Personal space

[Sue]

Hi everyone,

I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to stay
out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings without
asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it really
upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it is
causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding personal
space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two girls
learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a very
touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel horrible.
Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Nikki]

Sue wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to
> stay out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her
> belongings without asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at
> the very least, it really upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her
> to ask first before she just takes something, but nothing we are
> doing is working and it has become a huge negative process.

I'm not a huge fan of reward systems but it might wotk this time. There
really is no huge negative here. She gets the object, she gets her sibling
upset (which IIRC from when I was a kid is not a bad thing at all ;-) and
she causes a ruckus, which isn't so bad either! If she can stay out of her
sisters room for xxx amount of time she earns a special reward (activity or
item depending on kid). If Kara does better at staying out is Allison old
enough to bite the bullet and invite Kara in for a special play session in
her room every once in a while. Really dote on her little sister. They
could trade and then you could help Kara set up a special play session in
her room that she would invite Allison to. That might help her get a grasp
on ownership. I hope you get some more experienced answers!

> Kara is having a hard time understanding personal space and I am at a
> loss on how to teach it.

If it is a real problem you might work on seperating family and others.
With family she can get very close etc. but with all others she has to keep
one arm length away. That is a little drastic but it is also very black and
white and has a visual aid - her arm.

--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2)

[toto]

On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:29:51 -0700, "Sue"
> wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to stay
>out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings without
>asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it really
>upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
>takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
>huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it is
>causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding personal
>space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two girls
>learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a very
>touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
>quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel horrible.
>Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
>listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
>whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.

Consequences may not work very well with a child like this.

Have you investigated Sensory Integration Dysfunction? It is
possilble that a child who *needs* deep touch has this disorder
Many of these kids need treatment and help from an Occupational
Therapist (weird name for what they do, but that is what they are
called).

Every child has a different regulatory and sensory profile, and that
these activities are not appropriate or useful for every child. You
should get guidance from an occupational therapist or other individual
who is experienced with sensory integration.

For information you might want to read:
Kranowitz, Carol Stock. The Out-of-Sync Child: Recognizing and Coping
with Sensory Integration Dysfunction. 1998. New York: The Berkley
Publishing Group.

http://www.geocities.com/~kasmom/sid.html



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Welches]

Nikki > wrote in message news:3f26a03d_1@newsfeed...
> Sue wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to
> > stay out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her
> > belongings without asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at
> > the very least, it really upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her
> > to ask first before she just takes something, but nothing we are
> > doing is working and it has become a huge negative process.
>
> I'm not a huge fan of reward systems but it might wotk this time. There
> really is no huge negative here. She gets the object, she gets her
sibling
> upset (which IIRC from when I was a kid is not a bad thing at all ;-) and
> she causes a ruckus, which isn't so bad either! If she can stay out of
her
> sisters room for xxx amount of time she earns a special reward (activity
or
> item depending on kid). If Kara does better at staying out is Allison old
> enough to bite the bullet and invite Kara in for a special play session in
> her room every once in a while. Really dote on her little sister. They
> could trade and then you could help Kara set up a special play session in
> her room that she would invite Allison to. That might help her get a
grasp
> on ownership. I hope you get some more experienced answers!
>
I'd have thought that could cause problems with Allison. From Allison's
perspective Kara shouldn't be taking her things, so why should she be
rewarded for not doing so?
I'd be clear that Allison has to respect Kara's room too. I think knocking
before entering each others rooms and waiting for permission from either the
owner or parents if they're out, will go some way to showing some respect.
I think if she breaks something she has borrowed with or without permission
she should at least apologise. My brother used to borrow things and then
they'd slide under his bed and if they were seen again (for many years!)
they were often damaged and it made me very reluctant to let him have things
of mine.
I'd agree that perhaps Allison's reaction may be making it "worth" doing.
Perhaps talking with Allison and letting her see that you are on her side on
this and she needs to come to you without reacting to Kara, might help.
Depending on Allison's age maybe you could consider a lock on the door. I
don't usually like locks. Maybe a chain/bolt too high for Kara on the
outside so she can't get in easily when Allison's out.
Debbie

[R. Steve Walz]

Sue wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to stay
> out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings without
> asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it really
> upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
> takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
> huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it is
> causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding personal
> space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two girls
> learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a very
> touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
> quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel horrible.
> Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
> listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
> whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.
> --
> Sue
> mom to three girls
-----------------
Ever heard of a lock and key?
Ever took one of HER favorite toys and smashed it in front of her?
Offer to do so. She'll get the msg.
Steve

[R. Steve Walz]

Welches wrote:
>
> I'd agree that perhaps Allison's reaction may be making it "worth" doing.
-------------
Let Allison beat the **** out of her a couple times.
Steve

[dejablues]

I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she needs
a lock and her own key, so be it.
If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got into
his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to put it
where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.

"R. Steve Walz" > wrote in message
...
> Welches wrote:
> >
> > I'd agree that perhaps Allison's reaction may be making it "worth"
doing.
> -------------
> Let Allison beat the **** out of her a couple times.
> Steve

[toypup]

"dejablues" > wrote in message
...
> I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
needs
> a lock and her own key, so be it.
> If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got into
> his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to put
it
> where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.

What if there's no place the older one could put it where the younger ones
can't get at it?

[R. Steve Walz]

toypup wrote:
>
> "dejablues" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
> needs
> > a lock and her own key, so be it.
> > If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got into
> > his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to put
> it
> > where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.
>
> What if there's no place the older one could put it where the younger ones
> can't get at it?
-----------------------
Let them beat the crap out of the younger one.
They'll stop.
No lock required.

Property violation is crime.
To me it is the exception to all prohibitions on abuse.
Steve

[Tom P]

Steve, I keep reading your post and I coulnd't agree less with you. First,
blaming the older child for not putting things away can only teach Kara that
it will be OK to take the neighbor's ball because he left it on his lawn for
anybody to take it.

As for beating the child or destroying toys, these messages are violent and
are not going to teach the child to conflict resolution. It seems to me
that these methods are a little bit archeic.


"R. Steve Walz" > wrote in message
...
> Sue wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to
stay
> > out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings
without
> > asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it
really
> > upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
> > takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
> > huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it
is
> > causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding
personal
> > space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two
girls
> > learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a
very
> > touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
> > quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel
horrible.
> > Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
> > listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
> > whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.
> > --
> > Sue
> > mom to three girls
> -----------------
> Ever heard of a lock and key?
> Ever took one of HER favorite toys and smashed it in front of her?
> Offer to do so. She'll get the msg.
> Steve

[Sue]

dejablues > wrote in message
...
> I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
needs
> a lock and her own key, so be it.
> If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got into
> his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to put
it
> where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.
>

Really? I hadn't thought of that to be honest. I would have thought that I
needed to teach Kara to respect other people's belongings and to learn to
ask before she uses other people's things. Kara still gets into my things a
fair amount and I want her to ask me before she uses something of mine. I
have told Allison that she needs to hide her more important things so Kara
doesn't get it, but the problem is that Kara goes into the attic of
Allison's room and pulls out all of her things and sometimes breaks it.

And to Steve (who I can't see unless someone keeps his post) Allison has hit
Kara over this, but that isn't accetable to me. I would rather that Allison
uses her words over her fists.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Sue]

Nikki > wrote in message
> I'm not a huge fan of reward systems but it might wotk this time. There
> really is no huge negative here. She gets the object, she gets her
sibling
> upset (which IIRC from when I was a kid is not a bad thing at all ;-) and
> she causes a ruckus, which isn't so bad either! If she can stay out of
her
> sisters room for xxx amount of time she earns a special reward (activity
or
> item depending on kid). If Kara does better at staying out is Allison old
> enough to bite the bullet and invite Kara in for a special play session in
> her room every once in a while. Really dote on her little sister. They
> could trade and then you could help Kara set up a special play session in
> her room that she would invite Allison to. That might help her get a
grasp
> on ownership. I hope you get some more experienced answers!
>

Hi Nikki,

You know I have been putting some thought into a reward system for this and
I did try it yesterday and as someone mentioned, Allison said that isn't
fair. Why should she get something for staying out of my room. So then I
replied, well then you get a reward if you don't hit her when she does come
in your room. So I am not sure if that strategy is going to work. I may need
to refine this somehow, lol. I did try yesterday and told Kara that if she
stayed out of Allison's room until dinner time that she would get a bubble
gum. She didn't make it. It was only about an hour later and we discovered
that Kara went into Allison's room and took out her stuff. So one day
doesn't make it I know. And I did have a talk with Allison yesterday about
trying to let Kara come in every once in a while and playing with her.
Allison's things are interesting to Kara so I can understand that they are
new to her, but shouldn't Kara have some restraint as well?
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Sue]

Welches > wrote in message
> I'd have thought that could cause problems with Allison. From Allison's
> perspective Kara shouldn't be taking her things, so why should she be
> rewarded for not doing so?
> I'd be clear that Allison has to respect Kara's room too. I think knocking
> before entering each others rooms and waiting for permission from either
the
> owner or parents if they're out, will go some way to showing some respect.
> I think if she breaks something she has borrowed with or without
permission
> she should at least apologise. My brother used to borrow things and then
> they'd slide under his bed and if they were seen again (for many years!)
> they were often damaged and it made me very reluctant to let him have
things
> of mine.
> I'd agree that perhaps Allison's reaction may be making it "worth" doing.
> Perhaps talking with Allison and letting her see that you are on her side
on
> this and she needs to come to you without reacting to Kara, might help.
> Depending on Allison's age maybe you could consider a lock on the door. I
> don't usually like locks. Maybe a chain/bolt too high for Kara on the
> outside so she can't get in easily when Allison's out.
> Debbie

Ah I hadn't thought about the negative attention that Allison could be
giving her. I will try to work on that angle. I do think that some sort of
lock is going to have to be put up. And you are right in that Allison didn't
think it was fair for Kara to be getting a reward for staying out of her
room. I tried that yesterday and it didn't go over well and Kara wasn't able
to stay out of her room for the period I had set up. I do make Kara tell
Allison she is sorry and I make her clean up her mess each and every time.

Thank you.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Sue]

Hi Dorothy,

I have thought about that because there are other issues that Kara has that
has had me thinking lately that things are just not right with her. I read
the link that you gave me and she has quite a lot of the symptoms. The one
that bothers me the most is that Kara can't tolerate when I vacuum. She puts
her hands over her ears and cries for me to turn it off. There are certain
songs that come on the radio that she has a fit over. I am confused about
the touch thing, but Kara is very touchy/feely and I have noticed with even
the teachers at school that she has her hands on them, not all the time,
but enough for me to have to say something to her about it. My husband
thinks they way she is because she is the last and her sisters leave her out
and are not exactly the nicest to her, so Kara is reacting at that. Kara
seems to be smart, but totally not interested in learning to read or do
other little things we have tried to do over the summer. Would this be
something that the teachers in first grade would have an input on? What is
the testing process? Who would I see to rule something like this out?

Thanks Dorothy for any input you could give.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

toto > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:29:51 -0700, "Sue"
> > wrote:
>
> >Hi everyone,
> >
> >I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to stay
> >out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings
without
> >asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it
really
> >upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
> >takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
> >huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it is
> >causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding
personal
> >space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two
girls
> >learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a
very
> >touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
> >quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel horrible.
> >Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
> >listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
> >whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.
>
> Consequences may not work very well with a child like this.
>
> Have you investigated Sensory Integration Dysfunction? It is
> possilble that a child who *needs* deep touch has this disorder
> Many of these kids need treatment and help from an Occupational
> Therapist (weird name for what they do, but that is what they are
> called).
>
> Every child has a different regulatory and sensory profile, and that
> these activities are not appropriate or useful for every child. You
> should get guidance from an occupational therapist or other individual
> who is experienced with sensory integration.
>
> For information you might want to read:
> Kranowitz, Carol Stock. The Out-of-Sync Child: Recognizing and Coping
> with Sensory Integration Dysfunction. 1998. New York: The Berkley
> Publishing Group.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/~kasmom/sid.html
>
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> Outer Limits

[chiam margalit]

"Sue" > wrote in message >...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to stay
> out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings without
> asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it really
> upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
> takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
> huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it is
> causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding personal
> space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two girls
> learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a very
> touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
> quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel horrible.
> Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
> listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
> whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.


My 11 YO daughter is JUST like this, so I'm awaiting advice with
baited breath! It drives me nuts because I'm definately her biggest
target. She helps herself to my jewelery box, my wallet, my magazines,
my scarves, and my shoes. That last one is the killer because she has
REALLY stinky teenage feet and man, I don't want to put my shoes on
after she's snuck them out of the house.

I was so concerned about this behaviour and my lack of personal space
that I talked to both her pediatrician and her psychopharmacologist
about it. Both seem to feel that this is common with ADD kids (not
that your daughter is ADD, but mine is) and that the often don't pick
up the subtilties of privacy and personal space. My child really does
not get privacy at all. She often showers with the bathroom door open,
she walks into the john when I'm peeing, and she has no problem with
disturbing my room or her brother's room.

My solution was to put a hasp and padlock on my bedroom door because
she didn't get it and she was getting into things that were private
and none of her business, like my bond certificates! I don't like
living like this, but it is the ONLY way to keep her out of my stuff.
Her brother has built and maintains a 'burgler alarm' that sounds an
alarm when she enters his room.

None of this really bothers her. She doesn't understand that this is
not how normal people live. But for my own peace of mind, this is how
I am handling the situation at present. I wouldn't recommend my
solution to anyone. It is an absolute PIA to have to remember a
combination every time you want to go into your room. (She can pick
pretty much any simple keyed lock!)

Marjorie

[toto]

On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 07:43:58 -0700, "Sue"
> wrote:

>Hi Dorothy,
>
>I have thought about that because there are other issues that Kara has that
>has had me thinking lately that things are just not right with her. I read
>the link that you gave me and she has quite a lot of the symptoms. The one
>that bothers me the most is that Kara can't tolerate when I vacuum. She puts
>her hands over her ears and cries for me to turn it off. There are certain
>songs that come on the radio that she has a fit over. I am confused about
>the touch thing, but Kara is very touchy/feely and I have noticed with even
>the teachers at school that she has her hands on them, not all the time,
>but enough for me to have to say something to her about it. My husband
>thinks they way she is because she is the last and her sisters leave her out
>and are not exactly the nicest to her, so Kara is reacting at that. Kara
>seems to be smart, but totally not interested in learning to read or do
>other little things we have tried to do over the summer. Would this be
>something that the teachers in first grade would have an input on? What is
>the testing process? Who would I see to rule something like this out?
>
>Thanks Dorothy for any input you could give.

Does she go to school? If so, you may want to speak with her teacher
and ask for an evaluation by the school's assessment team which may
include and occupational therapist. If they don't have an OT on
staff, they may be able to provide a name for you. Or you may want
to ask her pediatrician for a referral to an OT.

You can also call a children's hospital and ask for a referral to an
OT trained in SI.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Sue]

Hi Rosalie,
> I would let Allison do her thing, and if she has to be mean to Kara,
> let her. That's a good natural consequence that doesn't involve the
> parents. Not that she should physically hurt her little sister (and
> why does she only do this with Allison's stuff and not with the other
> sister), but shouting or being upset will get the idea across better
> than anything the parents could do.

I think she only does this to Allison's room because Jenny and Kara share a
room and Allison's things are nice and neat and taken care of. I think it is
alluring for Kara.

> The only other thing I would advise is that if Kara came to me for
> sympathy, I would totally not give it to her. "You broke Allison's
> xyz, and she's justifiably annoyed at you and I am too. You know
> better".

I do that to a degree, but there have been times Allison has hauled off and
hit Kara and then Kara comes running to me that she is hurt. I comforted her
being hurt, but tell her that she did deserve it because she is not
respecting Allison's wishes.

> This isn't an uncontrollable 2 year old anymore. Stop making excuses
> for her.

I didn't think I was making excuses, but shouldn't I be trying to teach Kara
personal space and respect of other people's belongings?

> My granddaughter and grandson (age 7 and 10) are here now, and the
> little girl comes to her mother fake crying because her brother is
> doing this or that or the other thing. My DIL doesn't seem to see
> that a) she should tell the brother to stop and enforce it and b) that
> she shouldn't encourage the girl to whine and tattle.

I get that all day long with my three. I tell you, it is wearing me out.

Thanks.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Welches]

Sue > wrote in message
...
> Silvasurfa > wrote in message
> > If she's old enough to have an allowance she might understand being
> > forced to pay replacement cost on broken items.
> >
> We have cut out the allowance, but they are able to do extra things around
> the house to earn money, but at six, Kara isn't motivated by money yet to
> have any. But I do agree that if she had the money that some things should
> have been replaced. I will research the lock. As I mentioned, I need a
> skeleton key or perhaps I can just put a hook on the outside, but Kara
would
> be able to get a stool and unlock it.

I don't think docking pocket money at that age makes much difference unless
they're saving for something. Possibly something like "oh dear you'll have
to pay for that from the money we would have used when we go to cinema/etc
next week. so you'll have to stay behind" or "you'll have to buy a new one
rather than that comic I was going to get you" would have more effect. My
fil used to dock pocket money off dh + brothers, but dh has a very clear
memory of being docked 2p (out of 5p pocket money) and deciding that he
hadn't actually been naughty-fil was just short of money that week and
needed the 2p. He would have been 6 at the time. :-)

If she has to get a chair to unlock it she has to "think" about doing it
before hand-and possibly the consequences. If the door's just open maybe she
goes in on the spur of the moment.
Alternatively you can get those hooks that can have a padlock attached (used
mostly for garden gates or sheds round here) which you can put on the
outside. That way you don't have to worry about Allison locking herself in.
If you do that though I'd make sure Allison takes the padlock inside with
her otherwise someone might think it funny to lock her inside. I'm sure if
my sister had a lock on the outside of the door I'd have thought that very
funny!
Debbie

[toypup]

"Tom P" > wrote in message
...
> Steve, I keep reading your post and I coulnd't agree less with you.
First,
> blaming the older child for not putting things away can only teach Kara
that
> it will be OK to take the neighbor's ball because he left it on his lawn
for
> anybody to take it.

You are right. I was always wrong for complaining about my brother, but he
was never in trouble for invading my space and privacy. My mom doesn't
think privacy is important for anyone. My brother never learned. Well, he
did, he just learned what my mom believed. In fact, he doesn't think
anything should be private between family. Neither of them can understand
why I don't want them barging up into our room uninvited whenever. My
brother takes my things without asking and thinks it's okay because we're
family. They don't understand why I get upset. Good thing they don't live
next door.

[toypup]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
> x-no-archive:yes "toypup" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dejablues" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
> >needs
> >> a lock and her own key, so be it.
> >> If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got
into
> >> his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to
put
> >it
> >> where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.
> >
> >What if there's no place the older one could put it where the younger
ones
> >can't get at it?
> >
> Where do you put things the children shouldn't get into? There's
> always a way to do it otherwise it wouldn't be a safe house to be in.

When they are toddlers, it's easy. When they are older, there aren't many
places you could put something that they can't reach with some ingenuity.
When they are older, I don't expect that I should be trying to preteenproof
something. I expect them to stay out of what they are supposed to stay out
of, though I would lock up a gun (but I would never own one).

[dragonlady]

In article <J6fWa.32571$YN5.27261@sccrnsc01>,
"toypup" > wrote:

> "Rosalie B." > wrote in message
> ...
> > x-no-archive:yes "toypup" > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"dejablues" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
> > >needs
> > >> a lock and her own key, so be it.
> > >> If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got
> into
> > >> his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to
> put
> > >it
> > >> where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.
> > >
> > >What if there's no place the older one could put it where the younger
> ones
> > >can't get at it?
> > >
> > Where do you put things the children shouldn't get into? There's
> > always a way to do it otherwise it wouldn't be a safe house to be in.
>
> When they are toddlers, it's easy. When they are older, there aren't many
> places you could put something that they can't reach with some ingenuity.
> When they are older, I don't expect that I should be trying to preteenproof
> something. I expect them to stay out of what they are supposed to stay out
> of, though I would lock up a gun (but I would never own one).
>
>

Depending upon your kids, you might end up rethinking this. In some
households, you may need a locking liquor cabinet, for example, or even
to lock up perscription and OTC drugs.

When DD#2 ended up hospitalized after a deliberate overdose of a
perscription drug, it was extremely hurtful to be asked how she got into
them like I was some sort of horribly unfit parent for not having them
locked up (she was 14 at the time). Like you, it had not occurred to me
to not just expect her to stay out of stuff like that -- but it should
have, given that she had been diagnosed as clinically depressed. (And
yes, she was being treated, but these things take time -- she's still
making stupid choices about a lot of things, but the depression is under
control.)

Now, we have a safe, and drugs are generally kept in it -- and the
amount of liquor we're likely to have around is pretty insignificant,
but when we do it is hidden.

meh

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dejablues]

Why isn't she motivated by money? Do you notice a difference in her as
compared to your older daughters? At age six, maybe she has been a year in
kindergarten?
I don't necessarily think that kids should be money -motivated, but my
children always knew that money was worth something and were very willing to
work for it and spend it long before they ever went to school . My youngest
is 5.5 and he is well able to spend a dollar, and understand what it takes
to earn that dollar!


"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Silvasurfa > wrote in message
> > If she's old enough to have an allowance she might understand being
> > forced to pay replacement cost on broken items.
> >
> > If Allison is old enough to be responsible with a lock (ie, not lock
> > her door at night when quick emergency access might be needed in case
> > of fire etc) then a lock on her door might be a workable idea.
> >
> > I'd try to stay out of their squabbles as much as possible... nothing
> > more annoying than being an enforcer.
> >
> > As far as people's personal space goes, there are probably people out
> > there who would think this cruel, but I'd find someone who doesn't
> > need to be in a primary carer role to her, and who is willing to play
> > the bad guy, who can get a bit stern with her when she tries crawling
> > up on them etc, so she can have an experience of being firmly put in
> > her place. Strict stern old maiden aunts exist for a reason y'know.
>
> We have cut out the allowance, but they are able to do extra things around
> the house to earn money, but at six, Kara isn't motivated by money yet to
> have any. But I do agree that if she had the money that some things should
> have been replaced. I will research the lock. As I mentioned, I need a
> skeleton key or perhaps I can just put a hook on the outside, but Kara
would
> be able to get a stool and unlock it.
>
> As for a stern Aunt, lol that is funny but I do know what you mean.
> Unfortunately, I don't have a stern aunt, but we have a family friend that
> doesn't have children and is not 100% comfortable with kids, and he has
told
> her quite a few times in a stern voice to get down, but it isn't making a
> difference.
> --
> Sue
> mom to three girls
>
>
>

[R. Steve Walz]

Tom P wrote:
>
> Steve, I keep reading your post and I coulnd't agree less with you. First,
> blaming the older child for not putting things away can only teach Kara that
> it will be OK to take the neighbor's ball because he left it on his lawn for
> anybody to take it.
--------------------------
I'm not blaming the child, give her the choice, a lock on her room
or the right to beat her sister if she gets into her stuff. That's
the way the world works for both of them later.


> As for beating the child or destroying toys, these messages are violent and
> are not going to teach the child to conflict resolution. It seems to me
> that these methods are a little bit archeic.
--------------------------
Beating people for crimes against others is NOT violence and works
fine. They stop. Beating people for anything else is violence.
Steve


> "R. Steve Walz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Sue wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I need some consequences and/or how to teach my 6-year-old, Kara, to
> stay
> > > out of her older sister's (Allison) room. Kara takes her belongings
> without
> > > asking and it either ends up getting torn up or at the very least, it
> really
> > > upsets Allison. We are trying to teach her to ask first before she just
> > > takes something, but nothing we are doing is working and it has become a
> > > huge negative process. It is causing Allison to be mean to Kara and it
> is
> > > causing us great stress. Kara is having a hard time understanding
> personal
> > > space and I am at a loss on how to teach it. It seems the my other two
> girls
> > > learned personal space without too much involvement from me. Kara is a
> very
> > > touchy/feeling kid, but she takes it too far. She doesn't know when to
> > > quit. Most people end up getting upset with her and then I feel
> horrible.
> > > Very close friends are able to tell her to get down and sometimes she
> > > listens, but most of the time it involves me having to get her away from
> > > whoever she is bugging. Any suggestions for me? Thanks so much.
> > > --
> > > Sue
> > > mom to three girls
> > -----------------
> > Ever heard of a lock and key?
> > Ever took one of HER favorite toys and smashed it in front of her?
> > Offer to do so. She'll get the msg.
> > Steve

[R. Steve Walz]

Sue wrote:
>
> Nikki > wrote in message
> > I'm not a huge fan of reward systems but it might wotk this time. There
> > really is no huge negative here. She gets the object, she gets her
> sibling
> > upset (which IIRC from when I was a kid is not a bad thing at all ;-) and
> > she causes a ruckus, which isn't so bad either! If she can stay out of
> her
> > sisters room for xxx amount of time she earns a special reward (activity
> or
> > item depending on kid). If Kara does better at staying out is Allison old
> > enough to bite the bullet and invite Kara in for a special play session in
> > her room every once in a while. Really dote on her little sister. They
> > could trade and then you could help Kara set up a special play session in
> > her room that she would invite Allison to. That might help her get a
> grasp
> > on ownership. I hope you get some more experienced answers!
> >
>
> Hi Nikki,
>
> You know I have been putting some thought into a reward system for this and
> I did try it yesterday and as someone mentioned, Allison said that isn't
> fair. Why should she get something for staying out of my room. So then I
> replied, well then you get a reward if you don't hit her when she does come
> in your room. So I am not sure if that strategy is going to work. I may need
> to refine this somehow, lol. I did try yesterday and told Kara that if she
> stayed out of Allison's room until dinner time that she would get a bubble
> gum. She didn't make it. It was only about an hour later and we discovered
> that Kara went into Allison's room and took out her stuff. So one day
> doesn't make it I know. And I did have a talk with Allison yesterday about
> trying to let Kara come in every once in a while and playing with her.
> Allison's things are interesting to Kara so I can understand that they are
> new to her, but shouldn't Kara have some restraint as well?
> --
> Sue
> mom to three girls
------------------
Kara should be beaten on each occasion she enters Allison's room
without permission. Allison should also have a lock on her room
for when she's not there or wishes to lock it.
Steve

[R. Steve Walz]

Rosalie B. wrote:
>
> x-no-archive:yes "toypup" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"dejablues" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I agree. It's Allisons room, Allisons stuff, let her police it. If she
> >needs
> >> a lock and her own key, so be it.
> >> If one of my older sons complains because one of the younger ones got into
> >> his stuff, I say "Oh well, I guess you didn't care enough about it to put
> >it
> >> where he couldn't get it!" I refuse to monitor their belongings.
> >
> >What if there's no place the older one could put it where the younger ones
> >can't get at it?
> >
> Where do you put things the children shouldn't get into? There's
> always a way to do it otherwise it wouldn't be a safe house to be in.
>
> This isn't an issue of personal space (in my mind) but an issue of
> other people's property.
>
> It sounds like from the OP that the older two girls were able to deal
> with it between themselves, possibly just by being 'mean' to each
> other.
>
> I would let Allison do her thing, and if she has to be mean to Kara,
> let her. That's a good natural consequence that doesn't involve the
> parents. Not that she should physically hurt her little sister (and
> why does she only do this with Allison's stuff and not with the other
> sister), but shouting or being upset will get the idea across better
> than anything the parents could do.
>
> The only other thing I would advise is that if Kara came to me for
> sympathy, I would totally not give it to her. "You broke Allison's
> xyz, and she's justifiably annoyed at you and I am too. You know
> better".
>
> This isn't an uncontrollable 2 year old anymore. Stop making excuses
> for her.
>
> My granddaughter and grandson (age 7 and 10) are here now, and the
> little girl comes to her mother fake crying because her brother is
> doing this or that or the other thing. My DIL doesn't seem to see
> that a) she should tell the brother to stop and enforce it and b) that
> she shouldn't encourage the girl to whine and tattle.
>
>
> grandma Rosalie
-----------------
Doesn't mean she doesn't have the absolute right to be left alone.
It just means that her rights have been disregarded often enough
that she has had to learn to do it as an act. In adult life, people
don't usually have to repeatedly pretend to be harmed to the police
to get them to make someone else LEAVE YOU THE **** ALONE!!

You're dishonoring her. Protect her, she has that right.
Steve

[toypup]

"Tom P" > wrote in message
...
> Steve, I keep reading your post and I coulnd't agree less with you.
First,
> blaming the older child for not putting things away can only teach Kara
that
> it will be OK to take the neighbor's ball because he left it on his lawn
for
> anybody to take it.

I know people who think like that. I have a coworker who takes other
people's things that are in a common closet if they are not there at the
time he asks them to claim it. If they are not there, he figures it's his
to keep.

[Nikki]

Sue wrote:

> Hi Nikki,
>
> You know I have been putting some thought into a reward system for
> this and I did try it yesterday and as someone mentioned, Allison
> said that isn't fair.

Ha :-) Makes sense. See, I'm glad people with more experience chimed in!
Actually in reading the thread I like the lock idea the best. Hope you get
it all worked out.

>but shouldn't Kara have some restraint as
> well?

Hopefully that will come huh? Allison might prefer she learn restraint in
some other way though...with someone elses stuff! Good luck!!


--
Nikki
Mama to Hunter (4) and Luke (2)

[toto]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:09:25 -0700, "Sue" >
wrote:

>Other than that, there
>isn't anything in specific that she wants that would motivate her to do her
>chores to get her allowance. Kara just completed kindergarten and will start
>1st grade in three weeks (wow). Kara can spend the money just fine, but I
>can't use that over her head though because she doesn't care. My other girls
>now is another story. They will do chores willingly to get their allowance
>and definitely knows how to spend it, lol.

Imo, allowance should not be tied to chores.

Chores should be expected because children are part of the family and
adults need help to keep the household running smoothly. Children
should have a say in what chores they do and when they do them.
Again, imo, children should take care of *themselves and their things*
as much as possible, so their own rooms and possessions should be
their responsibilty from an early age. Other than this chores should
be assigned on the basis of age and preference and with a view to
helping kids learn about what it takes to keep a house up and a view
toward helping them to feel they are valuable members of the family.
Also, it seems a good idea to allow children to decide to swap chores
when they wish in order to schedule other events in their lives as
they get older.

Allowance, otoh, should be a way for children to learn how to manage
money and to budget. It should start early and increase with age and
should include some money for fixed expenses that they may choose
to use differently, but which will not be funded by other sources. My
own children's allowances once they were in middle school included
their lunch money and their busfares to and from school (public
transportation). My son often chose to walk and use his bus money
for baseball cards, my daughter often chose to pack her lunch and
save her lunch money and to use that for other things. In high
school, both also had clothing money and could choose how to
spend that. My son didn't like to shop, so he often asked me to
just pick up pants in his size and different colors (cords and sweats
not jeans) and t-shirts with sports logos. His budget for clothing
was generally totally used up. My daughter, otoh, liked to shop in
resale shops and often managed to save some of her clothing
budget to spend on meals out or special music cds, etc.

This is not to say that some chores cannot be paid for. In the case
of chores which go above and beyond the normal chores, it may be
a good idea to offer to pay children to take them on. But there are
certain chores that I think should be done without this.

This is only my opinion. Take what you like from it and discard the
rest.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Sue]

What I mean, when we were giving allowance for specific chores, I couldn't
say your not getting your allowance this week because you didn't do your
chores. She didn't care one way or the other if she got some money or not.
She, however, did go through a month period of where she wanted The Happy
Family Barbie and she did save for it and bought it. Other than that, there
isn't anything in specific that she wants that would motivate her to do her
chores to get her allowance. Kara just completed kindergarten and will start
1st grade in three weeks (wow). Kara can spend the money just fine, but I
can't use that over her head though because she doesn't care. My other girls
now is another story. They will do chores willingly to get their allowance
and definitely knows how to spend it, lol.

--
Sue
mom to three girls

dejablues > wrote in message
...
> Why isn't she motivated by money? Do you notice a difference in her as
> compared to your older daughters? At age six, maybe she has been a year
in
> kindergarten?
> I don't necessarily think that kids should be money -motivated, but my
> children always knew that money was worth something and were very willing
to
> work for it and spend it long before they ever went to school . My
youngest
> is 5.5 and he is well able to spend a dollar, and understand what it takes
> to earn that dollar!
>
>
> "Sue" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Silvasurfa > wrote in message
> > > If she's old enough to have an allowance she might understand being
> > > forced to pay replacement cost on broken items.
> > >
> > > If Allison is old enough to be responsible with a lock (ie, not lock
> > > her door at night when quick emergency access might be needed in case
> > > of fire etc) then a lock on her door might be a workable idea.
> > >
> > > I'd try to stay out of their squabbles as much as possible... nothing
> > > more annoying than being an enforcer.
> > >
> > > As far as people's personal space goes, there are probably people out
> > > there who would think this cruel, but I'd find someone who doesn't
> > > need to be in a primary carer role to her, and who is willing to play
> > > the bad guy, who can get a bit stern with her when she tries crawling
> > > up on them etc, so she can have an experience of being firmly put in
> > > her place. Strict stern old maiden aunts exist for a reason y'know.
> >
> > We have cut out the allowance, but they are able to do extra things
around
> > the house to earn money, but at six, Kara isn't motivated by money yet
to
> > have any. But I do agree that if she had the money that some things
should
> > have been replaced. I will research the lock. As I mentioned, I need a
> > skeleton key or perhaps I can just put a hook on the outside, but Kara
> would
> > be able to get a stool and unlock it.
> >
> > As for a stern Aunt, lol that is funny but I do know what you mean.
> > Unfortunately, I don't have a stern aunt, but we have a family friend
that
> > doesn't have children and is not 100% comfortable with kids, and he has
> told
> > her quite a few times in a stern voice to get down, but it isn't making
a
> > difference.
> > --
> > Sue
> > mom to three girls
> >
> >
> >
>
>

[Sue]

Yep that is why we discontinued connecting allowance with regular chores,
mostly because most of the mess is theirs so we decided not to pay them for
cleaning up their own mess.

We are now adding extra things around the house so they can earn extra
money.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

toto > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:09:25 -0700, "Sue" >
> wrote:
>
> >Other than that, there
> >isn't anything in specific that she wants that would motivate her to do
her
> >chores to get her allowance. Kara just completed kindergarten and will
start
> >1st grade in three weeks (wow). Kara can spend the money just fine, but I
> >can't use that over her head though because she doesn't care. My other
girls
> >now is another story. They will do chores willingly to get their
allowance
> >and definitely knows how to spend it, lol.
>
> Imo, allowance should not be tied to chores.
>
> Chores should be expected because children are part of the family and
> adults need help to keep the household running smoothly. Children
> should have a say in what chores they do and when they do them.
> Again, imo, children should take care of *themselves and their things*
> as much as possible, so their own rooms and possessions should be
> their responsibilty from an early age. Other than this chores should
> be assigned on the basis of age and preference and with a view to
> helping kids learn about what it takes to keep a house up and a view
> toward helping them to feel they are valuable members of the family.
> Also, it seems a good idea to allow children to decide to swap chores
> when they wish in order to schedule other events in their lives as
> they get older.
>
> Allowance, otoh, should be a way for children to learn how to manage
> money and to budget. It should start early and increase with age and
> should include some money for fixed expenses that they may choose
> to use differently, but which will not be funded by other sources. My
> own children's allowances once they were in middle school included
> their lunch money and their busfares to and from school (public
> transportation). My son often chose to walk and use his bus money
> for baseball cards, my daughter often chose to pack her lunch and
> save her lunch money and to use that for other things. In high
> school, both also had clothing money and could choose how to
> spend that. My son didn't like to shop, so he often asked me to
> just pick up pants in his size and different colors (cords and sweats
> not jeans) and t-shirts with sports logos. His budget for clothing
> was generally totally used up. My daughter, otoh, liked to shop in
> resale shops and often managed to save some of her clothing
> budget to spend on meals out or special music cds, etc.
>
> This is not to say that some chores cannot be paid for. In the case
> of chores which go above and beyond the normal chores, it may be
> a good idea to offer to pay children to take them on. But there are
> certain chores that I think should be done without this.
>
> This is only my opinion. Take what you like from it and discard the
> rest.
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> Outer Limits

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>Why isn't she motivated by money? Do you notice a difference in her as
>compared to your older daughters? At age six, maybe she has been a year in
>kindergarten?
>I don't necessarily think that kids should be money -motivated, but my
>children always knew that money was worth something and were very willing to
>work for it and spend it long before they ever went to school .

Gosh, my daughters are nine and they don't think that much about money. I have
never bothered with allowance because I can't think of anything that I
particularly want them to spend it on that I wouldn't just give them. These
days when kids are supervised so much more are very different from when I was a
kid. My kids aren't out going to the store by themselves.

--Helen

[toto]

On 01 Aug 2003 18:22:09 GMT, (H Schinske) wrote:

>These days when kids are supervised so much more are very
>different from when I was a kid. My kids aren't out going to the
>store by themselves.

This is one of those situations I find very sad really.

I do understand why parents do this, otoh, I wonder about
where you live and if it wouldn't work better to get to know
some of the storeowners and other people in town if the
town is small enough so that the kids can have the experience
of being independent. At 9 or 10, I would think that there
ought to be *somewhere* they can go on their own without
parents and supervision.

Of course, if not, why not allow them at least to have some
experience of buying there own things by *not* giving it to
them and letting them have an allowance and save it and
then taking them to the store with you to buy it. I do think
it is really important for kids to have things that are their
own and which you may not *approve* of for various reasons
or which cost enough that they would need to save up for them.

Life is about risk. I think that you need to allow some level
of risk so that kids learn to deal with it. You may need to
teach them what to do if the things you are afraid of happen,
but for the most part, kids are not really in such danger. We
simply see more reported.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Stephanie]

"Sue" > wrote in message >...
> Nikki > wrote in message
> > I'm not a huge fan of reward systems but it might wotk this time. There
> > really is no huge negative here. She gets the object, she gets her
> sibling
> > upset (which IIRC from when I was a kid is not a bad thing at all ;-) and
> > she causes a ruckus, which isn't so bad either! If she can stay out of
> her
> > sisters room for xxx amount of time she earns a special reward (activity
> or
> > item depending on kid). If Kara does better at staying out is Allison old
> > enough to bite the bullet and invite Kara in for a special play session in
> > her room every once in a while. Really dote on her little sister. They
> > could trade and then you could help Kara set up a special play session in
> > her room that she would invite Allison to. That might help her get a
> grasp
> > on ownership. I hope you get some more experienced answers!
> >
>
> Hi Nikki,
>
> You know I have been putting some thought into a reward system for this and
> I did try it yesterday and as someone mentioned, Allison said that isn't
> fair. Why should she get something for staying out of my room. So then I
> replied, well then you get a reward if you don't hit her when she does come
> in your room. So I am not sure if that strategy is going to work. I may need
> to refine this somehow, lol. I did try yesterday and told Kara that if she
> stayed out of Allison's room until dinner time that she would get a bubble
> gum. She didn't make it. It was only about an hour later and we discovered
> that Kara went into Allison's room and took out her stuff. So one day
> doesn't make it I know. And I did have a talk with Allison yesterday about
> trying to let Kara come in every once in a while and playing with her.
> Allison's things are interesting to Kara so I can understand that they are
> new to her, but shouldn't Kara have some restraint as well?

I think you are being a little backward on this one. This is being far
more than an issue than it ought to be. If it is Allison's stuff that
is being pawed and damaged, you owe it to Allison to either help her
defend it or get the heck out of the way. By setting the time limit of
how long to stay out of the stuff, you are basically allowing the
behavior to continue. Kara - you do not go into Allison's room ever.
You do not take an item. Not once. If you cannot manage this, I will
get a lock for her door. Period. Wishy washy game playing ended.
Allison's stuff protected.

Stephanie