Dealing with bully behavior

[Istara]

Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes
Adderall (sp?) daily (school-days only) to help him focus. Like many
(most?) ADHD children, he tends to me overly emotional, cries easily,
and takes a good bit of teasing ("cry baby") at school for it. We're
working on dealing with the crying issues - I explained to him that
crying is like using the bathroom, something everyone does, but better
done behind a closed door when you're out in public. He seemed to
understand that, and has (supposedly) been making an effort not to cry
in front of classmates/at school.

Now, though, he's in trouble for bully behavior. I'm forever hearing
"the other kids pick on me," but now he's apparently started picking on
one of the other kids - a boy that was, supposedly, his friend, and that
he admits hasn't really done anything to him or been anything but nice
to him recently. This boy also happens to be the math teacher's son, and
I'm not sure if that has anything to do with what's going on or not. I
got called on this today, by the school counselor - and this one was
apparently the third or fourth incident in the last few weeks. First I'd
heard of it.

There've been other stresses in our home-life, recently. I lost my job
about 6 weeks ago - was asked to resign due to a hearing problem that
made me unfit for duty, and there was no 'reasonable accomodation' that
could be made. I've been job-hunting, money's been tight, we've had to
cut most of the few luxuries we'd managed to keep after his dad and I
separated... I got a job offer this morning, which I accepted, and which
should ease the stress at home, but... How likely is it that the current
behavior problem is related to home stress?

My standing rule is that anytime he gets into trouble enough at school
to be put on restriction (losing recess and/or having to sit at the
'silent lunch' table), he gets put on video game/t.v. restriction at
home for the same number of days. My mother keeps telling me I'm being
too harsh when I do this (of course, she also thinks I'm too strict
because I insist he use good manners, and say 'please,' 'thank you,'
'ma'am,' and 'sir', and not call an adult by their first name unless
they specifically invite him to do so), but the restrictions at school
really don't seem to mean a whole lot to him, while the video game
restriction at home hits him where it really hurts - he'd LIVE by the
video game system, if allowed to do so, and his time is already
restricted on school days due to homework, time constraints, and me
insisting we spend at least a LITTLE bit of family time together every day.

We've discussed the bully thing, and he insists he doesn't know WHY he's
mad at the other kid and been picking on him, he just was and did. I've
set him up to see the school counselor once a week, until we get the
behavior problem worked out again, reminded him of the restrictions
rule, and told him that bullying is unacceptable.

Questions are:
1) Am I being too harsh, with the restrictions rule?
2)a) How likely is it that the bullying thing is related to the home
stress, and b) how likely that it will smooth out now that I have a job
again (I will, if the paperwork is all done quickly enough, be starting
next Monday)?
3) Am I over-reacting, setting him up for weekly visits with the
counselor? She usually just checks on him with his teacher(s) once a
week or so, to monitor behavior due to the ADHD and the divorce-in-process.
4) Can anyone offer any suggestions on other ways of dealing with the
bullying and crying issues?

Mine is a good kid, gives very little trouble most of the time, but -
like most kids his age that I've met - will try to wriggle out of
admitting to anything that might get him into trouble, if he thinks he
can get away with it. He's definitely a drama king, but I've never
really known him to be a bully. Not since we got him on the meds for the
ADHD, anyway - his behavior and focus-ability have steadied out a lot.
Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Observations, advice, etc. are all welcomed. I know I'm not a perfect
Mom - don't know anyone who is - but I feel like I'm missing something here.

Thanks in advance.

~ Dor

[Purchgdss]

>Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes
>Adderall (sp?) daily (school-days only) to help him focus. Like many
>(most?) ADHD children, he tends to me overly emotional, cries easily,
>and takes a good bit of teasing ("cry baby") at school for it. We're
>working on dealing with the crying issues - I explained to him that
>crying is like using the bathroom, something everyone does, but better
>done behind a closed door when you're out in public. He seemed to
>understand that, and has (supposedly) been making an effort not to cry
>in front of classmates/at school.
>
>Now, though, he's in trouble for bully behavior. I'm forever hearing
>"the other kids pick on me," but now he's apparently started picking on
>one of the other kids - a boy that was, supposedly, his friend, and that
>he admits hasn't really done anything to him or been anything but nice
>to him recently. This boy also happens to be the math teacher's son, and
>I'm not sure if that has anything to do with what's going on or not. I
>got called on this today, by the school counselor - and this one was
>apparently the third or fourth incident in the last few weeks. First I'd
>heard of it.
>
>There've been other stresses in our home-life, recently. I lost my job
>about 6 weeks ago - was asked to resign due to a hearing problem that
>made me unfit for duty, and there was no 'reasonable accomodation' that
>could be made. I've been job-hunting, money's been tight, we've had to
>cut most of the few luxuries we'd managed to keep after his dad and I
>separated... I got a job offer this morning, which I accepted, and which
>should ease the stress at home, but... How likely is it that the current
>behavior problem is related to home stress?
>
>My standing rule is that anytime he gets into trouble enough at school
>to be put on restriction (losing recess and/or having to sit at the
>'silent lunch' table), he gets put on video game/t.v. restriction at
>home for the same number of days. My mother keeps telling me I'm being
>too harsh when I do this (of course, she also thinks I'm too strict
>because I insist he use good manners, and say 'please,' 'thank you,'
>'ma'am,' and 'sir', and not call an adult by their first name unless
>they specifically invite him to do so), but the restrictions at school
>really don't seem to mean a whole lot to him, while the video game
>restriction at home hits him where it really hurts - he'd LIVE by the
>video game system, if allowed to do so, and his time is already
>restricted on school days due to homework, time constraints, and me
>insisting we spend at least a LITTLE bit of family time together every day.
>
>We've discussed the bully thing, and he insists he doesn't know WHY he's
>mad at the other kid and been picking on him, he just was and did. I've
>set him up to see the school counselor once a week, until we get the
>behavior problem worked out again, reminded him of the restrictions
>rule, and told him that bullying is unacceptable.
>
>Questions are:
>1) Am I being too harsh, with the restrictions rule?
>2)a) How likely is it that the bullying thing is related to the home
>stress, and b) how likely that it will smooth out now that I have a job
>again (I will, if the paperwork is all done quickly enough, be starting
>next Monday)?
>3) Am I over-reacting, setting him up for weekly visits with the
>counselor? She usually just checks on him with his teacher(s) once a
>week or so, to monitor behavior due to the ADHD and the divorce-in-process.
>4) Can anyone offer any suggestions on other ways of dealing with the
>bullying and crying issues?
>
>Mine is a good kid, gives very little trouble most of the time, but -
>like most kids his age that I've met - will try to wriggle out of
>admitting to anything that might get him into trouble, if he thinks he
>can get away with it. He's definitely a drama king, but I've never
>really known him to be a bully. Not since we got him on the meds for the
>ADHD, anyway - his behavior and focus-ability have steadied out a lot.
>Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?
>
>Observations, advice, etc. are all welcomed. I know I'm not a perfect
>Mom - don't know anyone who is - but I feel like I'm missing something here.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>~ Dor

If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
extensively.

Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
be a GOOD thing).

Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.

Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.

You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
you can reassure him that YOU are in control.


Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

[Istara]

Purchgdss wrote:
>>Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes

<snipped for space>

>Thanks in advance.
>>
>>~ Dor
>
>
> If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
> diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
> extensively.
>

I've been wondering a little bit about the ADHD diagnosis, recently. He
actually does display many/most of the "classic" symptoms - inability to
concentrate/focus for extended periods of time, inability to sit still
for any appreciable period, etc. According to the pediatrician, when we
started him on the medication for it, she said it would either make a
world of difference overnight, if he truly WAS ADHD, or it would make no
apparent difference whatsoever, if he wasn't. It made such a difference
the first day he took it that he commented on it himself when he got
home from school (he was 7, at the time, in first grade).

Recently, though, *I* was diagnosed with a Central Auditory Processing
Disorder. I did some research on APDs, of course, and found that they
are frequently mis-diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in children, due to a
similarity in symptoms - it's difficult and frustrating to try to focus
on something in school when you can't always understand what the teacher
is saying, and children with CAPDs frequently have high intelligence but
accompanied by low-level learning disorders such as mild dyslexia or
discalcula (sp?).

He does play video games a lot, if allowed - they are his dad's favorite
hobby, and I think he sort of sees it as a way to connect with his dad.
Truthfully, Dad didn't really spend a lot of time with him until he got
to an age where he was able to do stuff that interested Dad - like
playing video games. Drives me nuts to see him (my son) playing them,
sometimes, because it's not at all unusual to walk into his room when he
has his "freetime" to find the TV going on a show, the radio/CD player
going on the other side of the room, and him sprawled in the floor
playing his Gameboy. And he, supposedly, is paying attention to all
three at the same time. *I* can't pull that one off - although I'm
coming to realize that it may be due more to my CAPD than to it being
really difficult for a 'normal' person to do(?), but he seems to thrive
on it.

> Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
> be a GOOD thing).
>
> Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.
>
> Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
> and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.
>
> You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
> need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
> Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
> you can reassure him that YOU are in control.
>
>
> Just my 2 cents.........
> Christine

Your two cents are at least a dollar's worth of things to think about. :-)

Fourth grade, in our school, is REALLY different from third - they are
changing classes for different subjects, for the first time, and are
required to be very organized, keeping everything in specific order in
their notebooks for each class, etc. I'm suspecting that this, with the
other stuff at home, may be contributing to the problems.

I haven't been the best example of organization at home, over the years,
I know, though I'm trying to improve. I grew up in too big a family (8
kids plus parent/step-parent) living in too small a house (3 bedrooms),
so was used to things always being cluttered up from too little space.
Our house, now, is rarely truly dirty, but it does get pretty
clutter-messy at times. I'm working on it, but still have a ways to go.

What I'm getting out of your 2 cents is to keep doing what I'm doing
(regardless what my Mom thinks of me being 'so strict' :-) ), keep
trying to improve my own organizational skills and help him learn them,
and keep spending as much time as I can with him. And check into getting
him evaluated for the APD, once I have medical insurance again to cover
the cost. Yes?

Thanks for the observations - I know I don't always have a balanced view
of discipline with my son, and it helps to get other people's
opinions/ovservations from time to time. My Dad (birth as opposed to
step) was an extremely domineering sort with a very heavy hand, and I
have a tendency to err on the over-lenient side in trying to avoid being
harmfully harsh, like he was. But I'm also acutely aware that a parent
can do more harm than good by being TOO lenient, too. It's not an easy
balance to find, for me.

I try to avoid spankings, for instance, whenever possible, but have set
rules about when my son WILL get one - such as for fighting in school
(except in self defense), or when he pulls something that could be
dangerous to himself or others. And I've made sure he knows what will
get him spanked. The rare times he breaks one of the 'spanking rules', I
think my son gets more upset about the IDEA of getting a spanking than
about the actual spanking itself - because I usually end up crying right
along with him, the whole time I'm 'administering justice'. I won't use
anything but my hand on his backside - it would be too easy to do injury
any other way, as I saw more than once as a child - but it's still
upsetting.

I sometimes wish kids came with Owners' Manuals, you know? It would sure
make them easier to raise. Maybe. :-) Thanks again.

~ Dor

[denanson]

"Istara" > wrote in message
> Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,

Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
possibilities.
Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.


> Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?

Yeah, drop the lot.

Dennis

[Karen O'Mara]

Istara > wrote in message >...

Here's my thoughts.
> Questions are:
> 1) Am I being too harsh, with the restrictions rule?

It seems to me you aren't being too harsh, but maybe another sort of
punishment is appropriate. I mean, if has to sit out recess and then
sit out other activities at the end of the day, he may have a lot of
energy built up that he may need to spend.

> 2)a) How likely is it that the bullying thing is related to the home
> stress, and b) how likely that it will smooth out now that I have a job
> again (I will, if the paperwork is all done quickly enough, be starting
> next Monday)?

Gee, I don't know if job will smooth out, or if it will get worse. I
think bullying may be related to home stress. It makes senses that
anxieties would overlap the two arenas.

> 3) Am I over-reacting, setting him up for weekly visits with the
> counselor? She usually just checks on him with his teacher(s) once a
> week or so, to monitor behavior due to the ADHD and the divorce-in-process.

The more counseling, the better, would be my thought. Perhaps, family
(mom and son) sessions, too?

> 4) Can anyone offer any suggestions on other ways of dealing with the
> bullying and crying issues?

Poor kid, wish it was obvious to try a fix in a specific area...
sometimes school/life is just so hard on some people at various stages
in life. I can only think of introducing him to some diversionary
activity that he may be interested in that may fulfill him somehow.
Does he have a pet? Can you enroll him in non-school activity or
athletic afterschool program?

>
> Mine is a good kid, gives very little trouble most of the time, but -
> like most kids his age that I've met - will try to wriggle out of
> admitting to anything that might get him into trouble, if he thinks he
> can get away with it. He's definitely a drama king, but I've never
> really known him to be a bully. Not since we got him on the meds for the
> ADHD, anyway - his behavior and focus-ability have steadied out a lot.
> Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?
>
> Observations, advice, etc. are all welcomed. I know I'm not a perfect
> Mom - don't know anyone who is - but I feel like I'm missing something here.

I wish I knew more about ADHD. I would definitly have the dosage
re-evaluated since you've mentioned that the focus-ability has
steadied. Perhaps, this will help. Maybe someone will suggest stopping
it, altogether?...

Karen

[Cele]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>
>"Istara" > wrote in message
>> Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,
>
>Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
>possibilities.
>Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.
>
>
>> Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?
>
>Yeah, drop the lot.
>
>Dennis
>
Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
*inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics? For a kid with *true*
ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.

*Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.

Cele

[Istara]

Cele wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Istara" > wrote in message
>>
>>>Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,
>>
>>Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
>>possibilities.
>>Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.
>>
>>
>>
>>>Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?
>>
>>Yeah, drop the lot.
>>
>>Dennis
>>
>
> Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
> *inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
> diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
> transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
> massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics? For a kid with *true*
> ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
> popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.
>
> *Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.
>
> Cele
I've been thinking about how to respond to Dennis's observation...

I'm pretty well convinced that my son does have ADHD, at least
mild-to-moderately. Our pediatrician is of a "wait and see" mind on
non-critical issues, does NOT like to over-medicate a child, and has
been very picky and fussy about my son's diagnosis and treatment. We
keep a regular watch on his behavior at school and home, so that we can
spot any sudden or unexplained changes in behavior that might (or might
not) be related to the ADHD, and especially so since his dad and I
separated.

I did NOT want to medicate him, initially - I'd heard of and observed
some pretty disturbing side effects from some of the drugs used for it.
But... My youngest brother was/is ADHD, my son's dad has ADD, and it
does tend to 'run' in families. According to what I've read over the
last couple of years, a child is something like 30% more likely than
average to have either one of these disorders if one parent has it in
their immediate family (as with one of their siblings) and can be as
much as 50-60% more likely than average to have it if both parents have
it in the immediate family, or if one of the child's parents has the
disorder.

The particular medication my son is on is a fairly low-dosage extended
release med, taken once a day, and it's out of his system again within
10-12 hours. I've noticed none of the side-effects I saw in my brother,
20 years ago, or even in the neighbor's grandson (my son's age, on a
different med), the past year or two - not even mildly. And, according
to the pediatrician, the stuff would have made him MORE
exciteable/emotional/etc. if he did NOT have ADHD. Instead, it's taken
just enough of the edge off for him to be able to stay in focus and on
task for 'normal' time periods. Doesn't seem to really have reduced his
energy much, just gives his self-control a little 'oomph'.

Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.

~ Dor

[Karen O'Mara]

Istara > wrote in message >...
> Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
> Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
> indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
> children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
> past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
> afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
> some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.

Good progressive thinking! Keep us posted. I think you are on the right track!

Karen

[denanson]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Istara" > wrote in message
> >> Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,
> >
> >Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
> >possibilities.
> >Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.
> >
> >
> >> Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?
> >
> >Yeah, drop the lot.

> Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
> *inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
> diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
> transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
> massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics?

No, I am not saying that.

>For a kid with *true*
> ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
> popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.

I merely pointed out that an ADHD diagnosis was not possible in Ireland for
a child of that age. I have said why on other occasions over the years. On
that basis, any drug to treat ADHD woud be inaprpriate.
> *Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.

Like I said.

Dennis

[denanson]

"Istara" > wrote in message

> I've been thinking about how to respond to Dennis's observation...

But this reply is to Celia's post.

> I'm pretty well convinced that my son does have ADHD, at least
> mild-to-moderately. Our pediatrician is of a "wait and see" mind on
> non-critical issues, does NOT like to over-medicate a child, and has
> been very picky and fussy about my son's diagnosis and treatment. We
> keep a regular watch on his behavior at school and home, so that we can
> spot any sudden or unexplained changes in behavior that might (or might
> not) be related to the ADHD, and especially so since his dad and I
> separated.
>
> I did NOT want to medicate him, initially - I'd heard of and observed
> some pretty disturbing side effects from some of the drugs used for it.
> But... My youngest brother was/is ADHD, my son's dad has ADD, and it
> does tend to 'run' in families. According to what I've read over the
> last couple of years, a child is something like 30% more likely than
> average to have either one of these disorders if one parent has it in
> their immediate family (as with one of their siblings) and can be as
> much as 50-60% more likely than average to have it if both parents have
> it in the immediate family, or if one of the child's parents has the
> disorder.
>
> The particular medication my son is on is a fairly low-dosage extended
> release med, taken once a day, and it's out of his system again within
> 10-12 hours. I've noticed none of the side-effects I saw in my brother,
> 20 years ago, or even in the neighbor's grandson (my son's age, on a
> different med), the past year or two - not even mildly. And, according
> to the pediatrician, the stuff would have made him MORE
> exciteable/emotional/etc. if he did NOT have ADHD. Instead, it's taken
> just enough of the edge off for him to be able to stay in focus and on
> task for 'normal' time periods. Doesn't seem to really have reduced his
> energy much, just gives his self-control a little 'oomph'.
>
> Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
> Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
> indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
> children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
> past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
> afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
> some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.

You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"

Dennis

[Joelle]

>You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"

Wow. A couple of posts and not only can you diagnose her son better than her
doctors, you can diagnose her.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Cele]

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:15:58 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"
>
>Dennis

Dennis, CAPD is very real, learning disabilities are very real and
what I'm seeing is a mother who's trying very hard to figure out how
her son's mind works, in order to support and effectively parent him.

Why would that warrant an insult?

Cele

[Cele]

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 19:15:30 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>
>"Cele" > wrote in message
...
>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:19:16 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Istara" > wrote in message
>> >> Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD,
>> >
>> >Not possibble to diagnose that early here in Ireland. Too many other
>> >possibilities.
>> >Better not to drug young children but look for other alternatives.
>> >
>> >
>> >> Maybe it's time to have his dosage re-evaluated again?
>> >
>> >Yeah, drop the lot.
>
>> Hold up, Dennis. It's better not to drug young children
>> *inappropriately*, to be sure. But surely you're not saying that
>> diabetic kids should go without insulin, or that kids with heart
>> transplants should do without anti-rejection drugs? Or that kids with
>> massive infection shouldn't get antibiotics?
>
>No, I am not saying that.
>
>>For a kid with *true*
>> ADHD, as opposed to the sort of bandied-about-facsimile that is so
>> popular, the meds can be every bit that necessary.
>
>I merely pointed out that an ADHD diagnosis was not possible in Ireland for
>a child of that age. I have said why on other occasions over the years. On
>that basis, any drug to treat ADHD woud be inaprpriate.

You also said, "Better not to drug young children but look for other
alternatives." It's that which resulted in my response. I have no idea
what goes on in Ireland. However, while there may be some formal
restriction on whether or not a doctor can apply a diagnosis (although
that would be highly unlikely in a developed country, but hey, as I
said, I don't know boom all about Ireland), that doesn't mean doctors
don't make the diagnosis. It only means they don't write it down. If a
qualified medical professional examines a child and decides the best
Dx is ADHD, you can bet s/he treats on that basis, whatever name is
applied.

For a long time in education in North America we weren't allowed to
use the word 'phonics'. It wasn't the bandwagon of the moment. But
every flipping competent teacher in both English speaking countries
taught phonics. They just called it something else until the pendulum
swung back.

>> *Inappropriate* drugging, on the other hand, is abuse, IMO.
>
>Like I said.
>
>Dennis
>
No. It would be inappropriate to treat a child without ADHD using ADHD
drugs. Whether or not some government recognises a medical condition
doesn't change whether it exists and warrants treatment or not. There
was a time not so long ago when very few doctors recognised a physical
cause for allergies. Allergies were seen as a 'neurotic disorder'. A
few enlightened souls started treating them for physical genesis,
though, and in 1968, I believe it was, histamine release was
discovered. Darned if those guys earlier on hadn't been right - there
IS a physical cause. And now it's medically managed as such. Those
early folks weren't treating allergies with medication inappropriately
just because the majority of their colleagues hadn't yet recognised
the reality of the situation.

Cele

[Cele]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:36:02 -0400, Istara
> wrote:

>
>
>Purchgdss wrote:
>>>Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes
>
><snipped for space>
>
>>Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>~ Dor
>>
>>
>> If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
>> diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
>> extensively.
>>
>
>I've been wondering a little bit about the ADHD diagnosis, recently. He
>actually does display many/most of the "classic" symptoms - inability to
>concentrate/focus for extended periods of time, inability to sit still
>for any appreciable period, etc. According to the pediatrician, when we
>started him on the medication for it, she said it would either make a
>world of difference overnight, if he truly WAS ADHD, or it would make no
>apparent difference whatsoever, if he wasn't. It made such a difference
>the first day he took it that he commented on it himself when he got
>home from school (he was 7, at the time, in first grade).

That's my understanding as well. Be very aware: I'm not a doctor or
medical professional, so anything I say is just opinion, same as
anyone else. I've been a special educator for 25 years and have seen a
bit, for whatever that's worth. I also have a daughter with some
exceptionalities.

I've heard of true ADHD kids describe the medication as 'making my
engine stop revving," and similar analogies. It seems to be that
they're running at a very high gear all the time, and the meds take
them to a more typical and manageable pace. ADHD meds were, last I
looked, stimulants. The typical reaction to stimulants, of course, is
to be highly stimulated. Sensitized to everything around you. On edge,
even. But kids with ADHD, for a reason not fully understood, have
neurology that responds in the opposite way to certain stimulants;
that is, the meds slow them down, or calm them. So if a child responds
to, for example, ritalin, by calming....for a long time, that in and
of itself tended to confirm the diagnosis. Whereas the child who
reacted to ritalin with agitation, or tantrums, or whatever, had some
other problem. This may have changed; I work with a different
population at the moment, but that's what I know was the situation a
very few years ago.

>Recently, though, *I* was diagnosed with a Central Auditory Processing
>Disorder. I did some research on APDs, of course, and found that they
>are frequently mis-diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in children, due to a
>similarity in symptoms - it's difficult and frustrating to try to focus
>on something in school when you can't always understand what the teacher
>is saying, and children with CAPDs frequently have high intelligence but
>accompanied by low-level learning disorders such as mild dyslexia or
>discalcula (sp?).

Dyscalcula. :-)

They may be misdiagnosed, but they do look different to the
experienced eye. Kids with ADHD have tremendous difficulty attending,
even when they want to. They might, for example, find a particular
book very interesting, yet they can't stay with it. THey might be
enjoying a TV show but get up six times to change the lights, get a
snack, walk around the room, etc.

People with CAPD and no other difficulties attend quite well visually.
They can read for hours if they like the story. If they're in a small,
quiet room, such as a testing room, with a single adult and no fan
noise, they do just fine. But give them the same test in a room full
of people with a fan running and some noise from some lights overhead
and a bit of cafeteria clang in the background, and their results
plummet.

What can make diagnosis especially challenging, though (I also have
certification as a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing, so I've
had a bit of extra exposure on this one), is that some people with
CAPD have additional difficulties that, combined with the CAPD, can
make them trickier to figure out. Especially if the CAPD is caused by
some neurologic insult, the same thing can affect other systems. And
of course, it's certainly possible to have both CAPD and ADHD. So the
whole figuring thing is challenging at times. That's where parental
and teacher observations, when done with some knowledge and care, can
really help pin things down. I applaud you for informing yourself and
thinking it all over so carefully. God help the child whose parents
can't or won't pay that kind of attention. Those are the guys who
really struggle as adults.

>He does play video games a lot, if allowed - they are his dad's favorite
>hobby, and I think he sort of sees it as a way to connect with his dad.
>Truthfully, Dad didn't really spend a lot of time with him until he got
>to an age where he was able to do stuff that interested Dad - like
>playing video games. Drives me nuts to see him (my son) playing them,
>sometimes, because it's not at all unusual to walk into his room when he
>has his "freetime" to find the TV going on a show, the radio/CD player
>going on the other side of the room, and him sprawled in the floor
>playing his Gameboy. And he, supposedly, is paying attention to all
>three at the same time. *I* can't pull that one off - although I'm
>coming to realize that it may be due more to my CAPD than to it being
>really difficult for a 'normal' person to do(?), but he seems to thrive
>on it.

An awful lot of kids of this generation seem to be able to do that,
whether or not they're having any difficulties with school or
emotions. In and of itself, I'm not sure how much it tells you. I can
tell you though, that as an adult myself, when I'm seriously, deeply,
long term stressed, I tend to play mindless arcade games. What they do
for me is to shut down several of my mental 'tracks' and allow me to
drift into a place where I can concentrate on the problem. So for me,
in a bizarre kind of way, I guess it's almost a form of meditation.
Whether that has any applicability to anyone else, I leave the reader
to assess. :-)

>> Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
>> be a GOOD thing).
>>
>> Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.
>>
>> Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
>> and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.
>>
>> You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
>> need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
>> Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
>> you can reassure him that YOU are in control.

I agree with Christine that you're doing well to be firm and
consistent. Nothing you described seemed excessive to me. I think it's
that kind of firm parenting, administered with love, of course, that
helps kids know who's in control. Many of the kids I've seen who are
behaviourally out of control are in fact very scared children; they
know darned well that they have too much power for their own good.
They seem to feel unprotected - 'If Mom/Dad can't handle *me*, how
will they keep me safe from bad things?' So I think you're on the
right track.

I agree also that bullying *can* be a sign of insecurity. It can also
be the sign of a kid who thinks power is the way to have his wants
realised. Those are basically the two kinds we tend to see in my line
of work. Oh, there's also lack of self control, but that's kind of a
subset of one or the other, really, except in cases of significant
brain damage. Assuming we're talking about premeditated bullying here,
rather than just explosions with shrapnel. Anyway, sounds like yours
is more likely the first situation than the second, alright.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents.........
>> Christine
>
>Your two cents are at least a dollar's worth of things to think about. :-)
>
>Fourth grade, in our school, is REALLY different from third - they are
>changing classes for different subjects, for the first time, and are
>required to be very organized, keeping everything in specific order in
>their notebooks for each class, etc. I'm suspecting that this, with the
>other stuff at home, may be contributing to the problems.

Grade four is a watershed year for a *lot* of kids. I can't tell you
how many referrals are initiated in around October or November of the
grade four year. In English speaking North America, that's when things
get much more academic, and the kids are expected to have their basic
skills, including structures they've been taught over the past three
years. It's also not uncommon for specialist teachers in some subjects
to surface for the first time in that year's programming. So while it
might not make you feel any better, you've got a *lot* of company.

>I haven't been the best example of organization at home, over the years,
>I know, though I'm trying to improve. I grew up in too big a family (8
>kids plus parent/step-parent) living in too small a house (3 bedrooms),
>so was used to things always being cluttered up from too little space.
>Our house, now, is rarely truly dirty, but it does get pretty
>clutter-messy at times. I'm working on it, but still have a ways to go.

I bet you learned a lot about keeping perspective and social dynamics,
though. :-)

>What I'm getting out of your 2 cents is to keep doing what I'm doing
>(regardless what my Mom thinks of me being 'so strict' :-) ), keep
>trying to improve my own organizational skills and help him learn them,
>and keep spending as much time as I can with him. And check into getting
>him evaluated for the APD, once I have medical insurance again to cover
>the cost. Yes?

I'm not Christine, but hell, yeah, that's what I'd say, too. I
wouldn't go nuts with the organisational skills. Do your best, but
don't take it to a place where it's adding crazy making stress. That
won't help. I'm a bit like you, in that I'm a natural scatterbrain (I
prefer to think of it as the absent minded professor syndrome, even if
I don't have a PhD yet! LOL) and I also have a daughter with assorted
learning difficulties. Instead of trying exclusively to change my own
well entrenched patterns, I also taught her some self organisation
skills that I have learned to save my ass from complete incompetency
at work. :-) So now she, like me, is a listmaker, and she puts things
that have to go to school in front of the bedroom door where she'll
trip over them so she won't forget them, and so forth. That way, while
I tried to give her a bit more structure than came naturally to me,
she also learned some skills to cope with life as it is.

>Thanks for the observations - I know I don't always have a balanced view
>of discipline with my son, and it helps to get other people's
>opinions/ovservations from time to time. My Dad (birth as opposed to
>step) was an extremely domineering sort with a very heavy hand, and I
>have a tendency to err on the over-lenient side in trying to avoid being
>harmfully harsh, like he was. But I'm also acutely aware that a parent
>can do more harm than good by being TOO lenient, too. It's not an easy
>balance to find, for me.

If you ever find a parent who tells you that's a piece of cake, I'll
show you a bald faced liar. :-) Or the parent of a child not yet out
of diapers. Anyway, your earlier description of your discipline
sounded about right to me.

>I try to avoid spankings, for instance, whenever possible, but have set
>rules about when my son WILL get one - such as for fighting in school
>(except in self defense), or when he pulls something that could be
>dangerous to himself or others. And I've made sure he knows what will
>get him spanked. The rare times he breaks one of the 'spanking rules', I
>think my son gets more upset about the IDEA of getting a spanking than
>about the actual spanking itself - because I usually end up crying right
>along with him, the whole time I'm 'administering justice'. I won't use
>anything but my hand on his backside - it would be too easy to do injury
>any other way, as I saw more than once as a child - but it's still
>upsetting.
>
>I sometimes wish kids came with Owners' Manuals, you know? It would sure
>make them easier to raise. Maybe. :-) Thanks again.

Oh yeah. But mine would've needed quite a few volumes...and they'd've
been awfully heavy.....

LOL

Good luck.

Cele

[Istara]

denanson wrote:
> "Istara" > wrote in message
>
>
>>I've been thinking about how to respond to Dennis's observation...
>
>
> But this reply is to Celia's post.
>

Yep. Primarily because I had been thinking about your post while reading
hers, and was responding to both.


>
>>I'm pretty well convinced that my son does have ADHD, at least
>>mild-to-moderately. Our pediatrician is of a "wait and see" mind on
>>non-critical issues, does NOT like to over-medicate a child, and has
>>been very picky and fussy about my son's diagnosis and treatment. We
>>keep a regular watch on his behavior at school and home, so that we can
>>spot any sudden or unexplained changes in behavior that might (or might
>>not) be related to the ADHD, and especially so since his dad and I
>>separated.
>>
>>I did NOT want to medicate him, initially - I'd heard of and observed
>>some pretty disturbing side effects from some of the drugs used for it.
>>But... My youngest brother was/is ADHD, my son's dad has ADD, and it
>>does tend to 'run' in families. According to what I've read over the
>>last couple of years, a child is something like 30% more likely than
>>average to have either one of these disorders if one parent has it in
>>their immediate family (as with one of their siblings) and can be as
>>much as 50-60% more likely than average to have it if both parents have
>>it in the immediate family, or if one of the child's parents has the
>>disorder.
>>
>>The particular medication my son is on is a fairly low-dosage extended
>>release med, taken once a day, and it's out of his system again within
>>10-12 hours. I've noticed none of the side-effects I saw in my brother,
>>20 years ago, or even in the neighbor's grandson (my son's age, on a
>>different med), the past year or two - not even mildly. And, according
>>to the pediatrician, the stuff would have made him MORE
>>exciteable/emotional/etc. if he did NOT have ADHD. Instead, it's taken
>>just enough of the edge off for him to be able to stay in focus and on
>>task for 'normal' time periods. Doesn't seem to really have reduced his
>>energy much, just gives his self-control a little 'oomph'.
>>
>>Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
>>Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
>>indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
>>children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
>>past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
>>afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
>>some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.
>
>
> You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you so"
>

Possibly, to someone who doesn't know me well. Then again, *you* don't,
do you?

I'm not a doctor of any sort, nor a college graduate, nor much of
anything (yet) beyond a career housewife and mother still learning how
to be an independent, responsible family provider and single parent.
But I HAVE spent much of my adult life studying folk medicine, biology,
zoology, and several other 'ology' subjects as hobby interests. And my
personal physician, once you'd shown him a picture and had him pull my
file in order to remind him of who I am, would probably laugh at your
"hypochondiac" diagnosis. He sees me once a year for a general check-up
- mainly because he sends me postcards to remind me that it's time for
them - and *might* see me about once every three years for illness or
injury. When he DOES see me for something out of the ordinary, he's
learned that my judgement about my health is usually bang on and all
he's doing is confirming whatever I've already figured the problem to be
and prescribing treatment for it because I haven't the authority to do
so for myself.

As far as treatment for my son goes, or my potential for encouraging him
to be a hypochondriac by example... He's been in public school for five
years, now, with the school year split into quarters. He's missed
perfect attendance awards three times out of twenty during those five
years and last week, for the FIRST time, the school nurse had to call me
to come pick him up for a stomach ache. She was genuinely concerned
because my son is one of the few children in the school that she has
never seen before for anything other than the normal screenings that
they do in her office on ALL children.

It turned out that the stomach ache was apparently from stress. His
teachers and the school administrator had made such a big deal out of
the bullying thing that he psyched himself into 'tummy troubles.'

BTW... It turns out, after talking to the kids - both my son and the
other boy involved in the 'bullying' incident - that the two boys had
just gotten into a verbal tiff with each other, and exchanged "I don't
like you anymore, leave me alone or I'll hit you" threats, in the boys'
bathroom. Teacher walked in about the time my son was giving his half of
the exchange, didn't catch the other boy's part, and sent my son for
write-up on it. The boys have since apologized to each other, without
grown-up prompting, the other boy admitting it was as much his fault as
my son's and that he'd done as much 'picking on' as he got, and they're
best buddies again.

> Dennis
>
>
You're entitled to your own opinions, and I did ask for them. So thank
you for giving yours. My only request is, next time, try to be more
considered and less personally aggressive about it? Or, if you have to
be nasty about it, try to at least get enough background to make the
nastiness on target. Attack the facts, not the person. Works better that
way.

~ Dor

[Joelle]

>And my
>personal physician, once you'd shown him a picture and had him pull my
>file in order to remind him of who I am, would probably laugh at your
>"hypochondiac" diagnosis.

Hi Dor, one thing you should learn here quick is that you really don't need to
defend yourself against accusations like the above. Actually you don't need to
defend yourself, period.

You gotta take all the advice here for what's its worth. If it fits, good. If
it doesn't fit, throw it out. If a LOT of people are saying the same thing and
you don't like it, you might want to step back and think about it. But if one
guy throws out "hypocondriac"...well it will help if you get to know Dennis, he
has some good advice but he also has a particular world view and anything that
doesn't fit his world view, well it doesn't exist.

But a general rule of thumb, defending yourself is either unnecesary or
useless. :-)

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Istara]

Cele wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:28:03 -0400, Istara
> > wrote:
>
> [snipping carefully thought out, well reasoned post to which I have
> little to add....]
>
>
>>Prob is, to me... Having recently had the Central Auditory Processing
>>Disorder (CAPD) diagnosis on myself, and with the available info
>>indicating that it is sometimes misdiagnosed as ADD/ADHD in small
>>children, AND knowing that my son has had ear/hearing problems in the
>>past, I'm planning to have him screened for the CAPD as soon as I can
>>afford the cost of the screening - it may be a contributing factor to
>>some of the behavior problems that we've always put down to the ADHD.
>>
>>~ Dor
>
>
> It's extremely well established in the research that CAPD is much more
> prevalent in kids with significant histories of recurrent ear
> infections. Even without the other factors you describe, all of which
> are well worth considering, if he's ever had tubes, CAPD is definitely
> something to check.
>
> Cele

He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes" which,
according to the ENT, are semi-permanent. Went a year between each set,
hoping he'd outgrown the problem that made them necessary to begin with,
but each time was just a year of almost constant ear infections and
fluid build-up problems.

I know he's "hyper" - he's responded too well to the ADHD med for me to
doubt it, but some of the emotional outbursts I see in him even still
are really similar to stuff I remember from my own childhood. It COULD
be due to the ADHD, but it could as easily be due to simple
misunderstanding of what was said or intended.

I have a lot of trouble telling when someone is joking, at times, if
there is no obvious "punch line" or I don't know the person well enough
to be able to read their facial expressions. I used to get hurt feelings
a LOT as a child, because of it, and it was always put off as me just
being too emotional or overly sensitive. Now my son is getting into
trouble because he's "overly sensitive" to what other people say, and
too emotional, supposedly because he has ADHD.

Maybe Dennis is right and I'm overreacting but, then again, maybe he's
not. I'll feel better having my son screened and knowing for sure, it
won't hurt him a bit, and I'd rather be proven wrong and overreacting
than not have it checked and eventually have my son find out when he's
40 that he has a CAPD that could have been diagnosed and dealt with
early on. It would have made MY life a lot easier to know about it early
on, that there was a physical cause for my always misunderstanding what
people said and/or meant, instead of spending so many years thinking
there was just "something wrong with me" in a psychological or emotional
sense. It plays hell with a person's self-esteem.

Thanks for the observations and suggestions - they're all appreciated.

~ Dor

[Istara]

Cele wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:36:02 -0400, Istara
> > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>Purchgdss wrote:
>>
>>>>Okay, I have a question. My son is 9, in 4th grade, has ADHD, takes
>>
>><snipped for space>
>>
>>>Thanks in advance.
>>>
>>>>~ Dor
>>>
>>>
>>>If he's playing video games to the extent you mention he may be wrongly
>>>diagnosed. True ADHD can't focus for long enough periods to play video games
>>>extensively.
>>>
>>
>>I've been wondering a little bit about the ADHD diagnosis, recently. He
>>actually does display many/most of the "classic" symptoms - inability to
>>concentrate/focus for extended periods of time, inability to sit still
>>for any appreciable period, etc. According to the pediatrician, when we
>>started him on the medication for it, she said it would either make a
>>world of difference overnight, if he truly WAS ADHD, or it would make no
>>apparent difference whatsoever, if he wasn't. It made such a difference
>>the first day he took it that he commented on it himself when he got
>>home from school (he was 7, at the time, in first grade).
>
>
> That's my understanding as well. Be very aware: I'm not a doctor or
> medical professional, so anything I say is just opinion, same as
> anyone else. I've been a special educator for 25 years and have seen a
> bit, for whatever that's worth. I also have a daughter with some
> exceptionalities.
>
> I've heard of true ADHD kids describe the medication as 'making my
> engine stop revving," and similar analogies. It seems to be that

They were evaluated daily for conduct, on a color scale. Green for a
good day, no problems; Yellow for a day when they got reprimanded once
for something but were otherwise okay; Red for two reprimands and they
lost recess time; black for major infractions that warranted being sent
to the principal's office. The way he put it, that first day, was, "Mom,
this Green Day medicine is GREAT! I had green all day, I got all my
class work done, and the teacher said she thought I was glued to my
chair 'cause I didn't fidget much all day!"

> they're running at a very high gear all the time, and the meds take
> them to a more typical and manageable pace. ADHD meds were, last I
> looked, stimulants. The typical reaction to stimulants, of course, is
> to be highly stimulated. Sensitized to everything around you. On edge,
> even. But kids with ADHD, for a reason not fully understood, have
> neurology that responds in the opposite way to certain stimulants;
> that is, the meds slow them down, or calm them. So if a child responds
> to, for example, ritalin, by calming....for a long time, that in and
> of itself tended to confirm the diagnosis. Whereas the child who
> reacted to ritalin with agitation, or tantrums, or whatever, had some
> other problem. This may have changed; I work with a different
> population at the moment, but that's what I know was the situation a
> very few years ago.

This is still the way it is. The pediatrician said the diagnosis would
be considered tentative until we saw how he reacted to the meds, but
that it would be obvious within a day or two whether it was right or
wrong, by his behavior.

>>Recently, though, *I* was diagnosed with a Central Auditory Processing
>>Disorder. I did some research on APDs, of course, and found that they
>>are frequently mis-diagnosed as ADD or ADHD in children, due to a
>>similarity in symptoms - it's difficult and frustrating to try to focus
>>on something in school when you can't always understand what the teacher
>>is saying, and children with CAPDs frequently have high intelligence but
>>accompanied by low-level learning disorders such as mild dyslexia or
>>discalcula (sp?).
>
>
> Dyscalcula. :-)

Thank you. :-) I knew I had it mis-spelled, but wasn't sure how. To me,
it's always been the "pocket calculator syndrome." The one in my head
works better than the one I have to punch with my fingers, because my
fingers sometimes don't punch the numbers my brain says they should.
Remove the fingers' involvement, and the calculator works just fine.

>
> They may be misdiagnosed, but they do look different to the
> experienced eye. Kids with ADHD have tremendous difficulty attending,
> even when they want to. They might, for example, find a particular
> book very interesting, yet they can't stay with it. THey might be
> enjoying a TV show but get up six times to change the lights, get a
> snack, walk around the room, etc.

This is my son to a T.

>
> People with CAPD and no other difficulties attend quite well visually.
> They can read for hours if they like the story. If they're in a small,
> quiet room, such as a testing room, with a single adult and no fan
> noise, they do just fine. But give them the same test in a room full
> of people with a fan running and some noise from some lights overhead
> and a bit of cafeteria clang in the background, and their results
> plummet.

And, yes, this is me. :-) Overhead flourescent lights are very
irritating to me, even more so than background conversations, at times.
Conversations have pauses, but the stupid lights just go right on
buzzing and buzzing. Did you know that a flourescent light with a bad
ballast buzzes at almost exactly the same pitch as an "Eye of the Storm"
plasma light, for about 24 hours before the ballast goes out? :-)

>
> What can make diagnosis especially challenging, though (I also have
> certification as a teacher of the deaf and hard of hearing, so I've
> had a bit of extra exposure on this one), is that some people with
> CAPD have additional difficulties that, combined with the CAPD, can
> make them trickier to figure out. Especially if the CAPD is caused by
> some neurologic insult, the same thing can affect other systems. And
> of course, it's certainly possible to have both CAPD and ADHD. So the
> whole figuring thing is challenging at times. That's where parental
> and teacher observations, when done with some knowledge and care, can
> really help pin things down. I applaud you for informing yourself and
> thinking it all over so carefully. God help the child whose parents
> can't or won't pay that kind of attention. Those are the guys who
> really struggle as adults.
>
>
>>He does play video games a lot, if allowed - they are his dad's favorite
>>hobby, and I think he sort of sees it as a way to connect with his dad.
>>Truthfully, Dad didn't really spend a lot of time with him until he got
>>to an age where he was able to do stuff that interested Dad - like
>>playing video games. Drives me nuts to see him (my son) playing them,
>>sometimes, because it's not at all unusual to walk into his room when he
>>has his "freetime" to find the TV going on a show, the radio/CD player
>>going on the other side of the room, and him sprawled in the floor
>>playing his Gameboy. And he, supposedly, is paying attention to all
>>three at the same time. *I* can't pull that one off - although I'm
>>coming to realize that it may be due more to my CAPD than to it being
>>really difficult for a 'normal' person to do(?), but he seems to thrive
>>on it.
>
>
> An awful lot of kids of this generation seem to be able to do that,
> whether or not they're having any difficulties with school or
> emotions. In and of itself, I'm not sure how much it tells you. I can
> tell you though, that as an adult myself, when I'm seriously, deeply,
> long term stressed, I tend to play mindless arcade games. What they do
> for me is to shut down several of my mental 'tracks' and allow me to
> drift into a place where I can concentrate on the problem. So for me,
> in a bizarre kind of way, I guess it's almost a form of meditation.
> Whether that has any applicability to anyone else, I leave the reader
> to assess. :-)
>
>
>>>Perhaps his issues are more emotional than physical (why the counsellor would
>>>be a GOOD thing).
>>>
>>>Bullying is sign of insecurity. Feel stronger by making others feel weaker.
>>>
>>>Combined with the other behaviors and your current circumstances (both within
>>>and outside of your control) I'd say he has good reason to be insecure.
>>>
>>>You are doing well in setting firm limits and expectations of behavior. Kids
>>>need structure and stability and consistency (mixed with a LOT of love).
>>>Wouldn't hurt to do a little introspection into your parenting and see where
>>>you can reassure him that YOU are in control.
>
>
> I agree with Christine that you're doing well to be firm and
> consistent. Nothing you described seemed excessive to me. I think it's
> that kind of firm parenting, administered with love, of course, that
> helps kids know who's in control. Many of the kids I've seen who are
> behaviourally out of control are in fact very scared children; they
> know darned well that they have too much power for their own good.
> They seem to feel unprotected - 'If Mom/Dad can't handle *me*, how
> will they keep me safe from bad things?' So I think you're on the
> right track.
>
> I agree also that bullying *can* be a sign of insecurity. It can also
> be the sign of a kid who thinks power is the way to have his wants
> realised. Those are basically the two kinds we tend to see in my line
> of work. Oh, there's also lack of self control, but that's kind of a
> subset of one or the other, really, except in cases of significant
> brain damage. Assuming we're talking about premeditated bullying here,
> rather than just explosions with shrapnel. Anyway, sounds like yours
> is more likely the first situation than the second, alright.

After a lot of talking with my son, what the school immediately termed
"bullying" looks to me like just a spat between two friends, blown all
out of proportion by the adults around them. When I finally managed to
get him to tell me his views of what happened, a couple of days after
the incident, he says that he and the other boy had been picking at each
other for days, and finally got to the point where they were both
telling each other "I don't like you anymore. Leave me alone or I'll
punch you." And a teacher walked into the boys' bathroom just in time to
hear my son say this to the other boy, after the other boy had said it
to him. Both boys, without prompting from adults, apologized to each
other this week, the other boy admitted to my son that it was as much
his own fault because he was picking too, and they're now best buddies
again.

>
>>>Just my 2 cents.........
>>>Christine
>>
>>Your two cents are at least a dollar's worth of things to think about. :-)
>>
>>Fourth grade, in our school, is REALLY different from third - they are
>>changing classes for different subjects, for the first time, and are
>>required to be very organized, keeping everything in specific order in
>>their notebooks for each class, etc. I'm suspecting that this, with the
>>other stuff at home, may be contributing to the problems.
>
>
> Grade four is a watershed year for a *lot* of kids. I can't tell you
> how many referrals are initiated in around October or November of the
> grade four year. In English speaking North America, that's when things
> get much more academic, and the kids are expected to have their basic
> skills, including structures they've been taught over the past three
> years. It's also not uncommon for specialist teachers in some subjects
> to surface for the first time in that year's programming. So while it
> might not make you feel any better, you've got a *lot* of company.
>
>
>>I haven't been the best example of organization at home, over the years,
>>I know, though I'm trying to improve. I grew up in too big a family (8
>>kids plus parent/step-parent) living in too small a house (3 bedrooms),
>>so was used to things always being cluttered up from too little space.
>>Our house, now, is rarely truly dirty, but it does get pretty
>>clutter-messy at times. I'm working on it, but still have a ways to go.
>
>
> I bet you learned a lot about keeping perspective and social dynamics,
> though. :-)

Oh yeah! And non-injurious methods of discouraging younger siblings from
digging into one's personal belongings. I still keep cayenne pepper in
the kitchen, and use it as often for behavior modification (most
recently with the dog) as for cooking! (snicker)

>
>>What I'm getting out of your 2 cents is to keep doing what I'm doing
>>(regardless what my Mom thinks of me being 'so strict' :-) ), keep
>>trying to improve my own organizational skills and help him learn them,
>>and keep spending as much time as I can with him. And check into getting
>>him evaluated for the APD, once I have medical insurance again to cover
>>the cost. Yes?
>
>
> I'm not Christine, but hell, yeah, that's what I'd say, too. I
> wouldn't go nuts with the organisational skills. Do your best, but
> don't take it to a place where it's adding crazy making stress. That
> won't help. I'm a bit like you, in that I'm a natural scatterbrain (I
> prefer to think of it as the absent minded professor syndrome, even if
> I don't have a PhD yet! LOL) and I also have a daughter with assorted
> learning difficulties. Instead of trying exclusively to change my own
> well entrenched patterns, I also taught her some self organisation
> skills that I have learned to save my ass from complete incompetency
> at work. :-)

The heck of it is, I'm so orderly and organized at work, it's almost
scary. If things aren't exactly where they should be, so that I can just
reach out and pick up whatever I need without having to look where I'm
reaching, I get aggravated and KNOW someone's been messing around in my
work area. At home, though... You'd never know the same person lived in
my house as worked in my work area. As efficient and organized as I am
at work, I am that much inefficient and disorganized at home, I think.
And I've never been able to really figure out WHY - you'd think a person
would be pretty much the same at home as at work, wouldn't you?

> So now she, like me, is a listmaker, and she puts things
> that have to go to school in front of the bedroom door where she'll
> trip over them so she won't forget them, and so forth. That way, while
> I tried to give her a bit more structure than came naturally to me,
> she also learned some skills to cope with life as it is.
>

I've finally gotten my son into the habit of putting his schoolbag and
shoes right next to the front door every evening, so it's right there
where it can't be missed in the morning. He gets "reward points" for
doing it without having to be reminded, then can trade points in for
things like renting a video or getting McDonald's for supper, when he
has enough. It's a new system, his dad and I have been working out as we
go along, and seems to be helping somewhat.

>
>>Thanks for the observations - I know I don't always have a balanced view
>>of discipline with my son, and it helps to get other people's
>>opinions/ovservations from time to time. My Dad (birth as opposed to
>>step) was an extremely domineering sort with a very heavy hand, and I
>>have a tendency to err on the over-lenient side in trying to avoid being
>>harmfully harsh, like he was. But I'm also acutely aware that a parent
>>can do more harm than good by being TOO lenient, too. It's not an easy
>>balance to find, for me.
>
>
> If you ever find a parent who tells you that's a piece of cake, I'll
> show you a bald faced liar. :-) Or the parent of a child not yet out
> of diapers. Anyway, your earlier description of your discipline
> sounded about right to me.
>
>
>>I try to avoid spankings, for instance, whenever possible, but have set
>>rules about when my son WILL get one - such as for fighting in school
>>(except in self defense), or when he pulls something that could be
>>dangerous to himself or others. And I've made sure he knows what will
>>get him spanked. The rare times he breaks one of the 'spanking rules', I
>>think my son gets more upset about the IDEA of getting a spanking than
>>about the actual spanking itself - because I usually end up crying right
>>along with him, the whole time I'm 'administering justice'. I won't use
>>anything but my hand on his backside - it would be too easy to do injury
>>any other way, as I saw more than once as a child - but it's still
>>upsetting.
>>
>>I sometimes wish kids came with Owners' Manuals, you know? It would sure
>>make them easier to raise. Maybe. :-) Thanks again.
>
>
> Oh yeah. But mine would've needed quite a few volumes...and they'd've
> been awfully heavy.....
>
> LOL
>
> Good luck.
>
> Cele

Thanks. I think we'll be okay - I just get the vapors sometimes and
start doubting myself. I've been too used to having someone else "in
control" of things, and am still learning to trust my own judgement on
stuff. I'm getting better at it, and even negative comments help - they
remind me that I shouldn't take things too seriously sometimes. :-)

~ Dor

[denanson]

"Istara" > wrote in message

Some snipped

> > I've heard of true ADHD kids describe the medication as 'making my
> > engine stop revving," and similar analogies. It seems to be that
>
> They were evaluated daily for conduct, on a color scale. Green for a
> good day, no problems; Yellow for a day when they got reprimanded once
> for something but were otherwise okay; Red for two reprimands and they
> lost recess time; black for major infractions that warranted being sent
> to the principal's office. The way he put it, that first day, was, "Mom,
> this Green Day medicine is GREAT! I had green all day, I got all my
> class work done, and the teacher said she thought I was glued to my
> chair 'cause I didn't fidget much all day!"

Are you seriously trying to say that a school teacher had major input into
what and how much medication should be taken?
Who decides what is "good" behavior and on what basis is it judged?
What warrents a reprimand?
Sheesh! A crap inificient teacher who has no control over a class of normal,
active 9 year olds gets to increase their medication?

> This is still the way it is. The pediatrician said the diagnosis would
> be considered tentative until we saw how he reacted to the meds, but
> that it would be obvious within a day or two whether it was right or
> wrong, by his behavior.

********! If the child is drugged up their behaviour is bound to change.

> > They may be misdiagnosed, but they do look different to the
> > experienced eye. Kids with ADHD have tremendous difficulty attending,
> > even when they want to. They might, for example, find a particular
> > book very interesting, yet they can't stay with it. THey might be
> > enjoying a TV show but get up six times to change the lights, get a
> > snack, walk around the room, etc.
>
> This is my son to a T.

Not what you said before. You said he sits in front of a computer game for
hours.
I think that you may be changing your story to suit the "diagnosis"

>
> they were both
> telling each other "I don't like you anymore. Leave me alone or I'll
> punch you." And a teacher walked into the boys' bathroom just in time to
> hear my son say this to the other boy,

Was it the same teacher who wants to drug your child?

>
> I still keep cayenne pepper in
> the kitchen, and use it as often for behavior modification (most
> recently with the dog)

And someone thinks your son is a bully?
I wonder where he might have learnt it.

>
> At home, though... You'd never know the same person lived in
> my house as worked in my work area. As efficient and organized as I am
> at work, I am that much inefficient and disorganized at home,

and then

> I've finally gotten my son into the habit of putting his schoolbag and
> shoes right next to the front door every evening, so it's right there
> where it can't be missed in the morning. He gets "reward points" for
> doing it without having to be reminded, then can trade points in for
> things like renting a video or getting McDonald's for supper,

Why should he when, in your own words, you live in a "disorganised" and
"inefficient" home environment.
Why not lead by example then you can just ask your son to keep his school
bag and shoes in a particular place.
Again, who is the bully here?

Dennis

[denanson]

"Cele" > wrote in message
>
> Why would that warrant an insult?

You call that an insult?

Dennis

[denanson]

"Cele" > wrote in message

, if he's ever had tubes, CAPD is definitely
> something to check.

Somethnig makes me think that I know what this response is going to be.

Dennis

[denanson]

"Istara" > wrote in message

>
> He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes"

Why am I not surprised.

>
> Maybe Dennis is right and I'm overreacting but, then again, maybe he's
> not. I'll feel better having my son screened and knowing for sure,

But you still don't know for sure.

> it
> won't hurt him a bit,

Yes it will

It would have made MY life a lot easier to know about it early
> on, that there was a physical cause for my always misunderstanding what
> people said and/or meant, instead of spending so many years thinking
> there was just "something wrong with me" in a psychological or emotional
> sense. It plays hell with a person's self-esteem.

So what do you think it may be doing to a nine year old to be hauled in
front of one so called "expert" after another all of whom, by your own
admission, have come up with differing diagnosis?

What do YOU yourself think?
Did you start the whole proceedure off yourself because of his behaviour or
did the suggestion come from school? Your family doctor? family? friends?
Go back to the begining for me please.

Dennis

[denanson]

"Joelle" > wrote in message

> >You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you
so"
>
> Wow. A couple of posts and not only can you diagnose her son better than
her
> doctors, you can diagnose her.

I did not diagnose anything.
I said "You sound like"

Please read more carefully.

Dennis

[denanson]

"Joelle" > wrote in message

>Dennis, ......... has a particular world view and anything that
> doesn't fit his world view, well it doesn't exist.

Better a world view than a blinkered view :-p

Dennis

[Joelle]

>> I still keep cayenne pepper in
>> the kitchen, and use it as often for behavior modification (most
>> recently with the dog)

Oh my gosh. I missed this? You use cayenne pepper for BEHAVIOR
MODIFICATION???

This is wrong. I'm sorry . It is wrong wrong wrong. It's wrong for the dog,
nevermind a kid.

I had a babysitter that abused me and hot sauce was only one of the ways she
did it.

It's wrong wrong wrong and you can't convince me otherwise.

OMG

Horrified...

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Istara]

denanson wrote:
> "Istara" > wrote in message
>
> Some snipped
>
>
>>>I've heard of true ADHD kids describe the medication as 'making my
>>>engine stop revving," and similar analogies. It seems to be that
>>
>>They were evaluated daily for conduct, on a color scale. Green for a
>>good day, no problems; Yellow for a day when they got reprimanded once
>>for something but were otherwise okay; Red for two reprimands and they
>>lost recess time; black for major infractions that warranted being sent
>>to the principal's office. The way he put it, that first day, was, "Mom,
>>this Green Day medicine is GREAT! I had green all day, I got all my
>>class work done, and the teacher said she thought I was glued to my
>>chair 'cause I didn't fidget much all day!"
>
>
> Are you seriously trying to say that a school teacher had major input into
> what and how much medication should be taken?

His school teacher, the school nurse, the school counselor, and others
who dealt with him at school, had input in that they kept a log of daily
behavioral observations on him and forwarded the information to his
pediatrician, who correlated it with daily observation logs kept by
myself, my son's father, and other family members and non-family members
who came in contact with him on a regular basis, along with data gleaned
from a pretty extensive physical exam, lab work ups and HER observations
of his medical and behavioral history, and the observations and
considered opinions of a child psychologist and a family counselor who
had several meetings with my son alone and with my son, my self, and my
son's father as a family unit, before deciding on probably diagnosis and
proposed course of treatment.

I won't ask what kind of irresponsible twit you think I am, as it's
pretty obvious by your responses.

> Who decides what is "good" behavior and on what basis is it judged?
> What warrents a reprimand?

Unfortunately, the school teachers and administrators, in the school
setting.

> Sheesh! A crap inificient teacher who has no control over a class of normal,
> active 9 year olds gets to increase their medication?

Nope, fortunately not. All they can do is call home, write letters to
the parents, and suggest that we may want to have him re-evaluated.
Which re-evaluation is something his pediatrician insists on at least
every six months, to make certain that the Rx is neither over- or
under-strengthed for the need.

>
>
>>This is still the way it is. The pediatrician said the diagnosis would
>>be considered tentative until we saw how he reacted to the meds, but
>>that it would be obvious within a day or two whether it was right or
>>wrong, by his behavior.
>
>
> ********! If the child is drugged up their behaviour is bound to change.

You're right, behavior is bound to change. With the medications in use,
at least in the U.S., at this time, a child with a true Dx of ADHD will
be visibly calmer and more in control of their emotional responses when
taking Adderall and/or similar drugs, while a child without ADHD will be
visibly more agitated and out of control.

>
>
>>> They may be misdiagnosed, but they do look different to the
>>>experienced eye. Kids with ADHD have tremendous difficulty attending,
>>>even when they want to. They might, for example, find a particular
>>>book very interesting, yet they can't stay with it. THey might be
>>>enjoying a TV show but get up six times to change the lights, get a
>>>snack, walk around the room, etc.
>>
>>This is my son to a T.
>
>
> Not what you said before. You said he sits in front of a computer game for
> hours.

No, I said "he'd LIVE by the video game system, if allowed to do so, and
his time is already restricted on school days due to homework, time
constraints, and me insisting we spend at least a LITTLE bit of family
time together every day." If you'll check the original post, you'll see
this is a direct quote. If you'll check one of the other responses I
made to comments, you'll also note that he usually has at least the
radio/cd player going as well, and sometimes a TV show on top of it.

The video game may run all evening, if allowed, but he certainly doesn't
sit with it the whole time - he's up every few minutes to go to the
bathroom, play in the sink, play with the dog, ask what's for supper,
check out the fridge, look for a snack, find out when the next trip to
the video store will be, etc, ad infinitum. And yet he's always zipping
back to the video game to play for a few more minutes, every second or
third orbit through the house. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you
needed that much detail to justify a diagnosis made by competent medical
personnel 3 years past.

> I think that you may be changing your story to suit the "diagnosis"
>
>
>> they were both
>>telling each other "I don't like you anymore. Leave me alone or I'll
>>punch you." And a teacher walked into the boys' bathroom just in time to
>>hear my son say this to the other boy,
>
>
> Was it the same teacher who wants to drug your child?

I'm not sure how you got the impression that the teacher wants to drug
my child. She doesn't, that I'm aware of, and if what I've written in
earlier posts gave that impression, then I apologize for misleading
anyone. I don't know which teacher came in on the tail end of their
argument - the school official that called me about the incident didn't
say which teacher it was, and it didn't occur to me to ask.

>
>
>> I still keep cayenne pepper in
>>the kitchen, and use it as often for behavior modification (most
>>recently with the dog)
>
>
> And someone thinks your son is a bully?
> I wonder where he might have learnt it.
>

Ever have a dog tip the trash, repeatedly, when you're out of the house
and can't catch them at it? Mix a little cayenne pepper in water, spritz
it on top of the trash, and leave it where the animal can get to it.
After a time or two of their nose getting stung, they stop getting into
the trash. It's harmless to the dog (at least, our veterinarian claims
it is, but who is he to know, he's just an animal doctor?), inexpensive,
and very effective. We used a similar method to break my 14 year old
step brother from stealing cigarettes out of people's open packs and
smoking them in the bathroom, then denying he'd had anything to do with
it. Mixed up cayenne water, dipped the end of a couple of cigarettes in
it, let them dry, and then slipped them into an open pack in a position
where they'd be the most accessible, and left it lying about unguarded.
Next morning, dear step-brother was heard to be coughing, gagging and
running a LOT of water in the bathroom sink. And cigarettes stopped
disappearing out of open packs.

Interstingly, cayenne is also good for cold feet. Sprinkle a little in
your socks or slippers on a cold morning and it will help your feet to
keep warm - capsicum, the active chemical that gives cayenne it's spicy
heat, encourages blood circulation.

>
>> At home, though... You'd never know the same person lived in
>>my house as worked in my work area. As efficient and organized as I am
>>at work, I am that much inefficient and disorganized at home,
>
>
> and then
>
>
>>I've finally gotten my son into the habit of putting his schoolbag and
>>shoes right next to the front door every evening, so it's right there
>>where it can't be missed in the morning. He gets "reward points" for
>>doing it without having to be reminded, then can trade points in for
>>things like renting a video or getting McDonald's for supper,
>
>
> Why should he when, in your own words, you live in a "disorganised" and
> "inefficient" home environment.
> Why not lead by example then you can just ask your son to keep his school
> bag and shoes in a particular place.
> Again, who is the bully here?
>
> Dennis
>
>
Go back and read again, Dennis. I've made note that I have been working
on improving my organization and efficiency skills at home. It's a long
haul, but I am getting there.

As far as who the bully is, you've been displaying more "bully" behavior
than I have, on this. Have I done something to you specifically that's
gotten you so honked off, or are you just having a bad week? I don't
expect everyone in the world to like me or to be nice to me, but you
don't appear to have even bothered to read what I've posted completely,
just picked out the bits that you wanted to see, decided I was a worthy
target for aggression, and started firing away. What's the deal with that?

~ Dor

[Joelle]

>ixed up cayenne water, dipped the end of a couple of cigarettes in
>it, let them dry, and then slipped them into an open pack in a position
>where they'd be the most accessible, and left it lying about unguarded.

Okay, maybe I overreacted. I still think it's a little harsh for the dog. And
maybe you shouldn't be advocating pepepr for "behavior modification" on a
parenting ng, might give people the wrong idea, not just about you, but they
may think, "well she does it so I guess it's okay."

It's not.

Joelle
The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
Augustine
Joelle

[Istara]

denanson wrote:

> "Istara" > wrote in message
>
>
>>He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes"
>
>
> Why am I not surprised.
Maybe because you appear to have pre-judged everything I've posted so
far without bothering to read all of it or ask questions for further
information prior to the end of this current response?

>
>
>>Maybe Dennis is right and I'm overreacting but, then again, maybe he's
>>not. I'll feel better having my son screened and knowing for sure,
>
>
> But you still don't know for sure.
>
Don't yet. May not, even after having him screened. Can't possibly if
it's never checked out.

>
>>it
>>won't hurt him a bit,
>
>
> Yes it will
>
How do you figure? Screening for CAPD isn't a lot different from the
normal, annual hearing screening most kids get, and can be done as part
of the normal screening (for which he'll be due in another month or so).

> It would have made MY life a lot easier to know about it early
>
>>on, that there was a physical cause for my always misunderstanding what
>>people said and/or meant, instead of spending so many years thinking
>>there was just "something wrong with me" in a psychological or emotional
>>sense. It plays hell with a person's self-esteem.
>
>
> So what do you think it may be doing to a nine year old to be hauled in
> front of one so called "expert" after another all of whom, by your own
> admission, have come up with differing diagnosis?
>
I don't recall stating that he'd been "hauled in front of one so called
"expert" after another", nor admitting that they've all come up with
different diagnoses. In fact, as I DO recall stating, the pediatrician
coordinated the ADHD study and diagnosis, using information gleaned from
daily observation over a period of time by people who were in regular
contact with my son - his teachers, family members, friends of the
family, etc. - and from a behavioral evaluation with a child
psychologist (who was presented simply as one of her associates) and a
family counselor, to rule out psychologically based emotional problems,
and from her own observations of him and the results of a pretty
thorough check-up and lab work-up to rule out other potential organic
causes.

> What do YOU yourself think?
> Did you start the whole proceedure off yourself because of his behaviour or
> did the suggestion come from school? Your family doctor? family? friends?
> Go back to the begining formeplease.
>
> Dennis
>

Back to the beginning... "In the beginning, the world was without form
and void..." (sigh) I'm not going into detailed response, here. I
started to, then realized that it really doesn't matter what I say to
you, you've already set your mind on the subject and nothing I say will
change your opinions.

I appreciate the fact that you have an opinion and are willing to state
it, I don't appreciate the manner in which you *have* stated it, as it
has seemed rather personally aggressive rather than directed at what's
been said, and I'm not going to argue with you over it on a newsgroup.
If you want to discuss it further, please read the *whole* post instead
of picking out the bits and pieces that inflame your anger and ignoring
the rest, direct a response at the post instead of the poster, and I'll
be glad to respond further.

~ Dor

[Cele]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:41:07 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>
>"Joelle" > wrote in message
>
>> >You sound like the hypacondriac who wanted his epitaph to be "I told you
>so"
>>
>> Wow. A couple of posts and not only can you diagnose her son better than
>her
>> doctors, you can diagnose her.
>
>I did not diagnose anything.
>I said "You sound like"
>
>Please read more carefully.
>
>Dennis
>
Well, Dennis, at the risk of ****ing you off, you're sounding pretty
snotty and judgemental.

I'm sure you're *not*....you just *sound like* it.

JMO,OC

Cele

[Cele]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:27:38 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>
>"Cele" > wrote in message
>>
>> Why would that warrant an insult?
>
>You call that an insult?
>
>Dennis
>
Was I in some way vague?

Cele

[Cele]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:36:41 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>
>"Istara" > wrote in message
>
>>
>> He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes"
>
>Why am I not surprised.

Holy crap, Dennis. Do you have any clue at all what you're talking
about, or what she's talking about? 'Cause I do, and the tubes are a
medically necessary way to drain the inner ear to reduce the risk of
ongoing infection, potentially damaging both the middle and the inner
ear. Middle ear damage is difficult to repair. Inner ear damage is
permanent. They also reduce the need for antibiotics and therefore
minimise the already high risk of developing antibiotic resistant
strains of infection, which can then spread to other parts of the body
and cause a helluva lot of grief.

You know, I don't often say stuff like this, but when you haven't got
a faint flicker of a clue what you're talking about, that would be the
ideal time to learn something. 'Course, it's usenet, and you can say
and do what you like, but right now, this woman is coming of one whole
helluva lot more rational tha you are.
>>
>> Maybe Dennis is right and I'm overreacting but, then again, maybe he's
>> not. I'll feel better having my son screened and knowing for sure,
>
>But you still don't know for sure.

That's why she's having him tested, Dennis. The whole point of testing
is to get answers to questions.

>> it
>> won't hurt him a bit,
>
>Yes it will

Do you know anything about CAPD testing, then, Dennis? Which test(s)
do you think they'll use? The SCAN? TAPS? What would you consider
hurtful, exactly.

Holy cow.

> It would have made MY life a lot easier to know about it early
>> on, that there was a physical cause for my always misunderstanding what
>> people said and/or meant, instead of spending so many years thinking
>> there was just "something wrong with me" in a psychological or emotional
>> sense. It plays hell with a person's self-esteem.
>
>So what do you think it may be doing to a nine year old to be hauled in
>front of one so called "expert" after another all of whom, by your own
>admission, have come up with differing diagnosis?

Nowhere near as much damage as ignoring his needs would be doing.

>What do YOU yourself think?
>Did you start the whole proceedure off yourself because of his behaviour or
>did the suggestion come from school? Your family doctor? family? friends?
>Go back to the begining for me please.
>
>Dennis

Lordy. If it was me, I wouldn't be very interested in explaining my
thought processes to someone who'd already been in uninformed attack
mode for days.

But hey, she's a pretty patient woman. You might luck out.

Cele

[Cele]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:29:14 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>
>"Cele" > wrote in message
>
>, if he's ever had tubes, CAPD is definitely
>> something to check.
>
>Somethnig makes me think that I know what this response is going to be.
>
>Dennis
>
That's great, Dennis. That'll save you having to log in at all. You
can just read usenet by telepathy.

Cele

[CME]

"Joelle" > wrote in message
...
> >ixed up cayenne water, dipped the end of a couple of cigarettes in
>>it, let them dry, and then slipped them into an open pack in a position
>>where they'd be the most accessible, and left it lying about unguarded.
>
> Okay, maybe I overreacted. I still think it's a little harsh for the dog.
> And
> maybe you shouldn't be advocating pepepr for "behavior modification" on a
> parenting ng, might give people the wrong idea, not just about you, but
> they
> may think, "well she does it so I guess it's okay."
>
> It's not.
>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle

Without her explanation yeah I was sitting here going omg.

Christine

[Istara]

Joelle wrote:

>>ixed up cayenne water, dipped the end of a couple of cigarettes in
>>it, let them dry, and then slipped them into an open pack in a position
>>where they'd be the most accessible, and left it lying about unguarded.
>
>
> Okay, maybe I overreacted. I still think it's a little harsh for the dog. And
> maybe you shouldn't be advocating pepepr for "behavior modification" on a
> parenting ng, might give people the wrong idea, not just about you, but they
> may think, "well she does it so I guess it's okay."
>
> It's not.
>
> Joelle
> The world is a book and those who do not travel read only one page - St
> Augustine
> Joelle

Actually, it was a veterinarian that suggested the method to me, several
years ago, with another dog I had. That one had a habit of snatching
food off the table if you left it unguarded. I checked with our current
vet about it before using it again with the current dog's trash problem,
since it had been so long since I used it, and he confirmed that it
wouldn't do any harm to the dog, as long as it was mixed in a liquid and
spritzed rather than being left as a powder. Inhaling the raw pepper
could damage nasal and/or lung lining tissue. Spritzed on so that it
actually soaks into the top layer of the trash or whatever it's spritzed
on will just make their nose sting when they come in contact with it,
but prevent the pepper itself from being inhaled.

In very small doses - just enough to make the tongue sting - mixed with
water and spritzed on or used to dip something in, it's very effective
for keeping the dog out of the trash or convincing young teenagers that
cigarettes don't taste nearly as good as they think. It stings the nose
or tongue without doing actual physical harm, and is a much more
effective 'reminder' than a spanking or scolding, because it's such an
unusual, unexpected sensation.

Sorry if it came across wrong - it originally came from my
supposed-to-be-humorous response to Cele's response a couple of layers
up the thread. Dennis clipped most of the relevant stuff from it and
left the pepper comment to hang by itself, as an example of where my son
has learned bullying behavior. The original comment was...

>>
>>> I haven't been the best example of organization at home, over the
>>> years, I know, though I'm trying to improve. I grew up in too big a
>>> family (8 kids plus parent/step-parent) living in too small a house
>>> (3 bedrooms), so was used to things always being cluttered up from
>>> too little space. Our house, now, is rarely truly dirty, but it does
>>> get pretty clutter-messy at times. I'm working on it, but still have
>>> a ways to go.
>>
>>
>>
>> I bet you learned a lot about keeping perspective and social dynamics,
>> though. :-)
>
>
> Oh yeah! And non-injurious methods of discouraging younger siblings from
> digging into one's personal belongings. I still keep cayenne pepper in
> the kitchen, and use it as often for behavior modification (most
> recently with the dog) as for cooking! (snicker)

I DID contribute to pepper-dipping cigarettes with one of my older
brothers, as a teenager, to teach my younger step-brother not to steal
them from people, but - in our defense - I have to say that we tried
everything else we could think of to catch and discourage him before we
resorted to the pepper mixture, including an appeal to the parents that
got no results (they lectured him, he ignored it and went right one with
what he was doing). It did him no real harm, other than stinging his
mouth and making him retch, and the one time was all that was needed.

And, although I do keep it in the spice cabinet, I might use about half
a teaspoon of the stuff in a month of cooking.

At any rate... Apologies if the pepper thing alarmed you. It really
wasn't as bad as it probably appeared to be, and is always a last resort
method, when nothing else has worked and it's an intentional behavior
that seems to require a drastic counter.

With the dog, I know it's intentional trash tipping, as she absolutely
will not tip the trash can if there's anyone in the house, and she acts
guilty as soon as someone comes in, even before there's a chance for the
person to discover the tipped trash.

As for the step-brother... He knew what he was doing, and had more than
ample warning that the consequences would be unpleasant if he persisted.
And he chose to ignore all warnings and other methods of discouragement.
My older brother wanted to try a mousetrap and exploding cigarette
loads. I was indeed a bully that night, as I insisted we try a
pepper-water dip first, and got stubborn until I got my way about it.

Anyway... Sorry to have upset you. Hope the explanation clears it up a
little and eases your mind. I'm sorry you had such a rotten experience
with hot sauce - I was a nail-biter and hair-chewer, myself, and well
remember hot sauce on the fingers and vinegar on my hair. YUCK! But it
was never carried to a point of abuse, with me. I can understand how it
could be misused and abused, though, and didn't mean to advocate that it
should be.

Take care...

~ Dor

[Purchgdss]

>He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes" which,
>according to the ENT, are semi-permanent. Went a year between each set,
>hoping he'd outgrown the problem that made them necessary to begin with,
>but each time was just a year of almost constant ear infections and
>fluid build-up problems.

Have you explored the allergen route for the ear issues? As a child (and
inherited by MY child who has benefitted from my pain) I had repeated eardrum
ruptures from fluid build up and infection behind the ear drum. These have
affected my lower range hearing.

After 30 years of being treated for these (BTW, I'm 37) *I* finally realized it
was allergy related. The drainage from my allergies (Mold, dust and ALL
grasses) would irritate and close the tubes at the back of my throat causing
the blockage and instigating the infection.

A regular dosage of antihistamines and cautious attention to my inescapable
allergens have prevented ruptures for the last 10 years.....

Training my son to recognize the "signs" and take the antihistamines only as
needed has kept his ruptures to just 1 in his life (our first learning
experience).

Something to consider......


Just my 2 cents.........
Christine

[Paul Griffiths]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:27:38 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
> wrote:
> >"Cele" > wrote in message
> >>
> >> Why would that warrant an insult?
> >
> >You call that an insult?
> >
> Was I in some way vague?

Had a bad day? ;-)


--
Paul Griffiths

[Paul Griffiths]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:36:41 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
> wrote:
> >"Istara" > wrote in message
> >
> >> He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes"
> >
> >Why am I not surprised.
>
> Holy crap, Dennis. Do you have any clue at all what you're talking
> about, or what she's talking about? 'Cause I do, and the tubes are a
> medically necessary way to drain the inner ear to reduce the risk of
> ongoing infection, potentially damaging both the middle and the inner
> ear. Middle ear damage is difficult to repair. Inner ear damage is
> permanent. They also reduce the need for antibiotics and therefore
> minimise the already high risk of developing antibiotic resistant
> strains of infection, which can then spread to other parts of the body
> and cause a helluva lot of grief.

Over here something that sounds like it might be very similar is called a
grommet. Maybe the different terminology is causing the confusion.

Other than that I'm saying nothing on this one but only 'cos you've said it
already, Cele. :-)


--
Paul Griffiths

[Paul Griffiths]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 19:29:14 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
> wrote:
> >"Cele" > wrote in message
> >
> >, if he's ever had tubes, CAPD is definitely
> >> something to check.
> >
> >Somethnig makes me think that I know what this response is going to be.
> >
> That's great, Dennis. That'll save you having to log in at all. You
> can just read usenet by telepathy.

LOL

I should *really* go to bed now. Please play nicely folks.


--
Paul Griffiths

[Cele]

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 04:24:41 +0100, "Paul Griffiths"
> wrote:

>Over here something that sounds like it might be very similar is called a
>grommet. Maybe the different terminology is causing the confusion.
>
>Other than that I'm saying nothing on this one but only 'cos you've said it
>already, Cele. :-)

Yeah, grommets, that's right. They call 'em that in Australia, too,
but I'd forgotten. Thanks for clarifying.
:-)

Cele

[denanson]

"Istara" wrote in message >
> >
> >> At home, though... You'd never know the same person lived in
> >>my house as worked in my work area. As efficient and organized as I am
> >>at work, I am that much inefficient and disorganized at home,
> >
> >
> > and then
> >
> >
> >>I've finally gotten my son into the habit of putting his schoolbag and
> >>shoes right next to the front door every evening, so it's right there
> >>where it can't be missed in the morning. He gets "reward points" for
> >>doing it without having to be reminded, then can trade points in for
> >>things like renting a video or getting McDonald's for supper,
> >
> >
> > Why should he when, in your own words, you live in a "disorganised" and
> > "inefficient" home environment.
> > Why not lead by example then you can just ask your son to keep his
school
> > bag and shoes in a particular place.
> > Again, who is the bully here?
> >
> > Dennis


> As far as who the bully is, you've been displaying more "bully" behavior
> than I have, on this. Have I done something to you specifically that's
> gotten you so honked off, or are you just having a bad week? I don't
> expect everyone in the world to like me or to be nice to me, but you
> don't appear to have even bothered to read what I've posted completely,
> just picked out the bits that you wanted to see, decided I was a worthy
> target for aggression, and started firing away. What's the deal with that?

Looks like I touched a nerve!
I picked out the bits that I thought you could give a little more
considedation.
You posted the thread in the forst place.
You asked how to deal with your sons (alleged) bullying behaviour.
I made some observations that jumped out at me when I read the thread. Now
you are calling me the bully!
Pot, kettle, black?

Dennis

[denanson]

"Cele" < wrote in message

> "denanson" wrote:
> >
> >"Istara" wrote in message
> >
> >>
> >> He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes"
> >
> >Why am I not surprised.
>
> Holy crap, Dennis. Do you have any clue at all what you're talking
> about, or what she's talking about?

Yes. You have obviously forgotton that Freddie went for an operation to
remove his adenoids and to fit grommits a couple of years ago. Check the
"**** **** ****" thread on the archieve.

> >> Maybe Dennis is right and I'm overreacting but, then again, maybe he's
> >> not. I'll feel better having my son screened and knowing for sure,
> >
> >But you still don't know for sure.
>
> That's why she's having him tested, Dennis. The whole point of testing
> is to get answers to questions.

How many times and by how many people?

> >> it
> >> won't hurt him a bit,
> >
> >Yes it will
>
> Do you know anything about CAPD testing, then, Dennis? Which test(s)
> do you think they'll use? The SCAN? TAPS? What would you consider
> hurtful, exactly.
>
> Holy cow.

You completely missed my point. You were too literal. The "hurt" comes from
the accumulative effect of subjecting this nine yo. to a continious battery
of tests from a continually expanding group of people. So far it is
teachers, parents, social workers, phsycologists, EN&T specialists, GP, plus
god knows how many others.
This child is being hurt.


> >
> >So what do you think it may be doing to a nine year old to be hauled in
> >front of one so called "expert" after another all of whom, by your own
> >admission, have come up with differing diagnosis?
>
> Nowhere near as much damage as ignoring his needs would be doing.

That was not my point.

Dennis

[Cele]

On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:14:29 +0100, "denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie>
wrote:

>
>"Cele" < wrote in message
>
>> "denanson" wrote:
>> >
>> >"Istara" wrote in message
>> >
>> >>
>> >> He's on his third set of tubes - he has what are called "T-tubes"
>> >
>> >Why am I not surprised.
>>
>> Holy crap, Dennis. Do you have any clue at all what you're talking
>> about, or what she's talking about?
>
>Yes. You have obviously forgotton that Freddie went for an operation to
>remove his adenoids and to fit grommits a couple of years ago. Check the
>"**** **** ****" thread on the archieve.

Yep, you're right.

>> >> Maybe Dennis is right and I'm overreacting but, then again, maybe he's
>> >> not. I'll feel better having my son screened and knowing for sure,
>> >
>> >But you still don't know for sure.
>>
>> That's why she's having him tested, Dennis. The whole point of testing
>> is to get answers to questions.
>
>How many times and by how many people?

It didn't sound to me as if she'd had multiple CAPD tests. It sounded
like she hadn't ever had him tested for CAPD, which can be a very
significant condition.

>> >> it
>> >> won't hurt him a bit,
>> >
>> >Yes it will
>>
>> Do you know anything about CAPD testing, then, Dennis? Which test(s)
>> do you think they'll use? The SCAN? TAPS? What would you consider
>> hurtful, exactly.
>>
>> Holy cow.
>
>You completely missed my point. You were too literal. The "hurt" comes from
>the accumulative effect of subjecting this nine yo. to a continious battery
>of tests from a continually expanding group of people. So far it is
>teachers, parents, social workers, phsycologists, EN&T specialists, GP, plus
>god knows how many others.

No, Dennis, I got your point. Teachers test all kids, lots. Parents
don't and I don't see anything suggesting she has. If a kid has ear
issues in this country, and some others, you take him to a GP who then
refers to an ENT. The ENT tests. The GP rarely does. That's normal
procedure. If a kid has behaviour and social/emotional issues, social
workers sometimes are involved but rarely test. Psychologists are
appropriate to help find out what's up. We're talking one medical test
for an organic problem, one psychoeducational professional for an
educational problem, and the standard teaching procedure that is used
when kids seem to need it.

>This child is being hurt.

You don't know that.

So what's the magic number of tests? One? Three? Five? Twelve? If a
kid happens to have multiple issues and maxes out your number early,
does that mean no subsequently developed needs should be met? Suppose
after that he breaks a leg. Better not Xray, 'cause that's too many
tests. OK, so that's extreme. Suppose he gradually develops excessive
thirst and urination and sleeps a lot? Don't test, 'cause he's had too
many tests already, so his diabetes can go untreated.

C'mon, Dennis. What makes you think you know better than this mother
and the professionals involved what her son's needs are?

>> >So what do you think it may be doing to a nine year old to be hauled in
>> >front of one so called "expert" after another all of whom, by your own
>> >admission, have come up with differing diagnosis?
>>
>> Nowhere near as much damage as ignoring his needs would be doing.
>
>That was not my point.

It was mine.

Cele