Re: discipline

[Naomi Pardue]

>Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ??? Or
>is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want the
>kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great.

>What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
>night.

I snipped a lot of this for space, but I think the main problem here is that
the kids have learned that you are never going to follow through, so they know
that you don't mean what you say. IOW, you might SAY that their bedtime is
8:30 ... but it's really always 10 or 10:30, because all they have to do is
ask, and you are happy to sit with them, check the closet for monsters,
whatever, and before you know it, a couple of hours have gone by every night.

Your kids are certainly old enough for reason and logic. They are starting
school in a month. They have to start getting up early, which means they have
to go to bed early enough to get a decent night's sleep. So start enforcing
their bedtimes NOW. Bedtime is 8:30. She may read until 9, or you can sit
with her/read her a story, then light's out. (Does she have a night light if
she's afraid of the dark?) Wake her up at whatever time she will start needing
to get up for school in September. (So you can start getting a better sense of
exactly how much sleep she is going to need, and fine tune her bedtime. [Unless
her school starts unusually late, or she can get by on less sleep than most
6's, you may find that a 9 o:clock bedtime is going to be to late.

Same thing for your son. You are happy to cuddle briefly at bedtime. (HIS
bedtime, NOT 10 p.m....) But in HIS bed, and then, when the clock says it's
sleeptime, the light goes out, and he goes to sleep. (Does he have a teddy or
something to cuddle with in bed?)

You are the parents here. Your job isn't to be monsters or ogres, but your job
IS to make, and enforce, the reasonable rules that your children need to allow
them to function in a world that has a certain number of rules and
expectations. It may not be the fun part of parenting, but it's certainly one
of the most important parts.


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

[toto]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:39:38 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> wrote:

> Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ??? Or
>is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want the
>kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great. I find myself
>doing bathtime, and then snack and then trying to get them into bed and
>having my 6 year old tell me she is not tired...I tell her that she doesn't
>have to sleep just go to bed and read a book if she wants to.

Of course you are not alone.

I still find that positive discipline works best though and rule
setting is best done *with* children rather than by parent fiat.

So, for the bedtime problems, create a routine together. You can't
*make* a child sleep, but you can insist that she plays quietly in her
own room and falls asleep there when she is tired.

You already do bath time. I am not sure that I would do an evening
snack time right before bed. I think that often makes kids more
wakeful. I would read her a favorite story in bed and cuddle there.
If she is afraid of monsters, you might get a small flashlight she can
use and create a routine that makes them *go away* for her
or get a dream catcher and read the story of how it catches bad
dreams and only lets good dreams through. If she is really not tired,
suggest that she can listen to quiet music perhaps if she likes that.
Sometimes a particular song can be associated with sleepy time.
I used to sing to my kids all the time.

Keep the routine the same and if she does come out of the room,
put her back to bed without much comment.

Also as someone else suggested begin now to wake her at the
time she will need to wake for school. Create a morning routine
and include some fun activities so she will enjoy getting up and out
early enough. Perhaps you can get out of the house early and walk
to the school grounds to play if it is close enough.

Make morning time active and fun. Also make sure that she is getting
exercise that helps tire her out during the day. Go out to the
playground or swimming pool when you can. I found my kids always
slept well after an active day provided that they also had winding
down activities after dinner.

She should be amenable to logic at six and also like to make the
rules, so sit down with her and compromise on the bedtime. If you
want 8 PM and she wants 10 PM, perhaps 9 PM would be a good
compromise. Is there a TV show or video that could be started at
8 or 8:30 to demarcate the bedtime hour as 9? If so, she may be
happy to have that played each night and go to bed when it is over.
Time for kids of this age is pretty hard to delineate and they are not
really clock bound as adults are so having a specific activity that
demarcates the bedtime is better than using the clock.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[GI Trekker]

<<What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
night.>>

Take her upstairs, put her in bed at a proper time, and tell her in no
uncertain terms to STAY PUT! Then turn out the light. If she comes out of her
room for any other reason than to go to the bathroom, there will be punishment.

THAT'S discipline. You don't "get" a child to do something, you "make" them do
something. Anything else is letting your children rule the home, and that's
wrong.

[Kereru]

"James and Karen Stewart" > wrote in message
...
> Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ??? Or
> is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want the
> kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great. I find
myself
> doing bathtime, and then snack and then trying to get them into bed and
> having my 6 year old tell me she is not tired...I tell her that she
doesn't
> have to sleep just go to bed and read a book if she wants to.
>
> She doesn't want to go to bed alone..she wants my husband or me to
stay
> with her. Mainly the reason for this is she says she is scared in her
room
> alone..... We have a two storey house and I am wondering what I can doto
> make her less afraid up their alone. She doesn't read scary books or
watch
> a scary show before bed, and I have gone in her closet in the dark to
prove
> to her that there is nothing in there.
>
> What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
> night.
>
> She will be going to school everyday come Sept. so I need to get this
> problem fixed.
>
> Hubby and I haven't had even an hour or down/alone time at night for the
> last 2 weeks. We are going insane...sometimes you need just a few hours
> alone a week, but there is just no time for us to be alone together
lately.
> Please don't suggest that we go out for supper and get a sitter...because
we
> do get time alone....just not often. The kids will be going to their
> grandparents for a few night and we are going away overnight in Aug. but
> it's just the last two weeks have been a pain and a really trying time for
> us with the kids.
>
> Also my son wants to cuddle on the couch everynight with me and fall
> asleep with me. Come Sept he will be starting Junior kindergardten and
will
> need to fall asleep earlier in his own bed. I have tried to suggest
> cuddling in his bed but he wants to cuddle on the couch.
>
>
> Any ideas
> Thanks
> Karen
>
>

Sounds to me that you are just going to have to be a bit stricter. I don't
think that children will always sleep when they need it. They can get very
over tired and have trouble falling asleep when they MOST need it. You have
to tell them when bedtime is and be firm about it. Once they are in bed
don't get them up, if they need comfort do it in their beds.

When the kids do go to bed at the earlier time, make a big fuss off them and
tell them how good they are. You might want to repalce the snack with a warm
milk, it could relax them and stick to a routine. Humans have sleep cues and
if you do the same things enough times before sleep they will become cues
for sleep.

If monsters are a problem someone on here a while a go suggested a bottle of
monster repellent. You can buy a spary bottle for a few dollars, fill it up
with water (unobserved of course) and spray around the room with the child
before bed. Tell your little girl that it makes the monsters run away and go
home. It may work! However the "scared" may well be another form of
procrastination and be replaced with "thirsty" or "not tired"!

Okay I'm no expert and I am goign by what my parents did rather than what I
do (my little boy is younger than yours) so take it with a pinch of salt!
But hopefully I've said someything useful.

Good Luck

Judy

[James and Karen Stewart]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:39:38 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> > wrote:

> I still find that positive discipline works best though and rule
> setting is best done *with* children rather than by parent fiat.

Positive discipline has been tried but I just haven't got the patience for
ti in some cases, but sometimes it seems to work, it is hard to use it when
I am used of being disciplined the way I do it...positive discipline is new
to many of us and although I have read the books on it and agree I have had
a hard time figuring out ways to do it effectively. ( I am also a fairly
young parent and sometimes feel like this makes it harder to deal with
them....I am 28)

> You already do bath time. I am not sure that I would do an evening
> snack time right before bed.
We have always had a snack before bed, due mostly to the fact that neither
of my children are big eaters and used to wake up hungry when there was no
snack at bed time.

> Also as someone else suggested begin now to wake her at the
> time she will need to wake for school. Create a morning routine
> and include some fun activities so she will enjoy getting up and out
> early enough. Perhaps you can get out of the house early and walk
> to the school grounds to play if it is close enough.

We will need to get up at 7 Am to get ready for school but she will take
the bus.

> Make morning time active and fun. Also make sure that she is getting
> exercise that helps tire her out during the day. Go out to the
> playground or swimming pool when you can.

The cartoons/kids shows are on in the morning and with the two kids that
seems to be the only time I get any time to work on house work and
cleaning.This summer has been really hot on a few days and really crappy for
swimming on most days. We have only gone swimming about 4 times this
summer, hope Aug. is better for that. My daughter is on medication for her
blood pressure and it makes her sensitive to the sun so on really hot days
we can only be out for a while, ( definatly not between 2-4 in the
afternoon)

> want 8 PM and she wants 10 PM, perhaps 9 PM would be a good
> compromise.

It's not so much that she wants 10 pm it's more that it takes asking her
from 8:30 until 10 to make it happen.... she goes upstairs comes down, I'm
hungry, I'm not tired, I' m scared. I'm thirsty. Every excues she can think
of.
>

Thanks for your suggestions
karen

[James and Karen Stewart]

I wish he still napped !!!!! That would be great.... I would have 5
minutes to myslef in the afternoon. My kids never napped from the time they
were both around 2 1/2 -3, I would like it to be in his room because I
have a two storey house and it is really hard to carry him up the stairs
when he is dead weight. He doesn't want to cuddle in his room. He wants to
be with both my hubby and myself. I think that is why it is the living room.
Karen

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:39:38 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> > wrote:
>
> > Also my son wants to cuddle on the couch everynight with me and fall
> >asleep with me. Come Sept he will be starting Junior kindergardten and
will
> >need to fall asleep earlier in his own bed. I have tried to suggest
> >cuddling in his bed but he wants to cuddle on the couch.
>
> Earlier, perhaps, but why in his own bed?
>
> Still, if you want to promote his room, perhaps you can move a comfy
> chair in there to cuddle on?
>
> Start waking him up at the normal time for his school now rather than
> waiting until it is necessary. See if this makes his bedtime
> earlier.
>
> Also if he still naps, you can try cutting the naptime to a shorter
> time or making it earlier in the day.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> Outer Limits

[James and Karen Stewart]

What do I do to enforce an earlier bedtime but using positive discipline.,
That is what do I say to hear whenshe comes out of her room, that would be
in the positive discipline form.
"It's time for bed" "let's go back to your room" " it's quiet time, shut
your eyes and relax "..... all the while she is crying because I am leaving
and she doesn't want me to leave her room because she is scared of the
monsters. " There are no monsters, nothing in this room will harm you,
goodnight"

???????

Help with this positive discipline thing ??? Please
Karen


"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On 27 Jul 2003 18:55:49 GMT, (GI Trekker) wrote:
>
> ><<What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30
at
> >night.>>
> >
> >Take her upstairs, put her in bed at a proper time, and tell her in no
> >uncertain terms to STAY PUT! Then turn out the light. If she comes out of
her
> >room for any other reason than to go to the bathroom, there will be
punishment.
> >
> >THAT'S discipline. You don't "get" a child to do something, you "make"
them do
> >something. Anything else is letting your children rule the home, and
that's
> >wrong.
>
> No, that's not discipline. Punishment and discipline are not
> synonyms.
>
> Punishment and reward are ways of controlling behavior, but they have
> unintended consequences in humans that don't actually lend themselves
> to teaching self-discipline which is what most parents are aiming for.
>
> Both punishment and reward focus on after the fact - that is after the
> behavior you are trying to control has already happenned at least
> once. You then attempt to modify the behavior for the next time, but
> you are not addressing the reasons for the behavior and hence you
> keep the locus of control external so that the child is prepared to
> follow orders, but doesn't know *why* he should or what is wrong about
> the behavior.
>
> When a child makes a mistake, you correct it, but you need to teach
> him why what he did is wrong. Sometimes, it is only because it
> irritates you and the behavior itself is not really wrong.. In the
> case of when a child should go to bed, this is certainly true.
> Children as all humans *will* sleep when they are tired and the
> fact that their sleep times are inconvenient for the adults is not
> *wrong* and should certainly not be punished. You can encourage
> them to have their sleep schedule in line with your needs, but it
> doesn't help to ignore their physical needs by trying to make them
> sleep on *your* schedule because *you* need time to yourself or
> because *you* don't want to deal with them after a certain hour of the
> day or night.
>
> Positive discipline takes a proactive approach. You can encourage
> your child to go to bed at a regular time by creating a routine that
> *says* bedtime. You can also insure that he stays in his room and
> plays quietly though you cannot make him sleep. The less reaction
> s/he gets when s/he does come out of the room, the better, btw, unless
> you intend to reinforce attention-getting behavior.
>
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> Outer Limits

[James and Karen Stewart]

Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.
When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to your bed NOW
!!!" We take her back up, cover her again and shut her door, she is
crying and screaming back " I'm scared, I'm really really scared"
Then I go back in tell her " If you don't go to bed whatever you are scared
of in here is nothing to what you should be scared of ...ME!!!"
"GO TO SLEEP !!!!!!!!" the screaming continues...so how to I be more
strict without holding her down or gluing her to the bed. ??? Or geting a
strait jacket for her so she can't open the door !!....HEHE

Thanks for all suggestions

KAren



"James and Karen Stewart" > wrote in message
...
> Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ??? Or
> is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want the
> kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great. I find
myself
> doing bathtime, and then snack and then trying to get them into bed and
> having my 6 year old tell me she is not tired...I tell her that she
doesn't
> have to sleep just go to bed and read a book if she wants to.
>
> She doesn't want to go to bed alone..she wants my husband or me to
stay
> with her. Mainly the reason for this is she says she is scared in her
room
> alone..... We have a two storey house and I am wondering what I can doto
> make her less afraid up their alone. She doesn't read scary books or
watch
> a scary show before bed, and I have gone in her closet in the dark to
prove
> to her that there is nothing in there.
>
> What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
> night.
>
> She will be going to school everyday come Sept. so I need to get this
> problem fixed.
>
> Hubby and I haven't had even an hour or down/alone time at night for the
> last 2 weeks. We are going insane...sometimes you need just a few hours
> alone a week, but there is just no time for us to be alone together
lately.
> Please don't suggest that we go out for supper and get a sitter...because
we
> do get time alone....just not often. The kids will be going to their
> grandparents for a few night and we are going away overnight in Aug. but
> it's just the last two weeks have been a pain and a really trying time for
> us with the kids.
>
> Also my son wants to cuddle on the couch everynight with me and fall
> asleep with me. Come Sept he will be starting Junior kindergardten and
will
> need to fall asleep earlier in his own bed. I have tried to suggest
> cuddling in his bed but he wants to cuddle on the couch.
>
>
> Any ideas
> Thanks
> Karen
>
>

[blacksalt]

I was number 6, and it was always my father's job to get us to bed. We
had a ritual, as I recall bathing, brushing and a read story. If I
didn't seem ready to go to sleep promptly, he lay in bed with me, in the
dark, with my head on his arm, and we **very quietly** talked. Sometimes
he sang Swanee River, very quietly, sometimes we talked about a spider
on the ceiling (who was wandering around because he dropped his lolly
pop), or he told stories. Sometimes we did slow, even breathing
together, and relaxed one limb at a time. When I was definitely sleepy,
he'd put on the nightlight (I was terribly afraid of monsters), and tip
toe out. I think it was like a kind of child hypnosis...and took a good
part of his time, given all the years he did it for all of us.
The summer I had my niece and nephew, it was the same thing, only I
never had to lay in bed with them and talk. They did take a hour of my
nights with the ritual, however. When they seemed alittle restless, I'd
have them sleep on the porch (the 'thrill of camping') in their bags and
I'd lay on the floor this side of the door and tell them a last story
while they looked at the stars.
Personally, I'd start a ritual, staying with her until she fell asleep
if necessary, and then start paring back. But be prepared to give up an
hour of your evening. I felt just *cherished* by my father, and that was
probably the secret.
blacksalt

[toto]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:17:53 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> wrote:

> There are no monsters, nothing in this room will harm you,
>goodnight"
>
>???????

No, that belittles her fears.

For monsters you can do several things. Let her do a monster
search and use a spray bottle to get rid of them... (It's just
pretend, but so what, she is only 5 or 6). Get a spray bottle
and put some colored water in it and possibly some glitter and
let it be the monster spray that makes the monsters go away.

Or get a dream catcher and tell her the story of how it catches
bad dreams and alter it a bit so that it catches monsters too.

By her her very own monster stuffed doll that can scare any
other monsters away and let her take him to bed with her.
Make up an imaginary friend who will scare the monsters
away (have her name the friend and give it whatever characteristics
will make it scary to the monsters, but lovable to her).

Or read some books where children overcome monsters.
Where the Wild Things Are by Maurice Sendak is good
There's a Monster in My Closet by Mercer Mayer is another
good book.

Make the monsters into friendly characters who she can
say goodnight to.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[toto]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:22:46 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> wrote:

>Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
>all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
>useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.

Yelling is counterproductive.

Whisper instead. Or don't talk at all. Just take her back.

Do sit with her for a bit in the bedroom. If she is having
nightmares, stay calm and deal with cuddling her in the
bedroom.

Perhaps you can stay and rub her back a bit early in the
routine instead of waiting until she comes out to deal with
the fears.

Also make sure that she is not doing something very active
right before bed and that she isn't watching scary tv shows
or movies during the day.

Ask her more about what she is afraid of so that she can
define her fears. Then deal with them on a realistic basis
or a fantasy tale if that suits her better.


>When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to
>your bed NOW !!!" We take her back up, cover her again and shut her door, she is
>crying and screaming back " I'm scared, I'm really really scared"
>Then I go back in tell her " If you don't go to bed whatever you are scared
>of in here is nothing to what you should be scared of ...ME!!!"

This belittles her feelings and she knows you don't understand.

Can you remember how you felt when you were little and scared?
How did your parents help you deal with those fears? If they didn't
help and you are now doing what they did, think about changing
what you are doing.

>"GO TO SLEEP !!!!!!!!" the screaming continues...so how to I be more
>strict without holding her down or gluing her to the bed. ??? Or geting a
>strait jacket for her so she can't open the door !!....HEHE
>
>Thanks for all suggestions
>
>KAren

I realize that it is difficult for anyone to change their own
behaviors in parenting because we all learned what we lived,
but you can change. It doesn't mean you won't slip, but that
you have to keep working on it.

As for holding her down, locking her door or strait jacketing her,
I realize you are kidding, but *think* about what you are saying
here about how frustrated you feel. Then try to remember that
she is only a little girl and her fears are strong too.

Validate her feelings, but not her behavior. Try to find ways
that you and she can cope with your feelings that work for
both of you. Enlist your husband in this too. Daddy's are
great for scaring away monsters.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[P. Tierney]

"James and Karen Stewart" > wrote in message
...
>
> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 10:39:38 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> > > wrote:
>
> > I still find that positive discipline works best though and rule
> > setting is best done *with* children rather than by parent fiat.
>
> Positive discipline has been tried but I just haven't got the patience for
> ti in some cases, but sometimes it seems to work, it is hard to use it
when
> I am used of being disciplined the way I do it...positive discipline is
new
> to many of us and although I have read the books on it and agree I have
had
> a hard time figuring out ways to do it effectively.

It is hard, but if the easy way is ineffective, then not much is
gained by going that route, except for perhaps freeing up time
for the parent. But your sentence above, on what we are "used to",
is an important one. We all fall into that trap -- teachers often
teach as they were once taught, parents parent as they were
parented, even if it means physical abuse. It happened to them,
and they turned out okay (or so they think), so it must be right
to continue it. Getting over that hump, in lots of areas of life,
is very difficult.


P. Tierney

[R. Steve Walz]

Dave {Reply Address in.sig} wrote:
>
> In message >, Naomi Pardue
> wrote:
>
> > You are the parents here. Your job isn't to be monsters or ogres, but
> > your job IS to make, and enforce, the reasonable rules that your children
> > need to allow them to function in a world that has a certain number of
> > rules and
> > expectations. It may not be the fun part of parenting, but it's certainly
> > one of the most important parts.
> >
> I think the important point is that if you don't enforce rules when they are
> young then you (and possibly society) will pay for it later when your kids
> turn out to be uncontrollable as teenagers.
-------------
You're nothing but an abusive asshole. That's NOT where criminality
comes from in people, actually it comes from being treated as YOU
recommend here!


> Never issue a command unless
> you are fully prepared to enforce it or provide suitable punishment (which
> can be simple as turning off the TV or a short timeout period or removal of
> a treat). The child is free to choose his own path but must learn that some
> choices have unpleasant consequences.
>
> Christopher gets a polite request to do something (or to stop doing it)
> followed by a stern one followed by direct parental action if he still
> persists. If he throws a tantrum on the floor as a result then he is
> ignored until he calms down. He's generally well-behaved now and tantrums
> rarely last long because he knows they aren't effective in getting his own
> way.
---------------
Your variety of ****ty disonoring abuse is what causes kids to hate
your guts, and to hate society, assuming it is just like YOU are, and
become the criminals you're so afraid of. Actually you're just an
immature adult who can't handle being denied your every whim, and you
seek to hurt people to get your way, you will probably slap your wife
around too, because your sort of personality is the PRIME source of
that kind of crap!

YOU got that way by being abused in same sick manner that you're now
recommending. This is called the generational cycle of abuse.


> Bed time is handled by putting him in his cot, turning out the light and
> pulling the door mostly closed. Most times he'll be asleep pretty quickly
> but occasionally he'll have a bad night. The rule is that someone might go
> in and pick him up for a cuddle and put him back down but he doesn't leave
> the room until morning.
>
> (apart from the one night where I peeked in to see why he was crying and saw
> that both he and the cot were covered in vomit, he did get to come out that
> night.)
>
> Dave
----------------
Gee, he has to throw up from being hysterical to be comforted?
How ****ing stupid and sick of you!
Steve

[R. Steve Walz]

James and Karen Stewart wrote:
>
> Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ??? Or
> is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want the
> kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great. I find myself
> doing bathtime, and then snack and then trying to get them into bed and
> having my 6 year old tell me she is not tired...I tell her that she doesn't
> have to sleep just go to bed and read a book if she wants to.
>
> She doesn't want to go to bed alone..she wants my husband or me to stay
> with her. Mainly the reason for this is she says she is scared in her room
> alone..... We have a two storey house and I am wondering what I can doto
> make her less afraid up their alone. She doesn't read scary books or watch
> a scary show before bed, and I have gone in her closet in the dark to prove
> to her that there is nothing in there.
>
> What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
> night.
>
> She will be going to school everyday come Sept. so I need to get this
> problem fixed.
>
> Hubby and I haven't had even an hour or down/alone time at night for the
> last 2 weeks. We are going insane...sometimes you need just a few hours
> alone a week, but there is just no time for us to be alone together lately.
> Please don't suggest that we go out for supper and get a sitter...because we
> do get time alone....just not often. The kids will be going to their
> grandparents for a few night and we are going away overnight in Aug. but
> it's just the last two weeks have been a pain and a really trying time for
> us with the kids.
>
> Also my son wants to cuddle on the couch everynight with me and fall
> asleep with me. Come Sept he will be starting Junior kindergardten and will
> need to fall asleep earlier in his own bed. I have tried to suggest
> cuddling in his bed but he wants to cuddle on the couch.
>
> Any ideas
> Thanks
> Karen
-------------------
You want time for sex, but you're couching it in terms inspired
by your shame, which stimulates you to anger and resentment, thus angry
efforts at "discipline".

Instead, interest your children in leaving you alone and watching
a tape in the next room while you have sex in the bedroom. If
you're not sane enough to leave the door open, and make sex appear
normal to your children, then at least tell them that you have to
take a half hour or so doing what mommies and daddies have to do
together to stay married. Then come out and cuddle with them
afterwards and they will feel the relaxed difference in your
demeanor and know that you did something very nice together.

You see, this whole thing REALLY isn't about "discipline" at all,
it's about getting everyone's needs met, and you can ask that of
your kids if you're nice to them, and they will help you. But honor
their feelings and needs, and they will honor yours gladly!

But putting kids to bed early is merely abuse, they simply aren't
tired yet anymore than you are. You're simply taking unfair advantage
of your size, and that will cost you a LOT later when they're older!!
Steve

[R. Steve Walz]

GI Trekker wrote:
>
> <<What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
> night.>>
>
> Take her upstairs, put her in bed at a proper time, and tell her in no
> uncertain terms to STAY PUT! Then turn out the light. If she comes out of her
> room for any other reason than to go to the bathroom, there will be punishment.
---------------
You're nothing but a human ****, aren'tcha, little asshole.
What a stupid immature macho screen name too.
Steve

[R. Steve Walz]

James and Karen Stewart wrote:
>
> Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
> all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
> useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.
--------------
Then don't do such things if you ARE bright enough to realize that
they are stupid and ignorant. Make sure that everyone gets their
needs met and that you all talk about what you want and how to get
ALL of it. Simply sit down and agree!


> When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to your bed NOW
> !!!" We take her back up, cover her again and shut her door, she is
> crying and screaming back " I'm scared, I'm really really scared"
> Then I go back in tell her " If you don't go to bed whatever you are scared
> of in here is nothing to what you should be scared of ...ME!!!"
> "GO TO SLEEP !!!!!!!!" the screaming continues...so how to I be more
> strict without holding her down or gluing her to the bed. ??? Or geting a
> strait jacket for her so she can't open the door !!....HEHE
> Thanks for all suggestions
> KAren
-----------------------
That's abusive and causes a fracture of the relationship as soon as
she is old enough to question you.
Steve

[Bippy]

----- Original Message -----
From: "toto" >
Newsgroups: misc.kids
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: discipline


| No, that's not discipline. Punishment and discipline are not
| synonyms.


Actually, they *are* synonyms. ;-) www.m-w.com

Seriously, when bribes and reward charts don't work, reasoning and
pleading have failed, sometimes you just have to find their "sweet
spot" and threaten it. For a social child, you might tell them if they
come out of their room they'll be grounded. For children who love
their TV, they would lose that priviledge. Or it might mean losing
sweets or soda for a while, or missing a special event coming up, or a
playdate. Consider what they love the most at that particular moment
and threaten to yank it if they disobey. Nothing wrong with that.

| Punishment and reward are ways of controlling behavior, but they
have
| unintended consequences in humans that don't actually lend
themselves
| to teaching self-discipline which is what most parents are aiming
for.

I disagree. Until the lessons in self-discipline have caught on,
punishments (and in some cases, rewards) are in order. I don't believe
in rewarding a child for doing what they are expected to do. I do
reward when my DD goes above and beyond, but never for behaving as God
(and society) would expect her to behave. DH and I are also pointing
out to her the natural consequences of bad behavior, as well as the
natural benefits of good behavoir. (Such as ... when children behave
well in public places, it makes for a more peaceful envrionment. When
children misbehave in public, they disturb those around them, make it
difficult to carry on a conversation, break things, dirty up the
place, etc.)

| Both punishment and reward focus on after the fact - that is after
the
| behavior you are trying to control has already happenned at least
| once. You then attempt to modify the behavior for the next time,
but
| you are not addressing the reasons for the behavior and hence you
| keep the locus of control external so that the child is prepared to
| follow orders, but doesn't know *why* he should or what is wrong
about
| the behavior.


Proper punishment would include an explanation of the root of the
problem. For "religious" people this might also include a Bible verse.
It all traces back to good character and living at peace with others.

| When a child makes a mistake, you correct it, but you need to teach
| him why what he did is wrong. Sometimes, it is only because it
| irritates you and the behavior itself is not really wrong.. In the
| case of when a child should go to bed, this is certainly true.
| Children as all humans *will* sleep when they are tired and the
| fact that their sleep times are inconvenient for the adults is not
| *wrong* and should certainly not be punished. You can encourage
| them to have their sleep schedule in line with your needs, but it
| doesn't help to ignore their physical needs by trying to make them
| sleep on *your* schedule because *you* need time to yourself or
| because *you* don't want to deal with them after a certain hour of
the
| day or night.

I agree with the first two sentences of the paragraph above. For the
rest, I have to say again that I disagree. I expect to get flamed for
this, but in the families that we know, the children whose parents
allow them to stay up till all hours ... they are truly horribly
behaved. I believe sleep is SO important to children, and it makes
such a difference in their behavior. Of course, this might just be my
experience. Others might have a totally different experience to share.
But for me, when my daughter stays up late ... she's just crazy and
grumpy, and has a really hard time focusing, listening, and obeying.
I've had other moms say the same thing about their children. Behavior
is improved with adequate sleep. It helps keep them focused.

| Positive discipline takes a proactive approach. You can encourage
| your child to go to bed at a regular time by creating a routine that

| *says* bedtime. You can also insure that he stays in his room and
| plays quietly though you cannot make him sleep. The less reaction
| s/he gets when s/he does come out of the room, the better, btw,
unless
| you intend to reinforce attention-getting behavior.

Or you could make the consequences of leaving their rooms so
unpleasant that they're motivated to obey the rules the following
nights. JMHO! ;-)

Cheers,
Bip

[toto]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:53:32 GMT, "Bippy" >
wrote:

>Seriously, when bribes and reward charts don't work, reasoning and
>pleading have failed, sometimes you just have to find their "sweet
>spot" and threaten it

Rewards and bribes are not *positive discipline*

They are simply the other end of the popularization of behaviorist
theory and they also don't work


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[toto]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:53:32 GMT, "Bippy" >
wrote:

>Actually, they *are* synonyms. ;-) www.m-w.com

Discipline comes from the same latin root as disciple.

It's meaning is to teach.. Punishment and rewards are
in some cases considered part of discipline, but in actuality
they are not effective in inculcating self-control and self-
discipline which is what parents are aiming for.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[dragonlady]

In article >,
toto > wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:17:53 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> > wrote:
>
> > There are no monsters, nothing in this room will harm you,
> >goodnight"
> >
> >???????
>
> No, that belittles her fears.
>

well, yes and no

It's OK to tell her there are no monsters: that's just a statement of
fact. It doesn't do any good, and DOES belittle her, to insist that she
has to stop being afraid: she IS afraid, and that, too, is just a
statement of fact.

I never did the "monster spray", as (imho) it just gave truth to their
fears: after all, if there were really no monsters, why use monster
spray? I DID talk (and listen) to their fears, and acknowledged that
they were afraid. I left the door open if they wanted it, and the
lights on if they wanted it. (Actually, this became a problem from a
different point of view: with 3 kids in one bedroom, they didn't always
have the same light and door needs and desires . . . but that's a
different post.) I also read books like "Where the Wild Things Are" and
other books about making friends with your fears.

When one of my kids seemed to be taking it over the top -- she had had
some nightmares and was terribly afraid of having more, and told me that
when the room got quiet she started imagining the nightmares she MIGHT
have and her own imagination scared her -- I found a small Buddha statue
and gave it to her. We talked about some of the things the Buddha
taught: one thing he taught is that we can control where our mind goes.
We may not be able to control the things that fly into it, but WE decide
what it is we want to think about. Exercising your ability to do that
-- to control what you spend time thinking about -- is as important as
exercising your body. So we put the statue in her room and I told her
that every time a scary thought entered her mind, she should look at the
statue and remind herself that SHE was in charge of what she thought
about, and turn her mind to something pleasant. For this particular
child -- a strong willed kid and then some -- this worked wonders. I
discovered her packing it away for sleepovers, including youth group
stuff at church, for years!

Favorite Buddhist inspired song: "Though the birds of worry and woe fly
over your head, don't let them build nests in your hair."

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"James and Karen Stewart" > wrote:

> Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
> all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
> useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.
> When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to your bed NOW
> !!!" We take her back up, cover her again and shut her door, she is
> crying and screaming back " I'm scared, I'm really really scared"
> Then I go back in tell her " If you don't go to bed whatever you are scared
> of in here is nothing to what you should be scared of ...ME!!!"
> "GO TO SLEEP !!!!!!!!" the screaming continues...so how to I be more
> strict without holding her down or gluing her to the bed. ??? Or geting a
> strait jacket for her so she can't open the door !!....HEHE
>
> Thanks for all suggestions
>
> KAren
>
>

It sounds as though your household is in an incredibly negative cycle
regarding bedtime, and something rather drastic may need to be done to
break the cycle.

This is kind of a bizarre suggestion, but you might try attacking it
from the other end: try telling them that you are going to set the
get-up time, but you are going to let them set their own bedtime: the
only rule is that they have to go into their rooms and change into
pajamas (or whatever other evening ritual you want) when they go to bed.
Then start getting the kids up REALLY EARLY in the morning (like 6 AM or
even earlier). Explain that if they start to fall asleep in the living
room, you will know that it is bedtime, and they will have to go to bed,
because they've gotten too big to carry -- but as long as they are awake
and want to be awake, when they go to bed is up to them, at least for
the rest of the summer. You will have to pay enough attention to jog
them awake whenever they start to drift off -- but do it cheerfully and
with some sort of raucaus activity. You might eliminate any TV or
videos in the evening. Try to stick with it *without comment on the
time they choose to go to bed* for at least three weeks: the first ten
days at least for them to believe that they are really choosing their
own bedtime, the next for them to figure out when they are tired enough
to go to sleep. Since they don't usually nap, you may have to work at
keeping them awake during the day -- but do it. The most important
thing will be consistency and cheerfulness.

The hard part is that YOU will have to get up at 0-dark-thirty every
day, and drag them out of bed.

However, by putting them in charge of bedtime, they MAY figure out how
much sleep they need and how to go to bed at night without the two hours
of misery.

This is sort of a variant of what I did when my kids were older: I told
them that once they could get up on their own, with their own alarm
clock, and get dressed and breakfasted and to school on time without me
having to wake them or do any nagging, they could set their own bedtime.
For us, that worked like a charm. My oldest stayed up ALL NIGHT the
first night -- and found out why I usually sent her to bed earlier.

Alternatively, you might even say that for the next four weeks, there
will be NO bedtime, and they can set their own schedules completely;
that wouldn't work well for me, I don't think, but it might break the
cycle of what HAS been happening enough to allow a new pattern once
school starts.

Mostly, I think when a household has fallen into a negitive cycle about
anything, some sort of drastic change may be the only way to break the
cycle -- and those are the most drastic changes *I* can think of.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[toto]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 02:11:29 GMT, dragonlady
> wrote:

>well, yes and no
>
>It's OK to tell her there are no monsters: that's just a statement of
>fact. It doesn't do any good, and DOES belittle her, to insist that she
>has to stop being afraid: she IS afraid, and that, too, is just a
>statement of fact.

Yours is a good approach, imo.

I like to use more imagination in terms of allowing kids to
*conquer* the monsters, but that is just different styles and
not difference in substance.

Both your posts give good advice, imo... And the OP can
take what she likes from either of us and leave the things
she dislikes out.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[R. Steve Walz]

Bippy wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "toto" >
> Newsgroups: misc.kids
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: discipline
>
> | No, that's not discipline. Punishment and discipline are not
> | synonyms.
>
> Actually, they *are* synonyms. ;-) www.m-w.com
--------------
Only because of human **** who think that way, in other words,
usage by a fraction of the populace has NO relation to Truth!


> Seriously, when bribes and reward charts don't work, reasoning and
> pleading have failed, sometimes you just have to find their "sweet
> spot" and threaten it. For a social child, you might tell them if they
> come out of their room they'll be grounded. For children who love
> their TV, they would lose that priviledge. Or it might mean losing
> sweets or soda for a while, or missing a special event coming up, or a
> playdate. Consider what they love the most at that particular moment
> and threaten to yank it if they disobey. Nothing wrong with that.
--------------------
You deserve to be dragged to the curb and shot through the head.
What you recommend is PRECISELY what causes all the evil on earth!!

You're a vicious abusive cowardly little religious bigot.
And you're nothing but live human ****.
Steve

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
blacksalt > wrote:

>I was number 6, and it was always my father's job to get us to bed. We
>had a ritual, as I recall bathing, brushing and a read story. If I
>didn't seem ready to go to sleep promptly, he lay in bed with me, in the
>dark, with my head on his arm, and we **very quietly** talked. Sometimes
>he sang Swanee River, very quietly, sometimes we talked about a spider
>on the ceiling (who was wandering around because he dropped his lolly
>pop), or he told stories. Sometimes we did slow, even breathing
>together, and relaxed one limb at a time. When I was definitely sleepy,
>he'd put on the nightlight (I was terribly afraid of monsters), and tip

I do not remember being afraid of monsters and AFAIK none of my kids
were either. At least I didn't believe in monsters and they never had
any trouble sleeping or ever told me they were afraid of monsters. I
don't know if this is inherited or not?

My mom did not let us see any scarey movies and my kids didn't see
much TV either because in those days (40 years ago) it wasn't common
to have more than one set, there was no cable to speak of, no video
tapes - altogether a simpler time.

My sister and I were 2.5 years apart, and we were read the same books.
There was no - different books for different ages stuff. My two
oldest are 2 years apart, and they also had the same books read to
them.

Of course some of this may be because we shared a bedroom and my
oldest two shared a bedroom until they were 2nd and 4th grades.

>toe out. I think it was like a kind of child hypnosis...and took a good
>part of his time, given all the years he did it for all of us.
>The summer I had my niece and nephew, it was the same thing, only I
>never had to lay in bed with them and talk. They did take a hour of my
>nights with the ritual, however. When they seemed alittle restless, I'd
>have them sleep on the porch (the 'thrill of camping') in their bags and
>I'd lay on the floor this side of the door and tell them a last story
>while they looked at the stars.
>Personally, I'd start a ritual, staying with her until she fell asleep
>if necessary, and then start paring back. But be prepared to give up an
>hour of your evening. I felt just *cherished* by my father, and that was
>probably the secret.
>blacksalt

It sounds like that to me too. We were on a train trip and my sister
wanted my dad to read her a story. It was about midnight. My dad was
working on something, and he said he'd read her a story if she could
stay awake until he finished what he was doing. She was asleep almost
instantly.

I used the same technique with mine when I wanted them to take a nap.
If they were still awake after lying quiet and still on their bed for
15 minutes, then they could get up and play quietly in their room
until their sister woke up from her nap. And the younger sister often
did take a nap. (If she didn't lie quiet, then the time started over)

It sounds to me like a couple of things with the OP.

First - she has an unrealistic idea of what discipline is and what is
effective behavior modification for a child. So what she is doing is
not working, and she doesn't know how to change it.

Second- the children have gotten into the habit of getting attention
by crying and acting out. And your son wants to be with his parents
on the couch where interesting stuff is going on.

There are several approaches to take.

1) As someone else (meh) suggested, don't have a bedtime, but an
enforced getting up time. You might do that anyway even without the
idea that they can set their own bedtime. Very good idea.

2) When you want her/them to go to bed, you and your husband take them
(one each) up to bed, put them in bed and stay with them for a
reasonable amount of time. Leave the lights on if they want. Or a
radio or nightlights or whatever seems reasonable. Let them decide
whether they want a light and what kind. Or if they want the door
open or not.

Then go into your bedroom. Tell the children that you will be there
if there is an emergency, but otherwise they are not to disturb you.
If they come out of their rooms, don't speak to them, just take them
back to bed. No screaming or shouting or even talking - just take
them back to bed every time they come out of their room. It may take
some time since they will not believe that behavior that has been
successful will not be successful again if they persist.

That way, there isn't any reason for ds to fall asleep on the couch -
no one will be there to cuddle with.

If you and dh want to watch TV, maybe get a small set for the bedroom,
but don't use it at first. And don't let them get into bed with you
unless you want to do that.


grandma Rosalie

[James and Karen Stewart]

I think that poart of this problem was caused by having them in my bed when
they were babies, it started with the breastfeeding,bringing them into my
bed to feed during the night. Then as they grew they just would wake in the
middle of the night thinking it was the community bed they would climb in.
I and my hubby most times would not wake up when they did this so they would
stay all night.

I must say that last night was a good night with my DD. What we did
yesterday is set down a list of rules, I made them up ...asking for input on
what should be her bedtime, she clearly doesn't yet understand time after
telling me 7:00.....seeing as right now it isn't even dark at 7 pm, it would
be hard for her to go to bed then ( this tends to be a complaint "it isn't
dark yet" she tells me that when it is bedtime and no dark, assuming it must
be dark for bedtime). Anyhow I made up 3 rules last night, one being
that she is to remeber to ask for her snakc if she wants one beofre going up
the stairs and that bedtime is at 8:30-9:00 and that by 9:00 she must be in
bed, with no complaints of not being tired or being thirsty.
I also made up a few other rules, one to do with picking up her toys and
cleaning her room when she is asked and respecting mom and dad when we
request these things to be done. If she doesn't do what she is asked then
she will not be able to go out of the yard to play or not be able to watch
her cartoons, or no movie night etc.

She seems to understand that she needs to do certain things, she just needs
to know the consequences.
So last night we did a really fast bath thanks to DH, the kids had decided
to put the wet sand all over their legs, so a bath was needed. After bath
they got dreses ( with some help for DS) and then they asked for a snack,
after snack it was 9;00 and up to bed she went, I took her up and she asked
for daddy to come up and say goodnight to, so he did. In the meantime DS
had cuddle up on the couch with his horsey and he was nearly asleep when DH
came back down from saying night to DD.

So all in all, we had from 9:20- 10:30 to ourselves, then we went to bed,
having had a nice adult relaxing time, quiet time, and some adult
conversation.

Karen


"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
> x-no-archive:yes
> blacksalt > wrote:
>
> >I was number 6, and it was always my father's job to get us to bed. We
> >had a ritual, as I recall bathing, brushing and a read story. If I
> >didn't seem ready to go to sleep promptly, he lay in bed with me, in the
> >dark, with my head on his arm, and we **very quietly** talked. Sometimes
> >he sang Swanee River, very quietly, sometimes we talked about a spider
> >on the ceiling (who was wandering around because he dropped his lolly
> >pop), or he told stories. Sometimes we did slow, even breathing
> >together, and relaxed one limb at a time. When I was definitely sleepy,
> >he'd put on the nightlight (I was terribly afraid of monsters), and tip
>
> I do not remember being afraid of monsters and AFAIK none of my kids
> were either. At least I didn't believe in monsters and they never had
> any trouble sleeping or ever told me they were afraid of monsters. I
> don't know if this is inherited or not?
>
> My mom did not let us see any scarey movies and my kids didn't see
> much TV either because in those days (40 years ago) it wasn't common
> to have more than one set, there was no cable to speak of, no video
> tapes - altogether a simpler time.
>
> My sister and I were 2.5 years apart, and we were read the same books.
> There was no - different books for different ages stuff. My two
> oldest are 2 years apart, and they also had the same books read to
> them.
>
> Of course some of this may be because we shared a bedroom and my
> oldest two shared a bedroom until they were 2nd and 4th grades.
>
> >toe out. I think it was like a kind of child hypnosis...and took a good
> >part of his time, given all the years he did it for all of us.
> >The summer I had my niece and nephew, it was the same thing, only I
> >never had to lay in bed with them and talk. They did take a hour of my
> >nights with the ritual, however. When they seemed alittle restless, I'd
> >have them sleep on the porch (the 'thrill of camping') in their bags and
> >I'd lay on the floor this side of the door and tell them a last story
> >while they looked at the stars.
> >Personally, I'd start a ritual, staying with her until she fell asleep
> >if necessary, and then start paring back. But be prepared to give up an
> >hour of your evening. I felt just *cherished* by my father, and that was
> >probably the secret.
> >blacksalt
>
> It sounds like that to me too. We were on a train trip and my sister
> wanted my dad to read her a story. It was about midnight. My dad was
> working on something, and he said he'd read her a story if she could
> stay awake until he finished what he was doing. She was asleep almost
> instantly.
>
> I used the same technique with mine when I wanted them to take a nap.
> If they were still awake after lying quiet and still on their bed for
> 15 minutes, then they could get up and play quietly in their room
> until their sister woke up from her nap. And the younger sister often
> did take a nap. (If she didn't lie quiet, then the time started over)
>
> It sounds to me like a couple of things with the OP.
>
> First - she has an unrealistic idea of what discipline is and what is
> effective behavior modification for a child. So what she is doing is
> not working, and she doesn't know how to change it.
>
> Second- the children have gotten into the habit of getting attention
> by crying and acting out. And your son wants to be with his parents
> on the couch where interesting stuff is going on.
>
> There are several approaches to take.
>
> 1) As someone else (meh) suggested, don't have a bedtime, but an
> enforced getting up time. You might do that anyway even without the
> idea that they can set their own bedtime. Very good idea.
>
> 2) When you want her/them to go to bed, you and your husband take them
> (one each) up to bed, put them in bed and stay with them for a
> reasonable amount of time. Leave the lights on if they want. Or a
> radio or nightlights or whatever seems reasonable. Let them decide
> whether they want a light and what kind. Or if they want the door
> open or not.
>
> Then go into your bedroom. Tell the children that you will be there
> if there is an emergency, but otherwise they are not to disturb you.
> If they come out of their rooms, don't speak to them, just take them
> back to bed. No screaming or shouting or even talking - just take
> them back to bed every time they come out of their room. It may take
> some time since they will not believe that behavior that has been
> successful will not be successful again if they persist.
>
> That way, there isn't any reason for ds to fall asleep on the couch -
> no one will be there to cuddle with.
>
> If you and dh want to watch TV, maybe get a small set for the bedroom,
> but don't use it at first. And don't let them get into bed with you
> unless you want to do that.
>
>
> grandma Rosalie

[James and Karen Stewart]

Putting kids to bed early is abuse,...O.K....... If you say so....(What
EVER!!!)

Putting kids to bed early is not JUST so we can have sex, we like to have
some time alone together to talk about adult stuff, bills, trips, house
chores/ yard work, upcoming birthdays for the children , Xmas...... etc.
not just so we can have sex, ( and by the way...just so you know...the lack
of sex in a marriage is another stress put on top of the kids not listening
and behaving as we wish them to...... )

Putting kids to bed early, if they are not truely tired does not do anything
for them it only gives the parents alone time, but I am not doing that...my
child telling me she is not tired is only an excuse, which she has used many
times, and if you cry wolf often enough nobody will believe you.....and this
is what she has done, she has sat on my couch half asleep, yawning and then
when we say it's bed time she says "but I'm not tired", in a voice that
sounds like it just woke up. It is not that she is not tired it is that
she kows we are still up and she doesn't want to miss something.

I am not forcing her to go to sleep but she can read and she can look at a
book quietly in her room if she is truely not tired, I have no problem with
that. I am at home with her and my son all day, at 9 pm it is time for me
time, a break from them.

I am not ashamed that I would like to have some time to myslef and time
alone with my husband so we can have sex once in a while..... I don't agree
that you should put on a video and tell the kids to watch it so we can go
have sex and come back all happy..... I don't think we should leave the door
opened either.

I don't know if you have kids, but soething tells me you don't and if you
do you shouldn't !!



"R. Steve Walz" > wrote in message
...
> James and Karen Stewart wrote:
> >
> > Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ???
Or
> > is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want
the
> > kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great. I find
myself
> > doing bathtime, and then snack and then trying to get them into bed and
> > having my 6 year old tell me she is not tired...I tell her that she
doesn't
> > have to sleep just go to bed and read a book if she wants to.
> >
> > She doesn't want to go to bed alone..she wants my husband or me to
stay
> > with her. Mainly the reason for this is she says she is scared in her
room
> > alone..... We have a two storey house and I am wondering what I can doto
> > make her less afraid up their alone. She doesn't read scary books or
watch
> > a scary show before bed, and I have gone in her closet in the dark to
prove
> > to her that there is nothing in there.
> >
> > What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
> > night.
> >
> > She will be going to school everyday come Sept. so I need to get this
> > problem fixed.
> >
> > Hubby and I haven't had even an hour or down/alone time at night for the
> > last 2 weeks. We are going insane...sometimes you need just a few hours
> > alone a week, but there is just no time for us to be alone together
lately.
> > Please don't suggest that we go out for supper and get a
sitter...because we
> > do get time alone....just not often. The kids will be going to their
> > grandparents for a few night and we are going away overnight in Aug.
but
> > it's just the last two weeks have been a pain and a really trying time
for
> > us with the kids.
> >
> > Also my son wants to cuddle on the couch everynight with me and fall
> > asleep with me. Come Sept he will be starting Junior kindergardten and
will
> > need to fall asleep earlier in his own bed. I have tried to suggest
> > cuddling in his bed but he wants to cuddle on the couch.
> >
> > Any ideas
> > Thanks
> > Karen
> -------------------
> You want time for sex, but you're couching it in terms inspired
> by your shame, which stimulates you to anger and resentment, thus angry
> efforts at "discipline".
>
> Instead, interest your children in leaving you alone and watching
> a tape in the next room while you have sex in the bedroom. If
> you're not sane enough to leave the door open, and make sex appear
> normal to your children, then at least tell them that you have to
> take a half hour or so doing what mommies and daddies have to do
> together to stay married. Then come out and cuddle with them
> afterwards and they will feel the relaxed difference in your
> demeanor and know that you did something very nice together.
>
> You see, this whole thing REALLY isn't about "discipline" at all,
> it's about getting everyone's needs met, and you can ask that of
> your kids if you're nice to them, and they will help you. But honor
> their feelings and needs, and they will honor yours gladly!
>
> But putting kids to bed early is merely abuse, they simply aren't
> tired yet anymore than you are. You're simply taking unfair advantage
> of your size, and that will cost you a LOT later when they're older!!
> Steve

[0tterbot]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 02:11:29 GMT, dragonlady
> > wrote:
>
> >well, yes and no
> >
> >It's OK to tell her there are no monsters: that's just a statement of
> >fact. It doesn't do any good, and DOES belittle her, to insist that she
> >has to stop being afraid: she IS afraid, and that, too, is just a
> >statement of fact.
>
> Yours is a good approach, imo.
>
> I like to use more imagination in terms of allowing kids to
> *conquer* the monsters, but that is just different styles and
> not difference in substance.
>
> Both your posts give good advice, imo... And the OP can
> take what she likes from either of us and leave the things
> she dislikes out.

just to give the third variation - after trying to convince my older son
when he was little that there were no monsters (& failing spectacularly as
you'd expect) we gave him an anti-monster charm & i changed my line to *i*
don't believe in monsters (while saying it was ok that he does, because we
could fix the problem). he didn't believe in monsters very long after that.
with my little son i always just said that i don't believe in monsters
(didn't bother trying to convince him otherwise.) he was more curious about
different ways to get rid of them (he enjoyed hearing that monsters are
scared of mummies & that's why we won't get any, because they are all scared
of me & i don't believe in them anyway so they can't come in. it doesn't
make logical sense but it worked for him. at the end of the day, what he
apparently thought might have been a monster outside was in fact some other
noise (can't remember what) which occurred at bedtime one night so i could
explain what it was & he doesn't worry any more.)

to make a long story short, i think where evidence of no monster activity
can possibly be presented, it should be, while acknowledging that the child
may still believe in them, but his parents will help allay his fear & help
him feel powerful.

i do think that fear of monsters in children over 5-ish isn't fear of
monsters, but fear of something else (or possibly delaying tactics, or
possibly both.)
kylie

[0tterbot]

"James and Karen Stewart" > wrote in message
.. .
> I think that poart of this problem was caused by having them in my bed
when
> they were babies, it started with the breastfeeding,bringing them into my
> bed to feed during the night. Then as they grew they just would wake in
the
> middle of the night thinking it was the community bed they would climb in.
> I and my hubby most times would not wake up when they did this so they
would
> stay all night.

no, that's not it at all :-) my older son was getting in bed with us until
it finally petered out at 6. my younger son (who spent much more time in
there as a baby) has done it, iirc, only twice since he left my bed at 7
mos. i just assumed that my older son got comfort from it, or it was a
comfort habit for him that he got into, & my younger one just never needed
it though he does know he's always welcome to get in in the night if he's
scared. some kids just like it & others don't bother.

> I must say that last night was a good night with my DD.

that's good!! :-)
kylie

[user]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 09:15:39 -0400, James and Karen Stewart > wrote:
> Putting kids to bed early is abuse,...O.K....... If you say so....(What
> EVER!!!)
>

R.S.W. is the resident net.kook. Your choices are either to killfile him, if you
don't like net.kooks, or to use him as fodder for never-ending, mindless
entertainment, sort of like watching Survivor. ;-)

Sometimes he actually says something meaningful, but it tends to be because
of the infinite monkeys/infinite typewriters effect...

- Rich

[Sue]

Stop screaming and be firm and nonchalant as you can. I think you are doing
what I do too much of and that is talking too much. Talk less, make
expectations clear and follow through. Tell her it is time for bed, read her
a book, get her snack. When you are done reading the book, and if she is not
tired, then give her some more books to look at or get a tape recorder of
her own so she can listen to books or music. Giving her a flashlight may
even help. I know it did for my daughter. If she comes down again, take her
back upstairs without a lot of talking or reprimanding. Keep doing this and
be consistent and she will soon learn that you won't budge on this. What
bothers me is that she sounds like my 6-year-old in that she is probably
really afraid. Can you not just sit with her for a while until she is
relaxed enough? On the nights that were really bad with my daughter, I would
either let her sleep with me or I would go sleep with her or at least stay
until she was calmed down. I don't think it helps at all to belittle her for
her fears. I think you need to find the underlying cause of why she doesn't
want to go to sleep. Perhaps during the day, when she is calm, talk about
her fears, ask what scares her and talk through it. Perhaps she has some
ideas of what would help her go to sleep. Putting my daughter in with her
older sister has helped a lot, but now she won't go to bed without her
sister, but it works for me for all of my girls to go to bed at the same
time.

Monsters were a big problem with my now 6-year-old and started when she was
three. I don't like the monster spray idea because after you say there are
no monsters, but then get the monster spray, it is kind of hypocritical. I
empowered my daughter and told her to tell the monsters that she is afraid
of to go away. I left a light on in her room and I let her look under the
bed and in the attic to give her control of her fears. The books that
someone has mentioned are the same books I read. I am just really consistent
with bedtime and as a result, I don't have many issues surrounding it. I
have a lot of problems with *positive disipline* also Karen, so you're not
alone. It is very hard to change the way you are used to disiplining, but I
think you owe it to yourself and you're kids, if you find a new technique. I
have been reading Love and Logic and I can't say enough good things about
the book. Maybe you can read it and it will give you some better techniques
to use. Good luck. Email me if you want to vent or scream, I can relate very
well to how you are feeling.

Oh, and killfile Steve. He is an idiot and not to be listened to.

--
Sue
mom to three girls

James and Karen Stewart > wrote in message
...
> Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel
like
> all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
> useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.
> When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to your bed
NOW
> !!!" We take her back up, cover her again and shut her door, she is
> crying and screaming back " I'm scared, I'm really really scared"
> Then I go back in tell her " If you don't go to bed whatever you are
scared
> of in here is nothing to what you should be scared of ...ME!!!"
> "GO TO SLEEP !!!!!!!!" the screaming continues...so how to I be more
> strict without holding her down or gluing her to the bed. ??? Or geting a
> strait jacket for her so she can't open the door !!....HEHE
>
> Thanks for all suggestions
>
> KAren
>
>
>
> "James and Karen Stewart" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Am I the only one who finds it hard to discipline the children ???
Or
> > is the a common problem ? I have a hard time with bed time. I want
the
> > kids to go to bed at a certain time 8:30-9:00 would be great. I find
> myself
> > doing bathtime, and then snack and then trying to get them into bed and

> > having my 6 year old tell me she is not tired...I tell her that she
> doesn't
> > have to sleep just go to bed and read a book if she wants to.
> >
> > She doesn't want to go to bed alone..she wants my husband or me to
> stay
> > with her. Mainly the reason for this is she says she is scared in her
> room
> > alone..... We have a two storey house and I am wondering what I can doto
> > make her less afraid up their alone. She doesn't read scary books or
> watch
> > a scary show before bed, and I have gone in her closet in the dark to
> prove
> > to her that there is nothing in there.
> >
> > What can I do to get her to go upstairs and go to bed before 10-10:30 at
> > night.
> >
> > She will be going to school everyday come Sept. so I need to get this
> > problem fixed.
> >
> > Hubby and I haven't had even an hour or down/alone time at night for the
> > last 2 weeks. We are going insane...sometimes you need just a few hours
> > alone a week, but there is just no time for us to be alone together
> lately.
> > Please don't suggest that we go out for supper and get a
sitter...because
> we
> > do get time alone....just not often. The kids will be going to their
> > grandparents for a few night and we are going away overnight in Aug.
but
> > it's just the last two weeks have been a pain and a really trying time
for
> > us with the kids.
> >
> > Also my son wants to cuddle on the couch everynight with me and fall
> > asleep with me. Come Sept he will be starting Junior kindergardten and
> will
> > need to fall asleep earlier in his own bed. I have tried to suggest
> > cuddling in his bed but he wants to cuddle on the couch.
> >
> >
> > Any ideas
> > Thanks
> > Karen
> >
> >
>
>

[Daye]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:22:46 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> wrote:

>Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
>all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
>useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.

Then don't yell. Kids don't listen to you when you yell.

This is how I handle it. "Go to bed." <insert argument> "I
understand. Now go to bed." <insert next argument> *You* get up,
and take the child by the hand -- gently -- and say, "I understand.
Now go to bed." Then lead the child to bed. Do NOT raise your voice.

When you get to the bedroom, address the child's fears, if any.
Compromise with the child if they want you to stay. For example, "I
will stay for 5 mins then I will leave." Hopefully, the child will be
asleep in that 5 mins. If not, kiss the child goodnight, and then
leave.

Yelling isn't going to get you anywhere. Just speak matter-of-factly
and to the point, but do not raise your voice.

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan
EDD 11 Jan 2004

[Chookie]

I am not quite sure whether the OP believes that their child is really scared
of the dark/monsters or not. I don't find it hard to believe that a 6yo
would be frightened and would suggest a night-light.

Positive discipline, to me, is making it easy for children to be good. That
is, I think the focus is *preventative* rather than *punitive*. A night-light
would help the child feel safe in bed at night, and therefore is preventative.
But take this as the suggestion of someone who hasn't been there yet -- my DS
is only 2.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"...children should continue to be breastfed... for up to two years of age
or beyond." -- Innocenti Declaration, Florence, 1 August 1990

[Chookie]

In article >,
(GI Trekker) wrote:

> You don't "get" a child to do something, you "make" them
> do something. Anything else is letting your children rule the home, and
> that's wrong.

So compulsion through fear is right, is it? Thanks, but I would prefer to see
my child *want* to do what is right. It is not so much a matter of ruling the
home, but of ruling themselves. If my child only behaves rightly out of fear,
he has no self-discipline.

Think about it. Which boss produces better workers -- one who threatens you
with the sack, or one who you like and trust?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"...children should continue to be breastfed... for up to two years of age
or beyond." -- Innocenti Declaration, Florence, 1 August 1990

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:17:53 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> wrote:

>What do I do to enforce an earlier bedtime but using positive discipline.,
>That is what do I say to hear whenshe comes out of her room, that would be
>in the positive discipline form.
>"It's time for bed" "let's go back to your room" " it's quiet time, shut
>your eyes and relax "..... all the while she is crying because I am leaving
>and she doesn't want me to leave her room because she is scared of the
>monsters. " There are no monsters, nothing in this room will harm you,
>goodnight"

Well, there arent anu fix all solutions, but, as a child that was
terrified of being in his or her room

First, I would suggest a routine that involves both of you (and if
this is how you do it now, I apologize. My kids go to sleep with a
light and soft music.

Make a bedtime routine, or even more than you have. In our house, we
say good night, and go upstairs. Then we have a bath, change and so
on. We fix the beds, get the things that we will sleep with tonight,
fix the light and so on. Then mom or dad reads a story, and sit with
kid for awhile. This takes time and patience, and yes, we did it
with more than one.

It also helped me unwind greatly. We always picked up and washed the
dishes before bedtime, so that left me time to even fall asleep in the
chair next if I wanted.

I wont address the monster issue as others have said it all.

Lastly, you cannot make a child sleep. In our house, y ou have to be
washed up, in bed and so on by a certain time. However, children who
cannot sleep may read in bed, play with a quiet toy, listen to music
iwth the light on and so on.

I think the thing in general with positive discipline is that it
requires some work and originality. Its worth it in the long run

Barb

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:22:46 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> wrote:

>Alot of you have said stricter, but how do you get stricter, We feel like
>all we do is yell, and it is makig us both feel depressed and
>useless...like we may as well be talking to the wall.
>When she comes out of her room we are screaming at her "get to your bed NOW
>!!!"

Okay, well, first of all, one can be stricct without screaming. I am
the disciplinarian, I am often "strict" according to my teenagers and
I never scream. Even at an 800 dollar cell phone bill. (which is
another store, and a sad mistake)

How about if we replace the word strict with the words firm and
consistent.

[Penny Gaines]

Barbara Bomberger wrote in >:

>
> I wont address the monster issue as others have said it all.

I was thinking about this: if I went on the newsgroup and said I couldn't
sleep at night because I was worried about intruders, people might well
treat my worries seriously, no matter how unlikely my house was to have
intruders.

Why can't a 6yo be genuinely scared of monsters, even if us adults believe
they don't exist?

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[James and Karen Stewart]

I think it's because I can tell her that we are in the house and we are
here to protect her..... not that her being scared of te monster in her
closest is not a real problem.

"Penny Gaines" > wrote in message
...
> Barbara Bomberger wrote in >:
>
> >
> > I wont address the monster issue as others have said it all.
>
> I was thinking about this: if I went on the newsgroup and said I couldn't
> sleep at night because I was worried about intruders, people might well
> treat my worries seriously, no matter how unlikely my house was to have
> intruders.
>
> Why can't a 6yo be genuinely scared of monsters, even if us adults believe
> they don't exist?
>
> --
> Penny Gaines
> UK mum to three

[P. Tierney]

"GI Trekker" > wrote:
>
> THAT'S discipline.

By your definition only.

> You don't "get" a child to do something, you "make" them do something.

Eventually, kids need to make their own decisions, and need to know
why something is right beyond "Daddy said so". The latter keeps the
kid ignorant and doesn't foster or encourage any understanding of
why things are done as they are.

> Anything else is letting your children rule the home, and that's wrong.

No, your false dichotomy is wrong. You include one in nearly every
one of your posts in a shallow effort to try to make your way appear to
be the only good way to go. But it doesn't work.

Now that I think about it, you post to adults in the same way that
you appear to speak to your kids: "What I say goes! You disagree
with me, go to your room." You cut off alternate opinions, rephrase
them in clearly inaccurate terms, and discourage explaination and
analysis. It's really sad.



P.
Tierney

[Sue]

> > Why can't a 6yo be genuinely scared of monsters, even if us adults
believe
> > they don't exist?
> >
> > --
> > Penny Gaines
> > UK mum to three

James and Karen Stewart > wrote in message
...
> I think it's because I can tell her that we are in the house and we are
> here to protect her..... not that her being scared of te monster in her
> closest is not a real problem.

Telling my daughter that didn't help. Her fears were real and no amount of
me telling her that the doors were locked, the dog was here, dad and mom are
here. Nothing like that worked. Giving her the power to overcome her fears
worked better. Once I found out what exactly she was afraid of, was when we
were able to do something about it.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Sue]

James and Karen Stewart > wrote in message
> I know that she is scared of the dark, but she is scared when her closet
is
> not shut all the way, and we always leave the touch lamp on low for her
and
> shut it off when we go up to bed.

Try leaving it on all night. She probably wakes up and is scared when you
have turned it off. There is nothing wrong with leaving light on all night.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:47:48 -0400, "James and Karen Stewart"
> wrote:

>I think it's because I can tell her that we are in the house and we are
>here to protect her..... not that her being scared of te monster in her
>closest is not a real problem.

But it is a problem to Her, and children deserve to have their fears
taken seriously.

I have a child who slept with the light on until she was about twelve,
all night long. It made her able to sleep, mader her feel secure and
made for a quiet house.

Well worth it.

Barb