calm before the storm?

[Bebelestrnge0721]

I'm not so sure anyone is gonna be able to help much..........it gets hard
sometimes, like a dark cloud that hangs over our heads. I dared to try to be
happy. I know why part of me is restless today and maybe I can see some light
later... maybe tomorrow.........
When my daughter got pregnant I had to do a lot of soul searching , I
had to consider many thoughts that flooded my brain. S had had severe problems
emotionally , I believe caused by G's death, I was not sure S could be a good
mom to this baby,I looked at how her behavior had gotten "normal teenage" and
how far she had come and changed since the first year that we learned to cope
with a death that so changed our complete existence. I know she wants to be a
good mom but wanting to be may not be enough. I am not saying she is being a
bad mom but things are not looking very good at the moment. More and more I see
her pushing for more time away from the baby than with. She has also started
cutting again. Now what do I say when it is not me she is asking to tend to the
baby. She has the boyfriend take full responsibility when he is here and he is
here a lot. There are days she goes to school and he is here till the babies
bedtime that she litterally does nothing ( not even pay attention to the baby).
This is constant that she tends to the baby maybe 3-4 hours and if the baby
sleeps time spent is even less. The weekends the baby is home or "her weekends"
she has lately been calling her b/f's mom and asking her if she wants to take
her and it ends up over night many times which means the entire next day the
baby is gone as well. Now going to school limits her time with the baby as it
is. She just got her butt suspended from school for two days for verbally
abusing a teacher who she claims made a comment about "not seeing how she could
be a good mother" behaving as she does. I have an appt. tues. with the
principle who said he is checking into disorderly conduct charges, mind you if
this happens there is a good chance my daughter will be put in juvenile
detention because of her past in the legal system she just came off probation a
year ago for charges of assualting a teacher ( she had an episode of rage and
during restraint the teacher got hurt)
and pressed charges. I made the decision to support her keeping this baby
because of fear ........fear any more loss would put my daughter over the edge
and my fear of loss took over. Her behavior was 99.9% changed for a year and I
believed in my heart she would handle this. With our support she would be o.k.
She has threatened to end her life because I grounded her to the house and yard
until wed. when she goes back to school.I have to get her in for counsiling
again(we were taking a break) .............guess I've made another friggen
mistake.
Besides rambling a little off the top to ease some of the pressure building in
my head I feel no better, I am so so tired of trying to make good decisions and
failing.
My oldest has run into a major wall emotionally, I am sure it is the stress of
school, she has pushed her graduation farther for the third time, holding down
a
job to support herself and she says cause she pushed her graduation her aunt
is no longer obligated to pay her rent which was the agreement they made 3
years ago . I send what I can a few hundred a month if that sometimes, like
this month the radiator blew that.She is saying crap like "I am worthless"
"what made me think I could be somebody" and I know she is stressed and
probably depressed (she was on an anti depressant med a feww years back) she is
3000 miles away from me, just a kid of 22, Oh yeah they think they are grown
ups but *WE* know don't we ? I say come home and take a break, even live home
and go to the art institute in Philly an hour or so commute.............no she
doesn't want to leave her friends and she likes it in California.....argh
nothing mommy can do to make it better and that kills me..............I wanted
to move out there ya know to be closer and to be able to help her more, her dad
doesn't do more than he has to.I have a 16 yr old with a baby (I know don't say
it) that sounds suicidal , a 22 yr old 3000 miles away sounding suicidal and I
am torn right down the middle, I just don't know anymore which direction to run
and if I hide will they find me ? I would give my life for my children, but
somedays........................

[Purchgdss]

You don't mention how old the baby is......

My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for adoption. Your
daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality is too much
for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating between
caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the father or
HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't willing to do
that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....



Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

[Paul Fritz]

"Purchgdss" > wrote in message
...
> You don't mention how old the baby is......
>
> My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for adoption.
Your
> daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality is
too much
> for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating
between
> caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the
father or
> HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't willing
to do
> that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
>
>
>
> Just my 2 cents.........
> Christine


It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father involved he
would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the mother
than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
that may be the best scenario for the child

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>From: (Purchgdss)
>Date: 4/18/2004 9:23 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>You don't mention how old the baby is......

Jaime is 4 months old


>My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for adoption.

Why less than two?

>Your
>daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality is too
>much
>for her.

but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That she can
throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in ? You may be
right, but I am holding this kid to her choices, I never turned my back on her
and she will learn to stand up to her own responsibility. Wake up baby ! this
was your decision, reality has a name... Jaime-Gayle........

> If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating between
>caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the father or
>HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't willing to do
>that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
>

I know you mean well by suggesting adoption.......I know it is there........We
considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my granddaughter
and if my daughter can not do this I can and I will. I thought about this as
well "what if" and talked it over with my partner...we discussed abortion,
adoption ,and the end result was to take care of my daughters child should my
daughter not be able to at this time. My daughter and her boyfriend were the
main part of this decision, they were determined to have this baby and I
certainly did not want them to run away feeling unsupported. She got pregnant
for all the wrong reasons I am sure , she was replacing an emptiness , and she
is struggling but there are many reasons for the struggle, I don't think she
does not want the baby, I need to get her back into counsiling and have the
"why" looked at.Yes I am willing to care for my granddaughter, Untill my
daughter is ready or not .


>Just my 2 cents.........

your 2 cents is appreciated, thank you
Bev

>Christine
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Tiffany]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Purchgdss" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You don't mention how old the baby is......
> >
> > My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for
adoption.
> Your
> > daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality is
> too much
> > for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating
> between
> > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the
> father or
> > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't
willing
> to do
> > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
> >
> >
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.........
> > Christine
>
>
> It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father involved he
> would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the
mother
> than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
> that may be the best scenario for the child
>
>
>

Well, lets hope that no decision that major would be made with out
consulting the father. As young as he is, he seems to be taking way more
responsibility then the mother. I just think if an adoption would have taken
place, it would have been far easier at birth. But you are correct, it seems
better for the baby to be with paternal grandparents, if they are able.

T

[Joelle]

>My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for adoption.

I have to say, this sounds like the best option for the baby. This is a
terrible situation for the child to grow up in.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Joelle]

> With the father involved he
>would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the mother
>than responsible for paying CS.

I have a feeling though, if the option is only HIM taking care of the baby, he
may find adoption a bit more attractive.

>With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
>that may be the best scenario for the child


I thought the first problem presented was that parental grandparents were NOT
interested in the baby.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Joelle]

>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That she
>can
>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in

do you realize how many people you have just insulted with that understanding
of adoption. Giving the baby up for adoption is the most unselfish,
responsible, loving thing your daughter and her boyfriend can do for that baby.
You don't make her take care of her baby to punish her or teach her a lesson.
She's a child. She's not capable of raising a child. Admitting that and
letting an adult give that child a future is not a bad thing.

>.We
>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
>granddaughter

It's not too late. Stop thinking of yourself and how much you will miss the
baby. Look at what a mess that baby is in. You cannot take care of that baby
yourself, because your daughter, her mother and her messed up life is always
going to be interfering and screwing with the child.

I don't sense that you have thought about this in terms of the baby at all.
All you've thought about is your daughter, teaching your daughter a lesson,
supporting your daughter, yourself, your partner, what you want, what you love,
how you feel.

Step back from all that and think of what is best for that baby.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Paul Fritz]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That
she
> >can
> >throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in
>
> do you realize how many people you have just insulted with that
understanding
> of adoption. Giving the baby up for adoption is the most unselfish,
> responsible, loving thing your daughter and her boyfriend can do for
that baby.
> You don't make her take care of her baby to punish her or teach her a
lesson.
> She's a child. She's not capable of raising a child. Admitting that
and
> letting an adult give that child a future is not a bad thing.
>

I could not agree more.

[Purchgdss]

>If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating
>between
> > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the
>father or
> > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't willing
>to do
> > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.........
> > Christine
>
>
> It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father involved he
>would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the mother
>than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
>that may be the best scenario for the child
>
I'm sorry. I thought that was implied by mentioning the father or paternal
grandparents. Obviously that would be more ideal, but not always feasible or
would they be willing.

Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

[Purchgdss]

>>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>>From: (Purchgdss)
>>Date: 4/18/2004 9:23 AM Eastern Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>You don't mention how old the baby is......
>
>Jaime is 4 months old
>
>
>>My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for adoption.
>
>Why less than two?

Older children are harder to find families for, babies have a much easier time
being adopted. Most prospective parents aren't willing to give up watch the
majority of the infant milestones. <sigh>

And the constantly changing care givers have tremendous effectson the child the
longer it goes on, thereby increasing the possibility the child may have major
issues..

>
>>Your
>>daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality is too
>>much
>>for her.
>
>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That she
>can
>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in ? You may be
>right, but I am holding this kid to her choices, I never turned my back on
>her
>and she will learn to stand up to her own responsibility. Wake up baby ! this
>was your decision, reality has a name... Jaime-Gayle........

YOUR grandchild is not a tool for a lesson to be learned, she is a CHILD. Would
you be willing to sacrifice a human being for a "lesson"? No offense, but this
isn't a pet. On that same vein, if your daughter begged for a puppy and then
ignored it, would you keep it and let it suffer inattention or find it another
home where it would be showered with love and proper training?

>
>> If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating between
>>caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the father or
>>HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't willing to
>do
>>that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
>>
>
>I know you mean well by suggesting adoption.......I know it is
>there........We
>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
>granddaughter
>and if my daughter can not do this I can and I will. I thought about this as
>well "what if" and talked it over with my partner...we discussed abortion,
>adoption ,and the end result was to take care of my daughters child should my
>daughter not be able to at this time. My daughter and her boyfriend were the
>main part of this decision, they were determined to have this baby and I
>certainly did not want them to run away feeling unsupported. She got pregnant
>for all the wrong reasons I am sure , she was replacing an emptiness , and
>she
>is struggling but there are many reasons for the struggle, I don't think she
>does not want the baby, I need to get her back into counsiling and have the
>"why" looked at.Yes I am willing to care for my granddaughter, Untill my
>daughter is ready or not .

At what cost to your other daughter? and at what lesson to her? There are many
factors to consider here. Nothing is black and white. If your oldest daughter
gets pregnant again, are you willing to raise that one too? What about when
your younger comes of age?

Forgive me, I'm not trying to be difficult, but pointing out all the
probabilities here. Being short sighted further could cause many situations
that you might not have thought about. Have you considered getting your older
daughter on Depo-Provera?

Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

[xkatx]

"Joelle" wrote in message ...
> >but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That
she
> >can
> >throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in
>
> do you realize how many people you have just insulted with that
understanding
> of adoption. Giving the baby up for adoption is the most unselfish,
> responsible, loving thing your daughter and her boyfriend can do for that
baby.
> You don't make her take care of her baby to punish her or teach her a
lesson.
> She's a child. She's not capable of raising a child. Admitting that and
> letting an adult give that child a future is not a bad thing.

Joelle, it's called ignorance, and if someone has very little information
and facts about something, they are ignorant. It's not always a bad thing,
really, because I don't believe that ignorance is always intentional. I'll
also agree with what you said and I think you said it well enough that I
don't need to add anything.

> >.We
> >considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
> >granddaughter
>
> It's not too late. Stop thinking of yourself and how much you will miss
the
> baby. Look at what a mess that baby is in. You cannot take care of that
baby
> yourself, because your daughter, her mother and her messed up life is
always
> going to be interfering and screwing with the child.

It's never too late. Personal experiences have opened my own eyes up to the
hard reality that there are so many families out there that cannot have
children of their own. There are so many families who want a baby of their
own to love and teach and raise, and not every family is wanting a baby.
Many of those families are often willing to adopt a toddler or older child.
If you have children of your own, and CAN have children of your own, this is
something that you just can't understand. I've been there, done that, but I
still do not completely understand the actual emotions and thoughts of these
families.
I'm not sure about other places, but here we have open adoption. I assume
this is available a lot of other areas. I'm all about open adoption, and
although I still don't really want to admit it to myself, I do believe it's
a good thing for the right person/people.

> I don't sense that you have thought about this in terms of the baby at
all.
> All you've thought about is your daughter, teaching your daughter a
lesson,
> supporting your daughter, yourself, your partner, what you want, what you
love,
> how you feel.

Help your daughter to learn a lesson in responsibility. This lesson will
most likely be quite different from what seems to be going on lately, but
maybe a change in lesson plans is needed because what has been going on
already doesn't seem to be working. I'm not going to go about telling you
what to do or what not to do.

> Step back from all that and think of what is best for that baby.

Again, and often as always, I have to agree with Joelle. I don't think such
instability is good for any child at any age. Having a completely
neglectful mother isn't a good thing ever, and all this stress on you does
not really help anything at all. You're going to burn yourself out even
faster and then you'll be hurting yourself and your loved ones even more if
that happens.

> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>From: "Paul Fritz"
>Date: 4/18/2004 9:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
> "Purchgdss" > wrote in message
...
> > You don't mention how old the baby is......
> >
> > My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for adoption.
>Your
> > daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality is
>too much
> > for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating
>between
> > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the
>father or
> > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't willing
>to do
> > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
> >
> >
> >
> > Just my 2 cents.........
> > Christine
>
>
> It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father involved he
>would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the mother
>than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
>that may be the best scenario for the child
>
>

Paul, why is it you assume we all don't know this? Why do you constantly feel
the father is getting the shaft ? He is here all the time eats for free ,
showers on occasion, gets free child care for his daughter .This CS thing is a
real ball buster for you isn't it ? Fact is in this case there is no CS being
paid by anybody so relax o.k.! The children are supplying thier baby with
direct needs and the MATERNAL grandmommies are supporting the home okie dokie
:)

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>From: "Tiffany"
>Date: 4/18/2004 11:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Purchgdss" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > You don't mention how old the baby is......
>> >
>> > My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for
>adoption.
>> Your
>> > daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality is
>> too much
>> > for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be floating
>> between
>> > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the
>> father or
>> > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't
>willing
>> to do
>> > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Just my 2 cents.........
>> > Christine
>>
>>
>> It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father involved he
>> would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the
>mother
>> than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
>> that may be the best scenario for the child
>>
>>
>>
>
>Well, lets hope that no decision that major would be made with out
>consulting the father. As young as he is, he seems to be taking way more
>responsibility then the mother. I just think if an adoption would have taken
>place, it would have been far easier at birth. But you are correct, it seems
>better for the baby to be with paternal grandparents, if they are able.
>
>T
>
>
>
Ya know T get outta Pauls ass O.K. its showing. Seems you don't even know me
and assume My ability to take care of my granddaughter is any less than the
PATERNAL grandparents who I might add have done nothing so far to help these
kids. You don't even know them and think this baby would be better off with
them please stop making an ass outta yourself.
Repeat after me "I do not need a man to be someone"

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: "Paul Fritz"
> >Date: 4/18/2004 9:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> > "Purchgdss" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > You don't mention how old the baby is......
> > >
> > > My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for
adoption.
> >Your
> > > daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality
is
> >too much
> > > for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be
floating
> >between
> > > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the
> >father or
> > > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't
willing
> >to do
> > > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Just my 2 cents.........
> > > Christine
> >
> >
> > It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father involved
he
> >would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the
mother
> >than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s)
involved,
> >that may be the best scenario for the child
> >
> >
>
> Paul, why is it you assume we all don't know this? Why do you constantly
feel
> the father is getting the shaft ? He is here all the time eats for free
,
> showers on occasion, gets free child care for his daughter .This CS
thing is a
> real ball buster for you isn't it ? Fact is in this case there is no CS
being
> paid by anybody so relax o.k.! The children are supplying thier baby
with
> direct needs and the MATERNAL grandmommies are supporting the home okie
dokie
> :)
>

How clueless. You are the one ASSuming. Nowhere did I say the father was
getting the shaft......that was you ASSuming. Nowhere did I say any CS was
being paid...........once again you ASSume. The simple fact of the matter
is that it will NOT be the child's mother's sole decision to adopt out the
child as Christine suggested. The father could easily file for custody and
collect child support from the mother......and there is not a DAMN THING YOU
CAN DO ABOUT IT. Seems to me that it is not the kids mother that needs to
grow up and stop being such a self centered bitch.

>
>
>
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: "Tiffany"
> >Date: 4/18/2004 11:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Purchgdss" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > You don't mention how old the baby is......
> >> >
> >> > My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for
> >adoption.
> >> Your
> >> > daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the
reality is
> >> too much
> >> > for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be
floating
> >> between
> >> > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or
the
> >> father or
> >> > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't
> >willing
> >> to do
> >> > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Just my 2 cents.........
> >> > Christine
> >>
> >>
> >> It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father
involved he
> >> would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the
> >mother
> >> than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s)
involved,
> >> that may be the best scenario for the child
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Well, lets hope that no decision that major would be made with out
> >consulting the father. As young as he is, he seems to be taking way
more
> >responsibility then the mother. I just think if an adoption would have
taken
> >place, it would have been far easier at birth. But you are correct, it
seems
> >better for the baby to be with paternal grandparents, if they are able.
> >
> >T
> >
> >
> >
> Ya know T get outta Pauls ass O.K. its showing. Seems you don't even
know me
> and assume My ability to take care of my granddaughter is any less than
the
> PATERNAL grandparents who I might add have done nothing so far to help
these
> kids. You don't even know them and think this baby would be better off
with
> them please stop making an ass outta yourself.
> Repeat after me "I do not need a man to be someone"

Hey self centered bitch........IT WON"T BE YOUR DECISION. Time for you to
grow up and stop whining. You are the one making an ass out of yourself
with your constant whine and selfish self centered attitude. You can whine
all you want about you caretaking ability.....i.e the damage you are causing
to both your daughter and grandchild.....but it will not change the fact
that it will NOT BE your decision as to what happens....what a maroon.

>

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>From: (Joelle)
>Date: 4/18/2004 1:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> With the father involved he
>>would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the mother
>>than responsible for paying CS.
>
>I have a feeling though, if the option is only HIM taking care of the baby,
>he
>may find adoption a bit more attractive.

Well I would have to wonder myself if the daddy had as much responsibility as
the mommy if he may not after 4 months be snapping out like my daughter as
well. Sometimes people forget that the teenage dad isn't the one living within
the baby zone and dealing with the baby as the teenage mom has been. Come on we
are adults raising kids and look where we are at sometimes dealing with it ?
Who smokes pot, who drinks , who is doing other drugs as well and think they
are being wonderful parents? Your comment about adoption looking attractive to
him if he were the care giver ?? Whats that Joelle? Using a wonderful program
such as adoption as an escape from being responsible to your children ? I
wonder ? Why because I say adoption at this point for my granddaughter would
teach my daughter to throw away her responsibility is insulting then ? I never
downed adoption and have said in previous arguments that I believe for the
right reasons for the right people it is good . I state my personal choice and
I am ignorant ( I'll get to that person ) Adoption is not for me that is all I
am saying . I never meant to insult anyone. I myself would adopt. I would not
give up my child , or my grandchild when there is no good reason to. Yes I
will teach my children my moral values and choices, they will make thier own
choices. My daughter and her B/F were told you decide to give up this baby I
want you to seriously consider me to adopt and care for her first. I truelly
believe that there are times people give up thier children simply because they
are selfish.That is not ignorance that is reality.
Thats it, my honesty. My opinion that I am entitled to as any one else is
thiers.

>>With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
>>that may be the best scenario for the child
>
>
>I thought the first problem presented was that parental grandparents were NOT
>interested in the baby.

that is correct......not interested in the responsibility of raising the baby
..
Bev

>Joelle
>The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
>Augustine
>Joelle
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>From: (Joelle)
>Date: 4/18/2004 1:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That she
>>can
>>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in
>
>do you realize how many people you have just insulted with that understanding
>of adoption. Giving the baby up for adoption is the most unselfish,
>responsible, loving thing your daughter and her boyfriend can do for that
>baby.

I am sorry you misunderstood what I am saying here Joelle, Yes adoption is an
unselfish choice for some . I made a commitment a promise to my daughter and
her boyfriend to help them if they chose to have this baby and they chose to. I
have kept my word and I expect them to as well 4 months later is not the time
to decide to abandon this responsibility. If they do I will climb mountains of
burning trees to adopt this child myself she is my blood and at that point I
will raise her.


> You don't make her take care of her baby to punish her or teach her a
>lesson.
>She's a child. She's not capable of raising a child. Admitting that and
>letting an adult give that child a future is not a bad thing.

I am not punishing her , I am expecting her to stand up to her responsibility
there is a difference. If she can not be the parent and her boyfriend can not
be the parent I can care for this baby and that is what I am saying NO Adopting
out my flesh and blood granddaughter . Now I am intitled to what i morally
believe.

>>.We
>>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
>>granddaughter
>
>It's not too late. Stop thinking of yourself and how much you will miss the
>baby. Look at what a mess that baby is in. You cannot take care of that
>baby
>yourself, because your daughter, her mother and her messed up life is always
>going to be interfering and screwing with the child.

Whose messed up life are you refering to ?
How do you know I can not give this baby a healthy loving home? I admit to
issues in my home because I am honest and that makes my ability as a parent
**** Joelle? I got a boulder for your glass house, how does that sound ? There
are no perfect homes , no perfect people , and I sure know you have made
mistakes in your own life and you are certainly far from perfect .
Jaime is a very happy baby and she has more love surrounding her than many
children who end up in foster care or adoption..........who are starved ,
beaten sexually assualted and murdered there in those scenarios as well in
those homes as well preacher.

>I don't sense that you have thought about this in terms of the baby at all.
>All you've thought about is your daughter, teaching your daughter a lesson,
>supporting your daughter, yourself, your partner, what you want, what you
>love,
>how you feel.
>
>Step back from all that and think of what is best for that baby.

Yep that is exactly everything I have thought of and *we* are whats best for
Jaime, her family her not so perfect family.
Bev
>Joelle
>The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
>Augustine
>Joelle
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: (Joelle)
> >Date: 4/18/2004 1:52 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >> With the father involved he
> >>would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the
mother
> >>than responsible for paying CS.
> >
> >I have a feeling though, if the option is only HIM taking care of the
baby,
> >he
> >may find adoption a bit more attractive.
>
> Well I would have to wonder myself if the daddy had as much
responsibility as
> the mommy if he may not after 4 months be snapping out like my daughter
as
> well. Sometimes people forget that the teenage dad isn't the one living
within
> the baby zone and dealing with the baby as the teenage mom has been.
Come on we
> are adults raising kids and look where we are at sometimes dealing with
it ?
> Who smokes pot, who drinks , who is doing other drugs as well and think
they
> are being wonderful parents? Your comment about adoption looking
attractive to
> him if he were the care giver ?? Whats that Joelle? Using a wonderful
program
> such as adoption as an escape from being responsible to your children ?
I
> wonder ? Why because I say adoption at this point for my granddaughter
would
> teach my daughter to throw away her responsibility is insulting then ? I
never
> downed adoption and have said in previous arguments that I believe for
the
> right reasons for the right people it is good . I state my personal
choice and
> I am ignorant ( I'll get to that person ) Adoption is not for me that is
all I
> am saying . I never meant to insult anyone. I myself would adopt. I
would not
> give up my child , or my grandchild when there is no good reason to.
Yes I
> will teach my children my moral values and choices, they will make thier
own
> choices. My daughter and her B/F were told you decide to give up this
baby I
> want you to seriously consider me to adopt and care for her first. I
truelly
> believe that there are times people give up thier children simply
because they
> are selfish.That is not ignorance that is reality.
> Thats it, my honesty. My opinion that I am entitled to as any one else
is
> thiers.


You mean your selfish self centered opinion...........and as usual dead
wrong.


>
> >>With the paternal grandparent(s) involved,
> >>that may be the best scenario for the child
> >
> >
> >I thought the first problem presented was that parental grandparents
were NOT
> >interested in the baby.
>
> that is correct......not interested in the responsibility of raising
the baby
> .
> Bev
>
> >Joelle
> >The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> >Augustine
> >Joelle
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: (Joelle)
> >Date: 4/18/2004 1:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child?
That she
> >>can
> >>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in
> >
> >do you realize how many people you have just insulted with that
understanding
> >of adoption. Giving the baby up for adoption is the most unselfish,
> >responsible, loving thing your daughter and her boyfriend can do for
that
> >baby.
>
> I am sorry you misunderstood what I am saying here Joelle, Yes adoption
is an
> unselfish choice for some . I made a commitment a promise to my daughter
and
> her boyfriend to help them if they chose to have this baby and they
chose to. I
> have kept my word and I expect them to as well 4 months later is not the
time
> to decide to abandon this responsibility. If they do I will climb
mountains of
> burning trees to adopt this child myself she is my blood and at that
point I
> will raise her.

Once again.....it is all about 'you' not what is best for the child.
GROW UP

>
>
> > You don't make her take care of her baby to punish her or teach her a
> >lesson.
> >She's a child. She's not capable of raising a child. Admitting that
and
> >letting an adult give that child a future is not a bad thing.
>
> I am not punishing her , I am expecting her to stand up to her
responsibility
> there is a difference. If she can not be the parent and her boyfriend
can not
> be the parent I can care for this baby and that is what I am saying NO
Adopting
> out my flesh and blood granddaughter . Now I am intitled to what i
morally
> believe.

What you 'believe' is selfish and self centered.

>
> >>.We
> >>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
> >>granddaughter
> >
> >It's not too late. Stop thinking of yourself and how much you will
miss the
> >baby. Look at what a mess that baby is in. You cannot take care of
that
> >baby
> >yourself, because your daughter, her mother and her messed up life is
always
> >going to be interfering and screwing with the child.
>
> Whose messed up life are you refering to ?
> How do you know I can not give this baby a healthy loving home? I admit
to
> issues in my home because I am honest and that makes my ability as a
parent
> **** Joelle? I got a boulder for your glass house, how does that sound ?
There
> are no perfect homes , no perfect people , and I sure know you have made
> mistakes in your own life and you are certainly far from perfect .
> Jaime is a very happy baby and she has more love surrounding her than
many
> children who end up in foster care or adoption..........who are starved
,
> beaten sexually assualted and murdered there in those scenarios as well
in
> those homes as well preacher.
>
> >I don't sense that you have thought about this in terms of the baby at
all.
> >All you've thought about is your daughter, teaching your daughter a
lesson,
> >supporting your daughter, yourself, your partner, what you want, what
you
> >love,
> >how you feel.
> >
> >Step back from all that and think of what is best for that baby.
>
> Yep that is exactly everything I have thought of and *we* are whats best
for
> Jaime, her family her not so perfect family.
> Bev
> >Joelle
> >The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> >Augustine
> >Joelle
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>From: "xkatx" .
>Date: 4/20/2004 12:33 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <bhchc.188373$Ig.33895@pd7tw2no>
>
<snip>
>Joelle, it's called ignorance, and if someone has very little information
>and facts about something, they are ignorant. It's not always a bad thing,
>really, because I don't believe that ignorance is always intentional. I'll
>also agree with what you said and I think you said it well enough that I
>don't need to add anything.

I am not ignorant, I am entitled to believe my blood doesn't get adopted, we
take care of our own.My belief my choice I never said adoption was not a good
thing for others if they so choose. I also think some people choose iot cause
they are selfish. My opinion and I am entitled to it as you are yours but I am
not ignorant honey.

>Again, and often as always, I have to agree with Joelle. I don't think such
>instability is good for any child at any age. Having a completely
>neglectful mother isn't a good thing ever, and all this stress on you does
>not really help anything at all. You're going to burn yourself out even
>faster and then you'll be hurting yourself and your loved ones even more if
>that happens.

If somewhere I gave the immpression my daughter is being completely neglectful
then I am sorry . My daughter has been pulling away and getting out of the care
of the baby as often as possible even sleeping much more than normal. She had
the depo shot 3 months ago for birth control and has been bleeding for 3 months
and they say this is normal for some to do this for up to a year. Maybe she is
almost dead. **** has happened and **** will be dealt with if anyone thinks for
one moment so little of me as a person that I would allow any harm to come to
the baby you just don't know me . That is not me o.k. oh and did I say I am not
ignorant.


>> Joelle
>> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
>> Augustine
>> Joelle
>
>--
>A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
>Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
>A: Top-posting.
>Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
>From: ">'Kate <>
>Date: 4/18/2004 2:08 PM Eastern Standard Time
<snip>
>>
>>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That she
>can
>>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in ? You may be
>>right, but I am holding this kid to her choices, I never turned my back on
>her
>>and she will learn to stand up to her own responsibility. Wake up baby !
>this
>>was your decision, reality has a name... Jaime-Gayle........
>


>That's not the issue. The issue is that the mother has already made the
>decision that the child is unimportant. You can't change that... she's
>overwhelmed and she's reaching out in harmful ways. You're going to have
>to make her understand that giving the baby up, whether it is
>temporarily or permanently, is the only good choice.
>

I don't know Kate I read you and I don't........since when is it so wonderful
to quit so easy . To give up on *family" first sign of trouble? I am confused
cause so many people keep saying what is best is to give up the baby? It is not
best to immediately pack up baby and be gone with her at the first sign of a
glitch in the going. The going has been tougher in the past and giving up on
keeping this family together seems unfair . They are children yes but there is
a baby involved that by chance these kids could be great parents to and if I
and Mari are willing to help them through the ups and downs and climbing outta
the barrel bottom struggles that even adult parents have to do sometimes then
why is it so wrong ? Why can't this baby be o.k. right where she is. She is
loved beyond the deepest ocean. When I was struggling with Gayles death and
began drinking and closing down there were many people involved in our family
people that could have decided Sara should be removed and ya know what that
never happened and These people understood it was a fixable condition I had.
Well I think this is as well a fixable condition Sara is going through and to
jump to removing this baby from our lives just makes no sense to me. Where is
anyone that understands the dynamics of the fact that families struggle and
kids survive? We were all babies once how much of your first few years do you
remember?I don't think the answer is removing the baby.


>>I know you mean well by suggesting adoption.......I know it is
>there........We
>>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
>granddaughter
>>and if my daughter can not do this I can and I will. I thought about this as
>>well "what if" and talked it over with my partner...we discussed abortion,
>>adoption ,and the end result was to take care of my daughters child should
>my
>>daughter not be able to at this time. My daughter and her boyfriend were
>the
>>main part of this decision, they were determined to have this baby and I
>>certainly did not want them to run away feeling unsupported. She got
>pregnant
>>for all the wrong reasons I am sure , she was replacing an emptiness , and
>she
>>is struggling but there are many reasons for the struggle, I don't think she
>>does not want the baby, I need to get her back into counsiling and have the
>>"why" looked at.Yes I am willing to care for my granddaughter, Untill my
>>daughter is ready or not .

>Ok.. but y our first responsibility is to YOUR daughter and you can't do
>that while taking care of your granddaughter. It will be putting one
>person's needs before the other's and the baby will come first. That's
>not in the best interest of your daughter. You don't have a choice but
>to take care of your daughter first.. she needs you more than the baby
>needs you.

Now Now Kate , What have mothers of multiple children done all these years? Yes
my daughter has issues to be taken care of first and foremost, but how will my
(having help ) caring for my granddaughter as well not work? As any household
with multiple children to care for at the same time , I mean hello <knocking on
the door to your inteligence> <joking>I know you raised more than one at a
time?
Bev

>'Kate
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Joelle]

>Whats that Joelle? Using a wonderful program
>such as adoption as an escape from being responsible to your children ? I

Okay fine. Use your grandchild to teach your daughter a lesson. That's right.
I'm done with you.

Just one word of advice. When you want to teach your grandaughter about
responsibity...I suggest a puppy.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[P.Fritz]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >Whats that Joelle? Using a wonderful program
> >such as adoption as an escape from being responsible to your children ? I
>
> Okay fine. Use your grandchild to teach your daughter a lesson. That's
right.
> I'm done with you.
>
> Just one word of advice. When you want to teach your grandaughter about
> responsibity...I suggest a puppy.

I have a hunch that it is not only her grandchild that she 'uses'

>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle

[Tiffany]

"Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: "Tiffany"
> >Date: 4/18/2004 11:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Purchgdss" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > You don't mention how old the baby is......
> >> >
> >> > My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for
> >adoption.
> >> Your
> >> > daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the reality
is
> >> too much
> >> > for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be
floating
> >> between
> >> > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or the
> >> father or
> >> > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't
> >willing
> >> to do
> >> > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Just my 2 cents.........
> >> > Christine
> >>
> >>
> >> It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father involved
he
> >> would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the
> >mother
> >> than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s)
involved,
> >> that may be the best scenario for the child
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Well, lets hope that no decision that major would be made with out
> >consulting the father. As young as he is, he seems to be taking way more
> >responsibility then the mother. I just think if an adoption would have
taken
> >place, it would have been far easier at birth. But you are correct, it
seems
> >better for the baby to be with paternal grandparents, if they are able.
> >
> >T
> >
> >
> >
> Ya know T get outta Pauls ass O.K. its showing. Seems you don't even know
me
> and assume My ability to take care of my granddaughter is any less than
the
> PATERNAL grandparents who I might add have done nothing so far to help
these
> kids. You don't even know them and think this baby would be better off
with
> them please stop making an ass outta yourself.
> Repeat after me "I do not need a man to be someone"
>

I don't need a women either Bev. Did you miss the part about consulting the
father of the baby? Ignoring that part eh? I don't know if the paternal
grandparents are better or not but I can see from all your posts that your
WHOLE family needs help. I personally stick to my original posts, if you
recall them.

Throwing insults and telling me I don't need a man is just childish. Yep...
childish.

T

[P.Fritz]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> > >From: "Tiffany"
> > >Date: 4/18/2004 11:32 AM Eastern Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >
> > >"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >> "Purchgdss" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> > You don't mention how old the baby is......
> > >> >
> > >> > My best suggestion, If the baby is less than 2, put her up for
> > >adoption.
> > >> Your
> > >> > daughter has shown that the fantasy has disappated and the
reality
> is
> > >> too much
> > >> > for her. If she were to go to JD (Jail) the child would be
> floating
> > >> between
> > >> > caregivers the whole time. THE CHILD NEEDS Stability. you or
the
> > >> father or
> > >> > HIS MOM will wind up taking on the parenting.... If you aren't
> > >willing
> > >> to do
> > >> > that, then the child needs to go to someone who is....
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Just my 2 cents.........
> > >> > Christine
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> It is not her or the mother's sole choice. With the father
involved
> he
> > >> would have to agree as well, or could sue for full custody, with the
> > >mother
> > >> than responsible for paying CS. With the paternal grandparent(s)
> involved,
> > >> that may be the best scenario for the child
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >Well, lets hope that no decision that major would be made with out
> > >consulting the father. As young as he is, he seems to be taking way
more
> > >responsibility then the mother. I just think if an adoption would have
> taken
> > >place, it would have been far easier at birth. But you are correct, it
> seems
> > >better for the baby to be with paternal grandparents, if they are able.
> > >
> > >T
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Ya know T get outta Pauls ass O.K. its showing. Seems you don't even
know
> me
> > and assume My ability to take care of my granddaughter is any less than
> the
> > PATERNAL grandparents who I might add have done nothing so far to help
> these
> > kids. You don't even know them and think this baby would be better off
> with
> > them please stop making an ass outta yourself.
> > Repeat after me "I do not need a man to be someone"
> >
>
> I don't need a women either Bev. Did you miss the part about consulting
the
> father of the baby? Ignoring that part eh? I don't know if the paternal
> grandparents are better or not but I can see from all your posts that your
> WHOLE family needs help. I personally stick to my original posts, if you
> recall them.
>
> Throwing insults and telling me I don't need a man is just childish.
Yep...
> childish.
>
> T

Dysfuntional breeds dysfunctional breeds dysfunctional


>
>
>

[P.Fritz]

"Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: ">'Kate <>
> >Date: 4/18/2004 2:08 PM Eastern Standard Time
> <snip>
> >>
> >>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That
she
> >can
> >>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in ? You may
be
> >>right, but I am holding this kid to her choices, I never turned my back
on
> >her
> >>and she will learn to stand up to her own responsibility. Wake up baby !
> >this
> >>was your decision, reality has a name... Jaime-Gayle........
> >
>
>
> >That's not the issue. The issue is that the mother has already made the
> >decision that the child is unimportant. You can't change that... she's
> >overwhelmed and she's reaching out in harmful ways. You're going to have
> >to make her understand that giving the baby up, whether it is
> >temporarily or permanently, is the only good choice.
> >
>
> I don't know Kate I read you and I don't........since when is it so
wonderful
> to quit so easy . To give up on *family" first sign of trouble? I am
confused
> cause so many people keep saying what is best is to give up the baby?

Best for the BABY....................NOT YOU

>It is not
> best to immediately pack up baby and be gone with her at the first sign of
a
> glitch in the going. The going has been tougher in the past and giving up
on
> keeping this family together seems unfair . They are children yes but
there is
> a baby involved that by chance these kids could be great parents to and if
I
> and Mari are willing to help them through the ups and downs and climbing
outta
> the barrel bottom struggles that even adult parents have to do sometimes
then
> why is it so wrong ? Why can't this baby be o.k. right where she is.

Dysfuntional breeding dysfunctional, breeding dyfunctional.....got a clue
yet.

>She is
> loved beyond the deepest ocean. When I was struggling with Gayles death
and
> began drinking and closing down

Nice to see you put your kids ahead of yourself........NOT........just more
proof how selfish you are.

> there were many people involved in our family
> people that could have decided Sara should be removed and ya know what
that
> never happened and These people understood it was a fixable condition I
had.
> Well I think this is as well a fixable condition Sara is going through and
to
> jump to removing this baby from our lives just makes no sense to me. Where
is
> anyone that understands the dynamics of the fact that families struggle
and
> kids survive? We were all babies once how much of your first few years do
you
> remember?

Dysfuntional breeding dysfunctional, breeding dyfunctional.....got a clue
yet..

Kids survive to repeat the same dismal pattern you set for them.

>I don't think the answer is removing the baby.

just more proof how selfish you are

>
>
> >>I know you mean well by suggesting adoption.......I know it is
> >there........We
> >>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
> >granddaughter
> >>and if my daughter can not do this I can and I will. I thought about
this as
> >>well "what if" and talked it over with my partner...we discussed
abortion,
> >>adoption ,and the end result was to take care of my daughters child
should
> >my
> >>daughter not be able to at this time. My daughter and her boyfriend
were
> >the
> >>main part of this decision, they were determined to have this baby and I
> >>certainly did not want them to run away feeling unsupported. She got
> >pregnant
> >>for all the wrong reasons I am sure , she was replacing an emptiness ,
and
> >she
> >>is struggling but there are many reasons for the struggle, I don't think
she
> >>does not want the baby, I need to get her back into counsiling and have
the
> >>"why" looked at.Yes I am willing to care for my granddaughter, Untill my
> >>daughter is ready or not .
>
> >Ok.. but y our first responsibility is to YOUR daughter and you can't do
> >that while taking care of your granddaughter. It will be putting one
> >person's needs before the other's and the baby will come first. That's
> >not in the best interest of your daughter. You don't have a choice but
> >to take care of your daughter first.. she needs you more than the baby
> >needs you.
>
> Now Now Kate , What have mothers of multiple children done all these
years? Yes
> my daughter has issues to be taken care of first and foremost,

but you put yourself first anyway.

>but how will my
> (having help ) caring for my granddaughter as well not work?

because you put yourself first just like the selfish person you are.

> As any household
> with multiple children to care for at the same time , I mean hello
<knocking on
> the door to your inteligence> <joking>I know you raised more than one at a
> time?

You screwed up your own kids lifes, now you want to screw up the grand kids
as well.....how selfish

> Bev
>
> >'Kate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[xkatx]

"Bebelestrnge0721" wrote in message ...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: "xkatx"
> >Date: 4/20/2004 12:33 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: > >
> <snip>
> >Joelle, it's called ignorance, and if someone has very little information
> >and facts about something, they are ignorant. It's not always a bad
thing,
> >really, because I don't believe that ignorance is always intentional.
I'll
> >also agree with what you said and I think you said it well enough that I
> >don't need to add anything.
>
> I am not ignorant, I am entitled to believe my blood doesn't get adopted,
we
> take care of our own.My belief my choice I never said adoption was not a
good
> thing for others if they so choose. I also think some people choose iot
cause
> they are selfish. My opinion and I am entitled to it as you are yours but
I am
> not ignorant honey.

It doesn't really matter. Your attitude and choice of words has shown
little but ignorance, and I'm not sure if you know the meaning of ignorance.
If you really believe that some people choose adoption as a way to go
because they are selfish, that is just one more ignorant line you've come up
with.

> >Again, and often as always, I have to agree with Joelle. I don't think
such
> >instability is good for any child at any age. Having a completely
> >neglectful mother isn't a good thing ever, and all this stress on you
does
> >not really help anything at all. You're going to burn yourself out even
> >faster and then you'll be hurting yourself and your loved ones even more
if
> >that happens.
>
> If somewhere I gave the immpression my daughter is being completely
neglectful
> then I am sorry . My daughter has been pulling away and getting out of the
care
> of the baby as often as possible even sleeping much more than normal. She
had
> the depo shot 3 months ago for birth control and has been bleeding for 3
months
> and they say this is normal for some to do this for up to a year. Maybe
she is
> almost dead. **** has happened and **** will be dealt with if anyone
thinks for
> one moment so little of me as a person that I would allow any harm to come
to
> the baby you just don't know me . That is not me o.k. oh and did I say I
am not
> ignorant.

Again, you've just pointed out that your daughter has been neglectful when
you said, "My daughter has been pulling away and getting out of the care of
the baby as often as possible even sleeping much more than normal". You are
Grandma, she is Mom. She is the one who decided to have sex, have a baby
and now it's long past her due date to grow up and realize that she is now
responsible for a baby. You are not this infant's mother, and by your
daughter pulling away and getting out of the care of the baby as often as
possible, you've expressed that you've basically been the one who feeds the
baby and all that comes with being a parent. You have a beautiful
granddaughter that, I'm sure, needs and loves you very much, but not seeing
that your daughter, the baby's mother, is being neglectful shows more
ignorance.
Being neglectful does not always mean ignoring a baby. You can neglect your
child in so many ways, including pulling away from it or avoiding your
parental responsibilities. If you sleep all day, or even more than normal,
and let your parental responsibilities slide onto the lap of the next
person, that is neglectful on the part of the parent.
I'm not trying to be mean or start some type of fight or anger, but really,
your little girl, still just a child herself, had made the choice to play
grown-ups and now that little game has become a cold and hard reality that
needs some serious thought and consideration put into it. Put your own
thoughts and feelings aside for just a moment, if possible.

>
> >> Joelle
> >> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> >> Augustine
> >> Joelle
> >
> >--
> >A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
> >Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> >A: Top-posting.
> >Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[xkatx]

"Bebelestrnge0721" wrote in message ...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: (Joelle)
> >Date: 4/18/2004 1:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id:
> >
> >>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That
she
> >>can
> >>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in
> >
> >do you realize how many people you have just insulted with that
understanding
> >of adoption. Giving the baby up for adoption is the most unselfish,
> >responsible, loving thing your daughter and her boyfriend can do for that
> >baby.
>
> I am sorry you misunderstood what I am saying here Joelle, Yes adoption is
an
> unselfish choice for some . I made a commitment a promise to my daughter
and
> her boyfriend to help them if they chose to have this baby and they chose
to. I
> have kept my word and I expect them to as well 4 months later is not the
time
> to decide to abandon this responsibility. If they do I will climb
mountains of
> burning trees to adopt this child myself she is my blood and at that point
I
> will raise her.

Adoption is the most unselfish thing for ALL who have gone through that
experience. Adoption is NOT about abandoning responsibility. It's TAKING
ON the responsibility to provide a loving and STABLE home for another human
being when that isn't available otherwise.
For arguments sake, if the above were to happen and you then you became the
legal guardian of Jaime, what happens if and when your daughter finally
smartens up, after your granddaughter is being raised by you? Would you be
then willing to hand her over to your daughter to take on her original
parental responsibilities or will it cause even more problems? Will this be
one year from now? Ten years from now? Who knows?

> > You don't make her take care of her baby to punish her or teach her a
> >lesson.
> >She's a child. She's not capable of raising a child. Admitting that and
> >letting an adult give that child a future is not a bad thing.
>
> I am not punishing her , I am expecting her to stand up to her
responsibility
> there is a difference. If she can not be the parent and her boyfriend can
not
> be the parent I can care for this baby and that is what I am saying NO
Adopting
> out my flesh and blood granddaughter . Now I am intitled to what i morally
> believe.

As you are definitely welcome to your own beliefs, so am I. Pure ignorance.

> >>.We
> >>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
> >>granddaughter
> >
> >It's not too late. Stop thinking of yourself and how much you will miss
the
> >baby. Look at what a mess that baby is in. You cannot take care of that
> >baby
> >yourself, because your daughter, her mother and her messed up life is
always
> >going to be interfering and screwing with the child.
>
> Whose messed up life are you refering to ?
> How do you know I can not give this baby a healthy loving home? I admit to
> issues in my home because I am honest and that makes my ability as a
parent
> **** Joelle? I got a boulder for your glass house, how does that sound ?
There
> are no perfect homes , no perfect people , and I sure know you have made
> mistakes in your own life and you are certainly far from perfect .
> Jaime is a very happy baby and she has more love surrounding her than many
> children who end up in foster care or adoption..........who are starved ,
> beaten sexually assualted and murdered there in those scenarios as well in
> those homes as well preacher.

Maybe you can give this baby a healthy and loving home. EVERY household and
family has their issues, and you're right - NO family is perfect in every
way. If you really do want a healthy and loving home that provides for this
child, then why wait? Why pass this infant around from home to home to
home? I really wouldn't want to grow up wondering where my home really is.
I wouldn't want to grow up wondering how long it will be before Home #2 gets
tired of me and ships me off to Home #1. Then when I wear out my welcome in
Home #1, I wouldn't want to wonder if Home #3 will take me or if I'll have
to go back to Home #2. This baby deserves more than what it seems she's
getting. She deserves a loving, safe, stable, welcome, warm and familiar
ground to grow in.
How happy will Jaime be when she's old enough to wonder why her Mama has
been distancing herself from her? I just don't believe that to be fair, and
I'm sure you have your own beliefs as well.
Here, there is no way that an adoptive family would even be considered a
spot on the waiting lists if they were so dysfunctional and sick that they
would be starving or beating children. No idea where you are from, but out
here families nearly go through hell and back to be able to have a child to
love and raise and care for. Babies aren't just handed out like candies in
a dish at the restaurant you ate at last week. Same goes with foster
families. If you really look into it, you'll find out amazing things about
it all, and really, I'm sure, a lot of things would surprise you. There are
less children abused in the foster system and in families brought together
by adoption than there are in your "natural" family households.

> >I don't sense that you have thought about this in terms of the baby at
all.
> >All you've thought about is your daughter, teaching your daughter a
lesson,
> >supporting your daughter, yourself, your partner, what you want, what you
> >love,
> >how you feel.
> >
> >Step back from all that and think of what is best for that baby.
>
> Yep that is exactly everything I have thought of and *we* are whats best
for
> Jaime, her family her not so perfect family.
> Bev

Again, your family is NOT perfect, nor is mine, or anyone else around here,
for that matter. We ALL have our faults, we ALL have our issues, problems
and dirty laundry. It really does take more than just your own flesh and
blood to make a family.

> >Joelle
> >The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> >Augustine
> >Joelle

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?

[xkatx]

"Bebelestrnge0721" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: calm before the storm?
> >From: ">'Kate <>
> >Date: 4/18/2004 2:08 PM Eastern Standard Time
> <snip>
> >>
> >>but do I want to teach her it is o.k. to do this to her own child? That
she
> >can
> >>throw away a child like a toy that she has lost interest in ? You may
be
> >>right, but I am holding this kid to her choices, I never turned my back
on
> >her
> >>and she will learn to stand up to her own responsibility. Wake up baby !
> >this
> >>was your decision, reality has a name... Jaime-Gayle........
> >
>
>
> >That's not the issue. The issue is that the mother has already made the
> >decision that the child is unimportant. You can't change that... she's
> >overwhelmed and she's reaching out in harmful ways. You're going to have
> >to make her understand that giving the baby up, whether it is
> >temporarily or permanently, is the only good choice.
> >
>
> I don't know Kate I read you and I don't........since when is it so
wonderful
> to quit so easy . To give up on *family" first sign of trouble? I am
confused
> cause so many people keep saying what is best is to give up the baby? It
is not
> best to immediately pack up baby and be gone with her at the first sign of
a
> glitch in the going.

Two words: Open Adoption.

> The going has been tougher in the past and giving up on
> keeping this family together seems unfair . They are children yes but
there is
> a baby involved that by chance these kids could be great parents to and if
I
> and Mari are willing to help them through the ups and downs and climbing
outta
> the barrel bottom struggles that even adult parents have to do sometimes
then
> why is it so wrong ?

These 'children' are no longer children because of their own decisions and
choices and actions. Really, their childhood is now gone for good, and it's
something they probably won't ever get back, and if they do, it will be when
that baby comes of age. They are, physically, children, but children in
that way only. They now need to be big people, grown ups, but that doesn't
really seem to be happening.

> Why can't this baby be o.k. right where she is. She is
> loved beyond the deepest ocean. When I was struggling with Gayles death
and
> began drinking and closing down there were many people involved in our
family
> people that could have decided Sara should be removed and ya know what
that
> never happened and These people understood it was a fixable condition I
had.
> Well I think this is as well a fixable condition Sara is going through and
to
> jump to removing this baby from our lives just makes no sense to me. Where
is
> anyone that understands the dynamics of the fact that families struggle
and
> kids survive? We were all babies once how much of your first few years do
you
> remember?I don't think the answer is removing the baby.

I don't see how what a person actually remembers in their first couple years
of life is relevant. I have memories of the day my brother was born, and I
was a month shy of my third birthday, yet I can remember, clearly, getting
into the elevator at the hospital thinking my dad was right behind me to
turn around and find out he wasn't and that I was on my way down the
elevator alone. I remember exactly how I felt then, and that's something
that no one really could have put into my head to remember. In a couple
years, this baby will be making memories of her own and will things be any
different in a couple years? Maybe it is the right time to put your
intentions into motion before it really is too late.

>
>
> >>I know you mean well by suggesting adoption.......I know it is
> >there........We
> >>considered it.......it is too late now , I am hooked, I love my
> >granddaughter
> >>and if my daughter can not do this I can and I will. I thought about
this as
> >>well "what if" and talked it over with my partner...we discussed
abortion,
> >>adoption ,and the end result was to take care of my daughters child
should
> >my
> >>daughter not be able to at this time. My daughter and her boyfriend
were
> >the
> >>main part of this decision, they were determined to have this baby and I
> >>certainly did not want them to run away feeling unsupported. She got
> >pregnant
> >>for all the wrong reasons I am sure , she was replacing an emptiness ,
and
> >she
> >>is struggling but there are many reasons for the struggle, I don't think
she
> >>does not want the baby, I need to get her back into counsiling and have
the
> >>"why" looked at.Yes I am willing to care for my granddaughter, Untill my
> >>daughter is ready or not .
>
> >Ok.. but y our first responsibility is to YOUR daughter and you can't do
> >that while taking care of your granddaughter. It will be putting one
> >person's needs before the other's and the baby will come first. That's
> >not in the best interest of your daughter. You don't have a choice but
> >to take care of your daughter first.. she needs you more than the baby
> >needs you.
>
> Now Now Kate , What have mothers of multiple children done all these
years? Yes
> my daughter has issues to be taken care of first and foremost, but how
will my
> (having help ) caring for my granddaughter as well not work? As any
household
> with multiple children to care for at the same time , I mean hello
<knocking on
> the door to your inteligence> <joking>I know you raised more than one at a
> time?
> Bev

Ugh. This is just too much for one night. I'm not going to go on.
Hopefully everything works out for Jaime FIRST, then for you. Best of luck.
I have nothing else to say tonight.


> >'Kate
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet?