I want another baby....

[Jill]

soooooooooo bad! I plan to wean Rachel when she is 1 if she hasn't already
weaned herself. I figure by 1 at the latest, she will be on enough solids
and able to have cow's milk. I don't want to wean her when she will have to
have formula, so a year is fine by me. She has never been sick yet, knock on
wood. People tell me that's when she will get her first cold, right after I
wean her. I have heard that from so many people.

I am actually thinking about TTC right away when she is weaned, I will give
it more careful thought at the time- I guess it depends on how she is
wearing me out etc.

I've got it bad though. I know for sure I want 2 more babies and I wouldn't
be at all upset to have 2 more girls, or 1 more girl and a boy. Even 2 more
boys is fine! I will admit to *hoping* that the next one is a girl, and
after that, I will not hope any more for a certain gender. Furthermore,
don't ask me the logic behind this, but I do want to know the sex of the
next one but if I am lucky enough to have one more, on the 3rd one, I will
ask the dr not to tell me. That's a lot of plans, eh?

--
---------
-Jill
Mom to Rachel, May 9, 2004 (A Mother's Day baby!)
See her here: http://tinyurl.com/3nsug

[Circe]

Jill wrote:
> soooooooooo bad! I plan to wean Rachel when she is 1 if she hasn't
> already weaned herself. I figure by 1 at the latest, she will be on
> enough solids and able to have cow's milk. I don't want to wean her
> when she will have to have formula, so a year is fine by me.

FWIW, you don't *have* to wean to conceive or carry a pregnancy to term,
Jill. Or, at least, a lot of women don't. (Some will have total suppression
of ovulation or insufficient hormonal levels to carry a pregnancy while
they're nursing, but most don't have that problem.) I got pregnant with my
second when I was still nursing my first and with my third when I was still
nursing my second. I nursed all the way through the second pregnancy and
tandem nursed for a year after that. I weaned my second when I was pregnant
because she got a sloppy latch that we couldn't get corrected, but I nursed
her until I was about 20 weeks along. No problems. And my third is still
nursing at 2.5yo. I figure he'll nurse another 6 months to a year (I weaned
my oldest when he was 3y2m and I don't think I want to go much beyond that
for a number of reasons).

Just thought you should know because, honestly, I don't think you should be
in a hurry to wean Rachel just so you can have another baby because it
simply may not be necessay. And you may, in fact, find that she resists the
idea pretty strongly when you hit that year mark. What I've typically seen
is that unless the baby/toddler is really ready and willing to wean, the
time around a year old is really the *worst* time to wean because kids go
through weird eating jags, may totally refuse milk (they just may not like
it; none of mine is fond of milk to this day), and may be miserably unhappy
without their comfort nursing in what tends to be a very clingy/needy phase
(that 12-15 month period can be quite a challenge). MOST people I've known
both IRL and on the 'Net who nursed to a year nursed well beyond it--at
least to 15 months if not to 18 or even 2 years and beyond.

And I'll tell you something else--if/when she *does* get ill, you will be so
grateful that you are still breastfeeding. On those grumpy, sick days when
my still-nursing toddlers didn't want to eat or drink anything but
breastmilk, I was *awfully* glad I hadn't weaned them yet!

Just food for thought!
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 5), and the Rising Son (Julian, 7)

This week's suggested Bush/Cheney campaign bumper sticker:
"Four More Wars!"

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

[Sophie]

>That's a lot of plans, eh?
>
> --
> ---------
> -Jill
> Mom to Rachel, May 9, 2004 (A Mother's Day baby!)
> See her here: http://tinyurl.com/3nsug
>
>

LOL! Yes it is :)

[Not My Real Name]

"Jill" > wrote in message
. com...
> soooooooooo bad!

That happens to a lot of moms when their babies are about Rachel's age! If
you still feel that way when she's a year old, then consider going for it.
Just like Barbara said, though, you don't necessarily have to wean in order
to get pregnant. It will depend on how your body reacts to the nursing
hormones -- whether you'll get AF back without weaning, whether you'll find
nursing during pg extremely uncomfortable or not, etc. There are lots of us
here and at mkb who got pg again while nursing multiple times a day. I was
nursing DD about 5 times a day when I got pg again, and she still nurses 1-3
times a day now. It's uncomfortable, but generally tolerable. I probably
could wean her without a whole lot of upset if I wanted to, but I don't have
a reason to, and both she and I would prefer not to wean yet.


--
-Sara:)
Mommy to DD, 2 1/2
And Someone Due 2/05

[Leslie]

>soooooooooo bad! I plan to wean Rachel when she is 1 if she hasn't already
>weaned herself.

Why? Lots of women are able to get pregnant while bf and continue to bf
through pregnancy if it's mutually agreeable. I don't recommend shortchanging
your existing baby for a potential baby. At one, there are many babies who are
not eating many solids at all. Also, it's a particularly clingy and resistant
time for weaning--most early weaners tend to do it before then--those who hold
out till one usually keep nursing for awhile!

I figure by 1 at the latest, she will be on enough solids
>and able to have cow's milk. I don't want to wean her when she will have to
>have formula, so a year is fine by me. She has never been sick yet, knock on
>wood. People tell me that's when she will get her first cold, right after I
>wean her. I have heard that from so many people.

Yes, bf can help keep her healthy for as long as she is nursing, even through
toddlerhood. And it's so useful for comforting and soothing a stressed-out two
year old. Honestly, I'm just too lazy to attempt to parent a toddler without
it!

>
>I am actually thinking about TTC right away when she is weaned, I will give
>it more careful thought at the time- I guess it depends on how she is
>wearing me out etc.

An almost two year gap is pretty manageable and I always think nice for the
kids in terms of being playmates as children and close later on in life.


>
>I've got it bad though. I know for sure I want 2 more babies and I wouldn't
>be at all upset to have 2 more girls, or 1 more girl and a boy.

There were three girls in my family so a family of three girls always sounds
nice to me. :-)

Even 2 more
>boys is fine! I will admit to *hoping* that the next one is a girl,

It would be nice for Rachel to have a sister close in age, but however it turns
out will be great once it happens!

and
>after that, I will not hope any more for a certain gender. Furthermore,
>don't ask me the logic behind this, but I do want to know the sex of the
>next one but if I am lucky enough to have one more, on the 3rd one, I will
>ask the dr not to tell me. That's a lot of plans, eh?

LOL. Actually, that's how we did it. I didn't want to find out about Emily,
but John did, so we did try to but they couldn't tell. Then we found out that
#2 was a boy. When #3 was on the way, we had one of each already so figured it
didn't matter and waited to be surprised. However, these last two, Emily has
wanted a girl SO MUCH that we thought it best to find out ahead of time so as
to get over any disappointment before baby arrived. Theoretically, though, I
don't really approve of finding out and really wish it just wasn't an option.


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[newfy.1]

"Circe" > wrote in message
news:B7Y4d.61321$9Y5.39216@fed1read02...

And you may, in fact, find that she resists the
> idea pretty strongly when you hit that year mark. What I've typically seen
> is that unless the baby/toddler is really ready and willing to wean, the
> time around a year old is really the *worst* time to wean because kids go
> through weird eating jags, may totally refuse milk (they just may not like
> it; none of mine is fond of milk to this day), and may be miserably
unhappy
> without their comfort nursing in what tends to be a very clingy/needy
phase
> (that 12-15 month period can be quite a challenge). MOST people I've known
> both IRL and on the 'Net who nursed to a year nursed well beyond it--at
> least to 15 months if not to 18 or even 2 years and beyond.

I completely agree with Barbara, here. I remember at 12 months thinking that
Matthew was never going to wean at the rate he was going. I had no plans to
wean him, but I just didn't think at that point he ever would. He was *very*
attached to nursing at that point and it really would have been cruel to
make him wean. I waited just a few months and to my surprise he really
started weaning himself. He was totally done and self-weaned by nearly 17
months. I was extremely satisfied with the whole situation.

Anyway, I thought Jill's cycles had started up again early so ovulation
supression wouldn't be an issue as far as conception. Maybe I'm wrong?


JennP.

[Nikki]

Circe wrote:

> Just thought you should know because, honestly, I don't think you
> should be in a hurry to wean Rachel just so you can have another baby
> because it simply may not be necessay. And you may, in fact, find
> that she resists the idea pretty strongly when you hit that year
> mark. What I've typically seen is that unless the baby/toddler is
> really ready and willing to wean, the time around a year old is
> really the *worst* time to wean because kids go through weird eating
> jags, may totally refuse milk (they just may not like it; none of
> mine is fond of milk to this day), and may be miserably unhappy
> without their comfort nursing in what tends to be a very clingy/needy
> phase (that 12-15 month period can be quite a challenge). MOST people
> I've known both IRL and on the 'Net who nursed to a year nursed well
> beyond it--at least to 15 months if not to 18 or even 2 years and
> beyond.

I agree with all that and that has been my experience as well.

I would encourage anyone to give very careful consideration to the subject
before planning to nurse through a pregnancy. It can be very difficult for
some people to cope with that and there is no going back.

I was rather blasé about the whole thing and I shouldn't have been. People
have a tendency to talk about it as if it is wonderful and easy. Well it
isn't easy and while some people find it doable it isn't for everyone. I
put Hunter and myself through a lot of misery when I got pregnant and he was
still enthusiastically nursing. I planned that and it was foolish of me. I
don't mean to imply that it is foolish for everyone because clearly it isn't
;-)

It turns out I wasn't to thrilled with extended nursing the second time
either but toss in a pregnancy and it about put me over the edge. So I
guess my advice to someone deliberating about this....if you feel a little
overwhelmed with nursing at the moment - that is not a good moment to ttc.
Wait until the baby is either weaned or you are at a point where you enjoy
the nursing again to maximize the likelihood that you will be able to
successfully nurse while pg.

--
Nikki

[Jill]

"newfy.1" > wrote
> Anyway, I thought Jill's cycles had started up again early so ovulation
> supression wouldn't be an issue as far as conception. Maybe I'm wrong?
>
>
> JennP.
>

No, I haven't had a period yet. I can't remember when it was but once I
thought it was starting (8 weeks?), I felt kind of crampy but it was very
brief and it turned out not to even ne a period. DOn't know what that was
about, but I still haven't had a period, or anything else like that
either....

[Beach mum]

"Jill" > wrote
> She has never been sick yet, knock on
> wood. People tell me that's when she will get her first cold, right after
> I
> wean her. I have heard that from so many people.

Utter and complete coincidence. E had her first cold long before she was
weaned (at 11.5 months at her choosing) and hasn't had another one since.
She's now 17 months.
--
Melissa (in Los Angeles)
Mum to Elizabeth 4/13/03
and ??? due early 3/05

[Jill]

"Leslie" > wrote Theoretically, though, I
> don't really approve of finding out and really wish it just wasn't an
option.
>

I am probably going to have to disallow my husband from coming on doctor
visits with me if I a-don't want to know or b-am ok with knowing but don't
want anyone else to know the sex ahead of time. If I don't want to know, no
matter what, my husband said he ALWAYS wants to know what to plan for and I
KNOW he will tell his parents and someone will probably slip it out. Plus,
it's a thing I have--I just can't stand the thought of other people, whose
business it is not, knowing what my baby is when I don't even know. If I
don't want to know and mt husband insists on knowing, how would a doctor
handle that?? Would the doctor tell my husband against my wishes? Now I am
really curious- what DO they do if parents are in disagreement and it's the
*father* who wants to know the sex and the mother wants it a total secret? I
mean, it's half his baby.....does he have a right to know the sex if the mom
doesn't want to know, and is right of the mom to be to dictate that her
husband can't know if he wants to?

That's why it seems to me like if I ever really want it to be a secret I am
going to have to go it alone at the ultrasounds and appointments. I don't
know if it is *that* big a deal to me, it sounds selfish to want everything
secret just because *I* want to be surprised, when absolutely everyone else
wants to know. But that's how I feel, if I want it to be a secret, I want it
to be a secret!

I wish at least that my husband and I could know and both agree to keep it a
secret but he would defintely tell his family. See, from here on out I will
not be having a baby shower (I only had one this time), and really, people
are much less likely to pile us up with clothes if they don't know a gender.
We got SO much clothing this time Rachel can't possibly wear it all, even if
changed 2-3 times a day. It just seems simpler to have a secret baby, lol.

[shixa]

On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 20:00:55 GMT, "Jill" > wrote:

>
>Would the doctor tell my husband against my wishes? Now I am
>really curious- what DO they do if parents are in disagreement and it's the
>*father* who wants to know the sex and the mother wants it a total secret? I
>mean, it's half his baby.....does he have a right to know the sex if the mom
>doesn't want to know, and is right of the mom to be to dictate that her
>husband can't know if he wants to?

YOU are the patient so it's up to you...PERIOD.

Carla
Mom to Victor Paul born 5.16.04
www.victorpictures.com <--See him here!

[Dagny]

"Jill" > wrote in message
. com...
> I am actually thinking about TTC right away when she is weaned, I will
give
> it more careful thought at the time- I guess it depends on how she is
> wearing me out etc.

I conceived this baby when Meg was 6 months old, and she is not weaned at
all and I have no plans to wean her. We are doing a couple of bottles a day
of formula in addition to 3 table food meals, but we are still taking about
6-8 or so nursing sessions and I am making milk. But we started the formula
when my milk supply suddenly got frustrating for her because of the
pregnancy. She is fine with the milk supply now.

She's 22 pounds at 11 mos, if this is not making sense as to why she would
eat food, formula AND a lot of breast milk -- she's a tall, robust girl who
needs to eat a lot. Whoever says that their stomachs are the size of their
fists -- hmmm. Hasn't seen my kid put away food I think.

I did night wean also, and the pregnancy contributed to that, needing to not
be woken. I moved into another room, and Meg sleeps with DH.

But we are still a happy nursing pair from 6am to bedtime.

I think babies close together are great for some and not for others. But, I
am not sure that babies 2-3 years apart would be easier than 15 mos like
mine will be. I haven't had to chase after a toddler all this time -- she's
still a crawler, wasn't crawling until 9 mos actually. Makes the pregnancy
easier. She's a very amiable baby, too, so that helps.

-- Dagny
Mom to Meg, 10/03
#2 1/05

[toypup]

"Jill" > wrote in message
. com...
> business it is not, knowing what my baby is when I don't even know. If I
> don't want to know and mt husband insists on knowing, how would a doctor
> handle that?? Would the doctor tell my husband against my wishes? Now I am
> really curious- what DO they do if parents are in disagreement and it's
> the
> *father* who wants to know the sex and the mother wants it a total secret?
> I
> mean, it's half his baby.....does he have a right to know the sex if the
> mom
> doesn't want to know, and is right of the mom to be to dictate that her
> husband can't know if he wants to?

I he goes with you to the u/s, he might figure it out for himself without
anyone saying a word. My DH did.

[Leslie]

Nikki said:

>I would encourage anyone to give very careful consideration to the subject
>before planning to nurse through a pregnancy. It can be very difficult for
>some people to cope with that and there is no going back.

I would agree with this and I would not *intentionally* get pregnant while
nursing a baby who really still *needs* to be nursed. For example, when I got
pregnant with Teddy, Jake was only three months old and nursing him was not
optional! I felt I had to keep it up no matter how it drained me, and his milk
supply was definitely compromised. Then I had to tandem nurse for two years,
never feeling like I could wean Jake without weaning Teddy as well, and since
it didn't seem fair not to give Teddy the full two years everyone else got, I
just kept on, long after I became resentful of the whole thing.

Now with William, obviously he doesn't *need* to nurse although he loves to,
and he can understand if I can't do it because I am sore, or that I need him to
be very gentle, and when the baby comes, that she gets first dibs. And if I
find tandeming wearisome, I can wean him without guilt.


>
>I was rather blasé about the whole thing and I shouldn't have been. People
>have a tendency to talk about it as if it is wonderful and easy. Well it
>isn't easy and while some people find it doable it isn't for everyone.

I didn't find it wonderful OR easy and it's not an experience I would seek out,
like some others here and at mkb seem to! I always thing it's a little funny
when toddlers want to wean during pregnancy and the mothers are sad because
they were looking forward to tandemming.

I
>put Hunter and myself through a lot of misery when I got pregnant and he was
>still enthusiastically nursing. I planned that and it was foolish of me. I
>don't mean to imply that it is foolish for everyone because clearly it isn't
>;-)
>
>It turns out I wasn't to thrilled with extended nursing the second time
>either but toss in a pregnancy and it about put me over the edge. So I
>guess my advice to someone deliberating about this....if you feel a little
>overwhelmed with nursing at the moment - that is not a good moment to ttc.
>Wait until the baby is either weaned or you are at a point where you enjoy
>the nursing again to maximize the likelihood that you will be able to
>successfully nurse while pg.

ITA, for those of you who are better at actually planning pregnancies than I
am. <g>

Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Leslie]

Jill said:

>it sounds selfish to want everything
>secret just because *I* want to be surprised, when absolutely everyone else
>wants to know. But that's how I feel, if I want it to be a secret, I want it
>to be a secret!
>
>I wish at least that my husband and I could know and both agree to keep it a
>secret but he would defintely tell his family.

If he can't agree to keep it to himself, then he can't know. I don't see
what's selfish about that, nor do I understand why a grown man would have so
much trouble keeping it a secret.


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Leslie]

Dagny said:

>we are still taking about
>6-8 or so nursing sessions and I am making milk.

I'm so happy to hear this! I remember how worried you were in the beginning
about dwindling milk supply.

FWIW, William (aged 3.5) is still happily nursing about once a day, sometimes
for a long time, and promises that there is still milk there. In fact,
yesterday I even felt a letdown!




Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Leslie]

Joybelle said:

>Planning is good. I remember planning my six children when I was
>first married. The three girls and three boys all had first and middle
>names. Lol

I had ten names all picked out when I was in high school! I had some idea that
my husband wasn't going to mind not having a say in the names--couldn't have
been more wrong! Still, I was always planning on naming the first boy after my
husband (and we did) and the second one after my father (which we did, although
a different middle name than what I had on my list). But William. Lorelei, and
Emily were not on my list (Emily's middle name, Rose, was though!).

If you have another girl will she have a flower name too?




Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Tori M.]

If my husband wanted the sex to be a secret he would have to not tell it to
me;) Maybe next time we will do a blind pregnancy.. lol no one will even be
allowed to look with an ultrasound wand;) LoL I have had enough
ultrasounds for the entire MKP group I think;)

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier due 10/17/04
"Leslie" > wrote in message
...
> Jill said:
>
> >it sounds selfish to want everything
> >secret just because *I* want to be surprised, when absolutely everyone
else
> >wants to know. But that's how I feel, if I want it to be a secret, I want
it
> >to be a secret!
> >
> >I wish at least that my husband and I could know and both agree to keep
it a
> >secret but he would defintely tell his family.
>
> If he can't agree to keep it to himself, then he can't know. I don't see
> what's selfish about that, nor do I understand why a grown man would have
so
> much trouble keeping it a secret.
>
>
> Leslie
>
> Emily (2/4/91)
> Jake (1/27/94)
> Teddy (2/15/95)
> William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
> and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04
>
> "Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
> ~ William Wordsworth
>

[Joybelle]

"Jill" > wrote in message
. com...
> soooooooooo bad! I plan to wean Rachel when she is 1 if she hasn't already
> weaned herself. I figure by 1 at the latest, she will be on enough solids
> and able to have cow's milk. I don't want to wean her when she will have
to
> have formula, so a year is fine by me. She has never been sick yet, knock
on
> wood. People tell me that's when she will get her first cold, right after
I
> wean her. I have heard that from so many people.
>
> I am actually thinking about TTC right away when she is weaned, I will
give
> it more careful thought at the time- I guess it depends on how she is
> wearing me out etc.

I weaned my first to TTC, and I really wish I hadn't. :( It was very
difficult. With my second I conceived and kept on nursing. I did
eventually end up weaning her before baby was born, but I think it was
easier than the first time around. Now I'm bfing my baby, who is 18 months,
and I have no plans to stop yet. If I AM pg right now, I don't know if I'll
tandem or not, but I might be willing to.

> I've got it bad though. I know for sure I want 2 more babies and I
wouldn't
> be at all upset to have 2 more girls, or 1 more girl and a boy. Even 2
more
> boys is fine! I will admit to *hoping* that the next one is a girl, and
> after that, I will not hope any more for a certain gender. Furthermore,
> don't ask me the logic behind this, but I do want to know the sex of the
> next one but if I am lucky enough to have one more, on the 3rd one, I will
> ask the dr not to tell me. That's a lot of plans, eh?

I know how that is wanting to have a baby sooooooooo bad! I remember it
getting so bad when the babies were around 6 months, and I was just crazy
wanting another one. Then they got mobile. LOL... It actually hasn't
stopped me, but it does give one pause. :) I've always been happy to get
what I get. i would have loved four girls, I would have loved four boys. :)
I think, though, if I am pg I would love to have another boy. It would
balance things out quite nicely. I'd be thrilled to have a girl, also,
though. Planning is good. I remember planning my six children when I was
first married. The three girls and three boys all had first and middle
names. Lol

I've always planned on not knowing gender, and I haven't with any of them.
Just like not knowing for some reason. It seems to drive everybody nuts,
funny enough! I don't know why they care so much, but they seem to.
--
Joy

Rose 1-30-99
Iris 2-28-01
Spencer 3-12-03

[Unadulterated Me]

Jill wrote:

> I am actually thinking about TTC right away when she is weaned,

You probably won't need to wean in order to get pregnant, most people's
fertility returns once solids start, babies sleep longer, and breastfeed
become more spaced out.

> That's a lot of plans, eh?
>

lol only slightly

Andrea

[Unadulterated Me]

shixa wrote:

>
> YOU are the patient so it's up to you...PERIOD.
>

Client, she's not ill ;-)

Andrea

[Cathy]

Jill wrote:
> soooooooooo bad! I plan to wean Rachel when she is 1 if she hasn't
> already weaned herself. I figure by 1 at the latest, she will be on
> enough solids and able to have cow's milk. I don't want to wean her
> when she will have to have formula, so a year is fine by me. She has
> never been sick yet, knock on wood. People tell me that's when she
> will get her first cold, right after I wean her. I have heard that
> from so many people.

I thought I'd wean by about a year, and then that mark came along, people
started telling me I should wean, and so I refused!! However, I conceived
when DD was 14 months, and she weaned herself instantly, which was a shock.
And DD had several colds in her first year, and hasn't been any sicker since
weaning than she was before. She is now nearing 21 months, has had one
chest infection, has had a really mild dose of hand, foot and mouth disease,
and has had plenty of colds, all pretty mild.

Cathy
DD 8 Jan 03
EDD 8 Dec 04

[shixa]

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:17:06 +1200, Unadulterated Me
> wrote:

>shixa wrote:
>
>>
>> YOU are the patient so it's up to you...PERIOD.
>>
>
>Client, she's not ill ;-)
>
Huh? I never thought she was ill, I just always thought that whenever
you go see a doctor that you were a patient. Even on well visits or
check-ups.

Carla
Mom to Victor Paul born 5.16.04
www.victorpictures.com <--See him here!

[Nancy P.]

"Jill" > wrote in message
. com...
> soooooooooo bad!

I'm wondering if this is something hormonal? My DD is 2 or 3 weeks older
than Rachel and I'm having those thoughts. Its seeing little teeny tiny
babies and my baby is big (and exciting and does stuff, very cool) and I
think how nice it is to have those little tiny ones. Plus while I still
remember the hard pregnancy and birth, in 5 months its somehow dulled to
something in the distant past.

> I am actually thinking about TTC right away when she is weaned, I will
> give
> it more careful thought at the time- I guess it depends on how she is
> wearing me out etc.
>

Even if you're not nursing, if you're young enough, I would think long and
hard about how you would react to being sick throughout a whole pregnancy
(like you seemed to be when you were pregnant with Rachel) while looking
after a toddler. And think about who you might have to rely on to help you
if its too much or if you wind up having medical issues. I know a lot of
people breeze through their pregnancies with minimal discomfort, but I can
truly say that for me, having a complicated pregnancy with a toddler was
very, very trying. Both when I was nursing and when I was not nursing. I'm
not saying not to space closely, its a wonderful thing, but if you need help
and the only person available to you during the day is your mother, is that
ok with you?

Nancy

[Elle]

(Leslie) wrote in message >...
> Theoretically, though, I
> don't really approve of finding out and really wish it just wasn't an option.

That is interesting. How come you don't approve of finding out?

Elle

[Karen]

"newfy.1" > wrote in message >...
> "Circe" > wrote in message
> news:B7Y4d.61321$9Y5.39216@fed1read02...
>
> And you may, in fact, find that she resists the
> > idea pretty strongly when you hit that year mark. What I've typically seen
> > is that unless the baby/toddler is really ready and willing to wean, the
> > time around a year old is really the *worst* time to wean because kids go
> > through weird eating jags, may totally refuse milk (they just may not like
> > it; none of mine is fond of milk to this day), and may be miserably
> unhappy
> > without their comfort nursing in what tends to be a very clingy/needy
> phase
> > (that 12-15 month period can be quite a challenge). MOST people I've known
> > both IRL and on the 'Net who nursed to a year nursed well beyond it--at
> > least to 15 months if not to 18 or even 2 years and beyond.
>
> I completely agree with Barbara, here. I remember at 12 months thinking that
> Matthew was never going to wean at the rate he was going. I had no plans to
> wean him, but I just didn't think at that point he ever would. He was *very*
> attached to nursing at that point and it really would have be'

Ben turned 1 last week and he would be miserable if I tried to wean
him now. At this point he is pulling my shirt up every time I sit down
it seems like and nursing at least twice a night. I'm dealing with it
only because I know it will probably ease up in a couple months. My
first 4 weaned between 8-10 months right along the oft occuring
nursing strike. My now three year old was weaned at 15 months. I was
ready to be done nursing and she went along with it without much fuss.
My goal is to get Ben through the winter still nursing and then we'll
just take it from there.

Karen

[Leslie]

Elle asked:

>That is interesting. How come you don't approve of finding out?

There are lots of reasons. One of them is that I think we spend a lifetime
placing expectations upon our children. When you can't picture a boy or a
girl, you can't place specific expectations on that person, and I think that's
good because it will start soon enough anyway, kwim?

Also, I think knowing in advance has increased the whole preference for one or
the other. I remember when I was a child if you asked someone if they wanted a
boy or a girl they would always say, "I don't care as long as it's healthy."
I'm sure we all think that at bottom, but I never hear anybody say that
anymore--I'm not sure why, but I think there is a link.

Then of course there are the possible misuses of this knowlege, like aborting a
baby of the "wrong" sex . . .

And I am old-fashioned, and I just have a gut reaction that we are supposed to
be surprised. :-)

Anyway, there are *some* reasons!




Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Jill]

"Leslie" > wrote
> If he can't agree to keep it to himself, then he can't know. I don't see
> what's selfish about that, nor do I understand why a grown man would have
so
> much trouble keeping it a secret.
>

Because he gets really excited about babies. I can't blame him.....for all
my talk I'd probably end up spilling the beans if I knew too. Lol!

[Jill]

"shixa" > wrote
> Huh? I never thought she was ill, I just always thought that whenever
> you go see a doctor that you were a patient. Even on well visits or
> check-ups.
>

Lol. And anyway, I do think of it as half his business. It's not really that
big of a deal but I was curious what a doctor would do in that situation.

I think to be fair, if I truly didnt want my husband to tell, I'd have it a
secret from both of us. I think a surprise would be fun. He's more practical
and doesn't want surprises....I can understand that.

[Jenrose]

"Jill" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Leslie" > wrote Theoretically, though, I
>> don't really approve of finding out and really wish it just wasn't an
> option.
>>
>
> I am probably going to have to disallow my husband from coming on doctor
> visits with me if I a-don't want to know or b-am ok with knowing but don't
> want anyone else to know the sex ahead of time. If I don't want to know,
> no
> matter what, my husband said he ALWAYS wants to know what to plan for and
> I
> KNOW he will tell his parents and someone will probably slip it out. Plus,
> it's a thing I have--I just can't stand the thought of other people, whose
> business it is not, knowing what my baby is when I don't even know. If I
> don't want to know and mt husband insists on knowing, how would a doctor
> handle that?? Would the doctor tell my husband against my wishes? Now I am
> really curious- what DO they do if parents are in disagreement and it's
> the
> *father* who wants to know the sex and the mother wants it a total secret?
> I
> mean, it's half his baby.....does he have a right to know the sex if the
> mom
> doesn't want to know, and is right of the mom to be to dictate that her
> husband can't know if he wants to?


There is another option... skip the ultrasound.

Jenrose

[Jenrose]

"Beach mum" > wrote in message
news:zY_4d.390$Wu1.277@trnddc02...
> "Jill" > wrote
>> She has never been sick yet, knock on
>> wood. People tell me that's when she will get her first cold, right after
>> I
>> wean her. I have heard that from so many people.
>
> Utter and complete coincidence. E had her first cold long before she was
> weaned (at 11.5 months at her choosing) and hasn't had another one since.
> She's now 17 months.
> --

If you're lucky... but when moms in our playgroup started weaning, most of
them found that their "never been sick" kids suddenly started getting colds.

Jenrose

[Ericka Kammerer]

shixa wrote:

> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:17:06 +1200, Unadulterated Me
> > wrote:

>>Client, she's not ill ;-)
>>
>
> Huh? I never thought she was ill, I just always thought that whenever
> you go see a doctor that you were a patient. Even on well visits or
> check-ups.

Many people feel that the use of the term "patient"
connotes a very powerless relationship and perpetuates
the medicalization of birth/pregnancy.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[ModernMiko]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> shixa wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:17:06 +1200, Unadulterated Me
> > > wrote:
>
> >>Client, she's not ill ;-)
> >>
> >
> > Huh? I never thought she was ill, I just always thought that whenever
> > you go see a doctor that you were a patient. Even on well visits or
> > check-ups.
>
> Many people feel that the use of the term "patient"
> connotes a very powerless relationship and perpetuates
> the medicalization of birth/pregnancy.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka

I'm sorry to be so blunt but what a crock. You're only powerless if you
allow it to be that way. I think patient is an entirely appropriate term and
only says that I am seeing a medical professional as compared to someone
else like a contractor for the house....

--
JennL
DS 06/26/98
1 tiny angel 11/03
EDD December 4 2004

aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net
--
Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys
with Swords

[Ericka Kammerer]

ModernMiko wrote:

> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> ...

>>Many people feel that the use of the term "patient"
>>connotes a very powerless relationship and perpetuates
>>the medicalization of birth/pregnancy.
>
> I'm sorry to be so blunt but what a crock. You're only powerless if you
> allow it to be that way. I think patient is an entirely appropriate term and
> only says that I am seeing a medical professional as compared to someone
> else like a contractor for the house....

And that may be accurate for you. However,
the depth and breadth of research showing that language
*does* make a difference to many is darned near unassailable.
Lakoff's _Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things: What Categories
Reveal about the Mind_ is a great starting place, as is
looking up the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[ModernMiko]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> ModernMiko wrote:
>
> > "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >>Many people feel that the use of the term "patient"
> >>connotes a very powerless relationship and perpetuates
> >>the medicalization of birth/pregnancy.
> >
> > I'm sorry to be so blunt but what a crock. You're only powerless if you
> > allow it to be that way. I think patient is an entirely appropriate term
and
> > only says that I am seeing a medical professional as compared to someone
> > else like a contractor for the house....
>
> And that may be accurate for you. However,
> the depth and breadth of research showing that language
> *does* make a difference to many is darned near unassailable.
> Lakoff's _Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things: What Categories
> Reveal about the Mind_ is a great starting place, as is
> looking up the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka

I suppose and I respect your opinion as I only have my experience and those
of my friends to go by but that seems very weak-minded to me. I don't think
I know anyone who would think they are powerless in a patient/doctor
relationship vs a client/doctor relationship. From what I have seen in real
life and on here, if a woman is going to feel powerless and pressured into
something, patient vs. client isn't going to make a big difference....

--
JennL
DS 06/26/98
1 tiny angel 11/03
EDD December 4 2004

aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net
--
Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys
with Swords

[Ericka Kammerer]

ModernMiko wrote:


> I suppose and I respect your opinion as I only have my experience and those
> of my friends to go by but that seems very weak-minded to me. I don't think
> I know anyone who would think they are powerless in a patient/doctor
> relationship vs a client/doctor relationship. From what I have seen in real
> life and on here, if a woman is going to feel powerless and pressured into
> something, patient vs. client isn't going to make a big difference....

I think it helps to look at it in the whole
*cycle* of things. Experience shapes language, which
shapes experience. It's not an accident that doctors'
clients are called "patients." It works the other
way 'round as well--changing the language can be a
beginning point for changing the experience. Even
many doctors' organizations recognize the impact
of the client/patient terminology.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Carol Ann]

: soooooooooo bad!

ME, TOO!!!!! I posted a similar thought. From the wonderful responses, I
gathered that it wasn't unusual to feel this way. When we look at how
quickly our daughters are growing and see how much fun we are having, it is
natural to want another.

I don't know what will happen with me. My fear of having an unhealthy child
is overpowering my desire to have another child.

If I do get pregnant, I would NOT have another amnio (I think) because it
drove me nuts. I will also skip the TriScreen (if I can). But then
again......I'm not sure what I would do. ARGH!! I can't let this fear
stop me.....

:I plan to wean Rachel when she is 1 if she hasn't already
: weaned herself. I figure by 1 at the latest, she will be on enough solids
: and able to have cow's milk. I don't want to wean her when she will have
to
: have formula, so a year is fine by me. She has never been sick yet, knock
on
: wood. People tell me that's when she will get her first cold, right after
I
: wean her. I have heard that from so many people.

I don't know how I am going to handle the weaning. My first priority TODAY
is Morgan. Having another child is secondary.

: I am actually thinking about TTC right away when she is weaned, I will
give
: it more careful thought at the time- I guess it depends on how she is
: wearing me out etc.

Then, again....you may "accidentally" get pregnant. No birthcontrol + sex =
possible pregnancy! Perhaps that is the best way.......???

: I've got it bad though. I know for sure I want 2 more babies and I
wouldn't
: be at all upset to have 2 more girls, or 1 more girl and a boy. Even 2
more
: boys is fine! I will admit to *hoping* that the next one is a girl, and
: after that, I will not hope any more for a certain gender. Furthermore,
: don't ask me the logic behind this, but I do want to know the sex of the
: next one but if I am lucky enough to have one more, on the 3rd one, I will
: ask the dr not to tell me. That's a lot of plans, eh?

I understand. Didn't you know Rachel was a girl? I'm sure when you get to
#3 you will decide that you NEED to know the sex so you can plan around the
other two children. LOL!

God-Willing, Jill, we will both be here in 3 - 4 years discussing how
wonderfully our children are doing (whether it's 2, 3 or even 4 of them).

~Carol Ann

[emilymr]

I haven't read the book Ericka's talking about, but it's true that the
language we use to describe things influences how we think about things
(and vice versa). There are tons of examples of this in racialized
language ("oriental", the 'n' word, etc.) -- and people make a very
concerted effort to change the language they use in order to try and
re-configure power relations and move away from very damaging
interpersonal and community dynamics.

This doesn't mean that everyone who calls an Asian American an "oriental"
is racist, or that if someone calls you an oriental then you're being
oppressed and have no power (in fact, my 92-year-old Japanese grandmother
calls herself an oriental -- she wasn't really a part of the 60s
revolution! haha). BUT, I think it's pretty clear the symbolism of
rejecting the term "oriental" and replacing it with "Asian American" *has*
been instrumental in changing the place of AAs in US society.

So it definitely makes sense to me that calling pregnant women "clients"
instead of "patients" could, over time, make a difference in how both the
women and the doctors view their traditional relationship. Everything
being for the convenience of the doctors (birthing laying down,
unnecessary episiotomies/inductions/sections, etc.), and pregnancy and
birth being medicalized and pathologized, all are implied in the term
"patient". "Client" implies that the woman is in control, that she can
make informed and intelligent decisions, and that she can "fire" her
doctor if he/she isn't an appropriate fit (like some people here have
done). This is symbolic, of course; you can fire your doctor even if you
call yourself a patient, and you can be browbeaten into inducing even if
you call yourself a client. But even still, I don't think we should
underestimate the power of language to effect change!

Hmm, I just delivered a lecture... sorry about that!! But it feels good
to think about something besides what to cook for dinner for DH. ;) I
need to get back to teaching!! haha

Em
baby boy, due Nov. 18

[Unadulterated Me]

ModernMiko wrote:

> I'm sorry to be so blunt but what a crock. You're only powerless if you
> allow it to be that way. I think patient is an entirely appropriate term and
> only says that I am seeing a medical professional as compared to someone
> else like a contractor for the house....
>

That's not true, if someone believes themselves to be a patient their
mind can and often does take the passive role of patient, you become the
poor sick peep who needs someone to care for them.
Being a client or a consumer has connotations of power, equality and
choice in the relationship. You'r2 engaging someone for a service, not
at the mercy of someone for their treatment. Language and imagery is
powerful.
Also being the patient buys into the medical model, that birth is a
medical event and needs medical treatment, that pregnancy and birth are
ailments that needs to be remedied. Granted pregnancy and birth can turn
medical and then you do become the patient, but for a good 80% of women
pregnancy and birth is a state of wellness and although they may benefit
from clinical screening they does not need a medical approach.

Andrea

[toypup]

"emilymr" <emily@xxxxxx> wrote in message
lkaboutparenting.com...
> This doesn't mean that everyone who calls an Asian American an "oriental"
> is racist, or that if someone calls you an oriental then you're being
> oppressed and have no power (in fact, my 92-year-old Japanese grandmother
> calls herself an oriental -- she wasn't really a part of the 60s
> revolution! haha). BUT, I think it's pretty clear the symbolism of
> rejecting the term "oriental" and replacing it with "Asian American" *has*
> been instrumental in changing the place of AAs in US society.

Okay, can you please tell me why "oriental" is derogatory? I'm not at all
offended by it and neither are my friends. We just know it's not used
anymore and not considered PC, but why? I've never figured it out.

[ModernMiko]

"Unadulterated Me" > wrote in message
...
> ModernMiko wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry to be so blunt but what a crock. You're only powerless if you
> > allow it to be that way. I think patient is an entirely appropriate term
and
> > only says that I am seeing a medical professional as compared to someone
> > else like a contractor for the house....
> >
>
> That's not true, if someone believes themselves to be a patient their
> mind can and often does take the passive role of patient, you become the
> poor sick peep who needs someone to care for them.
> Being a client or a consumer has connotations of power, equality and
> choice in the relationship. You'r2 engaging someone for a service, not
> at the mercy of someone for their treatment. Language and imagery is
> powerful.
> Also being the patient buys into the medical model, that birth is a
> medical event and needs medical treatment, that pregnancy and birth are
> ailments that needs to be remedied. Granted pregnancy and birth can turn
> medical and then you do become the patient, but for a good 80% of women
> pregnancy and birth is a state of wellness and although they may benefit
> from clinical screening they does not need a medical approach.
>
> Andrea

I'm sorry. I just don't buy into it. Again I respect your opinion but I
think it's laying blame on language and not on the person to stand up for
her or himself.

--
JennL
DS 06/26/98
1 tiny angel 11/03
EDD December 4 2004

aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net
--
Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys
with Swords

[Unadulterated Me]

ModernMiko wrote:


>
> I'm sorry. I just don't buy into it. Again I respect your opinion but I
> think it's laying blame on language and not on the person to stand up for
> her or himself.
>

Well it's not so much a standing up for yourself thing, you can be an
empowered patient too. It's the relabeling of a relationship, re
addressing the balance in a relationship. Redefining how a society as a
whole, not just an individual person, sees the balance or power within a
relationship. In New Zealand pregnant women are almost universally
referred to as consumers, the only time you'll hear one being called a
patient is perhaps by an ob who has a pregnant women in hospital under
their care who actually is ill.
Using stronger more assertive language when defining relationships in
birth, redefines the values of that relationship. Entering a
relationship as a client or a consumer of services immediately puts you
on a footing of equality within that relationship, the exchanges of
communication and information will take on different values, and the
responsibility level takes on a different value. To be a patient puts
responsibility for your care in the hands of a doctor, being a client
gives you back that responsibility.

Andrea

[Carol Ann]

> This doesn't mean that everyone who calls an Asian American an "oriental"
: > is racist, or that if someone calls you an oriental then you're being
: > oppressed and have no power (in fact, my 92-year-old Japanese
grandmother
: > calls herself an oriental -- she wasn't really a part of the 60s
: > revolution! haha). BUT, I think it's pretty clear the symbolism of
: > rejecting the term "oriental" and replacing it with "Asian American"
*has*
: > been instrumental in changing the place of AAs in US society.
:
: Okay, can you please tell me why "oriental" is derogatory? I'm not at all
: offended by it and neither are my friends. We just know it's not used
: anymore and not considered PC, but why? I've never figured it out.

I'm 1/2 Korean and it doesn't bother me. Of course, I've been called many
things in my time and they don't usually bother me.

Okay, ONE thing does...being called FAT. I really hate being called FAT.

Come to think of it, one girl called me an Oriental Bimbo once (to my
boyfriend , her exboyfriend, at the time). I replied, "You can call me
slut, you can call me whore, you can call me a bitch but don't ever, and I
mean DON'T ever bring my race into it again you white piece of sh*t."

Now, that is harsh isn't it? I have no idea where that came from, but the
response I got was shocking....She just kept apologizing over and over and
over. I was really shocked. So, I let it go. She said noone had ever
called her a "race" name before and it made her stop and realize what she
said.

Wow, now THAT was too much information......

~Carol Ann

[emilymr]

Exactly -- you said it much better (and much more concisely!!) than I did.

:)

Em
baby boy, due Nov. 18

[ModernMiko]

"Unadulterated Me" > wrote in message
...
> ModernMiko wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I'm sorry. I just don't buy into it. Again I respect your opinion but I
> > think it's laying blame on language and not on the person to stand up
for
> > her or himself.
> >
>
> Well it's not so much a standing up for yourself thing, you can be an
> empowered patient too. It's the relabeling of a relationship, re
> addressing the balance in a relationship. Redefining how a society as a
> whole, not just an individual person, sees the balance or power within a
> relationship. In New Zealand pregnant women are almost universally
> referred to as consumers, the only time you'll hear one being called a
> patient is perhaps by an ob who has a pregnant women in hospital under
> their care who actually is ill.
> Using stronger more assertive language when defining relationships in
> birth, redefines the values of that relationship. Entering a
> relationship as a client or a consumer of services immediately puts you
> on a footing of equality within that relationship, the exchanges of
> communication and information will take on different values, and the
> responsibility level takes on a different value. To be a patient puts
> responsibility for your care in the hands of a doctor, being a client
> gives you back that responsibility.
>
> Andrea

I think I'll have to just agree to disagree with you. I think it's just a
word and putting too much into it is a crutch and avoiding the real issue...

--
JennL
DS 06/26/98
1 tiny angel 11/03
EDD December 4 2004

aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net
--
Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys
with Swords

[Leslie]

>
>Okay, can you please tell me why "oriental" is derogatory? I'm not at all
>offended by it and neither are my friends. We just know it's not used
>anymore and not considered PC, but why? I've never figured it out.

I'm not the OP, but I think there are several reasons:

1) It lumps all people together, whether they are Chinese, Japanese, Korean,
etc. (although of course so does Asian-American, so maybe that's not it!).

2) It refers to Asians from a Western point of view, i.e. we are here, they are
from the mysterious orient . . .

3) It conjures up such stereotypes as the "inscrutable oriental."

4) It's just one of those old-fashioned terms that used to be used in a
derogatory way by some, so we've adopted a new p.c. term. For example,
"colored" was once a perfectly polite way to refer to black people, used by
themselves. Now it's considered prejudiced. I think Negro was the next polite
term, and no one says that anymore. Now the p.c. thing is African-American,
although the black people I know use black and AA interchangeably.

All that said, I'm "European-American" and I say Oriental most of the time,
although if I were talking to an Asian person, I probably would not say that
because I would be afraid they would find it offensive even though I certainly
don't mean it that way at all. And I say black, because my black friends say
black.

It would be interesting to take a poll--what do the Asian-Americans here
prefer? Do you find Oriental offensive?


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Ericka Kammerer]

toypup wrote:

> Okay, can you please tell me why "oriental" is derogatory? I'm not at all
> offended by it and neither are my friends. We just know it's not used
> anymore and not considered PC, but why? I've never figured it out.

My understanding is that it is considered less
appropriate because the term derived from British colonialism
and therefore is hung with a lot of that baggage. Also,
it is a term often used to "exotify" things. "Asian" is
more neutral in that it is just a geographic reference
with less historical/cultural baggage attached. There
certainly are Asians or Asian Americans who don't particularly
give a rip about it for various reasons. In some ways,
an appropriate parallel would be calling whites Occidentals.
Similarly, there's been a lot of talk lately
about Native American vs. Indian given the opening of
the Museum of the American Indian on the Mall. Apparently,
the name was chosen years ago and it would literally
take an act of Congress to change it ;-) Most I've
heard from don't seem to care, saying that as far as
they're concerned, *both* "Native American" and
"Indian" are Western constructs. *They* think of
themselves as Cherokee or Sioux or whatever (or the
equivalents in the appropriate language). Nevertheless,
it's pretty inescapable that all these terms have some
sort of history attached to them.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Ericka Kammerer]

Joybelle wrote:

> "Leslie" > wrote in message

>>Emily were not on my list (Emily's middle name, Rose, was though!).
>
> Isn't it funny how those husbands have an opinion??? :) I love Emily Rose.

I have an Emily Rose for a niece. Poor tyke had
a rough start, diagnosed with an aggressive cancer at
only 6 months, but she pulled through and is a happy
and healthy almost 9 year old now. (Hmm...better get
thinking about that birthday gift...)

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Carol Ann]

> It would be interesting to take a poll--what do the Asian-Americans here
> prefer? Do you find Oriental offensive?


I don't find Oriental offensive. Asian just sounds better. In my case it's
obvious that I am also American.

Does Asian American only refer to full blooded Asians born in America? If
so, what WOULD I be called?

1/2 Korean, 1/2 American

~Carol Ann

[Leslie]

Carol Ann said:

>I don't find Oriental offensive. Asian just sounds better. In my case it's
>obvious that I am also American.
>
>Does Asian American only refer to full blooded Asians born in America? If
>so, what WOULD I be called?
>
>1/2 Korean, 1/2 American

It gets complicated, doesn't it?

Obviously, a whole lot of "African-Americans" are part Caucasian. There used
to be laws on the books saying if you had 1/64th "black blood" that meant you
were black.

I think these distinctions are more difficult when your ancestry is made
obvious by your appearance, kwim? If someone looks at me, they aren't going to
think "Irish-Scotch-American."

So to answer your question, I think you are called whatever you want to be
called. Let us know. :-)


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Phoebe & Allyson]

Leslie wrote:
> It would be interesting to take a poll--what do the Asian-Americans
> here prefer? Do you find Oriental offensive?

Allyson (born in Taiwan) normally says Oriental, and doesn't find it
offensive. I usually use a specific country, if I know it, or say Asian. I
don't say Asian-American, any more than I'd say European-American.
Caterpillar (half-Chinese) we normally refer to as Onoko or mixed.

Phoebe :)
--
yahoo address is unread; substitute mailbolt

[emilymr]

Something's going wonky with my settings; I can't find the original post

(this one:
> It would be interesting to take a poll--what do the Asian-Americans
here
> prefer? Do you find Oriental offensive?)

but in response -- as a half-Japanese/half-Swedish/all-American ;) I find
the term "oriental" offensive (even though my grandma uses it); I call
myself an Asian-American. The reason I find "oriental" offensive is
because it was used as a derogatory term for a very long time. That
doesn't mean that I think that anyone who uses the term necessarily mean
to be rude or derogatory or anti-Asian, but I *do* think that if you do
any research into it and learn about the roots of the word and the history
accompanying it, then you'd not use it anymore.


OT again -- I also can't find Mary S.'s original post announcing her baby,
and suddenly all the posts are coming out separately instead of under
"topics" (does this make sense??) even when I click view-topic. Anyone
know how to fix this??

And OT once again -- for anyone who views MKP on Safari, did you notice
that the ads on this thread include things like "Meet Hot Asian Singles"??
:P I know they target the ads to the thread, but that one cracked me
up...

Em
baby boy, due Nov. 18

[emilymr]

And one more PS -- ultimately, I agree with Leslie: you're called whatever
you want!! :) Identity politics can be tricky... but if people are
respectful, then that's the most important thing.

Em
baby boy, due Nov. 18

[Joybelle]

"Leslie" > wrote in message
...
> Joybelle said:
>
> >Planning is good. I remember planning my six children when I was
> >first married. The three girls and three boys all had first and middle
> >names. Lol
>
> I had ten names all picked out when I was in high school! I had some idea
that
> my husband wasn't going to mind not having a say in the names--couldn't
have
> been more wrong! Still, I was always planning on naming the first boy
after my
> husband (and we did) and the second one after my father (which we did,
although
> a different middle name than what I had on my list). But William.
Lorelei, and
> Emily were not on my list (Emily's middle name, Rose, was though!).

Isn't it funny how those husbands have an opinion??? :) I love Emily Rose.
What will Lorelei's middle name be? Your boys all have such traditional,
masculine names, and I LOVE that. Spencer was the name of a very spiritual
man I knew growing up. I remember loving his name, Spencer Tracey's name,
and just hearing the name. LOL... I tried, I really did, to go with
something different, but I am so glad we went with it.

My sister and I loved to sit around and come up with names. I still have a
notebook that has some of the names we considered.


> If you have another girl will she have a flower name too?

Definitely! Last time I went through a real searching process to figure out
the flower name that was different, but I think I'm stuck on Lily or Violet.
I need twins so I can use them both. :) When I was pg with my first hubby
and I jokingly made a list of three flower names we were going to name our
girls. Rose Deborah (after my mom), Lily Robyn (after his mom), and Daisy
Joy. So far, it is Rose Helena (after his great-grandmother) and Iris
Christina (after my grandmother and me). It is funny how things change. :)
--
Joy

Rose 1-30-99
Iris 2-28-01
Spencer 3-12-03

[toypup]

"emilymr" <emily@xxxxxx> wrote in message
lkaboutparenting.com...
> myself an Asian-American. The reason I find "oriental" offensive is
> because it was used as a derogatory term for a very long time. That
> doesn't mean that I think that anyone who uses the term necessarily mean
> to be rude or derogatory or anti-Asian, but I *do* think that if you do
> any research into it and learn about the roots of the word and the history
> accompanying it, then you'd not use it anymore.

I've just never heard it used in a derogatory fashion. I don't know the
roots of it, though. I doubt many people do, at least nobody I know does.
I don't like to refer to myself as Asian-American. I'm American. (Okay,
maybe that's not PC for this ng, but no one says USAian here.)

[Sophie]

"toypup" > wrote in message
news:3jm5d.261229$Fg5.170977@attbi_s53...
>
> "emilymr" <emily@xxxxxx> wrote in message
> lkaboutparenting.com...
> > This doesn't mean that everyone who calls an Asian American an
"oriental"
> > is racist, or that if someone calls you an oriental then you're being
> > oppressed and have no power (in fact, my 92-year-old Japanese
grandmother
> > calls herself an oriental -- she wasn't really a part of the 60s
> > revolution! haha). BUT, I think it's pretty clear the symbolism of
> > rejecting the term "oriental" and replacing it with "Asian American"
*has*
> > been instrumental in changing the place of AAs in US society.
>
> Okay, can you please tell me why "oriental" is derogatory? I'm not at all
> offended by it and neither are my friends. We just know it's not used
> anymore and not considered PC, but why? I've never figured it out.


I'm with you. I always thought you used Asian for certain things (people)
and Oriental for some (rugs, things).

[Sophie]

> Obviously, a whole lot of "African-Americans" are part Caucasian. There
used
> to be laws on the books saying if you had 1/64th "black blood" that meant
you
> were black.

I can't stand the term African-American. A lot of black Americans are not
of African descent so it's just plain inaccurate.

> I think these distinctions are more difficult when your ancestry is made
> obvious by your appearance, kwim? If someone looks at me, they aren't
going to
> think "Irish-Scotch-American."
>
> So to answer your question, I think you are called whatever you want to be
> called. Let us know. :-)
>
>
> Leslie
>
> Emily (2/4/91)
> Jake (1/27/94)
> Teddy (2/15/95)
> William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
> and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04
>
> "Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
> ~ William Wordsworth
>

[Ericka Kammerer]

toypup wrote:


> I've just never heard it used in a derogatory fashion.

I certainly have. I haven't perceived it as
*vicious*, necessarily, but the connotation has often
been "less than."

> I don't know the
> roots of it, though. I doubt many people do, at least nobody I know does.
> I don't like to refer to myself as Asian-American. I'm American. (Okay,
> maybe that's not PC for this ng, but no one says USAian here.)

I've never liked the hyphenated terms either. It seems
to me that "American" as typically used is a geo-political
term (as opposed to a strictly geographical term, since that
would obviously include much more territory). The "African-"
or "Asian-" or whatever part is a racial or cultural term.
I'm not really sure why one would combine them that way, as
they don't seem to go together particularly well. I would
say that I'm an American (in the geo-political sense) of
German/Norwegian/etc. descent. I suppose that's a rather
cumbersome phrasing, but it makes more sense to me. Thus,
Carol Ann by my way of thinking would be an American of
Korean (and whatever else) descent/heritage/whatever.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[toypup]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> they don't seem to go together particularly well. I would
> say that I'm an American (in the geo-political sense) of
> German/Norwegian/etc. descent. I suppose that's a rather
> cumbersome phrasing, but it makes more sense to me. Thus,
> Carol Ann by my way of thinking would be an American of
> Korean (and whatever else) descent/heritage/whatever.

I like that phrasing best.

[Carol Ann]

>The reason I find "oriental" offensive is
> because it was used as a derogatory term for a very long time.


It's funny. I've rarely heard it used offensively.

I have, however, heard, jap, gook, flatface, slant eye, slope head. I've
even been told to go back to my own country (I kid you not) in 1997!!! I
was shocked. I've been told twice to do that.

I don't look that Asian to me, but people will see what they are exposed to.
Many people don't even notice my Asianess. Others? That's all they see. I
still get people asking if I can speak English. How odd!!!

Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html

In any case, I hear allot of, "YOU people think you can come to this country
and take over". Very strange, indeed....

When I lived in Japan and Korea, many people made fun of my Causasianess.
Then, I came to America and suddenly I'm being ridiculed for being Asian.
It was very difficult for me.

It's not so much that way anymore. Times have changed dramatically. I do
live in the south where I believe it took a while longer for the realization
that we were here to stay.

Oooh, now I've categorized myself as a people. ARGH! I better go
now.......

:)

~Carol Ann

[Sophie]

> I don't look that Asian to me, but people will see what they are exposed
to.
> Many people don't even notice my Asianess. Others? That's all they see.
I
> still get people asking if I can speak English. How odd!!!
>
> Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html

You look Asian to me. Since so many guys get stationed in Japan and marry
women there we get a fantastic mix in the children. Some are simply
stunning.

> When I lived in Japan and Korea, many people made fun of my Causasianess.
> Then, I came to America and suddenly I'm being ridiculed for being Asian.
> It was very difficult for me.

My husband is from Michigan. When he's here in NC, people make fun of his
MI accent. When he's in MI, people make fun of his Southern accent. Go
figure. People are stupid.

> ~Carol Ann

[Carol Ann]

> > they don't seem to go together particularly well. I would
> > say that I'm an American (in the geo-political sense) of
> > German/Norwegian/etc. descent. I suppose that's a rather
> > cumbersome phrasing, but it makes more sense to me. Thus,
> > Carol Ann by my way of thinking would be an American of
> > Korean (and whatever else) descent/heritage/whatever.
>
> I like that phrasing best.


I say I'm 1/2 Korean 1/2 American. I don't usually HAVE to say Asian
American. Oh heck, I'm so confused.

I used to say that I was a Jewrean (1/2 Korean, 1/2 Jewish).

~Carol Ann

[Tori M.]

> Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html
You are just so darned pretty it is hard to think anything negative;) It is
easy to tell you are not norweigan but you dont firmly look like you
"belong" to any one race either..

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier due 10/17/04

[toypup]

"Carol Ann" > wrote in message
news:nlC5d.115424$MQ5.55753@attbi_s52...
> I have, however, heard, jap, gook, flatface, slant eye, slope head. I've
> even been told to go back to my own country (I kid you not) in 1997!!! I
> was shocked. I've been told twice to do that.

I've been told that.
>
> I don't look that Asian to me, but people will see what they are exposed
> to.
> Many people don't even notice my Asianess. Others? That's all they see.
> I
> still get people asking if I can speak English. How odd!!!
>
> Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html

You look Asian to me.
>
> In any case, I hear allot of, "YOU people think you can come to this
> country
> and take over". Very strange, indeed....

I've had that, too, when I was in preschool/kindergarten. The kids were
telling me what their parents had told them.

[Tori M.]

"shixa" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:17:06 +1200, Unadulterated Me
> > wrote:
>
> >shixa wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> YOU are the patient so it's up to you...PERIOD.
> >>
> >
> >Client, she's not ill ;-)
> >
> Huh? I never thought she was ill, I just always thought that whenever
> you go see a doctor that you were a patient. Even on well visits or
> check-ups.

I supose it is something along the lines of my midwife vs my ob mentality..
While I am seeing both fairly regularly I call my midwife Kelly but my OB
Dr. Beyer. When I think of Kelly it is a friendlier feeling then Dr.
Beyer.. not that I respect either one less, in fact I am comfortable with
either one delivering the baby. I just know that the more dry type
intervention type junk comes from the OB and since I am considered high risk
this pregnancy I am fairly lucky to be able to see the midwife. I guess I
respect my care providers enough that I usualy dont question them if I feel
they are recomending things based on real concern and not covering their
bottoms...

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier due 10/17/04

[Tori M.]

> Also, I think knowing in advance has increased the whole preference for
one or
> the other. I remember when I was a child if you asked someone if they
wanted a
> boy or a girl they would always say, "I don't care as long as it's
healthy."
> I'm sure we all think that at bottom, but I never hear anybody say that
> anymore--I'm not sure why, but I think there is a link.

Both times I have been pregnant (hehe) I have really wanted the gender I
ended up being pregnant with.. Well we all know this baby could change his
mind and come out an Anna instead of a Xavier but before the ultrasound I
REALLY wanted a boy.. I would have been thrilled with a girl actualy since
people have started the "oh a boy and a girl that is a perfect family" junk
line They seem suprised that we want 2 more.. Even a lady that has had 7
kids thought I was nuts for wanting more.. lol Anyway When I got pregnant
with Bonnie we both REALLY wanted a Girl.. For a few weeks we actualy
thought Bonnie was a boy but her 2nd ultrasound the tech said it was a girl
and she never swapped back.. lol That was a little hard because I had been
SO sure that she was a girl to hear that she was a boy was a shock..

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier due 10/17/04

[Carol Ann]

> > Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html
> You are just so darned pretty it is hard to think anything negative;) It
is
> easy to tell you are not norweigan but you dont firmly look like you
> "belong" to any one race either..
>
> Tori
>
> --
> Bonnie 3/20/02
> Xavier due 10/17/04

Thanks, Tori! I'm wayyyyyyyyyyy big now. I don't look that good. :(

It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. I keep telling myself....it's okay......

~Carol Ann

[Tori M.]

"Carol Ann" > wrote in message
news:NIE5d.265836$Fg5.90335@attbi_s53...
> > > Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html
> > You are just so darned pretty it is hard to think anything negative;)
It
> is
> > easy to tell you are not norweigan but you dont firmly look like you
> > "belong" to any one race either..
> >
> > Tori
> >
> > --
> > Bonnie 3/20/02
> > Xavier due 10/17/04
>
> Thanks, Tori! I'm wayyyyyyyyyyy big now. I don't look that good. :(
>
> It's okay. It's okay. It's okay. I keep telling myself....it's okay......
>
> ~Carol Ann
Awww hugs Carol Ann I am sure you are beautiful. Being heavy does not=
ugly.. Some of the prettiest people I know in life are 50+ lbs overweight..
I happen to know that I am verry pretty some days.. hehe.. and trust me my
self worth scale is not always on the right end of ok;) I have just learned
to pick out the features that I love about me and focas on them.. makes it
easier to ignore the big butt (dh actualy likes that part) when you have
cute nose freckles.. (even if I am the only one that can see them;) I
actualy like my shoulder freckles as well but my arms are so big and I hate
to shave the pits that I rarely show um off..;)

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier due 10/17/04

[Anne Rogers]

Hi Jill,

I guess I felt similar to you, I planned to wean Nathanael when he was 1,
so I didn't have to bother with formula, but I didn't really want to be
feeding him for too long!

As it turned out I was feeding him 4-5 times per day at age 1 as he needed
that much milk, a pint a day apparently. I couldn't go from that to
nothing, it wouldn't have been good for either of us and by that stage I
didn't want to stop anyway. I did introduce cows milk and distract him for
his afternoon feed as I was planning to go back to work full time. I think
we have a nice happy situation now, he regularly feeds once a day and has
more if he needs it. Plus I don't think it will cause a problem
conceiving, I may not be preg this month, but I'm fairly sure I ovulated.

Anne
mummy to Nathanael 28th May 2003
TTC #2

[Iuil]

"Carol Ann" wrote
>
> I say I'm 1/2 Korean 1/2 American. I don't usually HAVE to say Asian
> American. Oh heck, I'm so confused.
>
> I used to say that I was a Jewrean (1/2 Korean, 1/2 Jewish).
>

Reminds me of Tiger Woods who once described himself as "CauBlaSian". IIRC,
he's 1/2 Korean, 1/4 Caucasian and 1/4 Black (using his words again) -
though the media kept referring to him as simply African-American.

Jean
--
#1 - June '02
#2 - May '05

[Tori M.]

"Iuil" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Carol Ann" wrote
> >
> > I say I'm 1/2 Korean 1/2 American. I don't usually HAVE to say Asian
> > American. Oh heck, I'm so confused.
> >
> > I used to say that I was a Jewrean (1/2 Korean, 1/2 Jewish).
> >
>
> Reminds me of Tiger Woods who once described himself as "CauBlaSian".
IIRC,
> he's 1/2 Korean, 1/4 Caucasian and 1/4 Black (using his words again) -
> though the media kept referring to him as simply African-American.
>
I know this is off topic but isnt Tiger Woods Perty.. lol I sometimes wish i
could stand watching golf so I could oogle at him but I think DH would get
suspicious;)

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Xavier due 10/17/04

[Vicky Bilaniuk]

toypup wrote:

> "emilymr" <emily@xxxxxx> wrote in message
> lkaboutparenting.com...
>
>>myself an Asian-American. The reason I find "oriental" offensive is
>>because it was used as a derogatory term for a very long time. That
>>doesn't mean that I think that anyone who uses the term necessarily mean
>>to be rude or derogatory or anti-Asian, but I *do* think that if you do
>>any research into it and learn about the roots of the word and the history
>>accompanying it, then you'd not use it anymore.
>
>
> I've just never heard it used in a derogatory fashion. I don't know the

Me neither.

[Vicky Bilaniuk]

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

> toypup wrote:
>
>> Okay, can you please tell me why "oriental" is derogatory? I'm not at
>> all offended by it and neither are my friends. We just know it's not
>> used anymore and not considered PC, but why? I've never figured it out.
>
>
> My understanding is that it is considered less
> appropriate because the term derived from British colonialism
> and therefore is hung with a lot of that baggage. Also,
> it is a term often used to "exotify" things. "Asian" is
> more neutral in that it is just a geographic reference
> with less historical/cultural baggage attached. There

I know a lot of people who hate the term "Asian" because it gets used to
refer mainly to the eastern countries.

[Elle]

(Leslie) wrote in message >...
> Elle asked:
>
> >That is interesting. How come you don't approve of finding out?
>
> There are lots of reasons. One of them is that I think we spend a lifetime
> placing expectations upon our children. When you can't picture a boy or a
> girl, you can't place specific expectations on that person, and I think that's
> good because it will start soon enough anyway, kwim?
>
> Also, I think knowing in advance has increased the whole preference for one or
> the other. I remember when I was a child if you asked someone if they wanted a
> boy or a girl they would always say, "I don't care as long as it's healthy."
> I'm sure we all think that at bottom, but I never hear anybody say that
> anymore--I'm not sure why, but I think there is a link.
>
> Then of course there are the possible misuses of this knowlege, like aborting a
> baby of the "wrong" sex . . .
>
> And I am old-fashioned, and I just have a gut reaction that we are supposed to
> be surprised. :-)
>
> Anyway, there are *some* reasons!

Thanks Leslies :)

[Vicky Bilaniuk]

Carol Ann wrote:

>>The reason I find "oriental" offensive is
>>because it was used as a derogatory term for a very long time.
>
>
>
> It's funny. I've rarely heard it used offensively.
>
> I have, however, heard, jap, gook, flatface, slant eye, slope head. I've
> even been told to go back to my own country (I kid you not) in 1997!!! I
> was shocked. I've been told twice to do that.

Whenever I hear people say crap like that, I always think that the other
person should say the same thing right back! More often than not, it
would be fitting.

[Iuil]

"Vicky Bilaniuk" wrote
>
> I know a lot of people who hate the term "Asian" because it gets used to
> refer mainly to the eastern countries.

I think it's quite funny how in the USA "Asian" = Japanese/Korean/Chinese
etc. In Europe, Asian = Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi.

Then again, I think people should just mind their own business where anyone
else comes from.

Jean
--
#1 - June '02
#2 - May '05

[toypup]

"Vicky Bilaniuk" > wrote in message
.. .
> Whenever I hear people say crap like that, I always think that the other
> person should say the same thing right back! More often than not, it
> would be fitting.

Those people are usually so ignorant that it's not worth the trouble.

I did once consulted a guy in a professional setting who had a swastika
tattooed on his forehead. He was actually the nicest guy ever in that
setting. I wanted to ask him about his tattoo, but I never did. I still
wonder. He was so nice, didn't seem racist at all.

[Sophie]

> I know this is off topic but isnt Tiger Woods Perty.. lol I sometimes wish
i
> could stand watching golf so I could oogle at him but I think DH would get
> suspicious;)
>
> Tori
>
> --
> Bonnie 3/20/02
> Xavier due 10/17/04


Ohh eeww, Woods couldn't be less sexy if he tried. He's like a little boy.

[Nancy P.]

"Iuil" > wrote in message
...
>
..
>
> Jean
> --
> #1 - June '02
> #2 - May '05
>

Hey, have I missed some sort of announcement?
Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Nancy

[Ericka Kammerer]

Iuil wrote:

> "Vicky Bilaniuk" wrote
>
>>I know a lot of people who hate the term "Asian" because it gets used to
>>refer mainly to the eastern countries.
>
>
> I think it's quite funny how in the USA "Asian" = Japanese/Korean/Chinese
> etc. In Europe, Asian = Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi.

True--it's the British colonial thing that contributed
to that. The "far east" was the Orient and the "near east"
was India/Pakistan/Turkey/etc. The "far" and "near" labels
were in reference to British colonial possessions. I think
in the US, "Asian" came about referring more to the continent
(but I'm less sure on that front).

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Iuil]

"Nancy P." wrote
>
> "Iuil" wrote
> >
> > Jean
> > --
> > #1 - June '02
> > #2 - May '05
> >
>
> Hey, have I missed some sort of announcement?
> Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
>
> Nancy

Nope, no announcement unless you count this post. You win the mkp prize for
observence - only took three posts too ;-).

Mkb were quicker - I had two responses within 30 minutes the first time I
included the sig.

Jean
--
#1 - June '02
#2 - May '05

[Sophie]

"Iuil" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Nancy P." wrote
> >
> > "Iuil" wrote
> > >
> > > Jean
> > > --
> > > #1 - June '02
> > > #2 - May '05
> > >
> >
> > Hey, have I missed some sort of announcement?
> > Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
> >
> > Nancy
>
> Nope, no announcement unless you count this post. You win the mkp prize
for
> observence - only took three posts too ;-).
>
> Mkb were quicker - I had two responses within 30 minutes the first time I
> included the sig.
>
> Jean
> --
> #1 - June '02
> #2 - May '05


AHHH congrats!!!

[Buzzy Bee]

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:03:11 +0100, "Iuil" > wrote:

>
>
>"Vicky Bilaniuk" wrote
>>
>> I know a lot of people who hate the term "Asian" because it gets used to
>> refer mainly to the eastern countries.
>
>I think it's quite funny how in the USA "Asian" = Japanese/Korean/Chinese
>etc. In Europe, Asian = Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi.

In NZ, however, Asian has the same meaning as in the USA, the UK
meaning having no equivalent (aside from usually the inaccurate
"Indian").

Which suggests that the Empire has bugger all to do with the origins
of the term.

Megan
--
Seoras David Montgomery, 7th May 2003, 17 hours. http://seoras.farr-montgomery.com
EDD 11th March 2005

[Ericka Kammerer]

Buzzy Bee wrote:

> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:03:11 +0100, "Iuil" > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>"Vicky Bilaniuk" wrote
>>
>>>I know a lot of people who hate the term "Asian" because it gets used to
>>>refer mainly to the eastern countries.
>>
>>I think it's quite funny how in the USA "Asian" = Japanese/Korean/Chinese
>>etc. In Europe, Asian = Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi.
>
>
> In NZ, however, Asian has the same meaning as in the USA, the UK
> meaning having no equivalent (aside from usually the inaccurate
> "Indian").
>
> Which suggests that the Empire has bugger all to do with the origins
> of the term.

Not necessarily. I'm sure there are loads of
other linguistic differences between NZ and England.
Language can sometimes be very regionalized, and it
wouldn't be all that surprising that there might be
differences between language in colonies and language
at "home." After all, the relative geography is *very*
different.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Leslie]

Ericka said:

> I would
>say that I'm an American (in the geo-political sense) of
>German/Norwegian/etc. descent.

That's the way I would put it myself . . . I'm an American of Scotch and Irish
descent. If someone asked. Of course, on St. Patrick's Day I am just plain
Irish. :-)




Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Leslie]

Joybelle said:

> I love Emily Rose.

Thanks. :-)

>What will Lorelei's middle name be?

Elizabeth . . . which is my sister's, my mother's, and my grandmother's name!

Your boys all have such traditional,
>masculine names, and I LOVE that.

Thanks! We think it's pretty funny that all three of their first names are
names of kings of England. (And it Lorelei had been a boy, she was to be
James, so there's another!)

Spencer was the name of a very spiritual
>man I knew growing up. I remember loving his name, Spencer Tracey's name,
>and just hearing the name. LOL... I tried, I really did, to go with
>something different, but I am so glad we went with it.

My Teddy's best friend from school is Spencer. I do think it's a nice
name--cute for a little boy but manly as well.

>
>My sister and I loved to sit around and come up with names. I still have a
>notebook that has some of the names we considered.

My 13 year old does this. She practically has the baby name book memorized,
seriously! She can tell you the meaning of tons of names.

>
>
>> If you have another girl will she have a flower name too?
>
>Definitely! Last time I went through a real searching process to figure out
>the flower name that was different, but I think I'm stuck on Lily or Violet.
>I need twins so I can use them both. :)

Oh, definitely! I think they are both pretty . . . Violet would be more
unusual, and I love violets! When they would pop up in our front yard, I would
refuse to mow until they were gone. :-)

When I was pg with my first hubby
>and I jokingly made a list of three flower names we were going to name our
>girls. Rose Deborah (after my mom), Lily Robyn (after his mom), and Daisy
>Joy. So far, it is Rose Helena (after his great-grandmother) and Iris
>Christina (after my grandmother and me). It is funny how things change. :)

Beautiful names!


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Leslie]

Ericka said:

>I have an Emily Rose for a niece. Poor tyke had
>a rough start, diagnosed with an aggressive cancer at
>only 6 months, but she pulled through and is a happy
>and healthy almost 9 year old now. (Hmm...better get
>thinking about that birthday gift...)

Oh, wow. I bet all her birthdays are especially happy!

There is actually another Emily Rose in my daughter's class--it seems to be a
pretty popular combination, for some reason.




Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Phoebe & Allyson]

Iuil wrote:
> IIRC, he's 1/2 Korean, 1/4 Caucasian and 1/4 Black

I think it's Thai, not Korean, and that there's some Native American in
there, too.

*google* looks like the concensus is "Tiger is one-eighth Native American,
one-eighth African-American, one-quarter white, one-quarter Chinese,
one-quarter Thai."

Phoebe :)
--
yahoo address is unread; substitute mailbolt

[Phoebe & Allyson]

Carol Ann wrote:
> I don't look that Asian to me, but people will see what they are
> exposed to. Many people don't even notice my Asianess. Others?
> That's all they see.

Some people think Caterpillar looks so Chinese that they assume she's
adopted. Other people just think she's "exotic" looking.

> Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html

I'd seen your picture (from your ebay site) before this discussion, and I
thought that you looked Asian, but not enough that I'd assume you were,
IYKWIM.

Phoebe :)
--
yahoo address is unread; substitute mailbolt

[Maggie]

Phoebe & Allyson spake thusly
>Iuil wrote:
>> IIRC, he's 1/2 Korean, 1/4 Caucasian and 1/4 Black
>
>I think it's Thai, not Korean, and that there's some Native American in
>there, too.
>
>*google* looks like the concensus is "Tiger is one-eighth Native American,
>one-eighth African-American, one-quarter white, one-quarter Chinese,
>one-quarter Thai."
>

I always think of him as American. And a golfer.
--
Maggie, (Irish/English/Scottish/French/Maori) New Zealander

[Buzzy Bee]

On 27 Sep 2004 01:37:45 GMT, (Leslie) wrote:

>Ericka said:
>
>> I would
>>say that I'm an American (in the geo-political sense) of
>>German/Norwegian/etc. descent.
>
>That's the way I would put it myself . . . I'm an American of Scotch and Irish
>descent. If someone asked. Of course, on St. Patrick's Day I am just plain
>Irish. :-)

The funny thing is, I identify myself as Scottish. I have one
non-Scottish great grandparent (she was French). One of my parents, 3
of my grandparents, 6 of my great grandparents and 14 of my great
great grandparents and 30 of my great great great grandparents were
born in Scotland. I am more Scottish than, for example, DH (who has a
number of Irish born great great grandparents, albeit from Ulster).
*I* think this all gives me a better claim to be Scottish than
anything other category.

However no one will accept I am Scottish because I don't have the
accent and I was born in New Zealand. On ethnic origins forms I am
always "corrected" to "White Other" (from "White British") because
"you don't sound British". I do point out that had I been born in
India, they would not be classifying me as Indian. Nevermind that its
an indication of ethnic origin not nationality (though I am, in fact,
British anyway) or place of birth!

Megan
--
Seoras David Montgomery, 7th May 2003, 17 hours. http://seoras.farr-montgomery.com
EDD 11th March 2005

[Elle]

"Iuil" > wrote in message >...
> "Nancy P." wrote
> >
> > "Iuil" wrote
> > >
> > > Jean
> > > --
> > > #1 - June '02
> > > #2 - May '05
> > >
> >
> > Hey, have I missed some sort of announcement?
> > Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
> >
> > Nancy
>
> Nope, no announcement unless you count this post. You win the mkp prize for
> observence - only took three posts too ;-).
>
> Mkb were quicker - I had two responses within 30 minutes the first time I
> included the sig.
>
> Jean

Congrats. What happy news!

Elle

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Sophie > wrote:

*> Obviously, a whole lot of "African-Americans" are part Caucasian. There
*used
*> to be laws on the books saying if you had 1/64th "black blood" that meant
*you
*> were black.
*
*I can't stand the term African-American. A lot of black Americans are not
*of African descent so it's just plain inaccurate.

Not to mention what happens to the white people who come here from Africa.
My friend Hilton, a South African ex-pat studying at a local college here
in Philadelphia, got in some kind of trouble with his school's
administration for checking off "African" on a cultural background survey
they handed out!!! I mean, WTF? He was FROM AFRICA....

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

[Hillary Israeli]

In <DoE5d.122081$D%.83988@attbi_s51>,
toypup > wrote:

*
*"Carol Ann" > wrote in message
*news:nlC5d.115424$MQ5.55753@attbi_s52...
*> I have, however, heard, jap, gook, flatface, slant eye, slope head. I've
*> even been told to go back to my own country (I kid you not) in 1997!!! I
*> was shocked. I've been told twice to do that.
*
*I've been told that.

I'VE been told that, and I'm an average American looking white person!!!
In all seriousness, some lunatic lady in Berkeley CA asked me if I was
Irish and I said no, I'm american. She asked where my grandparents were
from and I said they were Jews from Boston MA and Germany, respectively --
and she told me to get my ass "back" to Israel (where I had at the time
visited once for two weeks, but hardly had residency status...)

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

[emilymr]

Hey, I heard about that!! Or maybe it was another similar story -- a white
guy from South Africa got a fellowship to law school for
African-Americans, and then it was revoked... It seemed that
"African-American" was code for "black".

Em
baby boy, due Nov. 18

[Ericka Kammerer]

Leslie wrote:

> Ericka said:
>
>>I have an Emily Rose for a niece. Poor tyke had
>>a rough start, diagnosed with an aggressive cancer at
>>only 6 months, but she pulled through and is a happy
>>and healthy almost 9 year old now. (Hmm...better get
>>thinking about that birthday gift...)
>
> Oh, wow. I bet all her birthdays are especially happy!

Oddly, it's as if no one even remembers anymore,
for the most part. It was such a traumatic time (not only
did she have a life-threatening illness, but she was
diagnosed in a short lull between health insurance
coverage and the marriage was strained and so on) that
it's almost as if it happened to some other child
and some other family Once Upon a Time. We do remember
at odd moments, and probably especially on her birthday,
but it's odd how one feels so distant from something that
seemed so overwhelming and pervasive when it happened.

> There is actually another Emily Rose in my daughter's class--it seems to be a
> pretty popular combination, for some reason.

Well, it's hard to find two names that go together
better than Emily Rose! Talk about something that flows
easily off the tongue... ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

[emilymr]

In the US, "Asian-American" was a term coined in the 60s by student
radicals in CA, who were protesting the colonialism/exotification implied
in the term "Oriental". Today in the US (in academia, anyway), it's used
to include east, southeast and south Asians. It's also a pretty vague
term, and has some specific political connotations (solidarity, common
history of oppression and "differential inclusion" in US society). This
can be problematic for people -- particularly because not all Asian
Americans have the *same* history, political leanings, experiences, etc.
Depending on the context, I'd call myself an American (if I were in
another country), an Asian American or a Japanese American (if I were
teaching AA history), or a hapa -- Hawaiian for "half", meaning half Asian
and half Caucasian. I think hapa is my favorite. :)

Em
baby boy, due Nov. 18

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>Not to mention what happens to the white people who come here from Africa.
>My friend Hilton, a South African ex-pat studying at a local college here
>in Philadelphia, got in some kind of trouble with his school's
>administration for checking off "African" on a cultural background survey
>they handed out!!! I mean, WTF? He was FROM AFRICA....

Didn't Teresa Heinz Kerry once get in trouble for referring to herself as
African-American, having grown up in Mozambique? (English isn't her first
language, but still, I think she ought to have known better!)

--Helen

[toypup]

"H Schinske" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>
>>Not to mention what happens to the white people who come here from Africa.
>>My friend Hilton, a South African ex-pat studying at a local college here
>>in Philadelphia, got in some kind of trouble with his school's
>>administration for checking off "African" on a cultural background survey
>>they handed out!!! I mean, WTF? He was FROM AFRICA....
>
> Didn't Teresa Heinz Kerry once get in trouble for referring to herself as
> African-American, having grown up in Mozambique? (English isn't her first
> language, but still, I think she ought to have known better!)

Well, if she's from Africa and is now American, that ought to make her
African-American.

[toypup]

"emilymr" <emily@xxxxxx> wrote in message
lkaboutparenting.com...
> Hey, I heard about that!! Or maybe it was another similar story -- a
> white
> guy from South Africa got a fellowship to law school for
> African-Americans, and then it was revoked... It seemed that
> "African-American" was code for "black".

LOL.

[Ericka Kammerer]

emilymr wrote:

> In the US, "Asian-American" was a term coined in the 60s by student
> radicals in CA, who were protesting the colonialism/exotification implied
> in the term "Oriental". Today in the US (in academia, anyway), it's used
> to include east, southeast and south Asians. It's also a pretty vague
> term, and has some specific political connotations (solidarity, common
> history of oppression and "differential inclusion" in US society). This
> can be problematic for people -- particularly because not all Asian
> Americans have the *same* history, political leanings, experiences, etc.
> Depending on the context, I'd call myself an American (if I were in
> another country), an Asian American or a Japanese American (if I were
> teaching AA history), or a hapa -- Hawaiian for "half", meaning half Asian
> and half Caucasian. I think hapa is my favorite. :)

In my experience talking to people, the "native"
term (i.e., how the people in question refer to themselves
in their own language, if applicable) is usually the
preferred term ;-) Most often, the whole fuss is about
which terms imposed by outsiders are most appropriate,
which seems a bit ludicrous on the face of it.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Carol Ann]

> Not to mention what happens to the white people who come here from Africa.
> My friend Hilton, a South African ex-pat studying at a local college here
> in Philadelphia, got in some kind of trouble with his school's
> administration for checking off "African" on a cultural background survey
> they handed out!!! I mean, WTF? He was FROM AFRICA....

My South African girlfriend just says she is South African. Obviously being
tall, blond, blue eyed and beautiful, it is easy to see that she may also be
of Dutch decent (which she is).

~Carol Ann

[Carol Ann]

> Reminds me of Tiger Woods who once described himself as "CauBlaSian".
IIRC,
> he's 1/2 Korean, 1/4 Caucasian and 1/4 Black (using his words again) -
> though the media kept referring to him as simply African-American.


No way!! He doesn't look Korean. No way. I'd say Phillipino........I'll
have to look it up.

No way.....just can't be Korean....

~Carol Ann

[Carol Ann]

> Reminds me of Tiger Woods who once described himself as "CauBlaSian".
IIRC,
> he's 1/2 Korean, 1/4 Caucasian and 1/4 Black (using his words again) -
> though the media kept referring to him as simply African-American.

Tiger Woods On Race

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

MEDIA STATEMENT:

The purpose of this statement is to explain my heritage for the benefit of
members of the media who may be seeing me play for the first time. It is the
final and only comment I will make regarding the issue.

My parents have taught me to always be proud of my ethnic background. Please
rest assured that is, and always will be, the case - past, present, and
future.

The media has portrayed me as African-America; sometimes, Asian. In fact, I
am both.

Yes, I am the product of two great cultures, one African-American and the
other Asian.

On my father's side, I am African-American. On my mother's side, I am Thai.
Truthfully, I feel very fortunate, and EQUALLY PROUD, to be both
African-American and Asian!

The critical and fundamental point is that ethnic background and/or
composition should NOT make a difference. It does NOT make a difference to
me. The bottom line is that I am an American...and proud of it!

That is who I am and what I am. Now, with your cooperation, I hope I can
just be a golfer and a human being.

Signed,

TIGER WOODS

[Unadulterated Me]

Carol Ann wrote:

> On my father's side, I am African-American. On my mother's side, I am Thai.

See I wouldn't really think of Thailand as Asian, it would be more
Indonesian/Malaysian I catagorise it with Bali, East Timor, Jakarta, and
those places in my mind. And I know it's right by Vietnam which I do
consider Asian...funny isn't it. It's probably because we have such a
large Asian population and people are sub categorised a fair bit more
just Asian. Although the Asian invasion is the most overused racial
catch phrase of our nation at the moment.

Andrea

[Unadulterated Me]

Buzzy Bee wrote:

> On ethnic origins forms I am
> always "corrected" to "White Other" (from "White British") because
> "you don't sound British".

Forms here have the option New Zealand European (as opposed to other)
and then if you tick that you get to tick the sub category of European
you want to claim, they only have the main ones for NZ immigrants, so I
always tick our kids as NZ European with Dutch (Father) and English
(Mother) heritage. Interestingly though you can't be New Zealand Asian,
you're either Asian or a Kiwi.
All though you can pick as many categories as you feel you need, so you
can tick New Zealander and Asian, but it's not the same sort of
inclusion as New Zealand European is it.

Andrea

[Leslie]

Ericka said:

>Well, it's hard to find two names that go together
>better than Emily Rose! Talk about something that flows
>easily off the tongue... ;-)

I guess that is true. :-) I know it is hard to find a three syllable name that
flows well with our last name . . . the emphasis has to be the way it is in
Emily and Lorelei or it sounds wrong to me, and most three syllable names have
the emphasis elsewhere.

> We do remember
>at odd moments, and probably especially on her birthday,
>but it's odd how one feels so distant from something that
>seemed so overwhelming and pervasive when it happened.

Memory is a funny thing, isn't it? And it is probably a good thing that such
painful memories fade over time.



Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>Well, if she's from Africa and is now American, that ought to make her
>African-American.

I didn't say it was *logical*. I said she ought to have known better ;-)

--Helen

[Plissken]

"Iuil" > wrote in message
...
>

> Nope, no announcement unless you count this post. You win the mkp prize
for
> observence - only took three posts too ;-).
>
> Mkb were quicker - I had two responses within 30 minutes the first time I
> included the sig.
>
> Jean
> --
> #1 - June '02
> #2 - May '05
>

Yippee!!! Congrats Jean!

Nadene

[Irene]

"Carol Ann" > wrote in message news:<XFq5d.119047$D%.25113@attbi_s51>...
> > It would be interesting to take a poll--what do the Asian-Americans here
> > prefer? Do you find Oriental offensive?
>
>
> I don't find Oriental offensive. Asian just sounds better. In my case it's
> obvious that I am also American.
>
I first heard that Oriental was offensive from my sister's college
roommate, who is of Filipino descent. (I forget if she was born in
the US or the Philippines, but if she immigrated, it was quite young)
It was the first time I'd heard that, and was quite shocked that I
might be offending people. I've gradually switched to using Asian,
partly because of her, and also it seems more general. Around here,
there are Asians from all parts of Asia, so it's often hard to guess.

Irene

[Jamie Clark]

Call me what you will -- patient or client, I don't care. I stand up for
myself and will easily fire my care provider/doctor if I don't like the way
that they are dealing with me.

At the same time, I do believe in the positive aspects of language. I've
dealt with it in terms of infertility and now with adoption. Babies aren't
given away, they are placed for adoption.
--

Jamie & Taylor
Earth Angel, 1/3/03

Check out Taylor Marlys -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1,
Password: Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

Check out our Adoption Page at http://www.geocities.com/clarkadopt2004/


"ModernMiko" > wrote in message
news:2Nm5d.956$ku4.739@trnddc01...
> "Unadulterated Me" > wrote in message
> ...
>> ModernMiko wrote:
>>
>> > I'm sorry to be so blunt but what a crock. You're only powerless if you
>> > allow it to be that way. I think patient is an entirely appropriate
>> > term
> and
>> > only says that I am seeing a medical professional as compared to
>> > someone
>> > else like a contractor for the house....
>> >
>>
>> That's not true, if someone believes themselves to be a patient their
>> mind can and often does take the passive role of patient, you become the
>> poor sick peep who needs someone to care for them.
>> Being a client or a consumer has connotations of power, equality and
>> choice in the relationship. You'r2 engaging someone for a service, not
>> at the mercy of someone for their treatment. Language and imagery is
>> powerful.
>> Also being the patient buys into the medical model, that birth is a
>> medical event and needs medical treatment, that pregnancy and birth are
>> ailments that needs to be remedied. Granted pregnancy and birth can turn
>> medical and then you do become the patient, but for a good 80% of women
>> pregnancy and birth is a state of wellness and although they may benefit
>> from clinical screening they does not need a medical approach.
>>
>> Andrea
>
> I'm sorry. I just don't buy into it. Again I respect your opinion but I
> think it's laying blame on language and not on the person to stand up for
> her or himself.
>
> --
> JennL
> DS 06/26/98
> 1 tiny angel 11/03
> EDD December 4 2004
>
> aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net
> --
> Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys
> with Swords
>
>

[Daye]

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 03:26:47 GMT, "Carol Ann"
> wrote:

>> It would be interesting to take a poll--what do the Asian-Americans here
>> prefer? Do you find Oriental offensive?
>
>
>I don't find Oriental offensive. Asian just sounds better. In my case it's
>obvious that I am also American.

I once asked a person what she preferred, and she explained to me that
Oriental was an adjective that described things (like rugs or vases)
and Asian was an adjective that described people.

Since then, I always follow her rule.

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan and Leopold
See Jayan and Leo: http://www.aloofhosting.com/jayleo/
Updated 28 Feb 2004

[Emily]

Leslie wrote:
> 4) It's just one of those old-fashioned terms that used to be used in a
> derogatory way by some, so we've adopted a new p.c. term. For example,
> "colored" was once a perfectly polite way to refer to black people, used by
> themselves. Now it's considered prejudiced. I think Negro was the next polite
> term, and no one says that anymore. Now the p.c. thing is African-American,
> although the black people I know use black and AA interchangeably.
>

As a linguist (with training in sociolinguistics, no less), I
have to jump in. I'd say that Leslie's right on here: In many,
if not most, of these cases, the term considered to be derogatory
isn't *inherently* derogatory (i.e., not based on some other word
that is inappropriate), it's just a matter of connotations that
have stuck to the word over the years of derogatory use. Sally
McConnell-Ginet has studied how the meanings of words change over
time, and argues that these kinds of intentions are very much
involved in meanings. She cites examples like "hussy" (which
came from a word meaning "housewife") and "mistress" (originally
parallel to "master". The historical change in meaning of these
words is bound up with attitudes towards women held by speakers
(and shared in society) through the past few centuries.

As for Sapir-Whorf, most linguists don't buy the "strong" form
of it (which neither Sapir nor Whorf ever espoused) that the
language we speak limits the way we can think. Nonetheless,
sociolinguists (especially those who do ethnographic work) find
that an awful lot of the things and categories in our world
(femininity, masculinity, motherhood, etc) are socially constructed.
That is, there is a basic biological difference between the sexes,
but the personality characteristics that are (normatively) supposed
to go with each sex are a matter of culture. We live in and
navigate every day an enormous symbolic system maintaining those
categories, and linguistic symbols are important pieces of it.
It is for this reason that overtly challenging the connections
(e.g., by referring to pregnant women visiting doctors as
clients rather than patients) can be very important.

/lecture

Emily
mom to Toby 5/1/02

[Emily]

> I don't find Oriental offensive. Asian just sounds better. In my case it's
> obvious that I am also American.

Why? What does the word "American" mean for you that would
make that obvious?

> Does Asian American only refer to full blooded Asians born in America? If
> so, what WOULD I be called?
>
> 1/2 Korean, 1/2 American

What I'm hoping for DS (DH is of [East] Indian descent) is that
he'll claim his two heritages (Indian and Eastern-European Jewish)
as both completely his own, and not think of them as halves.

Emily

[Emily]

Carol Ann wrote:
>
> My South African girlfriend just says she is South African. Obviously being
> tall, blond, blue eyed and beautiful, it is easy to see that she may also be
> of Dutch decent (which she is).

Sorry to get on your case here Carol Ann, but what does
"beautiful" have to do with it?

Emily

[Unadulterated Me]

Emily wrote:
> Carol Ann wrote:
>
>>
>> My South African girlfriend just says she is South African. Obviously
>> being
>> tall, blond, blue eyed and beautiful, it is easy to see that she may
>> also be
>> of Dutch decent (which she is).
>
>
> Sorry to get on your case here Carol Ann, but what does
> "beautiful" have to do with it?
>
> Emily

Yeah my husbands Dutch and their are some real scary items in his family
tree, beautiful does not come to mind. Tall yes, blond yes, obnoxious
and arrogant yes, blue eyed no, beautiful no lol...but that's just his
family I'm sure there are equally some lovely, humble, short statured,
brunette Dutch people too <g>

Andrea

[Ericka Kammerer]

Emily wrote:

> As for Sapir-Whorf, most linguists don't buy the "strong" form
> of it (which neither Sapir nor Whorf ever espoused) that the
> language we speak limits the way we can think.

Yes, but one doesn't have to buy the strong form
in order for one to understand that language shapes our
understanding of the world in very significant ways--
often in more significant ways than one would like to
admit.

> Nonetheless,
> sociolinguists (especially those who do ethnographic work) find
> that an awful lot of the things and categories in our world
> (femininity, masculinity, motherhood, etc) are socially constructed.
> That is, there is a basic biological difference between the sexes,
> but the personality characteristics that are (normatively) supposed
> to go with each sex are a matter of culture. We live in and
> navigate every day an enormous symbolic system maintaining those
> categories, and linguistic symbols are important pieces of it.
> It is for this reason that overtly challenging the connections
> (e.g., by referring to pregnant women visiting doctors as
> clients rather than patients) can be very important.

Absolutely. That's not to say that there aren't
examples of people attempting to co-opt language to
show a difference when there isn't one. You can, for
example, inflate a person's job title all you like, but
if he or she still is still paid dirt and has no
authority it doesn't really mean anything except that
you're trying to BS them ;-) But despite the old "sticks
and stones" thing, language *does* matter.

Best wishes,
Ericka
(who's among that group of folks who've done ethnographic
work and is definitely a True Believer in the social
construction of meaning ;-)

[Emily]

Unadulterated Me wrote:
> Emily wrote:
>
>> Carol Ann wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> My South African girlfriend just says she is South African.
>>> Obviously being
>>> tall, blond, blue eyed and beautiful, it is easy to see that she may
>>> also be
>>> of Dutch decent (which she is).
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry to get on your case here Carol Ann, but what does
>> "beautiful" have to do with it?
>>
>> Emily
>
>
> Yeah my husbands Dutch and their are some real scary items in his family
> tree, beautiful does not come to mind. Tall yes, blond yes, obnoxious
> and arrogant yes, blue eyed no, beautiful no lol...but that's just his
> family I'm sure there are equally some lovely, humble, short statured,
> brunette Dutch people too <g>
>
> Andrea

Actually, I wasn't trying to imply that Dutch means not beautiful,
but rather to point out that Carol Ann's post would seem to imply
that black African would means not beautiful.

Emily

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Unadulterated Me > wrote:

*Carol Ann wrote:
*
*> On my father's side, I am African-American. On my mother's side, I am Thai.
*
*See I wouldn't really think of Thailand as Asian, it would be more
*Indonesian/Malaysian I catagorise it with Bali, East Timor, Jakarta, and

Aren't those places all in Asia, though? Or are they not? My geography is
nothing to write home about :). Is NZ assigned to any particular
continent, for that matter, or is it geographically independent? :)


--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

[Hillary Israeli]

In utparenting.com>,
emilymr <emily@xxxxxx> wrote:

*Hey, I heard about that!! Or maybe it was another similar story -- a white
*guy from South Africa got a fellowship to law school for
*African-Americans, and then it was revoked... It seemed that
*"African-American" was code for "black".

That wasn't my friend (he was a cantorial student, not a law student, and
he didn't check of "African-American," as he wasn't American. He just
checked off "African" on a cultural survey!)

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

[Joybelle]

"Leslie" > wrote in message
...
> Joybelle said:
>
> > I love Emily Rose.
>
> Thanks. :-)
>
> >What will Lorelei's middle name be?
>
> Elizabeth . . . which is my sister's, my mother's, and my grandmother's
name!

What an awesome name! :) Elizabeth has always been one of my favorite
names. When I was in grade school my best friend's name was Betsy, so I
named my favorite doll Laura Elizabeth after her and my grandma. The
Christina in Iris's name was also because she was born on my cousin
Christine's 15th birthday (and Christine was, of course, named after my
grandmother who I was named after and various other cousins, also).

> Your boys all have such traditional,
> >masculine names, and I LOVE that.
>
> Thanks! We think it's pretty funny that all three of their first names
are
> names of kings of England. (And it Lorelei had been a boy, she was to be
> James, so there's another!)

Oh, funny!

> Spencer was the name of a very spiritual
> >man I knew growing up. I remember loving his name, Spencer Tracey's
name,
> >and just hearing the name. LOL... I tried, I really did, to go with
> >something different, but I am so glad we went with it.
>
> My Teddy's best friend from school is Spencer. I do think it's a nice
> name--cute for a little boy but manly as well.

Yup, my criteria. :) I do hear a few Spencer's around here. I think a lot
of them were born in 98-99...

> >My sister and I loved to sit around and come up with names. I still have
a
> >notebook that has some of the names we considered.
>
> My 13 year old does this. She practically has the baby name book
memorized,
> seriously! She can tell you the meaning of tons of names.

Yes, I was like this.

> >> If you have another girl will she have a flower name too?
> >
> >Definitely! Last time I went through a real searching process to figure
out
> >the flower name that was different, but I think I'm stuck on Lily or
Violet.
> >I need twins so I can use them both. :)
>
> Oh, definitely! I think they are both pretty . . . Violet would be more
> unusual, and I love violets! When they would pop up in our front yard, I
would
> refuse to mow until they were gone. :-)

Oh, you sound like my dad! He doesn't mow the violets, creeping charlie or
dandelions if he can help it. Fortunately, I have violets grow in areas
that don't have to be mowed, as my husband isn't so considerate of the
pretty things. Violet is my personal favorite name. I just love, love,
love it. If Spencer would have been a girl he would most like have been
Violet. But I never know! Lily has gotten soooooo popular recently, but it
is also a lovely name.

> When I was pg with my first hubby
> >and I jokingly made a list of three flower names we were going to name
our
> >girls. Rose Deborah (after my mom), Lily Robyn (after his mom), and
Daisy
> >Joy. So far, it is Rose Helena (after his great-grandmother) and Iris
> >Christina (after my grandmother and me). It is funny how things change.
:)
>
> Beautiful names!

Thank you!


--
Joy

Rose 1-30-99
Iris 2-28-01
Spencer 3-12-03

[Maggie]

Hillary Israeli spake thusly
>In >,
>Unadulterated Me > wrote:
>
>*
>*See I wouldn't really think of Thailand as Asian, it would be more
>*Indonesian/Malaysian I catagorise it with Bali, East Timor, Jakarta, and
>
>Aren't those places all in Asia, though? Or are they not? My geography is
>nothing to write home about :). Is NZ assigned to any particular
>continent, for that matter, or is it geographically independent? :)
>

NZ is often lumped in with Australia, as part of "Australasia", though
now I've been seeing more mentions of "Oceania", and a few of "Pacific
Rim".
--
Maggie

[Unadulterated Me]

Hillary Israeli wrote:

> In >,
> Unadulterated Me > wrote:
>
> *Carol Ann wrote:
> *
> *> On my father's side, I am African-American. On my mother's side, I am Thai.
> *
> *See I wouldn't really think of Thailand as Asian, it would be more
> *Indonesian/Malaysian I catagorise it with Bali, East Timor, Jakarta, and
>
> Aren't those places all in Asia, though? Or are they not? My geography is
> nothing to write home about :).

They are, but I think they are more labeled South East Asia. Like I
don't really think of England as Europe even though it is geographically
located there I guess.
Perhaps for us as we are located more closely to those countries, many
of them are regular holiday spots for Kiwis, like Bali and Thailand,that
we geographically separate them in our thinking.

> Is NZ assigned to any particular
> continent, for that matter, or is it geographically independent? :)
>

We are part of Australasia, but sometimes grouped with the Islands as
Oceania, depends what book you pick up really.

Andrea

[Leslie]

Joybelle said:

>What an awesome name! :)

Thanks.

Elizabeth has always been one of my favorite
>names.

Me too. I would really like to use it as a first name but as I said it is my
sister's name and she seems to think she has first dibs.

When I was in grade school my best friend's name was Betsy,

That's what my sister is called, and my mother goes by Beth.

so I
>named my favorite doll Laura Elizabeth after her and my grandma. The
>Christina in Iris's name was also because she was born on my cousin
>Christine's 15th birthday (and Christine was, of course, named after my
>grandmother who I was named after and various other cousins, also).

Oh, that's nice. I think Christina is even prettier than Christine.

>
>> Your boys all have such traditional,
>> >masculine names, and I LOVE that.
>>
>> Thanks! We think it's pretty funny that all three of their first names
>are
>> names of kings of England. (And it Lorelei had been a boy, she was to be
>> James, so there's another!)
>
>Oh, funny!
>
>> Spencer was the name of a very spiritual
>> >man I knew growing up. I remember loving his name, Spencer Tracey's
>name,
>> >and just hearing the name. LOL... I tried, I really did, to go with
>> >something different, but I am so glad we went with it.
>>
>> My Teddy's best friend from school is Spencer. I do think it's a nice
>> name--cute for a little boy but manly as well.
>
>Yup, my criteria. :)

That's what I like about Jake as well.

I do hear a few Spencer's around here. I think a lot
>of them were born in 98-99...
>
>> >My sister and I loved to sit around and come up with names. I still have
>a
>> >notebook that has some of the names we considered.
>>
>> My 13 year old does this. She practically has the baby name book
>memorized,
>> seriously! She can tell you the meaning of tons of names.
>
>Yes, I was like this.
>
>> >> If you have another girl will she have a flower name too?
>> >
>> >Definitely! Last time I went through a real searching process to figure
>out
>> >the flower name that was different, but I think I'm stuck on Lily or
>Violet.
>> >I need twins so I can use them both. :)
>>
>> Oh, definitely! I think they are both pretty . . . Violet would be more
>> unusual, and I love violets! When they would pop up in our front yard, I
>would
>> refuse to mow until they were gone. :-)
>
>Oh, you sound like my dad! He doesn't mow the violets, creeping charlie or
>dandelions if he can help it. Fortunately, I have violets grow in areas
>that don't have to be mowed, as my husband isn't so considerate of the
>pretty things.

LOL. The violets in our old yard were in an area that didn't matter either,
but we had buttercups right up in the front yard and so we always had strange
tall patches until they died back. :-)

Violet is my personal favorite name. I just love, love,
>love it. If Spencer would have been a girl he would most like have been
>Violet. But I never know! Lily has gotten soooooo popular recently, but it
>is also a lovely name.
>
>> When I was pg with my first hubby
>> >and I jokingly made a list of three flower names we were going to name
>our
>> >girls. Rose Deborah (after my mom), Lily Robyn (after his mom), and
>Daisy
>> >Joy. So far, it is Rose Helena (after his great-grandmother) and Iris
>> >Christina (after my grandmother and me). It is funny how things change.
>:)
>>
>> Beautiful names!
>
>Thank you!
>

:-)


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Melania]

(Hillary Israeli) wrote in message >...
> In >,
> Unadulterated Me > wrote:
>
> *Carol Ann wrote:
> *
> *> On my father's side, I am African-American. On my mother's side, I am Thai.
> *
> *See I wouldn't really think of Thailand as Asian, it would be more
> *Indonesian/Malaysian I catagorise it with Bali, East Timor, Jakarta, and
>
> Aren't those places all in Asia, though? Or are they not? My geography is
> nothing to write home about :). Is NZ assigned to any particular
> continent, for that matter, or is it geographically independent? :)

They are all in Asia. However, the definition of Asia is a (largely)
European construct that covers a ludicrous percentage of the Earth:
the "Near East", "Middle East" or "Central Asia", "Far East" or "East
Asia", "Indian subcontinent", and "Southeast Asia".
http://www.countriesandcities.com/continents/asia/countries.htm

Pretty silly that Europe gets to be its own continent but the Japanese
and the Jordanians have to share, don't you think? So, in order to
compensate for the inadequacies of the 7-continent model, we end up
with terms like "Eurasia", and all the other subcategories listed
above.

For my part I definitely consider Thailand as Asian, but am
hard-pressed to think of people from Iran or Turkey as Asian. One
breath about this to my husband will set him off on his continent rant
again!

New Zealand, along with Papua New Guinea (which of course is conjoined
with Indonesia, in Asia!) and the Melanesian/Micronesian/Pacific
islands, is considered part of "Oceania" - so's Australia. But of
course, Australia's also its OWN continent . . . and Oceania
definitely didn't exist when I was in school.

I've even heard of Australasia.

The point is that, just like the words we use to indicate physical,
geographical, or cultural differences between people, the words we use
to subdivide the planet into regions are mutable and subjective.

Cheers,
Melania,
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[Emily]

Leslie wrote:

> Emily said:
>
>
>>As a linguist (with training in sociolinguistics, no less), I
>>have to jump in.
>
>
> I enjoyed the lecture. :-) Linguistics is more or less a hobby of mine--I took
> a beginning linguistics course at Georgetown and two different graduate courses
> in linguistics at UT (Language and the Law, American English). Also Old English
> which has a fair amount of linguistics in it. And I'm always reading books
> about the English language, so this kind of thing is very interesting to me.
> :-)
>

Thanks -- I'm glad you liked it. UT and Georgetown both have
good linguistics programs, too.

Emily

[Unadulterated Me]

Melania wrote:

> I've even heard of Australasia.
>

Australasia is the term we use in reference to being linked with
Australia, it usually just refers to us and Aus but sometimes it
includes PNG and the little Islands around the top of Aus. For instance
when we say NZ has the highest tower in Australasia, we mean ours is
bigger than anything Aus has ;-)
When we refer to our relationship with our pacific Islands neighbors
(Cook, Samoa, Tonga, etc) we call ourselves Polynesia, or Oceania which
would be the lesser used term. Pacifica is another term used but more a
term we use to talk about things (food, clothing, rituals) than people
or area.

Andrea

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Melania > wrote:

(Hillary Israeli) wrote in message >...
*> In >,
*> Unadulterated Me > wrote:
*>
*> *Carol Ann wrote:
*> *
*> *> On my father's side, I am African-American. On my mother's side, I am Thai.
*> *
*> *See I wouldn't really think of Thailand as Asian, it would be more
*> *Indonesian/Malaysian I catagorise it with Bali, East Timor, Jakarta, and
*>
*> Aren't those places all in Asia, though? Or are they not? My geography is
*> nothing to write home about :). Is NZ assigned to any particular
*> continent, for that matter, or is it geographically independent? :)
*
*They are all in Asia. However, the definition of Asia is a (largely)
*European construct that covers a ludicrous percentage of the Earth:

It is?? I thought that the concept of the basic continents was pretty much
agreed upon by geographers world-over. I had no idea it was considered
European. What do the (dare I say) Asian geographers have to say about
this??

*Pretty silly that Europe gets to be its own continent but the Japanese
*and the Jordanians have to share, don't you think? So, in order to

Well, no - not if my understanding of what a continent is is correct. Can
someone define "continent" for me in technical terms?

h.

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

[Leslie]

>Well, no - not if my understanding of what a continent is is correct. Can
>someone define "continent" for me in technical terms?

If you look at the continents, it does seem that the separation of Europe from
Asia is artificial, and seems to be based more on ethnicity than geography,
IMO. North and South America are barely connected physically. Africa,
Australia, and Antarctica are separate land masses, but Europe and Asia are the
same body of land.


Leslie

Emily (2/4/91)
Jake (1/27/94)
Teddy (2/15/95)
William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04

"Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
~ William Wordsworth

[Sophie]

"Unadulterated Me" > wrote in message
...
> Melania wrote:
>
> > I've even heard of Australasia.
> >
>
> Australasia is the term we use in reference to being linked with
> Australia, it usually just refers to us and Aus but sometimes it
> includes PNG and the little Islands around the top of Aus. For instance
> when we say NZ has the highest tower in Australasia, we mean ours is
> bigger than anything Aus has ;-)
> When we refer to our relationship with our pacific Islands neighbors
> (Cook, Samoa, Tonga, etc) we call ourselves Polynesia, or Oceania which
> would be the lesser used term. Pacifica is another term used but more a
> term we use to talk about things (food, clothing, rituals) than people
> or area.
>
> Andrea

I've heard of Australasia. My Kiwi friend called people from islands around
her Pacific Islanders.

[Zaz]

As a matter of fact, the new version of continents in the 1980s identified
five continents:

- The Americas (including North, Central and South Americas)
- Eurasia (englobing Europe and Asia)
- Africa
- Oceania (including Australia, New Zealand, and some archipelagos which I
don't remember)
- Antartica


The technical definition of a continent is a mass of earth surrounded by
oceans.
That's what I've learned in geography classes...

I surmise that one of the reasons for Asia and Europe to be so separate to
begin with was that for a long time, Europeans did not know there were the
Americas between Europe and Asia... Didn't Columbus think he had found India
(but really, he had been hoping for China) when he landed in America? And
later, the French thought they had reached India when they landed in Québec.
They had not travelled the road by earth to get to India, China, Japan,
etc...

"Leslie" > wrote in message
...
> >Well, no - not if my understanding of what a continent is is correct. Can
>>someone define "continent" for me in technical terms?
>
> If you look at the continents, it does seem that the separation of Europe
> from
> Asia is artificial, and seems to be based more on ethnicity than
> geography,
> IMO. North and South America are barely connected physically. Africa,
> Australia, and Antarctica are separate land masses, but Europe and Asia
> are the
> same body of land.
>
>
> Leslie
>
> Emily (2/4/91)
> Jake (1/27/94)
> Teddy (2/15/95)
> William (3/5/01 -- VBA3C, 13 lbs. 5 oz.)
> and Lorelei, expected 11/2/04
>
> "Children come trailing clouds of glory from God, which is their home."
> ~ William Wordsworth
>

[toypup]

"Zaz" > wrote in message
...
> The technical definition of a continent is a mass of earth surrounded by
> oceans.
> That's what I've learned in geography classes...
>
> I surmise that one of the reasons for Asia and Europe to be so separate to
> begin with was that for a long time, Europeans did not know there were the
> Americas between Europe and Asia... Didn't Columbus think he had found
> India (but really, he had been hoping for China) when he landed in
> America? And later, the French thought they had reached India when they
> landed in Québec.
> They had not travelled the road by earth to get to India, China, Japan,
> etc...

But they knew how to get to Asia by land, so they knew that Europe and Asia
were connected by land. They wanted to find a way by sea to avoid having to
cross by land. The people who owned land along the routes they were using
were making it too expensive for them to go by land and they thought it
might be easier by sea. I just find it hard to imagine travel in those
days.

[Zaz]

I stand corrected: you're right. What I believe though is that no one had
done the entire trip by land (or maybe just one monk who went to China, a
Ricci guy). Mostly the "spice" road was traveled as a relay: some went
between India and China, others between Arabia and India, etc...

Anyway, Asia I don't think the notion of continent back then was really a
geographic one, and there I agree with another poster. We've got to remember
that racism was the norm in those days, and no one would have felt any shame
at setting boundaries based on colour of skin... Come to think of it, even
today some still think it is right. Go figure.

"toypup" > wrote in message
news:q007d.393943$8_6.201468@attbi_s04...
>
> "Zaz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> The technical definition of a continent is a mass of earth surrounded by
>> oceans.
>> That's what I've learned in geography classes...
>>
>> I surmise that one of the reasons for Asia and Europe to be so separate
>> to begin with was that for a long time, Europeans did not know there were
>> the Americas between Europe and Asia... Didn't Columbus think he had
>> found India (but really, he had been hoping for China) when he landed in
>> America? And later, the French thought they had reached India when they
>> landed in Québec.
>> They had not travelled the road by earth to get to India, China, Japan,
>> etc...
>
> But they knew how to get to Asia by land, so they knew that Europe and
> Asia were connected by land. They wanted to find a way by sea to avoid
> having to cross by land. The people who owned land along the routes they
> were using were making it too expensive for them to go by land and they
> thought it might be easier by sea. I just find it hard to imagine travel
> in those days.
>

[toypup]

"Zaz" > wrote in message
...
> Anyway, Asia I don't think the notion of continent back then was really a
> geographic one, and there I agree with another poster. We've got to
> remember that racism was the norm in those days, and no one would have
> felt any shame at setting boundaries based on colour of skin... Come to
> think of it, even today some still think it is right. Go figure.

There are many societies today where it's okay to express racist sentiments.

[H Schinske]

Andrea writes:

>They are, but I think they are more labeled South East Asia. Like I
>don't really think of England as Europe even though it is geographically
>located there I guess.

Well, the UK is at least an island nation, so it makes a tiny bit of sense to
think of it as not exactly Europe. I know a Swede who insists that all those
countries on their peninsula out there are not actually part of Europe proper,
which boggles my mind. But then, Europe and Asia are so obviously the same
continent that calling them two different continents boggles me even more!

--Helen

[Emily]

toypup wrote:
>
> There are many societies today where it's okay to express racist sentiments.

I lived in France for a year in 1989-1990, and was asked
one day: "es-tu raciste?" Even though the word was a perfect
cognate, I couldn't understand what I'd be asked, because
I couldn't conceive that anyone would ask that question.
Regardless of the facts, who would ever say yes (or oui)?
Apparently, though, in France around then, some would. It
was the beginning of the era of Le Pen, I believe.

Emily

[Emily]

emilymr wrote:

> In the US, "Asian-American" was a term coined in the 60s by student
> radicals in CA, who were protesting the colonialism/exotification implied
> in the term "Oriental". Today in the US (in academia, anyway), it's used
> to include east, southeast and south Asians. It's also a pretty vague
> term, and has some specific political connotations (solidarity, common
> history of oppression and "differential inclusion" in US society). This
> can be problematic for people -- particularly because not all Asian
> Americans have the *same* history, political leanings, experiences, etc.
> Depending on the context, I'd call myself an American (if I were in
> another country), an Asian American or a Japanese American (if I were
> teaching AA history), or a hapa -- Hawaiian for "half", meaning half Asian
> and half Caucasian. I think hapa is my favorite. :)
>
> Em
> baby boy, due Nov. 18
>

Another thing about "Asian-American" is that is explicitly
states a claim to "American" nationality in a way that
"Oriental" doesn't.

Emily

[Zaz]

As in many places in Europe... The history of modern Europe is tainted with
racism. Well, as is that of Canada and the US, for that matter.

I wonder though: if someone answers "yes" to the "are you a racist"
question, thus stating that he/she is, isn't that better than someone
answering "no", while acting all the time like one? Anyway, that could lead
to a long debate - my my my how we can stray from the topic of pregnancy,
can't we?

"Emily" > wrote in message
news:0rq7d.94371$wV.35597@attbi_s54...
> toypup wrote:
>>
>> There are many societies today where it's okay to express racist
>> sentiments.
>
> I lived in France for a year in 1989-1990, and was asked
> one day: "es-tu raciste?" Even though the word was a perfect
> cognate, I couldn't understand what I'd be asked, because
> I couldn't conceive that anyone would ask that question.
> Regardless of the facts, who would ever say yes (or oui)?
> Apparently, though, in France around then, some would. It
> was the beginning of the era of Le Pen, I believe.
>
> Emily

[Emily]

Zaz wrote:

> As in many places in Europe... The history of modern Europe is tainted with
> racism. Well, as is that of Canada and the US, for that matter.
>
> I wonder though: if someone answers "yes" to the "are you a racist"
> question, thus stating that he/she is, isn't that better than someone
> answering "no", while acting all the time like one? Anyway, that could lead
> to a long debate - my my my how we can stray from the topic of pregnancy,
> can't we?

Well, on the one hand, invisible racism (e.g., institutional
racism) is pernicious. Still, I have to think that a society
where holding racist attitudes is frowned upon to the point that
no one would own up to it is further along that one where it's
still considered a respectable or avowable position to hold.

Emil

[Zaz]

"Emily" > wrote in message
news:KtZ7d.104472$wV.13435@attbi_s54...
Still, I have to think that a society
> where holding racist attitudes is frowned upon to the point that
> no one would own up to it is further along that one where it's
> still considered a respectable or avowable position to hold.
>
> Emil

It would depend on the person's reaction to the answer to the question...

European countries are a thing in themselves, compared to North American
countries, however. Last night on TV the author Dany Laferrière (born in
Haïti, now a Québécois), was telling how people at the Movie Fest in Namur
(Belgium) thought it strange that he had made a movie about Haitians and
Quebecers interacting together on a day to day basis, and yet where racism
was never discussed or hinted at.

As if they couldn't fathom a story between people of different ethnic
backgrounds where the question of colour never arose.

[Larry McMahan]

Jill > writes:
: soooooooooo bad! I plan to wean Rachel when she is 1 if she hasn't already
: weaned herself. I figure by 1 at the latest, she will be on enough solids
: and able to have cow's milk. I don't want to wean her when she will have to
: have formula, so a year is fine by me. She has never been sick yet, knock on
: wood. People tell me that's when she will get her first cold, right after I
: wean her. I have heard that from so many people.

I know this is NOMB (none of my business) but I have to point out a couple
of things. I hope you are not offended. :-)
1. Studies show that you are much stronger for the next baby if you
get pregnant at 18 to 30 months after the first.
2. Nursing two years can cut your risk of breast cancer in half.
(although the gain in the last 6 months may not be significant.

Based on those, I think it could be reasonable to wait until 18 months,
then try to TTC without weaning, and continue to nurse as long as
you have milk.

Just a thought,
Larry

[Mum of Two]

"Carol Ann" > wrote in message
news:nlC5d.115424$MQ5.55753@attbi_s52...

> Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html

Oooooh.....you'd look at home on the Charlie's Angels set!
I don't seem to notice people's race when I meet them in person, but from
your photo, I'd probably say you look Asian. I was about 11 when I found out
from my mother that my aunt was not only adopted, but Maori (native New
Zealander). I'd never noticed, and I don't think I was a dumb kid.

I like your site, it sounds like we have similar qualities, ;-)
except that I'd like to borrow your photo for my website. Cameras are unkind
to me (too truthful I think lol)


--
Amy,
Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02,
& Ana born screaming 30/06/04
email: barton . souto @ clear . net . nz (join the dots!)
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/c/carlos2002/

[Carol Ann]

>> Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html
>
> Oooooh.....you'd look at home on the Charlie's Angels set!
> I don't seem to notice people's race when I meet them in person, but from
> your photo, I'd probably say you look Asian. I was about 11 when I found
> out
> from my mother that my aunt was not only adopted, but Maori (native New
> Zealander). I'd never noticed, and I don't think I was a dumb kid.
>
> I like your site, it sounds like we have similar qualities, ;-)
> except that I'd like to borrow your photo for my website. Cameras are
> unkind
> to me (too truthful I think lol)

You are sooooooo kind to say that! I am actually STILL 40 - 50 lbs over my
ideal weight. So, honestly, those pictures are a bit misleading. LOL!!

I now try to avoid being in front of the camera opting instead to take
hundreds of pictures of my girl!!

~Carol Ann

[Mum of Two]

"Carol Ann" > wrote in message
news:IKdod.67824$V41.20806@attbi_s52...
>>> Have you seen a picture of me? http://www.bestinatlanta.com/me2.html
>>
>> Oooooh.....you'd look at home on the Charlie's Angels set!
>> I don't seem to notice people's race when I meet them in person, but from
>> your photo, I'd probably say you look Asian. I was about 11 when I found
>> out
>> from my mother that my aunt was not only adopted, but Maori (native New
>> Zealander). I'd never noticed, and I don't think I was a dumb kid.
>>
>> I like your site, it sounds like we have similar qualities, ;-)
>> except that I'd like to borrow your photo for my website. Cameras are
>> unkind
>> to me (too truthful I think lol)
>
> You are sooooooo kind to say that! I am actually STILL 40 - 50 lbs over
> my ideal weight. So, honestly, those pictures are a bit misleading.
> LOL!!

I wasn't being kind, that isn't one of my good qualities....lol...I was
being honest. I truly hope those photos are pre-pg and you are not looking
like that and trying to lose weight, because in those you don't look like
you can stand to lose any.

> I now try to avoid being in front of the camera opting instead to take
> hundreds of pictures of my girl!!

Me too! But I was a little sad the other day when I thought about how there
are hardly any photos of me holding Ana, I'm always the one taking them, and
while it suits me fine now, I wonder how she'll feel later on? I mean, as
Mums, however overweight or imperfect we may be, we're the only mothers they
have, and they're probably going to want memories, YKWIM?

--
Amy,
Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02,
& Ana born screaming 30/06/04
email: barton . souto @ clear . net . nz (join the dots!)
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/c/carlos2002/

[Vicky Bilaniuk]

Mum of Two wrote:
> Me too! But I was a little sad the other day when I thought about how there
> are hardly any photos of me holding Ana, I'm always the one taking them, and
> while it suits me fine now, I wonder how she'll feel later on? I mean, as
> Mums, however overweight or imperfect we may be, we're the only mothers they
> have, and they're probably going to want memories, YKWIM?

This is actually why I ask my DH to take a few pics of me with Max every
now and then. I never post those, though. ;-) They're just for Max,
when he's older, so that he'll know what his mommy looked like when he
was a baby.

[Anne Rogers]

> This is actually why I ask my DH to take a few pics of me with Max every
> now and then. I never post those, though. ;-) They're just for Max,
> when he's older, so that he'll know what his mommy looked like when he was
> a baby.

I'm the one that takes the photos in our family, so I don't tend to get on
many photos, my parents have taken quite a few though and they do digital so
they put them on CD for us.

[Mum of Two]

Good advice, Richard.

--
Amy,
Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02,
& Ana born screaming 30/06/04
email: barton . souto @ clear . net . nz (join the dots!)
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/c/carlos2002/


"Richard" > wrote in message
...
> Carol Ann > wrote:
> : [ . . . ]
> : I now try to avoid being in front of the camera opting instead to take
> : hundreds of pictures of my girl!!
>
> Bite the bullet and take pictures, lots of pictures, of yourself.
>
> One of my wife's colleagues lost both of his parents last year. Going
> through
> their belongings, he found hundreds of pictures of him and his siblings,
> and
> almost none of his parents. He feels this hole in his past.
>
> With a digital camera and CD burner, there's no reason not to take plenty
> of
> pictures (and even video clips) of uneventful, day-to-day life.
> Paraphrasing
> an Indiana Jones movie, "Take this teacup, practically worthless. Bury it
> for
> a thousand years and it becomes priceless." So take this moment,
> seemingly
> meaningless, record it, give it to your children, and in fifty years, it,
> too,
> will be priceless.
>
> Richard
> still thrilled to be Micaela's dad (25 mo)
>

[Carol Ann]

>> I now try to avoid being in front of the camera opting instead to take
>> hundreds of pictures of my girl!!
>
> Me too! But I was a little sad the other day when I thought about how
> there are hardly any photos of me holding Ana, I'm always the one taking
> them, and while it suits me fine now, I wonder how she'll feel later on? I
> mean, as Mums, however overweight or imperfect we may be, we're the only
> mothers they have, and they're probably going to want memories, YKWIM?

I know what you mean. I have to tell Kevin to take pictures of me with
Morgan. There are also no videos of me playing with her.

On my WISH LIST: Tripod for video and camera.

LOL!

~Carol Ann

[Carol Ann]

> : I now try to avoid being in front of the camera opting instead to take
> : hundreds of pictures of my girl!!
>
> Bite the bullet and take pictures, lots of pictures, of yourself.
>
> One of my wife's colleagues lost both of his parents last year. Going
> through
> their belongings, he found hundreds of pictures of him and his siblings,
> and
> almost none of his parents. He feels this hole in his past.
>
> With a digital camera and CD burner, there's no reason not to take plenty
> of
> pictures (and even video clips) of uneventful, day-to-day life.
> Paraphrasing
> an Indiana Jones movie, "Take this teacup, practically worthless. Bury it
> for
> a thousand years and it becomes priceless." So take this moment,
> seemingly
> meaningless, record it, give it to your children, and in fifty years, it,
> too,
> will be priceless.
>
> Richard
> still thrilled to be Micaela's dad (25 mo)

Fantastic advice. I agree. I'm getting a tripod in order to be able to
film us. My mother, for some odd reason, also hates to have her picture
taken, so I have to sneak them in.

I keep telling her that Morgan will want them.........


~Carol Ann

[[email protected]]

How are they not?
Not of direct or recent african descent, but certainly some of their
ancestors came from there.
OTOH, not all black people are "African American" I hate reading
results from studies of people of African descent and it says "African
Americans", you dont know if it applies only to AAs, or also black
Jamaicans, Haitians, Puerto Ricans ie people of African ancestry, or
JUST american blacks.
Ugh

[[email protected]]

I've always thought you looked Asian. But thats not a bad thing :)
Anyway, there are a lot of AmerAsian people in Columbus/Ft Benning,
being an Army brat I've gotten used to it, so its noticeable to me.