great opportunity for him to go and see how other people
live. Be open about the fact that it will show him how wrong some of the
things you did were, and this is a great chance to break the loop. After
all, in years to come he might have a family of his own and this time seeing
how another family behave might be his saving grace.

If he does go to another family though make sure you see or speak to him
every single day, without fail, at the same time every day too, so that he
knows he can rely on you. First thing in the morning to wish him well and
last thing after dinner to see how he is and how he got on. When he comes
home ask him what he thinks, and get him to talk in detail if you can, be
open about the differences between how you dealt with hiim and how they do.
Make it quite clear that this is only a temporary arrangement, that you are
under no circumstances turning your back on him or giving up on him. And
while he is off with this other family you should foster yourself out
too.....Parenting classes are a start and I'm sure if you asked around
someone could give you some idea of where to go......

Well, all the above are only my opinion, for what its worth and hope I
havent offened you, as that is not my intention. I'm not really qualified
or experienced enough either cos my lads are still only young at 11 and 13,
I dont have the wisdom of hindsight as of yet...as many others here in the
group do......However, I really feel for what you are going through and hope
you and your son manage to get through this. Best of luck

Dolores









Who is this child
> and where is my real son? How do I get him back? Why won't the system
stop
> screwing around and help us? Now what do I do?
>
>

[Laura]

> wrote in message news:<CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01>...

> They released me to the care of my counselor's office where, thankfully,
> they know me very well and they know I am not a violent psycho like my son
> and the police were making me out to be and they made arrangements to
> contact foster care on my behalf and let me go so I could get to class.

Lorian, I'm sorry things have gotten to this point. Both you and your
son are clearly suffering a great deal. I think it's a very good thing
that you're working with the foster care system to find a stable home
for him. That seems the best solution in the short term given your
resources and his age. Some distance between you two will allow you
both to get your equilibrium back and figure out what to do with the
assistance of neutral counselors. I hope that you can spend some time
tending to your own needs and he, separately, can be helped with the
tremendous issues he must be facing. Peace to you both.

lm

Lisa aka Surfer wrote:

> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> these days!!!!
>
> Lisa

Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here as
always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was able to
resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and she did get
through to me in email. Because she did truly care for me and my son's best
interests. You never have. You have always been catty and superior and
very hurtful to me and I will not allow you to continue to do that to me
here.

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> news:rfhSa.101006$H17.30659@sccrnsc02...
> >
> > > yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
> > > depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers,
but
> > my
> > > poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and
through
> > the
> > > fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he must
> > have
> > > felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be there
> for
> > > him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am
> sure.
> > > Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression.
When
> I
> > > am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless, no
> > > matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.
> >
> >
> > You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This is
> all
> > real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this stuff,
> but
> > accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know
where
> > he's comming from.
> >
> > Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine being
> > your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected by
> > people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you were
> in
> > your harder moments.
> >
> > My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for yourself,
> > sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit
better
> > then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call a
> > friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and
listen,
> > and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you
don't
> > know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a womans
> > shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if you
> > smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.
> >
> > Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion.
Tell
> > him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about
how
> > you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two of
> you
> > need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for
each
> > other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad kid,
> just
> > a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.
> >
> > Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who
does
> > and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you
deserve
> > each other.
> >
> > When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in,
you
> > won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I
replied
> > to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.
> >
>
> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from the
very
> first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the point. Yet you
> still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well these days!!!!


you're a sweatheart as always :)

I just got in from the beach and my bum is all sun burnt again lol

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
>
> > Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> > the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> > point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> > these days!!!!
> >
> > Lisa
>
> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>

And what you gonna do about it?



**** off bitch

dolores wrote:
> > wrote in message
> news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01... Snip
>
> Lorian, OMG....this post!!!.. I cannot even begin to imagine how you
> must have suffered, firstly as a child and now as an adult. Not only
> were you shortchanged by your parents, but their abuse of you was
> their legacy to you and is probably the cause of your illness.

I was born with my mental illness, manic-depression, also called bipolar
disorder, is genetic. But what has really been a problem is the PTSD (post
traumatic stress disorder) and that did come from abuse from my parents and
the abusers in my life.

And
> this legacy of theirs has not only hurt you, but is being handed down
> to your son, but not deliberately on your part. You've obviously
> worked hard at not being your mother or father...But that's one hell
> of a tough thing to do...It's a known fact that abuse is a hard cycle
> to break...and all credit to you for what you've done...You've broken
> the physical cycle from what I can gather...but the psychological one
> is the hardest....but you are obviously trying and deserve credit for
> it. I cant imaging how worn down and tired you must be. These
> teenage years of your sons are probably going to be the hardest too,
> my heart goes out to you.
>
> I think you should be congratulated on the gift of education you've
> given your son. I reckon this is one part of you that hasnt been
> contanimated by your parents. You were clear, determined and knew
> what you were doing. I would say this most definitely came across to
> your son, otherwise he wouldnt be as knowledgeable as he is. I'd say
> he has a quiet respect for this side of you.

Now if your parents had
> left you alone, brought you up with kindness, decency and been good
> to you, then the mother that educated your son would be the same
> mother that knew how to set boundaries, say no and be comfortable in
> her own skin (if that makes sense).

That is exactly what I feel like.

Unfortuantely they stripped you
> of this and it's been your downfall. I dont think it's your fault, I
> think its theirs. As a result your son has had to deal with two
> mothers, the one that knew what she was doing and the other one that
> was grasping at straws, grappling with herself and unsure. He
> probably sensed this from a very young age and got away with murder,

this has always been one of my fears, that one of my abusers would kill me
and get away with it, because I am "crazy", they would claim self defense
and with no witnesses... even though I have never been violent.

> now he's older and fighting back, or more to the point begging for
> help but doesnt have the know how. Reading your post about the mocha
> drink he *sounds* like one hell of a spoilt brat!! (Sorry, no offence
> intended). I would say though it's more a case that you are the only
> person that he has that he can really truly be himself with, and is
> letting out all his frustrations on you.
>
> I believe kicking him out on to the street will probably destroy him
> and ruin all the hard work you've put in, not to mention a waste of
> all the hours of agony that you've gone through. You'd be
> perpetuating the cycle too..... Breaking it however, is tough and I
> dont think you will be able to do it on your own, simply cos you
> havent got the tools or know how (thanks to your parents). This is
> where fostering to a good home where there are other kids would be a
> good idea. It would help him in the future, but do nothing for you
> as a parent. And you need help too.

I wish the system would recognize that. Thank you.

> Going by what you've said it seems to me that this lad didnt really
> have many rules or boundaries imposed on him, probably becuase you
> didnt know how to say no.....not that you didnt want to...just
> probably cos you didnt know when it was appropriate....God!!...I hope
> I'm not offending you here....

Also, as he became a man beginning two years ago I became afraid to say no,
that is how I react to men, even though he is my own son, and that is how he
got this way over time. I saw this happening two years ago and tried to get
help then, even placing him temporarily in my aunt's home and trying to get
help from they system but nobody really heard me.

> This lad sounds as though he really and truly needs genuine love and
> attention, to know that he is cherished, *important to somebody*,
> ideally you...and needed. You really need to let him know that you
> truly love him and that love is unconditional. After all, given what
> he witnessed as a child you are hardly in a position to expect
> pristine behaviour when your own wasnt that great....and he know this
> and will flog it to the death if you let him. You cant threaten him
> with the door because his behaviour is in the gutter, when he grew up
> watching your behaviour with these men.

What's weird for him probably is that all my friends are men. I am a
computer technician, how many other women computer technicians do you think
I know? None. All the computer hardware and software sales clerks are men,
all the tech support people I talk to are men, all the security guards,
bartenders, cooks, dishwashes, dj's, and barbacks I hang out with at the bar
I go to are men, and in my physics class at school they are mostly men. But
they all stay where I meet them, I always come home alone. So, he hasn't
had any real role models in his daily life. The guys who did enter our
lives were always unhealthy and didn't stay for long, I did my best.

> If he's willing, sit him down, tell him about your own childhood, how
> you felt at the time and how it affected you growing up. Acknowledge
> to him that maybe you werent the best parent starting off but now you
> know you were wrong. *Ask* him what he needs from you. Make it
> quite clear that he is as much a part of the family as you are and
> this is his home, it always will be. Tell him that you *need* his
> help at sorting this out and that you are going to keep trying, you
> will never give up on him. Get him to open up to you if you can.

I will do that when we are ready.

> However, at some point you really have to set boundaries and rules,
> give him responsiblity in the home. If this is his home, as much as
> yours, then he should treat it as such and pull his weight. And
> these rules have to apply to you too. He is entitled to expect a
> certain standard of behaviour from you too, just as my lads are
> entitled to expect a certain standard of behaviour from me.

What exactly does this look like?

> Threatening to throw him on the street is just a more subtle way of
> perpetuating the cycle of abuse that you recieved, it's instilling
> fear and builds hostility in his mind.

yeah, I can see that. I didn't do that, I just pointed out that when he
told me how I didn't do anything around here that if he thought he could
manage a household better he could go get himself emancipated and manage his
own household.

> If he's not willing to listen, or it ends up in a fight, sit down and
> write a letter/email to him. Dont doubt he will read it, a letter
> never goes unread.

> However, I do feel it would do him the world of good to go and see
> how other people live. Call it fostering if you like, but I'd be more
> inclined to tell him that this is a great opportunity for him to go
> and see how other people live. Be open about the fact that it will
> show him how wrong some of the things you did were, and this is a
> great chance to break the loop. After all, in years to come he might
> have a family of his own and this time seeing how another family
> behave might be his saving grace.

Can I go to a foster home? Can someone parent me so that I can learn what
it feels like to have two parents who love me? No? damn.

> If he does go to another family though make sure you see or speak to
> him every single day, without fail, at the same time every day too,
> so that he knows he can rely on you. First thing in the morning to
> wish him well and last thing after dinner to see how he is and how he
> got on. When he comes home ask him what he thinks, and get him to
> talk in detail if you can, be open about the differences between how
> you dealt with hiim and how they do. Make it quite clear that this is
> only a temporary arrangement, that you are under no circumstances
> turning your back on him or giving up on him.

I will.

And while he is off
> with this other family you should foster yourself out
> too.....Parenting classes are a start and I'm sure if you asked
> around someone could give you some idea of where to go...... ]

ok. I will look for parents anonymous.

> Well, all the above are only my opinion, for what its worth and hope I
> havent offened you, as that is not my intention. I'm not really
> qualified or experienced enough either cos my lads are still only
> young at 11 and 13, I dont have the wisdom of hindsight as of
> yet...as many others here in the group do......However, I really feel
> for what you are going through and hope you and your son manage to
> get through this. Best of luck

thank you for being there for me when I need you Dolores. This means a lot
to me.

[Lisa aka Surfer]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > news:rfhSa.101006$H17.30659@sccrnsc02...
> > >
> > > > yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I am
> > > > depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden onothers,
> but
> > > my
> > > > poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and
> through
> > > the
> > > > fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he
must
> > > have
> > > > felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be
there
> > for
> > > > him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I am
> > sure.
> > > > Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression.
> When
> > I
> > > > am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel worthless,
no
> > > > matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.
> > >
> > >
> > > You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you. This
is
> > all
> > > real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this
stuff,
> > but
> > > accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know
> where
> > > he's comming from.
> > >
> > > Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine
being
> > > your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be rejected
by
> > > people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you
were
> > in
> > > your harder moments.
> > >
> > > My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for
yourself,
> > > sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit
> better
> > > then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday, call
a
> > > friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and
> listen,
> > > and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you
> don't
> > > know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a
womans
> > > shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if
you
> > > smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.
> > >
> > > Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion.
> Tell
> > > him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here about
> how
> > > you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the two
of
> > you
> > > need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for
> each
> > > other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad
kid,
> > just
> > > a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.
> > >
> > > Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who
> does
> > > and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you
> deserve
> > > each other.
> > >
> > > When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part in,
> you
> > > won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I
> replied
> > > to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.
> > >
> >
> > Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from the
> very
> > first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the point. Yet you
> > still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well these days!!!!
>
>
> you're a sweatheart as always :)
>
> I just got in from the beach and my bum is all sun burnt again lol
>
>

Oh for goodness sakes,,,,,were you in Gatineau again?

LOL.....silly

There's water proof sunscreen you know

Surf

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > news:rfhSa.101006$H17.30659@sccrnsc02...
> > > >
> > > > > yeah, because when I have confidence others react to that. When I
am
> > > > > depressed I try to isolate myself so as not to be a burden
onothers,
> > but
> > > > my
> > > > > poor son has always been around me through these mood swings and
> > through
> > > > the
> > > > > fall out of the trauma of the abuse I've taken from others and he
> must
> > > > have
> > > > > felt so powerless to help me and of course I was not able to be
> there
> > > for
> > > > > him emotionally, that is a big part of why he is so angry at me I
am
> > > sure.
> > > > > Also, my confidence level is a main factor of my manic-depression.
> > When
> > > I
> > > > > am manic, I am very confident when I am depressed I feel
worthless,
> no
> > > > > matter what. The meds help a lot but only go so far.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You know what, this is the sanest thing i've ever read from you.
This
> is
> > > all
> > > > real stuff. Don't tolerate what your kid is doing because of this
> stuff,
> > > but
> > > > accepting you played a part in causing it is a huge deal. Also, know
> > where
> > > > he's comming from.
> > > >
> > > > Think of when your at wits end with everything around you. imagine
> being
> > > > your son, unable to stop it. Think of how it hurts you to be
rejected
> by
> > > > people you care about, then think of how he must have felt when you
> were
> > > in
> > > > your harder moments.
> > > >
> > > > My advice, let him cool off in foster care. Take some time for
> yourself,
> > > > sleep in a bit if your work situation permits it, try to eat a bit
> > better
> > > > then normal for a while, try to go for a half hour walk everyday,
call
> a
> > > > friend once a day, don't dump on them, ask them how they are, and
> > listen,
> > > > and once a day, without telling anyone, do something for someone you
> > don't
> > > > know. Throw some change at a bum, drop some old clothes off at a
> womans
> > > > shelter, volunteer somewhere, offeer a homeless guy a cigarette ( if
> you
> > > > smoke ) doensn't have to be anything huge, just don't tell anyone.
> > > >
> > > > Then after al that, sit down with your son, have a frank discussion.
> > Tell
> > > > him you know he's had it rough, tell him what you just said here
about
> > how
> > > > you know you affect him. Then tell him that despite all that, the
two
> of
> > > you
> > > > need to have a relationship together where you have some respect for
> > each
> > > > other. It'll be hard at first, but i don't think your son is a bad
> kid,
> > > just
> > > > a hurt one acting bad. I think you'll both find alot of forgiveness.
> > > >
> > > > Good luck, I don't like you as a person, and It shouldn't matter who
> > does
> > > > and who doesn't anyways. you do have a child, and the both of you
> > deserve
> > > > each other.
> > > >
> > > > When you start taking responsibility for the stuff you have a part
in,
> > you
> > > > won't feel the need to **** on yourself unfairly anymore Lorian. I
> > replied
> > > > to this mostly cause it looks like your starting to do that.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
the
> > very
> > > first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the point. Yet
you
> > > still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well these days!!!!
> >
> >
> > you're a sweatheart as always :)
> >
> > I just got in from the beach and my bum is all sun burnt again lol
> >
> >
>
> Oh for goodness sakes,,,,,were you in Gatineau again?

Oka beach actually hehe,. more people. some of those guys though , lol, well
i wouldn't if I were them
>
> LOL.....silly
>
> There's water proof sunscreen you know
>

heh

hot ass ... lol
> Surf
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> > Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> >
> > > Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> > > the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> > > point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> > > these days!!!!
> > >
> > > Lisa
> >
> > Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
>
> And what you gonna do about it?
>
>
>
> **** off bitch
>
>

Typical looney lorain.......straight out of the 'women's studies'
textbook.............if they don't agree with you, label them abusive etc.

[Tiffany]

> wrote in message news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
>
> > Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> > the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> > point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> > these days!!!!
> >
> > Lisa
>
> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here as
> always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was able to
> resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and she did get
> through to me in email. Because she did truly care for me and my son's
best
> interests. You never have. You have always been catty and superior and
> very hurtful to me and I will not allow you to continue to do that to me
> here.
>
>
>
>

L, you need to let go of this 'being abused online' stuff. No one can hurt
you unless you let them, online. Don't read their posts for god sake.

[dolores]

> wrote in message news:vZDSa.107781$N7.14327@sccrnsc03...
> dolores wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01... Snip
> >
> > Lorian, OMG....this post!!!.. I cannot even begin to imagine how you
> > must have suffered, firstly as a child and now as an adult. Not only
> > were you shortchanged by your parents, but their abuse of you was
> > their legacy to you and is probably the cause of your illness.
>
> I was born with my mental illness, manic-depression, also called bipolar
> disorder, is genetic. But what has really been a problem is the PTSD
(post
> traumatic stress disorder) and that did come from abuse from my parents
and
> the abusers in my life.
>
> And
> > this legacy of theirs has not only hurt you, but is being handed down
> > to your son, but not deliberately on your part. You've obviously
> > worked hard at not being your mother or father...But that's one hell
> > of a tough thing to do...It's a known fact that abuse is a hard cycle
> > to break...and all credit to you for what you've done...You've broken
> > the physical cycle from what I can gather...but the psychological one
> > is the hardest....but you are obviously trying and deserve credit for
> > it. I cant imaging how worn down and tired you must be. These
> > teenage years of your sons are probably going to be the hardest too,
> > my heart goes out to you.
> >
> > I think you should be congratulated on the gift of education you've
> > given your son. I reckon this is one part of you that hasnt been
> > contanimated by your parents. You were clear, determined and knew
> > what you were doing. I would say this most definitely came across to
> > your son, otherwise he wouldnt be as knowledgeable as he is. I'd say
> > he has a quiet respect for this side of you.
>
> Now if your parents had
> > left you alone, brought you up with kindness, decency and been good
> > to you, then the mother that educated your son would be the same
> > mother that knew how to set boundaries, say no and be comfortable in
> > her own skin (if that makes sense).
>
> That is exactly what I feel like.
>
> Unfortuantely they stripped you
> > of this and it's been your downfall. I dont think it's your fault, I
> > think its theirs. As a result your son has had to deal with two
> > mothers, the one that knew what she was doing and the other one that
> > was grasping at straws, grappling with herself and unsure. He
> > probably sensed this from a very young age and got away with murder,
>
> this has always been one of my fears, that one of my abusers would kill me
> and get away with it, because I am "crazy", they would claim self defense
> and with no witnesses... even though I have never been violent.

No I didn't mean *real* murder (getting away with murder must be an Irish
phrase). I meant that he knew he could push the boundaries with you cos he
could tell you had difficulty saying no....
>
> > now he's older and fighting back, or more to the point begging for
> > help but doesnt have the know how. Reading your post about the mocha
> > drink he *sounds* like one hell of a spoilt brat!! (Sorry, no offence
> > intended). I would say though it's more a case that you are the only
> > person that he has that he can really truly be himself with, and is
> > letting out all his frustrations on you.
> >
> > I believe kicking him out on to the street will probably destroy him
> > and ruin all the hard work you've put in, not to mention a waste of
> > all the hours of agony that you've gone through. You'd be
> > perpetuating the cycle too..... Breaking it however, is tough and I
> > dont think you will be able to do it on your own, simply cos you
> > havent got the tools or know how (thanks to your parents). This is
> > where fostering to a good home where there are other kids would be a
> > good idea. It would help him in the future, but do nothing for you
> > as a parent. And you need help too.
>
> I wish the system would recognize that. Thank you.
>
> > Going by what you've said it seems to me that this lad didnt really
> > have many rules or boundaries imposed on him, probably becuase you
> > didnt know how to say no.....not that you didnt want to...just
> > probably cos you didnt know when it was appropriate....God!!...I hope
> > I'm not offending you here....
>
> Also, as he became a man beginning two years ago I became afraid to say
no,
> that is how I react to men, even though he is my own son, and that is how
he
> got this way over time. I saw this happening two years ago and tried to
get
> help then, even placing him temporarily in my aunt's home and trying to
get
> help from they system but nobody really heard me.
>
> > This lad sounds as though he really and truly needs genuine love and
> > attention, to know that he is cherished, *important to somebody*,
> > ideally you...and needed. You really need to let him know that you
> > truly love him and that love is unconditional. After all, given what
> > he witnessed as a child you are hardly in a position to expect
> > pristine behaviour when your own wasnt that great....and he know this
> > and will flog it to the death if you let him. You cant threaten him
> > with the door because his behaviour is in the gutter, when he grew up
> > watching your behaviour with these men.
>
> What's weird for him probably is that all my friends are men. I am a
> computer technician, how many other women computer technicians do you
think
> I know? None. All the computer hardware and software sales clerks are
men,
> all the tech support people I talk to are men, all the security guards,
> bartenders, cooks, dishwashes, dj's, and barbacks I hang out with at the
bar
> I go to are men, and in my physics class at school they are mostly men.
But
> they all stay where I meet them, I always come home alone. So, he hasn't
> had any real role models in his daily life. The guys who did enter our
> lives were always unhealthy and didn't stay for long, I did my best.
>
> > If he's willing, sit him down, tell him about your own childhood, how
> > you felt at the time and how it affected you growing up. Acknowledge
> > to him that maybe you werent the best parent starting off but now you
> > know you were wrong. *Ask* him what he needs from you. Make it
> > quite clear that he is as much a part of the family as you are and
> > this is his home, it always will be. Tell him that you *need* his
> > help at sorting this out and that you are going to keep trying, you
> > will never give up on him. Get him to open up to you if you can.
>
> I will do that when we are ready.
>
> > However, at some point you really have to set boundaries and rules,
> > give him responsiblity in the home. If this is his home, as much as
> > yours, then he should treat it as such and pull his weight. And
> > these rules have to apply to you too. He is entitled to expect a
> > certain standard of behaviour from you too, just as my lads are
> > entitled to expect a certain standard of behaviour from me.
>
> What exactly does this look like?
>
> > Threatening to throw him on the street is just a more subtle way of
> > perpetuating the cycle of abuse that you recieved, it's instilling
> > fear and builds hostility in his mind.
>
> yeah, I can see that. I didn't do that, I just pointed out that when he
> told me how I didn't do anything around here that if he thought he could
> manage a household better he could go get himself emancipated and manage
his
> own household.

Oh I didnt mean *you* threatened it, I meant a few others that replied to
your post suggested it, and (personally) I dont this would be good in your
particular situation, after all who else has this lad got....and it would
probably cause more problems than it would solve, I think.
>
> > If he's not willing to listen, or it ends up in a fight, sit down and
> > write a letter/email to him. Dont doubt he will read it, a letter
> > never goes unread.
>
> > However, I do feel it would do him the world of good to go and see
> > how other people live. Call it fostering if you like, but I'd be more
> > inclined to tell him that this is a great opportunity for him to go
> > and see how other people live. Be open about the fact that it will
> > show him how wrong some of the things you did were, and this is a
> > great chance to break the loop. After all, in years to come he might
> > have a family of his own and this time seeing how another family
> > behave might be his saving grace.
>
> Can I go to a foster home? Can someone parent me so that I can learn what
> it feels like to have two parents who love me? No? damn.

This is what I think would have been ideal for you when you first became
pregnant. I think social services should try and help, not just you, but
all first time mothers that have come from an abusive family by placing them
in a family that could be considered relatively normal (cos there's no such
thing as an ideal family). Long term it would save the Gov. a whole lot of
money and there'd be a lot less children in this world suffering, simply cos
the parents had no idea how to be parents.
>
> > If he does go to another family though make sure you see or speak to
> > him every single day, without fail, at the same time every day too,
> > so that he knows he can rely on you. First thing in the morning to
> > wish him well and last thing after dinner to see how he is and how he
> > got on. When he comes home ask him what he thinks, and get him to
> > talk in detail if you can, be open about the differences between how
> > you dealt with hiim and how they do. Make it quite clear that this is
> > only a temporary arrangement, that you are under no circumstances
> > turning your back on him or giving up on him.
>
> I will.
>
> And while he is off
> > with this other family you should foster yourself out
> > too.....Parenting classes are a start and I'm sure if you asked
> > around someone could give you some idea of where to go...... ]
>
> ok. I will look for parents anonymous.

Oh yeah!!.. I never thought of this group. Did you ever consider going to
them before, when your lad was little?

>
> > Well, all the above are only my opinion, for what its worth and hope I
> > havent offened you, as that is not my intention. I'm not really
> > qualified or experienced enough either cos my lads are still only
> > young at 11 and 13, I dont have the wisdom of hindsight as of
> > yet...as many others here in the group do......However, I really feel
> > for what you are going through and hope you and your son manage to
> > get through this. Best of luck
>
> thank you for being there for me when I need you Dolores. This means a
lot
> to me.

I dont know if I would call this *being there* for you, but I hope things do
get better for you.

Dolores
>
>
>

[dolores]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> > Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> >
> > > Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> > > the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> > > point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> > > these days!!!!
> > >
> > > Lisa
> >
> > Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here as
> > always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was able to
> > resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and she did get
> > through to me in email. Because she did truly care for me and my son's
> best
> > interests. You never have. You have always been catty and superior and
> > very hurtful to me and I will not allow you to continue to do that to me
> > here.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> L, you need to let go of this 'being abused online' stuff. No one can hurt
> you unless you let them, online. Don't read their posts for god sake.
>
>
Ditto, I agree here Lorian. Killfile him, you've enough on yer plate
without making yourself read stuff that you know is going to get you down.

Dolores

dolores wrote:

> No I didn't mean *real* murder (getting away with murder must be an
> Irish phrase). I meant that he knew he could push the boundaries
> with you cos he could tell you had difficulty saying no....

"getting away with murder" is a phrase here too, it just struck a little too
close to my heart as I am so afraid of the police at this point since they
so consistently blame me and punish me whenever I ask them for help in a
crisis. And now my son has called my mother and lied to her too and she
didn't even call me to check the story out at all, she just assumed that I
was violent and told him to call his father to see if he could go live with
him. Is SHE insane? For one thing, she doesn't know me very well since she
isn't around me on a daily basis at all so she is no judge of my character
and for another thing, sending my so to call his father is sending him to
certain and painful rejection, his father doesn't WANT him. This is the man
who left me when I was pregnant and who complains about paying child
support, saying it is free money that I don't earn and that he has his
"own" family to support so he can't afford my son. I hope to God my mother
is never called upon as my next of kin to determine whether I should be
committed long term to a psychiatric unit because she told me to my face
that she assumed my son's story of me being violent was true. What a bitch.
The people in my life who do know me who know I wouldn't and couldn't hurt
him since I am physically unable are not related to me though. And she has a
history of abusing me herself but that was long ago. ****. I am so scared
now. what am I going to do? I need to find out the laws for my state and
how to get myself a guardian or something. For once I wish I was married.

> Oh I didnt mean *you* threatened it, I meant a few others that
> replied to your post suggested it, and (personally) I dont this would
> be good in your particular situation, after all who else has this lad
> got....and it would probably cause more problems than it would solve,
> I think.


> This is what I think would have been ideal for you when you first
> became pregnant. I think social services should try and help, not
> just you, but all first time mothers that have come from an abusive
> family by placing them in a family that could be considered
> relatively normal (cos there's no such thing as an ideal family).
> Long term it would save the Gov. a whole lot of money and there'd be
> a lot less children in this world suffering, simply cos the parents
> had no idea how to be parents.

I searched for it in church after church but I never found it. If I am ever
rich I will start a chain of these.


> Oh yeah!!.. I never thought of this group. Did you ever consider
> going to them before, when your lad was little?

We did go to parents anonymous when he was little but I was always living
with an abuser at the time so it only went so far I'm afraid.

> I dont know if I would call this *being there* for you, but I hope
> things do get better for you.

It is people like you who have reached out to me in these times of crisis
throughout my life that have sustained me and kept me going. I appreciate
your practical advice and words of kindness so much.

Tiffany wrote:
> > wrote in message
> news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
>> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
>>
>>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
>>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
>>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
>>> these days!!!!
>>>
>>> Lisa
>>
>> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here
>> as always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was
>> able to resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and
>> she did get through to me in email. Because she did truly care for
>> me and my son's best interests. You never have. You have always
>> been catty and superior and very hurtful to me and I will not allow
>> you to continue to do that to me here.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> L, you need to let go of this 'being abused online' stuff. No one can
> hurt you unless you let them, online. Don't read their posts for god
> sake.

Hey, don't take the responsibility off of Lisa and put it on me Tiffany.
Lisa has a very long history of being cruel to me in her posts to me. She
doesn't need to waste bandwidth targeting me when I am at my most vulnerable
with hurtful remarks but she does it all the time. There is no difference
between if she said it to me online or in the mail or on the telephone or to
my face, words hurt. Get in her face, not mine.

Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > wrote in message
> news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
>> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
>>
>>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
>>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
>>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
>>> these days!!!!
>>>
>>> Lisa
>>
>> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
>
> And what you gonna do about it?
>
>
>
> **** off bitch

So, calling me a bitch is ok with the group? It's my fault for failing to
ignore him? Tell me why it isn't his fault.

[Tiffany]

> wrote in message
et...
> Tiffany wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> >>> these days!!!!
> >>>
> >>> Lisa
> >>
> >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here
> >> as always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was
> >> able to resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and
> >> she did get through to me in email. Because she did truly care for
> >> me and my son's best interests. You never have. You have always
> >> been catty and superior and very hurtful to me and I will not allow
> >> you to continue to do that to me here.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > L, you need to let go of this 'being abused online' stuff. No one can
> > hurt you unless you let them, online. Don't read their posts for god
> > sake.
>
> Hey, don't take the responsibility off of Lisa and put it on me Tiffany.
> Lisa has a very long history of being cruel to me in her posts to me. She
> doesn't need to waste bandwidth targeting me when I am at my most
vulnerable
> with hurtful remarks but she does it all the time. There is no difference
> between if she said it to me online or in the mail or on the telephone or
to
> my face, words hurt. Get in her face, not mine.
>
>

My point is don't read them. This is the internet and anyone can say what
they want. All we can do is not read it. OR if you do read it, take it with
a grain of salt. I really don't understand why you let the written words of
people you don't know and will never know hurt you. Take the useful posts
with you, let the unuseful ones go.

Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> wrote in message news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
>> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
>
> And what you gonna do about it?
>
>
>
> **** off bitch



Tom,

you are simply proving my point as what you just did is emotional abuse!

I thought you were in recovery?

And every techie knows that databasix is the last resort of the coward
usenet poster who needs to hide behind a terms of service agreement that
allows for anything goes. Better watch it though, there are still laws to
follow...

[Tiffany]

> wrote in message news:GHISa.96500$GL4.27021@rwcrnsc53...
> Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> >>> these days!!!!
> >>>
> >>> Lisa
> >>
> >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
> >
> > And what you gonna do about it?
> >
> >
> >
> > **** off bitch
>
> So, calling me a bitch is ok with the group? It's my fault for failing to
> ignore him? Tell me why it isn't his fault.
>
>

Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't control
what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There is no one to be
at fault here. You have name called also though, maybe not using b---- but
you called Paul a women abuser which is pretty harsh. More so then being a
bitch as most women confess to being a bitch. You are dealing with alot
right now.... why make it worse by dealing with negative posts?

Tiffany wrote:
> > wrote in message

> My point is don't read them. This is the internet and anyone can say
> what they want. All we can do is not read it. OR if you do read it,
> take it with a grain of salt. I really don't understand why you let
> the written words of people you don't know and will never know hurt
> you. Take the useful posts with you, let the unuseful ones go.

to tell you the truth, the sane part of me thought of that right after I hit
send, lol.

I sometimes have to speak out for my own mental health but after that I was
going back through and seeing how Dennis and Lisa ignored Tom's vicious
reply to my original message and how he even started a whole new thread that
was even more vicious but they replied to his one positive post and either
they are deeply in denial, co-conspirators with him in some unconscious way,
or they were just trying to accentuate the positive. I have more faith in
Dennis than in Lisa based on history but the bottom line is:

take the good, leave the bad.

Tiffany wrote:

> Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't
> control what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There
> is no one to be at fault here. You have name called also though,
> maybe not using b---- but you called Paul a women abuser which is
> pretty harsh.

um, he IS a woman abuser, Paul Fritz abuses me here regularly, duh Tiffany.
More so then being a bitch as most women confess to
> being a bitch.

So, I abuse Paul Fritz worse than he abuses me? ok, you can just stop
"helping" me now, thank you. I've had enough mind games for awhile.

You are dealing with alot right now.... why make it
> worse by dealing with negative posts?

good point.

[Paul Fritz]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:GHISa.96500$GL4.27021@rwcrnsc53...
> > Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > > > wrote in message
> > > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> > >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> > >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> > >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> > >>> these days!!!!
> > >>>
> > >>> Lisa
> > >>
> > >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
> > >
> > > And what you gonna do about it?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **** off bitch
> >
> > So, calling me a bitch is ok with the group? It's my fault for failing
to
> > ignore him? Tell me why it isn't his fault.
> >
> >

poor looney lorain, still can't grasp the concept of a unmoderated NG


>
> Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't control
> what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There is no one to
be
> at fault here. You have name called also though, maybe not using b---- but
> you called Paul a women abuser which is pretty harsh.

Actually, that would just be a lie <snicker>

> More so then being a
> bitch as most women confess to being a bitch. You are dealing with alot
> right now.... why make it worse by dealing with negative posts?

Maybe because she thrives on it.

>
>

[Tiffany]

> wrote in message
et...
> Tiffany wrote:
> > > wrote in message
>
> > My point is don't read them. This is the internet and anyone can say
> > what they want. All we can do is not read it. OR if you do read it,
> > take it with a grain of salt. I really don't understand why you let
> > the written words of people you don't know and will never know hurt
> > you. Take the useful posts with you, let the unuseful ones go.
>
> to tell you the truth, the sane part of me thought of that right after I
hit
> send, lol.
>
> I sometimes have to speak out for my own mental health but after that I
was
> going back through and seeing how Dennis and Lisa ignored Tom's vicious
> reply to my original message and how he even started a whole new thread
that
> was even more vicious but they replied to his one positive post and either
> they are deeply in denial, co-conspirators with him in some unconscious
way,
> or they were just trying to accentuate the positive. I have more faith in
> Dennis than in Lisa based on history but the bottom line is:
>
> take the good, leave the bad.
>
>
>

Exactly, just like in REAL life.

[turtledove]

> wrote in message
et...
> Tiffany wrote:
> > > wrote in message
>

> take the good, leave the bad.
>

EXACTLY! It's just not worth the emotional effort to deal with the bad
stuff on usenet. I love my killfile!

Take what you need, leave what you don't.

you'll find that is what most of us do, and why we don't always respond to
posts.

hugs,
*bri

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message
et...
> Tiffany wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> >>> these days!!!!
> >>>
> >>> Lisa
> >>
> >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here
> >> as always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was
> >> able to resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and
> >> she did get through to me in email. Because she did truly care for
> >> me and my son's best interests. You never have. You have always
> >> been catty and superior and very hurtful to me and I will not allow
> >> you to continue to do that to me here.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > L, you need to let go of this 'being abused online' stuff. No one can
> > hurt you unless you let them, online. Don't read their posts for god
> > sake.
>
> Hey, don't take the responsibility off of Lisa and put it on me Tiffany.
> Lisa has a very long history of being cruel to me in her posts to me. She
> doesn't need to waste bandwidth targeting me when I am at my most
vulnerable
> with hurtful remarks but she does it all the time. There is no difference
> between if she said it to me online or in the mail or on the telephone or
to
> my face, words hurt. Get in her face, not mine.
>
>

Would you like some cheese with that WhiNE

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:GHISa.96500$GL4.27021@rwcrnsc53...
> Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> >>> these days!!!!
> >>>
> >>> Lisa
> >>
> >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
> >
> > And what you gonna do about it?
> >
> >
> >
> > **** off bitch
>
> So, calling me a bitch is ok with the group? It's my fault for failing to
> ignore him? Tell me why it isn't his fault.
>
>

You are a bitch, and a lying netk00k kunt.

More then that, your a lonney maroon. Go take your meds looney lorain.

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:DXJSa.96765$OZ2.20328@rwcrnsc54...
> Tiffany wrote:
>
> > Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't
> > control what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There
> > is no one to be at fault here. You have name called also though,
> > maybe not using b---- but you called Paul a women abuser which is
> > pretty harsh.
>
> um, he IS a woman abuser, Paul Fritz abuses me here regularly, duh
Tiffany.
> More so then being a bitch as most women confess to
> > being a bitch.
>
> So, I abuse Paul Fritz worse than he abuses me? ok, you can just stop
> "helping" me now, thank you. I've had enough mind games for awhile.
>
> You are dealing with alot right now.... why make it
> > worse by dealing with negative posts?
>
> good point.
>
>

Hey ****or, what you never got , is just cause most men who walk through
here don't like your pathetic co-dependant ass, doesn't mean we are woman
abusers.

I'll email Maureen, maybe she want's to slap you around online too this week
>

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:DXJSa.96765$OZ2.20328@rwcrnsc54...
> > Tiffany wrote:
> >
> > > Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't
> > > control what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There
> > > is no one to be at fault here. You have name called also though,
> > > maybe not using b---- but you called Paul a women abuser which is
> > > pretty harsh.
> >
> > um, he IS a woman abuser, Paul Fritz abuses me here regularly, duh
> Tiffany.
> > More so then being a bitch as most women confess to
> > > being a bitch.
> >
> > So, I abuse Paul Fritz worse than he abuses me? ok, you can just stop
> > "helping" me now, thank you. I've had enough mind games for awhile.
> >
> > You are dealing with alot right now.... why make it
> > > worse by dealing with negative posts?
> >
> > good point.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Why is one need to be worse then the other? Why does there have to be
fault?
> I didn't say you abuse Paul, but again, you are only reading what you
want.
> Why not answer my question on why you let this become abuse? Why do you
read
> posts or take it to heart when you don't even know these people?
>
>

mark my words, that if you insist she take responsibility for her own posts,
you'll get lumped in with me, Maureen, lisa and many more who've been here
for years.

Looney Lorain doesn't do the responsibility thang.

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message
et...
> Tiffany wrote:
> > > wrote in message
>
> > My point is don't read them. This is the internet and anyone can say
> > what they want. All we can do is not read it. OR if you do read it,
> > take it with a grain of salt. I really don't understand why you let
> > the written words of people you don't know and will never know hurt
> > you. Take the useful posts with you, let the unuseful ones go.
>
> to tell you the truth, the sane part of me thought of that right after I
hit
> send, lol.


Hashahahahahahahahahah
hahahahahahahahahaha

too little, too late, as usual.

hahaha

[Rolly The Pervert]

"'Kate" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:42:15 -0400, "Rolly The Pervert"
> > wasted bandwidth once again by posting:
>
> >
> > wrote in message
news:QPISa.96297$OZ2.20417@rwcrnsc54...
> >> Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> >> >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
> >> >
> >> > And what you gonna do about it?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > **** off bitch
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Tom,
> >>
> >> you are simply proving my point as what you just did is emotional
abuse!
> >
> >Shut up bitch.
> >>
> >> I thought you were in recovery?
> >
> >hahahahaha bitch.
> >>
> >> And every techie knows that databasix is the last resort of the coward
> >
> >No bitch, meow, YHBT.
> >
> >You ain;t a techie either ****or, just cause you got a free email addy
lol.
> >
> >Take credit for anyone elses work lately fraud?
> >
> >> usenet poster who needs to hide behind a terms of service agreement
that
> >> allows for anything goes. Better watch it though, there are still laws
to
> >> follow...
> >
> >hahaha, hahahaha looney lorian, you just bought off more then you can
chew.
> >again.
> >
> >Cal the cops bitch. Email databasix ****. Your just ****ed you can't
> >netkkkop me.
> >
> >Looney Lorain, your new friends will turn on you to, just like your old
ones
> >did, cause you are a backstabbing ****, whos ****ing up their kids life.
> >
> >Shame on you ****.
>
> Geez... this is really just disgusting. Not for nothin' but don't you
> have something better to do than this???
>
> 'Kate
>

kate, you've admited outside this group you know she's nuts.
She's now claiming I abuse my kids physicaly.

You kate, are only going after me, because you know what type of online
asskicking she's about to get.

[Cele]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 01:38:59 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

>
> wrote in message news:W7PRa.88994$H17.27268@sccrnsc02...
>> CME wrote:
>> > > wrote in message
>> > news:CurRa.80070$ye4.60298@sccrnsc01...
>>
>> > If it was me, and of course this is the only way I can give you
>> > advice on this issue... and I DO know where you're coming from, in
>> > many ways. But if it was me, I'd try the Tough Love strategy. If he
>> > STEALS your car, you call the Police. If he disrespects you and your
>> > rules, kick him out. I remember what it was like to be 16 and your
>> > son is displaying similar behaviours. My parents gave me a choice.
>> > Either go to school (I dropped out in Gr.11), get a job, or get out.
>> > Of course, being the stubborn fool-headed girl I was, I got out. I
>> > packed some bags and went to stay with friends. It was the best
>> > thing my parents EVER did for me. ****ing wake-up call, let me tell
>> > you. Of course I got into some trouble, I even moved to a different
>> > city for awhile...
>>
>> I'm so scared that he will wind up on the streets out there, he is not
>able
>> to cut it with his peers now, and we just live in a working class
>> neighborhood, he'd be ripped to shreds out there on the streets, he'd wind
>> up on drugs, fodder for sexual predators, oh, god.
>>
>
>And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
>make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
>your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him out,
>it was his choice, and if he does wind up on the street, then you make him
>aware that he can always come home.
>
>> but you know what? I came back, and not only have
>> > I grown up, I understand my parents and I would have done the same
>> > thing! And I will if my sons ever pull the **** that *I* did. You
>> > are NOT doing him any favours by catering to him. When he leaves
>> > your home as an adult, he won't have anyone to cater to him,
>>
>> sure he will, there are lots of women just like me! (bowing my head in
>> shame, it all comes so clear to me now. the abusive guys i've loved, they
>> abused me because they needed me to take care of them...)
>>
>> and
>> > he'll grow up thinking the world owes him a favour. Lorian, please,
>> > please stand up for yourself. Do not let him disrespect you like
>> > that, YOU deserve better. Period.
>>
>> well, i hear you but i can't feel it inside but for today i will take your
>> word for it. maybe one day soon i will believe it about myself again. i
>am
>> trying very hard to pretend and to take steps to stand up for myself but i
>> am always pretending, so many people treat me like i don't matter, it's
>not
>> just my son. it's the police, the hospital staff, the social services
>> system, but then there are those rare people who see the glow in me and
>the
>> light clicks back on...
>>
>Just a thought, but have you ever considered that the way people see you, is
>a reflection of how you see yourself? How can you expect others to see your
>value, if YOU do not even see it? I'm a big believer in self-image and
>directing my own life... if you believe you're worthless etc, then why would
>others think differently? Not letting people walk all over you is part of
>that too, it's about self-respect. I've come a looooong way baby, because I
>*used* to see my value through others, namely men, and although I thought I
>was a good person, there was always that little voice inside of me, you know
>the one, the one that says you're nothing (well it was actually my mother in
>my head, but that's another story. lol) Well it's hard work to break that
>cycle, and therapy helped me see all these things (well that and just basic
>University classes). So if *I* can do it, so can you Lorian.
>
>Christine

This is what happens when I come in late on a thread. I keep reading,
thinking of things that I would like to say, and then finding that
people like Christine and Brianne have already said them better than I
would have done.

Right on, Christine.

I'll still write, Lorian, after I've read the whole thread....

Cele

[Cele]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:55:57 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

>Yeah, mine was probably when I left home and realized how bloody naive I
>was. The only thing that kept me alive was that I had brains, and I learned
>fast. I even remember spending a cold, hungry night outside walking the
>piers of Victoria because I had no where else to go. What a rough
>awakening. But my truly defining moment didn't come until later, when I
>became pregnant. I knew I was responsible for someone other than myself,
>and I needed to get my **** together. I'm proud that I've made it.

Hey, did you grow up in Victoria??? When did you leave? I went to Vic
High.....

I wonder if we know each other? Or do I vaguely remember that you're
younger than I am?

Cele

Tiffany wrote:

> Why is one need to be worse then the other?

YOU are the one who just said that what I was doing was worse.

> Why does there have to be fault?

Again, YOU blamed ME, as usual.

I didn't say you abuse Paul, but again, you are only reading
> what you want.

Yes you did. You said I name called by pointing out that he is a woman
abuser, and you equated that to him calling me a bitch, which I of course
think is not the same thing.

Why not answer my question on why you let this become
> abuse?

It's not within my control to let it become anything, it is HIS
responsibility and HIS intention to make it so. It is HIS campaign of
hatred targeted at me and his fixation on me which is clear by his specific
name calling of me "Looney Lorain" and how he has dug up peterd's old name
calling of me "maroon" to continue that legacy of hate and how he uses my
women's studies education against me and my feminist ideals against me,
anything pertaining to anything womanly about me in particular not to the
other women on this newsgroup but only on me. That is abuse.


Why do you read posts or take it to heart when you don't even
> know these people?

Would you say that about the positive posts on here? No? Then why would you
say it about the negative ones?

Betsy wrote:

> In regards to your health status, you can designate a Health Care
> Surrogate, or Power of Attorney for Health Care. It does not have to
> be a relative, but does have to be notarized. Usually that precludes
> the 'next of kin' call. Instead they call your HCS. Your HCS can be
> a friend you trust, your spouse, or a family member, or an adult
> child. Just remember whomever you designate must be someone you
> trust, and must know your wishes in an emergency. Hope this helped.
>
> Betsy

thank you, now I have to find someone who I can really trust. isn't that
sad? sheesh. I can't say enough how much this information helps. thank you
again.

[Cele]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:01:25 +0100, "Dennis Here"
oureply> wrote:

>
>CME wrote in message ...
>>
>>And you know what? That's the risk you take, but what you need to do is
>>make him realize that if he's to live in your house, he needs to respect
>>your rules and really the choice is his. If he leaves or you kick him out,
>
>
>Snip other good advice
>
>I have to disagree here Christine as my POV is a lot different to yours.
>I do not live in "my" house with my son, I live in our house. House rules
>are two way, I don't set them, we agree to them. Obviously at Freddie's age
>some basics are more my domain than his but at the age of Lorian's son, and
>I have two grown sons go through this stage, there has to be a big element
>of give and take based on mutual respect. It seems that going through an
>angst stage where he has little respect for her or anyone else for that
>matter. He is testing his limits and is finding that they are almost
>limitless at the moment. He will not stop until he realises that treating
>people with contempt if not the best way in life. He will be thinking, and
>not without reason, that everyone around him is treating him with contempt
>too. He thinks that he knows better than his mother and is ready and
>confident enough to find out for himself. To us it is a dreadfull stage in
>the development of an adolescent boy, to him it is merely testing the water
>and establishing himself as an adult capable of finding his own way in life.
>I left home a 16. I was fed up with the restrictions and expectations of my
>father. We fought all the time. I disagreed with everything he said and
>stood for. I was going to change the world. I would play Bob Dylan records
>at full volume just to **** him off! To an outsider I was an arrogant
>arsehole with a big attitude. To myself and my piers I was a self confident
>ground breaker who new where he was going for myself.

I think I understand where you're coming from, Dennis, and I know that
a lot of what you say is often true. My ex husband, for example,
describes an extremely similar stage in his own development, at the
same age. His epiphany was interfered with as he broke his neck on the
second day of grade eleven, and spent the next eight months in
hospital dealing with having become a quadriplegic. But the times, the
feelings, the attitudes and behaviours he describes from that
pre-injury time seem very much to be what you're talking about. He
ended up spending that summer that he was sixteen putting up massive
bales of hay as a residential farm worker, and he reckons that time
away from home did him a great deal of good.

All that said, I'll just point out from my own experience, that
teenage acting out and traumatised, damaged teenage wigging out look
very, very different. I have daughters, not sons, as you know, but the
difference between the adolescent rebellion my eldest went through and
the wounded, completely out of control rage that my youngest
experienced, is very great. And it's quite often that parents who've
experienced normal range adolesence with all its rebellion and
downright obnoxiousness are unable to identify with parents dealing
with the other kind, at least IME.

Lorian's son doesn't sound like a normally rebellious teen to me.
Maybe he is, but he sounds over the top. I could be wrong, you could
be wrong. We're not there, and one of Lorian's many jobs is to work
out what exactly she's dealing with. I'm hearing her say that he's not
normal range, and that she's got a number of thoughts on why that
might be. What she does really does need to take into account what
she's dealing with.

>I suppose the biggest breakthrough was made by my mother as I still remember
>it clearly. After a full blast rendition of a Bob Dylan track entitled "My
>back Pages" from the Anotherside of LP, she quietly said that she really
>liked that one. I was thoroughly ****ed off that I had had the opposite
>affect to that intended and went to listen to it again quietly. I had only
>heard what I wanted to hear and completely overlooked the chorus.
>Here are the words from
>http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/backpages.html
>
>Crimson flames tied through my ears
>Rollin' high and mighty traps
>Pounced with fire on flaming roads
>Using ideas as my maps
>"We'll meet on edges, soon," said I
>Proud 'neath heated brow.
>Ah, but I was so much older then,
>I'm younger than that now.
>
>Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
>"Rip down all hate," I screamed
>Lies that life is black and white
>Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
>Romantic facts of musketeers
>Foundationed deep, somehow.
>Ah, but I was so much older then,
>I'm younger than that now.
>
>Girls' faces formed the forward path
>From phony jealousy
>To memorizing politics
>Of ancient history
>Flung down by corpse evangelists
>Unthought of, though, somehow.
>Ah, but I was so much older then,
>I'm younger than that now.
>
>A self-ordained professor's tongue
>Too serious to fool
>Spouted out that liberty
>Is just equality in school
>"Equality," I spoke the word
>As if a wedding vow.
>Ah, but I was so much older then,
>I'm younger than that now.
>
>In a soldier's stance, I aimed my hand
>At the mongrel dogs who teach
>Fearing not that I'd become my enemy
>In the instant that I preach
>My pathway led by confusion boats
>Mutiny from stern to bow.
>Ah, but I was so much older then,
>I'm younger than that now.
>
>Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
>Too noble to neglect
>Deceived me into thinking
>I had something to protect
>Good and bad, I define these terms
>Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
>Ah, but I was so much older then,
>I'm younger than that now.
>
>My teenage hero had already seen the light! and my mother had seen it before
>I had!
>
>Lets hope that Lorian's son also has some kind of defining moment that he
>will see for himself, however that may happen.

Yes, absolutely, let's hope so. I love that Dylan song myself, and so,
BTW, does my ex, referred to above. I suspect you and he might have
some other things in common. :-) He's a good guy; that's a compliment,
not an insult, just so you know.

Meanwhile, on the one hand, I agree that 'freeing' her son to go might
be the making of him. Many a youth has left a home out of control, and
found out a lot about themselves and life by going to the street for
awhile, and come back the wiser and stronger for it.

On the other hand, I totally identify with Lorian's fear of seeing him
follow that path. Your own reference to your friends who died tells us
that the street is not a place that all escape unscathed, and a
sixteen year old who has become badly confused and enraged might well
have experiences that do him great damage. It's as likely as his
having experiences that strengthen him.

The solution seems to be to 'let him go' but to seek a healthy place
to go to. Lorian appears to be doing that, within the limits of her
resources. I suspect that before a whole lot longer he'll decide the
matter himself, because gone seventeen, it's pretty hard to keep them
if they don't want to stay. And I hope earnestly for both of their
sakes that the choices he makes turn out in the end to help rather
than hurt his growth.

Cele

[Rolly The Pervert]

Told you tiffany.

Don't bother replying to her, you'll only become an abuser yourself. More
then that, she snips out anythign relevant in her replies to disguise her BS
a bit better.

> wrote in message
. net...
> Tiffany wrote:
>
> > Why is one need to be worse then the other?
>
> YOU are the one who just said that what I was doing was worse.
>
> > Why does there have to be fault?
>
> Again, YOU blamed ME, as usual.
>
> I didn't say you abuse Paul, but again, you are only reading
> > what you want.
>
> Yes you did. You said I name called by pointing out that he is a woman
> abuser, and you equated that to him calling me a bitch, which I of course
> think is not the same thing.
>
> Why not answer my question on why you let this become
> > abuse?
>
> It's not within my control to let it become anything, it is HIS
> responsibility and HIS intention to make it so. It is HIS campaign of
> hatred targeted at me and his fixation on me which is clear by his
specific
> name calling of me "Looney Lorain" and how he has dug up peterd's old name
> calling of me "maroon" to continue that legacy of hate and how he uses my
> women's studies education against me and my feminist ideals against me,
> anything pertaining to anything womanly about me in particular not to the
> other women on this newsgroup but only on me. That is abuse.
>
>
> Why do you read posts or take it to heart when you don't even
> > know these people?
>
> Would you say that about the positive posts on here? No? Then why would
you
> say it about the negative ones?
>
>
>
>

[Cele]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:53:10 GMT, > wrote:

>Tiffany wrote:
>
>> Why is one need to be worse then the other?
>
>YOU are the one who just said that what I was doing was worse.
>
>> Why does there have to be fault?
>
>Again, YOU blamed ME, as usual.
>
> I didn't say you abuse Paul, but again, you are only reading
>> what you want.
>
>Yes you did. You said I name called by pointing out that he is a woman
>abuser, and you equated that to him calling me a bitch, which I of course
>think is not the same thing.
>
> Why not answer my question on why you let this become
>> abuse?
>
>It's not within my control to let it become anything, it is HIS
>responsibility and HIS intention to make it so.

I could be wrong, and I'm sure Tiffany will correct me if I am, but I
think she may be making a point about giving the comments power rather
than, exactly, letting them become abuse.

I've made myself extremely clear on this issue in the past, so I won't
bore everyone with a repeat. My position is expressed here, if anyone
cares:
http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=Paul+%22moral+wrong%22+group:alt.support. single-parents&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=uc8a6v4g11csnb09ea6iiv4lkqbaoh1an9%404ax.com&rnum=1

However much Paul et.al. have complete control of and responsibility
for their behaviour, Lorian, you have control of how much power you
assign them. Are their remarks worth giving them any power at all? Not
allowing them power means not allowing them the privilege of hurting
you.

If you see what I mean. :-/

Take care.

Cele

>
>Would you say that about the positive posts on here? No? Then why would you
>say it about the negative ones?

The positive posts come from another place, and are worthy of
consideration. As are some that also come from the spirit of support
or assistance, but that are hard to hear.

But the bullying isn't worth giving power to. Not just with you, in
this situation. In general, with everyone. Bullying is low and foul.
Why afford it any power or dignity at all?

Cele

[Cele]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:50:16 -0500, 'Kate >
wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:35:00 -0400, "Rolly The Pervert"
> wasted bandwidth once again by posting:
>
>>
> wrote in message news:GHISa.96500$GL4.27021@rwcrnsc53...
>>> Rolly The Pervert wrote:
>>> > > wrote in message
>>> > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
>>> >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
>>> >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
>>> >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
>>> >>> these days!!!!
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Lisa
>>> >>
>>> >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
>>> >
>>> > And what you gonna do about it?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > **** off bitch
>>>
>>> So, calling me a bitch is ok with the group? It's my fault for failing to
>>> ignore him? Tell me why it isn't his fault.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>You are a bitch, and a lying netk00k kunt.
>>
>>More then that, your a lonney maroon. Go take your meds looney lorain.
>
>Worse than a vulture pickin' on carrion.

Glad to see you back, Kate. I hope you are doing as well as possible.
I think of you.

And oh, btw, this was beautifully expressed. :-)

Cele

[Cele]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:56:44 GMT, > wrote:

>Tiffany wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
>>> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
>>>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
>>>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
>>>> these days!!!!
>>>>
>>>> Lisa
>>>
>>> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here
>>> as always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was
>>> able to resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and
>>> she did get through to me in email. Because she did truly care for
>>> me and my son's best interests. You never have. You have always
>>> been catty and superior and very hurtful to me and I will not allow
>>> you to continue to do that to me here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> L, you need to let go of this 'being abused online' stuff. No one can
>> hurt you unless you let them, online. Don't read their posts for god
>> sake.
>
>Hey, don't take the responsibility off of Lisa and put it on me Tiffany.
>Lisa has a very long history of being cruel to me in her posts to me. She
>doesn't need to waste bandwidth targeting me when I am at my most vulnerable
>with hurtful remarks but she does it all the time. There is no difference
>between if she said it to me online or in the mail or on the telephone or to
>my face, words hurt. Get in her face, not mine.
>
Tiffany really seems to be trying to help. It's not your job to cure
them of abusive behaviour. That's *their* job. I think Tiffany's point
might be along the lines of letting go of it for *your* sake. Who
cares whether they deal with their issues? You don't have to fix them.
And abusive behaviour is *their* issue. It's *them* that has
responsibility for that. Forget 'em. It's not about deciding fault.
Any idiot can see they're abusive. It's about deciding how much power
to give their behaviour.

Cele

[Tiffany]

Cele > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:53:10 GMT, > wrote:
>
> >Tiffany wrote:
> >
> >> Why is one need to be worse then the other?
> >
> >YOU are the one who just said that what I was doing was worse.
> >
> >> Why does there have to be fault?
> >
> >Again, YOU blamed ME, as usual.
> >
> > I didn't say you abuse Paul, but again, you are only reading
> >> what you want.
> >
> >Yes you did. You said I name called by pointing out that he is a woman
> >abuser, and you equated that to him calling me a bitch, which I of course
> >think is not the same thing.
> >
> > Why not answer my question on why you let this become
> >> abuse?
> >
> >It's not within my control to let it become anything, it is HIS
> >responsibility and HIS intention to make it so.
>
> I could be wrong, and I'm sure Tiffany will correct me if I am, but I
> think she may be making a point about giving the comments power rather
> than, exactly, letting them become abuse.
>
> I've made myself extremely clear on this issue in the past, so I won't
> bore everyone with a repeat. My position is expressed here, if anyone
> cares:
>
http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=Paul+%22moral+wrong%22+group:alt.support. si
ngle-parents&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=uc8a6v4g11csnb09ea6iiv4lkqbaoh1an9%404a
x.com&rnum=1
>
> However much Paul et.al. have complete control of and responsibility
> for their behaviour, Lorian, you have control of how much power you
> assign them. Are their remarks worth giving them any power at all? Not
> allowing them power means not allowing them the privilege of hurting
> you.
>
> If you see what I mean. :-/
>
> Take care.
>
> Cele
>
> >
> >Would you say that about the positive posts on here? No? Then why would
you
> >say it about the negative ones?
>
> The positive posts come from another place, and are worthy of
> consideration. As are some that also come from the spirit of support
> or assistance, but that are hard to hear.
>
> But the bullying isn't worth giving power to. Not just with you, in
> this situation. In general, with everyone. Bullying is low and foul.
> Why afford it any power or dignity at all?
>
> Cele

Thats about right. Thank you Cele, as I am tired of trying to explain this.

[Tiffany]

Cele > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:56:44 GMT, > wrote:
>
> >Tiffany wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >> news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> >>> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> >>>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> >>>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> >>>> these days!!!!
> >>>>
> >>>> Lisa
> >>>
> >>> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive to me on here
> >>> as always and I won't put up with it from you either. And I was
> >>> able to resolve things with Betsy as I apologized for my sarcasm and
> >>> she did get through to me in email. Because she did truly care for
> >>> me and my son's best interests. You never have. You have always
> >>> been catty and superior and very hurtful to me and I will not allow
> >>> you to continue to do that to me here.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> L, you need to let go of this 'being abused online' stuff. No one can
> >> hurt you unless you let them, online. Don't read their posts for god
> >> sake.
> >
> >Hey, don't take the responsibility off of Lisa and put it on me Tiffany.
> >Lisa has a very long history of being cruel to me in her posts to me.
She
> >doesn't need to waste bandwidth targeting me when I am at my most
vulnerable
> >with hurtful remarks but she does it all the time. There is no
difference
> >between if she said it to me online or in the mail or on the telephone or
to
> >my face, words hurt. Get in her face, not mine.
> >
> Tiffany really seems to be trying to help. It's not your job to cure
> them of abusive behaviour. That's *their* job. I think Tiffany's point
> might be along the lines of letting go of it for *your* sake. Who
> cares whether they deal with their issues? You don't have to fix them.
> And abusive behaviour is *their* issue. It's *them* that has
> responsibility for that. Forget 'em. It's not about deciding fault.
> Any idiot can see they're abusive. It's about deciding how much power
> to give their behaviour.
>
> Cele

Again, yes.

[Karen O'Mara]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message >...
> Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't control
> what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There is no one to be
> at fault here. You have name called also though, maybe not using b---- but
> you called Paul a women abuser which is pretty harsh. More so then being a
> bitch as most women confess to being a bitch. You are dealing with alot
> right now.... why make it worse by dealing with negative posts?

Negative *anything* avoid like the plague now, Lorian. Goodness
gracious, you want to pop a vein or something?

Think, feel, live positive. Surround yourself with positivity. Some
stuff you can't avoid, I know.

Karen

Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> Rolly The Pervert wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> news:hvARa.83747$H17.25802@sccrnsc02...
>>>
>>>
>>> "This is part of the result of living with mood swings,
>>> dissociation, the fog
>>> of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress
>>> disorder. And it is the result of simply not knowing how to set
>>> limits and normal consequences when all you've ever lived in is a
>>> war zone."
>>
>>> Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems
>>> would **** up about any kid?
>>
>> Kind of like how your kid must react to living around you, drug
>> addict with abusive parents who blames it all on his litle girl's
>> mother for her use of drugs when he himself uses drugs? How is your
>> daughter coping with the violence in your home, Tom? In other
>> words, judge not lest you be judged.

> Actually, it's my son, there's no violence. I don't do drugs, but
> this is your style Lorian, go off half cocked about **** you know
> nothing about.
>
> heh, delusions noted though

I remember the violence in your home and so does google. And you talked
about your drug use right here on this newsgroup so stop lying. And it is
obvious that you have not completed your recovery or you wouldn't need to be
so vicious to me or other women on this newsgroup, such as the woman you
called a man hater. Get a grip Tom. If you have stopped using, that is
great, but attacking me with your words is not working a good program and
you know that.

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:VZZSa.103226$GL4.27459@rwcrnsc53...
> Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> >>> > wrote in message
> >>> news:hvARa.83747$H17.25802@sccrnsc02...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "This is part of the result of living with mood swings,
> >>> dissociation, the fog
> >>> of anti-depressants and the "shock" of post-traumatic stress
> >>> disorder. And it is the result of simply not knowing how to set
> >>> limits and normal consequences when all you've ever lived in is a
> >>> war zone."
> >>
> >>> Don't you think living around and with someone with these problems
> >>> would **** up about any kid?
> >>
> >> Kind of like how your kid must react to living around you, drug
> >> addict with abusive parents who blames it all on his litle girl's
> >> mother for her use of drugs when he himself uses drugs? How is your
> >> daughter coping with the violence in your home, Tom? In other
> >> words, judge not lest you be judged.
>
> > Actually, it's my son, there's no violence. I don't do drugs, but
> > this is your style Lorian, go off half cocked about **** you know
> > nothing about.
> >
> > heh, delusions noted though
>
> I remember the violence in your home and so does google. And you talked
> about your drug use right here on this newsgroup so stop lying. And it is
> obvious that you have not completed your recovery or you wouldn't need to
be
> so vicious to me or other women on this newsgroup, such as the woman you
> called a man hater. Get a grip Tom. If you have stopped using, that is
> great, but attacking me with your words is not working a good program and
> you know that.
>
My son ( not daughter you gimp ) doesn't live in violence.

****, you're getting whats comming to you this time
>

Rolly The Pervert wrote:

> She's now claiming I abuse my kids physicaly.

where did I claim this?

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:ME_Sa.103368$GL4.27241@rwcrnsc53...

shut up abuser

[Betsy]

In news:ME_Sa.103368$GL4.27241@rwcrnsc53,
> typed:
> Karen O'Mara wrote:
>> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
>> >...
>>> Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't
>>> control what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There
>>> is no one to be at fault here. You have name called also though,
>>> maybe not using b---- but you called Paul a women abuser which is
>>> pretty harsh. More so then being a bitch as most women confess to
>>> being a bitch. You are dealing with alot right now.... why make it
>>> worse by dealing with negative posts?
>>
>> Negative *anything* avoid like the plague now, Lorian. Goodness
>> gracious, you want to pop a vein or something?
>>
>> Think, feel, live positive. Surround yourself with positivity. Some
>> stuff you can't avoid, I know.
>>
>> Karen
>
> yeah, I know, I should have known that although these newsgroup
> regulars are my longtime friends, I forgot how they cosign the
> bull**** of men who choose to attack me when I am down. How could I
> forget? And yes you ignore trolls but you do NOT ignore threats to
> your real life nor do I allow people to call me names and go
> unchallenged not in real life and not online. That would be stupid
> to not defend myself and people who have not been abused don't
> understand that so I will not accept condemnation from them. They
> are just cowards who would rather blame the victim than stand up to
> the bully.
>
> Whenever you disagree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That
> way, if they get mad, you are a mile away and you have their shoes.

Okay, I HAVE been abused. I have to say that I agree with what these folks
are saying to the extent of ignoring it. As my mother once had a T-shirt
that said, "Don't let the *******s get you down." YOU have the power to not
read the posts. If you allow yourself to be hurt by petty name calling, you
are allowing yourself to be a victim. You can not be victimized if you will
not allow it. I have been called cold hearted, and a bitch more often than
I can count; mostly by people who meet the profile of an abuser. Mainly
because I stand up for myself. They don't like it if they can't hurt you.
If it hurts your feelings, don't let them see it. It took me awhile, but I
got there. You can too. It's likely more difficult for you because of the
extent of abuse, and the mental illness, but it is not impossible. You may
think I am attacking you, or assigning the blame to you, but actually this
is an attempt at empowerment. I will probably be criticized for it. I
don't really care. If you hear the meaning in my words, fine. If not, I
can do nothing more. Good Luck.

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Betsy" > wrote in message
m...

she labbeled me an abuser years ago for telling her just that.

hahaha

[Paul Fritz]

Damn it...............

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > Tiffany wrote:
> > >
> > > > Why is one need to be worse then the other?
> > >
> > > YOU are the one who just said that what I was doing was worse.
> >
> > Where did I say that?
> >
> >
> > >
> > > > Why does there have to be fault?
> > >
> > > Again, YOU blamed ME, as usual.
> >
> > No I didn't blame you but I will now. If you allow someone to hurt you
> > continously, its your fault.
> >
> > The end.
> >
>
> It's not her fault, Tiff, it's her form of masturbation I think.

I have to clean the screen again..............lmao

>
> Surf
>

[Betsy]

In ,
Paul Fritz > typed:
> "Betsy" > wrote in message
> m...
>> In news:ME_Sa.103368$GL4.27241@rwcrnsc53,
>> > typed:
>>> Karen O'Mara wrote:
>>>> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
>>>> >...
>>>>> Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't
>>>>> control what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to.
>>>>> There is no one to be at fault here. You have name called also
>>>>> though, maybe not using b---- but you called Paul a women abuser
>>>>> which is pretty harsh. More so then being a bitch as most women
>>>>> confess to being a bitch. You are dealing with alot right now....
>>>>> why make it worse by dealing with negative posts?
>>>>
>>>> Negative *anything* avoid like the plague now, Lorian. Goodness
>>>> gracious, you want to pop a vein or something?
>>>>
>>>> Think, feel, live positive. Surround yourself with positivity. Some
>>>> stuff you can't avoid, I know.
>>>>
>>>> Karen
>>>
>>> yeah, I know, I should have known that although these newsgroup
>>> regulars are my longtime friends, I forgot how they cosign the
>>> bull**** of men who choose to attack me when I am down. How could I
>>> forget? And yes you ignore trolls but you do NOT ignore threats to
>>> your real life nor do I allow people to call me names and go
>>> unchallenged not in real life and not online. That would be stupid
>>> to not defend myself and people who have not been abused don't
>>> understand that so I will not accept condemnation from them. They
>>> are just cowards who would rather blame the victim than stand up to
>>> the bully.
>>>
>>> Whenever you disagree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes.
>>> That way, if they get mad, you are a mile away and you have their
>>> shoes.
>>
>> Okay, I HAVE been abused. I have to say that I agree with what
>> these folks are saying to the extent of ignoring it. As my mother
>> once had a T-shirt that said, "Don't let the *******s get you down."
>> YOU have the power to not read the posts. If you allow yourself to
>> be hurt by petty name calling, you are allowing yourself to be a
>> victim. You can not be victimized if you will not allow it.
>
> Being a victim is how looney validates her pathetic existence. Being
> a victim allows her to avoid the responsibilites of day to day life.
> Being a victim allows her to place blame everywhere except where it
> is deserved.
>
>

I suppose I shall discover in time, if this is going to continue. One never
knows when another may begin the change needed. I have done what I can, and
will let time tell the rest. I have learned, the hard way, not to invest
too much of myself 'saving' other people. I share my story(ies) and what
worked for me. Where I am now, is miles from where I was 12 years ago. It
took 12 years to get here, but I am here. I can only act as a guide to
those willing to accept guidance. No more need be said. Or rather, I will
say no more.

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.
>
>
>> I have been called cold hearted, and a bitch more often than
>> I can count; mostly by people who meet the profile of an abuser.
>> Mainly because I stand up for myself. They don't like it if they
>> can't hurt you. If it hurts your feelings, don't let them see it.
>> It took me awhile, but I got there. You can too. It's likely more
>> difficult for you because of the extent of abuse, and the mental
>> illness, but it is not impossible. You may think I am attacking
>> you, or assigning the blame to you, but actually this is an attempt
>> at empowerment. I will probably be criticized for it. I don't
>> really care. If you hear the meaning in my words, fine. If not, I
>> can do nothing more. Good Luck.
>>
>> Betsy
>> --
>> Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good
>> with ketchup.

[Betsy]

In ,
Rolly The Pervert > typed:
> "Betsy" > wrote in message
> m...
>
> she labbeled me an abuser years ago for telling her just that.
>
> hahaha

You laughing at me or her?

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Betsy" > wrote in message
m...
> In ,
> Rolly The Pervert > typed:
> > "Betsy" > wrote in message
> > m...
> >
> > she labbeled me an abuser years ago for telling her just that.
> >
> > hahaha
>
> You laughing at me or her?
>
> Betsy


situation

repetition humours me

[CME]

> wrote in message
. net...
> Tiffany wrote:
>
> > Why is one need to be worse then the other?
>
> YOU are the one who just said that what I was doing was worse.
>
> > Why does there have to be fault?
>
> Again, YOU blamed ME, as usual.
>
> I didn't say you abuse Paul, but again, you are only reading
> > what you want.
>
> Yes you did. You said I name called by pointing out that he is a woman
> abuser, and you equated that to him calling me a bitch, which I of course
> think is not the same thing.
>
> Why not answer my question on why you let this become
> > abuse?
>
> It's not within my control to let it become anything, it is HIS
> responsibility and HIS intention to make it so. It is HIS campaign of
> hatred targeted at me and his fixation on me which is clear by his
specific
> name calling of me "Looney Lorain" and how he has dug up peterd's old name
> calling of me "maroon" to continue that legacy of hate and how he uses my
> women's studies education against me and my feminist ideals against me,
> anything pertaining to anything womanly about me in particular not to the
> other women on this newsgroup but only on me. That is abuse.
>

Look, Lorian... you are letting his words have power. Ignore him. What you
are doing though, is making what he says have value to you. Look at it this
way, if he did to ME what he does to you, I'd tell him to **** off, tell him
he's a quack and leave it at that. If he continued to be abusive, I'd
ignore him because NOTHING I CAN DO WILL CHANGE WHAT HE DOES... only I can
change my reaction to him. So please, for yourself, and others who post
here, don't give him that power.


> Why do you read posts or take it to heart when you don't even
> > know these people?
>
> Would you say that about the positive posts on here? No? Then why would
you
> say it about the negative ones?
>

Good point, but only you can chose what has value here...

Christine

[CME]

> wrote in message news:ME_Sa.103368$GL4.27241@rwcrnsc53...
> Karen O'Mara wrote:
> > "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> > >...
> >> Err... here we go again. To me, no name calling is ok but I can't
> >> control what Roy types or what Paul types nor would I want to. There
> >> is no one to be at fault here. You have name called also though,
> >> maybe not using b---- but you called Paul a women abuser which is
> >> pretty harsh. More so then being a bitch as most women confess to
> >> being a bitch. You are dealing with alot right now.... why make it
> >> worse by dealing with negative posts?
> >
> > Negative *anything* avoid like the plague now, Lorian. Goodness
> > gracious, you want to pop a vein or something?
> >
> > Think, feel, live positive. Surround yourself with positivity. Some
> > stuff you can't avoid, I know.
> >
> > Karen
>
> yeah, I know, I should have known that although these newsgroup regulars
are
> my longtime friends, I forgot how they cosign the bull**** of men who
choose
> to attack me when I am down. How could I forget?

Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm not going to
repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try and change what they
think or post. I've said my peice about Paul et al. and their attack on
you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just because I chose to now ignore
the onslaught, does not mean I support them. I'm sorry Lorian, but you're
being foolish by thinking you can.

And yes you ignore trolls
> but you do NOT ignore threats to your real life nor do I allow people to
> call me names and go unchallenged not in real life and not online. That
> would be stupid to not defend myself and people who have not been abused
> don't understand that so I will not accept condemnation from them. They
are
> just cowards who would rather blame the victim than stand up to the bully.
>
> Whenever you disagree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way,
> if they get mad, you are a mile away and you have their shoes.
>

Again... Excuse me? Just about every woman I know has been abused one way
or the other. How YOU chose to handle that abuse is YOUR business, but do
not assume I lack the comprehension.

Secondly, I think it's poor judgement to succumb to such negativity,
especially at such a stressful time in your life, so ignore them for God's
sake.

Christine

[CME]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
news:GHISa.96500$GL4.27021@rwcrnsc53...
> > Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > > > wrote in message
> > > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> > >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear from
> > >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> > >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> > >>> these days!!!!
> > >>>
> > >>> Lisa
> > >>
> > >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
> > >
> > > And what you gonna do about it?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > **** off bitch
> >
> > So, calling me a bitch is ok with the group? It's my fault for failing
to
> > ignore him? Tell me why it isn't his fault.
> >
> >
>
> You are a bitch, and a lying netk00k kunt.
>
> More then that, your a lonney maroon. Go take your meds looney lorain.
>

Wow, what depth and maturity. Talk about kicking someone while their
down... you're quite the big man.

Christine

[Cancerous Chronic]

"CME" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> news:GHISa.96500$GL4.27021@rwcrnsc53...
> > > Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> > > >> Lisa aka Surfer wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Well done, Tom. You have a bigger heart than I, it was clear
from
> > > >>> the very first reply from Betsy that she wasn't going to get the
> > > >>> point. Yet you still took the time. Man oh man you're doing well
> > > >>> these days!!!!
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Lisa
> > > >>
> > > >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
> > > >
> > > > And what you gonna do about it?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > **** off bitch
> > >
> > > So, calling me a bitch is ok with the group? It's my fault for
failing
> to
> > > ignore him? Tell me why it isn't his fault.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > You are a bitch, and a lying netk00k kunt.
> >
> > More then that, your a lonney maroon. Go take your meds looney lorain.
> >
>
> Wow, what depth and maturity. Talk about kicking someone while their
> down... you're quite the big man.
>
> Christine
>

Go **** yourself Christine, hypocrite.
>

[Rolly The Pervert]

"CME" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> news:QPISa.96297$OZ2.20417@rwcrnsc54...
> > > Rolly The Pervert wrote:
> > > > wrote in message
> > news:KDDSa.107753$N7.14512@sccrnsc03...
> > > >> Actually, Lisa, you and Tom are as emotionally abusive<slap>
> > > >
> > > > And what you gonna do about it?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > **** off bitch
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > >
> > > you are simply proving my point as what you just did is emotional
abuse!
> >
> > Shut up bitch.
> > >
> > > I thought you were in recovery?
> >
> > hahahahaha bitch.
> > >
> > > And every techie knows that databasix is the last resort of the coward
> >
> > No bitch, meow, YHBT.
> >
> > You ain;t a techie either ****or, just cause you got a free email addy
> lol.
> >
> > Take credit for anyone elses work lately fraud?
> >
> > > usenet poster who needs to hide behind a terms of service agreement
that
> > > allows for anything goes. Better watch it though, there are still
laws
> to
> > > follow...
> >
> > hahaha, hahahaha looney lorian, you just bought off more then you can
> chew.
> > again.
> >
> > Cal the cops bitch. Email databasix ****. Your just ****ed you can't
> > netkkkop me.
> >
> > Looney Lorain, your new friends will turn on you to, just like your old
> ones
> > did, cause you are a backstabbing ****, whos ****ing up their kids life.
> >
> > Shame on you ****.
> >
>
> LOL, I'm sorry... I just find this so amusing, who's the one here that has
> the mental illness? Lorian has expressed herself in such a logical and
> coherent manner... you on the otherhand, resort to base and childish
> insults. You're a full blown cracker. Oh what, gonna call me a **** now
> too? LMAO
>
> Christine
>
>
hey look it's lady christine, coming to the invalids aid.


co-dependants and dumb **** enablers alike.

[CME]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:55:57 GMT, "CME" >
> wrote:
>
> >Yeah, mine was probably when I left home and realized how bloody naive I
> >was. The only thing that kept me alive was that I had brains, and I
learned
> >fast. I even remember spending a cold, hungry night outside walking the
> >piers of Victoria because I had no where else to go. What a rough
> >awakening. But my truly defining moment didn't come until later, when I
> >became pregnant. I knew I was responsible for someone other than myself,
> >and I needed to get my **** together. I'm proud that I've made it.
>
> Hey, did you grow up in Victoria??? When did you leave? I went to Vic
> High.....
>
> I wonder if we know each other? Or do I vaguely remember that you're
> younger than I am?
>
> Cele

I'm 27, and I didn't leave Edmonton, for Victoria until 1994. I lived a few
months in Vancouver as well... boy do I miss the ocean. Perhaps after
Graduate school, I'll look for work out there. I find I can't tolerate the
winters here anymore, they're too long.

Christine

[Cele]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 02:25:34 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

>
>"Cele" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 18:55:57 GMT, "CME" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Yeah, mine was probably when I left home and realized how bloody naive I
>> >was. The only thing that kept me alive was that I had brains, and I
>learned
>> >fast. I even remember spending a cold, hungry night outside walking the
>> >piers of Victoria because I had no where else to go. What a rough
>> >awakening. But my truly defining moment didn't come until later, when I
>> >became pregnant. I knew I was responsible for someone other than myself,
>> >and I needed to get my **** together. I'm proud that I've made it.
>>
>> Hey, did you grow up in Victoria??? When did you leave? I went to Vic
>> High.....
>>
>> I wonder if we know each other? Or do I vaguely remember that you're
>> younger than I am?
>>
>> Cele
>
>I'm 27, and I didn't leave Edmonton, for Victoria until 1994. I lived a few
>months in Vancouver as well... boy do I miss the ocean. Perhaps after
>Graduate school, I'll look for work out there. I find I can't tolerate the
>winters here anymore, they're too long.

Oh, okay, I'm 44, so that means I left a long time before you got
there. I graduated from Vic High in '75 and left then to go to UBC.
Haven't ever lived there since, although I did do 7 years in Nanaimo
and 1 in Port Alberni.

I miss the ocean too. I live a couple of hours from it now and would
love to be able to go to it more easily. When I was a kid and I was
stressed out I used to go storm around the beach at Dallas Road. I
lived about half a block from Clover Point. If I was having a *really*
bad day I'd go all along the beach and then look at tombstones in the
cemetary at Ross Bay. Always felt better after that. Sort of freed up
my head to think. LOL

Anyway, I hear ya about the winters. These here in the Fraser Valley
are really short and wet. But I'm homesick for Whitehorse anyway. I
wish I could go back sometimes. And I miss my daughter who's there.

Oh well.

If you come this way you'll have to let me know so we can get
together. :-)

Cele

[Cele]

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:48:59 -0500, 'Kate >
wrote:

>>>Worse than a vulture pickin' on carrion.
>>
>>Glad to see you back, Kate. I hope you are doing as well as possible.
>>I think of you.
>>
>>And oh, btw, this was beautifully expressed. :-)
>>
>>Cele
>
>And I'm still wondering if I spelled carrion correctly. :-\.

Heh. You got it right....spelling and similie both. :-)

>We're doing ok. I'm very good at denial. LOL

Sometimes it pays to be. But not for longer than necessary. I'm glad
it's workin' for ya. I think of you often. I'll watch for you on
Trillian, now that the LAN is up and running and thoroughly rebuilt.

>Thinking of you too... when ya moving? <g>

Heh. Still here. Can't move, even if I wanted to. I paid a tax
professional to do my taxes for lo these many years, and Revenue
Canada has decided they were done wrong two years ago and I'm in debt
to them for forty five hundred. Yeah, right. They want to garnishee my
wages. Luckily I'm technically unemployed right now. I'm going to try
to negotiate a payback schedule, I guess. What else can I do? But I'm
****ed as far as the huge return I was previously expecting is
concerned. Too bad there's no tax deduction for massive financial hits
due to doiing the right thing by your kid, huh? Ah well. [wry smile]

I'm thinking of you, Kate. Take good care of you and yours.

Cele

CME wrote:

> Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm not
> going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try and
> change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul et al.
> and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just
> because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I support
> them.

Then my words don't apply to you.

> I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you can.

But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound when they
call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it wouldn't be right
to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did that, thank
you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take their side
and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.

Betsy wrote:

> Okay, I HAVE been abused. I have to say that I agree with what these
> folks are saying to the extent of ignoring it. As my mother once had
> a T-shirt that said, "Don't let the *******s get you down." YOU have
> the power to not read the posts.

You are not listening to me when I say that I feel a deep need to not turn
my back on dangerous people like Tom who has threatened to take his
harassment of me offline and has in fact done so twice and he knows my real
name and location so he has the power to carry through. You people aren't
going to defend me so obviously I have to defend myself. Gee, I'm so busy
worrying about him now I've forgotten all about my son.

If you allow yourself to be hurt by
> petty name calling, you are allowing yourself to be a victim.

Petty name calling? ****, bitch, these are petty name calling? No, these
are gender specific slurs, he most definitely singles out women for his hate
as he has a really twisted woman hating issues. Feeling pain when men
attack me is not my fault, duh. Tom and Paul are quite capable of choosing
who they attack and they are quite capable of stopping their behavior, it is
their responsibility, not mine.


You
> can not be victimized if you will not allow it.

Lack of control over being hurt is the very definition of victim. Why am I
the only one who seems to get this? If you don't want to stand up to Tom
and Paul that is your prerogative but don't give me this highly developed
argument about how it is all my fault that they are making fun of my mental
illness and of my feminist ideals and of my gender because I refuse to
ignore them.

I have been called
> cold hearted, and a bitch more often than I can count; mostly by
> people who meet the profile of an abuser. Mainly because I stand up
> for myself.

um, I stand up for myself too...

They don't like it if they can't hurt you. If it hurts
> your feelings, don't let them see it. It took me awhile, but I got
> there. You can too. It's likely more difficult for you because of
> the extent of abuse, and the mental illness, but it is not
> impossible. You may think I am attacking you, or assigning the blame
> to you, but actually this is an attempt at empowerment. I will
> probably be criticized for it. I don't really care. If you hear the
> meaning in my words, fine. If not, I can do nothing more. Good
> Luck.
>
> Betsy

I can see that you are trying to help me and I take your advice in the
spirit with which it is intended but when I am told to ignore the abuser and
that it is my fault they are abusing me what I hear is "shut up and take the
abuse like a good girl" and it just makes me want to point and scream. See?

Cele wrote:
> I don't think you can expect much from 'the system'.

What? Oh, Nooooo!

I'm screwed. LOL.

Whatever's gone wrong before is over, it's written, it's
> done. You can't affect it. Walk away from it. Work on the now. It's
> all you can do. For him and for yourself.
>
> And be well.

What is it with people who can not see that history repeats itself unless
you actively seek to stop the cycles? I've been in therapy so much that it
is just so clear to me that my son saw me be abused as a child so that is
what was role modeled for him and now he is acting that out as he becomes a
man. Also, he is reacting to me as I only know how to live with a man from
a victim's stand point, I have lots of male friends that I keep at a
distance but living with one is a different story. You can't just "let it
go" or "forget about it" or "put it in the past" abuse isn't like that.
History isn't like that. Time isn't like that. If only it were that
simple. But it isn't, it is very convoluted. The rest of your post was
right on, depressing though, as I was really hoping "the system" was going
to save us. damn.

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message
. net...
> I've been in therapy so much that it <slap>

is ridiculously funny to read you trying to reason with folks, and blackmail
then into supporting you.

And your right lorain, you are gonna pay.

And watch that reply button.

hahahah

show me your tits looney lorain

[Lisa aka Surfer]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
> Damn it...............

>
> I have to clean the screen again..............lmao
>
> >
> >

sorry

hehehe

[Lisa aka Surfer]

> wrote in message
. net...
> Cele wrote:
> > I don't think you can expect much from 'the system'.
>
> What? Oh, Nooooo!
>
> I'm screwed. LOL.
>
> Whatever's gone wrong before is over, it's written, it's
> > done. You can't affect it. Walk away from it. Work on the now. It's
> > all you can do. For him and for yourself.
> >
> > And be well.
>
> What is it with people who can not see that history repeats itself unless
> you actively seek to stop the cycles? I've been in therapy so much that
it
> is just so clear to me that my son saw me be abused as a child so that is
> what was role modeled for him and now he is acting that out as he becomes
a
> man. Also, he is reacting to me as I only know how to live with a man
from
> a victim's stand point, I have lots of male friends that I keep at a
> distance but living with one is a different story. You can't just "let it
> go" or "forget about it" or "put it in the past" abuse isn't like that.
> History isn't like that. Time isn't like that. If only it were that
> simple. But it isn't, it is very convoluted. The rest of your post was
> right on, depressing though, as I was really hoping "the system" was going
> to save us. damn.
>
>

Lorian,,,,,try re-reading Cele's post. My thought was,,,,if ever there was
a post this girl needs to keep it's this one.

You really really need to move along to doing something proactive to make
things right in your family's life. What other people know, understand,
think means **** all. It's perception. Stop wallowing and start parenting
your kid before he finds himself in more trouble than stealing your car and
quitting school.

No one is going to do it for you.

Lisa

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > Cele wrote:
> > > > > I don't think you can expect much from 'the system'.
> > > >
> > > > What? Oh, Nooooo!
> > > >
> > > > I'm screwed. LOL.
> > > >
> > > > Whatever's gone wrong before is over, it's written, it's
> > > > > done. You can't affect it. Walk away from it. Work on the now.
It's
> > > > > all you can do. For him and for yourself.
> > > > >
> > > > > And be well.
> > > >
> > > > What is it with people who can not see that history repeats itself
> > unless
> > > > you actively seek to stop the cycles? I've been in therapy so much
> that
> > > it
> > > > is just so clear to me that my son saw me be abused as a child so
that
> > is
> > > > what was role modeled for him and now he is acting that out as he
> > becomes
> > > a
> > > > man. Also, he is reacting to me as I only know how to live with a
man
> > > from
> > > > a victim's stand point, I have lots of male friends that I keep at a
> > > > distance but living with one is a different story. You can't just
> "let
> > it
> > > > go" or "forget about it" or "put it in the past" abuse isn't like
> that.
> > > > History isn't like that. Time isn't like that. If only it were
that
> > > > simple. But it isn't, it is very convoluted. The rest of your post
> was
> > > > right on, depressing though, as I was really hoping "the system" was
> > going
> > > > to save us. damn.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Lorian,,,,,try re-reading Cele's post. My thought was,,,,if ever
there
> > was
> > > a post this girl needs to keep it's this one.
> > >
> > > You really really need to move along to doing something proactive to
> make
> > > things right in your family's life. What other people know,
understand,
> > > think means **** all. It's perception. Stop wallowing and start
> > parenting
> > > your kid before he finds himself in more trouble than stealing your
car
> > and
> > > quitting school.
> > >
> > > No one is going to do it for you.
> >
> > The problem is that the 'therapy' has obviously been an enabling tool
for
> > her as well.
> > It is absolute BS that the witnessed 'abuse' is the cause. rather it
is
> > living in a misandrist household with a nutcase for a mother. The kid
is
> > trying to escape, through drugs, booze, and whatever.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Lisa
> > >
> >
> Talk talk talk. My father is of the old school that talk therapy is the
key
> to managing mental illness. From my perspective the only way it does any
> good is with someone that will simply tell you....."face it, this is how
it
> is"
>
> This young lad is 16,,,if anything is to change it better be now,
otherwise
> he's going to be in for a some crappy years. Lorian is enabling him now.
> Hmmmmm, now here's a thought.....Is failing to parent your child abusive?
>
> Lisa
>

Yes.

She's creating a male version of herself, except this kid will end up hating
everyone, not just men.

Somehow, she thinks the current abuse she lays on her kid is magic and comes
from no where

[CME]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> . net...
> > CME wrote:
> >
> > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm not
> > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try and
> > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul et al.
> > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just
> > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I support
> > > them.
> >
> > Then my words don't apply to you.
> >
> > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you can.
> >
> > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound when
they
> > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it wouldn't be
> right
> > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did that,
thank
> > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take their
side
> > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> >
> >
>
> Hahahah
>
> Do this or you can't be my friend.
>
> Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable your looney
> marooness and people who don't
>
> And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before me
****or,
> i read your other lies.
>
> You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're sweating it
> right now aren't you.
>
> yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> >

Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now where she
gets the idea that you're an abuser.

Christine

[Rolly The Pervert]

"CME" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > CME wrote:
> > >
> > > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm not
> > > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try and
> > > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul et
al.
> > > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just
> > > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I support
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > Then my words don't apply to you.
> > >
> > > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you can.
> > >
> > > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound when
> they
> > > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it wouldn't be
> > right
> > > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did that,
> thank
> > > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take their
> side
> > > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Hahahah
> >
> > Do this or you can't be my friend.
> >
> > Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable your
looney
> > marooness and people who don't
> >
> > And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before me
> ****or,
> > i read your other lies.
> >
> > You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're sweating
it
> > right now aren't you.
> >
> > yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> > >
>
> Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now where she
> gets the idea that you're an abuser.
>
> Christine
>
>

show me your tits

[Paul Fritz]

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> . net...
> > Cele wrote:
> > > I don't think you can expect much from 'the system'.
> >
> > What? Oh, Nooooo!
> >
> > I'm screwed. LOL.
> >
> > Whatever's gone wrong before is over, it's written, it's
> > > done. You can't affect it. Walk away from it. Work on the now. It's
> > > all you can do. For him and for yourself.
> > >
> > > And be well.
> >
> > What is it with people who can not see that history repeats itself
unless
> > you actively seek to stop the cycles? I've been in therapy so much that
> it
> > is just so clear to me that my son saw me be abused as a child so that
is
> > what was role modeled for him and now he is acting that out as he
becomes
> a
> > man. Also, he is reacting to me as I only know how to live with a man
> from
> > a victim's stand point, I have lots of male friends that I keep at a
> > distance but living with one is a different story. You can't just "let
it
> > go" or "forget about it" or "put it in the past" abuse isn't like that.
> > History isn't like that. Time isn't like that. If only it were that
> > simple. But it isn't, it is very convoluted. The rest of your post was
> > right on, depressing though, as I was really hoping "the system" was
going
> > to save us. damn.
> >
> >
>
> Lorian,,,,,try re-reading Cele's post. My thought was,,,,if ever there
was
> a post this girl needs to keep it's this one.
>
> You really really need to move along to doing something proactive to make
> things right in your family's life. What other people know, understand,
> think means **** all. It's perception. Stop wallowing and start
parenting
> your kid before he finds himself in more trouble than stealing your car
and
> quitting school.
>
> No one is going to do it for you.

The problem is that the 'therapy' has obviously been an enabling tool for
her as well.
It is absolute BS that the witnessed 'abuse' is the cause. rather it is
living in a misandrist household with a nutcase for a mother. The kid is
trying to escape, through drugs, booze, and whatever.


>
> Lisa
>

[Lisa aka Surfer]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CME" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > CME wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm not
> > > > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try and
> > > > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul et
> al.
> > > > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just
> > > > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I
support
> > > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > Then my words don't apply to you.
> > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you can.
> > > >
> > > > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound when
> > they
> > > > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it wouldn't
be
> > > right
> > > > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did that,
> > thank
> > > > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take their
> > side
> > > > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hahahah
> > >
> > > Do this or you can't be my friend.
> > >
> > > Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable your
> looney
> > > marooness and people who don't
> > >
> > > And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before me
> > ****or,
> > > i read your other lies.
> > >
> > > You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're sweating
> it
> > > right now aren't you.
> > >
> > > yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> > > >
> >
> > Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now where
she
> > gets the idea that you're an abuser.
> >
> > Christine
> >
> >
>
> show me your tits
>
>

read the FAQ Tom,,,,pics aren't allowed

silly boy

Surf

[CME]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CME" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > wrote in message
> > > . net...
> > > > CME wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm not
> > > > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try and
> > > > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul et
> al.
> > > > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just
> > > > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I
support
> > > > > them.
> > > >
> > > > Then my words don't apply to you.
> > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you can.
> > > >
> > > > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound when
> > they
> > > > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it wouldn't
be
> > > right
> > > > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did that,
> > thank
> > > > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take their
> > side
> > > > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hahahah
> > >
> > > Do this or you can't be my friend.
> > >
> > > Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable your
> looney
> > > marooness and people who don't
> > >
> > > And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before me
> > ****or,
> > > i read your other lies.
> > >
> > > You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're sweating
> it
> > > right now aren't you.
> > >
> > > yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> > > >
> >
> > Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now where
she
> > gets the idea that you're an abuser.
> >
> > Christine
> >
> >
>
> show me your tits
>

Ohhh I see... so now I'm a target because I don't agree with you... ohhh who
would have thought?! lmao

Christine

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "CME" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > . net...
> > > > > CME wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm
not
> > > > > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try
and
> > > > > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul
et
> > al.
> > > > > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just
> > > > > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I
> support
> > > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then my words don't apply to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you can.
> > > > >
> > > > > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound
when
> > > they
> > > > > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it wouldn't
> be
> > > > right
> > > > > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did
that,
> > > thank
> > > > > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take
their
> > > side
> > > > > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hahahah
> > > >
> > > > Do this or you can't be my friend.
> > > >
> > > > Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable your
> > looney
> > > > marooness and people who don't
> > > >
> > > > And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before me
> > > ****or,
> > > > i read your other lies.
> > > >
> > > > You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're
sweating
> > it
> > > > right now aren't you.
> > > >
> > > > yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now where
> she
> > > gets the idea that you're an abuser.
> > >
> > > Christine
> > >
> > >
> >
> > show me your tits
> >
> >
>
> read the FAQ Tom,,,,pics aren't allowed
>
> silly boy
>
> Surf
>

Ooops.

I'll ask her to email m instead then

[Rolly The Pervert]

"CME" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "CME" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > . net...
> > > > > CME wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm
not
> > > > > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try
and
> > > > > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul
et
> > al.
> > > > > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do. Just
> > > > > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I
> support
> > > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > Then my words don't apply to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you can.
> > > > >
> > > > > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound
when
> > > they
> > > > > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it wouldn't
> be
> > > > right
> > > > > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did
that,
> > > thank
> > > > > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take
their
> > > side
> > > > > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hahahah
> > > >
> > > > Do this or you can't be my friend.
> > > >
> > > > Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable your
> > looney
> > > > marooness and people who don't
> > > >
> > > > And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before me
> > > ****or,
> > > > i read your other lies.
> > > >
> > > > You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're
sweating
> > it
> > > > right now aren't you.
> > > >
> > > > yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now where
> she
> > > gets the idea that you're an abuser.
> > >
> > > Christine
> > >
> > >
> >
> > show me your tits
> >
>
> Ohhh I see... so now I'm a target because I don't agree with you... ohhh
who
> would have thought?! lmao
>
> Christine
>
>

I reply to a post where you attack me, and i'm targeting you.,

Since lisa says no binaries here.

Email me pics of your tits please.

( is that better lisa? )

[Paul Fritz]

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>

> >
> Talk talk talk. My father is of the old school that talk therapy is the
key
> to managing mental illness. From my perspective the only way it does any
> good is with someone that will simply tell you....."face it, this is how
it
> is"
>
> This young lad is 16,,,if anything is to change it better be now,
otherwise
> he's going to be in for a some crappy years. Lorian is enabling him now.
> Hmmmmm, now here's a thought.....Is failing to parent your child abusive?
>
> Lisa
>

Exactly......life isn't always fare......you just have to deal with it.

[Karen O'Mara]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message >...
>
> Hahahah
>
> Do this or you can't be my friend.
>
> Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable your looney
> marooness and people who don't

Lorian's my friend. And, you aren't.

That is the last time I'll talk to you, too.

Karen

[CME]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CME" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "CME" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote in message
> > > > > . net...
> > > > > > CME wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm
> not
> > > > > > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try
> and
> > > > > > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul
> et
> > > al.
> > > > > > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do.
Just
> > > > > > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I
> > support
> > > > > > > them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then my words don't apply to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you
can.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound
> when
> > > > they
> > > > > > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it
wouldn't
> > be
> > > > > right
> > > > > > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did
> that,
> > > > thank
> > > > > > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take
> their
> > > > side
> > > > > > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hahahah
> > > > >
> > > > > Do this or you can't be my friend.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable
your
> > > looney
> > > > > marooness and people who don't
> > > > >
> > > > > And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before
me
> > > > ****or,
> > > > > i read your other lies.
> > > > >
> > > > > You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're
> sweating
> > > it
> > > > > right now aren't you.
> > > > >
> > > > > yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now
where
> > she
> > > > gets the idea that you're an abuser.
> > > >
> > > > Christine
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > show me your tits
> > >
> >
> > Ohhh I see... so now I'm a target because I don't agree with you... ohhh
> who
> > would have thought?! lmao
> >
> > Christine
> >
> >
>
> I reply to a post where you attack me, and i'm targeting you.,
>
> Since lisa says no binaries here.
>
> Email me pics of your tits please.
>
> ( is that better lisa? )
>

Nah, I don't think my BF would go for that... lol. My breasts are for
private consumption. ;)

Christine

[Lisa aka Surfer]

"Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CME" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "CME" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Rolly The Pervert" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > > wrote in message
> > > > > . net...
> > > > > > CME wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Excuse me? I do not put up with their so called bull****, I'm
> not
> > > > > > > going to repeat myself over and over... nor am I going to try
> and
> > > > > > > change what they think or post. I've said my peice about Paul
> et
> > > al.
> > > > > > > and their attack on you, and that is all I'm going to do.
Just
> > > > > > > because I chose to now ignore the onslaught, does not mean I
> > support
> > > > > > > them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Then my words don't apply to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm sorry Lorian, but you're being foolish by thinking you
can.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But you still need to say something about how stupid they sound
> when
> > > > they
> > > > > > call me disgusting names and pick on me when I'm down, it
wouldn't
> > be
> > > > > right
> > > > > > to just let them get by with going unchallenged. So, you did
> that,
> > > > thank
> > > > > > you. What I am objecting to is how others here choose to take
> their
> > > > side
> > > > > > and blame me instead, again, that does not apply to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hahahah
> > > > >
> > > > > Do this or you can't be my friend.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like I said, you have no friends here, just people who enable
your
> > > looney
> > > > > marooness and people who don't
> > > > >
> > > > > And listen up ****or, Peter called you looney maroon long before
me
> > > > ****or,
> > > > > i read your other lies.
> > > > >
> > > > > You ****ed up last night and you know exactly how, and you're
> sweating
> > > it
> > > > > right now aren't you.
> > > > >
> > > > > yes, I'm gonna nail you for it
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh and is supposed to be scared? Wow, what a bully. I see now
where
> > she
> > > > gets the idea that you're an abuser.
> > > >
> > > > Christine
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > show me your tits
> > >
> >
> > Ohhh I see... so now I'm a target because I don't agree with you... ohhh
> who
> > would have thought?! lmao
> >
> > Christine
> >
> >
>
> I reply to a post where you attack me, and i'm targeting you.,
>
> Since lisa says no binaries here.
>
> Email me pics of your tits please.
>
> ( is that better lisa? )
>
>

much thanks

oh, and while we're at it,,,,thanks for moving from using "c" to start that
4 letter word to "k"

I really hate that word

It's better when you spell it with a "k"

Surf

[Betsy]

In news:vR7Ta.107086$OZ2.19741@rwcrnsc54,
> typed:
> Betsy wrote:
>
>> Okay, I HAVE been abused. I have to say that I agree with what these
>> folks are saying to the extent of ignoring it. As my mother once had
>> a T-shirt that said, "Don't let the *******s get you down." YOU have
>> the power to not read the posts.
>
> You are not listening to me when I say that I feel a deep need to not
> turn my back on dangerous people like Tom who has threatened to take
> his harassment of me offline and has in fact done so twice and he
> knows my real name and location so he has the power to carry through.
> You people aren't going to defend me so obviously I have to defend
> myself. Gee, I'm so busy worrying about him now I've forgotten all
> about my son.
>
> If you allow yourself to be hurt by
>> petty name calling, you are allowing yourself to be a victim.
>
> Petty name calling? ****, bitch, these are petty name calling? No,
> these are gender specific slurs, he most definitely singles out women
> for his hate as he has a really twisted woman hating issues. Feeling
> pain when men attack me is not my fault, duh. Tom and Paul are quite
> capable of choosing who they attack and they are quite capable of
> stopping their behavior, it is their responsibility, not mine.
>
>
Except that he has called men names too. I have seen it. When he's being a
jerk, he doesn't just act out toward females. I disagree with the words he
uses, I think it's disgusting. I can choose to killfile him, then won't
read his posts. Maybe you could give it a try?

> You
>> can not be victimized if you will not allow it.
>
> Lack of control over being hurt is the very definition of victim.
> Why am I the only one who seems to get this? If you don't want to
> stand up to Tom and Paul that is your prerogative but don't give me
> this highly developed argument about how it is all my fault that they
> are making fun of my mental illness and of my feminist ideals and of
> my gender because I refuse to ignore them.
>
> I have been called
>> cold hearted, and a bitch more often than I can count; mostly by
>> people who meet the profile of an abuser. Mainly because I stand up
>> for myself.
>
> um, I stand up for myself too...
>
> They don't like it if they can't hurt you. If it hurts
>> your feelings, don't let them see it. It took me awhile, but I got
>> there. You can too. It's likely more difficult for you because of
>> the extent of abuse, and the mental illness, but it is not
>> impossible. You may think I am attacking you, or assigning the blame
>> to you, but actually this is an attempt at empowerment. I will
>> probably be criticized for it. I don't really care. If you hear the
>> meaning in my words, fine. If not, I can do nothing more. Good
>> Luck.
>>
>> Betsy
>
> I can see that you are trying to help me and I take your advice in the
> spirit with which it is intended but when I am told to ignore the
> abuser and that it is my fault they are abusing me what I hear is
> "shut up and take the abuse like a good girl" and it just makes me
> want to point and scream. See?

I never said it was your fault. You read that into it. Basically, however
you control your reaction to it. I don't think anything I say will make a
difference. You have your belief system. I hope it works for you. I was
sharing what works for me. Good Luck

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Betsy" > wrote in message
. com...
> In news:vR7Ta.107086$OZ2.19741@rwcrnsc54,
> > typed:
> > Betsy wrote:
> >
> >> Okay, I HAVE been abused. I have to say that I agree with what these
> >> folks are saying to the extent of ignoring it. As my mother once had
> >> a T-shirt that said, "Don't let the *******s get you down." YOU have
> >> the power to not read the posts.
> >
> > You are not listening to me when I say that I feel a deep need to not
> > turn my back on dangerous people like Tom who has threatened to take
> > his harassment of me offline and has in fact done so twice and he
> > knows my real name and location so he has the power to carry through.
> > You people aren't going to defend me so obviously I have to defend
> > myself. Gee, I'm so busy worrying about him now I've forgotten all
> > about my son.
> >
> > If you allow yourself to be hurt by
> >> petty name calling, you are allowing yourself to be a victim.
> >
> > Petty name calling? ****, bitch, these are petty name calling? No,
> > these are gender specific slurs, he most definitely singles out women
> > for his hate as he has a really twisted woman hating issues. Feeling
> > pain when men attack me is not my fault, duh. Tom and Paul are quite
> > capable of choosing who they attack and they are quite capable of
> > stopping their behavior, it is their responsibility, not mine.
> >
> >
> Except that he has called men names too. I have seen it. When he's being
a
> jerk, he doesn't just act out toward females. I disagree with the words
he
> uses, I think it's disgusting. I can choose to killfile him, then won't
> read his posts. Maybe you could give it a try?
>
> > You
> >> can not be victimized if you will not allow it.
> >
> > Lack of control over being hurt is the very definition of victim.
> > Why am I the only one who seems to get this? If you don't want to
> > stand up to Tom and Paul that is your prerogative but don't give me
> > this highly developed argument about how it is all my fault that they
> > are making fun of my mental illness and of my feminist ideals and of
> > my gender because I refuse to ignore them.
> >
> > I have been called
> >> cold hearted, and a bitch more often than I can count; mostly by
> >> people who meet the profile of an abuser. Mainly because I stand up
> >> for myself.
> >
> > um, I stand up for myself too...
> >
> > They don't like it if they can't hurt you. If it hurts
> >> your feelings, don't let them see it. It took me awhile, but I got
> >> there. You can too. It's likely more difficult for you because of
> >> the extent of abuse, and the mental illness, but it is not
> >> impossible. You may think I am attacking you, or assigning the blame
> >> to you, but actually this is an attempt at empowerment. I will
> >> probably be criticized for it. I don't really care. If you hear the
> >> meaning in my words, fine. If not, I can do nothing more. Good
> >> Luck.
> >>
> >> Betsy
> >
> > I can see that you are trying to help me and I take your advice in the
> > spirit with which it is intended but when I am told to ignore the
> > abuser and that it is my fault they are abusing me what I hear is
> > "shut up and take the abuse like a good girl" and it just makes me
> > want to point and scream. See?
>
> I never said it was your fault. You read that into it. Basically,
however
> you control your reaction to it. I don't think anything I say will make a
> difference. You have your belief system. I hope it works for you. I was
> sharing what works for me. Good Luck
>
> Betsy

despite everything else, I wish i was more like you
> --
> Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
> ketchup.
>
>

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Betsy" > wrote in message
. com...
> In ,
> Rolly The Pervert > typed:
> > "Betsy" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> In news:vR7Ta.107086$OZ2.19741@rwcrnsc54,
> >> > typed:
> <snip>
>
> >
> > despite everything else, I wish i was more like you
>
>
> I am not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing. I am not sure I want
to
> know what you mean by 'everything else.' I may have a different view of
> things, but I choose to give people the benefit of the doubt when
possible.
> Of course, that's gotten me burned on more than one occasion; and probably
> will again. Regardless of your wording in some posts, I feel you have
> something to offer single parents. Some day I may have a problem or a
> question you have a suggestion to. I choose to keep an open mind at this
> point. I hope collaboration is possible.
>
> Betsy

Just ment i apreciate your tolerence of folks

I'm usually pretty direct if i'm not being nice


> --
> Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
> ketchup.
>
>

[Betsy]

In ,
Rolly The Pervert > typed:
> "Betsy" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> In ,
>> Rolly The Pervert > typed:
>>> "Betsy" > wrote in message
>>> . com...
>>>> In news:vR7Ta.107086$OZ2.19741@rwcrnsc54,
>>>> > typed:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> despite everything else, I wish i was more like you
>>
>>
>> I am not sure if this is a good thing or bad thing. I am not sure I
>> want to know what you mean by 'everything else.' I may have a
>> different view of things, but I choose to give people the benefit of
>> the doubt when possible. Of course, that's gotten me burned on more
>> than one occasion; and probably will again. Regardless of your
>> wording in some posts, I feel you have something to offer single
>> parents. Some day I may have a problem or a question you have a
>> suggestion to. I choose to keep an open mind at this point. I hope
>> collaboration is possible.
>>
>> Betsy
>
> Just ment i apreciate your tolerence of folks
>
> I'm usually pretty direct if i'm not being nice
>
>
I kinda figured that was the case. :-)

--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

Betsy wrote:

>>> Okay, I HAVE been abused. I have to say that I agree with what
>>> these folks are saying to the extent of ignoring it. As my mother
>>> once had a T-shirt that said, "Don't let the *******s get you
>>> down." YOU have the power to not read the posts.

> I never said it was your fault. You read that into it.

oh. I guess that is what I am used to hearing from some of the longtime
regulars here. I just took a trip down memory lane on google.com (the
newsgroup archive that goes back years and years of everything we post
online) and I read with horror how most of the time that I have posted here
I have been ganged up on by some real jerks that used to post here who
pretty much were a "clique" and labeled me the dysfunctional group
scapegoat. It's a role I am used to as I was the family scapegoat, my
family was very abusive and I was the threat, I was the one who kept
pointing it out and I was the one who made my mom do something about it. No
wonder she hates me. So I have this thing about being told to keep quiet or
to ignore anything resembling abuse or injustice. Even though in most
cases ignoring is the most effective way to deal with bullying or "trolling"
behavior.

My YWCA advocate is funny. She said, "never wrestle with pigs. You get
dirty and the pigs like it."

> Basically,
> however you control your reaction to it.

The root of the serenity prayer. I get it.

I don't think anything I
> say will make a difference. You have your belief system. I hope it
> works for you. I was sharing what works for me. Good Luck
>
> Betsy

Thank you for your persistence with me. you are brave, LOL.

Laura wrote:

> Lorian, I'm sorry things have gotten to this point. Both you and your
> son are clearly suffering a great deal. I think it's a very good thing
> that you're working with the foster care system to find a stable home
> for him. That seems the best solution in the short term given your
> resources and his age. Some distance between you two will allow you
> both to get your equilibrium back and figure out what to do with the
> assistance of neutral counselors. I hope that you can spend some time
> tending to your own needs and he, separately, can be helped with the
> tremendous issues he must be facing. Peace to you both.
>
> lm

Hi Laura,

I haven't talked to you in so long, I wish it were under better
circumstances, thank you for your words of hope and peace.

Betsy wrote:
> I suppose I shall discover in time, if this is going to continue.
> One never knows when another may begin the change needed. I have
> done what I can, and will let time tell the rest. I have learned,
> the hard way, not to invest too much of myself 'saving' other
> people. I share my story(ies) and what worked for me. Where I am
> now, is miles from where I was 12 years ago. It took 12 years to get
> here, but I am here. I can only act as a guide to those willing to
> accept guidance. No more need be said. Or rather, I will say no
> more.

what are you talking to HIM for? I have already admitted to needing to
change, Paul is in denial and clearly abusive calling me looney lorain on
here all the time yet insisting that he is doing nothing wrong, don't talk
to him about how hard you have it convincing me that I need to change. That
ruins your credibility. Otherwise, I do take your words to heart and
appreciate your efforts to help me and my son, and I love your .sig lines,
they are funny.

Paul Fritz wrote:
> Being a victim is how looney validates her pathetic existence. Being
> a victim allows her to avoid the responsibilites of day to day life.
> Being a victim allows her to place blame everywhere except where it
> is deserved.

I am not a victim, I am a survivor.

You, however, are a predator and you sit here and make fun of my disability
day in and day out no matter who calls you on it because you have no
integrity and you just look foolish and childish and:

being an offender is how Paul validates his pathetic existence.
being an offender is how Paul allows himself to avoid the responsibilities
of day to day life.
being an offender allows Paul to place blame everywhere except where it is
deserved, squarely in his own head and in his own mouth and in his own hands
at his own keyboard.

[Betsy]

In news:Y0oTa.111678$OZ2.22151@rwcrnsc54,
> typed:
> Betsy wrote:
>
>>>> Okay, I HAVE been abused. I have to say that I agree with what
>>>> these folks are saying to the extent of ignoring it. As my mother
>>>> once had a T-shirt that said, "Don't let the *******s get you
>>>> down." YOU have the power to not read the posts.
>
>> I never said it was your fault. You read that into it.
>
> oh. I guess that is what I am used to hearing from some of the
> longtime regulars here. I just took a trip down memory lane on
> google.com (the newsgroup archive that goes back years and years of
> everything we post online) and I read with horror how most of the
> time that I have posted here I have been ganged up on by some real
> jerks that used to post here who pretty much were a "clique" and
> labeled me the dysfunctional group scapegoat. It's a role I am used
> to as I was the family scapegoat, my family was very abusive and I
> was the threat, I was the one who kept pointing it out and I was the
> one who made my mom do something about it. No wonder she hates me.
> So I have this thing about being told to keep quiet or to ignore
> anything resembling abuse or injustice. Even though in most cases
> ignoring is the most effective way to deal with bullying or
> "trolling" behavior.
>
> My YWCA advocate is funny. She said, "never wrestle with pigs. You
> get dirty and the pigs like it."
>
>> Basically,
>> however you control your reaction to it.
>
> The root of the serenity prayer. I get it.
>
> I don't think anything I
>> say will make a difference. You have your belief system. I hope it
>> works for you. I was sharing what works for me. Good Luck
>>
>> Betsy
>
> Thank you for your persistence with me. you are brave, LOL.


Brave? I think not. Stubborn, I would definitely agree with that one. I
am persistent. If I feel there is value in something, I keep at it. If
someone seems to be listening, I keep talking. When they shut down, I shut
up. It's how I am. It stems from being a Hospice nurse, I suppose. And
no, not ALL nurses are co-dependent. I am a very strong willed, assertive
person. I scare most men away, which is probably why I haven't had a date
in years. I really hope things work out for you.

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[Cele]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:26:51 +0100, "Dennis Here"
oureply> wrote:

>
>Cele wrote in message ...
>
>snip the flattery
>
>>Meanwhile, on the one hand, I agree that 'freeing' her son to go might
>>be the making of him. Many a youth has left a home out of control, and
>>found out a lot about themselves and life by going to the street for
>>awhile, and come back the wiser and stronger for it.
>>
>>On the other hand, I totally identify with Lorian's fear of seeing him
>>follow that path. Your own reference to your friends who died tells us
>>that the street is not a place that all escape unscathed, and a
>>sixteen year old who has become badly confused and enraged might well
>>have experiences that do him great damage. It's as likely as his
>>having experiences that strengthen him.
>>
>>The solution seems to be to 'let him go' but to seek a healthy place
>>to go to. Lorian appears to be doing that, within the limits of her
>>resources. I suspect that before a whole lot longer he'll decide the
>>matter himself, because gone seventeen, it's pretty hard to keep them
>>if they don't want to stay. And I hope earnestly for both of their
>>sakes that the choices he makes turn out in the end to help rather
>>than hurt his growth.
>
>
>Well there is a good balanced post that weighs up the pro's and con's either
>way. The trouble is that it will not make one iota of difference to him.
>What I was trying to get across is how Lorians son is probably feeling
>rather than how Lorian herself sees it. With that in mind it becomes either
>a question of, despite what maybe out there, letting him go without burning
>too many bridges. Sometimes a young man just has to get out there and see
>for himself.

Yeah, I see that, for sure.

Even when they're NOT giving you a bucketload of grief, they're going
to eventually have to sod off and find out on their own, aren't they?
I'm currently the proud parent of an eighteen year old who finished
her first year of college and then took off for home (the north, where
we used to live) directly, and is now working, shacked up with a
tolerably acceptable boyfriend, and registered for college in the
fall. I'm not supporting her financially 'cause I'm too broke, so
she's kind of making her way, with a bit of help from her Dad and a
lot of help from scholarships she's earned.

I wish she wasn't shacked up with her boyfriend and I wish she was
here, but well, you know, they're going to find things out for
themselves. Could be worse. She could be shacked up under the bridge
and doing crack, she could be sleeping with multiple guys and taking
masses of risks. Gotta let 'em go.

Anyway. Talk about off track. You've got good points.

Take care.

Cele

[Cele]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 04:19:04 GMT, > wrote:

>My YWCA advocate is funny. She said, "never wrestle with pigs. You get
>dirty and the pigs like it."

YES!!!!!! I LOVE that! Bingo!


>> Basically,
>> however you control your reaction to it.
>
>The root of the serenity prayer. I get it.

Right. Exactly.

Cele

[Cele]

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 10:20:36 GMT, > wrote:

>Cele wrote:
>> I don't think you can expect much from 'the system'.
>
>What? Oh, Nooooo!
>
>I'm screwed. LOL.

Heh.

>Whatever's gone wrong before is over, it's written, it's
>> done. You can't affect it. Walk away from it. Work on the now. It's
>> all you can do. For him and for yourself.
>>
>> And be well.
>
>What is it with people who can not see that history repeats itself unless
>you actively seek to stop the cycles?

Lotta ways to stop a cycle, though. Participating by fighting back is
still participating. It enables abusers. Gives 'em something to abuse.
Only way to stop an abuser is to remove the object of abuse, near as I
can tell. But what do I know? :-)

>I've been in therapy so much that it
>is just so clear to me that my son saw me be abused as a child so that is
>what was role modeled for him and now he is acting that out as he becomes a
>man. Also, he is reacting to me as I only know how to live with a man from
>a victim's stand point, I have lots of male friends that I keep at a
>distance but living with one is a different story.

Sounds about right.

> You can't just "let it
>go" or "forget about it" or "put it in the past" abuse isn't like that.

Didn't say that. Said you can't *affect* the past. You can only
*affect* the future. So that's what you do.

>History isn't like that. Time isn't like that. If only it were that
>simple. But it isn't, it is very convoluted.

It doesn't matter what history's like. It's a textbook. You can read
it and learn, or not, but you can't change it. So read, learn, change
the future. What else is there?

> The rest of your post was
>right on, depressing though, as I was really hoping "the system" was going
>to save us. damn.

Well, should I turn out to be wrong, do let me know. I wouldn't mind
saving here, either. LOL

Cele

[Rolly The Pervert]

> wrote in message news:F_oTa.121984$N7.17176@sccrnsc03...
> Betsy wrote:
> > I suppose I shall discover in time, if this is going to continue.
> > One never knows when another may begin the change needed. I have
> > done what I can, and will let time tell the rest. I have learned,
> > the hard way, not to invest too much of myself 'saving' other
> > people. I share my story(ies) and what worked for me. Where I am
> > now, is miles from where I was 12 years ago. It took 12 years to get
> > here, but I am here. I can only act as a guide to those willing to
> > accept guidance. No more need be said. Or rather, I will say no
> > more.
>

> change, Paul is in denial and clearly abusive calling me looney lorain on
> here all the time yet insisting that he is doing nothing wrong, don't talk
> to him

LOL
get a grip looney

[Rolly The Pervert]

"Betsy" > wrote in message
. com...
> In news:F_oTa.121984$N7.17176@sccrnsc03,
> > typed:
> > Betsy wrote:
> >> I suppose I shall discover in time, if this is going to continue.
> >> One never knows when another may begin the change needed. I have
> >> done what I can, and will let time tell the rest. I have learned,
> >> the hard way, not to invest too much of myself 'saving' other
> >> people. I share my story(ies) and what worked for me. Where I am
> >> now, is miles from where I was 12 years ago. It took 12 years to get
> >> here, but I am here. I can only act as a guide to those willing to
> >> accept guidance. No more need be said. Or rather, I will say no
> >> more.
> >
> > what are you talking to HIM for? I have already admitted to needing
> > to change, Paul is in denial and clearly abusive calling me looney
> > lorain on here all the time yet insisting that he is doing nothing
> > wrong, don't talk to him about how hard you have it convincing me
> > that I need to change. That ruins your credibility. Otherwise, I do
> > take your words to heart and appreciate your efforts to help me and
> > my son, and I love your .sig lines, they are funny.
>
> OK, first off, I am free to talk to whomever I choose. Whether you like
it
> or not, whether my son likes it or not, whether my mother likes it or not.
> It's called free choice, and it's a God given gift. Secondly, I am simply
> letting these folks know, that while they disagree with me on whether or
not
> you will change, I (being relatively new here) am going to try. They are
> trying to dissuade me, by telling me I am wasting my time. I am telling
him
> (Paul) in essence, it's my time, I choose how to spend it. If you find it
> ruins my credibility, then I wasn't very credible in your eyes to begin
> with. Sometimes things happen that you don't like, that don't affect you
> directly, that aren't aimed at you, and you don't like them. Get over it,
> move on, don't let it bother you. If I got upset everytime on of my
> co-workers I respected spoke to one of my co-workers I didn't like, I
would
> spend my entired work day upset. It's not worth it.
>


Heh no ****.

Again, I like your tolerance and patience, it's more then i seem to be able
to muster for some

> Betsy
> --
> Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
> ketchup.
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Betsy" > wrote in message
. com...
> In news:F_oTa.121984$N7.17176@sccrnsc03,
> > typed:
> > Betsy wrote:
> >> I suppose I shall discover in time, if this is going to continue.
> >> One never knows when another may begin the change needed. I have
> >> done what I can, and will let time tell the rest. I have learned,
> >> the hard way, not to invest too much of myself 'saving' other
> >> people. I share my story(ies) and what worked for me. Where I am
> >> now, is miles from where I was 12 years ago. It took 12 years to get
> >> here, but I am here. I can only act as a guide to those willing to
> >> accept guidance. No more need be said. Or rather, I will say no
> >> more.
> >
> > what are you talking to HIM for? I have already admitted to needing
> > to change, Paul is in denial and clearly abusive calling me looney
> > lorain on here all the time yet insisting that he is doing nothing
> > wrong, don't talk to him about how hard you have it convincing me
> > that I need to change. That ruins your credibility. Otherwise, I do
> > take your words to heart and appreciate your efforts to help me and
> > my son, and I love your .sig lines, they are funny.
>
> OK, first off, I am free to talk to whomever I choose. Whether you like
it
> or not, whether my son likes it or not, whether my mother likes it or not.
> It's called free choice, and it's a God given gift. Secondly, I am simply
> letting these folks know, that while they disagree with me on whether or
not
> you will change, I (being relatively new here) am going to try. They are
> trying to dissuade me, by telling me I am wasting my time. I am telling
him
> (Paul) in essence, it's my time, I choose how to spend it.

I have never meant to dissuade or otherwise tell you what to do, if that was
what you got from my posts, then it was totally unintended. On the other
hand, that is looney's standard operating procedure.....with constatn
attempts to moderate posts and who and what should be said to whom.

WRT to 'denial' LMAO............except for a few enablers on a couple of
NG's and possibbly a psychobabblists or two........most people can clearly
see the real source of the problem and have correctly placed the blame at
looney's feet. She however......being the perpetual victim, will always find
someone else to blame.......including me, who she wouldn't know if I was
standing in front of her.
Looney has created the problem, but now seeks to blame everyone, her family,
the system, and even people on the NG.


> If you find it
> ruins my credibility, then I wasn't very credible in your eyes to begin
> with. Sometimes things happen that you don't like, that don't affect you
> directly, that aren't aimed at you, and you don't like them. Get over it,
> move on, don't let it bother you. If I got upset everytime on of my
> co-workers I respected spoke to one of my co-workers I didn't like, I
would
> spend my entired work day upset. It's not worth it.
>
> Betsy
> --
> Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
> ketchup.
>
>

[turtledove]

"CME" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> > wrote in message
news:FPnTa.111724$GL4.28999@rwcrnsc53...
> > Dennis Here wrote:
> >
>
> I'm glad there are some positives in your life, AND that you can see them.
> It makes such a difference, hey? I personally think you are an
intelligent,
> insightful, strong and highly motivated person to have done all the things
> you've done with your life thus far. I hope you see that too.
>
> Christine
>
I second that statement. I always have thought that about you. Why don't
you go back and google my support of you for a while.

*bri

[Lisa aka Surfer]

"turtledove" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> > > Since lisa says no binaries here.
> > >
> > > Email me pics of your tits please.
> > >
> > > ( is that better lisa? )
> > >
> > >
> >
> > much thanks
> >
> > oh, and while we're at it,,,,thanks for moving from using "c" to start
> that
> > 4 letter word to "k"
> >
> > I really hate that word
> >
> > It's better when you spell it with a "k"
> >
> > Surf
> >
> >
>
> you absolutely kill me....
> time to clean up the computer screen again....
>
> *bri
>


lol,,,sorry,,,,

[Karen O'Mara]

> wrote in message >...
> If only all psychoes were as obvious as him. The main reason I have gotten
> entangled with the psychoes in my life is because they don't act like this
> until they have been a teddy bear for a loooooong time first. I call them
> ticking time bomb teddy bears, but not until long after I've fallen for
[snip]

I know that I've ignored the red flags that seem so obvious later. The
red flags are our guardian angels. We need to sensitize our antennaes
to them.

Karen

[Paul Fritz]

"Lisa aka Surfer" > wrote in message
...
>
> "turtledove" > wrote in message
> . com...
> >
> > > > Since lisa says no binaries here.
> > > >
> > > > Email me pics of your tits please.
> > > >
> > > > ( is that better lisa? )
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > much thanks
> > >
> > > oh, and while we're at it,,,,thanks for moving from using "c" to start
> > that
> > > 4 letter word to "k"
> > >
> > > I really hate that word
> > >
> > > It's better when you spell it with a "k"
> > >
> > > Surf
> > >
> > >
> >
> > you absolutely kill me....
> > time to clean up the computer screen again....
> >
> > *bri
> >
>
>
> lol,,,sorry,,,,
>

You have a bad habit of doing that ;-)

Betsy wrote:
> In news:F_oTa.121984$N7.17176@sccrnsc03,
> > typed:
>> Betsy wrote:
>>> I suppose I shall discover in time, if this is going to continue.
>>> One never knows when another may begin the change needed. I have
>>> done what I can, and will let time tell the rest. I have learned,
>>> the hard way, not to invest too much of myself 'saving' other
>>> people. I share my story(ies) and what worked for me. Where I am
>>> now, is miles from where I was 12 years ago. It took 12 years to
>>> get here, but I am here. I can only act as a guide to those
>>> willing to accept guidance. No more need be said. Or rather, I
>>> will say no more.
>>
>> what are you talking to HIM for? I have already admitted to needing
>> to change, Paul is in denial and clearly abusive calling me looney
>> lorain on here all the time yet insisting that he is doing nothing
>> wrong, don't talk to him about how hard you have it convincing me
>> that I need to change. That ruins your credibility. Otherwise, I do
>> take your words to heart and appreciate your efforts to help me and
>> my son, and I love your .sig lines, they are funny.
>
> OK, first off, I am free to talk to whomever I choose. Whether you
> like it or not, whether my son likes it or not, whether my mother
> likes it or not. It's called free choice, and it's a God given gift.
> Secondly, I am simply letting these folks know, that while they
> disagree with me on whether or not you will change, I (being
> relatively new here) am going to try. They are trying to dissuade
> me, by telling me I am wasting my time. I am telling him (Paul) in
> essence, it's my time, I choose how to spend it. If you find it
> ruins my credibility, then I wasn't very credible in your eyes to
> begin with. Sometimes things happen that you don't like, that don't
> affect you directly, that aren't aimed at you, and you don't like
> them. Get over it, move on, don't let it bother you. If I got upset
> everytime on of my co-workers I respected spoke to one of my
> co-workers I didn't like, I would spend my entired work day upset.
> It's not worth it.
>
> Betsy

Since you are relatively new perhaps you are not as aware as the rest of us
that Paul Fritz has been harassing me for years now so of course I take
offense that you would dignify him by talking to him as if he had integrity.
If people hadn't welcomed him when he followed me over here from
alt.child-support where he originated his campaign of hate against me he
wouldn't still be here, calling me looney lorain and mocking my feminist
ideals day in and day out. He rarely talks about his children as clearly
that is not his main purpose here. Most of his posts are directed at me. I
wasn't trying to control you so chill out. If he called you names and made
fun of you all the time, I wouldn't talk to him like he was normal so I
don't understand it when you talk to him like nothing is wrong.

Another Time Another Place wrote:
> > wrote ...
> <snipping loads of stuff that others reply too so much better then I>
>
>>
>> And I'm really afraid my son is
>> going to tell my mother that I am bisexual. Damn that kid.
>>
>
> *if* you think it is any of your mothers concern... Tell her yourself

of course I don't think it's any of my mother's concern. She would flip a
flying lid. She already won't come in my house because I have a child and
am not married. If she knew I had dated women in the past she wouldn't let
me in hers. The way my son is out there telling the police god knows what
to have succesfully gotten me committed to the psych unit last week, who
knows what he is telling my mother? So, I worry.

I was hoping she wouldn't find out until I was famous ;-)

Karen O'Mara wrote:
> > wrote in message
> >...
>> If only all psychoes were as obvious as him. The main reason I have
>> gotten entangled with the psychoes in my life is because they don't
>> act like this until they have been a teddy bear for a loooooong time
>> first. I call them ticking time bomb teddy bears, but not until
>> long after I've fallen for
> [snip]


> I know that I've ignored the red flags that seem so obvious later. The
> red flags are our guardian angels. We need to sensitize our antennaes
> to them.
>
> Karen

some psychoes are either really good at faking normal or really do care so
much for me that they are dr. jekyll when they are with me and mr. hyde to
other people or have been mr. hyde at times in the past and are trying
really hard not to be when they are with me but after awhile the
undercurrent of danger comes to the surface but by then I'm entangled. And
if they have fixated on me they do not go away until they choose to go away,
I can break up with them all I want and it does no good, in fact it just
****es them off and makes things worse for me. If I called 911 every time
I've had to save myself they'd give me my own separate line and charge me a
monthly fee.

[Joelle]

>ome psychoes are either really good at faking normal or really do care so
>much for me that they are dr. jekyll when they are with me and mr. hyde to
>other people or have been mr. hyde at times in the past and are trying

>eally hard not to be when they are with me but after awhile the
>undercurrent of danger comes to the surface but by then I'm entangled.

SIgh. I know I'm just farting in the wind here, but honestly Lorian, if once
or twice you meet some guy who really did "change" after you got to know him,
well, once can happen to anyone, twice, it's time to start thinking twice, but
if this is happening to you often or "all the time" you really do have to look
at yourself. Most men are not Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde - and if the majority of
the men you are attracted to are, then you have to look at yourself and why you
are drawn to that sort of person. Or you may be expecting it of them and you
see it when it's not there.

Yea I know, I'm being oppressive and blaming the victim. I've really sort of
given up on you - but maybe someone else reading this who is in the same
pattern will think about it and look at what they can do to change the pattern.


Joelle

[Betsy]

In news:vY_Ta.122813$OZ2.24517@rwcrnsc54,
> typed:
> Betsy wrote:
>
>> Brave? I think not. Stubborn, I would definitely agree with that
>> one.
>
> I still think you are brave, too. ;-)
>
> I am persistent. If I feel there is value in something, I keep
>> at it. If someone seems to be listening, I keep talking. When they
>> shut down, I shut up. It's how I am. It stems from being a Hospice
>> nurse, I suppose.
>
> A hospice nurse? You are very brave.
>

Nah, not brave. That's just what nursing is to me anymore. I became a
nurse to help people. I found the care given in the hospital was less what
I had hoped to provide. Running in and out of 8 patients rooms, giving them
all their medication, being available for the doctors, and then running to a
code situation (this was a cardiac unit so that happened more often than I
liked) made quality difficult. I think what made me finally want to leave
the hospital was a patient that was brought into the emergency room by
ambulance. The paramedics were attempting to recuscitate, so we continued
the efforts. There were the external defibrillator pads on this guy (these
are used in place of paddles sometimes) because he just had a pacemaker put
in a week or so prior. The doctor asked if any of the nurses knew how to
administer the shock using the pads. I said, "I do." So he tells me to
give the shock. After that we get the flat line. The guy was gone. The
doctor patted my shoulder and said, "Good job." I was speechless. I had
participated in subjecting this man's final moments to drugs, needles, the
humility of nudity in a strange environment, and finally the pain of
electrical cardioversion. This was not care, it seemed to me. It was
torture. The man was 89 years old, why couldn't we let him die in peace and
dignity. That's when I realized I needed to get out of the hospital. I
either needed to go into OB, or pediatrics, where there were much greater
'successes,' or leave nursing altogether. Hospice work never occurred to
me. It was when I met up with a former class mate, and former best friend
but that's another story, and she told me about her job with Hospice. I
told her if there was another position open, I would love to work there.
She worked in a different county, however. BUT one of the nurses where she
worked, used to work at the Hospice where I currently work, and she knew
there was a position. So all in all I think it was fate, or destiny, or
divine calling. Call it what you like, I am actually where I want to be,
doing what I want to do, and loving every minute of it. OK, not EVERY
minute of it. But I feel rewarded when I am finished with my work for the
day. I get to care for the WHOLE patient, not just, "the new pacemaker in
29," or, "The post-MI in 18." There is a true connection with these people
that I get to feel. And I feel the difference I make in lives every day.
It's a good feeling to get. Oh boy, is THIS off-topic!!

> And no, not ALL nurses are co-dependent. I am a
>> very strong willed, assertive person. I scare most men away, which
>> is probably why I haven't had a date in years.
>
> One of my "lorianisms" is "my idea of the ideal man is one who is not
> afraid of me!"
>
> I really hope things
>> work out for you.
>>
>> Betsy
>
> Thanks. Did you read my post about the little mishap I had falling
> into the crevice between my coffee table and book case? LOL. It's
> funny now but I was not so brave when I was stuck there for an hour.
> I have the weirdest experiences. I am in such a good mood today, I
> really value the freedom to move about, although I am covered in
> bruises from the fall and achy, I'm glad I was able to get out of
> that mess and go to school today.

I read your post, but I wasn't sure how to respond. Glad you are not in too
much pain from that. If I had become stuck in such a fashion, no doubt I
would be immobile. I think that has to do with the location of injury.
Mine is cervical, and the neck is an area that controls the rest of the
body, so to speak. Damage to the cervical spinal cord causes weakness or
paralysis to the lower part of the body. That's why I am so afraid of
surgery to that area. Therapy has helped a great deal, but the arthritis in
my neck will never go away. I wake up achy every day, and if I have a nap
for some reason, I am achy when I wake from that as well. I am 31, and
falling apart. Again I am glad you are mobile, and I hope you feel better
soon.

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[CME]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >ome psychoes are either really good at faking normal or really do care so
> >much for me that they are dr. jekyll when they are with me and mr. hyde
to
> >other people or have been mr. hyde at times in the past and are trying
>
> >eally hard not to be when they are with me but after awhile the
> >undercurrent of danger comes to the surface but by then I'm entangled.
>
> SIgh. I know I'm just farting in the wind here, but honestly Lorian, if
once
> or twice you meet some guy who really did "change" after you got to know
him,
> well, once can happen to anyone, twice, it's time to start thinking twice,
but
> if this is happening to you often or "all the time" you really do have to
look
> at yourself. Most men are not Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde - and if the majority
of
> the men you are attracted to are, then you have to look at yourself and
why you
> are drawn to that sort of person. Or you may be expecting it of them and
you
> see it when it's not there.
>
> Yea I know, I'm being oppressive and blaming the victim. I've really sort
of
> given up on you - but maybe someone else reading this who is in the same
> pattern will think about it and look at what they can do to change the
pattern.
>
>
> Joelle

From what she's said though, is that that was the past. She isn't dating
anyone for exactly those reasons. And I don't think that pointing out how
one falls into patterns of behaviour is victim blaming, so hopefully she
sees that.

Christine

turtledove wrote:

> Woah!! I know that you and Paul have issues between each other...but
> that doesn't mean that everyone has issues with him.

how you can defend him i do not understand. we keep having this same
argument brianne. how can you be my friend and at the same time defend a
man who consistently makes fun of my mental illness for god's sake? he
followed me here from alt.child-support to harass me and just like all the
others who have come here to troll me he has been welcomed by you and some
other regulars instead of condemned so he stayed and got along with you but
persisted in his harassment of me. thanks a lot.

And Cele posted once all about how sick Paul Fritz is to mock my mental
disability and how he needed to stop doing that and she thought she had the
support of the group regulars...

> And Paul talks about his daughter here on a regular basis.

really? google.com tells otherwise. Of his 1,160 posts only 128 include
the word daughter and only 89 of those are about HIS daughter. 69 are about
lorain, 67 are about lorian, 61 are about loony, 16 are about looney, 14 are
about feminitwit, 2 are about loon, 52 are about how he discredits my
beliefs by saying it's just women's studies, 16 from feminism, and in 77
posts he just refers to me simply as LL. That is over 300. There are
probably more but I got tired of remembering all the names he has called me.

> Most of his posts are not directed at you because you haven't been
> posting here regularly except for the past 2 weeks.

I've been posting here for four years. He has been posting here for one
year. I came here for support as a single parent, he came here to harass me
and Moonshyne and he followed us from alt.child-support to do just that.
That is easy to prove, google tells all.

His introduction to the newsgroup a year ago this month was harassing
messages like:

From: "Paul Fritz" >
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:55:49 -0400
Message-ID:

"BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA

lorian with her classic "woman's studies " defense. When you cannot refute
the facts resort to this sort of response."

> wrote in message
. net...
> We try to warn people not to go to alt.child-support because of the sharks
> over there ,they are obviously out for blood. Put up a fight, you get
more
> blood. Try to leave, they follow the trail of blood. Bloody sharks.

"Nope, just posting the facts......something the like of you cannot
comprehend."

From: "Paul Fritz" >
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:12:28 -0400
Message-ID:

"Moonie has been caught in another of her long string of lies So typical of
moonie to feign ignorance

Here is the original post where moonie invited everyone with headers. Her
invite is the second to last response by her She didn't get the nickname
'nasty' for nothing."

<snip>

>It's [the parenting plan] posted to alt.support.single-parents -- you're
welcome to go see for yourself.

and just the other day still is harassing Moonshyne (Amy Lynn) (accusing her
of parental alienation which is pretty serious and routinely done over on
alt.child-support but I had hoped regulars here would not tolerate) with
this post:

Message-ID: >
From: "Paul Fritz" >
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:34:59 -0400

"Nope, but not surpising coming from the parental alienator amy
lynn...........ever the ASSuming ass..."

Paul has been
> posting on a daily basis since he's been on here.

not every day, every week though. and he flirts with you, take a closer
look at how he treats the women he does not get along with, that is, the
women he chooses to take out his rage on ... is that really acceptable to
you? the dr. jekyll/mr. hyde thing is a serious problem, listen to me!

> You take offense? Offense? How dare you try to control and
> manipulate someone by using that choice of wording. Geez, you sound
> like my grandmother when she takes 'offense' of me not going to her
> church.

I'm not trying to control you, I'm telling you how I feel when you are
friendly toward people who go out of their way to hurt me every chance they
get for over a year!

> Sweetheart.....STOP IT!!! You're having a good day, ENJOY IT! Why
> waste so much time on such negativity. Light a candle, burn some
> incense, meditate, go outside and look at the stars, listen to some
> uplifting music, focus on the GOOD.

I am, but I can't just ignore the train wreck that is this news group
sometimes, LOL!

> all said with the utmost love and respect,
> *bri

oh, maybe I'll write a song about it and you can sing and dance to it while
Paul makes fun of it. LOL!

Really Brianne, this is serious. Think about this. Why do you feel the
need to keep the peace with men who you see continuously harassing other
women?

Joelle wrote:
>> ome psychoes are either really good at faking normal or really do
>> care so much for me that they are dr. jekyll when they are with me
>> and mr. hyde to other people or have been mr. hyde at times in the
>> past and are trying
>
>> eally hard not to be when they are with me but after awhile the
>> undercurrent of danger comes to the surface but by then I'm
>> entangled.
>
> SIgh. I know I'm just farting in the wind here, but honestly Lorian,
> if once or twice you meet some guy who really did "change" after you
> got to know him, well, once can happen to anyone, twice, it's time to
> start thinking twice, but if this is happening to you often or "all
> the time" you really do have to look at yourself. Most men are not
> Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde - and if the majority of the men you are
> attracted to are, then you have to look at yourself and why you are
> drawn to that sort of person. Or you may be expecting it of them and
> you see it when it's not there.
>
> Yea I know, I'm being oppressive and blaming the victim. I've really
> sort of given up on you - but maybe someone else reading this who is
> in the same pattern will think about it and look at what they can do
> to change the pattern.
>
>
> Joelle

You must not be paying attention to this thread or something and are taking
this post out of context. I already said that I have been abstinent for
seven years, I've said that many times and I'm getting sick of saying it. I
have also said repeatedly that I already recognize the pattern of abuse in
my life. I grew up being abused, I attracted abusers as an adult, my son
learned to become an abuser. I have also said that psychoes are drawn to
the combination of my fiery personality and my lovingness and I am drawn to
them because I know how to be with them and I don't feel guilty with them
because they are always even more screwed up than I am and at least I get
something resembling love out of it. But I am most definitely better off
alone while I am in therapy and while I am in school and while I am trying
to see my son through his last years to adulthood. So wherever you were at
when you gave up on me, go back and pick up where you left off and try
again.

Betsy wrote:

> Nah, not brave.

well, I think most of us would beg to differ and would shrink at doing what
nurses do everyday, I know I couldn't do all that, my hat's off to you!

That's just what nursing is to me anymore. I became
> a nurse to help people. I found the care given in the hospital was
> less what I had hoped to provide. Running in and out of 8 patients
> rooms, giving them all their medication, being available for the
> doctors, and then running to a code situation (this was a cardiac
> unit so that happened more often than I liked) made quality
> difficult. I think what made me finally want to leave the hospital
> was a patient that was brought into the emergency room by ambulance.
> The paramedics were attempting to recuscitate, so we continued the
> efforts. There were the external defibrillator pads on this guy
> (these are used in place of paddles sometimes) because he just had a
> pacemaker put in a week or so prior. The doctor asked if any of the
> nurses knew how to administer the shock using the pads. I said, "I
> do." So he tells me to give the shock. After that we get the flat
> line. The guy was gone. The doctor patted my shoulder and said,
> "Good job." I was speechless. I had participated in subjecting this
> man's final moments to drugs, needles, the humility of nudity in a
> strange environment, and finally the pain of electrical
> cardioversion. This was not care, it seemed to me. It was torture.
> The man was 89 years old, why couldn't we let him die in peace and
> dignity. That's when I realized I needed to get out of the hospital.

The inhumanity of modern medicine astounds me at times.

> I either needed to go into OB, or pediatrics, where there were much
> greater 'successes,' or leave nursing altogether. Hospice work never
> occurred to me. It was when I met up with a former class mate, and
> former best friend but that's another story, and she told me about
> her job with Hospice. I told her if there was another position open,
> I would love to work there. She worked in a different county,
> however. BUT one of the nurses where she worked, used to work at the
> Hospice where I currently work, and she knew there was a position.
> So all in all I think it was fate, or destiny, or divine calling.
> Call it what you like, I am actually where I want to be, doing what I
> want to do, and loving every minute of it. OK, not EVERY minute of
> it. But I feel rewarded when I am finished with my work for the day.
> I get to care for the WHOLE patient, not just, "the new pacemaker in
> 29," or, "The post-MI in 18." There is a true connection with these
> people that I get to feel. And I feel the difference I make in lives
> every day. It's a good feeling to get. Oh boy, is THIS off-topic!!

Now this is interesting to me because I am interested in a career in medical
genetics research.


> I read your post, but I wasn't sure how to respond. Glad you are not
> in too much pain from that. If I had become stuck in such a fashion,
> no doubt I would be immobile. I think that has to do with the
> location of injury. Mine is cervical, and the neck is an area that
> controls the rest of the body, so to speak. Damage to the cervical
> spinal cord causes weakness or paralysis to the lower part of the
> body. That's why I am so afraid of surgery to that area. Therapy
> has helped a great deal, but the arthritis in my neck will never go
> away. I wake up achy every day, and if I have a nap for some reason,
> I am achy when I wake from that as well. I am 31, and falling apart.

Me too. I'm 36 but I look 26 and feel a lot older than either one. My
saying is that I look young but my eyes and back know how old I really am!

> Again I am glad you are mobile, and I hope you feel better soon.
>
> Betsy

I feel grateful to be free, I'm gonna get some coasters to put under the
corners of the coffee table so that never happens again! Sorry to hear of
your upper back pain, believe me I can sympathize. chronic pain sucks.
Especially for such an active career as the one you have. There are others
on this newsgroup who can relate to chronic pain as well, you can search
google.com for fairly recent discussions we've had on that subject and
advice and support I've already forgotten. Take care!

[turtledove]

> wrote in message
. net...
> turtledove wrote:
>
> > Woah!! I know that you and Paul have issues between each other...but
> > that doesn't mean that everyone has issues with him.
>
> how you can defend him i do not understand. we keep having this same
> argument brianne. how can you be my friend and at the same time defend a
> man who consistently makes fun of my mental illness for god's sake? he
> followed me here from alt.child-support to harass me and just like all the
> others who have come here to troll me he has been welcomed by you and some
> other regulars instead of condemned so he stayed and got along with you
but
> persisted in his harassment of me. thanks a lot.
>
> And Cele posted once all about how sick Paul Fritz is to mock my mental
> disability and how he needed to stop doing that and she thought she had
the
> support of the group regulars...
>
> > And Paul talks about his daughter here on a regular basis.
>
> really? google.com tells otherwise. Of his 1,160 posts only 128 include
> the word daughter and only 89 of those are about HIS daughter. 69 are
about
> lorain, 67 are about lorian, 61 are about loony, 16 are about looney, 14
are
> about feminitwit, 2 are about loon, 52 are about how he discredits my
> beliefs by saying it's just women's studies, 16 from feminism, and in 77
> posts he just refers to me simply as LL. That is over 300. There are
> probably more but I got tired of remembering all the names he has called
me.
>
> > Most of his posts are not directed at you because you haven't been
> > posting here regularly except for the past 2 weeks.
>
> I've been posting here for four years. He has been posting here for one
> year. I came here for support as a single parent, he came here to harass
me
> and Moonshyne and he followed us from alt.child-support to do just that.
> That is easy to prove, google tells all.
>
> oh, maybe I'll write a song about it and you can sing and dance to it
while
> Paul makes fun of it. LOL!
>
> Really Brianne, this is serious. Think about this. Why do you feel the
> need to keep the peace with men who you see continuously harassing other
> women?
>

Deja vu
I've been here before with you
this time I simply don't have the mental faculties or patience to deal with
it anymore.

In a nutshell: Paul and I are fine. You keep feeding Paul opportunities to
pick on you. In fact, when he doesn't You follow HIM around here until he
does by complaining to everyone about him or whoever else YOU deem unfit
according to YOUR standards.

This is YOUR battle. One which you ALWAYS choose to get into when you are
emotionally raw. It's a pattern with you. When you feel horrible
emotionally, instead of ignorning posts that you should IGNORE, you attack.
over and over and over again.

Google me this batgirl: instead of always finding the negative look for the
positive. YOu have YET to post this. Post how often you are told what an
amazing person you are. Post how many times I or anyone else has said that
you have the ability in yourself to succeed at anything. Post how many
times someone has given you GOOD no GREAT advice. Focus you energy on the
positive.

*rant off*

*b

[Paul Fritz]

"turtledove" > wrote in message
om...
>
> > wrote in message
> . net...
> > turtledove wrote:
> >
> > > Woah!! I know that you and Paul have issues between each other...but
> > > that doesn't mean that everyone has issues with him.
> >
> > how you can defend him i do not understand. we keep having this same
> > argument brianne. how can you be my friend and at the same time defend
a
> > man who consistently makes fun of my mental illness for god's sake? he
> > followed me here from alt.child-support to harass me and just like all
the
> > others who have come here to troll me he has been welcomed by you and
some
> > other regulars instead of condemned so he stayed and got along with you
> but
> > persisted in his harassment of me. thanks a lot.
> >
> > And Cele posted once all about how sick Paul Fritz is to mock my mental
> > disability and how he needed to stop doing that and she thought she had
> the
> > support of the group regulars...
> >
> > > And Paul talks about his daughter here on a regular basis.
> >
> > really? google.com tells otherwise. Of his 1,160 posts only 128
include
> > the word daughter and only 89 of those are about HIS daughter. 69 are
> about
> > lorain, 67 are about lorian, 61 are about loony, 16 are about looney, 14
> are
> > about feminitwit, 2 are about loon, 52 are about how he discredits my
> > beliefs by saying it's just women's studies, 16 from feminism, and in 77
> > posts he just refers to me simply as LL. That is over 300. There are
> > probably more but I got tired of remembering all the names he has called
> me.
> >
> > > Most of his posts are not directed at you because you haven't been
> > > posting here regularly except for the past 2 weeks.
> >
> > I've been posting here for four years. He has been posting here for one
> > year. I came here for support as a single parent, he came here to
harass
> me
> > and Moonshyne and he followed us from alt.child-support to do just that.
> > That is easy to prove, google tells all.
> >
> > oh, maybe I'll write a song about it and you can sing and dance to it
> while
> > Paul makes fun of it. LOL!
> >
> > Really Brianne, this is serious. Think about this. Why do you feel the
> > need to keep the peace with men who you see continuously harassing other
> > women?
> >
>
> Deja vu
> I've been here before with you
> this time I simply don't have the mental faculties or patience to deal
with
> it anymore.
>
> In a nutshell: Paul and I are fine. You keep feeding Paul opportunities
to
> pick on you. In fact, when he doesn't You follow HIM around here until he
> does by complaining to everyone about him or whoever else YOU deem unfit
> according to YOUR standards.
>
> This is YOUR battle. One which you ALWAYS choose to get into when you are
> emotionally raw. It's a pattern with you. When you feel horrible
> emotionally, instead of ignorning posts that you should IGNORE, you
attack.
> over and over and over again.
>
> Google me this batgirl: instead of always finding the negative look for
the
> positive. YOu have YET to post this. Post how often you are told what an
> amazing person you are. Post how many times I or anyone else has said
that
> you have the ability in yourself to succeed at anything. Post how many
> times someone has given you GOOD no GREAT advice. Focus you energy on the
> positive.
>
> *rant off*

Some random thoughts

As usual, looney is off in her own fantasy land. I think I'll do a little
research on google as to how many time other people have told looney just
how ridiculous she is..........I wonder if there is enough bandwidth to post
all the comments from all those people?

I won't waste my time looking up the little amount she posts about her son
in comparison to whining 'abuse' or trying to moderate dicussion.

Seems to me, looney is the abuser and 'stalker' with the amount of googling
she done over me <snicker>

As for following anyone into here.....first, anybody in the world can
subscribe and post to unmoderated NGs.....second, the parental alienator amy
lynn, aka moonshyne, aka stumpy, INVITED the world to revue her 'parenting'
time agreement or what every it was that hse had posted her......a fact that
looney fails to mention.

Both looney and stumpy have a history of taking things offline, harassing
people at work, posting names and address in NGs (including sex related
ones) filing complaints with police/courts over other
posters........................they are both the true ABUSERS






>
> *b
>
>

[CME]

> wrote in message
. net...
> CME wrote:
> > "Joelle" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>> ome psychoes are either really good at faking normal or really do
> >>> care so much for me that they are dr. jekyll when they are with me
> >>> and mr. hyde to other people or have been mr. hyde at times in the
> >>> past and are trying
> >>
> >>> eally hard not to be when they are with me but after awhile the
> >>> undercurrent of danger comes to the surface but by then I'm
> >>> entangled.
> >>
> >> SIgh. I know I'm just farting in the wind here, but honestly
> >> Lorian, if once or twice you meet some guy who really did "change"
> >> after you got to know him, well, once can happen to anyone, twice,
> >> it's time to start thinking twice, but if this is happening to you
> >> often or "all the time" you really do have to look at yourself.
> >> Most men are not Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde - and if the majority of the
> >> men you are attracted to are, then you have to look at yourself and
> >> why you are drawn to that sort of person. Or you may be expecting
> >> it of them and you see it when it's not there.
> >>
> >> Yea I know, I'm being oppressive and blaming the victim. I've
> >> really sort of given up on you - but maybe someone else reading this
> >> who is in the same pattern will think about it and look at what they
> >> can do to change the pattern.
> >>
> >>
> >> Joelle
> >
> > From what she's said though, is that that was the past. She isn't
> > dating anyone for exactly those reasons. And I don't think that
> > pointing out how one falls into patterns of behaviour is victim
> > blaming, so hopefully she sees that.
> >
> > Christine
>
> I did sort of say it in the present tense because after all these years of
> abstinence my son got sick of me and last fall told me to go find
somebody.
> The first guy I met was a jerk and I found out fairly quickly but the
second
> guy was really nice and I really liked him and we got along great for
> several months but something wasn't right and although he really seemed to
> like me he kept his distance and seemed to have a lot of secrets and just
> the more I find out the worse it gets and he's looking like the jackpot of
> all psychoes ever and he's really fixated on me. I don't even want to
think
> about it. I broke up with him months ago but he doesn't seem to recall
> that. When I'm not around he hits on women who look like me. great. But
> to see this guy and be with him, you wouldn't know he was any of the
things
> I have heard about him. That is what is weird. My past abusers have been
> flat out trying to kill me so there was no denial. This guy is more like
> Ted Bundy, good looking and clean cut but something ain't right and other
> people are telling you that but you just can't believe it but your
instincts
> are telling you to get out.

Well maybe that's part of your problem. I know for me, if my instincts are
telling me that something is wrong with a person. I listen. Period. It
seems like you stick around to prove yourself right.


Christine



In psychology it's called cognitive dissonance,
> what you see or know and what you feel don't match so you walk around very
> confused and it's hard to take action. That and I just don't want to
> believe this is happening, I feel trapped again, I don't want to run away
> again, this time I have too much to lose. I never had that before.
Whoever
> said time heals all wounds was wrong. The YWCA offers a pattern changing
> class and every time I try to sign up it's full. I need that damn class.
>
>

[Joelle]

> I think I'll do a little
>research on google as to how many time other people have told looney just
>how ridiculous she is.

I just told Lorain she was weird to do this. If you do this, it's weird and
creepy. I think both of you have this weird and creepy thing going on and I
think you both should stop.

Joelle

[Cele]

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 07:37:09 GMT, > wrote:

>turtledove wrote:
>
>> Woah!! I know that you and Paul have issues between each other...but
>> that doesn't mean that everyone has issues with him.
>
>how you can defend him i do not understand. we keep having this same
>argument brianne. how can you be my friend and at the same time defend a
>man who consistently makes fun of my mental illness for god's sake? he
>followed me here from alt.child-support to harass me and just like all the
>others who have come here to troll me he has been welcomed by you and some
>other regulars instead of condemned so he stayed and got along with you but
>persisted in his harassment of me. thanks a lot.
>
>And Cele posted once all about how sick Paul Fritz is to mock my mental
>disability and how he needed to stop doing that and she thought she had the
>support of the group regulars...

I posted that I thought, and I continue to think, that it was and is a
moral wrong. I said that I would not respond to posts using that
terminology or displaying that behaviour, which I haven't done,
because I mean and believe what I say.

What I felt at that time WRT the rest of the group, was that quite a
lot of people agreed with me on that point. That is, there were many
who felt that Paul's behaviour in this respect was wrong, and they
objected to it. Many did so visibly.

I think that's still the case. My perception is, rightly or wrongly,
that sometimes people see it as an aberration of his, and so they
ignore it because they like him otherwise and recognize that he's not
likely to change. I agree that he's not likely to change. He's made a
conscious decision to behave in the way that he does and he's
apparently uninterested in examining how it reflects on himself, and
that's of course his own business.

People here are largely being pragmatic, IMO. They recognize that
Paul's behaviour is as it is, and they further recognize that
discussing it and increasing references to it appear consistently to
fan the flames. For months and months when you didn't react, his
references to you at all were much more limited and his abusive
terminology was much less. But as soon as it becomes a topic of
discussion for whatever reason, his behaviour is reinforced and
increases. Pragmatically speaking, the apparent *effective* way to
diminish the unwanted behaviour is to ignore it.

I think most experienced usenet posters have had some occasions on
which they've been verbally mistreated in a pretty big way. The most
foul one in my case was a fellow who attacked me in another echo and
told me variously that my daughter's assault was her own fault simply
because she was 13, or that he didn't believe she'd been assaulted, or
that I was an enabler, or it was my fault she was assaulted, or
whatever. His posts were pretty vicious and uncalled for, and everyone
that mattered in that group recognised this. As soon as he became
abusive and vicious, I ceased posting to him altogether. My attitude
was that when he sank to that level, he was no longer worth my time. I
simply wouldn't dignify his comments with a response. And after awhile
he lost interest and went away. Meanwhile, other posters had no
difficulty recognising where the trouble lay, whether they said so or
not. I knew that.

What led me to that position was that I recognised I could not control
him. I could only control me. If I couldn't make him stop, I would
make me stop. Abusive cycles can only continue if there are at least
two players. I deprived him of that second player by completely
ceasing to respond. Whether you agree with the underpinning need to do
so, it's what works.

It's important to separate 'should' from 'is'. In the ideal world, we
*should* be able to express ourselves freely without abuse, we
*should* be able to trust one another totally and we *should* be able
to expect compassion and just treatment wherever we go. But in this
world, the *is* is very different. Railing against the absence of
those *shoulds* not only doesn't help address the problem, it also
takes energy away from where it's needed, in the world of 'is'.

>> And Paul talks about his daughter here on a regular basis.
>
>really? google.com tells otherwise. Of his 1,160 posts only 128 include
>the word daughter and only 89 of those are about HIS daughter. 69 are about
>lorain, 67 are about lorian, 61 are about loony, 16 are about looney, 14 are
>about feminitwit, 2 are about loon, 52 are about how he discredits my
>beliefs by saying it's just women's studies, 16 from feminism, and in 77
>posts he just refers to me simply as LL. That is over 300. There are
>probably more but I got tired of remembering all the names he has called me.
>
>> Most of his posts are not directed at you because you haven't been
>> posting here regularly except for the past 2 weeks.
>
>I've been posting here for four years. He has been posting here for one
>year. I came here for support as a single parent, he came here to harass me
>and Moonshyne and he followed us from alt.child-support to do just that.
>That is easy to prove, google tells all.
>
>His introduction to the newsgroup a year ago this month was harassing
>messages like:
>
>From: "Paul Fritz" >
>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:55:49 -0400
>Message-ID:
>
>"BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
>
>lorian with her classic "woman's studies " defense. When you cannot refute
>the facts resort to this sort of response."
>
> wrote in message
. net...
>> We try to warn people not to go to alt.child-support because of the sharks
>> over there ,they are obviously out for blood. Put up a fight, you get
> more
>> blood. Try to leave, they follow the trail of blood. Bloody sharks.
>
>"Nope, just posting the facts......something the like of you cannot
>comprehend."
>
>From: "Paul Fritz" >
>Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:12:28 -0400
>Message-ID:
>
>"Moonie has been caught in another of her long string of lies So typical of
>moonie to feign ignorance
>
>Here is the original post where moonie invited everyone with headers. Her
>invite is the second to last response by her She didn't get the nickname
>'nasty' for nothing."
>
><snip>
>
>>It's [the parenting plan] posted to alt.support.single-parents -- you're
>welcome to go see for yourself.
>
>and just the other day still is harassing Moonshyne (Amy Lynn) (accusing her
>of parental alienation which is pretty serious and routinely done over on
>alt.child-support but I had hoped regulars here would not tolerate) with
>this post:
>
>Message-ID: >
>From: "Paul Fritz" >
>Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:34:59 -0400
>
>"Nope, but not surpising coming from the parental alienator amy
>lynn...........ever the ASSuming ass..."
>
> Paul has been
>> posting on a daily basis since he's been on here.
>
>not every day, every week though.

Lorian, who care where, how and about what Paul posts? All of the
focus on Paul and his posting habits only serves to draw more
attention to your frustration and anger with him. Given that his style
is a conscious choice, that's probably very gratifying for him. It's
important to realize that.

Everyone with a clue can recognize rude and nasty behaviour when they
see it, whether they acknowledge it aloud or not. You're either
preaching to the choir, or you're telling people who've already
decided not to hear. Think about what your goal is. Is it to stop
Paul? Is it to get a certain response from other people? Is it to take
what's available in the way of support? Really and truly, the best
possible way to proceed, IMO, is to decide what specific goals you
have on this matter. Having done that, you need to think very
carefully about what, in the pragmatic world, is most likely to be
effective in achieving those goals. Probably, it won't have much to do
with feelings, legitimate though they may be. It'll have to do with
action and inaction.

>and he flirts with you, take a closer
>look at how he treats the women he does not get along with, that is, the
>women he chooses to take out his rage on ... is that really acceptable to
>you? the dr. jekyll/mr. hyde thing is a serious problem, listen to me!

Paul flirts with damned near everyone. Some buy in, some don't. It's
not your worry how they respond. You can't walk other people's paths
for them. You can only make sure you're walking your own in the
healthiest possible way. Paul *isn't* a serious problem for Brianne,
and it seems like jekyll/hyde men aren't either. Brianne likely has
her *own* things to work out and they're different from yours, as are
mine and everyone else's. She's made an open statement that she
disagrees with his behaviour WRT you. Her position is clear. Beyond
that, what she chooses to do with her time and interactions really has
nothing to do with you at all.

I understand that your feelings are hurt. There's a 'them' and 'us'
thing iin human minds that seems to result in our expecting people to
choose. It's the same mechanism that results in kids feeling really
torn between hostile parents, for example. Even the kids recognise
that human tendency for people to see the world in terms of 'them' and
'us' and to want everyone to choose our own side. It's natural, when
we feel we have to draw up sides because we're in a battle, for us to
want everyone on our own side. But feelings aren't always a good guide
to effective behaviour, as you're well aware. Those hurt feelings can
lead you to say and do things that end up alienating the very people
you had hoped to keep on your side, as it were.

>> You take offense? Offense? How dare you try to control and
>> manipulate someone by using that choice of wording. Geez, you sound
>> like my grandmother when she takes 'offense' of me not going to her
>> church.
>
>I'm not trying to control you, I'm telling you how I feel when you are
>friendly toward people who go out of their way to hurt me every chance they
>get for over a year!

Lorian, virtually everyone on the planet does things that are
offensive at one time or another. If all of us chose not to interact
with everyone who behaved badly some of the time, nobody'd talk to
anyone and human society would collapse.

I think everyone recognises that Paul is very hurtful towards you. In
a group like this, I'd say the strong evidence of that is that mob
mentality has *not* engaged, with everyone else chiming in and
actively becoming part of the hurt. The whole white crow syndrome
could easily have kicked in here, and it's a testimony to people's
willingness to think for themselves that it hasn't. In fact, there've
been numerous public statements, at one time, denouncing the targeting
behaviour. I suggest that although that may not feel like enough to
you, it's remarkable that you've got that much support.

>> Sweetheart.....STOP IT!!! You're having a good day, ENJOY IT! Why
>> waste so much time on such negativity. Light a candle, burn some
>> incense, meditate, go outside and look at the stars, listen to some
>> uplifting music, focus on the GOOD.
>
>I am, but I can't just ignore the train wreck that is this news group
>sometimes, LOL!

Yes, you can. You really can. If you recognise in your heart that it's
the best thing to do at times, you can do it.

You know, I'm sitting here musing about you and Joelle. Joelle has
said clearly that she chooses not to post much about her personal life
here because it hurts when people are judgemental or negative or
whatever about her posts of that nature. You're posting some things
that can make you pretty vulnerable even when you *know* that you'll
get those kinds of reactions, and indeed, you find them upsetting.
You're like opposites on that score, you and Joelle.

I suspect the amount of posting one ought to do on one's personal life
is proportional to the amount of harassment one is capable of and
willing to ***completely ignore.***

>> all said with the utmost love and respect,
>> *bri
>
>oh, maybe I'll write a song about it and you can sing and dance to it while
>Paul makes fun of it. LOL!

That could be taken any of several ways.

>Really Brianne, this is serious. Think about this. Why do you feel the
>need to keep the peace with men who you see continuously harassing other
>women?

Whoa. You have a sample size of one. You don't know what, precisely,
Brianne is feeling. It seems to me that you have quite a lot on your
own plate right now in terms of managing your reactions. It's possibly
not the ideal time to worry about how Brianne manages hers.

My suggestion to you is that when Paul and what's-his-name....Tom??
react to this post with all sorts of snide comments, you ignore it.
It's what I'm likley to do. Forget 'em.

Cele

[Paul Fritz]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> > I think I'll do a little
> >research on google as to how many time other people have told looney just
> >how ridiculous she is.
>
> I just told Lorain she was weird to do this. If you do this, it's weird
and
> creepy. I think both of you have this weird and creepy thing going on and
I
> think you both should stop.

LOL There are far better things to do with my time........it was just
meant to point out how hypocritical and abusive looney is.


>
> Joelle

[Joelle]

>I suspect the amount of posting one ought to do on one's personal life
>is proportional to the amount of harassment one is capable of and
>willing to ***completely ignore.***

BINGO! Really Lorian, I have been concerned about how personal you get on a
public forum, where anyone, strangers, people you don't know, people you know
are hostile to you can say anything they want about it. And then you get
surprised and indignant when not everyone "supports" you in the way you want to
be supportive. But you both set your self up for abusive responses and then
you interprete non-abusive responsises as abusive. It's almost like you thrive
on it on some level and it's creepy.

I wasn't going to say anything, but now I will. Frankly from the way you
behave on this ng, I have no idea what to believe about what went on between
your son and you. And that's probably what is going on in your real life.
You've lost a lot of credibility and it's been your own doing. You are not a
victim.

Joelle

[Moon Shyne]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "turtledove" > wrote in message
> om...
> >
> > > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > > turtledove wrote:
> > >
> > > > Woah!! I know that you and Paul have issues between each other...but
> > > > that doesn't mean that everyone has issues with him.
> > >
> > > how you can defend him i do not understand. we keep having this same
> > > argument brianne. how can you be my friend and at the same time defend
> a
> > > man who consistently makes fun of my mental illness for god's sake? he
> > > followed me here from alt.child-support to harass me and just like all
> the
> > > others who have come here to troll me he has been welcomed by you and
> some
> > > other regulars instead of condemned so he stayed and got along with you
> > but
> > > persisted in his harassment of me. thanks a lot.
> > >
> > > And Cele posted once all about how sick Paul Fritz is to mock my mental
> > > disability and how he needed to stop doing that and she thought she had
> > the
> > > support of the group regulars...
> > >
> > > > And Paul talks about his daughter here on a regular basis.
> > >
> > > really? google.com tells otherwise. Of his 1,160 posts only 128
> include
> > > the word daughter and only 89 of those are about HIS daughter. 69 are
> > about
> > > lorain, 67 are about lorian, 61 are about loony, 16 are about looney, 14
> > are
> > > about feminitwit, 2 are about loon, 52 are about how he discredits my
> > > beliefs by saying it's just women's studies, 16 from feminism, and in 77
> > > posts he just refers to me simply as LL. That is over 300. There are
> > > probably more but I got tired of remembering all the names he has called
> > me.
> > >
> > > > Most of his posts are not directed at you because you haven't been
> > > > posting here regularly except for the past 2 weeks.
> > >
> > > I've been posting here for four years. He has been posting here for one
> > > year. I came here for support as a single parent, he came here to
> harass
> > me
> > > and Moonshyne and he followed us from alt.child-support to do just that.
> > > That is easy to prove, google tells all.
> > >
> > > oh, maybe I'll write a song about it and you can sing and dance to it
> > while
> > > Paul makes fun of it. LOL!
> > >
> > > Really Brianne, this is serious. Think about this. Why do you feel the
> > > need to keep the peace with men who you see continuously harassing other
> > > women?
> > >
> >
> > Deja vu
> > I've been here before with you
> > this time I simply don't have the mental faculties or patience to deal
> with
> > it anymore.
> >
> > In a nutshell: Paul and I are fine. You keep feeding Paul opportunities
> to
> > pick on you. In fact, when he doesn't You follow HIM around here until he
> > does by complaining to everyone about him or whoever else YOU deem unfit
> > according to YOUR standards.
> >
> > This is YOUR battle. One which you ALWAYS choose to get into when you are
> > emotionally raw. It's a pattern with you. When you feel horrible
> > emotionally, instead of ignorning posts that you should IGNORE, you
> attack.
> > over and over and over again.
> >
> > Google me this batgirl: instead of always finding the negative look for
> the
> > positive. YOu have YET to post this. Post how often you are told what an
> > amazing person you are. Post how many times I or anyone else has said
> that
> > you have the ability in yourself to succeed at anything. Post how many
> > times someone has given you GOOD no GREAT advice. Focus you energy on the
> > positive.
> >
> > *rant off*
>
> Some random thoughts
>
> As usual, looney is off in her own fantasy land. I think I'll do a little
> research on google as to how many time other people have told looney just
> how ridiculous she is..........I wonder if there is enough bandwidth to post
> all the comments from all those people?
>
> I won't waste my time looking up the little amount she posts about her son
> in comparison to whining 'abuse' or trying to moderate dicussion.
>
> Seems to me, looney is the abuser and 'stalker' with the amount of googling
> she done over me <snicker>
>
> As for following anyone into here.....first, anybody in the world can
> subscribe and post to unmoderated NGs.....second, the parental alienator amy
> lynn, aka moonshyne, aka stumpy, INVITED the world to revue her 'parenting'
> time agreement or what every it was that hse had posted her......a fact that
> looney fails to mention.
>
> Both looney and stumpy have a history of taking things offline, harassing
> people at work, posting names and address in NGs (including sex related
> ones) filing complaints with police/courts over other
> posters........................they are both the true ABUSERS

Any particular reason you're choosing to drag me into this?


>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > *b
> >
> >
>
>

[Betsy]

In news:53%Ta.122771$GL4.32819@rwcrnsc53,
> typed:
> Betsy wrote:
>> In news:F_oTa.121984$N7.17176@sccrnsc03,
>> > typed:
>>> Betsy wrote:
>>>> I suppose I shall discover in time, if this is going to continue.
>>>> One never knows when another may begin the change needed. I have
>>>> done what I can, and will let time tell the rest. I have learned,
>>>> the hard way, not to invest too much of myself 'saving' other
>>>> people. I share my story(ies) and what worked for me. Where I am
>>>> now, is miles from where I was 12 years ago. It took 12 years to
>>>> get here, but I am here. I can only act as a guide to those
>>>> willing to accept guidance. No more need be said. Or rather, I
>>>> will say no more.
>>>
>>> what are you talking to HIM for? I have already admitted to needing
>>> to change, Paul is in denial and clearly abusive calling me looney
>>> lorain on here all the time yet insisting that he is doing nothing
>>> wrong, don't talk to him about how hard you have it convincing me
>>> that I need to change. That ruins your credibility. Otherwise, I
>>> do take your words to heart and appreciate your efforts to help me
>>> and
>>> my son, and I love your .sig lines, they are funny.
>>
>> OK, first off, I am free to talk to whomever I choose. Whether you
>> like it or not, whether my son likes it or not, whether my mother
>> likes it or not. It's called free choice, and it's a God given gift.
>> Secondly, I am simply letting these folks know, that while they
>> disagree with me on whether or not you will change, I (being
>> relatively new here) am going to try. They are trying to dissuade
>> me, by telling me I am wasting my time. I am telling him (Paul) in
>> essence, it's my time, I choose how to spend it. If you find it
>> ruins my credibility, then I wasn't very credible in your eyes to
>> begin with. Sometimes things happen that you don't like, that don't
>> affect you directly, that aren't aimed at you, and you don't like
>> them. Get over it, move on, don't let it bother you. If I got upset
>> everytime on of my co-workers I respected spoke to one of my
>> co-workers I didn't like, I would spend my entired work day upset.
>> It's not worth it.
>>
>> Betsy
>
> Since you are relatively new perhaps you are not as aware as the rest
> of us that Paul Fritz has been harassing me for years now so of
> course I take offense that you would dignify him by talking to him as
> if he had integrity. If people hadn't welcomed him when he followed
> me over here from alt.child-support where he originated his campaign
> of hate against me he wouldn't still be here, calling me looney
> lorain and mocking my feminist ideals day in and day out. He rarely
> talks about his children as clearly that is not his main purpose
> here. Most of his posts are directed at me. I wasn't trying to
> control you so chill out. If he called you names and made fun of you
> all the time, I wouldn't talk to him like he was normal so I don't
> understand it when you talk to him like nothing is wrong.


I don't see anywhere in my post I accuse you of attempting to control me. I
know you CAN'T control me, so I would never insinuate such a thing. I was
merely pointing out I am free to speak to whomever I please. And from what
I have read here, Paul has shown integrity in some posts, not in others.
But the same can be said of most people here. I am not here to make
friends, but to get support. I understand that means I may not always like
what I hear. Getting a differing viewpoint from a father is going to be
helpful to me. To be honest, I don't care if you like it or not. I am
going to take advantage of the support here. That's what this group is
about. If I don't like what Paul or Tom, or any other guy here has to say,
it's OK because I don't have to read it. If they start harrassing or
abusing me, I will killfile them. Same goes for anyone else here. I am not
here to play petty games of "if you talk to him you must not like me" and
"if you talk to her, you are as bad as she is." Get over it. I surely
will.

Betsy
--
Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
ketchup.

[Lisa aka Surfer]

> In news:53%Ta.122771$GL4.32819@rwcrnsc53,
> > typed:


Lorain could really save herself some time if she standardized a template
for her posts. You see, it starts and continues the same, and has for so
very very long...................

*****Since you are relatively new perhaps you are not as aware as the rest
of us that < insert any number of names here> has been harassing me for
years now so of course I take offense that you would dignify him by talking
to him as if he had integrity.

@@SillySurfSpoiler: She will soon start posting about the private emails
that she is getting in support of this

***** If people hadn't welcomed him when he followed
me over here from <insert any number of newsgroups here>where he originated
his campaign of hate against me he wouldn't still be here, calling me
<insert, no wait, this name was always a fav..>looney lorain and mocking <
insert any number of things, there are just so many possibilities>day in and
day out.

*****He rarely talks about his children as clearly that is not his main
purpose here. Most of his posts are directed at me. I wasn't trying to
control you so chill out. If he called you names and made fun of you
all the time, I wouldn't talk to him like he was normal so I don't
understand it when you talk to him like nothing is wrong.
>
@@SillySurfSpoiler: There will soon be a brand new newbie that will come to
Looney's rescue. LOL,,,I had forgotten about Georgie, Tom. LOL

Have fun folks

Lisa


> I don't see anywhere in my post I accuse you of attempting to control me.
I
> know you CAN'T control me, so I would never insinuate such a thing. I was
> merely pointing out I am free to speak to whomever I please. And from
what
> I have read here, Paul has shown integrity in some posts, not in others.
> But the same can be said of most people here. I am not here to make
> friends, but to get support. I understand that means I may not always
like
> what I hear. Getting a differing viewpoint from a father is going to be
> helpful to me. To be honest, I don't care if you like it or not. I am
> going to take advantage of the support here. That's what this group is
> about. If I don't like what Paul or Tom, or any other guy here has to
say,
> it's OK because I don't have to read it. If they start harrassing or
> abusing me, I will killfile them. Same goes for anyone else here. I am
not
> here to play petty games of "if you talk to him you must not like me" and
> "if you talk to her, you are as bad as she is." Get over it. I surely
> will.
>
> Betsy
> --
> Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and good with
> ketchup.
>
>

[osote]

In news:53%Ta.122771$GL4.32819@rwcrnsc53,
typed:


Lorain could really save herself some time...

[/i][/color]

alt.support.single-parents or ASSP was a really dysfunctional news group. This discussion was in July 2003. In November 2003 a city bus ran a red light into my car and killed me. I had a NDE. I came back to life but my life was over. My son did go to foster care. I ended up getting very little medical care, lawyers wouldn't keep my case, so I moved away and started over. I just googled myself. All these years later I have gone to therapy, gone through women's support groups, gone to Al-Anon which is for family of alcoholics, and pursued numerous medical treatments. I've been to psychics, shamans, churches, everywhere. It is very hard to raise a child alone, way harder to do it poor. All of the hatred and shame that was heaped on me would have been better served had it been aimed at the men who abandoned me and my son, the men who abused me and my son, and all those women who took their side against me.

I wish people would fight the real enemy in this world. I wish people could have more compassion. I wish for more love in my life.

[mort03crow]

Best post
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[ahm12ed34]

Tiffany wrote:

Oh you have one of those dogs that get all excited and pees all over!

LOL. I am so lucky with this dog. Not only does she not pee all over, Lady
is a little tiny blonde cocker spaniel that was the runt of two other runts
so she is very small. And then we inherited this little chihuahua that
didn't like me, she was my son's dog but it looks like she's mine now too.
Sasha has been actually reaching for me and smiling up at me so I like her
better too. And I speak spanish, LOL. you quiero Taco Bell.... because it
tastes like dog food, he he. just kidding.

It is sad. There are no males role models for him to talk to? How
about something like that army guy that yells at the kids on tv talk
shows???

I don't know, I don't watch tv. We have digital cable and I don't know how
to turn on the tv. I feel like Ozzy Osborne, I stand there with the digital
remote and point it and click click click but nothing happens so I yell for
Sharon but alas, she does not come running to make everything all right.
Besides, I called and canceled the cable tv since my son doesn't live here
anymore.

The good men I have known like the one that I met at college but then had to
give up because I got pregnant and decided to keep my baby, well he has
remained a faithful friend all these years via mail and email and he has
gone on to become a computer software expert and sold his computer company
to Microsoft for $20 million and works directly for Bill Gates as a
technical advisor (when I screw up, I screw up royal) always remain role
models from a distance (that is what normal people do, they stay clear the
hell away from uh, unhealthy people.) He has a lovely wife and three
children and had a great conversation with my son recently where my son
discovered that he actually knew a lot more about computer hardware than my
millionaire software genius friend does and that boosted his self esteem and
gave him a desire to move to Seattle and pursue a future in computer
hardware there. I hope my son waits to finish high school to do that
though. The only other man that comes close to normal is my brother but I
forget I even have a brother because I never see him even though he lives
right here in town. I don't blame him, he escaped the crazy family and made
a life for himself and his wife and child, I try to leave him be. That's
it. I have friends at the bar I go to on Saturday nights but I don't
associate with them outside the bar at all. I have been abused all my life,
I don't take risks like letting people into my life or my home. And
obviously even after seven years of abstinence, despite my best bravado and
attempts at choosiness the guy I attracted turned out to be soo loving and
wonderful but is in fact a big time psycho, at least he has a history of
being violent to other people, I've been told by more than one source. At
least I've kept this guy away from my son and away from me as best I can but
geez. So no wonder my son is finding it hard to become a good man. They
only exist on tv.

Thats ok..... now he has no PC..... he will learn to think before he
reacts. Stay strong. All fails and he does something to your pc
again, you can always get online to check emails and stuff at the
library.

I can't live without a PC anymore than others can live without a car for
very long. And I can build one for next to nothing in about ten minutes.
But yeah, I hope my son is learning to think before he reacts and not just
getting madder and madder at me over there.



Never Bother about it mam,, its realli a common factor Nowadays.
nothing to be ashamed off.

[JuliaDahaka]

Monday I came home from school and turned on my computer and nothing
happened... it wouldn't boot. It was as if my son had killed my dog. For
you guys out there, imagine you had a prized Porsche that you cherished and
showed off and took care of every day and your son got mad at you, had been
mad at you for a lot of things that you just didn't know how to fix and you
came home one day and your son asked if he could drive it and you said no
and you came home and your Porsche was sitting in your drive way all crashed
up, how angry would you be? I couldn't breathe. I couldn't speak. I got
in my car and drove to his friend's house and he got in and I took him to
the woods near there and told him how he hurt me and he had no right, he had
crossed the last boundary, he no longer lived at my house and that when he
went and told everyone how crazy I was to be sure and tell them what he had
done. I did not hit him or touch him at all, he was not scared of me in any
way, (he is a foot taller than me and much faster and I can't run, I have
two compressed disks in my lower back) he was annoyed. I said I was going
to smash up his computer but he pointed out that his is worth way more than
mine and I'd just have to pay for it so what's the sense in that. He walked
back to the car before I did and tried to use his keys to get in but I got
in and went home and sat down and called 911 again. They put me through to
crisis and I told them again how much worse things had gotten and to please
find some place for my son to live because he could not live with me, he was
hurting me and I was having a hard time holding it together and I did not
want it to escalate either way. Do something! I have a counselor, he has a
counselor, it's going to take more than that. His constant abuse is
aggravating my PTSD and I don't want to be abusive to him. I've been
accused of having a victim mentality on here before, I think maybe that is
what has contributed to how he has learned to treat me so please don't beat
me up about that, certainly that will make things worse. So, the police
came to my house. I was surprised to see them as I thought I had handled it
pretty well, having gotten my point across without resorting to violence but
what I didn't know is that my son had told them that I tried to kill him.
He said this in front of my only friend, who knows me really well, but they
did not listen to her even though she is an adult, they listened to him,
presumably because although he is a minor he looks like a man. So now those
who have a history of picking on me for "having issues with men" can start
blaming this on me for that. Or maybe it's all Eve's fault, but I already
apologized for that at gunpoint when I was married to my psycho ex-husband
in front of my son when he was three, he remembers that better than I do,
I've gotten really good at dissociating (leaving your body when your body
and spirit find it necessary to take a break from each other for awhile).
And before you blame me for getting involved with abusive men, they are not
abusive at first, it is like a spider's web. Very beautiful and intricate
and silky soft and smooth but damned difficult to get out of and the harder
you try to get out of it the more stuck you are. Precious few escape. And
I have worked very hard at escaping, I attract psychos, they like my fiery
personality and my lovingness combination and I never know they are a psycho
until it's too late. I did abstain for all those years but I guess that was
too late. Well, this is the biggest pity party I've had in a long time.
Probably because I haven't had this much pain come to the surface in years.

So, the police, once again, reinforced my fear and loathing of them although
they were pretty kind and respectful when they went about it by NOT helping
me. I have learned repeatedly that the police do not help women who are
being abused by men, they only know how to punish and they are good at that
and they tend to identify with the man. I have heard contrary from others,
but this has been my experience time and time and time again regardless of
my behavior or attitude or what part of the country I am in. Because my son
lied to the police about how I reacted to him destroying my computer they
took me to involuntary psych unit. It has been a long time since I have
been treated with such indignity and it really brought out the abused child
in me to be abandoned and ignored which about sums up what it's like to be
locked up in the emergency room. It is completely useless as a health care
tool. You get no sleep, you get NO medication, they make you take off all
your clothes and wear a napkin (you might make a slingshot out of your
brassiere or something), and when you ask for help no one will listen to
you, because you are a mental patient. It brings back some very bad
memories. I had two angels. I am hypoglycemic and nearly fainted on my way
back from the bathroom because they also do not feed you on the psych ward
in the middle of the night and I also needed my pain meds but fat chance I
was even going to bother asking for that, much less my mental health meds,
ironic though that may be. But for some reason I have the survival skill of
tenacity, I asked every single nurse that walked by until one listened to me
and she got me some 7UP. She also picked up the bloody gauze that was on
the floor next to my bed that was there when I got there that I pointed out
was a hospital liability but none of the other nurses would listen to me
about it. (good thing I'm not THAT kind of crazy, sheesh, what if it had
AIDS on it or something?) The other one was the security guard watching me.
Being ignored really gets to me and I almost lost it and he came over and
said you brought that book with you (a physics book) he said he had no idea
what it was about but that if I filled my head with the book there would be
no room for my mother, my mother was NOT there. And then he proceeded to
watch over me, in a good way. I even fell asleep for awhile, in peace.

They released me to the care of my counselor's office where, thankfully,
they know me very well and they know I am not a violent psycho like my son
and the police were making me out to be and they made arrangements to
contact foster care on my behalf and let me go so I could get to class. A
taxi took me home and when I got there my car was gone. Boy was I mad, lol.
My son had run the gas out but at least it was all in one piece and my
friend brought it to me and I went to school and tried to fake normal,
that's like trying to pretend that you are not on fire. Who is this child
and where is my real son? How do I get him back? Why won't the system stop
screwing around and help us? Now what do I do?


I'm sorry that you have to go through this. I don't know if foster care can help. There are other ways to help him, example, Therapeutic boarding schools (http://www.atriskyouthprograms.com/) that will cater to your son's needs. He needs to be under the care of people that knows how to handle this kind of situation.