Hello, way long sorry.....

[Bebe lestrnge]

I am new to you, but I have lurked here for almost 2 years. I haven't
posted for a few reasons. Caution to the wind.........
My name is Bev, I am 42 y/o single mom of two girls, oldest 22 in
college far away from home :( I miss her lots ! Youngest 16 this past
September and a new mother to my 2 month old granddaughter. Long past
history warms my heart with a step daughter and son both adults 30 and
26 and 3 more grandchildren 12, 7 and 1. There is a third step son that
I rather not know of (we won't discuss this now) .
I guess my reason to try to begin communicating here has a whole lot to
do with the single parent stuff we are dealing with, with my daughter
and her new baby. She and my sweet granddaughter are of course living at
home here with me. I am very happy about the baby and very proud of my
young daughter and how she has handled becoming a mother so young. When
she and her boyfriend came to me 11 months ago I think shock was what I
felt first.... not that it happened, cause heck these things do happen,
we wish not to our teens, but hey there it was and what to do was never
a question in my heart and mind. We would do everything we can to give
this baby a loving home and good stable environment. We had spent a
horrible almost 2 years going through emotional hell due to the death of
my partner and my daughters "other parent" which was all she knew for 14
years of her life. She has a father but the relationship with him is
very hard for her because he is an alcoholic. I am trying to be some
what brief with the history because it is way to much to discuss in a
single post. This baby has brought so much joy to all of us that are
involved at this point in her care. I have a live in partner that has
been a wonderful support both emotional and financial, to my
daughter,granddaughter and I. The stress has not torn us apart yet and
I am praying we will survive this change in our lives. My daughter has
returned to school as it should be,she must finish her education. So my
partner and I have filled in the blanks were baby comes in to play .
The daddy of the baby is also 16, he goes to school and works a part
time job to buy the diapers and wipes. He is at our house as often as he
can be but lives with his parents down the road. At first he seemed
afraid of the baby. He is now doing much better with helping to care for
her. It has been hard trying to keep the two teenage parents heads on
straight here and there. I guess it is that they are kids and boy do
they still think just like kids sometimes! Anyway, one of the issues we
have right now is that of support ? It is not that I see us not having
what we need to raise this baby up until these kids grow up and can give
her a home and security on their own and I do hope this will happen in
the next couple of years ( they seem to get it) ! My question is he is a
boy of 16 ? Shouldn't his parents be helping to support this baby as I
have as the maternal grandmother ? I have managed to get the baby on my
health insurance and we have WIC for formula, financially things are not
horrible, but what if they don't stay together? Shouldn't someone be
putting some money away for this babies security and well being? This I
can't do. Am I thinking right to feel that his parents should be doing
something here ?????? I don't want to stress these kids into an
argument between them and if it weren't for the fact that his parents
are doing nothing to help, I mean it is even expected for us to send
formula when they do take the baby every other weekend ? Do I leave it
go ? Advice is needed please. Thanks for your time. Bev

[Joelle]

>Am I thinking right to feel that his parents should be doing
>something here ??????

You can feel whatever you want, but you can't make them help. And truth be
told, it's not his parent's responsiblity, nor is it yours. It's the kids.
And it's only gonna get more and more awkward, as you take on more
responsiblity, you are going to want more control of the situation (which is
only normal) but the fact is, unless your daughter gives up custudy, you have
no control. She's going to things you think are wrong and not good for the
baby and you may be right or you may be wrong, but it won't matter. You aren't
the parent. She is.

I'm not saying it's not a great thing that you are stepping in for this child,
but it's gonna get dicey and if his parents haven't stepped up to the plate by
now, they probably aren't going to.

Good luck.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Sun, Feb 15, 2004, 8:35pm
(EST+5) From: (Joelle)


Am I thinking right to feel that his parents should be doing something
here ??????

-------------
You can feel whatever you want, but you can't make them help. And truth
be told, it's not his parent's responsiblity, nor is it yours. It's the
kids.

Hello Joelle, Thanks for responding, Yeah it is the kids responsibility,
I think I have known that but seem to keep coming back to how the heck
can/will they be able to do it on their own ? They just haven't got the
ability at their age to . I know I took the responsibility to help them
and just could not see another way that would be acceptable to me I
guess. ( adoption or abortion were never a choice for me) So I see where
I made this decision to at least be financially responsible until the
kids finish school and can work and find their way out into the big bad
world ,ya know?

--------------------------
unless your daughter gives up custody, you have no control.

Hmmmmmm no control is probably more of the problem for me huh?
------------------------
You aren't the parent. She is.

Yep you are right, and it is so difficult to have to let your child
struggle through the hard stuff, but that is how they grow.

-----------------------
I'm not saying it's not a great thing that you are stepping in for this
child, but it's gonna get dicey and if his parents haven't stepped up to
the plate by now, they probably aren't going to.

right again Joelle, They won't be and I guess again I am just ticked
about their lack of consideration . I guess I should of realised after
his mother refused to attend the baby shower that things would be this
way. My daughter has mentioned "child support" from her boyfriend and I
was truthful to her .....I said" it is your right to do so but think it
through it could cause a problem with him and his parents." So far she
has let it be. He does buy the babies diapers and wipes which does help
a great deal. This is so hard for me to stand back and I thank you for
your honesty with me.
----------------

Good luck.

Thanks! Bev
Joelle

The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[lm]

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:47:25 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
lestrnge) wrote:


(Joelle wrote...)

>I'm not saying it's not a great thing that you are stepping in for this
>child, but it's gonna get dicey and if his parents haven't stepped up to
>the plate by now, they probably aren't going to.
>
(then Bebe wrote...)

>right again Joelle, They won't be and I guess again I am just ticked
>about their lack of consideration . I guess I should of realised after
>his mother refused to attend the baby shower that things would be this
>way. My daughter has mentioned "child support" from her boyfriend and I
>was truthful to her .....I said" it is your right to do so but think it
>through it could cause a problem with him and his parents." So far she
>has let it be. He does buy the babies diapers and wipes which does help
>a great deal. This is so hard for me to stand back and I thank you for
>your honesty with me.

The other grandparents may believe that they're doing the right thing
by not helping out, thereby forcing the parents to face their
responsibility. They may believe that you are keeping the parents from
growing up by helping out. It doesn't sound like that's the case, but
parenting styles differ greatly.

Certainly the father should be doing more than buying diapers and
wipes. If you are helping them out so as not to make waves between the
families, and she is learning from you that she should not expect the
father to do his part so as not to make waves between the families,
you and your daughter will be on your own with this little one in no
time. She needs to speak up for her child's needs and your support
(moral support, not doing it for her) in that regard would probably be
very helpful to her.

lm

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Sun, Feb 15, 2004, 7:08pm
(EST-1) From: ('Kate)
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:02:53 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
lestrnge)
I am new to you, but I have lurked here for almost 2 years. I haven't
posted for a few reasons. Caution to the wind......... <snip>
Bev


Hi and welcome,

Hello 'Kate, thanks for the welcome .
------
There's a difference between what is morally right and what is legally
right. I don't think you can make the other grandparents support their
son's child. The son was adult enough to make the baby, he is
responsible for part of the child's support.

I understand about the moral and legal differences and I am struggling
with how to guide my daughter in the right direction. She has said in
anger to her b/f that his parents do nothing to help and hers do
everything , I heard this and felt good that she sees all we do and sad
for Jimmy cause I know it is not his doing but his parents . He does try
but again what he is doing is limited . By his parents I understand.
They take his money and allow him limits as to when he can be here,
which totally ticks off my daughter. She is having a hard time accepting
that at 16 this is the way it has to be for them. Every cent he spends
on the baby they want receipts for and he has to ask them for his money
The mother has clearly stated she is embarrassed of the baby? Bugs me
to no end.... heck it is 2004 ! What is there to be ashamed of ? Anyway,
I am leaning towards suggesting to Sara to get legal custody of the baby
and seek legal support from Jimmy so this crap can stop.
He wont have to ask his parents for diaper money and my daughter won't
have to ask him either. Legally that is the way , I just wish it didn't
have to be that way.
---------------


Perhaps some of what's going on is the result of a gap between your
daughter and the parents of the father or the father and his parents. If
you can improve communications, they may step up to the plate themselves
without being asked.

Communications are lacking and we do need to improve them !
------------------
Maybe they don't know what formula to buy. Maybe they should know
because the baby is there every other weekend... but since the formula
was provided once, they've come to expect that you'll send it every time
or they just never thought about it. The thing is... the son should be
involved a bit more where his parents are concerned. He knows what his
child needs and he should be providing it either himself or through his
parents just as your daughter is.

Oh they know the kind of formula , they asked outright the very first
time they took Jaime for a can and ask every time for it. My daughter
who usually isn't afraid of anything seems to be intimidated by his
mother. I think this is where the communication is lacking. She is a
very loud woman and it appears everyone gives her her way including my
daughter Argh!!!!! Do I step in now ? Do I communicate what my daughter
can not ? See this is where I am the most frustrated. I know what needs
to be done but I am not the babies mother..........my daughter is and my
daughter is also a child. Adult enough to get her life into this twist
but not old enough to deal with the just negotiations with the others
involved.
----------------

Your partner is being wonderful about all of this for stepping in to
fill in the gaps. I'm glad that you're sticking by your daughter and her
new family. Teen parents need all the help and emotional support that
they can get.

Yeah , I am grateful for the person Mari is, the sacrifices she has made
in all of this outweigh any of my own. She changed her work schedule and
now works 3 to 11 p.m. so she can take care of Jaime while Sara is in
school and I am at work, life is hectic but life is good. These teen
parents have much love and support coming their way I hope they realise
how hard this could of been without supportive parents .
----------------

Good luck figuring this out.
'Kate

Thanks 'Kate good luck is exactly what I need. Bev

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 2:02am
(EST+5) From: (lm)



The other grandparents may believe that they're doing the right thing by
not helping out, thereby forcing the parents to face their
responsibility. They may believe that you are keeping the parents from
growing up by helping out. It doesn't sound like that's the case, but
parenting styles differ greatly.

I hope what we are doing is to help the kids finish high school at the
least, I know there is a fine line here and we need to allow them to
have the most responsibility with the baby as often as possible. Yes
they need to grow up and fast if they are going to be able to give this
baby a stable home sometime in the next couple of years. If they are
doing this to teach the kids the responsibility.... they have blown it
big time, cause they hold this young mans money from him and that alone
to me says they don't trust him with his own earnings????? and all he
wants to do is buy baby stuff?????? He is very well mannered and seems
to be responsible to me.... they wont give him that and I see that as
wrong. I think that interferes with his growth .
----------
Certainly the father should be doing more than buying diapers and wipes.
If you are helping them out so as not to make waves between the
families, and she is learning from you that she should not expect the
father to do his part so as not to make waves between the families, you
and your daughter will be on your own with this little one in no time.
She needs to speak up for her child's needs and your support (moral
support, not doing it for her) in that regard would probably be very
helpful to her.
lm

You are so right on here and I thank you for your input, Sara does need
to stand up and speak up for what she needs from Jimmy and he needs to
do the same with his folks and I need to just stay sober !!!!!!
Thanks again, Bev

[Joelle]

>Yeah it is the kids responsibility,
>I think I have known that but seem to keep coming back to how the heck
>can/will they be able to do it on their own ?

Well, what's done is done, but that really was the question they should have
been asking themselves when they decided to raise the baby.

>. I know I took the responsibility to help them
>and just could not see another way that would be acceptable to me I
>guess. ( adoption or abortion were never a choice for me)

There's the rub. Abortion or adoption was never your choice to make. It was
theirs and you made it easy to choose to raise the baby because they knew they
could depend on you. Now I kind of think you are stuck. They made the choice
expecting your help. If they didn't have your help maybe they would have made
a different choice, but what's done is done. I think you are kind of
obligated, more so than the boys parents because they made it clear in the
beginning that they weren't going to take responsiblity for the child.

>I made this decision to at least be financially responsible until the
>kids finish school and can work and find their way out into the big bad
>world ,ya know?

Well hopefully it will work out that way.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Joelle]

>She has said in
>anger to her b/f that his parents do nothing to help and hers do
>everything , I heard this and felt good that she sees all we do and sad

See, seeing her resent her boyfriend because her mom does more than his parents
should not make you feel good. It should worry you. What that child needs is
stable mother and father, together if possible. Already this is a bad set up
for the father- he's set up to be a failure compared to his girlfriend's
mother. This is going to make him resent you, resent her, and maybe even
withdraw more from his child because he feels he can't live up.

You probably should stop advising your daughter, treat her like the adult she
needs to be, but if you are going to advise her tell her to stop ragging on her
boyfriend and instead give him positive feedback for what he does do for the
family.

>She is having a hard time accepting
>that at 16 this is the way it has to be for them

I know it's hard to make them see that before the baby comes. But yea, that's
her life. She gives up a lot. But help her see what she gains.


>I am leaning towards suggesting to Sara to get legal custody of the baby
>and seek legal support from Jimmy so this crap can stop.

I think you need to stay out of it.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:16am
(EST+5) From: (Joelle)

Well, what's done is done, but that really was the question they should
have been asking themselves when they decided to raise the baby.

Yes Joelle I was a very large part of the decision. O.K. so I asked for
this.....
because I do not believe in abortion as a form of birth control, because
I could not live with knowing I had a granddaughter out there being
raised by strangers as good as that is for some people , just not me.
Because after having suffered the loss of my partner to death not that
long ago , this was maybe a joy to hold unto....I am digging deep so
maybe I will be understood. Truth be told They got pregnant on purpose,
so they told me, after I went off on a rant about how stupid they were
and did they realise how much life will change as they know it. My final
cry while I digested what was happening I hugged my daughter and told
her I would support them as best I could that I loved her no matter what
mistakes or how wrong I think what she does is and it has always been
that way and always will. I am part of the problem and this I know. I
certainly am not letting these kids off easy. They do and have been left
to take care of the baby I am here when I am not working and I work full
time . I took 2 weeks after the baby was born "family leave" to be sure
my daughter could handle herself with the baby. I know I have to learn
to keep out of most of this and I do understand what you are saying .

--------


There's the rub. Abortion or adoption was never your choice to make. It
was theirs and you made it easy to choose to raise the baby because they
knew they could depend on you. Now I kind of think you are stuck. They
made the choice expecting your help. If they didn't have your help maybe
they would have made a different choice, but what's done is done. I
think you are kind of obligated, more so than the boys parents because
they made it clear in the beginning that they weren't going to take
responsibility for the child.

His mother totally peaked when they told her, I went with them for moral
support.
From yelling at them that they were idiots to there was no way they were
gonna raise a welfare baby, to WIC was out of the question . The woman
was way out there and scared the crap out of them. I was
speechless..........

WIC is a wonderful program and I was not gonna let her rantings stop us
from using it. As is the welfare program When my marriage first broke up
I had nothing and these programs helped me back on my own. I have been a
working member of society for at least 20 years ! We don't need the
welfare program and that is good. If we did yes I would of directed my
daughter that way.

I see how getting started here can take many twists and turns, deep down
I knew.
I am looking at myself in a different light.
thanks for your honesty again. Bev

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:22am
(EST+5) From: (Joelle)

See, seeing her resent her boyfriend because her mom does more than his
parents should not make you feel good. It should worry you. What that
child needs is stable mother and father, together if possible. Already
this is a bad set up for the father- he's set up to be a failure
compared to his girlfriend's mother. This is going to make him resent
you, resent her, and maybe even withdraw more from his child because he
feels he can't live up.
Maybe I said it wrong....I am not happy she is upset with Jimmy and
there have been many times I have talked to Jimmy cause he didn't
understand what Sara wanted him to do about things his parents want from
him. She wants him living here I do not and his parents do not. He has
been learning to more with the baby, see he wasn't and I was as upset
as my daughter and I talked to him because my daughter was so upset at
realising this is it she is the mom and this is it . He comes and goes
and she resents that. Beleive me I have mediated many times to help them
keep it together through this. My daughter is not liking the role he has
compared to hers and I needed to explain to her that he needs to be shwn
what to do and told you need some time for yourself too. They have been
learning many lessons here about being parents and about being
considerate of each other. Jimmy comes to me for advice in dealing with
my daughter who is not the easiest person to deal with. There are some
mental health issues. She is medicated and grounded but a live wire at
times. I am doing the best I can and appreciate the advice and input. I
can't stay out of it for the reasons I have disclosed. All of which is
relevant and I am sorry I did not include it in the beggining. I was
overwhelmed that the post was too long to begin with.
I have to stop here cause I have to get out of here for work, I'll type
later Bev

You probably should stop advising your daughter, treat her like the
adult she needs to be, but if you are going to advise her tell her to
stop ragging on her boyfriend and instead give him positive feedback for
what he does do for the family.


I think you need to stay out of it.
Joelle

[Paul Fritz]

"lm" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:47:25 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
> lestrnge) wrote:
>
>
> (Joelle wrote...)
>
> >I'm not saying it's not a great thing that you are stepping in for this
> >child, but it's gonna get dicey and if his parents haven't stepped up
to
> >the plate by now, they probably aren't going to.
> >
> (then Bebe wrote...)
>
> >right again Joelle, They won't be and I guess again I am just ticked
> >about their lack of consideration . I guess I should of realised after
> >his mother refused to attend the baby shower that things would be this
> >way. My daughter has mentioned "child support" from her boyfriend and I
> >was truthful to her .....I said" it is your right to do so but think it
> >through it could cause a problem with him and his parents." So far she
> >has let it be. He does buy the babies diapers and wipes which does help
> >a great deal. This is so hard for me to stand back and I thank you for
> >your honesty with me.
>
> The other grandparents may believe that they're doing the right thing
> by not helping out, thereby forcing the parents to face their
> responsibility. They may believe that you are keeping the parents from
> growing up by helping out. It doesn't sound like that's the case, but
> parenting styles differ greatly.
>
> Certainly the father should be doing more than buying diapers and
> wipes. If you are helping them out so as not to make waves between the
> families, and she is learning from you that she should not expect the
> father to do his part so as not to make waves between the families,
> you and your daughter will be on your own with this little one in no
> time. She needs to speak up for her child's needs and your support
> (moral support, not doing it for her) in that regard would probably be
> very helpful to her.
>
> lm


And how much is the child's mother 'helping' out. The father has a part
time job to help pay expenses....does she?

[V]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...

>
> And how much is the child's mother 'helping' out. The father has a part
> time job to help pay expenses....does she?
>
>
Actually Paul, good point. When I figured what to ask for child support, it
was not to support me but the kids.
I figured I am responsible for half. The other parent is too.
So why is child support 33%?
Go get your calculator out now and let me know.
Vicky

[V]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >She has said in
> >anger to her b/f that his parents do nothing to help and hers do
> >everything , I heard this and felt good that she sees all we do and sad
>
> See, seeing her resent her boyfriend because her mom does more than his
parents
> should not make you feel good. It should worry you. What that child needs
is
> stable mother and father, together if possible. Already this is a bad set
up
> for the father- he's set up to be a failure compared to his girlfriend's
> mother. This is going to make him resent you, resent her, and maybe even
> withdraw more from his child because he feels he can't live up.
>
> You probably should stop advising your daughter, treat her like the adult
she
> needs to be, but if you are going to advise her tell her to stop ragging on
her
> boyfriend and instead give him positive feedback for what he does do for the
> family.
>
> >She is having a hard time accepting
> >that at 16 this is the way it has to be for them
>
> I know it's hard to make them see that before the baby comes. But yea,
that's
> her life. She gives up a lot. But help her see what she gains.
>
>
> >I am leaning towards suggesting to Sara to get legal custody of the baby
> >and seek legal support from Jimmy so this crap can stop.
>
> I think you need to stay out of it.

I agree. She will only resent you if they can keep it together and her young
mind will blame you later. I promise this is the mind of a young person.
If I were in a similar situation, I would ensure the baby had exactly what was
needed, buying it myself. I would give them a schedule of when I would be able
to keep my granddaughter. I would not sway from my decision and be firm, yet
loving. If approached, a possible reply would be, "honey, I hope you guys can
work it out. Maybe counseling or talking to a preist, pastor, etc would help?"
I will even drive you.
Best of luck.
Vicky


>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 7:58am From:
(Paul=A0Fritz)

=A0=A0=A0=A0And how much is the child's mother 'helping' out. The father
has a part time job to help pay expenses....does she?


Hello Paul, The mother would be my daughter. So I will comment on your
comment.........Sara does not have a job right now, no she does not, not
outside of the home. She would be the one that is going to school,
taking care of the baby after school while her B/F Jimmy is working part
time every other day, after school and spending 3-4 hours a day here in
our home with his them. He has supplied diapers and wipes to my
granddaughter Jaime. Sara is a stay at home mom, not because her B/F is
old enough to support her and the baby ,he is only 16. I and my current
partner have taken responsibility financially until the kids finish
school and can begin to be self supportive . My daughter is on SSI for
mental health issues that surfaced three years ago when my partner/ her
"other parent" in the home for 12 1/2 years of which my daughter was
raised by my partner and myself since she was 6 months old. Fortunately
the doctors finally decided she was not Bi-Polar and found a medication
that controls her condition which they are calling "Intermittent
explosive disorder " and major depression. Her SSI is about double what
Jimmy makes a month working part time. WIC has supplied over $200.00 in
infant formula. I have the baby covered under my employers health
insurance for the time being. Jimmy is spending about 10 to 15 bucks a
week on the diapers and wipes. My daughters SSI is covering anything
else at this point needed to care for the baby. I understand where you
are coming from and I respect that. I know there are good and caring
fathers in this group and I mean no disrespect to any of you. My ex and
father to my daughters was not a good man and still is not. I am deeply
saddened by what he has not given to his girls emotionally. I would have
so much preferred his given love for them over any support payment . He
is a sick man and he has missed the boat. I think when I started this I
was in a ****ed off state of mind because of the Jimmies parents lack
of interest in helping us with the babies needs. They had two children
of their own and any one of us knows just what an expense there is in
raising children. I realise Jimmy is only 16 and I much rather see him
finish high school than work full time and get no where in all of this.
He is a good kid and I do not mean to sound harsh . I want for these
young parents to succeed and they need all the help they can get. It
does not matter who works outside the home and who doesn't as long as
they are happy with the arrangement of who is responsible for what part
of the babies needs that are being met......... right ?
At the moment they have a really good support system from Mari and I and
I have reached the conclusion that what his parents do or don't do just
is not important. That The kids learn to be responsible good loving
parents to their baby is and that is what I will focus on.
Peace! Bev

[P.Fritz]

"V" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> >
> > And how much is the child's mother 'helping' out. The father has a
part
> > time job to help pay expenses....does she?
> >
> >
> Actually Paul, good point. When I figured what to ask for child support,
it
> was not to support me but the kids.
> I figured I am responsible for half. The other parent is too.
> So why is child support 33%?

33% of what? What YOU chose to spend on the kids?

BTW.....since the is absolutlely no restrictions on what YOU spend the money
on, it is for you.

> Go get your calculator out now and let me know.
> Vicky
>
>

[P.Fritz]

It is quite obvious you are enabling your daughter........she made adult
decisions to gestate and birth a child, she needs to act like an adult and
provide for it as well. Your 'taking' financial responsibility is going to
do more har than good.

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 7:58am From:
(Paul Fritz)

And how much is the child's mother 'helping' out. The father
has a part time job to help pay expenses....does she?


Hello Paul, The mother would be my daughter. So I will comment on your
comment.........Sara does not have a job right now, no she does not, not
outside of the home. She would be the one that is going to school,
taking care of the baby after school while her B/F Jimmy is working part
time every other day, after school and spending 3-4 hours a day here in
our home with his them. He has supplied diapers and wipes to my
granddaughter Jaime. Sara is a stay at home mom, not because her B/F is
old enough to support her and the baby ,he is only 16. I and my current
partner have taken responsibility financially until the kids finish
school and can begin to be self supportive . My daughter is on SSI for
mental health issues that surfaced three years ago when my partner/ her
"other parent" in the home for 12 1/2 years of which my daughter was
raised by my partner and myself since she was 6 months old. Fortunately
the doctors finally decided she was not Bi-Polar and found a medication
that controls her condition which they are calling "Intermittent
explosive disorder " and major depression. Her SSI is about double what
Jimmy makes a month working part time. WIC has supplied over $200.00 in
infant formula. I have the baby covered under my employers health
insurance for the time being. Jimmy is spending about 10 to 15 bucks a
week on the diapers and wipes. My daughters SSI is covering anything
else at this point needed to care for the baby. I understand where you
are coming from and I respect that. I know there are good and caring
fathers in this group and I mean no disrespect to any of you. My ex and
father to my daughters was not a good man and still is not. I am deeply
saddened by what he has not given to his girls emotionally. I would have
so much preferred his given love for them over any support payment . He
is a sick man and he has missed the boat. I think when I started this I
was in a ****ed off state of mind because of the Jimmies parents lack
of interest in helping us with the babies needs. They had two children
of their own and any one of us knows just what an expense there is in
raising children. I realise Jimmy is only 16 and I much rather see him
finish high school than work full time and get no where in all of this.
He is a good kid and I do not mean to sound harsh . I want for these
young parents to succeed and they need all the help they can get. It
does not matter who works outside the home and who doesn't as long as
they are happy with the arrangement of who is responsible for what part
of the babies needs that are being met......... right ?
At the moment they have a really good support system from Mari and I and
I have reached the conclusion that what his parents do or don't do just
is not important. That The kids learn to be responsible good loving
parents to their baby is and that is what I will focus on.
Peace! Bev

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 8:19pm
(EST+5) From: (V)


Hi Vicky, the advice you have given helps a lot ! I have taken way too
much of the responsibility away from these kids and I will indeed need
to continue to raise my own daughter though Right? She is doing a
wonderful job with Jaime . As is Jimmy.
I have had a hard time pulling away the well meaning motherly advice to
both of them. I know it was our choice to take on so much while they
attend school but for the babies well being . We did not want to take
her out in the bitter cold to a day care situation at 2 months old. So
we accommodated that. I still stand there on it too ! We do need to ease
out of the picture a little bit and give them more to decide for
themselves but again they are kids and damn they don't think right some
times. It is hard to stop parenting your 16 year old . I really do not
know how?
I'm struggling here..........Bev



I agree. She will only resent you if they can keep it together and her
young mind will blame you later. I promise this is the mind of a young
person. If I were in a similar situation, I would ensure the baby had
exactly what was needed, buying it myself. I would give them a schedule
of when I would be able to keep my granddaughter. I would not sway from
my decision and be firm, yet loving. If approached, a possible reply
would be, "honey, I hope you guys can work it out. Maybe counseling or
talking to a preist, pastor, etc would help?" I will even drive you.
Best of luck.
Vicky

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Sun, Feb 15, 2004, 11:00pm
(EST-1) From: ('Kate)
On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 22:15:55 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
lestrnge)

Snipped stuff here and there:
'Kate wrote:
Too bad she wasn't checking receipts for condoms. Woulda saved her
time/trouble.

Yeah , but if they used the condoms there would not have been a
pregnancy and this was not their plan see.

----------------

'Kate wrote
Going to court isn't going to help that but it sounds more like that's
what the other grandparents are expecting and they're not going to budge
to improve communications if that's how it is. Too bad, too... the baby
would do better if there was an atmosphere of friendliness and
cooperation.

It is not so much "not a friendly atmosphere" when they come to the
house, but more like "what isn't said is better". I am guilty of
avoiding a confrontation. Over the past few hours I have reached a
feeling of being content with just helping the kids in my way, which is
financial and moral support and advice when asked. I will not worry
myself with what his parents don't do, that is their problem . As far as
the financial responsibility Hell they are 16 just what can they really
do right now? Not much and yeah they better appreciate all we are doing
when they grow up darn it ! I did have a talk with Jimmy and Sara today
and asked them what they thought about opening a joint account for their
future and deposit say at least10 bucks a week show me they understand
their responsibility to one another and their baby. They agreed and I
will hold them to it. As they earn more they will add to it . I'm
feeling better now. I know they need to commit to being responsible and
how much this is good for them to do.

--------------

'Kate wrote:
Parents can't and shouldn't fix everything... if we did that, the
children would never feel accomplishment, pride, and they'd continue to
behave like irresponsible children.

You are so right and I know I have issues with myself being to
protective and controlling with Sara , she is so much better than two
years ago.....she has much better control of her way out
behaviour....errr... well the sex thing was obviously not in control..
.....but like in school and at home she has accomplished so much.
although a different child (black hair this week ) she's been red
,orange, black with blond streaks, you know how it is.............Oh
well !
thanks "Kate you are very kind, I appreciate that you took the time
for me.

Bev


'Kate

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:33pm From:
(P.Fritz)


Paul wrote:
It is quite obvious you are enabling your daughter........she made adult
decisions to gestate and birth a child, she needs to act like an adult
and provide for it as well. Your 'taking' financial responsibility is
going to do more har than good.

Hey Paul..........My crap detector says someone be slinging crap my
way. Now I am not usually hard to talk to and I even listen to other
peoples opinions well. I think your opinion/advice???? has a few thorns
in there... ouch ! So if I may defend myself and my daughter would ya
be easy with me please :)

Yes alright already !!!!!!!! I am an enabler
NOT!.... listen .........She is my baby, she is 16 , she has mental
health issues, she made a mistake she played with fire and got
burned.... I am her mother, I am her role model, I am who she knows will
never turn away from her, the one she can depend on, the one that is
still raising her to adulthood, teaching her , preparing her to survive
in this crazy world to stand on her own two feet a strong vital woman .
She is still growing up and until she is grown up which may be around
the age of what....... say 30 <wink> maybe I will have done my job
right. In the mean time I wonder if your daughter made the same mistake
if you would throw her out in the cold with the baby?????? Yes I am
taking financial responsibility, I do not know too many if any 16 yr old
kids that can support themselves let alone a baby too. Yeah this is
screwed up isn't it? I could toss em all out on their butts to live or
maybe die on the street and that would teach her huh what loving parents
really are huh ?????
Sometimes I wonder about people and you are making me
wonder................

[V]

"P.Fritz" > wrote in message
...
>
in response to Vicky's comment on the set percent of child support that non
custodial parents are required to pay by law:

> 33% of what? What YOU chose to spend on the kids?

There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons, Academics....shall I
continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary support to raise
children if you do not have a high income.

>
> BTW.....since the is absolutlely no restrictions on what YOU spend the money
> on, it is for you.
>

Of course there is: I have a conscious! If I were a crack headed whore,
maybe I would buy dope with it. For now, I choose to utilize the money to aid
in my children's future.
I was trying to say something totally different and I believe you misconstrued
it.
V

[V]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
>
> > Hi Vicky, the advice you have given helps a lot ! I have taken way too
> much of the responsibility away from these kids and I will indeed need
> to continue to raise my own daughter though Right?

Indeed. I tell you, I can give this advice, because I was the daughter
depending on my mom for help. She prevailed as well as I.

She is doing a
> wonderful job with Jaime .

J'aime means LOVE in the French language. I like that name.

As is Jimmy.
> I have had a hard time pulling away the well meaning motherly advice to
> both of them. I know it was our choice to take on so much while they
> attend school but for the babies well being . We did not want to take
> her out in the bitter cold to a day care situation at 2 months old. So
> we accommodated that. I still stand there on it too ! We do need to ease
> out of the picture a little bit and give them more to decide for
> themselves but again they are kids and damn they don't think right some
> times. It is hard to stop parenting your 16 year old . I really do not
> know how?
> I'm struggling here..........Bev


It is hard to watch them take knocks from life. My kids are 8 and 10 now and I
hate to say, "don't do that you are going to ...." and bam. They learn though.
Hey, at least they both took responsiblity of some sort. Just keep plugging
Bev...kids and teens (oh I dread these days) do not come with guided animated
instructions. I wished they did and I would find out how to keep Catie from
"rocking with the guitar" on my bed. She is now doing jumps so I must go.
Take care.
V
>
>

[Joy]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >She has said in
> >anger to her b/f that his parents do nothing to help and hers do
> >everything ,

Maybe it would help to point out that his parents are also missing out on
part of the joy, and because of their choice will not have the same bond
with the baby that you and your partner will.

I heard this and felt good that she sees all we do and sad
>
> See, seeing her resent her boyfriend because her mom does more than his
parents
> should not make you feel good. It should worry you. What that child
needs is
> stable mother and father, together if possible. Already this is a bad set
up
> for the father- he's set up to be a failure compared to his girlfriend's
> mother. This is going to make him resent you, resent her, and maybe even
> withdraw more from his child because he feels he can't live up.

It might help them both to remind them on occasion that this is only a
temporary situation - that you are happy to help out until they can finish
their educations and prepare themselves to be self-supporting, and when that
time comes the situation will be vastly different. I'd also suggest pointing
out to them that a large part of taking care of their daughter right now
*is* preparing themselves to take better care of her in the future - that
finishing school and preparing for the adult world really are part of taking
care of their baby.

Best wishes to you all,
Joy

[Joy]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
>
> I am leaning towards suggesting to Sara to get legal custody of the baby

Isn't Sara the baby's mother? Then doesn't she already have legal custody?
Or am I missing something?

Joy

[Bebe lestrnge]

snipped other stuff
percentage of child support

Vicky wrote;
There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons, Academics....shall I
continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary support to
raise children if you do not have a high income.

Bev wrote;
I agree with you on this Vicky, I have received child support for my
girls for about 15 years now. I have accepted 50.00 per week per child
and that has come to 5200.00 a year. Now we all know it cost way more
than that to raise two kids. This is not even half of the cost.
When I make around 22,000.00 a year and there is no savings. I go
without to give my kids what they need and yeah sometimes just what they
want . Cause I can. I am not complaining, but it urks my craw when
people make child support a negative issue. It is not, the children
deserve it and a whole lot more than they get most of the time if they
are getting it at all from both moms or dads. Just my opinion . Bev

[Paul Fritz]

"V" > wrote in message
...
>
> "P.Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> in response to Vicky's comment on the set percent of child support that
non
> custodial parents are required to pay by law:
>
> > 33% of what? What YOU chose to spend on the kids?
>
> There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons, Academics....shall I
> continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary support to
raise
> children if you do not have a high income.
>
> >
> > BTW.....since the is absolutlely no restrictions on what YOU spend the
money
> > on, it is for you.
> >
>
> Of course there is: I have a conscious! If I were a crack headed
whore,
> maybe I would buy dope with it. For now, I choose to utilize the money
to aid
> in my children's future.
> I was trying to say something totally different and I believe you
misconstrued
> it.

Then what were you trying to say?

> V
>
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
> snipped other stuff
> percentage of child support
>
> Vicky wrote;
> There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons, Academics....shall I
> continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary support to
> raise children if you do not have a high income.
>
> Bev wrote;
> I agree with you on this Vicky, I have received child support for my
> girls for about 15 years now. I have accepted 50.00 per week per child
> and that has come to 5200.00 a year. Now we all know it cost way more
> than that to raise two kids. This is not even half of the cost.
> When I make around 22,000.00 a year and there is no savings. I go
> without to give my kids what they need and yeah sometimes just what they
> want . Cause I can. I am not complaining, but it urks my craw when
> people make child support a negative issue. It is not, the children
> deserve it and a whole lot more than they get most of the time if they
> are getting it at all from both moms or dads. Just my opinion . Bev
>

Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent spends on their
child, without ANY accounting of how that money is spent by the other
parent. It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other types of
parents. It is patently unconstitutional, but since it is so PC, it is
allowed to continue. It has also further eroded the stability of marriage
in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births. It allows
women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and unilateral
choices. It irks me when people so blindly accept it as 'the way it should
be'

[Tiffany]

Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
...
> snipped other stuff
> percentage of child support
>
> Vicky wrote;
> There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons, Academics....shall I
> continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary support to
> raise children if you do not have a high income.
>
> Bev wrote;
> I agree with you on this Vicky, I have received child support for my
> girls for about 15 years now. I have accepted 50.00 per week per child
> and that has come to 5200.00 a year. Now we all know it cost way more
> than that to raise two kids. This is not even half of the cost.
> When I make around 22,000.00 a year and there is no savings. I go
> without to give my kids what they need and yeah sometimes just what they
> want . Cause I can. I am not complaining, but it urks my craw when
> people make child support a negative issue. It is not, the children
> deserve it and a whole lot more than they get most of the time if they
> are getting it at all from both moms or dads. Just my opinion . Bev
>

The support isn't meant to pay for ALL your kids needs. $100.00 a week for 2
kids..... how much do you think it does cost for 2 kids if $100.00 isn't
enough? And actually your annual income is 27,200 with that support you get.
Alot of folks here get NO financial help btw.

T

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:33pm From:
> (P.Fritz)
>
>
> Paul wrote:
> It is quite obvious you are enabling your daughter........she made adult
> decisions to gestate and birth a child, she needs to act like an adult
> and provide for it as well. Your 'taking' financial responsibility is
> going to do more har than good.
>
> Hey Paul..........My crap detector says someone be slinging crap my
> way. Now I am not usually hard to talk to and I even listen to other
> peoples opinions well. I think your opinion/advice???? has a few thorns
> in there... ouch ! So if I may defend myself and my daughter would ya
> be easy with me please :)

Nope, you just don't want to hear opiniions that you don't agree with.

>
> Yes alright already !!!!!!!! I am an enabler
> NOT!.... listen .........She is my baby, she is 16 , she has mental
> health issues, she made a mistake she played with fire and got
> burned.... I am her mother, I am her role model, I am who she knows will
> never turn away from her, the one she can depend on, the one that is
> still raising her to adulthood, teaching her , preparing her to survive
> in this crazy world to stand on her own two feet a strong vital woman .
> She is still growing up and until she is grown up which may be around
> the age of what....... say 30 <wink> maybe I will have done my job
> right. In the mean time I wonder if your daughter made the same mistake
> if you would throw her out in the cold with the baby?????? Yes I am
> taking financial responsibility, I do not know too many if any 16 yr old
> kids that can support themselves let alone a baby too. Yeah this is
> screwed up isn't it? I could toss em all out on their butts to live or
> maybe die on the street and that would teach her huh what loving parents
> really are huh ?????

Did you read the enabling drivel before you posted it? and you sit around
and wonder why she is in the situation that she is? You are dooming her
and your grandchild to repeat the same cycle. You are how old and making
22k a year. You have a live in 'partner' Some role model.


> Sometimes I wonder about people and you are making me
> wonder................
>

There is no wondering about you.

[Tiffany]

Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Sun, Feb 15, 2004, 8:35pm
> (EST+5) From: (Joelle)
>
>
> Am I thinking right to feel that his parents should be doing something
> here ??????
>
> -------------
> You can feel whatever you want, but you can't make them help. And truth
> be told, it's not his parent's responsiblity, nor is it yours. It's the
> kids.
>
> Hello Joelle, Thanks for responding, Yeah it is the kids responsibility,
> I think I have known that but seem to keep coming back to how the heck
> can/will they be able to do it on their own ? They just haven't got the
> ability at their age to . I know I took the responsibility to help them
> and just could not see another way that would be acceptable to me I
> guess. ( adoption or abortion were never a choice for me) So I see where
> I made this decision to at least be financially responsible until the
> kids finish school and can work and find their way out into the big bad
> world ,ya know?
>
> --------------------------
> unless your daughter gives up custody, you have no control.
>
> Hmmmmmm no control is probably more of the problem for me huh?
> ------------------------
> You aren't the parent. She is.
>
> Yep you are right, and it is so difficult to have to let your child
> struggle through the hard stuff, but that is how they grow.
>
> -----------------------
> I'm not saying it's not a great thing that you are stepping in for this
> child, but it's gonna get dicey and if his parents haven't stepped up to
> the plate by now, they probably aren't going to.
>
> right again Joelle, They won't be and I guess again I am just ticked
> about their lack of consideration . I guess I should of realised after
> his mother refused to attend the baby shower that things would be this
> way. My daughter has mentioned "child support" from her boyfriend and I
> was truthful to her .....I said" it is your right to do so but think it
> through it could cause a problem with him and his parents." So far she
> has let it be. He does buy the babies diapers and wipes which does help
> a great deal. This is so hard for me to stand back and I thank you for
> your honesty with me.
> ----------------
>
> Good luck.
>
> Thanks! Bev


The other parents just may not feel its their job to raise their grandkids.
You can hardly fault them for that. As for the ex paying child support, does
he even work? part-time? How much support do you think he can pay at this
point? If he is in the kids life and helping with diapers, your daughter and
you should leave it alone.

T

[Paul Fritz]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
> ...
> > snipped other stuff
> > percentage of child support
> >
> > Vicky wrote;
> > There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons, Academics....shall
I
> > continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary support
to
> > raise children if you do not have a high income.
> >
> > Bev wrote;
> > I agree with you on this Vicky, I have received child support for my
> > girls for about 15 years now. I have accepted 50.00 per week per
child
> > and that has come to 5200.00 a year. Now we all know it cost way more
> > than that to raise two kids. This is not even half of the cost.
> > When I make around 22,000.00 a year and there is no savings. I go
> > without to give my kids what they need and yeah sometimes just what
they
> > want . Cause I can. I am not complaining, but it urks my craw when
> > people make child support a negative issue. It is not, the children
> > deserve it and a whole lot more than they get most of the time if they
> > are getting it at all from both moms or dads. Just my opinion . Bev
> >
>
> The support isn't meant to pay for ALL your kids needs. $100.00 a week
for 2
> kids..... how much do you think it does cost for 2 kids if $100.00 isn't
> enough? And actually your annual income is 27,200 with that support you
get.
> Alot of folks here get NO financial help btw.

Since CS is after tax income, that equates to closer to 30k in 'income'
dollars.



>
> T
>
>

[Tiffany]

Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:16am
> (EST+5) From: (Joelle)
>
> Well, what's done is done, but that really was the question they should
> have been asking themselves when they decided to raise the baby.
>
> Yes Joelle I was a very large part of the decision. O.K. so I asked for
> this.....
> because I do not believe in abortion as a form of birth control, because
> I could not live with knowing I had a granddaughter out there being
> raised by strangers as good as that is for some people , just not me.
> Because after having suffered the loss of my partner to death not that
> long ago , this was maybe a joy to hold unto....I am digging deep so
> maybe I will be understood. Truth be told They got pregnant on purpose,
> so they told me, after I went off on a rant about how stupid they were
> and did they realise how much life will change as they know it. My final
> cry while I digested what was happening I hugged my daughter and told
> her I would support them as best I could that I loved her no matter what
> mistakes or how wrong I think what she does is and it has always been
> that way and always will. I am part of the problem and this I know. I
> certainly am not letting these kids off easy. They do and have been left
> to take care of the baby I am here when I am not working and I work full
> time . I took 2 weeks after the baby was born "family leave" to be sure
> my daughter could handle herself with the baby. I know I have to learn
> to keep out of most of this and I do understand what you are saying .
>
> --------
>
>
> There's the rub. Abortion or adoption was never your choice to make. It
> was theirs and you made it easy to choose to raise the baby because they
> knew they could depend on you. Now I kind of think you are stuck. They
> made the choice expecting your help. If they didn't have your help maybe
> they would have made a different choice, but what's done is done. I
> think you are kind of obligated, more so than the boys parents because
> they made it clear in the beginning that they weren't going to take
> responsibility for the child.
>
> His mother totally peaked when they told her, I went with them for moral
> support.
> From yelling at them that they were idiots to there was no way they were
> gonna raise a welfare baby, to WIC was out of the question . The woman
> was way out there and scared the crap out of them. I was
> speechless..........
>
> WIC is a wonderful program and I was not gonna let her rantings stop us
> from using it. As is the welfare program When my marriage first broke up
> I had nothing and these programs helped me back on my own. I have been a
> working member of society for at least 20 years ! We don't need the
> welfare program and that is good. If we did yes I would of directed my
> daughter that way.
>
> I see how getting started here can take many twists and turns, deep down
> I knew.
> I am looking at myself in a different light.
> thanks for your honesty again. Bev
>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle
>

Wow.. they got pregnant on purpose??? Yeah, I think they would be dealing
with this on their own if that were the case. The child can be in daycare
will the daughter is in school, ect. Honestly it sounds as though you wanted
them to have the baby for all your reasons. So many grandparents step in and
take care of kids that can be given to adults who are ready for parenthood
and the lifelong commitment. I have seen grandparents who do that end up
taking care of the child for 18 years too. Read what you posted above again.
You should have gotten a puppy instead.

T

[Paul Fritz]

"Joy" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I am leaning towards suggesting to Sara to get legal custody of the
baby
>
> Isn't Sara the baby's mother? Then doesn't she already have legal
custody?
> Or am I missing something?
>
> Joy
>
>

Ironically, petitioning the court for 'custody' (and of course CS)
actually gives the father (nd his family) more rights than if she didn't,
AND would open the door to the mother losing custody to the father.

>

[Tiffany]

Joy > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I am leaning towards suggesting to Sara to get legal custody of the baby
>
> Isn't Sara the baby's mother? Then doesn't she already have legal
custody?
> Or am I missing something?
>
> Joy
>
>
>

No.... and what would be the benefit to a court battle for legal custody? Do
you think that the father is going to kidnap the baby? (that comment to
Bebe, not to Joy)

T

[Tiffany]

Paul Fritz > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > snipped other stuff
> > > percentage of child support
> > >
> > > Vicky wrote;
> > > There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons,
Academics....shall
> I
> > > continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary
support
> to
> > > raise children if you do not have a high income.
> > >
> > > Bev wrote;
> > > I agree with you on this Vicky, I have received child support for my
> > > girls for about 15 years now. I have accepted 50.00 per week per
> child
> > > and that has come to 5200.00 a year. Now we all know it cost way
more
> > > than that to raise two kids. This is not even half of the cost.
> > > When I make around 22,000.00 a year and there is no savings. I go
> > > without to give my kids what they need and yeah sometimes just what
> they
> > > want . Cause I can. I am not complaining, but it urks my craw when
> > > people make child support a negative issue. It is not, the children
> > > deserve it and a whole lot more than they get most of the time if
they
> > > are getting it at all from both moms or dads. Just my opinion . Bev
> > >
> >
> > The support isn't meant to pay for ALL your kids needs. $100.00 a week
> for 2
> > kids..... how much do you think it does cost for 2 kids if $100.00
isn't
> > enough? And actually your annual income is 27,200 with that support
you
> get.
> > Alot of folks here get NO financial help btw.
>
> Since CS is after tax income, that equates to closer to 30k in 'income'
> dollars.
>
>
>
> >


Good morning Paul..... get spammed lately? ;) BTW... I have been busy as
hell and not able to answer emails. Busy is good though..... it means more
money. :)

T

[lm]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:55:39 -0500, "Tiffany"
> wrote:

>
>Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>>
>> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:16am
>> (EST+5) From: (Joelle)
>>
>> Well, what's done is done, but that really was the question they should
>> have been asking themselves when they decided to raise the baby.
>>
>> Yes Joelle I was a very large part of the decision. O.K. so I asked for
>> this.....
>> because I do not believe in abortion as a form of birth control, because
>> I could not live with knowing I had a granddaughter out there being
>> raised by strangers as good as that is for some people , just not me.
>> Because after having suffered the loss of my partner to death not that
>> long ago , this was maybe a joy to hold unto....I am digging deep so
>> maybe I will be understood. Truth be told They got pregnant on purpose,
>> so they told me, after I went off on a rant about how stupid they were
>> and did they realise how much life will change as they know it. My final
>> cry while I digested what was happening I hugged my daughter and told
>> her I would support them as best I could that I loved her no matter what
>> mistakes or how wrong I think what she does is and it has always been
>> that way and always will. I am part of the problem and this I know. I
>> certainly am not letting these kids off easy. They do and have been left
>> to take care of the baby I am here when I am not working and I work full
>> time . I took 2 weeks after the baby was born "family leave" to be sure
>> my daughter could handle herself with the baby. I know I have to learn
>> to keep out of most of this and I do understand what you are saying .
>>
>> --------
>>
>>
>> There's the rub. Abortion or adoption was never your choice to make. It
>> was theirs and you made it easy to choose to raise the baby because they
>> knew they could depend on you. Now I kind of think you are stuck. They
>> made the choice expecting your help. If they didn't have your help maybe
>> they would have made a different choice, but what's done is done. I
>> think you are kind of obligated, more so than the boys parents because
>> they made it clear in the beginning that they weren't going to take
>> responsibility for the child.
>>
>> His mother totally peaked when they told her, I went with them for moral
>> support.
>> From yelling at them that they were idiots to there was no way they were
>> gonna raise a welfare baby, to WIC was out of the question . The woman
>> was way out there and scared the crap out of them. I was
>> speechless..........
>>
>> WIC is a wonderful program and I was not gonna let her rantings stop us
>> from using it. As is the welfare program When my marriage first broke up
>> I had nothing and these programs helped me back on my own. I have been a
>> working member of society for at least 20 years ! We don't need the
>> welfare program and that is good. If we did yes I would of directed my
>> daughter that way.
>>
>> I see how getting started here can take many twists and turns, deep down
>> I knew.
>> I am looking at myself in a different light.
>> thanks for your honesty again. Bev
>>
>> Joelle
>> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
>> Augustine
>> Joelle
>>
>
>Wow.. they got pregnant on purpose??? Yeah, I think they would be dealing
>with this on their own if that were the case. The child can be in daycare
>will the daughter is in school, ect. Honestly it sounds as though you wanted
>them to have the baby for all your reasons. So many grandparents step in and
>take care of kids that can be given to adults who are ready for parenthood
>and the lifelong commitment. I have seen grandparents who do that end up
>taking care of the child for 18 years too. Read what you posted above again.
>You should have gotten a puppy instead.

It's not too late for the baby to be given up for adoption.

lm

[V]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent spends on their
> child, without ANY accounting of how that money is spent by the other
> parent. It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other types of
> parents. It is patently unconstitutional,

Then why did the Appellate Court of Florida rule in Bennett v. Bennett?

but since it is so PC, it is
> allowed to continue. It has also further eroded the stability of marriage
> in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births.

You can not blame out of marriage births on child support.
How can it erode the stability of marriage? Assuming one parent can leave and
live off 33% of the other parents salary?

It allows
> women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and unilateral
> choices.

Most single mothers work and I find that it appauling that you generalize
women and state that they are eluding responsibility.

It irks me when people so blindly accept it as 'the way it should
> be'
>
>

It irks me when people take what is best for the children and twist it to
appear like the non custodial parent is going without to support some gold
diggin' biatch or bassard that he or she injected sperm or casted out an egg
for.
Come on. Do you really believe this is how it truly is?
V

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: percentage of child support

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:14am From:
(Paul=A0Fritz) wrote:

=A0=A0=A0=A0Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent
spends on their child, without ANY accounting of how that
money is spent by the other parent. =A0

Paul, the "guvment" Heh..... as you so put it, would not be mandating
anything if people would support their kids on their own. Why should
the person paying the support control the way it is spent? As long as
the kids have all of what they need it is none of their business.

Paul wrote:
It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other types of parents.
=A0 It is patently unconstitutional, but since it is so PC, it is
allowed to continue. =A0 It has also further eroded the stability of
marriage in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births.
It allows women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and
unilateral choices. =A0 It irks me when people so blindly accept it as
'the way it should be'

Paul, It is obvious you have a big ole chip on your shoulder. Paying
child support is something both men and women alike are responsible for.
Furthermore, the government or court system would not have to be
involved if people weren't assholes when it came to supporting their
children properly. There is no court monitoring the support I receive
and it is not because my childrens father gives a **** it is because his
wife does and she has been the one that sends it to me not him , not
their father. The small percentage this amounts to is peanuts compared
to what a custodial parent puts out to give the children a decent life.
The children deserve to have their needs met. Why is it so important to
you how the money is used if your children are being properly cared for,
have what they need and maybe just a little of what they "want" If by
chance they are living in a shack with no heat , electric or running
water, eating garbage, then yes I agree with you. THAT parent should
not even have custody and wouldn't if I were the other parent. Yes, some
instances are unfair and wrong and child support is getting a bad rep
because of these cases of abuse. such as a woman getting pregnant
intentionally without discussing this with the "donor" and then going
after child support, and I would agree with you again. There are some
custodial parents that do misuse the money intended to help support the
children I know........but you seem to have this all based around women
being the abusers of the system.
I think we are not gonna get along very much and that sucks cause I
really don't like raising my blood pressure.

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: percentage of child support

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
(Tiffany)


The support isn't meant to pay for ALL your kids needs. $100.00 a week
for 2 kids..... how much do you think it does cost for 2 kids if $100.00
isn't enough? And actually your annual income is 27,200 with that
support you get. A lot of folks here get NO financial help btw.
T

Well no **** sherlock ! Tiff I have been raising my kids..... I surely
know that the 100.00 isn't meant to pay it ALL how the hell could it...
Sheesh ! I am 42 years old and have a 22 year old daughter in college
smarty pants. I've been around .
I am glad you can add too ! What is your point? I am not complaining
about the amount I get I am saying that it is far from 1/2 of what it
cost to raise two kids. I'm saying child support helps but it is no big
deal, without it I would survive just like anyone else not getting it. I
have at least 22,000.00 of my own hard earned dollas honey If I went
for my ex's throat according to this percentage crap I would have gotten
200.00 a week I didn't want it, I wanted him to get sober and treat his
daughters with respect, he was supposed to supply medical too, never
happened.

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
(Paul=A0Fritz)
=A0=A0=A0=A0"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:33pm From:
(P.Fritz)
Paul wrote:

=A0=A0=A0=A0Nope, you just don't want to hear opiniions that you don't
agree with.

Well so what, do I have to agree with your opinion ? I don't agree
......Oh Well .
=A0=A0=A0=A0
Paul wrote:
Did you read the enabling drivel before you posted it?

Yep I did :)

and you sit around and wonder why she is in the situation that she is?

Nope I don't :)

You are dooming her and your grandchild to repeat the same cycle.

How ?

You are how old and making 22k a year.

Well I am a 42 year old woman no college education . I cook for 6o
elderly folks in a small nursing home in Pennsylvania.
22k isn't too shabby for no education. But I am a damn good cook !

You have a live in 'partner' =A0
Some role model


Yes I have a live in partner..........
should I be ashamed that we are not married? Well the guvment denies me
that right Or is it that I am a lesbian Paul?
I have dealt with this before and before you or anyone else wants to
judge me
for who or how I love let me assure you that My children lost their
other mother to death and they grieve just like any other child that
lost a parent.....that you can not deny, judge or condemn . **** off

=A0=A0=A0=A0There is no wondering about you.

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:55am From:
(Tiffany)
Tiffany wrote:
Wow.. they got pregnant on purpose??? Yeah, I think they would be
dealing with this on their own if that were the case.



WOW ! how well do you think you could deal with "this" on your own at
16 ? What kind of parent turns their back on their children like this ?
Not me....

Tiffany wrote:
The child can be in daycare will the daughter is in school, ect.
Honestly it sounds as though you wanted them to have the baby for all
your reasons. So many grandparents step in and take care of kids that
can be given to adults who are ready for parenthood and the lifelong
commitment. I have seen grandparents who do that end up taking care of
the child for 18 years too. Read what you posted above again. You should
have gotten a puppy instead.
T

No Tiffany the child is gonna be taken care of by family not strangers .
No Tiffany We accepted they were pregnant and at that point the baby was
already a part of our family. Yes I do not believe in abortion to be
used as a form of birth control and If my daughter wanted to give up the
child I would of asked her to let me adopt the baby because again this
baby was already family and I could not live knowing we gave her away
like that. My grandchildren are as important to me as my children no
matter what sacrifices I have to make. My father instilled a strong
family commitment and I would not let him down either. Nah no puppy we
have two dogs three cats three doves and a dead fish now. You are
showing your lack of heart girl . Not to mention a strong lack of life
experience.

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 8:03am From:
(Tiffany)

Tiffany wrote:
No.... and what would be the benefit to a court battle for legal
custody? Do you think that the father is going to kidnap the baby? (that
comment to Bebe, not to Joy)
T

I believe in most states if the custody of a child is not established as
Legal residential custody in an unmarried or separated relationship ,yes
the father. the parents of the father, the grandmother of the father ,
or maybe even cousin "Vinnie" could kidnap the baby and yes not return
her . and their would be nothing you could do until a court hearing .

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 2:27pm
(EST+5) From: (lm)

It's not too late for the baby to be given up for adoption.

lm


You are not serious right? Is any of what I am saying making any sense.
I will not ever have my own family abandoned, to be part of another
family like that,,,,,why? I have made it clear I am not built that way,
it is not what my father taught me and that is that. My daughter does
not want that and she is doing a fine job and that is the way it is . Oh
and Yes should she ever decide she can't be a good mom then yes I will
indeed raise my geanddaughter. In a heartbeat ........

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: percentage of child support

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 5:42pm
(EST+5) From: (V)

It irks me when people take what is best for the children and twist it
to appear like the non custodial parent is going without to support some
gold diggin' biatch or bassard that he or she injected sperm or casted
out an egg for.
Come on. Do you really believe this is how it truly is? V

It irks me too !
I think he truly does :(

[lm]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:58:17 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
lestrnge) wrote:

>
>Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
>Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 2:27pm
>(EST+5) From: (lm)
>
>It's not too late for the baby to be given up for adoption.
>
>lm
>
>
>You are not serious right? Is any of what I am saying making any sense.
>I will not ever have my own family abandoned, to be part of another
>family like that,,,,,why? I have made it clear I am not built that way,
>it is not what my father taught me and that is that. My daughter does
>not want that and she is doing a fine job and that is the way it is . Oh
>and Yes should she ever decide she can't be a good mom then yes I will
>indeed raise my geanddaughter. In a heartbeat ........

I understand your choice and I'll not mention it again as you've made
your choice clear. However, your comments on adoption (in several of
your posts) compel me to point out that giving up a child for adoption
is not equivalent to abandoning it; it is probably the most selfless
decision someone could possibly make.

lm

[Tiffany]

Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: percentage of child support
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
> (Tiffany)
>
>
> The support isn't meant to pay for ALL your kids needs. $100.00 a week
> for 2 kids..... how much do you think it does cost for 2 kids if $100.00
> isn't enough? And actually your annual income is 27,200 with that
> support you get. A lot of folks here get NO financial help btw.
> T
>
> Well no **** sherlock ! Tiff I have been raising my kids..... I surely
> know that the 100.00 isn't meant to pay it ALL how the hell could it...
> Sheesh ! I am 42 years old and have a 22 year old daughter in college
> smarty pants. I've been around .
> I am glad you can add too ! What is your point? I am not complaining
> about the amount I get I am saying that it is far from 1/2 of what it
> cost to raise two kids. I'm saying child support helps but it is no big
> deal, without it I would survive just like anyone else not getting it. I
> have at least 22,000.00 of my own hard earned dollas honey If I went
> for my ex's throat according to this percentage crap I would have gotten
> 200.00 a week I didn't want it, I wanted him to get sober and treat his
> daughters with respect, he was supposed to supply medical too, never
> happened.
>

So AGAIN, what do you think it costs to raise 2 kids if $100 is far from
1/2? My point was, as it went far over head, was that support isn't meant to
pay for all the kids needs, only half. You stated it costs WAY more then
$50/week per kid to raise them but you managed.

[Tiffany]

Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:55am From:
> (Tiffany)
> Tiffany wrote:
> Wow.. they got pregnant on purpose??? Yeah, I think they would be
> dealing with this on their own if that were the case.
>
>
>
> WOW ! how well do you think you could deal with "this" on your own at
> 16 ? What kind of parent turns their back on their children like this ?
> Not me....

It would be hard to deal with that on your own at 16. BUT THEY WANTED TO
HAVE A BABY! You seem to miss the point again.
>
> Tiffany wrote:
> The child can be in daycare will the daughter is in school, ect.
> Honestly it sounds as though you wanted them to have the baby for all
> your reasons. So many grandparents step in and take care of kids that
> can be given to adults who are ready for parenthood and the lifelong
> commitment. I have seen grandparents who do that end up taking care of
> the child for 18 years too. Read what you posted above again. You should
> have gotten a puppy instead.
> T
>
> No Tiffany the child is gonna be taken care of by family not strangers .
> No Tiffany We accepted they were pregnant and at that point the baby was
> already a part of our family. Yes I do not believe in abortion to be
> used as a form of birth control and If my daughter wanted to give up the
> child I would of asked her to let me adopt the baby because again this
> baby was already family and I could not live knowing we gave her away
> like that. My grandchildren are as important to me as my children no
> matter what sacrifices I have to make. My father instilled a strong
> family commitment and I would not let him down either. Nah no puppy we
> have two dogs three cats three doves and a dead fish now. You are
> showing your lack of heart girl . Not to mention a strong lack of life
> experience.
>

Get real, this baby is all about what you want. Probably the baby you can
share with your partner. Kind of be like you and your partners baby?? Sorry
about your loss in the past though. I never said anything about abortion so
don't bring up **** to me that is irrelevant please. I might be missing some
life experience, I know I didn't purposely get pregnant at the age of 16
only to let my mommy take responsibility. Yeah, that is life experience I
can do without. Luckily one my Mom didn't deal with either. I congratulate
your decision to raise your grandchild and help your daughter and the
father. But you did come here with some 'problems' or complaints as I
recall.

Tiff

[Tiffany]

Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 8:03am From:
> (Tiffany)
>
> Tiffany wrote:
> No.... and what would be the benefit to a court battle for legal
> custody? Do you think that the father is going to kidnap the baby? (that
> comment to Bebe, not to Joy)
> T
>
> I believe in most states if the custody of a child is not established as
> Legal residential custody in an unmarried or separated relationship ,yes
> the father. the parents of the father, the grandmother of the father ,
> or maybe even cousin "Vinnie" could kidnap the baby and yes not return
> her . and their would be nothing you could do until a court hearing .
>

But a court battle can make things between families more tense, is what I
was getting at. I am just throwing another perspective out there as I can
see why one would want to establish legal custody, but also see the effects
of the courts between families.

[V]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
(Paul Fritz)
"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:33pm From:
(P.Fritz)
Paul wrote:

Nope, you just don't want to hear opiniions that you don't
agree with.

Well so what, do I have to agree with your opinion ? I don't agree
......Oh Well .

Paul wrote:
Did you read the enabling drivel before you posted it?

Yep I did :)

and you sit around and wonder why she is in the situation that she is?

Nope I don't :)

You are dooming her and your grandchild to repeat the same cycle.

How ?

You are how old and making 22k a year.

Well I am a 42 year old woman no college education . I cook for 6o
elderly folks in a small nursing home in Pennsylvania.
22k isn't too shabby for no education. But I am a damn good cook !

You have a live in 'partner'
Some role model


Yes I have a live in partner..........
should I be ashamed that we are not married? Well the guvment denies me
that right Or is it that I am a lesbian Paul?

V wrote:
Well if you are, I am glad gays and lesbians are allowed to get married. In
the 50's it was interracial marriages or marriage with "foriegners" were taboo
and it is accepted now. I am thinking it will lower insurance premiums for
family coverage because there will be more in my pool.
My aunt did not marry her live in partner, who is a male, because she would
lose some type of social security benefits. I think people personally should
not cohabitate, for reasons such as the low committment level, persons in and
out of the home, possibly hurting the child....monetary reasons, etc.
but if it is a loving long term relationship, that is a bit different.
Just my two cents.


snip the rest for brevity

[V]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 8:03am From:
> (Tiffany)
>
> Tiffany wrote:
> No.... and what would be the benefit to a court battle for legal
> custody? Do you think that the father is going to kidnap the baby? (that
> comment to Bebe, not to Joy)
> T
>
> I believe in most states if the custody of a child is not established as
> Legal residential custody in an unmarried or separated relationship ,yes
> the father. the parents of the father, the grandmother of the father ,
> or maybe even cousin "Vinnie" could kidnap the baby and yes not return
> her . and their would be nothing you could do until a court hearing .
>

A child is usually vested in the state he or she was born in. There is
interstate custody jurisdiction act. Check it out.
V

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 8:03am From:
> (Tiffany)
>
> Tiffany wrote:
> No.... and what would be the benefit to a court battle for legal
> custody? Do you think that the father is going to kidnap the baby? (that
> comment to Bebe, not to Joy)
> T
>
> I believe in most states if the custody of a child is not established as
> Legal residential custody in an unmarried or separated relationship ,yes
> the father. the parents of the father, the grandmother of the father ,
> or maybe even cousin "Vinnie" could kidnap the baby and yes not return
> her . and their would be nothing you could do until a court hearing .
>

What you 'believe' is irrelevant.

[Paul Fritz]

"lm" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:58:17 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
> lestrnge) wrote:
>
> >
> >Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
> >
> >Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 2:27pm
> >(EST+5) From: (lm)
> >
> >It's not too late for the baby to be given up for adoption.
> >
> >lm
> >
> >
> >You are not serious right? Is any of what I am saying making any sense.
> >I will not ever have my own family abandoned, to be part of another
> >family like that,,,,,why? I have made it clear I am not built that way,
> >it is not what my father taught me and that is that. My daughter does
> >not want that and she is doing a fine job and that is the way it is .
Oh
> >and Yes should she ever decide she can't be a good mom then yes I will
> >indeed raise my geanddaughter. In a heartbeat ........
>
> I understand your choice and I'll not mention it again as you've made
> your choice clear. However, your comments on adoption (in several of
> your posts) compel me to point out that giving up a child for adoption
> is not equivalent to abandoning it; it is probably the most selfless
> decision someone could possibly make.
>
> lm

It is quite evident that this baby is all about the grandmother's wants
and needs, and NOT what is truely in the best interests of the baby, or it's
mother.

>

[Paul Fritz]

"V" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent spends on
their
> > child, without ANY accounting of how that money is spent by the other
> > parent. It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other types
of
> > parents. It is patently unconstitutional,
>
> Then why did the Appellate Court of Florida rule in Bennett v. Bennett?

And that has what bearing on the other 49 states?......whatever the
decision was.

>
> but since it is so PC, it is
> > allowed to continue. It has also further eroded the stability of
marriage
> > in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births.
>
> You can not blame out of marriage births on child support.

Wanna bet?

> How can it erode the stability of marriage?

States that have instituted a default joint physical custody have
experienced a drop in the significant drop in the divorce rate. Combined
with the fact that 70-80% of divorces are the initiated by women. When mom
doesn't get automatic custody and CS, the divorce rate drops.

>Assuming one parent can leave and
> live off 33% of the other parents salary?
>
> It allows
> > women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and unilateral
> > choices.
>
> Most single mothers work and I find that it appauling that you
generalize
> women and state that they are eluding responsibility.

Women have the AAA unilateral choices. They can abort, adopt, or abandon
without the approval or consent of the father. Yet they are NOT solely
financially responsible for those sole and unilateral choices they make.
There is no generalizations.....just a statement of FACT.

>
> It irks me when people so blindly accept it as 'the way it should
> > be'
> >
> >
>
> It irks me when people take what is best for the children and twist it
to
> appear like the non custodial parent is going without to support some
gold
> diggin' biatch or bassard that he or she injected sperm or casted out an
egg
> for.
> Come on. Do you really believe this is how it truly is?

You just don't get it do you?


> V
>
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...

Re: percentage of child support

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:14am From:
(Paul Fritz) wrote:

Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent
spends on their child, without ANY accounting of how that
money is spent by the other parent.

Paul, the "guvment" Heh..... as you so put it, would not be mandating
anything if people would support their kids on their own. Why should
the person paying the support control the way it is spent? As long as
the kids have all of what they need it is none of their business.

<snicker> how very feminist of you.

AND any other conservatory established by the guvmint is required to
account for all funds expended, except for CP's....

Paul wrote:
It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other types of parents.
It is patently unconstitutional, but since it is so PC, it is
allowed to continue. It has also further eroded the stability of
marriage in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births.
It allows women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and
unilateral choices. It irks me when people so blindly accept it as
'the way it should be'

Paul, It is obvious you have a big ole chip on your shoulder.

Don't ASSume what you don't know (apologies to Joelle :-) )

Paying
child support is something both men and women alike are responsible for.

<snicker> a little short on the facts aren't you?

Furthermore, the government or court system would not have to be
involved if people weren't assholes when it came to supporting their
children properly.

<snicker> a little short on the facts aren't you.

There is no court monitoring the support I receive
and it is not because my childrens father gives a **** it is because his
wife does and she has been the one that sends it to me not him , not
their father. The small percentage this amounts to is peanuts compared
to what a custodial parent puts out to give the children a decent life.

<snicker> a little short on the facts aren't you.

The children deserve to have their needs met.

Basic needs only

Why is it so important to
you how the money is used if your children are being properly cared for,
have what they need and maybe just a little of what they "want"

I tell you what, You give me 25/35/45 % of YOUR net income, and I'll
decide how it will be spent, I bet you'd be screaming for an accounting.

If by
chance they are living in a shack with no heat , electric or running
water, eating garbage, then yes I agree with you. THAT parent should
not even have custody and wouldn't if I were the other parent. Yes, some
instances are unfair and wrong and child support is getting a bad rep
because of these cases of abuse. such as a woman getting pregnant
intentionally without discussing this with the "donor" and then going
after child support, and I would agree with you again. There are some
custodial parents that do misuse the money intended to help support the
children I know........but you seem to have this all based around women
being the abusers of the system.

Women compose 90% of CP's, by their choice

I think we are not gonna get along very much and that sucks cause I
really don't like raising my blood pressure.

I don't give a rat's ass about 'getting along'

[Paul Fritz]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
> >
> > Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:55am
From:
> > (Tiffany)
> > Tiffany wrote:
> > Wow.. they got pregnant on purpose??? Yeah, I think they would be
> > dealing with this on their own if that were the case.
> >
> >
> >
> > WOW ! how well do you think you could deal with "this" on your own at
> > 16 ? What kind of parent turns their back on their children like this
?
> > Not me....
>
> It would be hard to deal with that on your own at 16. BUT THEY WANTED TO
> HAVE A BABY! You seem to miss the point again.

Seems to be an ongoing habit of hers.


> >
> > Tiffany wrote:
> > The child can be in daycare will the daughter is in school, ect.
> > Honestly it sounds as though you wanted them to have the baby for all
> > your reasons. So many grandparents step in and take care of kids that
> > can be given to adults who are ready for parenthood and the lifelong
> > commitment. I have seen grandparents who do that end up taking care of
> > the child for 18 years too. Read what you posted above again. You
should
> > have gotten a puppy instead.
> > T
> >
> > No Tiffany the child is gonna be taken care of by family not strangers
..
> > No Tiffany We accepted they were pregnant and at that point the baby
was
> > already a part of our family. Yes I do not believe in abortion to be
> > used as a form of birth control and If my daughter wanted to give up
the
> > child I would of asked her to let me adopt the baby because again this
> > baby was already family and I could not live knowing we gave her away
> > like that. My grandchildren are as important to me as my children no
> > matter what sacrifices I have to make. My father instilled a strong
> > family commitment and I would not let him down either. Nah no puppy
we
> > have two dogs three cats three doves and a dead fish now. You are
> > showing your lack of heart girl . Not to mention a strong lack of
life
> > experience.
> >
>
> Get real, this baby is all about what you want.

That wasn't to hard to figure out ;-)

>Probably the baby you can
> share with your partner. Kind of be like you and your partners baby??
Sorry
> about your loss in the past though. I never said anything about abortion
so
> don't bring up **** to me that is irrelevant please. I might be missing
some
> life experience, I know I didn't purposely get pregnant at the age of 16
> only to let my mommy take responsibility. Yeah, that is life experience
I
> can do without. Luckily one my Mom didn't deal with either. I
congratulate
> your decision to raise your grandchild and help your daughter and the
> father. But you did come here with some 'problems' or complaints as I
> recall.
>
> Tiff
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> Paul Fritz > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Bebe lestrnge > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > snipped other stuff
> > > > percentage of child support
> > > >
> > > > Vicky wrote;
> > > > There is no choice. Food, Home, Clothing, Lessons,
> Academics....shall
> > I
> > > > continue? You are a single parent, you know it takes monetary
> support
> > to
> > > > raise children if you do not have a high income.
> > > >
> > > > Bev wrote;
> > > > I agree with you on this Vicky, I have received child support
for my
> > > > girls for about 15 years now. I have accepted 50.00 per week
per
> > child
> > > > and that has come to 5200.00 a year. Now we all know it cost
way
> more
> > > > than that to raise two kids. This is not even half of the cost.
> > > > When I make around 22,000.00 a year and there is no savings. I
go
> > > > without to give my kids what they need and yeah sometimes just
what
> > they
> > > > want . Cause I can. I am not complaining, but it urks my craw
when
> > > > people make child support a negative issue. It is not, the
children
> > > > deserve it and a whole lot more than they get most of the time
if
> they
> > > > are getting it at all from both moms or dads. Just my opinion .
Bev
> > > >
> > >
> > > The support isn't meant to pay for ALL your kids needs. $100.00 a
week
> > for 2
> > > kids..... how much do you think it does cost for 2 kids if $100.00
> isn't
> > > enough? And actually your annual income is 27,200 with that
support
> you
> > get.
> > > Alot of folks here get NO financial help btw.
> >
> > Since CS is after tax income, that equates to closer to 30k in
'income'
> > dollars.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
>
>
> Good morning Paul..... get spammed lately? ;) BTW... I have been busy
as
> hell and not able to answer emails. Busy is good though..... it means
more
> money. :)

You are such a tease!!!!!!

>
> T
>
>

[V]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "V" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >> Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent spends on
> their
> > > child, without ANY accounting of how that money is spent by the other
> > > parent. It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other types
> of
> > > parents. It is patently unconstitutional,
> >
> > Then why did the Appellate Court of Florida rule in Bennett v. Bennett?
>
> And that has what bearing on the other 49 states?......whatever the
> decision was.

Usually other states follow other states in these types of decisions.
A factor in child support, which occurs in all states.

>
> >
> > but since it is so PC, it is
> > > allowed to continue. It has also further eroded the stability of
> marriage
> > > in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births.
> >
> > You can not blame out of marriage births on child support.
>
> Wanna bet?


Sure.
>
> > How can it erode the stability of marriage?
>
> States that have instituted a default joint physical custody have
> experienced a drop in the significant drop in the divorce rate. Combined
> with the fact that 70-80% of divorces are the initiated by women. When mom
> doesn't get automatic custody and CS, the divorce rate drops.
>

And what percentage is because of the male's infidelity? Lies, More lies and
statistics..... The new significant drop has been how long? Other factors
should be correlated with the drop. A tremendous drop can not be determined
without much more study. Was it a covenant marriage state? What were the other
things that would have assisted in the big drop?


> >Assuming one parent can leave and
> > live off 33% of the other parents salary?
> >
> > It allows
> > > women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and unilateral
> > > choices.
> >
> > Most single mothers work and I find that it appauling that you
> generalize
> > women and state that they are eluding responsibility.
>
> Women have the AAA unilateral choices. They can abort, adopt, or abandon
> without the approval or consent of the father. Yet they are NOT solely
> financially responsible for those sole and unilateral choices they make.
> There is no generalizations.....just a statement of FACT.
>

We do have choices , we ahem, women....
You sound like you have been burnt seriously and these "unilateral triple
choices" you speak of are a sore spot. Do not generalize women like this and
I won't consider my run in with you as a predetermination that all men are
asswipes.


> >
> > It irks me when people so blindly accept it as 'the way it should
> > > be'
> > >
> > >
> >
> > It irks me when people take what is best for the children and twist it
> to
> > appear like the non custodial parent is going without to support some
> gold
> > diggin' biatch or bassard that he or she injected sperm or casted out an
> egg
> > for.
> > Come on. Do you really believe this is how it truly is?
>
> You just don't get it do you?
>
>
> > V
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

Obviously you don't get "it" either. Literally!
I am done with you.
V

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2004, 12:37am
(EST+5) From: (lm)
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:58:17 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
lestrnge) wrote:
Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 2:27pm
(EST+5) From: (lm)


However, your comments on adoption (in several of your posts) compel me
to point out that giving up a child for adoption is not equivalent to
abandoning it; it is probably the most selfless decision someone could
possibly make.
lm

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2004, 12:37am
(EST+5) From: (lm)
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:58:17 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
lestrnge) wrote:
Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 2:27pm
(EST+5) From: (lm)


However, your comments on adoption (in several of your posts) compel me
to point out that giving up a child for adoption is not equivalent to
abandoning it; it is probably the most selfless decision someone could
possibly make.
lm

I am sorry, I honestly did not mean to make it sound that way.
Adoption is so important and I know that. What I mean is that as a
choice for my family I can't give up a child . I can't do it. I keep
thinking how awful I would feel wondeing for the rest of my life , and
worrying too.

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: percentage of child support

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
(Tiffany)

So AGAIN, what do you think it costs to raise 2 kids if $100 is far from
1/2? My point was, as it went far over head, was that support isn't
meant to pay for all the kids needs, only half. You stated it costs WAY
more then $50/week per kid to raise
them but you managed.

Yeah right way over my head......I don't see why you said it in the
first place as if I didn't already know this. What do I think it costs?
Beats the heck out of me, just a lot more and my point was based around
the complaining whiner on this group about the child support system. I
have survived , I work hard to do so. If my childrens survival was based
on both of us paying only 33% of our incomes my kids would have gone
without a lot of what they did have because I put out a lot more . That
includes a college education.

[Joelle]

>What I mean is that as a
>choice for my family I can't give up a child . I can't do it. I keep
>thinking how awful I would feel wondeing for the rest of my life , and
>worrying too.

Kind of a selfish way to look at it, though, don't you think? Maybe if you saw
from the interests of the child, it would look a little different.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Tiffany]

Paul Fritz > wrote in message
...
>
> "lm" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 18:58:17 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
> > lestrnge) wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
> > >
> > >Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 2:27pm
> > >(EST+5) From: (lm)
> > >
> > >It's not too late for the baby to be given up for adoption.
> > >
> > >lm
> > >
> > >
> > >You are not serious right? Is any of what I am saying making any
sense.
> > >I will not ever have my own family abandoned, to be part of another
> > >family like that,,,,,why? I have made it clear I am not built that
way,
> > >it is not what my father taught me and that is that. My daughter does
> > >not want that and she is doing a fine job and that is the way it is .
> Oh
> > >and Yes should she ever decide she can't be a good mom then yes I
will
> > >indeed raise my geanddaughter. In a heartbeat ........
> >
> > I understand your choice and I'll not mention it again as you've made
> > your choice clear. However, your comments on adoption (in several of
> > your posts) compel me to point out that giving up a child for adoption
> > is not equivalent to abandoning it; it is probably the most selfless
> > decision someone could possibly make.
> >
> > lm
>
> It is quite evident that this baby is all about the grandmother's wants
> and needs, and NOT what is truely in the best interests of the baby, or
it's
> mother.
>

Its sometimes hard for a grandparent to see a grandbaby go to another
family. Especially of they have none. This women already has a few. My
mother was insistent that my baby not be given up, that she would help tons,
ect. But she did make it clear she wasn't going to raise another child. She
has been a great help but now she is older and ill. Had she at that point
decided to take on a baby, she would be having a very hard time at it now.
Actually, she couldn't physically do it. I have seen this happen with many
grandparents who take care of grandkids. The kids suffer in the end as the
are not able to live a normal kids life full of activity and fun.

T

[P.Fritz]

"V" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "V" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > >> Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent spends
on
> > their
> > > > child, without ANY accounting of how that money is spent by the
other
> > > > parent. It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other
types
> > of
> > > > parents. It is patently unconstitutional,
> > >
> > > Then why did the Appellate Court of Florida rule in Bennett v.
Bennett?
> >
> > And that has what bearing on the other 49 states?......whatever the
> > decision was.
>
> Usually other states follow other states in these types of decisions.
> A factor in child support, which occurs in all states.

No, State Court opinions hod almost no value in other state courts unless
they have been challenged in Fed. court and upheld.

>
> >
> > >
> > > but since it is so PC, it is
> > > > allowed to continue. It has also further eroded the stability of
> > marriage
> > > > in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births.
> > >
> > > You can not blame out of marriage births on child support.
> >
> > Wanna bet?
>
>
> Sure.
> >
> > > How can it erode the stability of marriage?
> >
> > States that have instituted a default joint physical custody have
> > experienced a drop in the significant drop in the divorce rate.
Combined
> > with the fact that 70-80% of divorces are the initiated by women. When
mom
> > doesn't get automatic custody and CS, the divorce rate drops.
> >
>
> And what percentage is because of the male's infidelity?

Low, as is for abuse. The number one reason is women wanting to 'find
themselves' or wanting to move on etc.

>Lies, More lies and
> statistics..... The new significant drop has been how long? Other factors
> should be correlated with the drop. A tremendous drop can not be
determined
> without much more study. Was it a covenant marriage state? What were the
other
> things that would have assisted in the big drop?

No.

>
>
> > >Assuming one parent can leave and
> > > live off 33% of the other parents salary?
> > >
> > > It allows
> > > > women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and
unilateral
> > > > choices.
> > >
> > > Most single mothers work and I find that it appauling that you
> > generalize
> > > women and state that they are eluding responsibility.
> >
> > Women have the AAA unilateral choices. They can abort, adopt, or
abandon
> > without the approval or consent of the father. Yet they are NOT solely
> > financially responsible for those sole and unilateral choices they make.
> > There is no generalizations.....just a statement of FACT.
> >
>
> We do have choices , we ahem, women....
> You sound like you have been burnt seriously and these "unilateral triple
> choices" you speak of are a sore spot. Do not generalize women like this
and
> I won't consider my run in with you as a predetermination that all men are
> asswipes.

YAWN.....in other words you cannot refute the FACT that women have sole and
unilateral choices that they are not soley financially responsible for.

And ASSuming anything about me will just make you look foolish



>
>
> > >
> > > It irks me when people so blindly accept it as 'the way it should
> > > > be'
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > It irks me when people take what is best for the children and twist
it
> > to
> > > appear like the non custodial parent is going without to support
some
> > gold
> > > diggin' biatch or bassard that he or she injected sperm or casted
out an
> > egg
> > > for.
> > > Come on. Do you really believe this is how it truly is?
> >
> > You just don't get it do you?
> >
> >
> > > V
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Obviously you don't get "it" either. Literally!
> I am done with you.

YAWN......if you can't take the heat......................


> V
>
>
>

[P.Fritz]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
(Paul Fritz)
"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:33pm From:
(P.Fritz)
Paul wrote:

Nope, you just don't want to hear opiniions that you don't
agree with.

Well so what, do I have to agree with your opinion ? I don't agree
......Oh Well .

Paul wrote:
Did you read the enabling drivel before you posted it?

Yep I did :)

and you sit around and wonder why she is in the situation that she is?

Nope I don't :)

You are dooming her and your grandchild to repeat the same cycle.

How ?

You are how old and making 22k a year.

Well I am a 42 year old woman no college education . I cook for 6o
elderly folks in a small nursing home in Pennsylvania.
22k isn't too shabby for no education. But I am a damn good cook !

You have a live in 'partner'
Some role model


Yes I have a live in partner..........
should I be ashamed that we are not married? Well the guvment denies me
that right Or is it that I am a lesbian Paul?
I have dealt with this before and before you or anyone else wants to
judge me
for who or how I love let me assure you that My children lost their
other mother to death and they grieve just like any other child that
lost a parent.....that you can not deny, judge or condemn . **** off

Some role model Just more evidence that it is all about YOU and not the
kids.


There is no wondering about you.

[P.Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:04:31 -0500, "Paul Fritz"
> >
> >
> > "V" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >
> > > "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > >> Child support is the guvmint mandating what ONE parent spends on
> >their
> > > > child, without ANY accounting of how that money is spent by the
other
> > > > parent. It further sets a different for NCP's vs. ALL other
types
> >of
> > > > parents. It is patently unconstitutional,
> > >
> > > Then why did the Appellate Court of Florida rule in Bennett v.
Bennett?
> >
> > And that has what bearing on the other 49 states?......whatever the
> >decision was.
> >
> > >
> > > but since it is so PC, it is
> > > > allowed to continue. It has also further eroded the stability of
> >marriage
> > > > in this country, as well as encourages out of wedlock births.
> > >
> > > You can not blame out of marriage births on child support.
> >
> > Wanna bet?
> >
> > > How can it erode the stability of marriage?
> >
> > States that have instituted a default joint physical custody have
> >experienced a drop in the significant drop in the divorce rate. Combined
> >with the fact that 70-80% of divorces are the initiated by women. When
mom
> >doesn't get automatic custody and CS, the divorce rate drops.
> >
> > >Assuming one parent can leave and
> > > live off 33% of the other parents salary?
> > >
> > > It allows
> > > > women to escape financial responsibility for their sole and
unilateral
> > > > choices.
> > >
> > > Most single mothers work and I find that it appauling that you
> >generalize
> > > women and state that they are eluding responsibility.
> >
> > Women have the AAA unilateral choices. They can abort, adopt, or
abandon
> >without the approval or consent of the father. Yet they are NOT solely
> >financially responsible for those sole and unilateral choices they make.
> >There is no generalizations.....just a statement of FACT.
> >
> > >
> > > It irks me when people so blindly accept it as 'the way it should
> > > > be'
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > It irks me when people take what is best for the children and twist
it
> >to
> > > appear like the non custodial parent is going without to support some
> >gold
> > > diggin' biatch or bassard that he or she injected sperm or casted out
an
> >egg
> > > for.
> > > Come on. Do you really believe this is how it truly is?
> >
> > You just don't get it do you?
>
> Oh boo hoo. Life sucks. Then you pick yourself up, get over it, and
> move on. Staying stuck in the same old pit that has neither increased
> or decreased will get you nowhere.

The pit keeps increasing, just the majority of those not in IT turn a
blind eye until they fall in IT themsleves......which of course is too late.



The Anti-Father Police State

by Stephen Baskerville

Columnist Cathy Young is known for her even-handed attempts to cut
through the pretensions of both the left and right. She has also shown
considerable courage by delving into what for many journalists is a
no-go zone: divorce and fathers' rights.

So it is a little awkward to find myself cast as one of her combatants,
with my own views and others' whom I typify characterized as "extreme."
In the December issue of Reason magazine, Young sorts out, with her
customary balance, a debate between proponents of Clinton-Bush family
engineering schemes and those of us who take a more laissez-faire
attitude toward government intervention in family life.

Actually, it is not my positions that are extreme but my "rhetoric" -
specifically, the words I use to describe how government is
systematically destroying families and fathers. "Political speech and
writing are largely the defense of the indefensible," wrote George
Orwell. "Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism."
If my language seems direct, it may be because euphemism currently
obfuscates the most indefensible politics of our time.

That a writer as informed and astute as Young has difficulty grasping
the larger trend at work here validates Orwell's observation about the
power of language. Clichés about "divorce" and "custody" do not begin to
convey the civil liberties disaster taking place. We are facing
questions of who has primary authority over children, their parents or
the state, and whether the state's penal apparatus can seize control
over both the children and the private lives of citizens who have done
nothing wrong. Rephrased, the question is, Is there any private sphere
of life that remains off-limits to state intervention? Bryce Christensen
of Southern Utah University (and not a fathers' rights activist, extreme
or otherwise) has characterized fatherhood policies as creating a
"police state."

Developments in only the last few days amount to government admissions
of Christensen's charge. Under pressure from the American Civil
Liberties Union (ACLU), a Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, judge has
just freed some 100 prisoners who had been incarcerated without due
process for allegedly failing to pay child support. The fathers were
sentenced with no notice given of their hearings and no opportunity to
obtain legal representation. Fathers relate that hearings typically last
between 30 seconds and two minutes, during which they are sentenced to
months in prison. ACLU lawyer Malia Brink says courts across
Pennsylvania routinely jail such men for civil contempt without proper
notice or in time for them to get lawyers. Lawrence County was
apparently jailing fathers with no hearings at all. Nothing indicates
that Pennsylvania is unusual. After a decade of hysteria over "deadbeat
dads," one hundred such prisoners in each of the America's 3,500
counties is by no means unlikely.

Also last week, a federal appeals court finally ruled unconstitutional
the Elizabeth Morgan Act, a textbook bill of attainder whereby Congress
legislatively separated father and child and "branded" as "a criminal
child abuser" a father against whom no evidence was ever presented.
"Congress violated the constitutional prohibition against bills of
attainder by singling out plaintiff for legislative punishment," the
court said. The very fact that a bill of attainder was used at all
indicates something truly extreme is taking place. Bills of attainder
are rare, draconian measures used for one purpose: to convict
politically those who cannot be convicted with evidence.

So do these decisions demonstrate that justice eventually prevails?
Hardly. In both cases, the damage is done. Foretich's daughter has been
irreparably robbed of her childhood and estranged from her father.
Moreover, millions of fathers continue to be permanently separated from
their children and presumed guilty, even when no evidence exists against
them.

The Pennsylvania men will fare worse. For many, the incarceration has
already cost them their jobs and thus their ability to pay future child
support. As a result, they will be returned to the penal system, from
which they are unlikely ever to escape. Permanently insolvent, they are
farmed out to trash companies and similar concerns, where they work
14-16 hour days. Most of their earnings are confiscated for child
support, the costs of their incarceration, and mandatory drug testing.

This gulag recalls the description of the Soviet forced-labor system,
described by Carl Friedrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski in their classic
study of totalitarianism: "Not infrequently the secret police hired out
its prisoners to local agencies for the purpose of carrying out some
local project.. Elaborate contracts were drawn up.specifying all the
details and setting the rates at which the secret police is to be paid.
At the conclusion of their task, the prisoners, or more correctly the
slaves, were returned to the custody of the secret police."

New repressive measures against fathers are enacted almost daily. Last
week, Staten Island joined a nationwide trend when it opened a new
"integrated domestic violence court." The purpose of these courts, says
Chief Judge Judith Kaye, is not to dispense justice as such but to "make
batterers and abusers take responsibility for their actions." In other
words, to declare men guilty.

Anyone who doubts this need only look to Canada, where domestic violence
courts are already empowered to seize the property, including the homes,
of men accused of domestic violence, even though they are not
necessarily convicted or even formally charged. Moreover, they may do so
"ex parte," without the men being present to defend themselves. "This
bill is classic police-state legislation," writes Robert Martin, of the
University of Western Ontario. Walter Fox, a Toronto lawyer, describes
these courts as "pre-fascist," and editor Dave Brown writes in the
Ottawa Citizen, "Domestic violence courts.are designed to get around the
protections of the Criminal Code. The burden of proof is reduced or
removed, and there's no presumption of innocence."

Special courts to try special crimes that can only be committed by
certain people are a familiar device totalitarian regimes adopted to
replace established standards of justice with ideological justice. New
courts created during the French Revolution led to the Reign of Terror
and were consciously imitated in the Soviet Union. In Hitler's dreaded
Volksgerichte or "people's courts," write Friedrich and Brzezinski,
"only expediency in terms of National Socialist standards served as a
basis for judgment."

Even more astounding, legislation announced in Britain will require the
police to consider fathers guilty of domestic violence, even after they
have been acquitted in court. Fathers found "not guilty" are to be kept
away from their children and treated as if they are guilty. As Melanie
Phillips writes in the Daily Mail, "This measure will destroy the very
concept of innocence itself."

These are only the most recent developments. Young herself has written
eloquently on the practice of extracting coerced confessions from
fathers like Massachusetts minister Harry Stewart. In Warren County,
Pennsylvania, fathers like Robert Pessia are told they will be jailed
unless they sign confessions stating, "I have physically and emotionally
battered my partner." The father must then describe the violence, even
if he insists he committed none. The documents require him to state, "I
am responsible for the violence I used. My behavior was not provoked."
Again, the words of Friedrich and Brzezinski are apposite: "Confessions
are the key to this psychic coercion. The inmate is subjected to a
constant barrage of propaganda and ever-repeated demands that he
'confess his sins,' that he 'admit his shame.'"

G.K. Chesterton argued that the most enduring check on government
tyranny is the family. Ideological correctness notwithstanding, little
imagination is required to comprehend that the household member most
likely to defend the family against the state is the father. Yet as
Margaret Mead once pointed out, the father is also the family's weakest
link. The easiest and surest way to destroy the family, therefore, is to
remove the father. Is it extreme to wonder if government is quietly
engaged in a search-and-destroy operation against the principal obstacle
to the expansion of its power?



December 23, 2003



Stephen Baskerville, Ph.D., [send him mail], teaches political science
at Howard University.

Copyright © 2003 Stephen Baskerville

>
> 'Kate
>

[V]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
snip for brevity:

applied to
> the Family Therapy professional psych program. I want to know what it
> takes to build stronger families so that they won't become a statistic.
snip
>
> 'Kate
>

Kate: I did not know that! Well wishes and I hope you get in!
Keep us posted.
V

[P.Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:54:23 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> >
>
> >The pit keeps increasing, just the majority of those not in IT turn a
> >blind eye until they fall in IT themsleves......which of course is too
late.
>
> So you can keep reading the type of articles that inflame you or you can
> do something about it, something that is real. The reaction that you've
> received here is, by and large, an understanding of the issues.



>We know
> what is going on. The assumption of the number of people affected is a
> common bias.

?????????...............It goes much further than just NCP fathers BTW

The facts you are posting are confounded in that way and in
> many others.
>
> My bottom line is that you can post whatever you want but it's affect on
> you concerns me. I'd like to see you move past this and be happy,
> content, and feel like you've done something tangible about the state of
> families in the US.

Now who is making assumptions?

> That, BTW, is one of the reasons why I applied to
> the Family Therapy professional psych program. I want to know what it
> takes to build stronger families so that they won't become a statistic.
> Improve the lives of families, improve marital relationships, and
> divorce will not happen. That's the real issue.
>
> 'Kate
>

[P.Fritz]

"V" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
> (Paul Fritz)
> "Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
> ...
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Mon, Feb 16, 2004, 4:33pm From:
> (P.Fritz)
> Paul wrote:
>
> Nope, you just don't want to hear opiniions that you don't
> agree with.
>
> Well so what, do I have to agree with your opinion ? I don't agree
> .....Oh Well .
>
> Paul wrote:
> Did you read the enabling drivel before you posted it?
>
> Yep I did :)
>
> and you sit around and wonder why she is in the situation that she is?
>
> Nope I don't :)
>
> You are dooming her and your grandchild to repeat the same cycle.
>
> How ?
>
> You are how old and making 22k a year.
>
> Well I am a 42 year old woman no college education . I cook for 6o
> elderly folks in a small nursing home in Pennsylvania.
> 22k isn't too shabby for no education. But I am a damn good cook !
>
> You have a live in 'partner'
> Some role model
>
>
> Yes I have a live in partner..........
> should I be ashamed that we are not married? Well the guvment denies me
> that right Or is it that I am a lesbian Paul?
>
> V wrote:
> Well if you are, I am glad gays and lesbians are allowed to get married.
In
> the 50's it was interracial marriages or marriage with "foriegners" were
taboo
> and it is accepted now.

Apples and oranges.


> I am thinking it will lower insurance premiums for
> family coverage because there will be more in my pool.
> My aunt did not marry her live in partner, who is a male, because she
would
> lose some type of social security benefits. I think people personally
should
> not cohabitate, for reasons such as the low committment level, persons in
and
> out of the home, possibly hurting the child....monetary reasons, etc.
> but if it is a loving long term relationship, that is a bit different.
> Just my two cents.
>
>
> snip the rest for brevity
>
>
>

[P.Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:54:23 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> >
>
> >The pit keeps increasing, just the majority of those not in IT turn a
> >blind eye until they fall in IT themsleves......which of course is too
late.
>
> So you can keep reading the type of articles that inflame you or you can
> do something about it, something that is real. The reaction that you've
> received here is, by and large, an understanding of the issues. We know
> what is going on. The assumption of the number of people affected is a
> common bias. The facts you are posting are confounded in that way and in
> many others.

And the pit gets deeper

Child-support claim of daughter, now 21, reaches back to birth
February 17, 2004, 7:38 PM


GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) -- The Michigan Court of Appeals has upheld a
lower court's ruling that a local pharmacist owes a lump-sum child-support
payment to a 21-year-old daughter he never has met and, until a little more
than five years ago, did not know he had fathered.

A Grand Rapids lawyer representing the father, Kent Balliet, said her
client could end up owing the woman more than $100,000.

"This is going to turn paternity cases on their heads," attorney Amy
Rademaker said.

Balliet, 41, said his daughter, Heather Clough, resulted from a brief
college fling in spring 1982. He said he did not know she was his child
until her maternal grandparents, who also are her legal guardians, sued him
from Florida in August 1998.

"I can't even tell you the color of her eyes," Balliet told The Grand
Rapids Press for a story published Tuesday. He lives near Bailey, a hamlet
about 23 miles northwest of Grand Rapids.

After a blood test confirmed that he was her biological father,
Balliet made weekly child-support payments of $200 to $250 until Clough
graduated from Fort Myers (Fla.) North High School in 2001.

Then, Clough turned 18 and sued Balliet on her own, claiming that he
owed her support dating to the day of her birth in January 1983.

Last week, the state appeals court affirmed a decision by Kent County
Circuit Judge Paul Sullivan in favor of the daughter's claim. The issue of
how much money Balliet must pay Clough probably will be determined at a
hearing in Kent County Family Court.

"Now, a mom can say, "I'm not going to deal with dad, with parenting
time or any other of those troubling issues until my kid turns 18,' and she
can file a lawsuit for the total amount in bulk," Rademaker said. "It will
plunge unsuspecting men into debt. This is a crushing blow because of what
it means statewide. It's huge."

The law usually does not allow responsibility for child support to go
on forever, said Kristine Mullendore, an associate professor of legal
studies at Grand Valley State University and a former assistant Kent County
prosecutor.

Under paternity laws, the statute of limitations generally caps claims
at 6 years. But the window of opportunity for the daughter to make her claim
as a new adult was one year after turning 18, which Clough met, according to
the Court of Appeals.

The daughter said she is not interested in setting a legal precedent.

"I'd much rather have had a relationship with my father, but sometimes
it can't be that way," said Clough, who now lives in a Fort Myers duplex
near her grandparents' home. "I've never seen him, not even a picture of
him."

She was raised by grandparents Larry and Suzane Clough from age 5,
when her mother was declared mentally disabled. Becky Sue Clough was
diagnosed with schizophrenia and made a ward of her parents, her daughter
said.

Heather Clough said she discovered her father's address on the
Internet four years ago and briefly exchanged e-mail messages with him. She
said it appeared for a time he was interested in meeting her.

Then Balliet wrote her to say their conversations had been a mistake,
she said. That was when her grandparents filed for child support.

"I have a father who didn't want anything to do with me," Clough said.
"My mother had told me that's how it was, but I had my family who loved me.
I'm not a bitter person. Life is too short."




>
> My bottom line is that you can post whatever you want but it's affect on
> you concerns me. I'd like to see you move past this and be happy,
> content, and feel like you've done something tangible about the state of
> families in the US. That, BTW, is one of the reasons why I applied to
> the Family Therapy professional psych program. I want to know what it
> takes to build stronger families so that they won't become a statistic.
> Improve the lives of families, improve marital relationships, and
> divorce will not happen. That's the real issue.
>
> 'Kate
>

[lm]

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:33:33 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> wrote:

>
><'Kate> wrote in message ...
>> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:54:23 -0500, "P.Fritz"
>> >
>>
>> >The pit keeps increasing, just the majority of those not in IT turn a
>> >blind eye until they fall in IT themsleves......which of course is too
>late.
>>
>> So you can keep reading the type of articles that inflame you or you can
>> do something about it, something that is real. The reaction that you've
>> received here is, by and large, an understanding of the issues. We know
>> what is going on. The assumption of the number of people affected is a
>> common bias. The facts you are posting are confounded in that way and in
>> many others.
>
>And the pit gets deeper
>
> Child-support claim of daughter, now 21, reaches back to birth
> February 17, 2004, 7:38 PM
>
>
> GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) -- The Michigan Court of Appeals has upheld a
>lower court's ruling that a local pharmacist owes a lump-sum child-support
>payment to a 21-year-old daughter he never has met and, until a little more
>than five years ago, did not know he had fathered.
>
> A Grand Rapids lawyer representing the father, Kent Balliet, said her
>client could end up owing the woman more than $100,000.
>
> "This is going to turn paternity cases on their heads," attorney Amy
>Rademaker said.
>
> Balliet, 41, said his daughter, Heather Clough, resulted from a brief
>college fling in spring 1982. He said he did not know she was his child
>until her maternal grandparents, who also are her legal guardians, sued him
>from Florida in August 1998.
>
> "I can't even tell you the color of her eyes," Balliet told The Grand
>Rapids Press for a story published Tuesday. He lives near Bailey, a hamlet
>about 23 miles northwest of Grand Rapids.
>
> After a blood test confirmed that he was her biological father,
>Balliet made weekly child-support payments of $200 to $250 until Clough
>graduated from Fort Myers (Fla.) North High School in 2001.
>
> Then, Clough turned 18 and sued Balliet on her own, claiming that he
>owed her support dating to the day of her birth in January 1983.
>
> Last week, the state appeals court affirmed a decision by Kent County
>Circuit Judge Paul Sullivan in favor of the daughter's claim. The issue of
>how much money Balliet must pay Clough probably will be determined at a
>hearing in Kent County Family Court.
>
> "Now, a mom can say, "I'm not going to deal with dad, with parenting
>time or any other of those troubling issues until my kid turns 18,' and she
>can file a lawsuit for the total amount in bulk," Rademaker said. "It will
>plunge unsuspecting men into debt. This is a crushing blow because of what
>it means statewide. It's huge."
>
> The law usually does not allow responsibility for child support to go
>on forever, said Kristine Mullendore, an associate professor of legal
>studies at Grand Valley State University and a former assistant Kent County
>prosecutor.
>
> Under paternity laws, the statute of limitations generally caps claims
>at 6 years. But the window of opportunity for the daughter to make her claim
>as a new adult was one year after turning 18, which Clough met, according to
>the Court of Appeals.
>
> The daughter said she is not interested in setting a legal precedent.
>
> "I'd much rather have had a relationship with my father, but sometimes
>it can't be that way," said Clough, who now lives in a Fort Myers duplex
>near her grandparents' home. "I've never seen him, not even a picture of
>him."
>
> She was raised by grandparents Larry and Suzane Clough from age 5,
>when her mother was declared mentally disabled. Becky Sue Clough was
>diagnosed with schizophrenia and made a ward of her parents, her daughter
>said.
>
> Heather Clough said she discovered her father's address on the
>Internet four years ago and briefly exchanged e-mail messages with him. She
>said it appeared for a time he was interested in meeting her.
>
> Then Balliet wrote her to say their conversations had been a mistake,
>she said. That was when her grandparents filed for child support.
>
> "I have a father who didn't want anything to do with me," Clough said.
>"My mother had told me that's how it was, but I had my family who loved me.
>I'm not a bitter person. Life is too short."
>
Yowza! If she's going to sue anyone, it ought to be grammy and gramps,
for not letting her know about her father. Good Gracious!

lm

[lm]

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 21:55:09 GMT, lm >
wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:33:33 -0500, "P.Fritz"
> wrote:
>
>>
>><'Kate> wrote in message ...
>>> On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:54:23 -0500, "P.Fritz"
>>> >
>>>
>>> >The pit keeps increasing, just the majority of those not in IT turn a
>>> >blind eye until they fall in IT themsleves......which of course is too
>>late.
>>>
>>> So you can keep reading the type of articles that inflame you or you can
>>> do something about it, something that is real. The reaction that you've
>>> received here is, by and large, an understanding of the issues. We know
>>> what is going on. The assumption of the number of people affected is a
>>> common bias. The facts you are posting are confounded in that way and in
>>> many others.
>>
>>And the pit gets deeper
>>
>> Child-support claim of daughter, now 21, reaches back to birth
>> February 17, 2004, 7:38 PM
>>
>>
>> GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (AP) -- The Michigan Court of Appeals has upheld a
>>lower court's ruling that a local pharmacist owes a lump-sum child-support
>>payment to a 21-year-old daughter he never has met and, until a little more
>>than five years ago, did not know he had fathered.
>>
>> A Grand Rapids lawyer representing the father, Kent Balliet, said her
>>client could end up owing the woman more than $100,000.
>>
>> "This is going to turn paternity cases on their heads," attorney Amy
>>Rademaker said.
>>
>> Balliet, 41, said his daughter, Heather Clough, resulted from a brief
>>college fling in spring 1982. He said he did not know she was his child
>>until her maternal grandparents, who also are her legal guardians, sued him
>>from Florida in August 1998.
>>
>> "I can't even tell you the color of her eyes," Balliet told The Grand
>>Rapids Press for a story published Tuesday. He lives near Bailey, a hamlet
>>about 23 miles northwest of Grand Rapids.
>>
>> After a blood test confirmed that he was her biological father,
>>Balliet made weekly child-support payments of $200 to $250 until Clough
>>graduated from Fort Myers (Fla.) North High School in 2001.
>>
>> Then, Clough turned 18 and sued Balliet on her own, claiming that he
>>owed her support dating to the day of her birth in January 1983.
>>
>> Last week, the state appeals court affirmed a decision by Kent County
>>Circuit Judge Paul Sullivan in favor of the daughter's claim. The issue of
>>how much money Balliet must pay Clough probably will be determined at a
>>hearing in Kent County Family Court.
>>
>> "Now, a mom can say, "I'm not going to deal with dad, with parenting
>>time or any other of those troubling issues until my kid turns 18,' and she
>>can file a lawsuit for the total amount in bulk," Rademaker said. "It will
>>plunge unsuspecting men into debt. This is a crushing blow because of what
>>it means statewide. It's huge."
>>
>> The law usually does not allow responsibility for child support to go
>>on forever, said Kristine Mullendore, an associate professor of legal
>>studies at Grand Valley State University and a former assistant Kent County
>>prosecutor.
>>
>> Under paternity laws, the statute of limitations generally caps claims
>>at 6 years. But the window of opportunity for the daughter to make her claim
>>as a new adult was one year after turning 18, which Clough met, according to
>>the Court of Appeals.
>>
>> The daughter said she is not interested in setting a legal precedent.
>>
>> "I'd much rather have had a relationship with my father, but sometimes
>>it can't be that way," said Clough, who now lives in a Fort Myers duplex
>>near her grandparents' home. "I've never seen him, not even a picture of
>>him."
>>
>> She was raised by grandparents Larry and Suzane Clough from age 5,
>>when her mother was declared mentally disabled. Becky Sue Clough was
>>diagnosed with schizophrenia and made a ward of her parents, her daughter
>>said.
>>
>> Heather Clough said she discovered her father's address on the
>>Internet four years ago and briefly exchanged e-mail messages with him. She
>>said it appeared for a time he was interested in meeting her.
>>
>> Then Balliet wrote her to say their conversations had been a mistake,
>>she said. That was when her grandparents filed for child support.
>>
>> "I have a father who didn't want anything to do with me," Clough said.
>>"My mother had told me that's how it was, but I had my family who loved me.
>>I'm not a bitter person. Life is too short."
>>
>Yowza! If she's going to sue anyone, it ought to be grammy and gramps,
>for not letting her know about her father. Good Gracious!
>
>lm

On second thought, maybe he ought to counter-sue for not being told
about his daughter. Who sounds like a peach.

lm

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2004, 10:35am
(EST+5) From: (Joelle)



Kind of a selfish way to look at it, though, don't you think? Maybe if
you saw from the interests of the child, it would look a
little different.


Adoption is for people that know they can not take proper care of the
child. We know this baby has all she needs coming to her.
She is in a loving home surrounded by family................as seen from
the interests of the child, heh , yep ,I asked her :) she is smiling and
cooing ,What a prescious granddaughter I have !

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Tue, Feb 17, 2004, 7:19am From:
(Paul

Some role model =A0 Just more evidence that it is all about YOU and not
the
kids.

Paul, I could say the same for you .

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebe lestrnge" > wrote in message
...
>
> Re: Hello, way long sorry.....
>
> Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Wed, Feb 18, 2004, 10:35am
> (EST+5) From: (Joelle)
>
>
>
> Kind of a selfish way to look at it, though, don't you think? Maybe if
> you saw from the interests of the child, it would look a
> little different.
>
>
> Adoption is for people that know they can not take proper care of the
> child.

Self serving bulll****.

>We know this baby has all she needs coming to her.
> She is in a loving home surrounded by family................as seen from
> the interests of the child, heh , yep ,I asked her :) she is smiling and
> cooing ,What a prescious granddaughter I have !

More self serving bullshiit

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: Hello, way long sorry.....

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Thu, Feb 19, 2004, 11:55pm From:
(Paul=A0Fritz)

=A0=A0=A0=A0Self serving bulll****.

=A0=A0=A0=A0More self serving bullshiit

Maybe if you "self served" yourself Mr. Pig
or used a condom ,You wouldn't be whining so much about having to
support your children, and you could stop losing sleep over all this.
What a miserable person, I no longer "wonder" about you .

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: percentage of child support

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:51:35 GMT, "V" >

<'Kate> wrote in message
...

snip for brevity:
applied to
the Family Therapy professional psych program. I want to know what it
takes to build stronger families so that they won't become a statistic.
snip
'Kate



Kate: I did not know that! Well wishes and I hope you get in!
Keep us posted.
V


Kate wrote:
I'll find out on April 1st... yeah, a bit of psych humor notifying
candidates on that particular day. It's a long way off and there's a lot
of competition for the program. I think I have a shot at it and if not
this school, I'll spin the big wheel and apply to others next December.
'Kate

Bev wrote:
Sorry I missed this for a bit...... the thread had my head spinning LOL!
I want to wish you good luck too 'Kate !
You have better than a shot at it ! You have worked hard, and you've
got what it takes ! Bev

[Bebe lestrnge]

Re: percentage of child support

Group: alt.support.single-parents Date: Sat, Feb 21, 2004, 9:58am
(EST-1) From: ('Kate)
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:53:42 -0500 (EST), (Bebe
lestrnge)


Bev wrote:
Sorry I missed this for a bit...... the thread had my head spinning LOL!
I want to wish you good luck too 'Kate !
You have better than a shot at it ! You have worked hard, and you've
got what it takes ! Bev

'Kate wrote:
Thank you. It's just so darn competitive (only 20 admitted per year),
that a lot of good potential therapists will be left hanging for one
reason or another.
'Kate

Bev wrote:
YW. Here's hoping you are in the top 20 then ! Left hanging sucks
.......Bev