What's fair with my partner?

[Rhonda]

I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
support...(just a little background info)

I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.

My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
every evening throughout the week here.

Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
just won't eat here.

Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
understands and appreciates what I do for him.

I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
before and nothing has changed.

I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
for money even before his first day at work).

Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
time.

[Tiffany]

Rhonda > wrote in message
om...
> I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
> support...(just a little background info)
>
> I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
> but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
> mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
> always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
> only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.
>
> My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
> him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
> finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
> emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
> agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
> business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
> business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
> did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
> course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
> partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
> very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
> every evening throughout the week here.
>
> Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
> understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
> we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
> the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
> he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
> here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
> fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
> just won't eat here.
>
> Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
> mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
> like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
> tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
> occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
> himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
> seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
> bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
> of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
> this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
> thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
> making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
> book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
> so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
> computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
> appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
> implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
> more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
> told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
> me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
> understands and appreciates what I do for him.
>
> I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
> appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
> granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
> time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
> my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
> him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
> before and nothing has changed.
>
> I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
> bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
> deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
> be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
> information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
> almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
> wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
> incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
> for money even before his first day at work).
>
> Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
> time.

If you don't feel like he is contributing like he should then maybe you
should tell him not to come over so much. Sounds like he is taking advantage
of you in some ways. Tell him if he is paying $400 a month for a tiny room,
maybe he should spend more time in the tiny room. Seems like mom has some
sort of weird influence over him. Why is he paying so much for just a room
and some food? I don't know where you live but it seems for a bit more, he
could have his own place. Is this man a kid? Sounds as though he needs to
grow up. If you love him though, you have to admit to yourself that this is
probably the way he is and do you want to put up with it for a lifetime?
Plus if money is such an issue and you have 2 kids in school full time....
why not get a full time job? Oh... yes... one more thing that kind of stuck
out..... you said you were being discreet because of the kids? If the man is
staying over, I can guarantee your boys are old enough to figure out was is
going on. Unless they are away on the weekends with their dad, of course.

Think things through and I am sure all the answers will come to you.

Tiffany

[Joelle]

What's not fair is to expect an elephant to act like a giraff.

In other words, you knew what you were getting, a guy who wanted to be mothered
and taken care of. I don't know why you thought that would change. It's not
going to change. If its not what you want, don't take it personally and be
hurt. Look elsewhere for what you want.

Joelle

[CME]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On 11 Oct 2003 00:26:48 -0700, (Rhonda)
> >I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
> >support...(just a little background info)
> >
> >I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
> >but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
> >mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
> >always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
> >only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.
> >
> >My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
> >him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
> >finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
> >emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
> >agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
> >business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
> >business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
> >did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
> >course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
> >partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
> >very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
> >every evening throughout the week here.
> >
> >Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
> >understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
> >we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
> >the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
> >he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
> >here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
> >fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
> >just won't eat here.
> >
> >Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
> >mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
> >like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
> >tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
> >occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
> >himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
> >seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
> >bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
> >of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
> >this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
> >thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
> >making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
> >book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
> >so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
> >computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
> >appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
> >implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
> >more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
> >told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
> >me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
> >understands and appreciates what I do for him.
> >
> >I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
> >appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
> >granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
> >time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
> >my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
> >him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
> >before and nothing has changed.
> >
> >I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
> >bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
> >deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
> >be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
> >information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
> >almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
> >wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
> >incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
> >for money even before his first day at work).
> >
> >Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
> >time.
>
> Get out, get out fast. You don't need another child.
>
> 'Kate
>

Yep, I agree with you there Kate.

Christine

[Rhonda]

Hi. Thanks for your responses. I will add, however, that my partner,
for whatever reason, seems to need guidance in certain areas regarding
the way he sometimes conducts himself. I know, based on the type of
person he is that he means well but sometimes gets lost and makes
mistakes. Although he's flexible and willing to learn. I'm good at
expressing how I feel. I never hold back and I ask for what it is that
I want and expect. He'll usually end up abiding by my wishes because
he sees my point. I told him that I need him to work towards
recognizing things for himself. He should have known, by himself,
that it would have been appropriate, for instance, to offer to pay for
the entertainment book.

All my friends like him and he seems to be an easy person to like. In
some ways, unfortunately, he does have some maturing to do and that's
the difficulty I have. It's a hard call. There are a lot of assholes
out there, from my experience. It's tough to meet a sincere person
and he IS very sincere.
Maybe I made my situation appear too black and white because I was
feeling frustrated...but it isn't....I feel that my partner has a lot
of good qualities.

After discussing this issue further, he was telling me that he should
give me some money too for staying on weekends. I told him that I
wouldn't feel comfortable taking money from him but that I'd rather he
help by purchasing things or buying dinner for us on occasion just to
show his appreciation. Does this seem reasonable or do you think I
should have accepted his offer of money?

As for what he gives his mother, that's another issue. He will
probably try and negotiate with her but it's a tough call because,
although she told him that she never expects the money back from when
he stayed for free, the reality is that he did stay for free for so
long. And, of course, on the other hand, I need to be treates just as
fairly.

This'll take some work. I do hope it works out. I don't want to dump
him.

Anymore feedback?
Thanks for all your responses

(Rhonda) wrote in message >...
> I'm a single parent who owns my own home but receives no child
> support...(just a little background info)
>
> I've been seeing a man for about 15 months now who is also separated
> but has no children. When I met him, he had been living with his
> mother and going back to school to try and upgrade his skills. I
> always felt that, although he doesn't have to be well to do, I would
> only involve myself with a man who can stand on his own two feet.
>
> My partner is a really good person so I decided to take a chance on
> him. After he finished school, it took several months to a year to
> finally find a job. In the meantime, I've been there for him
> emotionally through the ups and downs of joblessness and through the
> agony of kidney stones. I've been there to encourage him through
> business ideas and I worked hours to set up a webpage for him,
> business cards, a brochure and presentation material for a workshop he
> did (I'm good with the computer). I've been there for him, but, of
> course, he's been there for me too and I don't ever forget that. My
> partner started staying with me on weekends quite some time ago (We're
> very disreet in front of my boys -13 and almost 16), and he spends
> every evening throughout the week here.
>
> Throughout the period of time where he didn't have a job, I felt I was
> understanding, not expecting wining and dining and the like. However,
> we did go out sometimes and most of the time I allowed him to pay for
> the both of us, with some exceptions. There have been many times that
> he's been here around dinner time and he really doesn't like to eat
> here....but I encouraged him to share in the meals at times to make it
> fair. I usually have to remind him at times, but most of the time, he
> just won't eat here.
>
> Anyway, he finally got a job which he starts this coming week and his
> mother, whom he still lives with, pounced on him about the money she'd
> like him to pay her right away.(They agreed on $400 per month for a
> tiny room, condo parking spot and food). Anyway, I've, on several
> occasions, encouraged him to provide a dinner here or there for
> himself and my family (instead of paying in a restaurant)but he really
> seems to need to be prodded to do this. Anyway, last September I had
> bought an entertainment book which we used quite a bit and saved a lot
> of money. So, I was hinting around to him to help pay for the book
> this year....but I really wanted him to offer to pay for the whole
> thing considering he'll be working now, making almost double what I'm
> making (I only work part-time). He was hesitant to help pay for the
> book, saying that he's the one who pays for meals. This just hurt me
> so much. He comes here and uses my soap, shampoo, toothpaste, shower,
> computer, tv, telephone, a little food and drink etc. I just want
> appreciation and small gestures to let me know that he understands the
> implication of staying with me 2 nights out of seven and spending way
> more time throughout the evening with me than with anyone else. I
> told him that it would be nice if he would just pick up a shampoo for
> me....or toothpaste...etc on the occasion to let me know that he
> understands and appreciates what I do for him.
>
> I told him how I felt but I still feel bad because he really seems to
> appreciate his mother and I feel that he's sort of been taking me for
> granted without realizing it. He really does spend so much of his
> time here. It's hard for me because it's a fine line between sharing
> my feelings and throwing back in his face everything that I provide
> him with. Anyway, he seemed to understand, but he's seemed that way
> before and nothing has changed.
>
> I'd like some opinions on what you think would be fair. I have big
> bills and, although I don't expect favours, I just want what I
> deserve. Oh, and what he's paying his mother for rent....Should that
> be kept secret from me? We've disclosed a lot of financial
> information with one another but not everything....I really do feel
> almost married to him without living together permanently. (I also
> wish that his mother would have given some acknowledgement to the
> incredible amount of time he spends with me when she pounced on him
> for money even before his first day at work).
>
> Thanks for sharing your opinions with me. I really do appreciate your
> time.

[Joelle]

>Hi. Thanks for your responses. I will add, however, that my partner,
>for whatever reason, seems to need guidance in certain areas regarding
>the way he sometimes conducts himself.

Do you realize how ridiculis that sounds? That's not a relationship between
two adults, that's a parent child relationship. Sounds pretty sick to me.

Joelle

[Rhonda]

(Joelle) wrote in message >...
> >Hi. Thanks for your responses. I will add, however, that my partner,
> >for whatever reason, seems to need guidance in certain areas regarding
> >the way he sometimes conducts himself.
>
> Do you realize how ridiculis that sounds? That's not a relationship between
> two adults, that's a parent child relationship. Sounds pretty sick to me.
>
> Joelle

Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point. I know
that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
it is that you expect. The use of the word "train" is facetious but
you get the gist. When I've talked to different women about some of
my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
of the same issues.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have to say a word and we'd have all
that we want from our relationship. In some ways, for whatever
reason, my partner could use a little refining but you'd never know it
if you met him. You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
personable, loves people and loves to laugh. On the other hand, I
have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
instance). I've been in and out of one relationship and I want to
make sure that I get what I want and need from this one.

The difference between what it would take to make me want to "dump
him" versus to "keep him" is that I know that he is always willing to
hear me out and make changes. After talking about all of this, and
even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me
out with certain things, like groceries and maybe a cleaning lady once
a month....and, believe me, I'll hold him to it if he forgets. He
realized that he wasn't thinking clearly. As for his mother, it seems
that she is concerned about her retirement and his help will really
help her out...even though it will be temporary. They agreed on an
amount close to the original and, for Toronto, that's as inexpensive
as he'll ever get.

I'm not looking for a profit from him. I'm just looking for fairness
and, if he forgets or lets it slip, I'll keep him on his toes.

As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
in underwear. Also, I have a couch in my bedroom and, if they come
into my room, they find my partner on the couch. It isn't because I
think they're stupid. Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door. Did you ever
think about what your parents were doing in their bedroom? We do it
out of respect. We don't flaunt anything and my kids are very
comfortable after knowing my partner for over a year.

As for the part-time work which was a question, I do what I feel I can
handle. It's tight for me, but I manage. My parents are deceased and
I have no family. I'm completely on my own and it gets pretty busy
being a single parent without any family support. I do my best.

I was frustrated when I wrote the first letter and I was looking for
advice on how to handle the situation. What is fair for me to ask for
and expect? He talked about money and I just don't feel comfortable
taking cash so I mentioned that he can help me out in other ways like
buying things I need or taking us all out for dinner.

He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out. If it
took Bill Gates several versions to get Windows right and it's still
not perfect, then why should something as complicated as a human being
be any different? ;)

Any more feedback is welcome.
Thanks again and sorry for being so long winded. :)
Rhonda

[Joelle]

>Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
>that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point

Yea and my experience is that women who think they can change men end up
bitterly disappointed and surprised that an elephant never did turn into a
giraff.

> I know
>that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
>expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
>it is that you expect.

Of course and when those non-negotiable expectations (we all have to give and
take and some expectations may need to be negotiated) are not met you LOOK
ELSEWHERE - do not expect a man - or anyone to be someone they are not to meet
your expectations. It's unfair to him and you end up taking it personally and
being hurt.

>When I've talked to different women about some of
>my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
>of the same issues.

BECAUSE THEY ARE DATING THE WRONG MEN!

Just because most of the women you know are doing this does not mean it is a
good and normal thing. This is a thing women do that cause them pain. They
pick the wrong man and then think they can change him. They get so desperate
that they will never meet a suitable man that they grab onto the first "okay"
man (sometimes he's not even okay) and then try to make him something he's not,
and when he doesn't change- he's a jerk and they are hurt because he remained
who he always was.

>You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
>personable, loves people and loves to laugh.

Actually I tend to be suspicious of those "charming" types.

>I
>have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
>weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
>thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
>instance).

Okay you like to nag. He seems to enjoy being nagged. That's what you signed
up for. So stop bitching about it. You are never going to stop having to nag
him. That's who he is. Either accept it or get out. But stop taking it
personally that he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE. That's my point. Put up or shut up
or get out.

>After talking about all of this, and
>even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me

You don't think it's bizarre that you two are arranging your relationship based
on advice from strangers on the internet?

>As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
>what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
>in underwear.

Well I'm not the one that brought up the sleeping arrangements but since you
brought it up, I think you are giving a horrible example to your children by
bringing a man with whom you have no committment into your house and forcing
them to live with them. And you are kidding yourself if you think they don't
know exactly what is going on.


>Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
>their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door.

Yarite. Whatever rationalization you make to make it allright in your mind.
Because as long as you get a sex life, the kids will be fine.

>He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out.

Love is accepting a person's glitches. Nobody's perfect. Love is not changing
and ironing out your loved one. Love is accepting and being accepted, glitches
and all. As long as you think you can iron him out, you will never be happy,
and if you continue to think your men need to be changed, you will subject your
children to a stream of "good men with glitches" in and out of their home.

Joelle

[Paul Fritz]

Darn it Joelle,
I agree with every word you said.

The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and 'women'
and it would be just as valid :-)

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
> >that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point
>
> Yea and my experience is that women who think they can change men end up
> bitterly disappointed and surprised that an elephant never did turn into a
> giraff.
>
> > I know
> >that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
> >expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
> >it is that you expect.
>
> Of course and when those non-negotiable expectations (we all have to give
and
> take and some expectations may need to be negotiated) are not met you LOOK
> ELSEWHERE - do not expect a man - or anyone to be someone they are not to
meet
> your expectations. It's unfair to him and you end up taking it personally
and
> being hurt.
>
> >When I've talked to different women about some of
> >my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
> >of the same issues.
>
> BECAUSE THEY ARE DATING THE WRONG MEN!
>
> Just because most of the women you know are doing this does not mean it is
a
> good and normal thing. This is a thing women do that cause them pain.
They
> pick the wrong man and then think they can change him. They get so
desperate
> that they will never meet a suitable man that they grab onto the first
"okay"
> man (sometimes he's not even okay) and then try to make him something he's
not,
> and when he doesn't change- he's a jerk and they are hurt because he
remained
> who he always was.
>
> >You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
> >personable, loves people and loves to laugh.
>
> Actually I tend to be suspicious of those "charming" types.
>
> >I
> >have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
> >weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
> >thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
> >instance).
>
> Okay you like to nag. He seems to enjoy being nagged. That's what you
signed
> up for. So stop bitching about it. You are never going to stop having to
nag
> him. That's who he is. Either accept it or get out. But stop taking it
> personally that he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE. That's my point. Put up or
shut up
> or get out.
>
> >After talking about all of this, and
> >even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me
>
> You don't think it's bizarre that you two are arranging your relationship
based
> on advice from strangers on the internet?
>
> >As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
> >what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
> >in underwear.
>
> Well I'm not the one that brought up the sleeping arrangements but since
you
> brought it up, I think you are giving a horrible example to your children
by
> bringing a man with whom you have no committment into your house and
forcing
> them to live with them. And you are kidding yourself if you think they
don't
> know exactly what is going on.
>
>
> >Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
> >their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door.
>
> Yarite. Whatever rationalization you make to make it allright in your
mind.
> Because as long as you get a sex life, the kids will be fine.
>
> >He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out.
>
> Love is accepting a person's glitches. Nobody's perfect. Love is not
changing
> and ironing out your loved one. Love is accepting and being accepted,
glitches
> and all. As long as you think you can iron him out, you will never be
happy,
> and if you continue to think your men need to be changed, you will subject
your
> children to a stream of "good men with glitches" in and out of their home.
>
> Joelle

[Tiffany]

Paul Fritz > wrote in message
...
> Darn it Joelle,
> I agree with every word you said.
>
> The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
'women'
> and it would be just as valid :-)
>


Oh you think so do you? lol

T

[Joelle]

>The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and 'women'
>and it would be just as valid :-)

Well maybe, but my experience is that women are worse than men when it comes to
trying "train" their man. As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be a lot
easier to satisfy :-)

Joelle

[Paul Fritz]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
'women'
> >and it would be just as valid :-)
>
> Well maybe, but my experience is that women are worse than men when it
comes to
> trying "train" their man. As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be
a lot
> easier to satisfy :-)
>
> Joelle

And beer and I'll agree LOL

[Paul Fritz]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> Paul Fritz > wrote in message
> ...
> > Darn it Joelle,
> > I agree with every word you said.
> >
> > The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
> 'women'
> > and it would be just as valid :-)
> >
>
>
> Oh you think so do you? lol

Yeah, I think men can get desperate and choose "less then perfect" as well,
and figure she'll adapt and it would be equally damaging for a man to bring
a woman into the house for 'sleep overs' with the kids there.


>
> T
>
>

[Rhonda]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message >...


Oh, I can see, as far as you're concerned, I'm climbing further and
further into my hole of deception.

I'm responding with hesitance because the opinions are already there,
somewhat strongly, I might add. I feel like I'm putting myself into a
position of defense.....but I'm compelled, again, to respond.

Do you not think that it's possible to work with a relationship
towards understanding each other's needs, desires and expectations?
Can it not be so much about changing the person him or herself, but at
working towards what both partners need? A relationship is give and
take and learning to understand each other. A relationship is never
easy. It involves work to reap the rewards....and NO, sex is not the
reward I'm speaking of. Sex is a natural extension of a relationship
but not the end all and be all.

> > >Yeah, well, maybe so, but it seems that every woman I talk to feels
> > >that she's had to "train" the guy in her life at some point
> >
> > Yea and my experience is that women who think they can change men end up
> > bitterly disappointed and surprised that an elephant never did turn into a
> > giraff.
> >

Not necessarily so. The friends I've spoken to have actually worked
towards a better relationship through communication of their wants and
needs and expectations. And, by the way, it should work both ways.


> > > I know
> > >that sounds crazy, but the reality is that if you have certain
> > >expectations in a relationship, you have to let your partner know what
> > >it is that you expect.
> >
> > Of course and when those non-negotiable expectations (we all have to give
> and
> > take and some expectations may need to be negotiated) are not met you LOOK
> > ELSEWHERE - do not expect a man - or anyone to be someone they are not to
> meet
> > your expectations. It's unfair to him and you end up taking it personally
> and
> > being hurt.
> >

Well, if the non-negotiables can't be negotiated, then the couple is
at laugerheads and the relationship has to end. A relationship is
about give and take and compromise...as long as we don't compromise
the very person that we are. After 15 months, we're still
experiencing issues and I suppose, in every relationship, stuff always
crops up now and again. Whoever expects otherwise is unrealistic. In
most cases, one person feels more strongly about an issue than
another. If both partners value the relationship, then a compromise
can be made. At times one will give a little and at others, the other
will give. If both are too stubborn and selfish, then they shouldn't
or aren't even capable of being in a relationship. Just because a
partner compromises with his partner doesn't necessarily mean he or
she is being someone other than him or herself.


> > >When I've talked to different women about some of
> > >my frustrations with my partner at times, they said that they had some
> > >of the same issues.
> >
> > BECAUSE THEY ARE DATING THE WRONG MEN!
> >

Really? So you think that in a healthy relationship, there are no
frustrations? You think that in a healthy relationship there are no
conflicts to be ironed out between mutual respect, discussion and
compromise? I'd love to live on your planet.

> > Just because most of the women you know are doing this does not mean it is
> a
> > good and normal thing. This is a thing women do that cause them pain.
> They
> > pick the wrong man and then think they can change him. They get so
> desperate
> > that they will never meet a suitable man that they grab onto the first
> "okay"
> > man (sometimes he's not even okay) and then try to make him something he's
> not,
> > and when he doesn't change- he's a jerk and they are hurt because he
> remained
> > who he always was.
> >

Oh, so then if there are conflicts and confrontations, he must be the
wrong man? The people you are talking about are both too stubborn to
talk through things, work through things with open communication.
That's what it comes down to. I've dated a lot before meeting my
current partner....some were jerks, and some were nice enough but not
what I was looking for. I didn't just grab onto this one. A lot of
thought went into it beforehand. If you think that you can foresee
every issue that's going to arise in a relationship, I'd have to
disagree. It takes a long time to figure out all the workings of a
relationship and it takes really good communication, understanding and
motivation to keep it going. And, yes, sometimes there is doubt and
frustration, feelings of distance and closeness. Anyone who thinks
otherwise, well, good luck.


> > >You'd instantly take a liking to him. He's
> > >personable, loves people and loves to laugh.
> >
> > Actually I tend to be suspicious of those "charming" types.

Would you slot everybody with the characteristics of "personable,
loves people and loves to laugh" as those "charming" types? Have you
been hurt a lot? After being shafted around by assholes enough times,
anybody would put up the armour. There's a middle ground between
being naive and losing all trust in mankind. I haven't hardened to
that degree yet. I've been through enough life experience to roll
with the punches and still have a little room left for faith in my
heart. Oh, and if you think that I'm referring to being shafted
around by a lot of assholes because of poor judgement in my life
experiences, actually, I'm not. I was referring to my one separation
after 15 years but moreso, after the loss of both of my parents.
Those kinds of life experiences have actually built strength of
character within me and have not instilled a bitterness and lack of
faith in the future.


> >
> > >I
> > >have to remind him that it costs ME money when he stays at my house on
> > >weekends, that I want him to pay for certain things and put more
> > >thought into certain things (like birthday celebrations, for
> > >instance).
> >
> > Okay you like to nag. He seems to enjoy being nagged. That's what you
> signed
> > up for. So stop bitching about it. You are never going to stop having to
> nag
> > him. That's who he is. Either accept it or get out. But stop taking it
> > personally that he is NOT GOING TO CHANGE. That's my point. Put up or
> shut up
> > or get out.

Hmmm...actually, I've never been referred to as a nag by my ex, my
kids or my partner. However, I do assert myself at certain times. I
WANT this relationship to work....not by changing who he is, but by
having him recognize what I need. I wouldn't know if my partner
enjoys being nagged. I don't believe I've ever met anybody who does.
Furthermore, I may have sounded like I was bitching in my first letter
because I was upset, but I don't believe that my successive letters
demonstrated bitching at all. Do you think that this discussion is
"bitching"? Are you insinuating that I signed up on this newsgroup to
nag?

> > >After talking about all of this, and
> > >even sharing the letters I've received here, he's agreed to help me
> >
> > You don't think it's bizarre that you two are arranging your relationship
> based
> > on advice from strangers on the internet?

Is that the way you see it? Do you think that this discussion began
and ended with this newsgroup? If it had, I would have already dumped
him. Did you not, perhaps, think about the fact that relationships
are about loyalty and sharing? He's the third party here and I wasn't
about to keep this from him. I told him I wrote the letter before I
got any responses. I was frustrated and sometimes I question
myself...Am I justified in my feelings or is it just that my emotions
sometimes get in the way. It's about being introspective and self
evaluating....so I came to a third party. Doesn't mean I have to
agree whole-heartedly....just means I receive other points of view.
This communication with the newsgroup was about ME and MY feelings.

> > >As for the discretion with my kids, I realize they aren't stupid and
> > >what I meant was that we always sleep in clothes and never walk around
> > >in underwear.
> >
> > Well I'm not the one that brought up the sleeping arrangements but since
> you
> > brought it up, I think you are giving a horrible example to your children
> by
> > bringing a man with whom you have no committment into your house and
> forcing
> > them to live with them. And you are kidding yourself if you think they
> don't
> > know exactly what is going on.

This man and I have been together every day for the past 15 months.
Physical closeness isn't taboo! Do you think that teaching your
children about sex is pretending that it doesn't exist??? You talk
about "FORCING" them to live with him. Is that the way you see
people? Actually, although my older son is usually indifferent, being
almost 16, my younger son really gets along well with him and enjoys
when he's there. In the beginning, we were very careful not to behave
in ways that were offensive to my kids. In the beginning, I wouldn't
even let him come into my driveway to pick me up. The first time my
younger son saw me lean against my partner on the couch (we were
sitting up), he practically freaked out. I knew he wasn't ready....so
I toned even that much down. Now he can see us hug while he's
standing right there and I feel good about that. He's seeing a warmth
in a man and a woman which he didn't experience with his mother and
father. This is a boy who is very affectionate and loving and
sensitive...and the older one, who has always been less demonstrative,
loves when I approach him and hug him. We all need that. So,
horrible that my partner is here? Not in my books. I'm not a
"flavour of the month" kind of woman. If I gave up on relationships
so fast because of the conflicts that arise here and there, you'd have
a point. I am the type of person, on the other hand, who takes great
care in working things through....WITHOUT having to compromise the
person that I am with all my needs, hopes and desires.


> > >Honestly, I don't think that the first thing on
> > >their mind is what's going on behind my bedroom door.
> >
> > Yarite. Whatever rationalization you make to make it allright in your
> mind.
> > Because as long as you get a sex life, the kids will be fine.

Sounds to me like you could use a sex life!!! I don't know about you,
but when I was a kid, I certainly wasn't obsessing over what was going
on behind my parents' bedroom door. Oh, and if I had any idea of the
fact that they might be engaging in that horrible act, I suppose, I'd
be scarred for life? But that's different because they were my
parents, right? It seems to me that you're under the impression that
sex is more important to me than the emotional well being of my kids.
I resent that. When I first separated, I took all the measures to
ensure my kids emotional well being. I was told by a professional in
the field that I have all the skills that I need to be a good parent.
I teach my kids that relationships and physical intimacy are very
healthy in the right context. Sex isn't dirty or taboo. It's very
healthy when two people are mature and can make a responsible
decision. It's ignorance that causes all the problems with sexuality.
If you teach your kids that it's horrible and taboo, those are the
kids that will be all screwed up about the subject. You make it sound
as though I have a different man every month with your attitude and
that couldn't be further from the truth!!!!!


> >
> > >He's a good person with glitches that have to be smoothed out.
> >
> > Love is accepting a person's glitches. Nobody's perfect. Love is not
> changing
> > and ironing out your loved one. Love is accepting and being accepted,
> glitches
> > and all. As long as you think you can iron him out, you will never be
> happy,
> > and if you continue to think your men need to be changed, you will subject
> your
> > children to a stream of "good men with glitches" in and out of their home.
> >

I should clarify.....There are glitches in certain aspects of our
relationship. Excuse me for the lack in forethought before I strung
that sentence together. It was a thoughtless statement. Of course he
isn't perfect and neither am I. I do take the good with the bad but
that doesn't mean that I can't have certain needs met and he can't
have his needs met too. There will always be qualities in a person
that you like and some that you put up with. Personally, I sincerely
believe that the good qualities far outweigh the bad where my partner
is concerned.

Rhonda


> > Joelle

[Joelle]

>Do you not think that it's possible to work with a relationship
>towards understanding each other's needs, desires and expectations?

Yes, but that's not what we are talking about it, as much as you'd like to
obfiscate the obvious. You are living with a Mama's Boy and your initial post
was hurt that he was still acting like a mama's boy and people are trying to
tell you that he is what he is - and you can go off on all the high falootin
philisophical dissertations you want, but it doesn't change what you have.

>Can it not be so much about changing the person him or herself, but at
>working towards what both partners need

But if he needs a mama and you were that for him at first and now you are mad
because you want to change the rules, who is the one being unfair?

>Really? So you think that in a healthy relationship, there are no
>frustrations?

Could you like quote where I said that?
..

>You think that in a healthy relationship there are no
>conflicts to be ironed out between mutual respect, discussion and
>compromise? I'd love to live on your planet.

Well on my planet I don't write resumes and make web pages for the men I date.
I wouldn't even do that for my own son, cuz not only do I not want to date a
mama's boy, I don't want to raise a mama's boy. You are more than welcome to
live on my planet, but first you have to wake up and smell the coffee.


>Oh, so then if there are conflicts and confrontations, he must be the
>wrong man?

No, if he's a mama's boy and you don't want to deal with a mama's boy, he's the
wrong man.

>Would you slot everybody with the characteristics of "personable,
>loves people and loves to laugh" as those "charming" types?

No, but mama's boys with those characteristics tend to be "charming types"
That's how they suck you into taking care of them.

> Have you
>been hurt a lot?

Well you can't love without being hurt, but I think I learned enough from early
mistakes to avoid making the big mistakes that cuz the bigger pain.

>Hmmm...actually, I've never been referred to as a nag by my ex, my
>kids or my partner.

Well if you were telling me what to do as much as you are telling Mama's Boy
what to do I'd call you a nag. But you don't ever say that to your mama.
Especially if you enjoy her nagging.

>I wouldn't know if my partner
>enjoys being nagged.

Of course he enjoys it. He depends on it. It reminds him of his mother. You
remind him of his mother. That's the attraction.

> Are you insinuating that I signed up on this newsgroup to
>nag?

Maybe. Nagging's not all bad ya know. We need to do that for each other.You
do like to lecture I notice.

>Do you think that teaching your
>children about sex is pretending that it doesn't exist???

Do you think teaching children about sex means bringing your lover in to live
with them?

> You talk
>about "FORCING" them to live with him. Is that the way you see
>people?

No, I just recognize the powerless position of children in this situation.
They have no choice over who you drag into their home.

> my younger son really gets along well with him and enjoys
>when he's there.

Oh great. No wonder you are reluctant to consider this might not be an
appropriate relationship. You've got your kids dependent on someone who may or
may not stick around.

>Sounds to me like you could use a sex life!!!

Yup. Sex is the answer to everything.

>you're under the impression that
>sex is more important to me than the emotional well being of my kids.
>I resent that

Why on earth would you have an emotional reaction to a stranger's opinion of
you? Unless it hit a nerve of truth somewhere?

>I was told by a professional in
>the field that I have all the skills that I need to be a good parent.

You seem overly concerned with affirmation from other people. Does this
newsgroup think you are being fair (of course when the majority opinion was
dump the chump then you weren't as interested) - does a professional think you
are a good parent...

>Personally, I sincerely
>believe that the good qualities far outweigh the bad where my partner
>is concerned.

Okey dokey - everything's wonderful.

Joelle

[Rhonda]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message >...
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Paul Fritz > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Darn it Joelle,
> > > I agree with every word you said.
> > >
> > > The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
> 'women'
> > > and it would be just as valid :-)
> > >
> >
> >
> > Oh you think so do you? lol
>
> Yeah, I think men can get desperate and choose "less then perfect" as well,
> and figure she'll adapt and it would be equally damaging for a man to bring
> a woman into the house for 'sleep overs' with the kids there.
>

You all must be perfect people since you seem to think that it's
possible to find the "perfect" partner.

As for your idea of "sleepovers" being so damaging for the kids, do
you think that the only time this would be acceptable would be if the
kids saw you under the alter exchanging vows first? And if that's the
case, would you enforce that in your kids when they reach that stage?
And if you so choose to make the big decision to cohabit with your
partner (through marriage if that would be your inclination), would
you just pounce this on your kids suddenly without them having the
chance to slowly get used to the idea or would you wait until they too
get married....of course, as virgins, because any other way would be
horrifying.

[Rhonda]

(Joelle) wrote in message >...
> >The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and 'women'
> >and it would be just as valid :-)
>
> Well maybe, but my experience is that women are worse than men when it comes to
> trying "train" their man. As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be a lot
> easier to satisfy :-)
>
> Joelle


Is that the kind of man you've dated? Sounds pretty basic to
me....more like a dog. Oh, and "training", as mentioned in my post
was "facetious"...but, obviously, you took it literally, which would
make sense if the men you're used to only need sex to keep them
satisfied. Sounds like you've been involved in some pretty deep,
involved relationships - NOT. As for the beer, neither myself nor my
partner like beer very much so that logic doesn't work either.

[Paul Fritz]

Hear that swooshing sound? That is the gist of the thread passing far
over your head


"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...
> (Joelle) wrote in message
>...
> > >The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
'women'
> > >and it would be just as valid :-)
> >
> > Well maybe, but my experience is that women are worse than men when it
comes to
> > trying "train" their man. As long as they get enough sex, men seem to
be a lot
> > easier to satisfy :-)
> >
> > Joelle
>
>
> Is that the kind of man you've dated? Sounds pretty basic to
> me....more like a dog. Oh, and "training", as mentioned in my post
> was "facetious"...but, obviously, you took it literally, which would
> make sense if the men you're used to only need sex to keep them
> satisfied. Sounds like you've been involved in some pretty deep,
> involved relationships - NOT. As for the beer, neither myself nor my
> partner like beer very much so that logic doesn't work either.

[Paul Fritz]

"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...
> "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Paul Fritz > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Darn it Joelle,
> > > > I agree with every word you said.
> > > >
> > > > The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
> > 'women'
> > > > and it would be just as valid :-)
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Oh you think so do you? lol
> >
> > Yeah, I think men can get desperate and choose "less then perfect" as
well,
> > and figure she'll adapt and it would be equally damaging for a man to
bring
> > a woman into the house for 'sleep overs' with the kids there.
> >
>
> You all must be perfect people since you seem to think that it's
> possible to find the "perfect" partner.
>
> As for your idea of "sleepovers" being so damaging for the kids, do
> you think that the only time this would be acceptable would be if the
> kids saw you under the alter exchanging vows first? And if that's the
> case, would you enforce that in your kids when they reach that stage?
> And if you so choose to make the big decision to cohabit with your
> partner (through marriage if that would be your inclination), would
> you just pounce this on your kids suddenly without them having the
> chance to slowly get used to the idea or would you wait until they too
> get married....of course, as virgins, because any other way would be
> horrifying.

And another swooshing sound! And obviously, the guy sleeping over is not
the only person in the house damaging the kids.

[Joelle]

>You all must be perfect people since you seem to think that it's
>possible to find the "perfect" partner.

You are the one that wants the perfect partner and think you can change someone
into that. I'm saying accept a person with their imperfections and if you
can't accept them, look elsewhere.

I'd say your view of training a man into the perfect partner is the
perfectionist view.

Joelle

[Joelle]

>Sounds like you've been involved in some pretty deep,
>involved relationships - NOT.

I was married happily for 12 years. And yea, my husband was pretty easy to
please. And yea he was grateful for lots of sex. You find that unhealthy?

Joelle

[Rhonda]

Sounds like you're groping to me, Joelle, going on and on about
"Mama's Boy". I'll inform you that this is a man who was married for
almost 12 years and living in his own home. The only reason he moved
back home, TEMPORARILY, was to upgrade his skills by going back to
school for a 1 year course...a course which is considered
"fast-track", meaning it's usually a two year course...Doesn't sound
like a man who doesn't want to get on with his life to me, does it?

If you were reading carefully, you would have found that it wasn't a
resume that I wrote for him. He's the resume expert since he's a
qualified career consultant. I'm the computer expert and helped him
with his business materials. He mowed my lawn all summer...Does that
make me a "Daddy's girl"? Have you ever heard of give and take? Or
are you too selfish to offer help and support to your partner? It's a
two way street and it sounds to me like you're heading towards a dead
end in your relationships with that attitude.

(Joelle) wrote in message >...
> >Do you not think that it's possible to work with a relationship
> >towards understanding each other's needs, desires and expectations?
>
> Yes, but that's not what we are talking about it, as much as you'd like to
> obfiscate the obvious. You are living with a Mama's Boy and your initial post
> was hurt that he was still acting like a mama's boy and people are trying to
> tell you that he is what he is - and you can go off on all the high falootin
> philisophical dissertations you want, but it doesn't change what you have.
>
> >Can it not be so much about changing the person him or herself, but at
> >working towards what both partners need
>
> But if he needs a mama and you were that for him at first and now you are mad
> because you want to change the rules, who is the one being unfair?
>
> >Really? So you think that in a healthy relationship, there are no
> >frustrations?
>
> Could you like quote where I said that?
> .
>
> >You think that in a healthy relationship there are no
> >conflicts to be ironed out between mutual respect, discussion and
> >compromise? I'd love to live on your planet.
>
> Well on my planet I don't write resumes and make web pages for the men I date.
> I wouldn't even do that for my own son, cuz not only do I not want to date a
> mama's boy, I don't want to raise a mama's boy. You are more than welcome to
> live on my planet, but first you have to wake up and smell the coffee.
>
>
> >Oh, so then if there are conflicts and confrontations, he must be the
> >wrong man?
>
> No, if he's a mama's boy and you don't want to deal with a mama's boy, he's the
> wrong man.
>
> >Would you slot everybody with the characteristics of "personable,
> >loves people and loves to laugh" as those "charming" types?
>
> No, but mama's boys with those characteristics tend to be "charming types"
> That's how they suck you into taking care of them.
>
> > Have you
> >been hurt a lot?
>
> Well you can't love without being hurt, but I think I learned enough from early
> mistakes to avoid making the big mistakes that cuz the bigger pain.
>
> >Hmmm...actually, I've never been referred to as a nag by my ex, my
> >kids or my partner.
>
> Well if you were telling me what to do as much as you are telling Mama's Boy
> what to do I'd call you a nag. But you don't ever say that to your mama.
> Especially if you enjoy her nagging.
>
> >I wouldn't know if my partner
> >enjoys being nagged.
>
> Of course he enjoys it. He depends on it. It reminds him of his mother. You
> remind him of his mother. That's the attraction.
>
> > Are you insinuating that I signed up on this newsgroup to
> >nag?
>
> Maybe. Nagging's not all bad ya know. We need to do that for each other.You
> do like to lecture I notice.
>
> >Do you think that teaching your
> >children about sex is pretending that it doesn't exist???
>
> Do you think teaching children about sex means bringing your lover in to live
> with them?
>
> > You talk
> >about "FORCING" them to live with him. Is that the way you see
> >people?
>
> No, I just recognize the powerless position of children in this situation.
> They have no choice over who you drag into their home.
>
> > my younger son really gets along well with him and enjoys
> >when he's there.
>
> Oh great. No wonder you are reluctant to consider this might not be an
> appropriate relationship. You've got your kids dependent on someone who may or
> may not stick around.
>
> >Sounds to me like you could use a sex life!!!
>
> Yup. Sex is the answer to everything.
>
> >you're under the impression that
> >sex is more important to me than the emotional well being of my kids.
> >I resent that
>
> Why on earth would you have an emotional reaction to a stranger's opinion of
> you? Unless it hit a nerve of truth somewhere?
>
> >I was told by a professional in
> >the field that I have all the skills that I need to be a good parent.
>
> You seem overly concerned with affirmation from other people. Does this
> newsgroup think you are being fair (of course when the majority opinion was
> dump the chump then you weren't as interested) - does a professional think you
> are a good parent...
>
> >Personally, I sincerely
> >believe that the good qualities far outweigh the bad where my partner
> >is concerned.
>
> Okey dokey - everything's wonderful.
>
> Joelle

[Joelle]

>Doesn't sound
>like a man who doesn't want to get on with his life to me, does it?

Okay well then you have the perfect man. Everything's fine. You don't need
our input. Good for you.

> It's a
>two way street and it sounds to me like you're heading towards a dead
>end in your relationships with that attitude.

Well, I prefer not to be in a lot of "relationships" (Plural huh? Is that
your expectation) with men who need to be nagged, taken care of and "trained"
and if that makes me selfish, I can live with that.
I'm done, you asked, I answered. Frankly I think you just showed Mama's Boy a
bunch of posts saying to dump him and used that as leverage to scare him
temporarily into behaving...but I could be wrong. No skin off my nose...

Joelle

[Tiffany]

Rhonda > wrote in message
...
> Sounds like you're groping to me, Joelle, going on and on about
> "Mama's Boy". I'll inform you that this is a man who was married for
> almost 12 years and living in his own home. The only reason he moved
> back home, TEMPORARILY, was to upgrade his skills by going back to
> school for a 1 year course...a course which is considered
> "fast-track", meaning it's usually a two year course...Doesn't sound
> like a man who doesn't want to get on with his life to me, does it?
>
> If you were reading carefully, you would have found that it wasn't a
> resume that I wrote for him. He's the resume expert since he's a
> qualified career consultant. I'm the computer expert and helped him
> with his business materials. He mowed my lawn all summer...Does that
> make me a "Daddy's girl"? Have you ever heard of give and take? Or
> are you too selfish to offer help and support to your partner? It's a
> two way street and it sounds to me like you're heading towards a dead
> end in your relationships with that attitude.
>


As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does help you
out, just not monetary. If money is what is so important, I would again
suggest working more so that you have more money and it wouldn't be an issue
and voila.... problem is fixed. :)

Good luck with your relationship.

Tiff

[Joelle]

>As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does help you
>out, just not monetary. I

Yea funny how the story changed.

Joelle

[Rhonda]

(Joelle) wrote in message >...
> >As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does help you
> >out, just not monetary. I
>
> Yea funny how the story changed.
>
> Joelle


Joelle, in a message you had written in the past, you said that you
don't come here much anymore, except to get involved in a flame war.
Seems to me, you saw the opportunity and you seized it.

I'm glad that you've found a pastime that entertains you. For myself,
this was a place to communicate, not get flamed. You seem to pick out
snippets of a post to attack like a cat preying on a toy mouse,
instead of addressing the entire message.

You're right, you ARE a stranger so what you say should have no effect
on me. On the other hand, I'm a stranger to you, and so is my
partner. Somehow, you've deemed yourself psychologist and major
know-it-all. From one post, from an absolute stranger who was feeling
frustrated with the moment, you seem to feel you are the maven on
relationships. Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
him.

Now, get this, Joelle, it is not in MY nature to say anything that
mean and cold-hearted EVER to ANYONE....but somehow you seem to bring
it out in me, like perhaps you did to your late husband, only he
turned it inwards and it slowly killed him. Furthermore, I know it
won't bother you, it really doesn't make a bit of difference since I'm
a stranger who you seem to think you know so much about.

Do you think I'm quick to pass judgement? Welcome to a good, hard dose
of your own medicine, my dear. My purpose for my post was not to
manipulate my partner as you have guessed. Perhaps you aren't the
maven you think you are.

Oh, and Tiffany, thanks for your good wishes and advice. My partner
and I are actually working on this business together, with myself as
the partner offering computer services to clients....So, although I've
sacrificed a little financially when the going was rough with
separation and other stresses that were taking place, I am hopeful,
whether it be in this business or on my own to follow that path one
day. I'm also teaching nightschool one night a week which is a great
way for me to work on the skills that are important to achieve my
goals. My partner has also told me that he understands how I feel and
would like to help me out with things like groceries and such and
carry on with taking care of our entertainment costs.

By the way, Joelle, I'm not asking for your feedback on that last
paragraph or any other, for that matter. I'm sure you might have
something wise to say but, personally, I really couldn't give a flying
you-know-what about your opinions. You've demonstrated on numerous
occasions that you're way out in left field somewhere. But, if you
feel so compelled as to hone in on your little pastime, then enjoy and
whomever wants to enjoy your writing talents with horrendous spelling
errors (ie. giraff???), then go for it.

It's been a real pleasure. :)
Ciya. Rhonda

[rolly]

Hey iuf you get bored with this guy, I know a few 25 year olds who would be
willing to go for a free ride too
"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...
> (Joelle) wrote in message
>...
> > >As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does help
you
> > >out, just not monetary. I
> >
> > Yea funny how the story changed.
> >
> > Joelle
>
>
> Joelle, in a message you had written in the past, you said that you
> don't come here much anymore, except to get involved in a flame war.
> Seems to me, you saw the opportunity and you seized it.
>
> I'm glad that you've found a pastime that entertains you. For myself,
> this was a place to communicate, not get flamed. You seem to pick out
> snippets of a post to attack like a cat preying on a toy mouse,
> instead of addressing the entire message.
>
> You're right, you ARE a stranger so what you say should have no effect
> on me. On the other hand, I'm a stranger to you, and so is my
> partner. Somehow, you've deemed yourself psychologist and major
> know-it-all. From one post, from an absolute stranger who was feeling
> frustrated with the moment, you seem to feel you are the maven on
> relationships. Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
> harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
> the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
> sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
> him.
>
> Now, get this, Joelle, it is not in MY nature to say anything that
> mean and cold-hearted EVER to ANYONE....but somehow you seem to bring
> it out in me, like perhaps you did to your late husband, only he
> turned it inwards and it slowly killed him. Furthermore, I know it
> won't bother you, it really doesn't make a bit of difference since I'm
> a stranger who you seem to think you know so much about.
>
> Do you think I'm quick to pass judgement? Welcome to a good, hard dose
> of your own medicine, my dear. My purpose for my post was not to
> manipulate my partner as you have guessed. Perhaps you aren't the
> maven you think you are.
>
> Oh, and Tiffany, thanks for your good wishes and advice. My partner
> and I are actually working on this business together, with myself as
> the partner offering computer services to clients....So, although I've
> sacrificed a little financially when the going was rough with
> separation and other stresses that were taking place, I am hopeful,
> whether it be in this business or on my own to follow that path one
> day. I'm also teaching nightschool one night a week which is a great
> way for me to work on the skills that are important to achieve my
> goals. My partner has also told me that he understands how I feel and
> would like to help me out with things like groceries and such and
> carry on with taking care of our entertainment costs.
>
> By the way, Joelle, I'm not asking for your feedback on that last
> paragraph or any other, for that matter. I'm sure you might have
> something wise to say but, personally, I really couldn't give a flying
> you-know-what about your opinions. You've demonstrated on numerous
> occasions that you're way out in left field somewhere. But, if you
> feel so compelled as to hone in on your little pastime, then enjoy and
> whomever wants to enjoy your writing talents with horrendous spelling
> errors (ie. giraff???), then go for it.
>
> It's been a real pleasure. :)
> Ciya. Rhonda

[Paul Fritz]

Sooooooooooooooooooo typical

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does help
you
> >out, just not monetary. I
>
> Yea funny how the story changed.
>
> Joelle

[Joelle]

>Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
>harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
>the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
>sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
>him.

Now see, the only problem with that scenareo is that that I'm such a selfish
bitch I couldn't possibly feel any guilt for killing my husband.

>
>By the way, Joelle, I'm not asking for your feedback on that last
>paragraph or any other, for that matter. I'm sure you might have
>something wise to say but, personally, I really couldn't give a flying
>you-know-what about your opinions.
>
If that were true, you wouldn't have written the above.

Have a nice day.

Joelle

[Joelle]

>Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to mention
>a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
>wrong.

Woah. Is that you Kate? Not that you haven't hit the nail on the head...

Joelle

[Rhonda]

(Joelle) wrote in message >...
> >Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
> >harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
> >the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
> >sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
> >him.
>
> Now see, the only problem with that scenareo is that that I'm such a selfish
> bitch I couldn't possibly feel any guilt for killing my husband.
>


Hmmmmm....so in your books, Joelle, selfishness = psychopath, huh?
You really are one scary animal. Ummmm...now would that be an
elephant or a "giraff"? Or maybe a "snakke" or a "lizzard"? :)

[CME]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On 16 Oct 2003 18:59:44 -0700, (Rhonda)
> (Joelle) wrote in message
>...
> >> >As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does help
you
> >> >out, just not monetary. I
> >>
> >> Yea funny how the story changed.
> >>
> >> Joelle
> >
> >
> >Joelle, in a message you had written in the past, you said that you
> >don't come here much anymore, except to get involved in a flame war.
> >Seems to me, you saw the opportunity and you seized it.
> >
> >I'm glad that you've found a pastime that entertains you. For myself,
> >this was a place to communicate, not get flamed. You seem to pick out
> >snippets of a post to attack like a cat preying on a toy mouse,
> >instead of addressing the entire message.
> >
> >You're right, you ARE a stranger so what you say should have no effect
> >on me. On the other hand, I'm a stranger to you, and so is my
> >partner. Somehow, you've deemed yourself psychologist and major
> >know-it-all. From one post, from an absolute stranger who was feeling
> >frustrated with the moment, you seem to feel you are the maven on
> >relationships. Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
> >harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
> >the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
> >sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
> >him.
> >
> >Now, get this, Joelle, it is not in MY nature to say anything that
> >mean and cold-hearted EVER to ANYONE....but somehow you seem to bring
> >it out in me, like perhaps you did to your late husband, only he
> >turned it inwards and it slowly killed him. Furthermore, I know it
> >won't bother you, it really doesn't make a bit of difference since I'm
> >a stranger who you seem to think you know so much about.
> >
> >Do you think I'm quick to pass judgement? Welcome to a good, hard dose
> >of your own medicine, my dear. My purpose for my post was not to
> >manipulate my partner as you have guessed. Perhaps you aren't the
> >maven you think you are.
> >
> >Oh, and Tiffany, thanks for your good wishes and advice. My partner
> >and I are actually working on this business together, with myself as
> >the partner offering computer services to clients....So, although I've
> >sacrificed a little financially when the going was rough with
> >separation and other stresses that were taking place, I am hopeful,
> >whether it be in this business or on my own to follow that path one
> >day. I'm also teaching nightschool one night a week which is a great
> >way for me to work on the skills that are important to achieve my
> >goals. My partner has also told me that he understands how I feel and
> >would like to help me out with things like groceries and such and
> >carry on with taking care of our entertainment costs.
> >
> >By the way, Joelle, I'm not asking for your feedback on that last
> >paragraph or any other, for that matter. I'm sure you might have
> >something wise to say but, personally, I really couldn't give a flying
> >you-know-what about your opinions. You've demonstrated on numerous
> >occasions that you're way out in left field somewhere. But, if you
> >feel so compelled as to hone in on your little pastime, then enjoy and
> >whomever wants to enjoy your writing talents with horrendous spelling
> >errors (ie. giraff???), then go for it.
> >
> >It's been a real pleasure. :)
> >Ciya. Rhonda
>
> Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to mention
> a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> wrong.
>
> 'Kate
>

Holy crap Kate, I don't think I've ever heard you talk like that... have you
been following my example??? lol

I'm not touching this whole thread, and for good reason... yikes.

Christine

[Lisa aka Surfer]

"Rhonda" > wrote in message >
> Hmmmmm....so in your books, Joelle, selfishness = psychopath, huh?
> You really are one scary animal. Ummmm...now would that be an
> elephant or a "giraff"? Or maybe a "snakke" or a "lizzard"? :)

No, I think that would be .... bait......or maybe baitt /bayt/bate?

[Tiffany]

CME > wrote in message
news:nXZjb.35752$S_.2132@clgrps13...
>
> <'Kate> wrote in message
...
> > On 16 Oct 2003 18:59:44 -0700, (Rhonda)
> > (Joelle) wrote in message
> >...
> > >> >As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does
help
> you
> > >> >out, just not monetary. I
> > >>
> > >> Yea funny how the story changed.
> > >>
> > >> Joelle
> > >
> > >
> > >Joelle, in a message you had written in the past, you said that you
> > >don't come here much anymore, except to get involved in a flame war.
> > >Seems to me, you saw the opportunity and you seized it.
> > >
> > >I'm glad that you've found a pastime that entertains you. For myself,
> > >this was a place to communicate, not get flamed. You seem to pick out
> > >snippets of a post to attack like a cat preying on a toy mouse,
> > >instead of addressing the entire message.
> > >
> > >You're right, you ARE a stranger so what you say should have no effect
> > >on me. On the other hand, I'm a stranger to you, and so is my
> > >partner. Somehow, you've deemed yourself psychologist and major
> > >know-it-all. From one post, from an absolute stranger who was feeling
> > >frustrated with the moment, you seem to feel you are the maven on
> > >relationships. Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
> > >harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
> > >the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
> > >sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
> > >him.
> > >
> > >Now, get this, Joelle, it is not in MY nature to say anything that
> > >mean and cold-hearted EVER to ANYONE....but somehow you seem to bring
> > >it out in me, like perhaps you did to your late husband, only he
> > >turned it inwards and it slowly killed him. Furthermore, I know it
> > >won't bother you, it really doesn't make a bit of difference since I'm
> > >a stranger who you seem to think you know so much about.
> > >
> > >Do you think I'm quick to pass judgement? Welcome to a good, hard dose
> > >of your own medicine, my dear. My purpose for my post was not to
> > >manipulate my partner as you have guessed. Perhaps you aren't the
> > >maven you think you are.
> > >
> > >Oh, and Tiffany, thanks for your good wishes and advice. My partner
> > >and I are actually working on this business together, with myself as
> > >the partner offering computer services to clients....So, although I've
> > >sacrificed a little financially when the going was rough with
> > >separation and other stresses that were taking place, I am hopeful,
> > >whether it be in this business or on my own to follow that path one
> > >day. I'm also teaching nightschool one night a week which is a great
> > >way for me to work on the skills that are important to achieve my
> > >goals. My partner has also told me that he understands how I feel and
> > >would like to help me out with things like groceries and such and
> > >carry on with taking care of our entertainment costs.
> > >
> > >By the way, Joelle, I'm not asking for your feedback on that last
> > >paragraph or any other, for that matter. I'm sure you might have
> > >something wise to say but, personally, I really couldn't give a flying
> > >you-know-what about your opinions. You've demonstrated on numerous
> > >occasions that you're way out in left field somewhere. But, if you
> > >feel so compelled as to hone in on your little pastime, then enjoy and
> > >whomever wants to enjoy your writing talents with horrendous spelling
> > >errors (ie. giraff???), then go for it.
> > >
> > >It's been a real pleasure. :)
> > >Ciya. Rhonda
> >
> > Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to mention
> > a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> > wrong.
> >
> > 'Kate
> >
>
> Holy crap Kate, I don't think I've ever heard you talk like that... have
you
> been following my example??? lol
>
> I'm not touching this whole thread, and for good reason... yikes.
>
> Christine
>
>

Good idea.... its become a insulting match anyways. Why does that happen so
much in here? lol

T

[CME]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 22:21:07 GMT, "CME" >
> >
> ><'Kate> wrote in message
...
> >> On 16 Oct 2003 18:59:44 -0700, (Rhonda)
> >> (Joelle) wrote in message
> >...
> >> >> >As these new things come to light, I would say that this man does
help
> >you
> >> >> >out, just not monetary. I
> >> >>
> >> >> Yea funny how the story changed.
> >> >>
> >> >> Joelle
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Joelle, in a message you had written in the past, you said that you
> >> >don't come here much anymore, except to get involved in a flame war.
> >> >Seems to me, you saw the opportunity and you seized it.
> >> >
> >> >I'm glad that you've found a pastime that entertains you. For myself,
> >> >this was a place to communicate, not get flamed. You seem to pick out
> >> >snippets of a post to attack like a cat preying on a toy mouse,
> >> >instead of addressing the entire message.
> >> >
> >> >You're right, you ARE a stranger so what you say should have no effect
> >> >on me. On the other hand, I'm a stranger to you, and so is my
> >> >partner. Somehow, you've deemed yourself psychologist and major
> >> >know-it-all. From one post, from an absolute stranger who was feeling
> >> >frustrated with the moment, you seem to feel you are the maven on
> >> >relationships. Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
> >> >harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
> >> >the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
> >> >sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
> >> >him.
> >> >
> >> >Now, get this, Joelle, it is not in MY nature to say anything that
> >> >mean and cold-hearted EVER to ANYONE....but somehow you seem to bring
> >> >it out in me, like perhaps you did to your late husband, only he
> >> >turned it inwards and it slowly killed him. Furthermore, I know it
> >> >won't bother you, it really doesn't make a bit of difference since I'm
> >> >a stranger who you seem to think you know so much about.
> >> >
> >> >Do you think I'm quick to pass judgement? Welcome to a good, hard dose
> >> >of your own medicine, my dear. My purpose for my post was not to
> >> >manipulate my partner as you have guessed. Perhaps you aren't the
> >> >maven you think you are.
> >> >
> >> >Oh, and Tiffany, thanks for your good wishes and advice. My partner
> >> >and I are actually working on this business together, with myself as
> >> >the partner offering computer services to clients....So, although I've
> >> >sacrificed a little financially when the going was rough with
> >> >separation and other stresses that were taking place, I am hopeful,
> >> >whether it be in this business or on my own to follow that path one
> >> >day. I'm also teaching nightschool one night a week which is a great
> >> >way for me to work on the skills that are important to achieve my
> >> >goals. My partner has also told me that he understands how I feel and
> >> >would like to help me out with things like groceries and such and
> >> >carry on with taking care of our entertainment costs.
> >> >
> >> >By the way, Joelle, I'm not asking for your feedback on that last
> >> >paragraph or any other, for that matter. I'm sure you might have
> >> >something wise to say but, personally, I really couldn't give a flying
> >> >you-know-what about your opinions. You've demonstrated on numerous
> >> >occasions that you're way out in left field somewhere. But, if you
> >> >feel so compelled as to hone in on your little pastime, then enjoy and
> >> >whomever wants to enjoy your writing talents with horrendous spelling
> >> >errors (ie. giraff???), then go for it.
> >> >
> >> >It's been a real pleasure. :)
> >> >Ciya. Rhonda
> >>
> >> Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to
mention
> >> a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> >> wrong.
> >>
> >> 'Kate
> >>
> >
> >Holy crap Kate, I don't think I've ever heard you talk like that... have
you
> >been following my example??? lol
> >
> >I'm not touching this whole thread, and for good reason... yikes.
> >
> >Christine
> >
>
> What... you *know* I've had to overcome being raised in NY... once in
> awhile it comes out. I usually try to hold it in but when someone's
> stirring coals....
>
> 'Kate

Well I understand her feeling defensive... but to attack Joelle and bring
her late husband into things was going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too
far in my books, and you know me, if I'm ****ed I don't hold back, but that
was so low even I wouldn't stoop there. Yeesh.

Christine

[Joelle]

>Good idea.... its become a insulting match anyways. Why does that happen so
>much in here? lol

I would just like to point out that I did not insult the OP. She came in
asking for feedback, she got back feedback she didn't like. She may have
decided to be offended and insulted by the feedback but I did not personally
insult her. She however, became increasingly insulting at which point, yea I
did think she was fairgame to play with and yea I did bait her to fall to the
low down level she sunk to. But it really didn't take her long to get to that
level. And by the time she was swiming there in the mud, she deserved what she
got from Kate.
Joelle

[rolly]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...

> Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to mention
> a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> wrong.
>
> 'Kate
>

Tell her how you really feel!

Serious, I've never seen anyone as fool as this Rhonda bitch. I keep meaning
to get into it, but mostly it's pure joy just watching Joelle make an idiot
of Rhonda's foul mouth.

I know all of you hate the word, but if there were ever a true "****" on
assp, it's Rhonda.

I don't think i've run across a woman that vile on usenet before, and that's
saying ***alot***

[CME]

"rolly" > wrote in message
...
>
> <'Kate> wrote in message
...
>
> > Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to mention
> > a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> > wrong.
> >
> > 'Kate
> >
>
> Tell her how you really feel!
>
> Serious, I've never seen anyone as fool as this Rhonda bitch. I keep
meaning
> to get into it, but mostly it's pure joy just watching Joelle make an
idiot
> of Rhonda's foul mouth.
>
> I know all of you hate the word, but if there were ever a true "****" on
> assp, it's Rhonda.
>
> I don't think i've run across a woman that vile on usenet before, and
that's
> saying ***alot***
>
>

For you, it's saying quite alot. lmao

Christine

[Tiffany]

rolly > wrote in message
...
>
> <'Kate> wrote in message
...
>
> > Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to mention
> > a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> > wrong.
> >
> > 'Kate
> >
>
> Tell her how you really feel!
>
> Serious, I've never seen anyone as fool as this Rhonda bitch. I keep
meaning
> to get into it, but mostly it's pure joy just watching Joelle make an
idiot
> of Rhonda's foul mouth.
>
> I know all of you hate the word, but if there were ever a true "****" on
> assp, it's Rhonda.
>
> I don't think i've run across a woman that vile on usenet before, and
that's
> saying ***alot***
>
>
>

Actually, I think this is gotten totally out of control once again. Heaven
help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help. lol

T

[rolly]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> rolly > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > <'Kate> wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > > Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to
mention
> > > a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> > > wrong.
> > >
> > > 'Kate
> > >
> >
> > Tell her how you really feel!
> >
> > Serious, I've never seen anyone as fool as this Rhonda bitch. I keep
> meaning
> > to get into it, but mostly it's pure joy just watching Joelle make an
> idiot
> > of Rhonda's foul mouth.
> >
> > I know all of you hate the word, but if there were ever a true "****" on
> > assp, it's Rhonda.
> >
> > I don't think i've run across a woman that vile on usenet before, and
> that's
> > saying ***alot***
> >
> >
> >
>
> Actually, I think this is gotten totally out of control once again. Heaven
> help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help. lol
>

Did you read any of the **** she wrote to Joelle?

Why is it you have to defend every **** stain who comes by?

anyhow...

[Joelle]

>Heaven
>help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help.

Of fer crying out loud, she didn't want help she wanted ammunitin to get her
boyfriend to do what she wanted. "Look at all these people who think I should
dump you if you don't tow the line"

Joelle

[Joelle]

>Had Rhonda done that to a newly widowed person,
>it could have had different results.

That's what I thought. The thinsg is I was not looking for a flame war. I
really was sincerely trying to get her to take an honest look at her
situation. I'm not the only one who gave her feedback that said as much. But
I'm the one who pushed it and she got insulting right away "You need a sex life
- you have sick relationships"

To me, that's the real danger of ruining this ng - not that we don't give "oh
honey whatever you say, it'll be okay" support, but that people get so nasty in
response to honest support that no one will want to be honest anymore and it
will become the patronizing "whatever you think is best is best" love fest that
Steve wanted all along.

Joelle

[CME]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >Had Rhonda done that to a newly widowed person,
> >it could have had different results.
>
> That's what I thought. The thinsg is I was not looking for a flame war.
I
> really was sincerely trying to get her to take an honest look at her
> situation. I'm not the only one who gave her feedback that said as much.
But
> I'm the one who pushed it and she got insulting right away "You need a sex
life
> - you have sick relationships"
>
> To me, that's the real danger of ruining this ng - not that we don't give
"oh
> honey whatever you say, it'll be okay" support, but that people get so
nasty in
> response to honest support that no one will want to be honest anymore and
it
> will become the patronizing "whatever you think is best is best" love fest
that
> Steve wanted all along.
>
> Joelle

Ugh, count me out. I personally like getting a blast once in awhile, gives
my head a shake. lol But of course, I've come to trust the advice given
here over the years, and I try not to take it personal, although sometimes
that's difficult. But honestly, I'd rather have someone tell me something I
don't want to hear now, then me realizing it a year down the road.

Christine

[CME]

"rolly" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > rolly > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > <'Kate> wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to
> mention
> > > > a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> > > > wrong.
> > > >
> > > > 'Kate
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tell her how you really feel!
> > >
> > > Serious, I've never seen anyone as fool as this Rhonda bitch. I keep
> > meaning
> > > to get into it, but mostly it's pure joy just watching Joelle make an
> > idiot
> > > of Rhonda's foul mouth.
> > >
> > > I know all of you hate the word, but if there were ever a true "****"
on
> > > assp, it's Rhonda.
> > >
> > > I don't think i've run across a woman that vile on usenet before, and
> > that's
> > > saying ***alot***
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Actually, I think this is gotten totally out of control once again.
Heaven
> > help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help. lol
> >
>
> Did you read any of the **** she wrote to Joelle?
>
> Why is it you have to defend every **** stain who comes by?
>
> anyhow...
>

No please, tell her how you really feel? lol What Rhonda said in her posts
went far beyond the usual defence mechanism, she was just plain vicious. I
mean, if she said "**** you Joelle" then ok, I think I said that many a time
in the beginning... but NEVER did I EVER twist something so tragic, to make
it suit my own needs.

Christine

[Tiffany]

rolly > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > rolly > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > <'Kate> wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > > Nasty skank ho whose need for attention and appreciation, not to
> mention
> > > > a ****, are more important than raising children to see right from
> > > > wrong.
> > > >
> > > > 'Kate
> > > >
> > >
> > > Tell her how you really feel!
> > >
> > > Serious, I've never seen anyone as fool as this Rhonda bitch. I keep
> > meaning
> > > to get into it, but mostly it's pure joy just watching Joelle make an
> > idiot
> > > of Rhonda's foul mouth.
> > >
> > > I know all of you hate the word, but if there were ever a true "****"
on
> > > assp, it's Rhonda.
> > >
> > > I don't think i've run across a woman that vile on usenet before, and
> > that's
> > > saying ***alot***
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Actually, I think this is gotten totally out of control once again.
Heaven
> > help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help. lol
> >
>
> Did you read any of the **** she wrote to Joelle?
>
> Why is it you have to defend every **** stain who comes by?
>
> anyhow...
>
>

Well, if you look back, I have never defended anyone. Where is that coming
from? Now was I defending this recent poster. I don't agree with what she
said to Joelle but I know Joelle can answer for herself.

T

[Tiffany]

Joelle > wrote in message
...
> >Heaven
> >help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help.
>
> Of fer crying out loud, she didn't want help she wanted ammunitin to get
her
> boyfriend to do what she wanted. "Look at all these people who think I
should
> dump you if you don't tow the line"
>
> Joelle

Did you people not see the LOL after that comment?

And it did get out of hand. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong and I
didn't defend the poster or anyone else. It got out of hand...... pretty
general statement.

T

[Rhonda]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message >...
> Joelle > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Heaven
> > >help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help.
> >
> > Of fer crying out loud, she didn't want help she wanted ammunitin to get
> her
> > boyfriend to do what she wanted. "Look at all these people who think I
> should
> > dump you if you don't tow the line"
> >
> > Joelle
>
> Did you people not see the LOL after that comment?
>
> And it did get out of hand. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong and I
> didn't defend the poster or anyone else. It got out of hand...... pretty
> general statement.


Just for the record, I have NEVER, EVER before made a cold comment in
my LIFE like I made to Joelle!!! And yeah, it was a callous way to
make a point. However, it was a point! Sorry, but my kids happen to
be VERY important to me and maybe the people in this newsgroup turn
their nose up to the way I choose to live my life but my kids are VERY
well adjusted and the comments made about ME were, as far as I'm
concerned, made with strict judgement. Joelle said that it shouldn't
bother me because she's a stranger. Well, sorry, but, again, that's a
judgement call and if Joelle were such a supportive kind-hearted
person, she wouldn't have passed judgement in the harsh way that she
did. If you read carefully, all my words were reactive.

There is not one of you who can really say that you know myself or my
partner. You can't be so damn sure that he's a MAMA's boy! Just like
you can't be so damn sure that I'm a "bitch" or a "skank" or a "****".
Did you honestly expect that I would just up and dump my guy of over
a year because one letter lead a group of newsgroup chatters to
believe he's useless? Furthermore, Joelle, who seems to be a bit of a
leader here, is under the assumption that I used this newsgroup to
manipulate my partner and it's her prerogative to believe whatever the
heck it is she chooses to believe. How would I even be able to assume
the advice that I'd get here would be to dump him? And if that's the
advice I was expecting, and, at the same time was unwilling to do so,
would it make any sense for me to come here waiting to hear what I
didn't want to hear? Just so I could manipulate my partner? I don't
know, but it seems a little far fetched to me....and it just isn't so,
no matter what she believes.

Unlike her belief, I'm also not seeking affirmation and approval from
everybody because if I were, then I wouldn't have said the terrible
thing I said about her husband. That obviously wouldn't win me any
Brownie points.

I came for a third opinion and it went very very wrong. I faced a
judgemental crowd who quickly sized me up as a scumbag just because
I'm different than they are. There are parts of the world other than
yours where people are different...not as conservative and, yet, still
very healthy mentally and emotionally. You are on the internet, for
the world to see, so you may just have a visitor who arrives from a
place further north or even European or wherever because location
doesn't really matter...Everybody is different and differing cultures
do divide us. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in blood
transfusions....says so in their interpretation of the bible. That's
their truth and your truth is your truth and my truth is mine.

The opinions flared not so much because of the "Mama's Boy"
interpretation as much as the judgement call on the way I live my
life.

I love and cherish my kids more than ANYTHING in this world and
NOTHING will ever change that. You don't like the way I live my life,
that's your opinion. I don't like the way you label people as
"****stains", "sluts" and "****s" and the like....and again, that's
your opinion.

Tiffany, I want to thank you for disagreeing with me without raking me
over the coals like the rest in this group. I happen to think that
you're a really nice person from my limited experience here.

To Joelle, I'm sincerely sorry for the cruel words to you because what
you've been through is painful. I've lost both of my parents but I
can't imagine what it would be like to lose a spouse I loved. I hope
that you have no more suffering in your life and that your son has
success in school. With that out of the way, I still hope that I
never ever have the opportunity to meet anyone like you in person for
as long as I live....You'd rip my head off like a piranha for not
jumping to your "wellmeaning" advice or for living my life in a way
that you disapprove of. Nevermind about the rest of me, you've
already judged....Same with Rolly and Christine and Kate and Paul.

Anyway, I get the feeling, no matter what I say, Joelle and perhaps a
few more of you will have a wise comeback ....Since I don't want to
step in my own ****, I think I'll bow out and make a long overdue
exit. Enjoy your newsgroup.

[rolly]

"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...

Listen ya stupid bitch

No one wants you here, you are a horrible vile piece of **** for what ya
said to Joelle. Now **** off and leave well enough alone

[CME]

"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
>...
> > Joelle > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >Heaven
> > > >help the next imperfect soul who stops by asking for help.
> > >
> > > Of fer crying out loud, she didn't want help she wanted ammunitin to
get
> > her
> > > boyfriend to do what she wanted. "Look at all these people who think
I
> > should
> > > dump you if you don't tow the line"
> > >
> > > Joelle
> >
> > Did you people not see the LOL after that comment?
> >
> > And it did get out of hand. That doesn't make anyone right or wrong and
I
> > didn't defend the poster or anyone else. It got out of hand...... pretty
> > general statement.
>
>
> Just for the record, I have NEVER, EVER before made a cold comment in
> my LIFE like I made to Joelle!!! And yeah, it was a callous way to
> make a point. However, it was a point! Sorry, but my kids happen to
> be VERY important to me and maybe the people in this newsgroup turn
> their nose up to the way I choose to live my life but my kids are VERY
> well adjusted and the comments made about ME were, as far as I'm
> concerned, made with strict judgement. Joelle said that it shouldn't
> bother me because she's a stranger. Well, sorry, but, again, that's a
> judgement call and if Joelle were such a supportive kind-hearted
> person, she wouldn't have passed judgement in the harsh way that she
> did. If you read carefully, all my words were reactive.
>
> There is not one of you who can really say that you know myself or my
> partner. You can't be so damn sure that he's a MAMA's boy! Just like
> you can't be so damn sure that I'm a "bitch" or a "skank" or a "****".
> Did you honestly expect that I would just up and dump my guy of over
> a year because one letter lead a group of newsgroup chatters to
> believe he's useless? Furthermore, Joelle, who seems to be a bit of a
> leader here, is under the assumption that I used this newsgroup to
> manipulate my partner and it's her prerogative to believe whatever the
> heck it is she chooses to believe. How would I even be able to assume
> the advice that I'd get here would be to dump him? And if that's the
> advice I was expecting, and, at the same time was unwilling to do so,
> would it make any sense for me to come here waiting to hear what I
> didn't want to hear? Just so I could manipulate my partner? I don't
> know, but it seems a little far fetched to me....and it just isn't so,
> no matter what she believes.
>
> Unlike her belief, I'm also not seeking affirmation and approval from
> everybody because if I were, then I wouldn't have said the terrible
> thing I said about her husband. That obviously wouldn't win me any
> Brownie points.
>
> I came for a third opinion and it went very very wrong. I faced a
> judgemental crowd who quickly sized me up as a scumbag just because
> I'm different than they are. There are parts of the world other than
> yours where people are different...not as conservative and, yet, still
> very healthy mentally and emotionally. You are on the internet, for
> the world to see, so you may just have a visitor who arrives from a
> place further north or even European or wherever because location
> doesn't really matter...Everybody is different and differing cultures
> do divide us. Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in blood
> transfusions....says so in their interpretation of the bible. That's
> their truth and your truth is your truth and my truth is mine.
>
> The opinions flared not so much because of the "Mama's Boy"
> interpretation as much as the judgement call on the way I live my
> life.
>
> I love and cherish my kids more than ANYTHING in this world and
> NOTHING will ever change that. You don't like the way I live my life,
> that's your opinion. I don't like the way you label people as
> "****stains", "sluts" and "****s" and the like....and again, that's
> your opinion.
>
> Tiffany, I want to thank you for disagreeing with me without raking me
> over the coals like the rest in this group. I happen to think that
> you're a really nice person from my limited experience here.
>
> To Joelle, I'm sincerely sorry for the cruel words to you because what
> you've been through is painful. I've lost both of my parents but I
> can't imagine what it would be like to lose a spouse I loved. I hope
> that you have no more suffering in your life and that your son has
> success in school. With that out of the way, I still hope that I
> never ever have the opportunity to meet anyone like you in person for
> as long as I live....You'd rip my head off like a piranha for not
> jumping to your "wellmeaning" advice or for living my life in a way
> that you disapprove of. Nevermind about the rest of me, you've
> already judged....Same with Rolly and Christine and Kate and Paul.
>
> Anyway, I get the feeling, no matter what I say, Joelle and perhaps a
> few more of you will have a wise comeback ....Since I don't want to
> step in my own ****, I think I'll bow out and make a long overdue
> exit. Enjoy your newsgroup.

I haven't judged you for living with your partner or anything related to how
you raise your children... I don't even know you. BUT, I found you comments
about Joelle to be absolutely below the belt, and I called you on it.
Joelle and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I have never
brought her deceased husband into the mix because I personally believe no
matter how much you may hate a person, there is a line not to be crossed.

Christine

[CME]

"rolly" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> Listen ya stupid bitch
>
> No one wants you here, you are a horrible vile piece of **** for what ya
> said to Joelle. Now **** off and leave well enough alone
>

Just to play devil's advocate... it's really not up to you whether she stays
or goes, I agree that her comments were uncalled for, but that doesn't give
you the right to chase her out of here.

Christine

[rolly]

"CME" > wrote in message
news:dbTkb.16155$i92.1646@clgrps13...
>
> "rolly" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> > Listen ya stupid bitch
> >
> > No one wants you here, you are a horrible vile piece of **** for what ya
> > said to Joelle. Now **** off and leave well enough alone
> >
>
> Just to play devil's advocate... it's really not up to you whether she
stays
> or goes, I agree that her comments were uncalled for, but that doesn't
give
> you the right to chase her out of here.
>
> Christine
>

But my behaviour is up to you?

Get a grip Christine.


It's usenet, and an alt group, why don't you go educate yourself into what
that means.

If she wants to come here and spew **** like that, I'll chase her out of
everygroup i see her posting in

>

[Joelle]

>ut that doesn't give
>you the right to chase her out of here.

The beautiful thing about usenet is that nobody can chase anybody out of it.
Rhonda can say whatever the hell she likes, Tom can say whatever the hell he
wants and everyone decides for themselves what and whether they will post.

JOelle

[CME]

"rolly" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CME" > wrote in message
> news:dbTkb.16155$i92.1646@clgrps13...
> >
> > "rolly" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Rhonda" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > >
> > > Listen ya stupid bitch
> > >
> > > No one wants you here, you are a horrible vile piece of **** for what
ya
> > > said to Joelle. Now **** off and leave well enough alone
> > >
> >
> > Just to play devil's advocate... it's really not up to you whether she
> stays
> > or goes, I agree that her comments were uncalled for, but that doesn't
> give
> > you the right to chase her out of here.
> >
> > Christine
> >
>
> But my behaviour is up to you?
>
> Get a grip Christine.
>
>
> It's usenet, and an alt group, why don't you go educate yourself into what
> that means.
>
> If she wants to come here and spew **** like that, I'll chase her out of
> everygroup i see her posting in
>

Wow, pretty hypocritical.

Christine

[CME]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >ut that doesn't give
> >you the right to chase her out of here.
>
> The beautiful thing about usenet is that nobody can chase anybody out of
it.
> Rhonda can say whatever the hell she likes, Tom can say whatever the hell
he
> wants and everyone decides for themselves what and whether they will post.
>
> JOelle

True enough, and the beauty of usenet is that I can say what I said above
and in the real world, still look at myself in the mirror.

Christine

[©kat©]

"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...

> Perhaps your husband had a premature death due to your
> harsh, miserable demeanour and perhaps you are wracked with guilt over
> the fact that it was the life you gave him of nastiness, laced with
> sex on YOUR terms and NOTHING else of substance that slowly killed
> him.

Ok, I've not kept up with this whole shebang of nonesense, but I've been
reading from the top for the past half hour or so, and I have to stop right
here.
I have yet to read anything under this post above me, so if this has died
out, or if it brings up anything, please accept my apology right now (mainly
Joelle, I guess)

That statement above is just uncalled for. You, Rhonda, are a mean, nasty,
arrogant, ignorant and simply stupid bitch. YOU came HERE looking for some
advice, and when YOU didn't get the advice YOU wanted, you turned into some
sort of psycho-bitch, trying to act all high and mighty.

Even reading everything up to this point, I see NO reason at all for what
you said, you mean, mean human being. You are a ****, and I hope, some day
soon, someone puts you in your place. I'm not at all sorry that Joelle has
the balls to say things how she sees them. I cannot say that about you, and
the way you sugar coat your seemingly adopted (adult) child and his immature
ways. You two are perfect for eachother, judging only by what I've read so
far coming straight at me through the ether.

You're just a nasty little ****, and it's a shame you haven't found any type
of love. I could jump at you about your comment about lack of family, but,
you see, I'm better than that, and it seems it's your style to try and take
a low shot at someone over a lost loved one.

You need to grow up - for the sake of everyone involved in your situation.
Time to grow up, act your age and live your life with your priorities
straight. For most in a similar situation (and I'm sure not many here would
disagree) our children come first. Children should come before your own
personal vendetta of your Mama's Boy partner and yourself. Quit treating
everyone like trash because it appears that you are no better than the next
person here, or anywhere. Put your little sex life and whining aside.



> Now, get this, Joelle, it is not in MY nature to say anything that
> mean and cold-hearted EVER to ANYONE....but somehow you seem to bring
> it out in me, like perhaps you did to your late husband, only he
> turned it inwards and it slowly killed him. Furthermore, I know it
> won't bother you, it really doesn't make a bit of difference since I'm
> a stranger who you seem to think you know so much about.

Shut the **** up, you nasty bitch.

> Do you think I'm quick to pass judgement? Welcome to a good, hard dose
> of your own medicine, my dear. My purpose for my post was not to
> manipulate my partner as you have guessed. Perhaps you aren't the
> maven you think you are.

Passing judgement and what you're actually doing are two totally different
things. Open your eyes wide enough to see past your lover and learn the
difference. I recall something about 'training' and in this case, training
and manipulating seem to be one in the same for you.

> Oh, and Tiffany, thanks for your good wishes and advice. My partner
> and I are actually working on this business together, with myself as
> the partner offering computer services to clients....So, although I've
> sacrificed a little financially when the going was rough with
> separation and other stresses that were taking place, I am hopeful,
> whether it be in this business or on my own to follow that path one
> day. I'm also teaching nightschool one night a week which is a great
> way for me to work on the skills that are important to achieve my
> goals. My partner has also told me that he understands how I feel and
> would like to help me out with things like groceries and such and
> carry on with taking care of our entertainment costs.

I think I'm going to have to change "partner" to "Mama's Boy ****-Buddy"
because it seems a better fit. My partner, my partner, my partner, howdy
pard'ner!

> By the way, Joelle, I'm not asking for your feedback on that last
> paragraph or any other, for that matter. I'm sure you might have
> something wise to say but, personally, I really couldn't give a flying
> you-know-what about your opinions. You've demonstrated on numerous
> occasions that you're way out in left field somewhere. But, if you
> feel so compelled as to hone in on your little pastime, then enjoy and
> whomever wants to enjoy your writing talents with horrendous spelling
> errors (ie. giraff???), then go for it.

You were asking for everyone's feedback in your original post. Joelle
obviously hit some soft spots that are similar to the soft spots on the top
of your bed buddy's head. Careful of those - you can really damage your
baby's brain if you throw caution to the wind. I'd rather be way out in
left field than sitting on the bench, but then again, you seem to be quite
content.
Jabbing at minor spelliing errors is sooooooo grade 7! You relate well to
your **** buddy. Did you pick that up from him or did he pick it up from
you? Which Mama came up with it first? His or you as his?

> It's been a real pleasure. :)
> Ciya. Rhonda

Ciya? I believe it's normally c-ya, c ya or cya. Ciya?
I'm glad you get your kicks out of life like this. Cadela do dado - and
enjoy it.

[©kat©]

"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...

>Since I don't want to
> step in my own ****, I think I'll bow out and make a long overdue
> exit. Enjoy your newsgroup.


Atta girl! You're actually getting the hang of it! You'd make anyone's
Mama (Mama's Boy) proud!
Also, I'd like to thank you for wishing I enjoy the NG. I'm actually quite
fond of this place, although I've been lacking time and energy. Enjoy your
3 teenage boys!

[Dennis Here]

Paul Fritz wrote in message ...
>
>"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Paul Fritz > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Darn it Joelle,
>> > I agree with every word you said.
>> >
>> > The only thing I have to add is that you could interchange 'men' and
>> 'women'
>> > and it would be just as valid :-)
>> >
>>
>>
>> Oh you think so do you? lol
>
>Yeah, I think men can get desperate and choose "less then perfect" as
well,
>and figure she'll adapt and it would be equally damaging for a man to bring
>a woman into the house for 'sleep overs' with the kids there.


Yeah this is a big one for all lone parents.
So far (six years) I have kept "sleep overs" to the nights Freddie is away
but I have never been sure if it is some kind of handicap to developing a
full relationship. It seems that all the time I am doing this it means there
is a big part of the potential relationship left undeveloped.
Having said that I also think that in the fullness of time and when the
right person comes along, this could quite easily change. I think that
perhaps it is my own doubts about whether on not a relationship has a future
that has made me keep my love life separate from my family life. This is a
major thing for me though as, paradoxically, one of my biggest pleasures
and the thing that I miss the most, is simple day to day family life!

Dennis

[Dennis Here]

Joelle wrote in message

> As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be a lot
>easier to satisfy :-)


Prefer quality to quantity myself which is just as well considering I have
been "single" all this year!
I must get out more ;-)

Dennis

[Rhonda]

"Dennis Here" oureply> wrote in message >...
> Joelle wrote in message
>
> > As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be a lot
> >easier to satisfy :-)
>
>
> Prefer quality to quantity myself which is just as well considering I have
> been "single" all this year!
> I must get out more ;-)
>
> Dennis

Dennis, I completely understand where you're coming from. My older
son almost never stays over at his father's place so I never have
childless weekends. What we did was go to sleep after the kids and
wake up earlier than my kids and we were never questioned. It
appeared as though he very well could have left at night and arrived
again in the morning. Because we moved slowly on all of this, my kids
are comfortable now if they see us cuddling up together...of couse
with clothes on. I would never have gotten to that point had I not
felt a closeness with my partner to a sense that I felt we might
always be together. I've dated before and had relationships before
but this relationship is different. We've had our things to work out
like anyone else but we always seem to pull through.

[Dennis Here]

Rhonda wrote in message

>Dennis, I completely understand where you're coming from. My older
>son almost never stays over at his father's place so I never have
>childless weekends. What we did was go to sleep after the kids and
>wake up earlier than my kids and we were never questioned. It
>appeared as though he very well could have left at night and arrived
>again in the morning. Because we moved slowly on all of this, my kids
>are comfortable now if they see us cuddling up together...of couse
>with clothes on. I would never have gotten to that point had I not
>felt a closeness with my partner to a sense that I felt we might
>always be together. I've dated before and had relationships before
>but this relationship is different. We've had our things to work out
>like anyone else but we always seem to pull through.

I kept out of the original exchanges as they seemed to me to be somewhat
over emotional all around for what is a very important and difficult topic.
As I see it there should be no hard and fast rules, just what those involved
are comfortable with. By "those involved" I also mean the children. After
all, children do have to get a role model for a caring, loving relationship
from someone and who better than their own parent?

Dennis

[Paul Fritz]

Not only are you selfish, but incredibly naive as well

"Rhonda" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dennis Here" oureply>
wrote in message >...
> > Joelle wrote in message
> >
> > > As long as they get enough sex, men seem to be a lot
> > >easier to satisfy :-)
> >
> >
> > Prefer quality to quantity myself which is just as well considering I
have
> > been "single" all this year!
> > I must get out more ;-)
> >
> > Dennis
>
> Dennis, I completely understand where you're coming from. My older
> son almost never stays over at his father's place so I never have
> childless weekends. What we did was go to sleep after the kids and
> wake up earlier than my kids and we were never questioned. It
> appeared as though he very well could have left at night and arrived
> again in the morning. Because we moved slowly on all of this, my kids
> are comfortable now if they see us cuddling up together...of couse
> with clothes on. I would never have gotten to that point had I not
> felt a closeness with my partner to a sense that I felt we might
> always be together. I've dated before and had relationships before
> but this relationship is different. We've had our things to work out
> like anyone else but we always seem to pull through.