Update of all updates

[Tiffany]

Holy ****... I knew something was wrong when I got a phone message from
Grandpa M (Sage's fathers father) but I didn't think it would be this bad.

Sage's father died last night. No one knows much as to why.... just that he
was spitting blood, pain, they don't know anything. His mother, who I am
pretty close to, was there with him over the weekend for a visit and she
made him see a MD but other then that, that is all I know.

I am glad she had recent contact with him now. Maybe it will help her in the
long run.

I haven't told her yet. I think it best to have her get to school tomorrow
and tell her after school. (I know, I know..... I just think she should get
a good nights sleep.)

If she wants to go to the funeral, they are taking him back to upstate NY so
we will have to go there for atleast 2 days. Why am I thinking of missing
work and the impact on my wallet? (I am insensitive ass, so no one needs to
bother calling me names)

What if she doesn't want to go? Do I make her? Do I talk her into it? Should
we go? ****!!!!! I don't know how to handle death when dealing with her. My
grandmother passed away last year but she was old, you expect it from the
older loved ones in your life.

Thanks in advance guys.

T

[Joelle]

Wow. What a shock.


>I am glad she had recent contact with him now. Maybe it will help her in the
>long run.

Well now she can believe that her father *would* have come around and spent
more time with her and been a dad to her. She can believe that he didn't want
to leave her.

>What if she doesn't want to go? Do I make her? Do I talk her into it? Should
>we go? ****!!!!! I don't know how to handle death when dealing with her.

If she doesn't want to go, you don't need to make her, but you might want to
find out what she is afraid of going...I think it might be better for her to
go, but it's a tough call.

Good luck

joelle

The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[V]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
nip
>
> What if she doesn't want to go? Do I make her? Do I talk her into it? Should
> we go? ****!!!!! I don't know how to handle death when dealing with her. My
> grandmother passed away last year but she was old, you expect it from the
> older loved ones in your life.
>
> Thanks in advance guys.
>
> T
>
>
How old again is your child? I would not force her. I despise funerals and
resent that my parents made me go to ones I truly did not want to go to. I
don't think there is anything theraputic to see a dead body laying in a
casket.
Just my point zero two cents.
V

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Update of all updates
>From: "Tiffany"
>Date: 4/28/2004 9:45 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Holy ****... I knew something was wrong when I got a phone message from
>Grandpa M (Sage's fathers father) but I didn't think it would be this bad.
>
>Sage's father died last night. No one knows much as to why.... just that he
>was spitting blood, pain, they don't know anything. His mother, who I am
>pretty close to, was there with him over the weekend for a visit and she
>made him see a MD but other then that, that is all I know.
>
>I am glad she had recent contact with him now. Maybe it will help her in the
>long run.

Sorry to hear Tiff, It takes a lot of strength and understanding to help your
daughter through, as well as yourself, yeah he is your ex, but he is also the
father of your child, don't be surprised if you feel a bit *off* yourself.
(((Tiff)))


>I haven't told her yet. I think it best to have her get to school tomorrow
>and tell her after school. (I know, I know..... I just think she should get
>a good nights sleep.)


Moms and Dads usually know thier kids best so yeah do what you are feeling with
this.


>If she wants to go to the funeral, they are taking him back to upstate NY so
>we will have to go there for atleast 2 days. Why am I thinking of missing
>work and the impact on my wallet? (I am insensitive ass, so no one needs to
>bother calling me names)


I don't see this as insensitive.


>What if she doesn't want to go?

She is old enough to make this decision, Let her make it.


> do I make her? Do I talk her into it?


No, I would not, I had a hard time with my daughter who was your daughters age
when G died, she was scared and she wanted to but didn't want to go . She did
decide to go the first day with a promise from me she could leave if she felt
she had to. She stayed the first night, but did not go to any more of the
veiwing or the funeral.



>should we go? ****!!!!! I don't know how to handle death when dealing with
her. My
>grandmother passed away last year but she was old, you expect it from the
>older loved ones in your life.

Hopefully your daughter will decide to go , closure is important, yes if she
decides to go you should try and get her there. Dealing with your daughter will
come naturally, You can do this, the effects of his death will not cripple you
,but losing her dad ,good or bad influence in her life is gonna be hard on her
and with your support she will get through it. Good luck Tiff.
Bev


>Thanks in advance guys.
>
>T
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[lm]

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:45:40 -0400, "Tiffany" >
wrote:

>Holy ****... I knew something was wrong when I got a phone message from
>Grandpa M (Sage's fathers father) but I didn't think it would be this bad.
>
>Sage's father died last night. No one knows much as to why.... just that he
>was spitting blood, pain, they don't know anything. His mother, who I am
>pretty close to, was there with him over the weekend for a visit and she
>made him see a MD but other then that, that is all I know.
>
>I am glad she had recent contact with him now. Maybe it will help her in the
>long run.
>
>I haven't told her yet. I think it best to have her get to school tomorrow
>and tell her after school. (I know, I know..... I just think she should get
>a good nights sleep.)
>
>If she wants to go to the funeral, they are taking him back to upstate NY so
>we will have to go there for atleast 2 days. Why am I thinking of missing
>work and the impact on my wallet? (I am insensitive ass, so no one needs to
>bother calling me names)
>
>What if she doesn't want to go? Do I make her? Do I talk her into it? Should
>we go? ****!!!!! I don't know how to handle death when dealing with her. My
>grandmother passed away last year but she was old, you expect it from the
>older loved ones in your life.
>
>Thanks in advance guys.

Wow, Tiffany. My condolences to you and to your daughter.

lm

[Tiffany]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:52:28 -0500, 'Kate <>
> >On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 21:45:40 -0400, "Tiffany" >
> >>Holy ****... I knew something was wrong when I got a phone message from
> >>Grandpa M (Sage's fathers father) but I didn't think it would be this
bad.
> >>
> >>Sage's father died last night. No one knows much as to why.... just that
he
> >>was spitting blood, pain, they don't know anything. His mother, who I am
> >>pretty close to, was there with him over the weekend for a visit and she
> >>made him see a MD but other then that, that is all I know.
> >>
> >>I am glad she had recent contact with him now. Maybe it will help her in
the
> >>long run.
> >>
> >>I haven't told her yet. I think it best to have her get to school
tomorrow
> >>and tell her after school. (I know, I know..... I just think she should
get
> >>a good nights sleep.)
>
> oops... after writing the long email I looked over this again. I think
> you're right about waiting until tomorrow after school. One day doesn't
> matter. After the funeral does. She needs that option. You need the
> time until then to get things ready just in case and call the school,
> talk to your job, etc...
>
>
> >>If she wants to go to the funeral, they are taking him back to upstate
NY so
> >>we will have to go there for atleast 2 days. Why am I thinking of
missing
> >>work and the impact on my wallet? (I am insensitive ass, so no one needs
to
> >>bother calling me names)
>
> Not insensitive... practical. Food and shelter come first. If you can
> do this for her, then fine. If not, it's not the only way to say
> goodbye.
>
>
> >>What if she doesn't want to go? Do I make her? Do I talk her into it?
Should
> >>we go? ****!!!!! I don't know how to handle death when dealing with her.
My
> >>grandmother passed away last year but she was old, you expect it from
the
> >>older loved ones in your life.
>
> Yeah.. I know. There's no parenting manual that covers this. Not true.
> I have one somewhere in this computer. It's pamphlet on children and
> grief. I have several other things... mostly studies done. Some are
> depressing. All helped in some way but you've already gotten the
> condensed version. Let me know if you want me to send it.
>
> 'Kate
>

I have read and saved your posts. I believe it will be very important in the
upcoming weeks. I will touch base more later. I don't want to be online to
long incase someone is calling.

Thank you so much. Yes, you can send anything that will be helpful.

To send, add annmt before the at.

Tiff

[Bebelestrnge0721]

>Subject: Re: Update of all updates
>From: "Tiffany"
>Date: 4/29/2004 9:13 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>>
>
>
>Thanks to all the replies.... it has all been helpful. I decided to tell her
>last night.... I stayed up with her for a while, as she couldn't sleep. She
>didn't say much yet but that is ok. She cried alittle. She said she feels so
>bad for the upcoming baby who will never know him at all. Damn, she is so
>awesome.

Wow that is some girl ya got there, to be thinking of the baby, when she just
lost her dad, awsome indeed !


>She wants to go to the funeral. We will go one way or the other. I am
>waiting to find out when it is. It is important for her to be with 'his'
>family. She has always been close to them all and this is the only way she
>is really going to grieve. She wants to call his girlfriend and see how she
>is. I told her I would get her a phone card today so she can call anyone she
>needs too.

That is good that you will be able to have her go, looks like you have this in
control and you are doing a great job.


>His mom called me this morning. All I know is I now have a total
>understanding of grief.


"They"say we never really understand someones grief until we experience a
substantial loss ourselves, I surely agree with what "they" say. Grief is never
an excuse for the human condition that follows, but it is a reason for many
different reactions and behaviors. It is a rough road to travel, one that tears
your heart out especially when a child is involved. My thoughts and prayers are
with you , your daughter and all of the family. Take care.
Bev
>Tiffany
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Paul Griffiths]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...

> Holy ****... I knew something was wrong when I got a phone message from
> Grandpa M (Sage's fathers father) but I didn't think it would be this bad.
>
> Sage's father died last night. No one knows much as to why.... just that
he
> was spitting blood, pain, they don't know anything. His mother, who I am
> pretty close to, was there with him over the weekend for a visit and she
> made him see a MD but other then that, that is all I know.

This is always bad news regardless of anything else. My sympathies to
everyone affected.

> I am glad she had recent contact with him now. Maybe it will help her in
the
> long run.

Let's hope so.

> I haven't told her yet. I think it best to have her get to school tomorrow
> and tell her after school. (I know, I know..... I just think she should
get
> a good nights sleep.)

I agree, there's no rush and it's better to be in a decent state of mind to
find out something like this. Assuming there's a choice of course.

> If she wants to go to the funeral, they are taking him back to upstate NY
so
> we will have to go there for atleast 2 days. Why am I thinking of missing
> work and the impact on my wallet? (I am insensitive ass, so no one needs
to
> bother calling me names)

You're nothing of the sort. All sorts of weird thoughts run through the
mind at times like this so don't be too hard on yourself.

> What if she doesn't want to go?

Then I'd say it's her choice.

> Do I make her? Do I talk her into it?

If it were me I don't think I would, no. If she wants to go that's
different but forcing her to go if she *really* doesn't want to will
probably do more harm than good. You know her, so you're in the best
position to decide.

> Should we go?

If you want to.

> ****!!!!! I don't know how to handle death when dealing with her.

It's never easy but I'd suggest trying to be honest. If your feelings are
confused then don't be afraid to say so. There's no right or wrong way to
feel at a time like this.

> My grandmother passed away last year but she was old, you expect it
> from the older loved ones in your life.

True but in some ways it's still a shock.

> Thanks in advance guys.

Just hope it helps.


--
Paul Griffiths

[quietguy]

Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you were a
sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost unbelievable
- SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.

Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now. I hope
her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

David

PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though

'Kate wrote:

> ......
>
> If you can send her, and she wants to go and if she's never been to a
> funeral, prepare her for the setting, what her father may look like (if
> open casket), and what people usually do and say. If it is not possible
> to send her or if she does not want to go,

[CME]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
>
> Thanks to all the replies.... it has all been helpful. I decided to tell
her
> last night.... I stayed up with her for a while, as she couldn't sleep.
She
> didn't say much yet but that is ok. She cried alittle. She said she feels
so
> bad for the upcoming baby who will never know him at all. Damn, she is so
> awesome.
>
> She wants to go to the funeral. We will go one way or the other. I am
> waiting to find out when it is. It is important for her to be with 'his'
> family. She has always been close to them all and this is the only way she
> is really going to grieve. She wants to call his girlfriend and see how
she
> is. I told her I would get her a phone card today so she can call anyone
she
> needs too.
>
> His mom called me this morning. All I know is I now have a total
> understanding of grief.
>
> Tiffany
>

OMG Tiff I'm so sorry to hear this. You have an amazing daughter. So how
are YOU dealing with this news? It must be quite a shock hon I'm sorry. :(

Christine

[CME]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
> Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you
were a
> sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost
unbelievable
> - SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.
>
> Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now.
I hope
> her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
> should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.
>
> David
>
> PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though
>
<snipped Kate's post because someone top posted>

Wow so you take her whole post and chuck it because she said Tiff should
send her daughter? So let me get this straight... now Kate's not a caring
and supportive person just because you happen to disagree with her advice???
Gimme a frickin break, who are you anyways? I may have been busy lately and
not posting as often but I sure don't see any posts of value coming from you
to rip someone apart that's been contributing to this ng for years. So
really I'd like to see you put in some effort before I start taking you
serious. Sheesh.

Christine
(Who's been here 4 years, so save it.)

[lm]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:11:35 +1000, quietguy
> wrote:

>Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you were a
>sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost unbelievable
>- SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.
>
>Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now. I hope
>her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
>should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.
>
>David
>
>PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though

The daughter has a good relationship with her father's family. It
sounds as though she'd have plenty of support there.

I've thought about this myself, what would I do if my boys' father
died. My presence would not be helpful to anyone, as there would be
way too much tension, and I don't think that would be fair to his
family at that time. I would ask my boys' adult cousin to be with them
at the ceremony.

lm

[Tiffany]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>

Again, thank to all for the support. All the advice has been helpful. The
service is Sunday so we will head up Saturday or Sunday morning. I haven't
really spoke with anyone yet, just message's left on the machine. I think
Sage would like to go up early to see everyone. I am not sending her alone,
I am going to drive her up. I will probably go off on my own for some time
though so she can have time with them. She is doing ok for now. She went to
school yesterday but I think it got to her, everyone cooing over her. She is
going to hang out with me today at work.

I copied the few pictures of him and her I have and she said she will make a
collage and frame it for him.

I am dreading this weekend. I know how its going to go, I hope I bite my
tongue if/when a relative talks like he was a great dad. I know that won't
be the time plus what they don't know won't hurt them. Maybe some muscle
relaxes are in order. :)

T

[quietguy]

'Kate wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:11:35 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you were a
> >sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost unbelievable

> SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.
> >
> >Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now. I hope
> >her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
> >should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.
> >
> >David
> >
> >PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though
>
> "Send her" was because money IS a consideration. If it comes down to a
> choice between her not going, one of them going, or both not going, I'd
> rather she went alone. She is not going to strangers... she is going to
> her grandparent. Unless you've had to make the choice, you wouldn't
> understand. That's my rationale for that statement. Do you disagree
> with it?
>

Yes I would disagree Kate, very strongly. Whist my views might change if I had more
information about that family, if Sage was to go alone my concerns would be...

She is a long way from home if things go horribly wrong

Funerals are often very traumatic for those concerned - people are often (sadly)
desperate to blame someone for what has happened - what if the family (or some
member of it) puts the blame for Sages fathers death on her? (eg if only Sage had
responded/been nicer/more forgiving/accepting/whatever then he wouldn't have died.

Perhaps others at the funeral will attempt to blame Sages mother - if only she been
nicer/accepting/whatever he wouldn't have turned to drugs. How would Sage handle
that?

What if the Grandparents own grief is so bad that they are simply unable to support
Sage?

Perhaps anger at the departed son will spill over to Sage?

Can Sage properly express her own feelings (what ever they may be) to people who are
in a state of grief. Especially any negative ones such as "why did he leave me" etc
etc) Perhaps she can, perhaps she cannot.

My experience (Social Worker - 20+ years as a counsellor/therapist) is that some of
the things I have listed above do happen, and not so rarely as we would like. I
could never advise a client to follow the path you suggest.

>
> And oh, thanks for the critique.

It wasn't meant to be a critique - just not throwing the baby out with the bathwater

> That's the culmination of 5 years of
> research and work with children and grief. I don't see you
> contributing anything but a review of my post and the nitpicking.

You are right here Kate about my contributions in the NG - and although I am making
an exception here, I generally reply to posts directly to the person concerned.

However, I think you are quite wrong in describing my objection to encouraging a
mother to let a young girl travel many miles alone to a very emotional and possibly
traumatic event as nitpicking. Were you giving that advice while acting in a
professional capacity, and things went badly wrong, you could easily end up on the
wrong side of a disiplinary hearing, and maybe a civil lawsuit.


David

[quietguy]

Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is OK) it
would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at least read
my post in full.

As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe the advice
she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to attend a
funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.

And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit about
sending Sage off to funeral by herself

Had you bothered to read my PS - which read "The rest of what you you wrote
sounded OK though" you see clearly that I did not "chuck out" her whole post -
only that part I had grave concerns about.

If you really want to know who I am etc feel free to drop me a line anytime and
I will be happy to send you a copy of my resume.

IN the future - please take the time to read all of my post before jumping down
my throat.

David

CME wrote:

> "quietguy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you
> were a
> > sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost
> unbelievable
> > - SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.
> >
> > Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now.
> I hope
> > her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
> > should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.
> >
> > David
> >
> > PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though
> >
> <snipped Kate's post because someone top posted>
>
> Wow so you take her whole post and chuck it because she said Tiff should
> send her daughter? So let me get this straight... now Kate's not a caring
> and supportive person just because you happen to disagree with her advice???
> Gimme a frickin break, who are you anyways? I may have been busy lately and
> not posting as often but I sure don't see any posts of value coming from you
> to rip someone apart that's been contributing to this ng for years. So
> really I'd like to see you put in some effort before I start taking you
> serious. Sheesh.
>
> Christine
> (Who's been here 4 years, so save it.)

[Tiffany]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> 'Kate wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 08:11:35 +1000, quietguy
> > >
> > >Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that
you were a
> > >sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost
unbelievable
>
> > SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.
> > >
> > >Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is
now. I hope
> > >her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then
mum
> > >should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.
> > >
> > >David
> > >
> > >PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though
> >
> > "Send her" was because money IS a consideration. If it comes down to a
> > choice between her not going, one of them going, or both not going, I'd
> > rather she went alone. She is not going to strangers... she is going to
> > her grandparent. Unless you've had to make the choice, you wouldn't
> > understand. That's my rationale for that statement. Do you disagree
> > with it?
> >
>
> Yes I would disagree Kate, very strongly. Whist my views might change if
I had more
> information about that family, if Sage was to go alone my concerns would
be...
>
> She is a long way from home if things go horribly wrong
>
> Funerals are often very traumatic for those concerned - people are often
(sadly)
> desperate to blame someone for what has happened - what if the family (or
some
> member of it) puts the blame for Sages fathers death on her? (eg if only
Sage had
> responded/been nicer/more forgiving/accepting/whatever then he wouldn't
have died.

No one is even sure yet why he died. No one to blame. Her family has been
totally supportive her whole 13 years. I have trusted her care to them (she
would fly up to them alone for a week or two in the summer) and would under
any situation.

>
> Perhaps others at the funeral will attempt to blame Sages mother - if only
she been
> nicer/accepting/whatever he wouldn't have turned to drugs. How would Sage
handle
> that?

Her father had drug issues when he was 16. They know no one is to blame but
him. If they are blaming anyone, it is sure to be themselves, as parents
often do.

>
> What if the Grandparents own grief is so bad that they are simply unable
to support
> Sage?
>
> Perhaps anger at the departed son will spill over to Sage?
>
> Can Sage properly express her own feelings (what ever they may be) to
people who are
> in a state of grief. Especially any negative ones such as "why did he
leave me" etc
> etc) Perhaps she can, perhaps she cannot.

Perhaps they have enough sense to not put that on her. I trust they would.
>
> My experience (Social Worker - 20+ years as a counsellor/therapist) is
that some of
> the things I have listed above do happen, and not so rarely as we would
like. I
> could never advise a client to follow the path you suggest.
>
> >
> > And oh, thanks for the critique.
>
> It wasn't meant to be a critique - just not throwing the baby out with the
bathwater
>
> > That's the culmination of 5 years of
> > research and work with children and grief. I don't see you
> > contributing anything but a review of my post and the nitpicking.
>
> You are right here Kate about my contributions in the NG - and although I
am making
> an exception here, I generally reply to posts directly to the person
concerned.
>
> However, I think you are quite wrong in describing my objection to
encouraging a
> mother to let a young girl travel many miles alone to a very emotional and
possibly
> traumatic event as nitpicking. Were you giving that advice while acting
in a
> professional capacity, and things went badly wrong, you could easily end
up on the
> wrong side of a disiplinary hearing, and maybe a civil lawsuit.
>
>
> David
>
>

Kate was not giving any advice as a professional. This is a NG, not an
office. This is the internet and Kate might not even be female for all I
know. She could be a 18 year old with nothing better to do then give good
advice. I take what I need and she offered alot of help and will continue to
do so if I ask. That is the good thing about this.... support. Support and
professional help is 2 different things though. I have been hear sometime
and know Kate. I trust her advice.

Thank you for the concern. Everything I do I do with my child in mind. We
are going to the funeral together in the morning. Kate didn't know how far
we had to go so the advice to send was based on not knowing that, thinking I
might not be able to afford 2 airfares, ect. It isn't to far, we can drive
it. If it were much farther, I might have made the decision to fly her to
her family without me. I trust them completely.

Tiffany

[Tiffany]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>

Things here have been ok. My daughter got pictures together (we only had a
few of the 2 of them) and we copied them and she made a poster of the pics
of her, her and him, his family, his dog, ect. It turned out pretty nice.
She is going to put it in the coffin.

She tells me she didn't want to go up there today because she knows when she
gets there, everyone is going to 'freak out'. I said, yes, they will be very
emotional and then you will become just as emotional and that is fine. But
she said, everyone thinks she should be so devastated but she isn't because
she didn't know him that well. I said that is true and a legitament feeling.
She said that I didn't seem upset, that I hadn't cried. I said, I am
different, I am not a big crier. But that is me, and she can cry all she
wants. She can scream and do anything and feel anything. It is hard for me
to tell her that I really don't feel much one way or the other. Anyone
losing their life is sad though. I feel for her and his family. When we
called up there to say we wouldn't be there until tomorrow, I think they
were upset. Oh well. I can't be concerned with everyone else, she comes
first.

So we are off early in the morning, the wake is at 3 then the funeral is
Monday morning.

Thanks again all for all the support.

Tiffany

[Paul Griffiths]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> So we are off early in the morning, the wake is at 3 then the funeral is
> Monday morning.
>
> Thanks again all for all the support.

I hope it works out okay for you all. Thinking of you.


--
Paul Griffiths

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 02 May 2004 09:48:59 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is
OK) it
> >would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at
least read
> >my post in full.
> >
> >As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe
the advice
> >she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to
attend a
> >funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.
> >
> >And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit
about
> >sending Sage off to funeral by herself
>
> You have trouble with the word IF don't you?

You'd think that after 20+ years of 'social work' the guy wuold have
better reading comprehension than what he shows here. '13-14' yo is not
"very young', nor likely confused, and nowhere did anyone say attedninf by
herself. The only irresponsiblity is the self proclaimed social worker and
his ASSuming........

>

[CME]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
> Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is
OK) it
> would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at least
read
> my post in full.
>
> As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe the
advice
> she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to
attend a
> funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.
>
> And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit
about
> sending Sage off to funeral by herself
>
> Had you bothered to read my PS - which read "The rest of what you you
wrote
> sounded OK though" you see clearly that I did not "chuck out" her whole
post -
> only that part I had grave concerns about.
>
> If you really want to know who I am etc feel free to drop me a line
anytime and
> I will be happy to send you a copy of my resume.
>
> IN the future - please take the time to read all of my post before jumping
down
> my throat.
>
> David
>

I am fully capable of reading, meaning I did read your 'PS'. ;) Doesn't
change my evaluation of that particular post btw.

Christine

> CME wrote:
>
> > "quietguy" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that
you
> > were a
> > > sensitive and caring person - but your thoughts below I find almost
> > unbelievable
> > > - SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that
Kate.
> > >
> > > Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is
now.
> > I hope
> > > her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then
mum
> > > should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > PS The rest of what you you wrote sounded OK though
> > >
> > <snipped Kate's post because someone top posted>
> >
> > Wow so you take her whole post and chuck it because she said Tiff should
> > send her daughter? So let me get this straight... now Kate's not a
caring
> > and supportive person just because you happen to disagree with her
advice???
> > Gimme a frickin break, who are you anyways? I may have been busy lately
and
> > not posting as often but I sure don't see any posts of value coming from
you
> > to rip someone apart that's been contributing to this ng for years. So
> > really I'd like to see you put in some effort before I start taking you
> > serious. Sheesh.
> >
> > Christine
> > (Who's been here 4 years, so save it.)
>

[CME]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> Things here have been ok. My daughter got pictures together (we only had a
> few of the 2 of them) and we copied them and she made a poster of the pics
> of her, her and him, his family, his dog, ect. It turned out pretty nice.
> She is going to put it in the coffin.
>
> She tells me she didn't want to go up there today because she knows when
she
> gets there, everyone is going to 'freak out'. I said, yes, they will be
very
> emotional and then you will become just as emotional and that is fine. But
> she said, everyone thinks she should be so devastated but she isn't
because
> she didn't know him that well. I said that is true and a legitament
feeling.
> She said that I didn't seem upset, that I hadn't cried. I said, I am
> different, I am not a big crier. But that is me, and she can cry all she
> wants. She can scream and do anything and feel anything. It is hard for me
> to tell her that I really don't feel much one way or the other. Anyone
> losing their life is sad though. I feel for her and his family. When we
> called up there to say we wouldn't be there until tomorrow, I think they
> were upset. Oh well. I can't be concerned with everyone else, she comes
> first.
>
> So we are off early in the morning, the wake is at 3 then the funeral is
> Monday morning.
>
> Thanks again all for all the support.
>
> Tiffany
>

My thoughts are with you and your daughter Tiff. Have a safe trip.

Christine

[quietguy]

Hi Kate

Well, I will try to contribute more, but only when I have something worthwhile
to contribute.


Seeing you have bet your 26 years of motherhood against my 20 years of social
work, I guess I will have to raise the pot with 40+ years of fatherhood. Can
you raise the betting? :-)

David - who is happy to see that Kate has so many defenders of her wisdom

'Kate wrote:

>
>
> I wish this guy would contribute more than to critique my posts. I
> doubt my nearly 26 years of motherhood have anything on his 20 years in
> social work.
>
> 'Kate

[quietguy]

I do have trouble understanding what you mean by that sentence Kate

David

'Kate wrote:

> On Sun, 02 May 2004 09:48:59 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is OK) it
> >would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at least read
> >my post in full.
> >
> >As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe the advice
> >she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to attend a
> >funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.
> >
> >And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit about
> >sending Sage off to funeral by herself
>
> You have trouble with the word IF don't you?

[quietguy]

Paul, while I generally try not to be nasty, and never mind relevent criticism,
to I say get nicked. Go back and read some of the posts about this situation
before shooting of your silly little mouth/keyboard.

David

Paul Fritz wrote:

> <'Kate> wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 02 May 2004 09:48:59 +1000, quietguy
> > >
> > >Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and that is
> OK) it
> > >would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had at
> least read
> > >my post in full.
> > >
> > >As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I believe
> the advice
> > >she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed child to
> attend a
> > >funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.
> > >
> > >And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the bit
> about
> > >sending Sage off to funeral by herself
> >
> > You have trouble with the word IF don't you?
>
> You'd think that after 20+ years of 'social work' the guy wuold have
> better reading comprehension than what he shows here. '13-14' yo is not
> "very young', nor likely confused, and nowhere did anyone say attedninf by
> herself. The only irresponsiblity is the self proclaimed social worker and
> his ASSuming........
>
> >

[quietguy]

Actually Kate, I think you do me a wrong here - as I said in a previous post I
thought the advice you gave was sound, except for the bit about sending the girl
to funeral alone.

The reason I did not write more was simply that I thought you covered the
situation quite well, and I really didn't have anything worthwhile to add.

I have no intention of being your personal cop - just wanted to point out that I
had grave concerns about ONE piece of advice you offered. I wasn't intending to
start WWIII, tho it seems that you and others in the group are intent on
developing a flame war.

Re your comment about risking "an anonymous post". I again think you do me an
unfair wrong - I do not post anonymously - apart from the spam avoider, which is
very clear to most people, my "from" address is real - test it if you wish.

David

'Kate wrote:

>
> What gets me is he has knowledge and is so afraid of using it even in an
> anonymous news group. If he *could* help, if he had the information and
> the way to say it, he wouldn't. He'd rather be my personal cop. How can
> one work in the field and not care enough to risk an anonymous post? I
> may be opinionated or prideful or whatever else, but at least I've
> always been willing to share my thoughts and feelings as a single
> parent... I might even be of some service. <shrug> In any event, I'm
> here and I'm trying to be helpful.
>
> 'Kate
>

[Joelle]

>as I said in a previous post I
>thought the advice you gave was sound, except for the bit about sending the
>girl
>to funeral alone.
>

If you have a different opinion why not just say "Well here's another POV, I
don't think she should go by herself" - why do you need to criticize Kate
because she has different advice than you do?

The whole idea of this ng is to get different opinions, and then people make up
their own minds. It does seem kind of weird that you seemed more interested in
going off on Kate for giving advice that you didn't agree with than giving the
OP your own advice.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[quietguy]

Joelle wrote:

> >as I said in a previous post I
> >thought the advice you gave was sound, except for the bit about sending the
> >girl
> >to funeral alone.
> >
>
> If you have a different opinion why not just say "Well here's another POV, I
> don't think she should go by herself" - why do you need to criticize Kate
> because she has different advice than you do?

Hi Joelle

Having read some of Kate's previous posts I (apparently incorrectly) assumed she
was professionally qualified - here in Oz you wouldn't be accepted into a
(legitimate) family therapy program without professional qualifications in
psychology or social work, or perhaps as an MD doing a psychiatry placement.
Hence being accepted into such a program indicated two things - first that it was
a University Based program or one run by a professional body (other programs take
anyone who is willing to pay) and second that she has had extensive experience as
a qualified therapist.

And while I never intimated that she was giving that advice as a professional
service, the nature of her advice was so contrary to good practice, and so out of
charactor to other advice of hers that I was rather dumbfounded. It just didn't
fit.

>
> The whole idea of this ng is to get different opinions, and then people make up
> their own minds.

It seems that this only applies to Kate though - when I expressed my opinion about
Kate's post I was attacked and criticised. And rather than dispute my views with
legitimate debate and discussion, the attacks were personal.

Now, I am old enough and ugly enough to deal with those sorts of attacks -
especially by boys like Paul who don't even bother to check their facts - but I
would much prefer to engage in rational debate.

I just trust all this garbage hasn't caused distress to Tiffany, who I believe has
made very wise decisions about handling the whole issue.

> It does seem kind of weird that you seemed more interested in
> going off on Kate for giving advice that you didn't agree with than giving the
> OP your own advice.

As I have said in another post, I had nothing more to add to the discussion - as I
thought Kate had covered most of the issues very well.

regards
David

>
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
> Paul, while I generally try not to be nasty, and never mind relevent
criticism,
> to I say get nicked. Go back and read some of the posts about this
situation
> before shooting of your silly little mouth/keyboard.

<snicker> ASSuming once again......let me guess...you worked for the
guvmint.......your attitude is sooooooooooooooooo typical.

BTW you are the one that totally missed the gist of the previous posts.

For "20+ years of self proclaimed social work......you are FOS.

Your 'ad hom' attack is duly noted as a lack of any real
rebuttal.........is that how you practiced your 'social work' as well

<snicker>


>
> David
>
> Paul Fritz wrote:
>
> > <'Kate> wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sun, 02 May 2004 09:48:59 +1000, quietguy
> > > >
> > > >Christine, it seems that while you are happy to attack me, (and
that is
> > OK) it
> > > >would be much more meaningfull if you showed somehow that you had
at
> > least read
> > > >my post in full.
> > > >
> > > >As you will note in a post where I have responded to Kate, I
believe
> > the advice
> > > >she gave about sending a very young, confused, and distressed
child to
> > attend a
> > > >funeral by herself to be irresponsible and inapproriate.
> > > >
> > > >And despite what you say, I didn't chuck her whole post, just the
bit
> > about
> > > >sending Sage off to funeral by herself
> > >
> > > You have trouble with the word IF don't you?
> >
> > You'd think that after 20+ years of 'social work' the guy wuold
have
> > better reading comprehension than what he shows here. '13-14' yo is
not
> > "very young', nor likely confused, and nowhere did anyone say
attedninf by
> > herself. The only irresponsiblity is the self proclaimed social
worker and
> > his ASSuming........
> >
> > >
>

[Paul Fritz]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Joelle wrote:
>
> > >as I said in a previous post I
> > >thought the advice you gave was sound, except for the bit about
sending the
> > >girl
> > >to funeral alone.
> > >
> >
> > If you have a different opinion why not just say "Well here's another
POV, I
> > don't think she should go by herself" - why do you need to criticize
Kate
> > because she has different advice than you do?
>
> Hi Joelle
>
> Having read some of Kate's previous posts I (apparently incorrectly)
assumed she
> was professionally qualified - here in Oz you wouldn't be accepted into
a
> (legitimate) family therapy program without professional qualifications
in
> psychology or social work, or perhaps as an MD doing a psychiatry
placement.
> Hence being accepted into such a program indicated two things - first
that it was
> a University Based program or one run by a professional body (other
programs take
> anyone who is willing to pay) and second that she has had extensive
experience as
> a qualified therapist.
>
> And while I never intimated that she was giving that advice as a
professional
> service, the nature of her advice was so contrary to good practice, and
so out of
> charactor to other advice of hers that I was rather dumbfounded. It
just didn't
> fit.
>
> >
> > The whole idea of this ng is to get different opinions, and then
people make up
> > their own minds.
>
> It seems that this only applies to Kate though - when I expressed my
opinion about
> Kate's post I was attacked and criticised. And rather than dispute my
views with
> legitimate debate and discussion, the attacks were personal.

<snicker> better look in the mirror as to who is doing the personal
attacking.

>
> Now, I am old enough and ugly enough to deal with those sorts of
attacks -
> especially by boys like Paul who don't even bother to check their
facts - but I
> would much prefer to engage in rational debate.

Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your sleeve.....what a mar00n

>
> I just trust all this garbage hasn't caused distress to Tiffany, who I
believe has
> made very wise decisions about handling the whole issue.

Garbage like you have strewn????

>
> > It does seem kind of weird that you seemed more interested in
> > going off on Kate for giving advice that you didn't agree with than
giving the
> > OP your own advice.
>
> As I have said in another post, I had nothing more to add to the
discussion - as I
> thought Kate had covered most of the issues very well.

Yet you keep posting.......hypocrite.

>
> regards
> David
>
> >
> >
> >
>

[Joelle]

>Having read some of Kate's previous posts I (apparently incorrectly) assumed
>she
>was professionally qualified - here in Oz you wouldn't be accepted into a
>(legitimate) family therapy program without professional qualifications in

Okay, this isn't Oz, and you don't have to be professionally qualified to give
advice, you say you understand that, but you don't seem to.

>and then people make up
>> their own minds.
>
>
It seems that this only applies to Kate though - when I expressed my opinion
>about
>Kate's post I was attacked and criticised. And rather than dispute my views
with
>legitimate debate and discussion, the attacks were personal.
>

Because YOU made it personal. Instead of simply disagreeing with her advice
you made it abotu Kate. Now you are unhappy because it turned personal? You
thought you could turn this to be about Kate and it wouldn't come back to bite
you on the butt?

You may be some great therapist and father, but just from how you handled
yourself here, you seem kind of clueless to me.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[lm]

On 03 May 2004 03:39:10 GMT, (Joelle) wrote:

>>as I said in a previous post I
>>thought the advice you gave was sound, except for the bit about sending the
>>girl
>>to funeral alone.
>>
>
>If you have a different opinion why not just say "Well here's another POV, I
>don't think she should go by herself" - why do you need to criticize Kate
>because she has different advice than you do?

Wow. His message was fine but he could have been nicer about it? You
sound like a newbie. Odd, that.

>The whole idea of this ng is to get different opinions, and then people make up
>their own minds. It does seem kind of weird that you seemed more interested in
>going off on Kate for giving advice that you didn't agree with than giving the
>OP your own advice.

This is just so weird coming from you. I guess it's because the target
was Kate, but I'll refer you to the FAQ anyway.

lm

[Joelle]

>>Wow. His message was fine but he could have been nicer about it? You
>sound like a newbie. Odd, that.

No, I don't care if he's nice or not, I was saying he was targeting his advice,
not at the issue, but was critiquing someone else's advice, and he didn't seem
to understand why other people would take issue with that.

>This is just so weird coming from you. I guess it's because the target
>was Kate, but I'll refer you to the FAQ anyway.
>

I often try to explain to people the difference between critisizing an opinion
and making a personal attack, which is what this guy did, I believe that's
covered in the FAQ...

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[P.Fritz]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >Having read some of Kate's previous posts I (apparently incorrectly)
assumed
> >she
> >was professionally qualified - here in Oz you wouldn't be accepted into a
> >(legitimate) family therapy program without professional qualifications
in
>
> Okay, this isn't Oz, and you don't have to be professionally qualified to
give
> advice, you say you understand that, but you don't seem to.
>
> >and then people make up
> >> their own minds.
> >
> >
> It seems that this only applies to Kate though - when I expressed my
opinion
> >about
> >Kate's post I was attacked and criticised. And rather than dispute my
views
> with
> >legitimate debate and discussion, the attacks were personal.
> >
>
> Because YOU made it personal. Instead of simply disagreeing with her
advice
> you made it abotu Kate. Now you are unhappy because it turned personal?
You
> thought you could turn this to be about Kate and it wouldn't come back to
bite
> you on the butt?

And then, when challenged, he resorted to personal attacks himself.

>
> You may be some great therapist and father,

doubtful from the way he handled himself here.

>but just from how you handled
> yourself here, you seem kind of clueless to me.

Agreed.

>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle

[P.Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 3 May 2004 09:53:37 -0400, "P.Fritz"
> >
> >
> >"Joelle" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Having read some of Kate's previous posts I (apparently incorrectly)
> >assumed
> >> >she
> >> >was professionally qualified - here in Oz you wouldn't be accepted
into a
> >> >(legitimate) family therapy program without professional
qualifications
> >in
> >>
> >> Okay, this isn't Oz, and you don't have to be professionally qualified
to
> >give
> >> advice, you say you understand that, but you don't seem to.
> >>
> >> >and then people make up
> >> >> their own minds.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> It seems that this only applies to Kate though - when I expressed my
> >opinion
> >> >about
> >> >Kate's post I was attacked and criticised. And rather than dispute my
> >views
> >> with
> >> >legitimate debate and discussion, the attacks were personal.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Because YOU made it personal. Instead of simply disagreeing with her
> >advice
> >> you made it abotu Kate. Now you are unhappy because it turned
personal?
> >You
> >> thought you could turn this to be about Kate and it wouldn't come back
to
> >bite
> >> you on the butt?
> >
> >And then, when challenged, he resorted to personal attacks himself.
> >
> >>
> >> You may be some great therapist and father,
> >
> >doubtful from the way he handled himself here.
> >
> >>but just from how you handled
> >> yourself here, you seem kind of clueless to me.
> >
> >Agreed.
> >
> >>
> >> Joelle
> >> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> >> Augustine
> >> Joelle
>
> I learn so much by being here. You guys really know how to break down a
> problem into its parts. Thank you!
>
> 'Kate

Let's just say the B.S. detecto started sounding it's alarm.


>
>

[quietguy]

'Kate wrote:

> I absolutely disagree that money doesn't matter even when someone dies.
> I know that I can conceptualize having to make decisions that are less
> than optimal for individuals in the family because money is tight... or
> not available. You surprise me when you don't consider it especially
> because of your background. Social work is usually more considerate of
> the types of problems imposed by society on the poor.

Hi Kate

Am I having trouble with my memory or reading? I really cannot recall saying
anything that resembles money does not matter - and as someone who had to work
three jobs to meet mortgage payments when my (4) kids were young, I think I do
understand what it means to be short of money - tho I was never REALLY poor in the
context of no food etc.

> And this disagreement is because of a pattern that is developing. I
> answer a post, you reply picking up one little thing.

Perhaps Kate that is because usually you only say one little thing that seems to
me to require a reply - as I have said in previous posts your advice is (in my
view) usually spot on - so I cannot in fairness dismiss the totality of what you
say.

> What I take issue with is how you
> do it... as if to say, "Are you nuts?"

When I made my first post about your suggestion that Sage go to the funeral alone,
that IS what I was saying - However, I was trying to be polite and attack the
statement, not you personally. What struck me then was that idea seemed so out of
context to the other good stuff you had been posting. What I regret is that you
and everyone else have honed in on my view of that statement, without
acknowledging, or apparently even reading, my accompanying comment about the high
quality of your other posts.


> Frankly, I probably am nuts but
> that has nothing to do with it. :-)
>
> I wish you'd contribute more than just critiquing my posts.
>

Fair enough - this is my last 'nasty' post to you.

Cheers and good wishes

David

PS No wait - (struggle struggle - trying to drag my fingers away from this
keyboard - but they are to strong for me) I cannot resist one last dig - in a
recent post from Tiffany I note that Sage herself was wise and perceptive enough
to realise that her father's family might "freaking out" due to grief.

[quietguy]

Paul Fritz wrote:

> ....
>
> Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your sleeve.....what a mar00n

Hi Paul

Actually it is still only autumn here so I have to carry my hypocrisy in my
shorts pocket these days - but please let me know what a mar00n is in the US -
here in Oz it is a colour - sort of dark red, or a lolly, sort of like a
Cherry Ripe.

Cheers and good wishes

David

Since I have been kind enough to tell you where I carry my hypocrisy, be fair
and tell me how you carry all that stupid around. Must be a hell of a weight.

[quietguy]

Joelle, I have always thought I had a fairly good command of language - here is a
copy of my original post -

> Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that you were a

> sensitive and caring person

This part IS personal, but is my recognition of her sensitivity and caring nature
- is it bad to say I respect what she writes?

> - but your thoughts below I find almost unbelievable

You think that is nasty? A personal attack?

> - SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that Kate.

You think that is nasty? A personal attack? It simply reflects my astonishment at
her suggestion - not nasty at all.


> Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is now. I hope

> her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend then mum
> should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.

Here I offer an alternative opinion

Perhaps you might compare my posts and responses with those of that Paul kid (yep
I was NASTY and personal back to him - I don't suffer abusive fools lightly, but
happily accept (and debate) courteous criticism)

David

Joelle wrote:

> >>Wow. His message was fine but he could have been nicer about it? You
> >sound like a newbie. Odd, that.
>
> No, I don't care if he's nice or not, I was saying he was targeting his advice,
> not at the issue, but was critiquing someone else's advice, and he didn't seem
> to understand why other people would take issue with that.
>
> >This is just so weird coming from you. I guess it's because the target
> >was Kate, but I'll refer you to the FAQ anyway.
> >
>
> I often try to explain to people the difference between critisizing an opinion
> and making a personal attack, which is what this guy did, I believe that's
> covered in the FAQ...
>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine

He should have added that many people only read the bits they want to 'hear'

[V]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >as I said in a previous post I
> >thought the advice you gave was sound, except for the bit about sending the
> >girl
> >to funeral alone.
> >
>
> If you have a different opinion why not just say "Well here's another POV, I
> don't think she should go by herself" - why do you need to criticize Kate
> because she has different advice than you do?
>
> The whole idea of this ng is to get different opinions, and then people make
up
> their own minds. It does seem kind of weird that you seemed more interested
in
> going off on Kate for giving advice that you didn't agree with than giving
the
> OP your own advice.
>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle

Because it is easier to be rude on usenet.
V

[quietguy]

Kate, I certainly DO NOT mean to insinuate that YOU (or any other female) should
post with real addys - too many weirdos out there

....and to other members of this group...
OK. Lets get it over with before all the flames arrive - yes I AM sexist, in some
areas - I happily admit it when it comes to suggesting females are wise to protect
themselves by not giving out real names/addresses on the net.

David

'Kate wrote:

> I post anonymously. I do so because I do not want reprisals IRL. I
> I've had the 'net come into my real life in the past and that's simply
> unacceptable... so I maintain a boundary.
>
> I understand your reason for questioning... the other post explains the
> rest.
>
> 'Kate

[quietguy]

Paul Fritz wrote:

>
> Your 'ad hom' attack is duly noted as a lack of any real
> rebuttal.........is that how you practiced your 'social work' as well
>

Gee Paul Fritz, you silly sausage (pun intended) you have me there mate,
though I would much rather argue with you in English - please translate what
'ad hom' means so I can make some scathing reply

David - who is still wondering what a marOON is

[quietguy]

I am not sure what you mean here Kate. In Oz, Marriage and Family therapy is
carried out by Social Workers, Psychologists, and some Psychiatrists. Is this not
the case in the US?

To get into a legitimate post graduate Family Therapy Program usually requires at
least a four year degree and some years of clinical experience.

Most Social Workers here are well trained in individual therapy as part of their
degree work, and some (like me for instance) take the opportunity to undertake
take training in Family Therapy as well. Others may specialise in Group work
instead.

Reading between the lines (but maybe incorrectly) it sounds as if you relate
Social Work just to case work by employees of child protection agencies etc -
whereas over here that sort of work is usually done by non-professionals who only
have a three year degree in Social Welfare or (in the past) just had in-house
training.

David

'Kate wrote:

>
> Social work is a different animal than Marriage and Family therapy. By
> the time they get to a social worker, there have already been grave
> consequences.
>
> 'Kate

[Tiffany]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> 'Kate wrote:
>
> > I absolutely disagree that money doesn't matter even when someone dies.
> > I know that I can conceptualize having to make decisions that are less
> > than optimal for individuals in the family because money is tight... or
> > not available. You surprise me when you don't consider it especially
> > because of your background. Social work is usually more considerate of
> > the types of problems imposed by society on the poor.
>
> Hi Kate
>
> Am I having trouble with my memory or reading? I really cannot recall
saying
> anything that resembles money does not matter - and as someone who had to
work
> three jobs to meet mortgage payments when my (4) kids were young, I think
I do
> understand what it means to be short of money - tho I was never REALLY
poor in the
> context of no food etc.
>
> > And this disagreement is because of a pattern that is developing. I
> > answer a post, you reply picking up one little thing.
>
> Perhaps Kate that is because usually you only say one little thing that
seems to
> me to require a reply - as I have said in previous posts your advice is
(in my
> view) usually spot on - so I cannot in fairness dismiss the totality of
what you
> say.
>
> > What I take issue with is how you
> > do it... as if to say, "Are you nuts?"
>
> When I made my first post about your suggestion that Sage go to the
funeral alone,
> that IS what I was saying - However, I was trying to be polite and attack
the
> statement, not you personally. What struck me then was that idea seemed
so out of
> context to the other good stuff you had been posting. What I regret is
that you
> and everyone else have honed in on my view of that statement, without
> acknowledging, or apparently even reading, my accompanying comment about
the high
> quality of your other posts.
>
>
> > Frankly, I probably am nuts but
> > that has nothing to do with it. :-)
> >
> > I wish you'd contribute more than just critiquing my posts.
> >
>
> Fair enough - this is my last 'nasty' post to you.
>
> Cheers and good wishes
>
> David
>
> PS No wait - (struggle struggle - trying to drag my fingers away from this
> keyboard - but they are to strong for me) I cannot resist one last dig -
in a
> recent post from Tiffany I note that Sage herself was wise and perceptive
enough
> to realise that her father's family might "freaking out" due to grief.
>

By freak out, she meant break down and cry like mad. They did.

T

[lm]

On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:57:20 +1000, quietguy
> wrote:

>
>
>Paul Fritz wrote:
>
>> ....
>>
>> Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your sleeve.....what a mar00n
>
> Hi Paul
>
>Actually it is still only autumn here so I have to carry my hypocrisy in my
>shorts pocket these days - but please let me know what a mar00n is in the US -
>here in Oz it is a colour - sort of dark red, or a lolly, sort of like a
>Cherry Ripe.
>
>Cheers and good wishes

Hi David. Butting in here just to say I'm glad to see you're from Oz.
I'm no longer a single mum thanks to a compatriot of yours. He made
the move over the great big pond to hang with us here in the U.S.

Oz is a lot more civilized to its single parents than the U.S. is.

lm

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 3 May 2004 16:03:25 -0400, "P.Fritz"
> >
> >
> ><'Kate> wrote in message
...
> >> On Mon, 3 May 2004 09:53:37 -0400, "P.Fritz"
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Joelle" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> >Having read some of Kate's previous posts I (apparently
incorrectly)
> >> >assumed
> >> >> >she
> >> >> >was professionally qualified - here in Oz you wouldn't be
accepted
> >into a
> >> >> >(legitimate) family therapy program without professional
> >qualifications
> >> >in
> >> >>
> >> >> Okay, this isn't Oz, and you don't have to be professionally
qualified
> >to
> >> >give
> >> >> advice, you say you understand that, but you don't seem to.
> >> >>
> >> >> >and then people make up
> >> >> >> their own minds.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> It seems that this only applies to Kate though - when I expressed
my
> >> >opinion
> >> >> >about
> >> >> >Kate's post I was attacked and criticised. And rather than
dispute my
> >> >views
> >> >> with
> >> >> >legitimate debate and discussion, the attacks were personal.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Because YOU made it personal. Instead of simply disagreeing with
her
> >> >advice
> >> >> you made it abotu Kate. Now you are unhappy because it turned
> >personal?
> >> >You
> >> >> thought you could turn this to be about Kate and it wouldn't come
back
> >to
> >> >bite
> >> >> you on the butt?
> >> >
> >> >And then, when challenged, he resorted to personal attacks himself.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> You may be some great therapist and father,
> >> >
> >> >doubtful from the way he handled himself here.
> >> >
> >> >>but just from how you handled
> >> >> yourself here, you seem kind of clueless to me.
> >> >
> >> >Agreed.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> Joelle
> >> >> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one
page - St
> >> >> Augustine
> >> >> Joelle
> >>
> >> I learn so much by being here. You guys really know how to break down
a
> >> problem into its parts. Thank you!
> >>
> >> 'Kate
> >
> >Let's just say the B.S. detecto started sounding it's alarm.
>
> My alarm is going off for an entirely different reason. I did the math
> on 40 years of parenting.

I thought about responding to that.....but it would have been like
shooting fish in a barrel


>
> 'Kate
>

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 May 2004 08:30:33 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >
> >
> >Paul Fritz wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Your 'ad hom' attack is duly noted as a lack of any real
> >> rebuttal.........is that how you practiced your 'social work' as well
> >>
> >
> >Gee Paul Fritz, you silly sausage (pun intended) you have me there
mate,
> >though I would much rather argue with you in English - please translate
what
> >'ad hom' means so I can make some scathing reply
> >
> >David - who is still wondering what a marOON is
>
> ad hom is shortened Latin for a logic fallacy that results when one
> attacks the person rather than the argument, the circumstances rather
> than the argument, or a "me too" type of rebuttal. The full latin term
> is Ad hominem.

Joelle was right.....he really is clueless.

>
> Mar00n is different.
>
> 'Kate
>

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 May 2004 08:15:47 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >Joelle, I have always thought I had a fairly good command of language -
here is a
> >copy of my original post -
> >
> >> Kate, having read a few of your posts I have thought in the past that
you were a
> >
> >> sensitive and caring person
> >
> >This part IS personal, but is my recognition of her sensitivity and
caring nature
> >- is it bad to say I respect what she writes?
> >
> >> - but your thoughts below I find almost unbelievable
> >
> >You think that is nasty? A personal attack?
> >
> >> - SEND HER? SEND HER? Wheew hard to believe you really said that
Kate.
> >
> >You think that is nasty? A personal attack? It simply reflects my
astonishment at
> >her suggestion - not nasty at all.
> >
> >
> >> Geez, if it was ever a time when Sage needed her mum with her it is
now. I hope
> >
> >> her mum ignores that advice of yours, and if Sage wants to attend
then mum
> >> should TAKE her - to be with her, care for her, listen to her.
> >
> >Here I offer an alternative opinion
> >
> >Perhaps you might compare my posts and responses with those of that
Paul kid (yep
> >I was NASTY and personal back to him - I don't suffer abusive fools
lightly, but
> >happily accept (and debate) courteous criticism)
> >
> >David
>
> You missed the part where I said if there is no other way.

He's missed a lot, like when he said he was done with this thread a day
our so ago......just a hypocritical windbag.

> The emphasis
> was on getting her there at that point. Out of context, it appears as
> if I said "oh, just send her.. it's nothing." It's not nothing. But it
> is very important that she be able to say goodbye and have that time
> with her father's family.
>
>
> 'Kate
>

[Paul Fritz]

"lm" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:57:20 +1000, quietguy
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Paul Fritz wrote:
> >
> >> ....
> >>
> >> Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your sleeve.....what a
mar00n
> >
> > Hi Paul
> >
> >Actually it is still only autumn here so I have to carry my hypocrisy
in my
> >shorts pocket these days - but please let me know what a mar00n is in
the US -
> >here in Oz it is a colour - sort of dark red, or a lolly, sort of like
a
> >Cherry Ripe.
> >
> >Cheers and good wishes
>
> Hi David. Butting in here just to say I'm glad to see you're from Oz.
> I'm no longer a single mum thanks to a compatriot of yours. He made
> the move over the great big pond to hang with us here in the U.S.
>
> Oz is a lot more civilized to its single parents than the U.S. is.
>
> lm

Civilized????? the correct word would be socialist.

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:47:30 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >
> >
> >'Kate wrote:
> >
> >> I absolutely disagree that money doesn't matter even when someone
dies.
> >> I know that I can conceptualize having to make decisions that are
less
> >> than optimal for individuals in the family because money is tight...
or
> >> not available. You surprise me when you don't consider it especially
> >> because of your background. Social work is usually more considerate
of
> >> the types of problems imposed by society on the poor.
> >
> >Hi Kate
> >
> >Am I having trouble with my memory or reading? I really cannot recall
saying
> >anything that resembles money does not matter - and as someone who had
to work
> >three jobs to meet mortgage payments when my (4) kids were young, I
think I do
> >understand what it means to be short of money - tho I was never REALLY
poor in the
> >context of no food etc.
>
> Then I clearly don't understand why we're not understanding each other.

<snicker> reading comprehension is obviously not one of his strong
points, and which I pointed out, to which he stomped his feet and whined
about being personally attacked, and then proceeded to personally attack
anyone who disagreed with his '20+ years" or ""expertise" yet offered no
rebuttal except his "20+ years" of ""expertise"" <snicker> and now we are
supposed to bow to his ""expertise" because he had to work three
jobs.............I wonder if he deducted all that time working from his
supposed '40+' years of 'parenting' The brown stuff just keeps getting
piled higher and higher.

> Perhaps it's a cultural difference. I said, If there was no other way
> and she wanted to go to the funeral, send her. Of course if there's a
> way for the mother to be there it is much better but rather than resent
> her mother for being unable to provide for a basic human need, being
> present at the funeral.
>
>
> >> And this disagreement is because of a pattern that is developing. I
> >> answer a post, you reply picking up one little thing.
> >
> >Perhaps Kate that is because usually you only say one little thing that
seems to
> >me to require a reply - as I have said in previous posts your advice is
(in my
> >view) usually spot on - so I cannot in fairness dismiss the totality of
what you
> >say.
>
> I'd considered that.
>
> >> What I take issue with is how you
> >> do it... as if to say, "Are you nuts?"
> >
> >When I made my first post about your suggestion that Sage go to the
funeral alone,
> >that IS what I was saying - However, I was trying to be polite and
attack the
> >statement, not you personally.
>
> That's contradictory.

Nothing new for him.......

>
> >What struck me then was that idea seemed so out of
> >context to the other good stuff you had been posting. What I regret is
that you
> >and everyone else have honed in on my view of that statement, without
> >acknowledging, or apparently even reading, my accompanying comment
about the high
> >quality of your other posts.
>
> I understand that you felt I was someone other than just another mother.
> I'm not here doing a job... I post as a mother. That statement was
> honed in on in the same way that you honed in on my statement.
>
> >> Frankly, I probably am nuts but
> >> that has nothing to do with it. :-)
> >>
> >> I wish you'd contribute more than just critiquing my posts.
> >>
> >
> >Fair enough - this is my last 'nasty' post to you.
> >
> >Cheers and good wishes
> >
> >David
> >
> >PS No wait - (struggle struggle - trying to drag my fingers away from
this
> >keyboard - but they are to strong for me) I cannot resist one last
dig - in a
> >recent post from Tiffany I note that Sage herself was wise and
perceptive enough
> >to realise that her father's family might "freaking out" due to grief.
>
> What would have done the greater harm? Denying the child the right to
> say goodbye to her father or providing a less than optimal way for that
> to happen?
>
> 'Kate
>

[Joelle]

>I have thought in the past that you were
>> sensitive and caring person
>
>This part IS personal, but is my recognition of her sensitivity and caring
>nature
>- is it bad to say I respect what she writes?

Yarite. The implication is "I *thought* you were a sensative person but I can
now see that because of this stupid advice, you clearly are not"

My whole question, which you've been unable to answer, is why talk about Kate
at all?

>You think that is nasty? A personal attack?
a

I know you are proud of your command of the language, perhaps next you'd like
to work on your reading skills, I said nothing about nasty, I said, you made it
personal. You can't deny that, you have not addressed the issue of why were you
making this about Kate? And once you make something personal, it escalates, it
turns the argument into a personal one and I was just observing how ridiculis
it was for you to complain about the debate turning personal when YOU are the
one that made it so.

I'm finished here. I don't care. Kate can take care of herself, I just found
it odd that you seemed more interested in Kate than in helping the OP. But
that's your issue. Not Kate's. Not mine. Certainly not Tiffany's. Whatever.

Joelle

The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 3 May 2004 23:54:30 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> >
> >
> > <'Kate> wrote in message
> ...
> > > On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:47:30 +1000, quietguy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >'Kate wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I absolutely disagree that money doesn't matter even when
someone
> >dies.
> > > >> I know that I can conceptualize having to make decisions that
are
> >less
> > > >> than optimal for individuals in the family because money is
tight...
> >or
> > > >> not available. You surprise me when you don't consider it
especially
> > > >> because of your background. Social work is usually more
considerate
> >of
> > > >> the types of problems imposed by society on the poor.
> > > >
> > > >Hi Kate
> > > >
> > > >Am I having trouble with my memory or reading? I really cannot
recall
> >saying
> > > >anything that resembles money does not matter - and as someone who
had
> >to work
> > > >three jobs to meet mortgage payments when my (4) kids were young,
I
> >think I do
> > > >understand what it means to be short of money - tho I was never
REALLY
> >poor in the
> > > >context of no food etc.
> > >
> > > Then I clearly don't understand why we're not understanding each
other.
> >
> > <snicker> reading comprehension is obviously not one of his strong
> >points, and which I pointed out, to which he stomped his feet and
whined
> >about being personally attacked, and then proceeded to personally
attack
> >anyone who disagreed with his '20+ years" or ""expertise" yet offered
no
> >rebuttal except his "20+ years" of ""expertise"" <snicker> and now
we are
> >supposed to bow to his ""expertise" because he had to work three
> >jobs.............I wonder if he deducted all that time working from his
> >supposed '40+' years of 'parenting' The brown stuff just keeps
getting
> >piled higher and higher.
>
> I'm wondering why he's reading this particular group. It's me, isn't
> it? I'm doing that attracting thing again. <wink>

Definitely.............I wonder if his (very) lame smarmy snarky put downs
worked in his 'social work' It obviously allowed him to feel superior to
all those know nothings that couldn't compare to him......Bet he really gets
his rocks off calling people 'silly sausages' He's played so many 'cards'
trying to cover his tracks........soooooooooooo transparent. LOL

>
> 'Kate
>

[quietguy]

Kate, in my view the greater risk of harm to Sage would have been for her to be at the
funeral by herself. As a parent, if there was no way I could go with her, then I
would make the hard decision to keep her with me and we would have a private service
at home.

Of course I wouldn't have given Tiffany advice, other than to carefully consider all
the pros and cons, and just worked through all the options with her.

David

'Kate wrote:

>
> What would have done the greater harm? Denying the child the right to
> say goodbye to her father or providing a less than optimal way for that
> to happen?
>
> 'Kate

[quietguy]

Paul Fritz wrote: a whole lot of stuff that his mum might spank him for if she
read it

David - who likes to be nice, and hasn't been nasty to anyone but Paul

[quietguy]

Damn, you Kate - you are so perceptive. And I thought I was covering up so well.

David - who thinks Kate is really charming, and wishes he was young enough to
deserve one of those cute winks.

'Kate wrote

>
> I'm wondering why he's reading this particular group. It's me, isn't
> it? I'm doing that attracting thing again. <wink>
>
> 'Kate

[quietguy]

Ahhh - confessing at last Paul - goodonyamate - its good for the soul

David - who enjoys a bit of cut and thrust at times, but usually has no malice
towards anyone (even Paul)

Paul Fritz wrote:

> all those know nothings that couldn't compare to him......
>

[quietguy]

Hi Im

I am always interested in how things differ in other countries. we whinge a lot
here, but in reality some of us get a pretty good deal. While I am technically
still a single parent, my kids are all grown up (sad sad). But for the past nine
years or so I have been involved in the single parent scene - mostly thru my work
as a therapist, and thru a support group I started for partners and children of
prisoners.

I find it hard to work out the social service system that exists in the US tho -
in other groups I find people who say they can't afford medical treatment, then
others say there are free clinics. Some people seem to get unemployment benefits
- others say the cannot get them. Beats me, but I am interested if any of the
group are willing to fill me in.

cheers and good wishes - hope your Ozzie partner is enjoying the change and things
are working out as you both hoped.

David

lm wrote:

>
> Hi David. Butting in here just to say I'm glad to see you're from Oz.
> I'm no longer a single mum thanks to a compatriot of yours. He made
> the move over the great big pond to hang with us here in the U.S.
>
> Oz is a lot more civilized to its single parents than the U.S. is.
>
> lm

[quietguy]

Ahh Kate - I was married at 21, three kids by the time I was 23, and I just had
my 60th birthday. So your alarm is right on, I fudged a little there as it has
been only 39 years - my apologies - I am much better at Social Work than maths
:-)

David

PS I was a late starter and undertook my Social Work training from 1978-81

'Kate wrote:

>
> My alarm is going off for an entirely different reason. I did the math
> on 40 years of parenting.
>
> 'Kate

[Tiffany]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
> Kate, in my view the greater risk of harm to Sage would have been for her
to be at the
> funeral by herself. As a parent, if there was no way I could go with her,
then I
> would make the hard decision to keep her with me and we would have a
private service
> at home.
>
> Of course I wouldn't have given Tiffany advice, other than to carefully
consider all
> the pros and cons, and just worked through all the options with her.
>
> David
>


Oh no...... for her to miss that funeral would have been like missing a
major grieving process and saying goodbye. You don't know the whole story,
nor do I feel like telling it right now but she needed to be with his
family. My feelings for him are long gone and I was not able to cry with her
and I know no matter how hard I tried, she could sense my indifference (at
least at the very beginning). I spoke with her about it, briefly so she
could understand. So if she wasn't up there with his family, she would have
never got all that out. Not to mention all the love of being with everyone.
I really could have sent her up there..... as I mentioned before, I was
pretty much just sitting aside, waiting. I am glad I was there with her
though but her not being there would never been an option. Trust me, they
had her in their arms the whole time. Now it is my turn, for the rest of her
life, every day.

T

[Paul Fritz]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
>
> "quietguy" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Kate, in my view the greater risk of harm to Sage would have been for
her
> to be at the
> > funeral by herself. As a parent, if there was no way I could go with
her,
> then I
> > would make the hard decision to keep her with me and we would have a
> private service
> > at home.
> >
> > Of course I wouldn't have given Tiffany advice, other than to
carefully
> consider all
> > the pros and cons, and just worked through all the options with her.
> >
> > David
> >
>
>
> Oh no...... for her to miss that funeral would have been like missing a
> major grieving process and saying goodbye. You don't know the whole
story,
> nor do I feel like telling it right now but she needed to be with his
> family. My feelings for him are long gone and I was not able to cry with
her
> and I know no matter how hard I tried, she could sense my indifference
(at
> least at the very beginning). I spoke with her about it, briefly so she
> could understand. So if she wasn't up there with his family, she would
have
> never got all that out. Not to mention all the love of being with
everyone.
> I really could have sent her up there..... as I mentioned before, I was
> pretty much just sitting aside, waiting. I am glad I was there with her
> though but her not being there would never been an option. Trust me,
they
> had her in their arms the whole time. Now it is my turn, for the rest of
her
> life, every day.

You did the right thing, and sending her alone would have been the next
best, To keep her from it had you not be able to go, as the OP suggested,
would have been a purely selfish act that would have come back to bite you
later down the road.


>
> T
>
>

[lm]

On Mon, 3 May 2004 23:28:41 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> wrote:

>
> "lm" > wrote in message
...
> > On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:57:20 +1000, quietguy
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Paul Fritz wrote:
> > >
> > >> ....
> > >>
> > >> Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your sleeve.....what a
>mar00n
> > >
> > > Hi Paul
> > >
> > >Actually it is still only autumn here so I have to carry my hypocrisy
>in my
> > >shorts pocket these days - but please let me know what a mar00n is in
>the US -
> > >here in Oz it is a colour - sort of dark red, or a lolly, sort of like
>a
> > >Cherry Ripe.
> > >
> > >Cheers and good wishes
> >
> > Hi David. Butting in here just to say I'm glad to see you're from Oz.
> > I'm no longer a single mum thanks to a compatriot of yours. He made
> > the move over the great big pond to hang with us here in the U.S.
> >
> > Oz is a lot more civilized to its single parents than the U.S. is.
> >
> > lm
>
> Civilized????? the correct word would be socialist.

Australia is capitalist, but their social services are not yet so
draconian as ours. They're on their way though. They do have medical
coverage for all, but that's on its way out too. Hopefully it's on its
way in, here.

lm
>
>
>

[Paul Fritz]

"lm" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 3 May 2004 23:28:41 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> > "lm" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:57:20 +1000, quietguy
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Paul Fritz wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> ....
> > > >>
> > > >> Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your sleeve.....what a
> >mar00n
> > > >
> > > > Hi Paul
> > > >
> > > >Actually it is still only autumn here so I have to carry my
hypocrisy
> >in my
> > > >shorts pocket these days - but please let me know what a mar00n is
in
> >the US -
> > > >here in Oz it is a colour - sort of dark red, or a lolly, sort of
like
> >a
> > > >Cherry Ripe.
> > > >
> > > >Cheers and good wishes
> > >
> > > Hi David. Butting in here just to say I'm glad to see you're from
Oz.
> > > I'm no longer a single mum thanks to a compatriot of yours. He made
> > > the move over the great big pond to hang with us here in the U.S.
> > >
> > > Oz is a lot more civilized to its single parents than the U.S. is.
> > >
> > > lm
> >
> > Civilized????? the correct word would be socialist.
>
> Australia is capitalist, but their social services are not yet so
> draconian as ours. They're on their way though. They do have medical
> coverage for all, but that's on its way out too. Hopefully it's on its
> way in, here.

Australia, from every report I have seen, is far more socialist than the
states, and if you are infering that providing greater amounts of social
services is less 'draconian' it is more socialist. Medical coverage for
all? how much more down the socialist path do you wnat to go?

Besides the fact that fed guvmint has absolutely no constitutional
authority to provide health coverage (let alone the social security BS)
guvmint run health care would absolutely destroy the health care system in
this country. People are not static, they change when new rules/roadblocks
are put in place.......guvmint health care is just like raising the minimum
wage or campaign finance reform, it looks great on paper, but the unintended
and unforseen consequences are far worse.

>
> lm
> >
> >
> >
>

[Nick]

"Paul (Grizzly) Fritz" wrote ...

>
> Australia, from every report I have seen, is far more socialist than the
> states, and if you are infering that providing greater amounts of social
> services is less 'draconian' it is more socialist. Medical coverage for
> all? how much more down the socialist path do you wnat to go?
>

Does it get in that Cabin at nights? ;-)

n

.... those pesky Guvmint Varmints wont get no taxes from me, No sirreeeee...

[Nick]

"Paul Fritz" wrote ...

>
> Australia, from every report I have seen, is far more socialist than the
> states, and if you are infering that providing greater amounts of social
> services is less 'draconian' it is more socialist. Medical coverage for
> all? how much more down the socialist path do you wnat to go?
>

Does it get cold in that Cabin at nights? ;-)

n

.... those pesky Guvmint Varmints wont get no taxes from me, No sirreeeee...

[CME]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Paul Fritz wrote:
>
> >
> > Your 'ad hom' attack is duly noted as a lack of any real
> > rebuttal.........is that how you practiced your 'social work' as well
> >
>
> Gee Paul Fritz, you silly sausage (pun intended) you have me there mate,
> though I would much rather argue with you in English - please translate
what
> 'ad hom' means so I can make some scathing reply
>
> David - who is still wondering what a marOON is
>

Pssst it's from Bugs Bunny. And by looking at the ng this morning I'm
hearing good ol bugs in my head right at this moment with.... "This...
means... waaar", or perhaps good ol' Elmer Fudd with "A hunting we will
go...". lol

Christine

[Lisa]

"Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "lm" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Mon, 3 May 2004 23:28:41 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > "lm" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > > On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:57:20 +1000, quietguy
> > > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Paul Fritz wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> ....
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your sleeve.....what
a
> > >mar00n
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Paul
> > > > >
> > > > >Actually it is still only autumn here so I have to carry my
> hypocrisy
> > >in my
> > > > >shorts pocket these days - but please let me know what a mar00n
is
> in
> > >the US -
> > > > >here in Oz it is a colour - sort of dark red, or a lolly, sort
of
> like
> > >a
> > > > >Cherry Ripe.
> > > > >
> > > > >Cheers and good wishes
> > > >
> > > > Hi David. Butting in here just to say I'm glad to see you're from
> Oz.
> > > > I'm no longer a single mum thanks to a compatriot of yours. He
made
> > > > the move over the great big pond to hang with us here in the U.S.
> > > >
> > > > Oz is a lot more civilized to its single parents than the U.S.
is.
> > > >
> > > > lm
> > >
> > > Civilized????? the correct word would be socialist.
> >
> > Australia is capitalist, but their social services are not yet so
> > draconian as ours. They're on their way though. They do have medical
> > coverage for all, but that's on its way out too. Hopefully it's on its
> > way in, here.
>
> Australia, from every report I have seen, is far more socialist than the
> states, and if you are infering that providing greater amounts of social
> services is less 'draconian' it is more socialist. Medical coverage for
> all? how much more down the socialist path do you wnat to go?
>
> Besides the fact that fed guvmint has absolutely no constitutional
> authority to provide health coverage (let alone the social security BS)
> guvmint run health care would absolutely destroy the health care system in
> this country. People are not static, they change when new rules/roadblocks
> are put in place.......guvmint health care is just like raising the
minimum
> wage or campaign finance reform, it looks great on paper, but the
unintended
> and unforseen consequences are far worse.
>
> >


Really Paul? Funny how so many Americans look at the Canadian health care
system and think that it's great. Socialism? I think not.

[P.Fritz]

"Lisa" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Paul Fritz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "lm" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Mon, 3 May 2004 23:28:41 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> > > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "lm" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > > On Tue, 04 May 2004 07:57:20 +1000, quietguy
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Paul Fritz wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> ....
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Nothing like wearing your hypocrisy on your
sleeve.....what
> a
> > > >mar00n
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Paul
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Actually it is still only autumn here so I have to carry my
> > hypocrisy
> > > >in my
> > > > > >shorts pocket these days - but please let me know what a
mar00n
> is
> > in
> > > >the US -
> > > > > >here in Oz it is a colour - sort of dark red, or a lolly, sort
> of
> > like
> > > >a
> > > > > >Cherry Ripe.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Cheers and good wishes
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi David. Butting in here just to say I'm glad to see you're
from
> > Oz.
> > > > > I'm no longer a single mum thanks to a compatriot of yours. He
> made
> > > > > the move over the great big pond to hang with us here in the
U.S.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oz is a lot more civilized to its single parents than the U.S.
> is.
> > > > >
> > > > > lm
> > > >
> > > > Civilized????? the correct word would be socialist.
> > >
> > > Australia is capitalist, but their social services are not yet so
> > > draconian as ours. They're on their way though. They do have medical
> > > coverage for all, but that's on its way out too. Hopefully it's on
its
> > > way in, here.
> >
> > Australia, from every report I have seen, is far more socialist than
the
> > states, and if you are infering that providing greater amounts of social
> > services is less 'draconian' it is more socialist. Medical coverage for
> > all? how much more down the socialist path do you wnat to go?
> >
> > Besides the fact that fed guvmint has absolutely no constitutional
> > authority to provide health coverage (let alone the social security BS)
> > guvmint run health care would absolutely destroy the health care system
in
> > this country. People are not static, they change when new
rules/roadblocks
> > are put in place.......guvmint health care is just like raising the
> minimum
> > wage or campaign finance reform, it looks great on paper, but the
> unintended
> > and unforseen consequences are far worse.
> >
> > >
>
>
> Really Paul? Funny how so many Americans look at the Canadian health care
> system and think that it's great. Socialism? I think not.

The uniformed ones may. but the informed ones (typically those that don't
think guvmint is there to solve all their problems) think it is horrible.
It is socialism

socialism - "Any of various theories or systems of social organization in
which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or
by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy."

Canadian health care is a socialist system whether you like it or not


BTW, I have yet to meet a canadian doctor (and I have met plenty) that would
not love to practice in the U.S. and not be subject to the guvmint controls
they work under.


>

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:52:28 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >Ahh Kate - I was married at 21, three kids by the time I was 23, and I
just had
> >my 60th birthday. So your alarm is right on, I fudged a little there
as it has
> >been only 39 years - my apologies - I am much better at Social Work
than maths
> >:-)
> >
> >David
> >
> >PS I was a late starter and undertook my Social Work training from
1978-81
>
> ROFL... ooookay. I was spot on at guesstimating your age.. not that it
> matters. Actually, it does. Why *are* you hanging out in this group?
> Slumming? Can't resist the plight of the single mom? Have one of us in
> your own family? Come to see what it's all about? We have a wonderful
> group of abnormally successful single parents here. Using them as the
> mean for the single parent group would not give a true picture.
>
> 'Kate
>

If he is still 'parenting' as opposed to being a parent when the kids are
now middle aged adults, then he has done a **** poor job

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 4 May 2004 00:51:10 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> >
> <snip>
>
> > Definitely.............I wonder if his (very) lame smarmy snarky put
downs
> >worked in his 'social work' It obviously allowed him to feel superior
to
> >all those know nothings that couldn't compare to him......Bet he really
gets
> >his rocks off calling people 'silly sausages' He's played so many
'cards'
> >trying to cover his tracks........soooooooooooo transparent. LOL
>
> I had a teacher last year who was brilliant. He continues his family
> practice whilst teaching. I took him for abnormal psych. He showed
> movies of therapy sessions with families. It never hit me until that
> point that dysfunctional families are not all that different from
> functional families. The only difference is in degree. Any family can
> get "out of wack". There are reasons why teens choose to act out and
> it's usually a call for help. It's not so hard to imagine that little
> things become big things over time... and it can happen in any family.
> It's not a matter of pounding one person in the family back in line..
> that one person is poking up because the others are squeezing him/her.
> It's not a shameful thing.. it's something that happens. Hmm... I've
> picked up a habit of talking in metaphors.

And generalities, which in this case tend to be meaningless. :-)

>
> 'Kate
>

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 4 May 2004 22:47:53 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> >
> >
> > <'Kate> wrote in message
> ...
> > > On Tue, 4 May 2004 00:51:10 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > Definitely.............I wonder if his (very) lame smarmy snarky
put
> >downs
> > > >worked in his 'social work' It obviously allowed him to feel
superior
> >to
> > > >all those know nothings that couldn't compare to him......Bet he
really
> >gets
> > > >his rocks off calling people 'silly sausages' He's played so many
> >'cards'
> > > >trying to cover his tracks........soooooooooooo transparent. LOL
> > >
> > > I had a teacher last year who was brilliant. He continues his
family
> > > practice whilst teaching. I took him for abnormal psych. He showed
> > > movies of therapy sessions with families. It never hit me until
that
> > > point that dysfunctional families are not all that different from
> > > functional families. The only difference is in degree. Any family
can
> > > get "out of wack". There are reasons why teens choose to act out
and
> > > it's usually a call for help. It's not so hard to imagine that
little
> > > things become big things over time... and it can happen in any
family.
> > > It's not a matter of pounding one person in the family back in
line..
> > > that one person is poking up because the others are squeezing
him/her.
> > > It's not a shameful thing.. it's something that happens. Hmm...
I've
> > > picked up a habit of talking in metaphors.
> >
> > And generalities, which in this case tend to be meaningless. :-)
>
> I was just rambling.

Nooooooooo :-)

>Must have needed a good memory. I have the great
> fortune to be taking a grad class from him this summer and I'm so
> looking forward to it.

Summer school......now there were fond memories......NOT

>
> 'Kate
>

[Paul Fritz]

<'Kate> wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 4 May 2004 23:19:11 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> >
>
> > > I was just rambling.
> >
> > Nooooooooo :-)
>
> LOL.
>
> > >Must have needed a good memory. I have the great
> > > fortune to be taking a grad class from him this summer and I'm so
> > > looking forward to it.
> >
> > Summer school......now there were fond memories......NOT
>
> Well... hang tight 'cause my kids are volunteering for it.

I was talking college :-)

>Mike has one
> summer class (P.E.) so that he can be a senior next year and walk with
> the class of '05. Lisa is entering HS and wants to take sports medicine
> during the summer so that she can help wrap HS football player's ankles
> in the fall. Yeah.. I see the motivation there. I have to cough up the
> $240.

My little brother did that to (well he had to hanf around becaus eI was at
practice anyway.....almost got a college scholarship to do it at that level.


>
> 'Kate
>

[lm]

On Tue, 4 May 2004 22:47:53 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> wrote:

>
> <'Kate> wrote in message
...
> > On Tue, 4 May 2004 00:51:10 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> > >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Definitely.............I wonder if his (very) lame smarmy snarky put
>downs
> > >worked in his 'social work' It obviously allowed him to feel superior
>to
> > >all those know nothings that couldn't compare to him......Bet he really
>gets
> > >his rocks off calling people 'silly sausages' He's played so many
>'cards'
> > >trying to cover his tracks........soooooooooooo transparent. LOL
> >
> > I had a teacher last year who was brilliant. He continues his family
> > practice whilst teaching. I took him for abnormal psych. He showed
> > movies of therapy sessions with families. It never hit me until that
> > point that dysfunctional families are not all that different from
> > functional families. The only difference is in degree. Any family can
> > get "out of wack". There are reasons why teens choose to act out and
> > it's usually a call for help. It's not so hard to imagine that little
> > things become big things over time... and it can happen in any family.
> > It's not a matter of pounding one person in the family back in line..
> > that one person is poking up because the others are squeezing him/her.
> > It's not a shameful thing.. it's something that happens. Hmm... I've
> > picked up a habit of talking in metaphors.
>
> And generalities, which in this case tend to be meaningless. :-)

All generalities are meaningless. :-)

lm

[lm]

On Tue, 4 May 2004 22:44:14 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> wrote:

>
> <'Kate> wrote in message
...
> > On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:52:28 +1000, quietguy
> > >
> > >Ahh Kate - I was married at 21, three kids by the time I was 23, and I
>just had
> > >my 60th birthday. So your alarm is right on, I fudged a little there
>as it has
> > >been only 39 years - my apologies - I am much better at Social Work
>than maths
> > >:-)
> > >
> > >David
> > >
> > >PS I was a late starter and undertook my Social Work training from
>1978-81
> >
> > ROFL... ooookay. I was spot on at guesstimating your age.. not that it
> > matters. Actually, it does. Why *are* you hanging out in this group?
> > Slumming? Can't resist the plight of the single mom? Have one of us in
> > your own family? Come to see what it's all about? We have a wonderful
> > group of abnormally successful single parents here. Using them as the
> > mean for the single parent group would not give a true picture.
> >
> > 'Kate
> >
>
> If he is still 'parenting' as opposed to being a parent when the kids are
>now middle aged adults, then he has done a **** poor job

You won't let this one rest, will you?

lm

[P.Fritz]

"lm" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 4 May 2004 22:44:14 -0400, "Paul Fritz"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> > <'Kate> wrote in message
> ...
> > > On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:52:28 +1000, quietguy
> > > >
> > > >Ahh Kate - I was married at 21, three kids by the time I was 23, and
I
> >just had
> > > >my 60th birthday. So your alarm is right on, I fudged a little
there
> >as it has
> > > >been only 39 years - my apologies - I am much better at Social Work
> >than maths
> > > >:-)
> > > >
> > > >David
> > > >
> > > >PS I was a late starter and undertook my Social Work training from
> >1978-81
> > >
> > > ROFL... ooookay. I was spot on at guesstimating your age.. not that
it
> > > matters. Actually, it does. Why *are* you hanging out in this group?
> > > Slumming? Can't resist the plight of the single mom? Have one of us
in
> > > your own family? Come to see what it's all about? We have a
wonderful
> > > group of abnormally successful single parents here. Using them as
the
> > > mean for the single parent group would not give a true picture.
> > >
> > > 'Kate
> > >
> >
> > If he is still 'parenting' as opposed to being a parent when the kids
are
> >now middle aged adults, then he has done a **** poor job
>
> You won't let this one rest, will you?

LMAO

>
> lm

[quietguy]

OK Kate

You got me... trying to work out what a GU is?

Goddam Ugly? Maybe
Good Ummm? (can't quite think what to call him)
Grown Up? Nah, not yet, maybe some day
Going Under? Yep, but struggling

Gee, gunna have to go thru the dictionary I reckon

Cheers

David - who thinks Kate is a BS (but think Aussie, not something nasty)


'Kate wrote:

> On Tue, 04 May 2004 15:26:16 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >Damn, you Kate - you are so perceptive. And I thought I was covering up so well.
> >
> >David - who thinks Kate is really charming, and wishes he was young enough to
> >deserve one of those cute winks.
>
> Ah, ya found my weak spot. And I thought I covered well. Too darn bad
> you're GU.
>
> 'Kate

[quietguy]

Hi Im

lm wrote:

> Australia is capitalist,

I sort of agree with you there Im, we are sort of like a Capitalist that cares
- I think.


> but their social services are not yet so
> draconian as ours.

Some are and some aren't - I think bureauracrats (must buy another dictionary)
are probbly much the same in all countries - here in NSW, where I live we have
a terrible Child Protection Department (DOCS, corrupt and unprofessional) a
Federal Social Service (Centrelink) that spans all states but is very poorly
managed etc, and has some draconian practices.

There is no signs at all so far that our free-to-all health system is on the
way out, but of course the quality varies greatly from place to place - at
present we are seeing some major problems of neglect etc in some of our
hospitals, but others are first class - I have had seven heart ops at one
hospital and always had first class treatment, and of course at no cost.

Mmm I sort of suspect the same may be the case elsewhere too.

Cheers

David

PS we also have private hospitals too,

[quietguy]

Hi Kate

'Kate wrote

> Actually, it does. Why *are* you hanging out in this group?
> Slumming?

Due to crook heart etc had to retire from work, and am currently on a disability
allowance - so like to keep (mentally) active - I do lots of pro-bono work and am
in the process (if my latest heart op is successful) of setting up an online
counselling service. Started last year but heart attacks etc slowed things down.
Hope to get back to it soon and complete the site
(www.confidential-counselling.com)

I also have a soft sport for sole parents too I guess - apart from my professional
interests, I was a sole parent myself from about 1976 to 1985 -and was very active
in the Parents Without Partners organisation etc, and most of the friends I made in
that period were sole parents.

> Can't resist the plight of the single mom? Have one of us in
> your own family? Come to see what it's all about? We have a wonderful
> group of abnormally successful single parents here. Using them as the
> mean for the single parent group would not give a true picture.
>
> 'Kate

David

[quietguy]

Hi Im

Actually I think I might let that one go Im - I did have fun baiting Paul, but
am getting bored with it now.

David - who wonders if they have Fritz sausage in the US?

PS. Gee Paul - wish I was able to think of the sort of things you like to say.
I'll bet your dog doesn't have much trouble teaching you new tricks.

lm wrote:

> Paul wrote..
> > If he is still 'parenting' as opposed to being a parent when the kids are
> >now middle aged adults, then he has done a **** poor job
>
> You won't let this one rest, will you?
>
> lm

PSS That wasn't that good was it Im?

[quietguy]

Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David and
Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.

David

[lm]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:17:48 +1000, quietguy
> wrote:

>
>Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David and
>Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.
>
>David

You're asking two questions -- are we bored with the David and Paul
thing (yes) and are we bored with you (no).

lm, speaking only for herself

[Cele]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 10:32:49 +1000, quietguy
> wrote:

>Hi Im
>
>lm wrote:
>
>> Australia is capitalist,
>
>I sort of agree with you there Im, we are sort of like a Capitalist that cares
>- I think.
>
>
>> but their social services are not yet so
>> draconian as ours.
>
>Some are and some aren't - I think bureauracrats (must buy another dictionary)
>are probbly much the same in all countries - here in NSW, where I live we have
>a terrible Child Protection Department (DOCS, corrupt and unprofessional) a
>Federal Social Service (Centrelink) that spans all states but is very poorly
>managed etc, and has some draconian practices.

Gotta love that TAFE setup, though. I was lucky enough to get a HECS
scholarship when I did my masters, and wow. It could make the
difference between being able to go to school, or not. In Canada, our
education is getting right out of control, cost wise. Although it's
worse still in the US, going on what information I've been able to
find.

>There is no signs at all so far that our free-to-all health system is on the
>way out, but of course the quality varies greatly from place to place - at
>present we are seeing some major problems of neglect etc in some of our
>hospitals, but others are first class - I have had seven heart ops at one
>hospital and always had first class treatment, and of course at no cost.

Shortly after I arrived in Oz (we're talking a couple of weeks), I got
a call from my doc in Canada that I was to get myself to a gyn, fast,
for assessment of a potentially cancerous cervix. Lucky for me, it was
only precancerous, but it was one of those things where you don't wait
about until you're back where you've got medical coverage. I therefore
entered into the Australian health care system, and was very
impressed. My surgery was covered by the Canadian medical I had, but
the gyn said to me, when I was trying to ask if we could do either
direct billing or wait for them to ante up for me to pay, that it
wasn't a big deal, because his "kids won't go hungry over one
operation anyway, so don't worry about it."

Of course, he got paid, but I couldn't believe what I was hearing,
when this lovely doctor was essentially saying he was going to do what
needed doing whether he got paid or not.

Also in Oz, my daughter was admitted to Royal Alexandra Children's in
Sydney for acute back pain that at first they thought was a spinal
tumour, but which eventually turned out to be a damaged disc. All of
her care there was covered by our Canadian insurance, which does cap
how much it'll pay. In other words, Aussie costs to the insured are
about the same as ours. And never once did anyone give me grief about
having to bill overseas.

>Mmm I sort of suspect the same may be the case elsewhere too.
>
>Cheers
>
>David
>
>PS we also have private hospitals too,

Yeah. T was in a public hospital, and my surgery was in a private one.
Here, they're trying to push for a similarly combined situation. We're
resisting hard, but I must say your system seemed awfully effective.

Take care.

Cele

[Cele]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:01:40 +1000, quietguy
> wrote:

>Hi Kate
>
>'Kate wrote
>
>> Actually, it does. Why *are* you hanging out in this group?
>> Slumming?
>
>Due to crook heart etc had to retire from work, and am currently on a disability
>allowance - so like to keep (mentally) active - I do lots of pro-bono work and am
>in the process (if my latest heart op is successful) of setting up an online
>counselling service. Started last year but heart attacks etc slowed things down.
>Hope to get back to it soon and complete the site
>(www.confidential-counselling.com)

Sorry to hear about your heart. That's rough. I hope your family is
supportive.

>I also have a soft sport for sole parents too I guess - apart from my professional
>interests, I was a sole parent myself from about 1976 to 1985 -and was very active
>in the Parents Without Partners organisation etc, and most of the friends I made in
>that period were sole parents.

My Mom started a chapter of PWP when I was a kid; it was great! We did
all these camping trips and family dances and hikes and activities. I
loved it. It was totally focused on the kids and I remember when my
father, who knew nothing about it, referred to it as "that lonely
hearts club your mother is involved with," being deeply offended.

When I became a single parent I tried to find PWP, but it seems to've
dwindled here a bit. Maybe because now, half the parents in the
country are single parenting, so they don't feel a need for a group to
find each other?

If I'd've found it, though, I'd've joined.

>> Can't resist the plight of the single mom? Have one of us in
>> your own family? Come to see what it's all about? We have a wonderful
>> group of abnormally successful single parents here. Using them as the
>> mean for the single parent group would not give a true picture.
>>
>> 'Kate
>
>David

Cele

[Cele]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:17:48 +1000, quietguy
> wrote:

>
>Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David and
>Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.
>
>David

I kind of like your posts. For what that's worth. Not that I post much
myself.

Cele

[Paul Fritz]

"lm" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:17:48 +1000, quietguy
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David
and
> >Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.
> >
> >David
>
> You're asking two questions -- are we bored with the David and Paul
> thing (yes) and are we bored with you (no).

Cripes he is self centered

>
> lm, speaking only for herself
>

[Lisa]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:01:40 +1000, quietguy
> >
> >Hi Kate
> >
> >'Kate wrote
> >
> >> Actually, it does. Why *are* you hanging out in this group?
> >> Slumming?
> >
> >Due to crook heart etc had to retire from work, and am currently on a
disability
> >allowance - so like to keep (mentally) active - I do lots of pro-bono
work and am
> >in the process (if my latest heart op is successful) of setting up an
online
> >counselling service. Started last year but heart attacks etc slowed
things down.
> >Hope to get back to it soon and complete the site
> >(www.confidential-counselling.com)
>
> Good for you! But sorry about the heart problems.
> Hey... got any job openings? <kidding>
>
> >I also have a soft sport for sole parents too I guess - apart from my
professional
> >interests, I was a sole parent myself from about 1976 to 1985 -and was
very active
> >in the Parents Without Partners organisation etc, and most of the friends
I made in
> >that period were sole parents.
>
> And you married again? Glutton for punishment, eh? (my apologies to
> those of you who are about to or have married again).
>
> 'Kate
>

No raining on my parade Kate!

Lisa

[Lisa]

<'Kate> wrote in message ...
> On Thu, 6 May 2004 08:20:13 -0400, "Lisa" >
> >
> ><'Kate> wrote in message
...
> >> On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:01:40 +1000, quietguy
> >> >
> >> >Hi Kate
> >> >
> >> >'Kate wrote
> >> >
> >> >> Actually, it does. Why *are* you hanging out in this group?
> >> >> Slumming?
> >> >
> >> >Due to crook heart etc had to retire from work, and am currently on a
> >disability
> >> >allowance - so like to keep (mentally) active - I do lots of pro-bono
> >work and am
> >> >in the process (if my latest heart op is successful) of setting up an
> >online
> >> >counselling service. Started last year but heart attacks etc slowed
> >things down.
> >> >Hope to get back to it soon and complete the site
> >> >(www.confidential-counselling.com)
> >>
> >> Good for you! But sorry about the heart problems.
> >> Hey... got any job openings? <kidding>
> >>
> >> >I also have a soft sport for sole parents too I guess - apart from my
> >professional
> >> >interests, I was a sole parent myself from about 1976 to 1985 -and was
> >very active
> >> >in the Parents Without Partners organisation etc, and most of the
friends
> >I made in
> >> >that period were sole parents.
> >>
> >> And you married again? Glutton for punishment, eh? (my apologies to
> >> those of you who are about to or have married again).
> >>
> >> 'Kate
> >>
> >
> >No raining on my parade Kate!
> >
> >Lisa
>
> I was thinking of you when I wrote that! So... remind me, when's the
> celebration?
>
> BTW I'm not terribly marriage-aversive... I'm just overly protective of
> my independence. I think it's just fine for other people.
>
> 'Kate
>

The wedding date is September 18th. Remember that day ages ago we were
chatting in IRC, I showed you where the reception was going to be? Well,
the ballroom is indeed booked, and it's going to be a lovely spot.

It will also be a special reunion, we haven't seen any of my mother's family
for at least 4 or 5 years. Everyone is quite excited.

Lisa

[quietguy]

Hi Cele

I agree it is a great concept, and if well run is a real source for networking and
having fun. The braches I was involved with in Sydney (no longer live there tho - I
escaped to paradise (well to me anyway) 12 years ago, had a range of activities - a
Sunday picnic which was especially good for weekend dads and for kids with no male
figures intheir life - Saturday night dances for the grownups, tennis etc, bus trips,
Christmas parties.

Other people often got the idea tho - maybe a bit like your dad - that it was a 'meat
market'.

cheers

David

[Heywood Floyd]

"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
> Hi Cele
>
> I agree it is a great concept, and if well run is a real source for
networking and
> having fun. The braches I was involved with in Sydney (no longer live
there tho - I
> escaped to paradise (well to me anyway) 12 years ago, had a range of
activities - a
> Sunday picnic which was especially good for weekend dads and for kids with
no male
> figures intheir life - Saturday night dances for the grownups, tennis etc,
bus trips,
> Christmas parties.
>
> Other people often got the idea tho - maybe a bit like your dad - that it
was a 'meat
> market'.
Meat market is not necessarily a bad thing... <eg>
Fortunately, at the beach where I live, there is a terrible shortage of
decent guys who have a drivers license, don't get stoned, are financially
secure and care about kids. I have three young lovelies in my sights. It's
been over a year since my wife died, so it's "Look out ladies!" This time
I'm gonna try for a younger woman; the last two were older than I. I'm
fighting that 3% chance of getting married after age 40 tooth and nail.
AAMOF, the gal across the street is kinda like a miniature Dolly Parton;
she's 4'5", 70 lbs max, long blonde hair to her tiny little waist, and as
sweet and nice as the day is long. I sit next to her in church. She has the
palest eyes I have ever seen; I still don't know if they are blue, green, or
grey..... I can't tell. If there are any praying people out there, pray for
me/her/us. This is one of those situations that is "too good to be true".
And no, she's not a transvestite, she has a 4 yr old and I just happen to
have a fifth bedroom that a kid would love..... :-)
Adieu,
Bob

[lm]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 23:12:25 GMT, "Heywood Floyd"
> wrote:

>"quietguy" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi Cele
>>
>> I agree it is a great concept, and if well run is a real source for
>networking and
>> having fun. The braches I was involved with in Sydney (no longer live
>there tho - I
>> escaped to paradise (well to me anyway) 12 years ago, had a range of
>activities - a
>> Sunday picnic which was especially good for weekend dads and for kids with
>no male
>> figures intheir life - Saturday night dances for the grownups, tennis etc,
>bus trips,
>> Christmas parties.
>>
>> Other people often got the idea tho - maybe a bit like your dad - that it
>was a 'meat
>> market'.
> Meat market is not necessarily a bad thing... <eg>
> Fortunately, at the beach where I live, there is a terrible shortage of
>decent guys who have a drivers license, don't get stoned, are financially
>secure and care about kids. I have three young lovelies in my sights. It's
>been over a year since my wife died, so it's "Look out ladies!" This time
>I'm gonna try for a younger woman; the last two were older than I. I'm
>fighting that 3% chance of getting married after age 40 tooth and nail.
> AAMOF, the gal across the street is kinda like a miniature Dolly Parton;
>she's 4'5", 70 lbs max, long blonde hair to her tiny little waist, and as
>sweet and nice as the day is long. I sit next to her in church. She has the
>palest eyes I have ever seen; I still don't know if they are blue, green, or
>grey..... I can't tell. If there are any praying people out there, pray for
>me/her/us. This is one of those situations that is "too good to be true".
>And no, she's not a transvestite, she has a 4 yr old and I just happen to
>have a fifth bedroom that a kid would love..... :-)

Wow, Bob, your mind sure does wander when you're in church! :-)

lm

[Cele]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 08:42:47 +1000, quietguy
> wrote:

>Hi Cele
>
>I agree it is a great concept, and if well run is a real source for networking and
>having fun. The braches I was involved with in Sydney (no longer live there tho - I
>escaped to paradise (well to me anyway) 12 years ago, had a range of activities - a
>Sunday picnic which was especially good for weekend dads and for kids with no male
>figures intheir life - Saturday night dances for the grownups, tennis etc, bus trips,
>Christmas parties.
>
>Other people often got the idea tho - maybe a bit like your dad - that it was a 'meat
>market'.
>
>cheers
>
>David

Sounds just like I remember. Wish I'd thought to look for them when
*I* was in Sydney, but it never occured to me. I guess I thought it'd
gone altogether.

Ah well.

Cele

[Heywood Floyd]

"lm" > wrote
> Wow, Bob, your mind sure does wander when you're in church! :-)
She =is= terribly distracting. Prettiest gal I've seen in 20 years. But,
I am doing a good job so far of containing my lust; after being married 16
years I'm a bit out of practice! ;-) I'm also not a teenager any more so the
raging hormones are a thing of the past. ALSO!!! Have you ever noticed how
all the really beautiful things in this world are dangerous, like poison
dart frogs? or my first wife?! I think this is God's way of saying, "Stay
away from =that=!" LOL!!! My daughter also has a teacher who is just as
plain Jane as the day is long, but I really like her too. Looks aren't
everything. My late wife was 5'8" and about 200+ lbs, and the sweetest woman
who ever drew breath.....
I also caught your note about being heavily armed. I do not have =any=
firearms in the house now. I used to live in a =horrible= neighborhood while
we saved enough money to buy the really nice place I've got now. People used
to do drugs, have fights or even have sex out in our yard at night! You wake
up in the morning and go out to water the garden and there's syringes and
condoms in the yard...... =That= and my insane brother is why I had all
that.
See ya,
Bob
--
"Revenge is so popular because, while it is
sweet, it is not fattening." - Alfred Hitchcock

[lm]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 12:31:53 GMT, "Heywood Floyd"
> wrote:

>"lm" > wrote
>> Wow, Bob, your mind sure does wander when you're in church! :-)
> She =is= terribly distracting. Prettiest gal I've seen in 20 years. But,
>I am doing a good job so far of containing my lust; after being married 16
>years I'm a bit out of practice! ;-)

Nothing wrong with flights of fancy to get yourself back into the
mood.

I'm also not a teenager any more so the
>raging hormones are a thing of the past. ALSO!!! Have you ever noticed how
>all the really beautiful things in this world are dangerous, like poison
>dart frogs? or my first wife?! I think this is God's way of saying, "Stay
>away from =that=!" LOL!!! My daughter also has a teacher who is just as
>plain Jane as the day is long, but I really like her too. Looks aren't
>everything. My late wife was 5'8" and about 200+ lbs, and the sweetest woman
>who ever drew breath.....

I'm about as plain as jane gets myself. Nice that you see more than
surface beauty.

> I also caught your note about being heavily armed. I do not have =any=
>firearms in the house now. I used to live in a =horrible= neighborhood while
>we saved enough money to buy the really nice place I've got now. People used
>to do drugs, have fights or even have sex out in our yard at night! You wake
>up in the morning and go out to water the garden and there's syringes and
>condoms in the yard...... =That= and my insane brother is why I had all
>that.

Sucks when *other people* are the ones having sex in your front yard,
doesn't it? :-)

lm

[quietguy]

Hi Kate

BS = Beaut Sheila (in Oz, a compliment by those who like to use the vernacular)

David

[Paul Griffiths]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:17:48 +1000, quietguy
> > wrote:
>
> >Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David
and
> >Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.
>
> I kind of like your posts. For what that's worth. Not that I post much
> myself.

Quality rather than quantity, Cele.


--
Paul Griffiths

[Cele]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 15:57:55 +0100, "Paul Griffiths"
> wrote:

>"Cele" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:17:48 +1000, quietguy
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David
>and
>> >Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.
>>
>> I kind of like your posts. For what that's worth. Not that I post much
>> myself.
>
>Quality rather than quantity, Cele.

Heh. Guess I'd better think a bit on how to take that....

LOL

Cele

[Paul Griffiths]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 12 May 2004 15:57:55 +0100, "Paul Griffiths"
> > wrote:
> >"Cele" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:17:48 +1000, quietguy
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David
> >> >and Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.
> >>
> >> I kind of like your posts. For what that's worth. Not that I post much
> >> myself.
> >
> >Quality rather than quantity, Cele.
>
> Heh. Guess I'd better think a bit on how to take that....

Come to any decisions yet?

> LOL

Or was that it? :-)


--
Paul Griffiths

[Cele]

On Mon, 24 May 2004 20:40:20 +0100, "Paul Griffiths"
> wrote:

>"Cele" > wrote in message
...
>> On Wed, 12 May 2004 15:57:55 +0100, "Paul Griffiths"
>> > wrote:
>> >"Cele" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Thu, 06 May 2004 11:17:48 +1000, quietguy
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Just a thought - if others in this group are getting sick of the David
>> >> >and Paul thing, let me know - hate to intrude too much.
>> >>
>> >> I kind of like your posts. For what that's worth. Not that I post much
>> >> myself.
>> >
>> >Quality rather than quantity, Cele.
>>
>> Heh. Guess I'd better think a bit on how to take that....
>
>Come to any decisions yet?

Yup. But not about that....;-)

>> LOL
>
>Or was that it? :-)

It's certainly a decision on *something*!

Cele

[Paul Griffiths]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 24 May 2004 20:40:20 +0100, "Paul Griffiths"
> > wrote:
> >"Cele" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Wed, 12 May 2004 15:57:55 +0100, "Paul Griffiths"
> >> > wrote:

<snip>

> >> >Quality rather than quantity, Cele.
> >>
> >> Heh. Guess I'd better think a bit on how to take that....
> >
> >Come to any decisions yet?
>
> Yup. But not about that....;-)

Cheeky...

> >> LOL
> >
> >Or was that it? :-)
>
> It's certainly a decision on *something*!

....and mysterious.

Interesting.


--
Paul Griffiths