Stay-at-Home Dad Blues

[Sonnie B.]

hey there. here's my situation. DD is 1 & DS is 2 1/2.

we enjoy a lot of time playing both indoors and outside, going to
cultural enriching places
like museums, zoos, parks, kids theaters, etc.

however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
these things, I often feel
quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
their children away, or
when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
patronizing or condescending
response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.

I've tried integrating the kids with several groups, but despite their
good nature and behavior,
it never seems to take. I have lots of friends and I am married, so I
can't believe it is only me
and how I approach these activities.

In fact, the other day when a woman's child began bullying my son, I
very firmly told the child
to stop it and explained he was frightening my little boy. The kid
apologized but had an almost
shocked looked upon him. The mother eventually intervened and
basically told the kid that
"he didn't know you were playing chase with him. Let's leave them
alone." and she walked off
with the kid. No apology, no conversation of what happened. nada,

This has been the most difficult part of my transition as a
stay-at-home dad. It's really difficult
for me to find adults to socialize with during the children's activity
times.

I've invited neighbors over for playtime with our kids, I had small
get togethers with creative
activities, etc. Everyone seems to have a grand time, but there's
never any follow up from the
moms of the neighborhood.

I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong or what I could do
different.

It may just be a case that they actually don't like me - but I find
that the toughest thing to believe.

Any thoughts??

Thanks a bunch ~ SB

[P. Tierney]

"Sonnie B." > wrote in message
om...
> hey there. here's my situation. DD is 1 & DS is 2 1/2.
>
> we enjoy a lot of time playing both indoors and outside, going to
> cultural enriching places
> like museums, zoos, parks, kids theaters, etc.

My child is 19 months and I've done similar activities since
I started staying home with her, at around five months of age.
We go to some place like those above pretty much everyday.

> however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
> these things, I often feel
> quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
> their children away, or
> when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
> patronizing or condescending
> response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.

I can't say for sure as to why this is, as I've never tried to
strike up a conversation with a parent at such a place. I'm sure
I've made a side comment as it relates to the kid's activities,
but nothing more. No parent has ever veered their kids away
from me (not that I know of, anyway), so that seems a bit odd.
Most parents are mothers, but there are fathers around at times
too, and there are often male adults, as schools and day camps
frequent such places too. Anyway....

I think that a lot of parents stick to those that they came with
in such places. It's not all that unusual, and has more to do with
the comfort level of that parent than anything else. That isn't
something that one can change in a stranger.

> I've tried integrating the kids with several groups, but despite their
> good nature and behavior,
> it never seems to take. I have lots of friends and I am married, so I
> can't believe it is only me
> and how I approach these activities.

Do any of those friends have kids, and if so, why not them?
I'm sure that many of the parents who travel in packs do so
with friends who also happen to have kids.

> This has been the most difficult part of my transition as a
> stay-at-home dad. It's really difficult
> for me to find adults to socialize with during the children's activity
> times.

It used to be a difficulty for me (or perhaps "irritant" would be a
better word) but not so much because I needed socialization, but
because I wanted my child to have it. It irritated me, for example,
that getting together with neighbors was a difficulty, while a female
parent from a few streets down shouted out her name and address
and said "come by anytime you want" to a just-met SAHM who lives
near me, while such a thing would be an impossibility for me.
And it *still* irritates me that parents in my larger neighborhood
drive 5-10 miles away to meet SAHPs who are complete strangers
at a church while there are kids and parents in the neighborhood that
are within a short walk. Anyway.....

At some point (when my kid was 10 months, maybe), I stopped
caring and focused on what I did have. I spent a lot of time with my
kid, did a lot of things, and figured that outside socialization would
come later. In the process, we've built a good relationship. And
some of that socialization has come, as two neighbors with kids
born within the same month of mine have been calling regularly
back and forth for a few months now.

> I've invited neighbors over for playtime with our kids, I had small
> get togethers with creative
> activities, etc. Everyone seems to have a grand time, but there's
> never any follow up from the
> moms of the neighborhood.

While it would be nice if they did, there isn't anything wrong
with you doing all of the following-up for now. Keep inviting
them every so often, without being aggressive about it. If
the good times continue, they'll eventually follow-up in kind.
Also, if you think that they (or some individuals) would be
confortable with it, ask them if they'd like to meet sometime
at the zoo, park, or one of the other places that you frequent.

> I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong or what I could do
> different.

It depends on what your goal is, but if the goal is to create
long-term friends/companions for your child, then I'd start at
the local level (those whom you've invited over), and perhaps
try to branch out into a local parent group (like ones at church),
if you know of any.

Also, with your son being 2.5, it won't be long, if it hasn't
happened already, for him to start taking some type of "class"
or doing a more organized activity, such as swim lessons,
gymnastics (or "tumbling"), or whatever. That's another
occassion to meet people who have similar interests, and is
another way to slowly build a friendship.

> It may just be a case that they actually don't like me - but I find
> that the toughest thing to believe.

While it might be obvious, it's still worth pointing out that
there is no "they" with regards to motivations. There are many
different reasons in which some might have steered clear of
you, such as: fear of strangers, threatened by men, has a husband
who would be threatened by another man around the house when
he's not there, too busy to bother, already with other friends,
generally disinterested in social intereaction with others (which
is how I often am in public). And there are many other reasons,
some of which might make sense to you, and some not. Trying
to figure out those that fall in the latter category is really an
exercise in futility.

> Any thoughts??

They are all above, and I'll clarify/add anything as needed.
But one question -- how long have you been at home with the
kids? I've been at home for 16 months, and I'm wondering how
long you've been at this.


P.
Tierney

[Noreen Cooper]

Sonnie B. > wrote:

: however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
: these things, I often feel
: quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
: their children away, or
: when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
: patronizing or condescending
: response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.

Unfortunately, the bias does exist against SAHDs. I would go out of my
way to talk to SAHDs on the playground because their gender did exclude
them from the club. One of my first close "parent" friends was a SAHD.

What he did was continue to initiate conversations on the playground
until he met SAHMs whom he connected with. He and I would get together
once or twice a weeks for playdates when our kids were toddlers and
although I have moved out of the City, we still keep in touch to this day.

Another thing he to meet friends was to become active in the local public
school board while his daughter was in preschool. He would volunteer his
time for a particular cause and made friends that way, too.

I'm sorry you're having to deal with this kind of discrimination. Just
know there are women like me out there who do go out of our way to make
SAHDs feel welcome. You just need to keep trying.

Noreen

[Marnie]

"Sonnie B." > wrote in message
om...
> hey there. here's my situation. DD is 1 & DS is 2 1/2.
>
> we enjoy a lot of time playing both indoors and outside, going to
> cultural enriching places
> like museums, zoos, parks, kids theaters, etc.
>
> however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
> these things, I often feel
> quite left out.

I am sorry this is happening to you! I think it's a wonderful thing for kids
to have their dads as full-time caregivers. But I could totally see where
you'd feel left out ... sometimes it's hard for moms to connect with other
moms, then when you toss in the whole gender thing, it's got to be tough.

Let me second Heidi's excellent advice: find some parent/tot activities,
regularly scheduled at a neutral site. It could be a playgroup, a tumbling
class, a class at the zoo, kindermusik or suchlike, something with the park
district, if you've got one. This would give moms who might have a little
(misplaced) discomfort about SAHDs get to know you, and give your kids a
chance to connect with other kids more than once.

One of my best parent-friends is a SAHD, and we first met at a weekly
gymnastics class.

You might look for groups that aren't necessarily "mom's clubs." In our area
there is Early Childhood PTA and PACES ... maybe there is something similar
where you are. They might have park playgroups and fieldtrips and events.

Good luck. I hope you find something that works.

--
Marnie
--

[Ericka Kammerer]

Sonnie B. wrote:


> This has been the most difficult part of my transition as a
> stay-at-home dad. It's really difficult
> for me to find adults to socialize with during the children's activity
> times.
>
> I've invited neighbors over for playtime with our kids, I had small
> get togethers with creative
> activities, etc. Everyone seems to have a grand time, but there's
> never any follow up from the
> moms of the neighborhood.
>
> I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong or what I could do
> different.
>
> It may just be a case that they actually don't like me - but I find
> that the toughest thing to believe.
>
> Any thoughts??


I think that, sad to say, you probably are encountering
some discrimination because you're a father rather than a mother
and probably for lots of reasons, some of which are harder to
overcome than others. I wouldn't attribute *everything* to
this. Sometimes it's just that two people don't hit it off,
or their kids don't hit it off, or someone just doesn't have
decent social skills, or whatever. Some of these same things
happen even when it's between moms. But I do think it's more
difficult when you're a dad.
In our neighborhood playgroup we have a few dads who
have fit in just fine. My *hunch* is that it's because it's
a family-oriented group where we all know *both* parents in
each family, regardless of which one is the stay at home parent.
It didn't start out that way, but we started having some
evening/weekend activities to get to know the other spouses,
particularly once we were thinking about a babysitting co-op
where either parent could end up doing the babysitting.
For the most part, we see less of the dads, but there are a
couple of stay at home dads and they haven't had trouble
fitting in. Somehow, though, the dynamic seems different
when both parents are known than when just one parent is
known.
So while I don't know if it would succeed in your
situation or not, the one thing I can think to recommend is
to see if you can do a few things where your wife can also
get involved with these other women. Then, once they know
her as well, you become the husband-of-a-woman-we-know rather
than "just" a dad. Obviously, you shouldn't *have* to do
this sort of thing in order to be accepted, but if it helps...

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Sara]

Sonnie B. wrote:

> I've invited neighbors over for playtime with our kids, I had small
> get togethers with creative
> activities, etc. Everyone seems to have a grand time, but there's
> never any follow up from the
> moms of the neighborhood.

I'm running into the same problem, so I don't think that this is
necessarily because you're a man. I keep trying to organize things,
and other parents (only one dad so far) are enthusiastic at first --
but getting people to follow through can be difficult. I don't think
it's that I have a repellant personality...

Maybe some people are just flakes. I wonder what their kids do all day?

--
Sara, accompanied by the baby barnacle

<< I check this e-mail account infrequently >>

[blacksalt]

> "Sonnie B." > wrote in message
> om...

> >
> > It may just be a case that they actually don't like me - but I find
> > that the toughest thing to believe.

There are lots of idiots in the world. (Also, many busy people.) My
SAHD got uninvited to a singalong club because someone was too
inhibited to breast feed around him. Three other women did, and as
usual, all he saw was a baby held up in front of a mother, no booby.
Moms of the neighborhood are all tied up with other worries. We are very
lucky in that someone I knew at work had a baby at about the same time,
and since they are a lesbian couple, SAHD has a open invite to shed some
"man time" on their son. Their nanny is really nice, and loves to get
out of the house, as well, and the GM is a little lonely and also loves
my SO. (An aquaintence who has Biblical disapproval of homosexuality
asked me firmly what I thought of their "lifestyle" being different from
mine, I "innocently" commented on how they were very well to do, and
spent alot of money on furniture and clothes for baby, had baby
baptised, went to church, started with dental appointments at age 3
months, banked cord blood, etc, but that they didn't seem to mind we
were Salvation Army shoppers and had old cars, and they were so nice, I
didn't think of them as snobs...heehee.)
Even if you have to travel some, find people you have something in
common with, profession, level of education, hobby, etc. People's lives
are full, and don't have time for someone new. Something in common is a
shoe in the door.
He also mets lots of people at the Y, and swimming has afforded lots of
chat, but no outside contact. He joined out of loneliness, but baby has
become a star in the pool, brave and capable, and I really saw an
improvement in balance and strength.
Is there a cooperative nursery in your area?
HTH
blacksalt

[Stephanie and Tim]

"Sonnie B." > wrote in message
om...
> hey there. here's my situation. DD is 1 & DS is 2 1/2.
>
> we enjoy a lot of time playing both indoors and outside, going to
> cultural enriching places
> like museums, zoos, parks, kids theaters, etc.
>
> however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
> these things, I often feel
> quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
> their children away, or
> when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
> patronizing or condescending
> response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.
>
> I've tried integrating the kids with several groups, but despite their
> good nature and behavior,
> it never seems to take. I have lots of friends and I am married, so I
> can't believe it is only me
> and how I approach these activities.
>
> In fact, the other day when a woman's child began bullying my son, I
> very firmly told the child
> to stop it and explained he was frightening my little boy. The kid
> apologized but had an almost
> shocked looked upon him. The mother eventually intervened and
> basically told the kid that
> "he didn't know you were playing chase with him. Let's leave them
> alone." and she walked off
> with the kid. No apology, no conversation of what happened. nada,
>
> This has been the most difficult part of my transition as a
> stay-at-home dad. It's really difficult
> for me to find adults to socialize with during the children's activity
> times.
>
> I've invited neighbors over for playtime with our kids, I had small
> get togethers with creative
> activities, etc. Everyone seems to have a grand time, but there's
> never any follow up from the
> moms of the neighborhood.
>
> I just don't understand what I'm doing wrong or what I could do
> different.
>
> It may just be a case that they actually don't like me - but I find
> that the toughest thing to believe.
>
> Any thoughts??
>
> Thanks a bunch ~ SB


It may not have anything to do with being a Dad. I used to go to the park
and such when my child was small, and try to strike up conversations and
such. It always fell flatter than a ... Kansas. (Just kidding about the
Kansas part. Anyone here about the crazy Kansas / pancake study.)

S

[Ericka Kammerer]

Sara wrote:


> Maybe some people are just flakes. I wonder what their kids do all day?


*Some* people are just flakes?! Honestly, most days
it seems to me that *most* people are flakes! ;-) Getting
people to follow through seems an uphill struggle most of
the time. People don't respond to invitations, and if they
do, they fail to show up. People say they'll help out with
something and then don't show. I have a few friends who
are reliable (thank goodness!), but I know quite a few
people who are otherwise very good friends who just don't
follow through. If I assumed that everyone who didn't
follow through didn't like me, I'd have a complex ;-) I
don't know why it seems like so many people are so bad
at following up on things, but it sure seems commonplace
today.

That said, I do think a lot of the problem (aside
from an apparent lack of true commitment) is that many people
really are very busy, or at least busier than they have the
organizational skills to support. I know there are far more
things I *want* to do with and for the kids than I actually
have time to do, especially certain times of the year. I
just can't believe that there are some people I haven't
been to visit in months (or even nearly a year for some
who live farther away!), even though I've really wanted to
visit them. It seems like the weekends fill up *so*
quickly. It was easier when the kids were home all day
most days because we could do things during the day. Now,
at least for the boys we have to squeeze their things in
on evenings and weekends, which isn't easy even when I
try to relegate as many other things as possible to the
daytime to help make room.

I also think you run into a little issue in that
many SAHPs with the first child take a while before they
run into that "wall" where they're desperate for adult
company. Some people go stir crazy early, but others
seem to be happy staying home for much longer and thus
don't feel that impetus to get out and socialize. Then,
of course, there are the women who won't breastfeed in
public or have other issues with being out (worried about
their child's behavior or their ability to juggle everything)
and who just fine it easier and safer somehow to stay
home. It seems like some don't get out all that much
until they're further down the parenting pike, at which
point you get into the issue with being too busy ;-)

Ultimately, I think quite a few people are so
busy with their own schedules that they really don't
take their kids out a lot for playdates and such. At
least that's true of a number of people I know.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Bruce and Jeanne]

Nevermind wrote:

> However, it's important to note that I have never made a friend at a
> playground, zoo, swimming pool, etc. I have gotten to know and become
> "friendly with" some mothers who I've seen frequently in my
> neighborhood playground but never got to the point where we'd arrange
> get-togethers. I find that to do so, you need a few different things
> to be occurring simultaneously: (1) you and the parent have to "hit it
> off", (2) your kids and their kids have to hit it off as well, (3) you
> need to accidentally see each other at public places a number of
> times, so you can naturally get to know each other a bit before either
> of you takes the plunge to attempt to get closer, and (4) you both
> have to have the time and need to make a new friend. IME, this can be
> a tough combination to achieve. So, don't be too sensitive.
>

Same here. I very rarely made a friend at a playground or swimming pool
without meeting them through a mutual friend. I'm basically a shy
person and I find it hard to follow through on setting up playdates with
someone I really don't know.

That said, I have befriended SAHDs simply because if they're the ones I
see then they'll be the main parent friend. In one case, not only did
we find ourselves in the same profession, later we found out we were
working at the same place (when we both got jobs).

Jeanne

[0tterbot]

"Nevermind" > wrote in message
om...

> However, it's important to note that I have never made a friend at a
> playground, zoo, swimming pool, etc. I have gotten to know and become
> "friendly with" some mothers who I've seen frequently in my
> neighborhood playground but never got to the point where we'd arrange
> get-togethers.

i concur! i've never done that either.

just to give a little analogy for the o.p. which may or may not help - we
take our dog to two different dog parks (which basically means the humans
entertain themselves while the dogs play or do whatever). at one park, i
find it easy to chat with the other people & always enjoy going there. at
the other, i've *never* been able to have more than a rudimentary exchange,
with *anyone*. i know it isn't me, because at the first park i'm fine. at
the second park, i'm basically standing around waiting for the dog to be
finished, or just read the paper, because nobody will talk to me & i can't
find anything to say to them if they do. is it the people at park b? the
layout? the location? the times of day i am forced to go there? (it being
the one near my workplace?) WHAT IS IT??! i can't find the answer to this,
so i don't worry about it any more :-)

i put it to the o.p. that his situation is currently a lot like dog park b,
but the possibility of finding dog park a (whether it's a particular
activity, place or set of people) is certainly out there :-) i'd chat with
dads as much as mums at parks, but in fact i don't usually chat to either.
i'm either playing with the kids or desperately seeking solitude (or at
least, 10 minutes without conversation), so it's just not something i do. so
there you are. ;-)
kylie
--
www.rdj.com.au

[The Ranger]

Sonnie B. > wrote in message
om...
> we enjoy a lot of time playing both indoors and outside, going
> to cultural enriching places like museums, zoos, parks, kids
> theaters, etc.

Great! Keep those activities up (time permitting.) You're battling your
feelings of isolation in an agressive manner!

> however, being that I am usually the only man that participates
> in these things, I often feel quite left out. Most moms don't like
> to interact so they sort of veer their children away, or when I
> do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
> patronizing or condescending response - as though I'm not part
> of the "club" or something.

Welcome to the Clucking Hens and their Private Social Club. There are ways
around this and you've been given some good advice on moving forward.
Another source you might try (I haven't so I can't vouch for its benefits)
is:
<
http://www.onlineplaygroup.com/

> I've tried integrating the kids with several groups, but despite
> their good nature and behavior, it never seems to take. I have
> lots of friends and I am married, so I can't believe it is only
> me and how I approach these activities.

It's really not you but you are different and that difference is terrifying.
With the number of museums, parks, etc. available, I'm guessing you live in
a very densely populated city. There are going to be organization for dads
specifically, or dads and moms, that will have a more open, welcoming feel
to them. The people that participate in these type of groups tend to be a
little more liberal in their experiences. Pull up Citysearch or Google them.

> In fact, the other day when a woman's child began bullying
> my son, I very firmly told the child to stop it and explained
> he was frightening my little boy. The kid apologized but had
> an almost shocked looked upon him. The mother eventually
> intervened and basically told the kid that "he didn't know
> you were playing chase with him. Let's leave them alone."
> and she walked off with the kid. No apology, no conversation
> of what happened. nada,

Jerks and knotheads are everywhere; sluff it off and know that you were
right.

> This has been the most difficult part of my transition as
> a stay-at-home dad. It's really difficult for me to find adults
> to socialize with during the children's activity times.
[snip of remaining text]

You've taken the first steps to combating the isolation you're feeling by
getting out! It doesn't sound like you have any family that's close enough
to assist even in minor ways (taking the kids while you get some "me" time.)
Move beyond the neighborhood, hit the Y (or a gym), and search out
like-minded groups where you can hang.

The most difficult moment for me was the first three months. The isolation
was almost a killer but I managed to beat it and that's when other options
opened up.

Good luck.

The Ranger
SAHD since 1998

[Sue]

I personally have never made a friend at the park or any of the other
mentioned places either. I was pretty shy when my first daughter was born,
so for me to strike up a conversation with someone would probably never
happen. Now though, after three children, I will strike up a conversation
with anyone, but what I find is that they are not interested in talking.

Personally, I never made any real friends until my girls started school. The
kids sought out their friends and once the mom

--
Sue
mom to three girls
Nevermind > wrote in message
om...
> (Sonnie B.) wrote in message
>...
> >
> > however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
> > these things, I often feel
> > quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
> > their children away, or
> > when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
> > patronizing or condescending
> > response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.
>
> I am sort of embarrassed to admit this, but I am definitely less
> likely to strike up a conversation with a man who has his kids at the
> playground than with a woman who does. It isn't that he's not part of
> "the club," because I'm not part of it either. It's just that he's a
> man, I'm a woman, and I don't want there to be anything misunderstood.
> However, I am always friendly to *anyone* with kids there (e.g.,
> commenting on the kids or asking ages, etc.), and I am open to having
> real conversations with anyone. Interestingly, perhaps, thinking back
> over the past 8 years of trips to my local playground, when I have had
> great, in-depth conversations with men who had kids there, it's often
> been with *granddads*! So, you may be encountering prejudice, or you
> may be encountering shyness, or a bit of both.
>
> However, it's important to note that I have never made a friend at a
> playground, zoo, swimming pool, etc. I have gotten to know and become
> "friendly with" some mothers who I've seen frequently in my
> neighborhood playground but never got to the point where we'd arrange
> get-togethers. I find that to do so, you need a few different things
> to be occurring simultaneously: (1) you and the parent have to "hit it
> off", (2) your kids and their kids have to hit it off as well, (3) you
> need to accidentally see each other at public places a number of
> times, so you can naturally get to know each other a bit before either
> of you takes the plunge to attempt to get closer, and (4) you both
> have to have the time and need to make a new friend. IME, this can be
> a tough combination to achieve. So, don't be too sensitive.
>
> I second the rec. to attend kid- or parent-oriented get-togethers,
> e.g., at the library or at "classes". That is a safe way to meet
> people. Also, your best bets for meeting people in public places is
> very local stuff, e.g., the neighborhood playground, not, say, the
> city zoo.

[Sue]

Sorry, a computer blip happened.

Anyway, when my kids started making friends, is when I was able to get to
know the other moms as well. I did go to organized playgroups when my kids
were small and made a few friends that way. Good luck to the OP.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

Nevermind > wrote in message
om...
> (Sonnie B.) wrote in message
>...
> >
> > however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
> > these things, I often feel
> > quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
> > their children away, or
> > when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
> > patronizing or condescending
> > response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.
>
> I am sort of embarrassed to admit this, but I am definitely less
> likely to strike up a conversation with a man who has his kids at the
> playground than with a woman who does. It isn't that he's not part of
> "the club," because I'm not part of it either. It's just that he's a
> man, I'm a woman, and I don't want there to be anything misunderstood.
> However, I am always friendly to *anyone* with kids there (e.g.,
> commenting on the kids or asking ages, etc.), and I am open to having
> real conversations with anyone. Interestingly, perhaps, thinking back
> over the past 8 years of trips to my local playground, when I have had
> great, in-depth conversations with men who had kids there, it's often
> been with *granddads*! So, you may be encountering prejudice, or you
> may be encountering shyness, or a bit of both.
>
> However, it's important to note that I have never made a friend at a
> playground, zoo, swimming pool, etc. I have gotten to know and become
> "friendly with" some mothers who I've seen frequently in my
> neighborhood playground but never got to the point where we'd arrange
> get-togethers. I find that to do so, you need a few different things
> to be occurring simultaneously: (1) you and the parent have to "hit it
> off", (2) your kids and their kids have to hit it off as well, (3) you
> need to accidentally see each other at public places a number of
> times, so you can naturally get to know each other a bit before either
> of you takes the plunge to attempt to get closer, and (4) you both
> have to have the time and need to make a new friend. IME, this can be
> a tough combination to achieve. So, don't be too sensitive.
>
> I second the rec. to attend kid- or parent-oriented get-togethers,
> e.g., at the library or at "classes". That is a safe way to meet
> people. Also, your best bets for meeting people in public places is
> very local stuff, e.g., the neighborhood playground, not, say, the
> city zoo.

[Sonnie B.]

<snip>

> I'm not sure of the size of your town but it sounds fairly large (if you are
> going to museums, zoos, parks, kids theaters) you might try to start
> connecting with other SAHDs. Try looking at this website for ideas to start
> playgroups...
>
> http://slowlane.com/connecting/starting_a_playgroup.html
>
> or you might connect with other SAHDs and ask their advice at:
>
> http://www.dadstayshome.com/
>
> Hope this helps,
> Nadene

Thanks for the links, Nadene! I've only browsed so far, but can't wait to really
look into them more thoroughly. And just to note, my town is a very typical
American suburb. Many of the surrounding towns and cities have the parks,
zoos, etc. that I mentioned and we try to venture as far out from the television
as possible, especially in the summertime.

Thanks again! ~ SB

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Sonnie B. > wrote:

*however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
*these things, I often feel
*quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
*their children away, or
*when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
*patronizing or condescending
*response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.

Weird. I go out of my way to interact with guys out with their kids. I've
always gotten along better with men than with women as a general rule and
I guess that's probably why. Still, the guys who bring their kids to our
local library and bookstore storytimes and to the Gymboree classes I go to
don't seem to get this kind of attitude from the other moms, at least not
so as I would notice. It's too bad you're having this problem.

*I've tried integrating the kids with several groups, but despite their
*good nature and behavior,
*it never seems to take. I have lots of friends and I am married, so I
*can't believe it is only me
*and how I approach these activities.

Maybe it's just a particular regional thing? Are you by chance in the
rural American South??

*In fact, the other day when a woman's child began bullying my son, I
*very firmly told the child
*to stop it and explained he was frightening my little boy. The kid
*apologized but had an almost
*shocked looked upon him. The mother eventually intervened and
*basically told the kid that
*"he didn't know you were playing chase with him. Let's leave them
*alone." and she walked off
*with the kid. No apology, no conversation of what happened. nada,

Well, I don't think I would try to discipline someone else's child like
that. In similar situations, I have gotten between the aggressor and my
child, and spoken to MY child - "Jacob, are you scared? It's ok. Mommy's
here." If my son said "he scareded me, mommy, that boy scareded me" or
"that boy try to push me down mommy" or "that boy bein' mean, mommy" or
something like that, I would say "well, his mommy is probably going to be
very upset with him when she finds out about it, isn't she? because we
know that nice little boys don't [push/be mean/scare other little boys] so
she will have to give him a time out or something."

But that's just me, I don't know, maybe other people DO go around
disciplining other people's kids without consequence. Hasn't happened to
me yet. Of course, my son is perfect. (HA HA HA! THAT WAS A JOKE!!) But
seriously, it hasn't. The one time my son was involved in a playground
fracas that I didn't witness, the other mom got my attention as she
approached, holding her son's hand and my son's hand, saying "let's find
this little boy's mommy and tell her what we think happened," and then she
told me that her son said that my son took his shovel and wouldn't give it
back. Since my son was, in fact, holding the shovel, it was pretty
obviously true or close to it :). I just said "Jacob, give the shovel
back, it isn't yours," took the shovel from him when he wouldn't let go,
and gave it to the kid, and took my crying son under a tree from a small
time out.

*I've invited neighbors over for playtime with our kids, I had small
*get togethers with creative
*activities, etc. Everyone seems to have a grand time, but there's
*never any follow up from the
*moms of the neighborhood.

Well, I've had neighbors over for playdates too, and I still don't usually
get invited to the ones at their houses either. We're the newbies in the
neighborhood (we've been here 3 years; they've all been here 6 years) and
I THINK it's just that they kind of forget about us or expect we're doing
stuff with people from the old 'hood or whatever. They will include us if
we "remind" them :)

*It may just be a case that they actually don't like me - but I find
*that the toughest thing to believe.

Well, no one wants to believe that. I certainly don't!

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Banty]

In article >, Hillary Israeli says...
>
>In >,
>Sonnie B. > wrote:
>
>*however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
>*these things, I often feel
>*quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
>*their children away, or
>*when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
>*patronizing or condescending
>*response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.
>
>Weird. I go out of my way to interact with guys out with their kids. I've
>always gotten along better with men than with women as a general rule and
>I guess that's probably why.

I'm the same way - I'll talk to a man sooner than a woman. I don't have the
worry-about-what-hubby-would-think factor, though. I figured that was part of
it in my case. I suppose having a secure hubby would have the same effect :-)

>Still, the guys who bring their kids to our
>local library and bookstore storytimes and to the Gymboree classes I go to
>don't seem to get this kind of attitude from the other moms, at least not
>so as I would notice. It's too bad you're having this problem.

Perhaps it's because you're around to have broken the ice.

Banty

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Banty > wrote:

> In article >, Hillary Israeli says...
> >
> >In >,
> >Sonnie B. > wrote:
> >
> >*however, being that I am usually the only man that participates in
> >*these things, I often feel
> >*quite left out. Most moms don't like to interact so they sort of veer
> >*their children away, or
> >*when I do try to strike up conversation I usually get an almost
> >*patronizing or condescending
> >*response - as though I'm not part of the "club" or something.
> >
> >Weird. I go out of my way to interact with guys out with their kids. I've
> >always gotten along better with men than with women as a general rule and
> >I guess that's probably why.
>
> I'm the same way - I'll talk to a man sooner than a woman. I don't have the
> worry-about-what-hubby-would-think factor, though. I figured that was part
> of
> it in my case. I suppose having a secure hubby would have the same effect
> :-)
>

It does. We used to have a neighbor who was a SAH Dad; I don't think
it ever occurred to DH to be concerned about the time we (the SAH Dad
and I) spent together, or coming home to find us in the back yard (we
lived in a complex) or in each other's houses together with our kids.
(Nor, might I add, had he anything to be concerned about.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Sonnie B. > wrote:
<snip>
>Maybe it's just a particular regional thing? Are you by chance in the
>rural American South??
>
Or maybe New England.

>*In fact, the other day when a woman's child began bullying my son, I
>*very firmly told the child
>*to stop it and explained he was frightening my little boy. The kid
>*apologized but had an almost
>*shocked looked upon him. The mother eventually intervened and
>*basically told the kid that
>*"he didn't know you were playing chase with him. Let's leave them
>*alone." and she walked off
>*with the kid. No apology, no conversation of what happened. nada,
>
>Well, I don't think I would try to discipline someone else's child like
>that. In similar situations, I have gotten between the aggressor and my

Since I have been a coach and teacher, and my children are older now,
I don't know for sure, but NOW, I would intervene in basically the
same way - I wouldn't have called it discipline. It's more kind of
the "It takes a village..." thing. Maybe this is because I've had the
experience of being responsible for large groups of other peoples
children, being a teacher etc.

>child, and spoken to MY child - "Jacob, are you scared? It's ok. Mommy's
>here." If my son said "he scareded me, mommy, that boy scareded me" or
>"that boy try to push me down mommy" or "that boy bein' mean, mommy" or
>something like that, I would say "well, his mommy is probably going to be
>very upset with him when she finds out about it, isn't she? because we
>know that nice little boys don't [push/be mean/scare other little boys] so
>she will have to give him a time out or something."

I would find this **extremely** irritating - more than just having my
child spoken to by another adult. It would make me want to hit the
other adult as a reaction to the passive aggressive behavior which
really pushes my hot button. It wouldn't matter if my child was at
fault or not. I think this kind of thing is much more judgmental of
the other mom's parenting than just a direct interaction (polite) with
the other child would be.

>
>But that's just me, I don't know, maybe other people DO go around
>disciplining other people's kids without consequence. Hasn't happened to
>me yet. Of course, my son is perfect. (HA HA HA! THAT WAS A JOKE!!) But
>seriously, it hasn't. The one time my son was involved in a playground
>fracas that I didn't witness, the other mom got my attention as she
>approached, holding her son's hand and my son's hand, saying "let's find
>this little boy's mommy and tell her what we think happened," and then she
>told me that her son said that my son took his shovel and wouldn't give it
>back. Since my son was, in fact, holding the shovel, it was pretty
>obviously true or close to it :). I just said "Jacob, give the shovel
>back, it isn't yours," took the shovel from him when he wouldn't let go,
>and gave it to the kid, and took my crying son under a tree from a small
>time out.
>
>*I've invited neighbors over for playtime with our kids, I had small
>*get togethers with creative
>*activities, etc. Everyone seems to have a grand time, but there's
>*never any follow up from the
>*moms of the neighborhood.
>
>Well, I've had neighbors over for playdates too, and I still don't usually
>get invited to the ones at their houses either. We're the newbies in the
>neighborhood (we've been here 3 years; they've all been here 6 years) and
>I THINK it's just that they kind of forget about us or expect we're doing
>stuff with people from the old 'hood or whatever. They will include us if
>we "remind" them :)

Some people are takers. They are perfectly willing for you to go to
the trouble of setting up dates, entertaining their children et al but
are too selfish to want to go to the trouble themselves. My dd#2 had
a lady like that - if dd and her friend were watching their children
in the front yard, she'd send her child out to play with them, but she
never took a turn or talked to the other mothers come to that. So
when they got tired of that, they'd go into the back yard to play.

Or it may be that they are ashamed of their home and fear to let
anyone else in it.

>
>*It may just be a case that they actually don't like me - but I find
>*that the toughest thing to believe.
>
>Well, no one wants to believe that. I certainly don't!

grandma Rosalie

[Joni Rathbun]

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003, P. Tierney wrote:

>
> "Joni Rathbun" > wrote:
> > >
> > > >child, and spoken to MY child - "Jacob, are you scared? It's ok.
> Mommy's
> > > >here." If my son said "he scareded me, mommy, that boy scareded me" or
> > > >"that boy try to push me down mommy" or "that boy bein' mean, mommy" or
> > > >something like that, I would say "well, his mommy is probably going to
> be
> > > >very upset with him when she finds out about it, isn't she? because we
> > > >know that nice little boys don't [push/be mean/scare other little boys]
> so
> > > >she will have to give him a time out or something."
> > >
> > > I would find this **extremely** irritating - more than just having my
> > > child spoken to by another adult. It would make me want to hit the
> > > other adult as a reaction to the passive aggressive behavior which
> > > really pushes my hot button. It wouldn't matter if my child was at
> > > fault or not. I think this kind of thing is much more judgmental of
> > > the other mom's parenting than just a direct interaction (polite) with
> > > the other child would be.
> >
> >
> > OH, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up just thinking
> > about it! If another mother said those things in my presense I'd
> > tell her to go to hell. Then I'd tell my son that good little
> > mothers aren't so catty and perhaps her mother should place
> > her in time out.
>
> Hmm, not sure if I'd do that. ;-)

I included it as a mirror example.

But, I'd also greatly prefer to be
> told of the problem by the adult so that I could deal with my child's
> misbehaviour in my own way. When the parent is present, the parent
> should always be deferred to, imo.
>
>

[dragonlady]

In article <_ya_a.89030$cF.26419@rwcrnsc53>,
"P. Tierney" > wrote:

> "Joni Rathbun" > wrote:
> > >
> > > >child, and spoken to MY child - "Jacob, are you scared? It's ok.
> Mommy's
> > > >here." If my son said "he scareded me, mommy, that boy scareded me" or
> > > >"that boy try to push me down mommy" or "that boy bein' mean, mommy" or
> > > >something like that, I would say "well, his mommy is probably going to
> be
> > > >very upset with him when she finds out about it, isn't she? because we
> > > >know that nice little boys don't [push/be mean/scare other little boys]
> so
> > > >she will have to give him a time out or something."
> > >
> > > I would find this **extremely** irritating - more than just having my
> > > child spoken to by another adult. It would make me want to hit the
> > > other adult as a reaction to the passive aggressive behavior which
> > > really pushes my hot button. It wouldn't matter if my child was at
> > > fault or not. I think this kind of thing is much more judgmental of
> > > the other mom's parenting than just a direct interaction (polite) with
> > > the other child would be.
> >
> >
> > OH, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up just thinking
> > about it! If another mother said those things in my presense I'd
> > tell her to go to hell. Then I'd tell my son that good little
> > mothers aren't so catty and perhaps her mother should place
> > her in time out.
>
> Hmm, not sure if I'd do that. ;-) But, I'd also greatly prefer to be
> told of the problem by the adult so that I could deal with my child's
> misbehaviour in my own way. When the parent is present, the parent
> should always be deferred to, imo.
>
>
>
> P. Tierney
>
>

But if the other parent isn't doing anything, are they really "present"?

I have a tendency to be very direct, and to deal directly with children.
I have only had an adult caretaker upset once, and they were REALLY out
of line -- and, what's more, I told them that. (It was a real honest to
goodness safety issue: you simply cannot ride a bigwheel down a hill
into a parking lot behind a row of cars when someone -- in this case, me
-- is trying to back up their car!)

If a parent is clearly there, and clearly attending to what is going on,
I'll defer to them. However, if I'm at a playground, and a child is
misbehaving in a way that is obvious (hurting another child, for
example, or about to do something clearly beyond reason for danger) I'll
intervene -- even if the victim isn't my own child. My intervention
will be calm and respectful, but also clear and directly with the child.

I would expect no less of the other adults present when MY kids
misbehaved -- and, with three kids, I couldn't always keep close tabs on
each one of them, so welcomed all the help I could get.

But I, too, would find the indirect approach described above irritating
in the extreme. I'd much rather have another adult tell my child,
"Please don't do that; it is scaring my child." than have them talk
"about" my child to their child in a way designed to be overheard; it
just sounds rude.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[P. Tierney]

"dragonlady" > wrote:
> >
> > Hmm, not sure if I'd do that. ;-) But, I'd also greatly prefer to
be
> > told of the problem by the adult so that I could deal with my child's
> > misbehaviour in my own way. When the parent is present, the parent
> > should always be deferred to, imo.
>
> But if the other parent isn't doing anything, are they really "present"?

Of course they are present. Why they are not doing anything is
another question, one with many possible answers. The first step to
that is to make the parent aware of the problem.

> I have a tendency to be very direct, and to deal directly with children.
> I have only had an adult caretaker upset once, and they were REALLY out
> of line -- and, what's more, I told them that. (It was a real honest to
> goodness safety issue: you simply cannot ride a bigwheel down a hill
> into a parking lot behind a row of cars when someone -- in this case, me
> -- is trying to back up their car!)

A parent yelled at my child over an "honest to goodness safety issue" a
few months back. She was on the sidewalk, several houses down, and turned
towards the street. She wasn't going into the (trafficless) street, as I've
taught her not to and she's learned the phrase ("off-limits") for places
that she cannot go. But, the other parent thought otherwise.

So, part of it is perception. She perceived a safety threat, and I
didn't.
And I was right. And in the process, she communicated with my child
in a way that I never do, which I did not appreciate.

> If a parent is clearly there, and clearly attending to what is going on,
> I'll defer to them. However, if I'm at a playground, and a child is
> misbehaving in a way that is obvious (hurting another child, for
> example, or about to do something clearly beyond reason for danger) I'll
> intervene -- even if the victim isn't my own child. My intervention
> will be calm and respectful, but also clear and directly with the child.
>
> I would expect no less of the other adults present when MY kids
> misbehaved -- and, with three kids, I couldn't always keep close tabs on
> each one of them, so welcomed all the help I could get.

Again, perception. To me, "help" (when watching that many kids)
arrives in the form of pointing out a problem. Then, I can solve it.
That's the only help that I need and want.

> But I, too, would find the indirect approach described above irritating
> in the extreme. I'd much rather have another adult tell my child,
> "Please don't do that; it is scaring my child." than have them talk
> "about" my child to their child in a way designed to be overheard; it
> just sounds rude.

People discipline their kids differently. Some are not ways that I
prefer, and as a parent, I want the first crack at it. Bypassing the
chance to inform me of a problem of my child, instead preferring
to do the job yourself, is what I consider rude.

Now, your words seem to assume that the parent is aware of the
problem, and you might be right. Still, I'd want to take that small
first step before taking any action with someone else's kid.



P.
Tierney

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
dragonlady > wrote:
<snip lots of examples>

>
>My discomfort is with the indirect approach. If someone wants to say
>something to me or to my child about their behavior, I want it direct,
>NOT by making a speech to THEIR child ABOUT my child or my parenting.
>That's the sort of thing that drives me batty.
>
>meh

YES!!! That's it - that's what the problem is. If I am there (however
you define that), talk to ME - don't talk to your child ABOUT me.
That's just rude however you slice it.

I am perfectly OK with you talking to my child, as long as you aren't
abusive beyond what is called for - like screaming obscenities and
calling the child names. If you'd prefer to talk to me, that's OK
too, but ditto the screaming obscenities. If you don't want me to
speak directly to your child, then you can say so to ME. And then I
can explain why I said something, and we can agree, or agree to
disagree or whatever.

But not only is talking to your child about another person and saying
how bad a mother the other person is VERY rude, but it also sends the
wrong message to your child. It gives them the idea that such
behavior is proper, and/or that they have the absolute right to have
everyone else cater to their feelings about whatever is at issue.
That's not the way to get a child to be empathetic to the feelings of
others.

grandma Rosalie

[P. Tierney]

"dragonlady" > wrote:
> >
> > A parent yelled at my child over an "honest to goodness safety
issue" a
> > few months back. She was on the sidewalk, several houses down, and
turned
> > towards the street. She wasn't going into the (trafficless) street, as
I've
> > taught her not to and she's learned the phrase ("off-limits") for places
> > that she cannot go. But, the other parent thought otherwise.
>
> In this case, there was no question about safety or intent.

I see your point in the example, but I was dealing with the general
notions mentioned in the thread. I didn't read the OP, don't remember
when it came up.

> I have stepped in front of toddlers that I thought were headed for the
> street -- but I wouldn't yell at them. I might say, "My goodness, you
> frightened me! I thought you were going out into the street." I would
> NOT look around for a parent and have a careful conversation first: I'd
> make sure the child wasn't hit by a car first.

In my example, this wasn't an issue. Any "danger" was overstated,
which is something that I seem to come across quite often as a parent.
Honestly, my kid probably does a dozen things per day that another
parent might consider a "danger" and worth commenting on. But I'm
just not interested in the "help".

Now, your above quote to the child is conversational, which is fine.
For me, my problem comes in the "do's" and "dont's" that I see other
parents commonly dishing out to children at the playground (or elsewhere)
that they don't know, or perhaps do know but not well enough to know
what the parent does and does not allow. Unless my child is on someone
else's property or handing someone else's stuff, I'd like to be in charge
of the do's/dont's. (It's a bit controlling, I know, but my child things in
a
way that I consider good, and keeping the messages consistent has been
one reason for that, I think.)

> > Now, your words seem to assume that the parent is aware of the
> > problem, and you might be right. Still, I'd want to take that small
> > first step before taking any action with someone else's kid.
> >
> >
> I suspect some of the difference here might come from the ages and
> number of kids you have parented: right now, you have one toddler
> (preschooler? -- I've lost track!) , so that is what you are thinking
> about.

Mine is 19 months, but I've watched several of that age at once.
I still feel pretty much the same way in those situations.

> And I've had other people talk to my kids, including stopping them from
> doing things that I allowed.

Well, this is my #1 "batty" issue, probably, and is why I chimed in.
I tend to allow my kid to do a lot more things and I get that "helpful
parenting" thing too often for my tastes. It probably doesn't matter
in the long term, but in the short term, my child sometimes gets confused
by the mixed messages. It makes my job a little more difficult.

> My discomfort is with the indirect approach. If someone wants to say
> something to me or to my child about their behavior, I want it direct,
> NOT by making a speech to THEIR child ABOUT my child or my parenting.
> That's the sort of thing that drives me batty.

I can see that, though I've never experienced such a thing.


P. Tierney

[Joni Rathbun]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003, P. Tierney wrote:

> "dragonlady" > wrote:
> > >
> > > A parent yelled at my child over an "honest to goodness safety
> issue" a
> > > few months back. She was on the sidewalk, several houses down, and
> turned
> > > towards the street. She wasn't going into the (trafficless) street, as
> I've
> > > taught her not to and she's learned the phrase ("off-limits") for places
> > > that she cannot go. But, the other parent thought otherwise.
> >
> > In this case, there was no question about safety or intent.
>
> I see your point in the example, but I was dealing with the general
> notions mentioned in the thread. I didn't read the OP, don't remember
> when it came up.
>
> > I have stepped in front of toddlers that I thought were headed for the
> > street -- but I wouldn't yell at them. I might say, "My goodness, you
> > frightened me! I thought you were going out into the street." I would
> > NOT look around for a parent and have a careful conversation first: I'd
> > make sure the child wasn't hit by a car first.
>
> In my example, this wasn't an issue. Any "danger" was overstated,
> which is something that I seem to come across quite often as a parent.
> Honestly, my kid probably does a dozen things per day that another
> parent might consider a "danger" and worth commenting on. But I'm
> just not interested in the "help".


If she's a toddler, I think seeing a toddler on the sidewalk several
houses down is cause for concern. While you may allow your child to do
that, I don't think most do and I would likely have done something. I
wouldn't have yelled or been mean or rude. I'd probably have gotten the
child's attention, asked them where they lived and walked them home.
There'd be no way for me to know that your child never does anything
she was taught not to do because 99% of the children in the world do,
at one time or another, do things they were taught not to do!

[Sue]

P. Tierney > wrote in message
> A parent yelled at my child over an "honest to goodness safety issue"
a
> few months back. She was on the sidewalk, several houses down, and turned
> towards the street. She wasn't going into the (trafficless) street, as
I've
> taught her not to and she's learned the phrase ("off-limits") for places
> that she cannot go. But, the other parent thought otherwise.

Hmm, that sounds like too much confidence in your child that might turn into
a horrible accident one day. Kids have a funny way of showing parents that
they are not always right.

> People discipline their kids differently. Some are not ways that I
> prefer, and as a parent, I want the first crack at it. Bypassing the
> chance to inform me of a problem of my child, instead preferring
> to do the job yourself, is what I consider rude.

I would rather a person said something to my child if there is a safety
issue first before a horrible accident could occur. If they are just being
mean or whatever, I still don't think it is a big deal for another person
says something to them. I can't watch all three kids all the time, as much
as I try so I believe in the "it takes a village" concept. Sometimes it
makes the kids listen a bit more if they know they are bothering someone
else and they make them aware of it.

--
Sue
mom to three girls

[P. Tierney]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> P. Tierney > wrote in message
> > A parent yelled at my child over an "honest to goodness safety
issue"
> a
> > few months back. She was on the sidewalk, several houses down, and
turned
> > towards the street. She wasn't going into the (trafficless) street, as
> I've
> > taught her not to and she's learned the phrase ("off-limits") for places
> > that she cannot go. But, the other parent thought otherwise.
>
> Hmm, that sounds like too much confidence in your child that might turn
into
> a horrible accident one day.

I'm not overconfident in my child, but I know her limitations
better than a stranger. I'm with her 20-23 hours a day, all but
her nap and perhaps an hour here and there during the day.

And being more protective on the surface doesn't mean that
the child is safer. Some kids in the area, from different parents,
have a lot more physical restrictions, but always seem to have
more bumps and bruises then my child. Go figure.


P.
Tierney

[P. Tierney]

"Joni Rathbun" > wrote:
> >
> > In my example, this wasn't an issue. Any "danger" was overstated,
> > which is something that I seem to come across quite often as a parent.
> > Honestly, my kid probably does a dozen things per day that another
> > parent might consider a "danger" and worth commenting on. But I'm
> > just not interested in the "help".
>
> If she's a toddler, I think seeing a toddler on the sidewalk several
> houses down is cause for concern. While you may allow your child to do
> that, I don't think most do and I would likely have done something. I
> wouldn't have yelled or been mean or rude.

To be fair, perhaps she yelled because she needed it to be heard.

> I'd probably have gotten the
> child's attention, asked them where they lived and walked them home.

In that case, that wasn't necessary. Since I was standing next to
the woman and talking to her at the time, she simply could've said
something to me if she thought that something was wrong. And
there wasn't.

> There'd be no way for me to know that your child never does anything
> she was taught not to do because 99% of the children in the world do,
> at one time or another, do things they were taught not to do!

I didn't say that she never did any such things. But as the parent,
I have a grip on things, and know how to get the message across,
and what that message should be. I'd like to always get first crack at
taking care of that message when I'm around (as is usually the case).



P. Tierney

[Sue]

P. Tierney > wrote in message
> I'm not overconfident in my child, but I know her limitations
> better than a stranger. I'm with her 20-23 hours a day, all but
> her nap and perhaps an hour here and there during the day.
>

That doesn't mean that she isn't going to test her limits with you though.
She is still young enough that you have not gone through her testing limits
and tantrums. I'm with my kids all the time too and accidents happen in a
blink of an eye.

> And being more protective on the surface doesn't mean that
> the child is safer. Some kids in the area, from different parents,
> have a lot more physical restrictions, but always seem to have
> more bumps and bruises then my child. Go figure.

I'm not saying being overprotective. Things happen and you won't always be
there. Just because your child doesn't have many bruises yet doesn't mean a
thing. She will, she is still pretty young.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Joni Rathbun > wrote:

*> >child, and spoken to MY child - "Jacob, are you scared? It's ok. Mommy's
*> >here." If my son said "he scareded me, mommy, that boy scareded me" or
*> >"that boy try to push me down mommy" or "that boy bein' mean, mommy" or
*> >something like that, I would say "well, his mommy is probably going to be
*> >very upset with him when she finds out about it, isn't she? because we
*> >know that nice little boys don't [push/be mean/scare other little boys] so
*> >she will have to give him a time out or something."
*>
*> I would find this **extremely** irritating - more than just having my
*> child spoken to by another adult. It would make me want to hit the
*> other adult as a reaction to the passive aggressive behavior which
*> really pushes my hot button. It wouldn't matter if my child was at
*> fault or not. I think this kind of thing is much more judgmental of
*> the other mom's parenting than just a direct interaction (polite) with
*> the other child would be.
*
*
*OH, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up just thinking
*about it! If another mother said those things in my presense I'd
*tell her to go to hell. Then I'd tell my son that good little
*mothers aren't so catty and perhaps her mother should place
*her in time out. That's a form of bullying all its own. It's

Heh.

Well, it hasn't caused any problems for me (the two times that come to
mind, both involving shoving incidents at the Barnes and Noble train
table, the other moms have said "thank you" to me as they collected their
errant offspring and told them something along the lines of "pushing is
not nice, did you hear what that little boy's mommy just said?"

perhaps it is regional, or perhaps I'm not describing the situation well,
I don't know.

*If my kid is out of line and for some reason I haven't tuned
*in on it, say something direct. If you don't have the skills
*to politely tell my kid he's frightening your kid, tap me on
*the shoulder and tell me. But don't play little games.

I'm not playing little games! I'm speaking to my son and telling him the
absolute truth of the situation. In my experience, the other mother IS
going to be upset with the kid for behaving badly, and IS going to give
him some kind of negative consequence. It's not like I'm making
accusations here, I'm just telling my son what is likely to happen to a
little boy who behaves badly. I'm not sure why you guys are finding it
upsetting.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
dragonlady > wrote:

*in the extreme. I'd much rather have another adult tell my child,
*"Please don't do that; it is scaring my child." than have them talk
*"about" my child to their child in a way designed to be overheard; it

I never said anything about designing to be overheard. You all are reading
WAY too much into this. I said I would speak to MY OWN CHILD rather than
speak to someone else's, because I think it is potentially upsetting to a
parent to have someone else discipline their kid (especially if that
parent is supposed to be there doing it him/her self!). The fact that on
two specific occasions I was in fact overheard (and thanked) is not the
point. The point is my way of handling my own child's distress - and that
is to explain the situation as I see it.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:


> *If my kid is out of line and for some reason I haven't tuned
> *in on it, say something direct. If you don't have the skills
> *to politely tell my kid he's frightening your kid, tap me on
> *the shoulder and tell me. But don't play little games.
>
> I'm not playing little games! I'm speaking to my son and telling him the
> absolute truth of the situation. In my experience, the other mother IS
> going to be upset with the kid for behaving badly, and IS going to give
> him some kind of negative consequence. It's not like I'm making
> accusations here, I'm just telling my son what is likely to happen to a
> little boy who behaves badly. I'm not sure why you guys are finding it
> upsetting.

It sounds like you are saying something to your son, but designed to be
heard by someone else. That is a form of indirect communication that
annoys me -- it is too close to a passive agressive approach to life,
and passive agressive people tend to really get under my skin.

If you say TO MY CHILD "What you are doing is upsetting my son," or "It
isn't very nice to hit other people," I won't be upset. If you say TO
ME, "Your child seems to be grabbing other people's things," I won't be
upset.

If you say to your child, "Oh, that must have been upsetting," I won't
be upset.

However, if you say TO YOUR CHILD but in a way designed to be overheard
BY ME OR MY CHILD, "That child isn't being very nice; I'll bet his
mommy will punish him for that," it will probably annoy the heck out of
me.

It isn't what you are saying; it is that -- at least based on your
description -- it seems you are not saying it directly to the person you
most want to hear it.

If you want ME to hear something, tell me. If you want my child to hear
something, tell my child. I would never be upset at another adult
talking to my child, provided they are respectful and all that other
important stuff. But please don't make loud comments aimed at me or my
child without addressing us directly.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> P. Tierney wrote:
>
>
> > People discipline their kids differently. Some are not ways that I
> > prefer, and as a parent, I want the first crack at it. Bypassing the
> > chance to inform me of a problem of my child, instead preferring
> > to do the job yourself, is what I consider rude.
>
>
> I don't think anyone else should *discipline* my
> child, but I think *anyone* (child or adult) has the
> right to tell my child (or myself) to stop doing something
> that is hurting or annoying them. I don't see anything
> rude in a parent teling my child to stop hitting (or
> whatever) their child, whether or not I'm there. I would
> just expect that the person go no further than that.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka
>

Absolutely -- what's more, I think one of the problems with today's
society is our UNwillingness to address each other.

Personal soapbox: I think any adult ought to feel comfortable telling a
two year old to stop hitting, or a six year old not to pour out a soda
bottle onto the floor, or a ten year old not to abandon their bike where
it blocks the sidewalk (gets the best response when I'm using my cane),
or a group of teens that they're blocking the door (all things I've done
in the not too distant past.) Most of the time, the response I get is
positive -- even when I point out to an adult that he or she must not
have noticed the "no-smoking" sign. How much more pleasant might public
life be if people felt comfortable talking to each other, and knew how
to do it in a way that was pleasant and respectful?

Intrestingly, the one thing that gets the most suggestions that I
perform an anotomically improbably act is pointing out to people that
they seem to have inadvertantly parked in a handicapped-only spot.
(Yes, I look carefully to make sure they have neither a license plate
nor a placard first.) Just often enough I get thanked by someone who
didn't notice the sign and then moves their car (and once by someone who
forgot to put their placard in the front) to make it worth the
occassional obscenity . . .

Soapbox off.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[P. Tierney]

"Joni Rathbun" > wrote:
> >
> > I didn't say that she never did any such things. But as the parent,
> > I have a grip on things, and know how to get the message across,
> > and what that message should be. I'd like to always get first crack at
> > taking care of that message when I'm around (as is usually the case).
> >
> You didn't say in your story you were right there observing.

Sorry that it wasn't clear. But, that's how I knew what was
going on.

> I wouldn't say anything to a child
> who's parent was right there paying attention unless they were bullying my
> kid and then i'd be more likely to politely tell the parent what's
> happening isn't working.

Everything that *I* have discussed on this thread related to a
child with a parent who is there. The "paying attention" part isn't
always immediately visible to the eye, which is why I'd make it
visible before acting.

And if needed, I would. Two boys (maybe 10) started cussing
at each other on the playground, leading to a minor fight. I looked
around first for a parent and started to step in to break things up.
But, the parent noticed from the other play structure and came in
and beat me to it.


P.
Tierney

[P. Tierney]

"Sue" > wrote:
>
> > And being more protective on the surface doesn't mean that
> > the child is safer. Some kids in the area, from different parents,
> > have a lot more physical restrictions, but always seem to have
> > more bumps and bruises then my child. Go figure.
>
> I'm not saying being overprotective. Things happen and you won't always be
> there.

In thee post that you responded to, I was there. That may not have
been clear to you, as it wasn't to others as well. My error.

> Just because your child doesn't have many bruises yet doesn't mean a
> thing. She will, she is still pretty young.

I know that. And I also know that every child is different, as is
each parent and parenting style. And I'm comfortable with mine
and I think that the decisions that I have made for my child are right
for her and are one reason as to why she is doing well. And other
parents can say the same for their kids, and their rules not might
apply to my child, while mine might not apply to theirs. And
there's nothing wrong with that, imo.



P. Tierney

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Joni Rathbun > wrote:
>
>*> >child, and spoken to MY child - "Jacob, are you scared? It's ok. Mommy's
>*> >here." If my son said "he scareded me, mommy, that boy scareded me" or
>*> >"that boy try to push me down mommy" or "that boy bein' mean, mommy" or
>*> >something like that, I would say "well, his mommy is probably going to be
>*> >very upset with him when she finds out about it, isn't she? because we
>*> >know that nice little boys don't [push/be mean/scare other little boys] so
>*> >she will have to give him a time out or something."
>*>
>*> I would find this **extremely** irritating - more than just having my
>*> child spoken to by another adult. It would make me want to hit the
>*> other adult as a reaction to the passive aggressive behavior which
>*> really pushes my hot button. It wouldn't matter if my child was at
>*> fault or not. I think this kind of thing is much more judgmental of
>*> the other mom's parenting than just a direct interaction (polite) with
>*> the other child would be.
>*
>*
>*OH, makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up just thinking
>*about it! If another mother said those things in my presense I'd
>*tell her to go to hell. Then I'd tell my son that good little
>*mothers aren't so catty and perhaps her mother should place
>*her in time out. That's a form of bullying all its own. It's
>
>Heh.
>
>Well, it hasn't caused any problems for me (the two times that come to
>mind, both involving shoving incidents at the Barnes and Noble train
>table, the other moms have said "thank you" to me as they collected their
>errant offspring and told them something along the lines of "pushing is
>not nice, did you hear what that little boy's mommy just said?"

I'm surprised that you don't get this because I think of you as having
a very balanced sane perspective. In fact I waited to comment and
hesitated to say anything because I couldn't believe that you were
posting that way. And I was glad that other people agreed with me
because I thought maybe I was being over sensitive.

>
>perhaps it is regional, or perhaps I'm not describing the situation well,
>I don't know.
>
>*If my kid is out of line and for some reason I haven't tuned
>*in on it, say something direct. If you don't have the skills
>*to politely tell my kid he's frightening your kid, tap me on
>*the shoulder and tell me. But don't play little games.
>
>I'm not playing little games! I'm speaking to my son and telling him the
>absolute truth of the situation. In my experience, the other mother IS
>going to be upset with the kid for behaving badly, and IS going to give
>him some kind of negative consequence. It's not like I'm making
>accusations here, I'm just telling my son what is likely to happen to a
>little boy who behaves badly. I'm not sure why you guys are finding it
>upsetting.

Because I don't understand why you don't speak to the child or the mom
directly (Please don't shove - someone could be hurt) rather than
telling your son that the other child will be punished. It doesn't
matter whether the other mother feels that her child should have some
consequences - that isn't your call. The other child may have other
issues - the other mother may have issues. I think you've been pretty
lucky so far with this that the other mom has taken it well.

I also don't like the concept that you are encouraging your son to
feel that he is the king of the roost who mustn't be shoved. Part of
this is from the way I was treated as a child where I was told that
since I was older I shouldn't ever hit my sister, and my sister knew
she could torment me until I lost my temper and hit her and then she
could run to mom and I would get punished.

So when you think you are telling him the truth, I was urge you to
remember that when you say what you think another parent will or will
not do, you are both criticizing the child of another parent for
misbehavior, and implicitly criticizing their parenting for not
preventing it.

I would also say that if you got into the same situation twice, that
you weren't paying attention the first time. Maybe that isn't an
appropriate place for your ds to be. Maybe he's too young or too
timid for that venue (I don't know anything about that particular site
as I do not shop in person any more, and don't have young children
either.)

My dd#1 and I were visiting a childhood friend who had a little boy of
3- a year older than dd#1. Both of us moms were pg. The little boy
was very jealous of his mom's attention. So he took a metal train
engine and hit dd#1 on the head with it. DD#1 didn't cry and wasn't
particularly upset (although she was a bit startled). She did have a
small cut on her scalp. And my friend was very embarrassed. I didn't
have to say anything to either child or to my friend. I knew what the
problem was. Had dd#1 cried or needed comforting, I would have done
that, but I didn't encourage the children to do that.

(Just as I told dd#2 not to complain about the little boy next door -
if she couldn't play outside with him, she could play indoors without
him - and not to come crying and complaining to me unless she was
bleeding.)

grandma Rosalie

[lynn]

In article >,
Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> I don't think anyone else should *discipline* my
> child, but I think *anyone* (child or adult) has the
> right to tell my child (or myself) to stop doing something
> that is hurting or annoying them. I don't see anything
> rude in a parent teling my child to stop hitting (or
> whatever) their child, whether or not I'm there. I would
> just expect that the person go no further than that.

Agreed. I certainly talk to other people's children. We were at a church
social and a child was grabbing at a plate of cookies. I told him -
don't touch all the cookies, only touch the one you're going to take. My
husband commented on how I'd really become a mother - I guess he thinks
of "mothers" as people who keep an eye out for misbehaving children in
general - though I think I would've said the same thing before I had
children of my own. Guess I've always had the "mother" mindset, then :-)

- Lynn

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:

*I'm surprised that you don't get this because I think of you as having
*a very balanced sane perspective. In fact I waited to comment and

Well, thank you :)

*Because I don't understand why you don't speak to the child or the mom
*directly (Please don't shove - someone could be hurt) rather than

I guess I don't feel it is my place (unless someone is in danger. I would
certainly say "hey, don't jump in front of that car" directly to the child
in question, but I wouldn't say "hey, don't take that toy away from my
son" but rather say to my own son "now, don't just cry to me - tell that
boy you would like the train back, please."

*I also don't like the concept that you are encouraging your son to
*feel that he is the king of the roost who mustn't be shoved. Part of

I don't encourage that! I pretty much stay out of minor situations. I was
speaking about when there is a more significant problem. I mean, you know,
there are all kinds of situations ranging from "he looked at me funny" (no
intervention) to "he kicked me in the balls with a steel toed boot"
(intervention required) to "he keeps pushing me even though I asked him to
please stop and now he is stepping on my arm when I fall down"
(intervention required) - you get the idea :)

*So when you think you are telling him the truth, I was urge you to
*remember that when you say what you think another parent will or will
*not do, you are both criticizing the child of another parent for
*misbehavior, and implicitly criticizing their parenting for not
*preventing it.

I don't think of it in that way at all. First, I really don't think that
remarking on the bad behavior of a toddler is "criticizing" the child.
Let's face it - all toddlers (my own included) exhibit bad behavior at
some point. It's not a mark of a "bad" kid. It goes with the territory. If
my son takes away a toy from another kid, and his mom says to her kid
"ooh, I bet his mommy will be very upset about that," well - she's going
to be right, and I am not going to be at all upset, and frankly I can't
imagine why anyone would find it upsetting. My kid acted inappropriately
and I don't like it, and I have no problem with someone telling the
"victim" that that is the case! It seems to me the only people who would
be upset about it are those who might want to deny that their kid did
anything wrong. But when you get right down to it, it's all moot, because
who the heck is paying such close attention to my comments to my son? I
mean, I see moms and dads talking to their kids all the time but I don't
sit there and actively listen to what they are saying. If someone is
trying so hard to hear what I'm saying, then if whatever it is is
upsetting to them that's probably their own problem. Not that I *want* to
upset people.

*I would also say that if you got into the same situation twice, that
*you weren't paying attention the first time. Maybe that isn't an
*appropriate place for your ds to be. Maybe he's too young or too
*timid for that venue (I don't know anything about that particular site
*as I do not shop in person any more, and don't have young children
*either.)

Well, given that the particular place I'm talking about is full of kids
ranging from infants-in-arms to about 5 years old, and my son is going to
be 3 on September 9th, I think it's a fine venue. We've had very very few
problems there, but the times there are problems stick out in my mind.


--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Barbara Bomberger > wrote:

*LIke another poster, I also correct kids who drop soda cans on the
*sidewalk, teenagers wh make noice, and neighborhood kids who bully
*each other.

Hehe. I correct ADULTS who litter, throw cigarette butts in front of me
on the sidewalk, etc. But with kids, I figure too many people get upset
when you talk to their kids, so I don't - unless I *know* them.

*My take on this is that if my seven year old is walking down the
*street, drops a soda can on the sidewalk/street or in someone's front
*yard, I would think it very appropriate for another adult to tell my
*child quietly that they need to pick up their can.

Me too - but in my experience, people don't like it being done to their
kids. I mean, clearly you do, and I do, but I have seen moms screaming at
other moms who dared open their mouths to correct their sweet angels. So I
just don't get involved in that way, but rather work on dealing with my
own kids as I see fit.

*I would not *appreciate yelling. *

Who said anything about yelling?

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

> In >,
> dragonlady > wrote:
>
> *However, if you say TO YOUR CHILD but in a way designed to be overheard
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> But it isn't designed to be overheard, is my point.
>
> *BY ME OR MY CHILD, "That child isn't being very nice; I'll bet his
> *mommy will punish him for that," it will probably annoy the heck out of
> *me.
>
> Well, I have not had the bad luck to encounter a kid acting in an
> aggressive way in one of our regular hang-outs whose mom DID NOT get upset
> about it and issue a correction to the child. Therefore, I feel it is
> simply an honest expression of my beliefs about what is going to happen to
> say to my kid that I think the kid who behaved badly is going to get in
> trouble with his mom.
>
> *important stuff. But please don't make loud comments aimed at me or my
> *child without addressing us directly.
>
> Can you show me where in my original post I said I spoke loudly, or
> directed my coments to anyone except my child, please?

You may not have; however, it is what it sounded like you were doing.

And you DID say that the other parents in question have thanked you,
which must mean they ARE hearing you -- or am I missing something here,
too?

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
<snip>
>*So when you think you are telling him the truth, I was urge you to
>*remember that when you say what you think another parent will or will
>*not do, you are both criticizing the child of another parent for
>*misbehavior, and implicitly criticizing their parenting for not
>*preventing it.
>
>I don't think of it in that way at all. First, I really don't think that
>remarking on the bad behavior of a toddler is "criticizing" the child.
>Let's face it - all toddlers (my own included) exhibit bad behavior at
>some point. It's not a mark of a "bad" kid. It goes with the territory. If

Yes but not everyone knows that. There have been enough threads here
where people HAVE been critical and said that a child was 'bad', and
people have admitted that they at least had critical thoughts about a
mother's inability to cope with some child's behavior until they had a
child or children of their own.

And while you may not think you are criticizing the child, you are in
fact doing so, or else you wouldn't make the remark that the child
will get in trouble for it. Else why say anything. Do you also
remark that the mom will praise the other child for sharing or
whatever?

So you are both being critical and projecting your own response onto
the other mom as to what is appropriate. That response isn't going to
be always true or always appropriate. And why should your son care
what will happen to the other child?

>my son takes away a toy from another kid, and his mom says to her kid
>"ooh, I bet his mommy will be very upset about that," well - she's going
>to be right, and I am not going to be at all upset, and frankly I can't
>imagine why anyone would find it upsetting. My kid acted inappropriately
>and I don't like it, and I have no problem with someone telling the
>"victim" that that is the case! It seems to me the only people who would
>be upset about it are those who might want to deny that their kid did
>anything wrong. But when you get right down to it, it's all moot, because

I think that you mean 'I am going to be upset' rather than 'I am not
going to be at all upset'???

If your child took a toy away from another child, I think appropriate
behavior would be for YOU to sympathize with the other child (maybe
along with the other mom).

>who the heck is paying such close attention to my comments to my son? I
>mean, I see moms and dads talking to their kids all the time but I don't
>sit there and actively listen to what they are saying. If someone is
>trying so hard to hear what I'm saying, then if whatever it is is
>upsetting to them that's probably their own problem. Not that I *want* to
>upset people.

Presumably your son pays attention to what you say. That's why you
should be careful.

<snip>
grandma Rosalie

[R. Steve Walz]

P. Tierney wrote:
>
> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
[]
> My understanding of discipline isn't simply punishment, but
> is the teaching of proper behaviour.
-----------
How a child behaves is not really your ****ing business, it is the
child's, of course.

How you treat your child is your ONLY business, and that's where
the get their desires and motivations, and the way they respond
in their behavior.


> Given that, the above
> action is "disciplining". That's my understanding as how it's
> been used on this newsgroup, anyway.
------------
Nonsense, most people are totally confused and smeared between abuse
and harrassment in their impression of "discpline", which is why it's
a ****ty abusive word that should be done away with.
Steve

[P. Tierney]

"R. Steve Walz" > wrote in message
...
> P. Tierney wrote:
> >
> > "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> []
> > My understanding of discipline isn't simply punishment, but
> > is the teaching of proper behaviour.
> -----------
> How a child behaves is not really your ****ing business, it is the
> child's, of course.
>
> How you treat your child is your ONLY business, and that's where
> the get their desires and motivations, and the way they respond
> in their behavior.

Which, if you go back and read the thread, you'll find that your
latter point is pretty much consistent with every post that I made.
Perhaps you confused your attributions.

> > Given that, the above
> > action is "disciplining". That's my understanding as how it's
> > been used on this newsgroup, anyway.
> ------------
> Nonsense, most people are totally confused and smeared between abuse
> and harrassment in their impression of "discpline", which is why it's
> a ****ty abusive word that should be done away with.

Perhaps, but I'm not confused so I'll continue to use the word,
in the rare instances that I do, correctly. Some people will continue to
use such things incorrectly, but that is none of my business, of course.


P.
Tierney

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>*be always true or always appropriate. And why should your son care
>*what will happen to the other child?
>
>Well, I don't know whether this is "normal" but let's say a kid bangs his
>knee and cries - my son will ask "mommy, does he have a boo boo? is he
>going to get better?" and I will say something like "yes, he has a boo boo
>from banging his knee, and I bet his mommy or daddy will kiss it better
>for him." Or, hey, let's use an example from today. He was playing with A

I'm sorry but I don't care much for this. You are making your son
sound very fearful. When dd#1 was in first grade, the teacher told me
that when she would scold the little boy beside dd, dd would look as
though she was going to cry, so I don't think my children were lacking
in empathy, but I never remember any exchange REMOTELY like that.

In addition I don't think you CAN say with perfect confidence that a
mom or a dad will 'kiss it better' or that kissing it will always make
it better. Suppose the kid fell and broke his arm - that isn't going
to be made better by kissing.

>and B at their house. They were playing in the playroom. He came into the
>kitchen where I was and said "B pushed A, mommy, and A is sad now, and B
>is playing with her toy, is that okay?" and I said "no, sweetie, it isn't
>ok," and B's mommy, who was as it happens standing right next to me when

That makes him sound like a smug little tattletale.

>my son approached us said "thanks for letting us know. I'm going to take
>the toy from B and give him a time out now." But in general when things
>like this happen, my son approaches me and asks something along the lines
>of "what's going to happen now?" I am not sure, but I think it comforts
>him to know that kids who behave badly suffer some kind of consequence. At
>least, that is what it seems like from his own behavior.

I strongly disagree that this is an appropriate way to deal with
accidents, incidents or misbehavior on the part of other children. I
am revolted by the idea that in order to deal with something like a
kid taking a toy, a short person has to believe that the other child
will suffer punishment in order to be comforted.

>
>* *>my son takes away a toy from another kid, and his mom says to her kid
>*>"ooh, I bet his mommy will be very upset about that," well - she's going
>*>to be right, and I am not going to be at all upset, and frankly I can't
>*>imagine why anyone would find it upsetting.
>*
>*I think that you mean 'I am going to be upset' rather than 'I am not
>*going to be at all upset'???
>
>I mean "I am not going to be at all upset" about the mom telling her kid
>"I bet his mommy" (meaning me) "will be very upset." Not that I won't be
>upset about the toy-grabbing, which of course I will :)

That's what I thought, but it wasn't quite clear to me whether you
meant that you were going to be upset about the toy grabbing or that
you weren't upset about the mom telling her kid that you would be
upset.
>
>*Presumably your son pays attention to what you say. That's why you
>*should be careful.
>
>Of course.

grandma Rosalie

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>dragonlady > wrote:
>
>*> *important stuff. But please don't make loud comments aimed at me or my
>*> *child without addressing us directly.
>*>
>*> Can you show me where in my original post I said I spoke loudly, or
>*> directed my coments to anyone except my child, please?
>*
>*You may not have; however, it is what it sounded like you were doing.
>
>I guess I'm not so clear on what part of my post sounded like I was
>speaking loudly.
>
>*And you DID say that the other parents in question have thanked you,
>*which must mean they ARE hearing you -- or am I missing something here,
>*too?
>
>If I don't even know who the kid's mother is, I can't be directing my
>comments to her, can I? If the other kid's mom is within hearing range,
>she'll hear. If she isn't, she won't. Frankly, I could not care less if
>she hears or not as I am speaking only to my kid - but if she does hear,
>it's no skin off my nose.

OF COURSE you can direct comments at someone you don't know and that's
what it appeared you were doing. You didn't have to be talking loudly
- just in a tone of voice that could be overheard. We are unhappy
with the idea that you don't care whether the other mother can hear
you or not. At best it is insensitive and at worst rude.



grandma Rosalie

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

> In >,
> Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
> *be always true or always appropriate. And why should your son care
> *what will happen to the other child?
>
> Well, I don't know whether this is "normal" but let's say a kid bangs his
> knee and cries - my son will ask "mommy, does he have a boo boo? is he
> going to get better?" and I will say something like "yes, he has a boo boo
> from banging his knee, and I bet his mommy or daddy will kiss it better
> for him." Or, hey, let's use an example from today. He was playing with A
> and B at their house. They were playing in the playroom. He came into the
> kitchen where I was and said "B pushed A, mommy, and A is sad now, and B
> is playing with her toy, is that okay?" and I said "no, sweetie, it isn't
> ok," and B's mommy, who was as it happens standing right next to me when
> my son approached us said "thanks for letting us know. I'm going to take
> the toy from B and give him a time out now." But in general when things
> like this happen, my son approaches me and asks something along the lines
> of "what's going to happen now?" I am not sure, but I think it comforts
> him to know that kids who behave badly suffer some kind of consequence. At
> least, that is what it seems like from his own behavior.

The more you say, the LESS comfortable I am with your approach. I think
it is that you comment on 3rd parties who are NOT in the conversation,
and it feels, for want of a more clinical word, icky. Maybe it is akin
to triangulation, or to arguments in which people make a lot of "you"
statements instead of "I" statements.

In the case of a child with a hurt knee, I might say, "Yes, he has a boo
boo from banging his knee; do you want to see if he wants a hug to help
him feel better?" Or, if it was a total stranger in a public setting, I
might say, "Ooo, yes, it looked like it hurt. It's hard to see someone
get hurt like that, isn't it?" (And, if there were no adult right there
to comfort said total stranger, I would ALSO go to the child and say,
"Wow, that looked like it hurt! Do you want some cold water for that?"
or, if there WAS an adult there, I might describe what the adult was
actually DOING to help the child feel better.) I would not presume to
tell my kid what some OTHER mother (or father) is likely to do, and I
*would* want to offer my child something constructive to do when
something like this has upset him, even if it is to just talk to me
about how they feel about the situation.

In the second case, I'd respond to my own child's upset: "It sounds
like it was upsetting to you to watch that." I might even help them
explore further; your child asked if it was "OK" -- I'd probably say
something like, "Well, do you think it was OK?" or even "Do you think A
thinks it was OK?" Sometimes, I might go further, and ask if there was
something they wanted me to do, or to help them do about the situation.
I know kids this age are heavily into reciprocal justice; however, I
don't think it comforts them much to have this reinforced. I think they
are more comforted by having their own emotional response to what
happened validated.

I think I tried to respond to what my child needed -- why were they
coming to me? Were they upset? Were they angry about something? Were
they afraid? I'd respond to THEIR emotional state, and comment on that,
and help them sort out how THEY feel -- simply assuring them that the
other kid would be OK, or would get in trouble, or whatever really
doesn't address YOUR child's emotional state -- it may sound reassuring,
but I don't think it is.

(Or, if they were coming hoping to get another child in trouble -- a
decided possiblity at some point and with some children -- I've been
known to ASK why they were telling me. But that generally is reserved
for children older than yours.)
>
> * *>my son takes away a toy from another kid, and his mom says to her kid
> *>"ooh, I bet his mommy will be very upset about that," well - she's going
> *>to be right, and I am not going to be at all upset, and frankly I can't
> *>imagine why anyone would find it upsetting.
> *
> *I think that you mean 'I am going to be upset' rather than 'I am not
> *going to be at all upset'???
>
> I mean "I am not going to be at all upset" about the mom telling her kid
> "I bet his mommy" (meaning me) "will be very upset." Not that I won't be
> upset about the toy-grabbing, which of course I will :)

I, on the other hand, WOULD be upset at someone else presuming to speak
for me, whether they were right or not. I'd much rather the other
mother either respond to her own child ("That was upsetting, wasn't
it?") or to MY child ("That wasn't very nice, and I'd like you to give
it back") or to ME ("Is that your child, who just took a toy away from
mine? Would you please have him give it back?") Responding ABOUT me or
my child to your child just feels completely wrong.


>
> *Presumably your son pays attention to what you say. That's why you
> *should be careful.
>
> Of course.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(Nevermind) wrote:

> (Hillary Israeli) wrote in message
> >...
> > In >,
> > Barbara Bomberger > wrote:
> >
> > *LIke another poster, I also correct kids who drop soda cans on the
> > *sidewalk, teenagers wh make noice, and neighborhood kids who bully
> > *each other.
> >
> > Hehe. I correct ADULTS who litter, throw cigarette butts in front of me
> > on the sidewalk, etc. But with kids, I figure too many people get upset
> > when you talk to their kids, so I don't - unless I *know* them.
> >
> > *My take on this is that if my seven year old is walking down the
> > *street, drops a soda can on the sidewalk/street or in someone's front
> > *yard, I would think it very appropriate for another adult to tell my
> > *child quietly that they need to pick up their can.
>
> What if the *child*, let alone the child's parent, finds this
> inappropriate? We recently had an incident where some neighbor kids
> (10-12 years old?) were playing hardball in the street in front of our
> driveway (not, interestingly, in front of their own driveway). My
> husband asked -- nicely -- whether that was indeed a hardball they
> were using and, when finding out it was, asked that they move the game
> up and away from our cars, and a couple of the kids basically grunted
> sullenly at him and moved about 2 inches. Similar things happen when
> cars come driving down the street and the kids are playing there. The
> kids will move to just *barely* give you enough room to get by, and
> they do it in their own sweet time. I really worry that one of them is
> going to be flattened someday by a stoned teen driver or a drunk
> driver or just a distracted driver. (This is a residential suburban
> neighborhood, but our particular street gets a fair amount of traffic,
> as it runs between 2 major streets.) I never say anything to them, but
> I sometimes witness another driver saying something to them, and they
> always give attitude back, if only as the driver is driving away. When
> I was growing up, any adult was "in charge", but that doesn't seem to
> be the case anymore. In fact, I wonder why these kids' own parents
> don't tell them not to play hardball in the street inches away from
> other people's cars and yell at them when they see them taking such
> risks on the street (they must see them doing it occasionally, no?)

Have you ever asked the parents, or told them what you've observed (that
is, the kids giving adults who ask them to move attitude)?

(I'm not necessarily suggesting that you do that, but curious as to what
the parents' reaction was if you did.)

It IS a problem when there is a difference of opinion about what is and
is not appropriate behavior. I try to stick to commenting on stuff that
is generally agreed on -- like not littering. However, it sounds like a
potentially serious safety issue here.

If this is an ongoing problem, I might be tempted to call the police and
ask for extra patrols on your street -- the kids wouldn't know who the
call came from, and the police might get the parents' and kids'
attention in a way that you cannot.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:

*- just in a tone of voice that could be overheard. We are unhappy
*with the idea that you don't care whether the other mother can hear
*you or not. At best it is insensitive and at worst rude.

"we" who? :)

Anyway.

I (obviously) disagree. I mean, if I were saying "that other little boy's
mommy is an inattentive loser who should have been paying more attention
and had better damn well kick her kid's ass because he dared to upset my
precious," and I didn't care if I were overheard, then yeah, that would
definitely be rude. But if I say that I think the other mom is going to be
upset because her kid behaved badly, and I don't care if I'm overheard,
well - I don't think that is more rude than saying I think my friend Sam
is going to be hungry because he forgot his breakfast. I mean, I just
don't think it's a rude thing to say.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:

*x-no-archive:yes
* (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
*
*>In >,
*>Rosalie B. > wrote:
*>
*>*be always true or always appropriate. And why should your son care
*>*what will happen to the other child?
*>
*>Well, I don't know whether this is "normal" but let's say a kid bangs his
*>knee and cries - my son will ask "mommy, does he have a boo boo? is he
*>going to get better?" and I will say something like "yes, he has a boo boo
*>from banging his knee, and I bet his mommy or daddy will kiss it better
*>for him." Or, hey, let's use an example from today. He was playing with A
*
*I'm sorry but I don't care much for this. You are making your son
*sound very fearful. When dd#1 was in first grade, the teacher told me
*that when she would scold the little boy beside dd, dd would look as
*though she was going to cry, so I don't think my children were lacking
*in empathy, but I never remember any exchange REMOTELY like that.

Well, he does tend to be somewhat fearful, but he's growing out of it. He
jumps right into new situations these days like he never did before.
All kids are different, right?

*In addition I don't think you CAN say with perfect confidence that a
*mom or a dad will 'kiss it better' or that kissing it will always make
*it better. Suppose the kid fell and broke his arm - that isn't going
*to be made better by kissing.

I'm not talking about kids falling and breaking their arms. Gosh, why do
you have to assume everything I say is supposed to apply to every possible
situation? In fact recently my son was at a birthday party at a LittleGym,
and another little boy there DID fall and break his arm, and my son DID
run to his father and ask if the little boy would be ok, and my husband
said that the little boy's mommy was going to hug him and make him feel
better until they could get a doctor to fix it. Nobody thought he was RUDE
for doing so.

*>and B at their house. They were playing in the playroom. He came into the
*>kitchen where I was and said "B pushed A, mommy, and A is sad now, and B
*>is playing with her toy, is that okay?" and I said "no, sweetie, it isn't
*>ok," and B's mommy, who was as it happens standing right next to me when
*
*That makes him sound like a smug little tattletale.

Well, he's not. He's a sweet, caring, and IMO oversensitive little boy.
But thanks for the warm fuzzy. You have really brightened my day.

/me invokes sense memory of camp counselor telling me my son was the most
emotionally mature kid in the bunk last week, and also telling me that he
was such a pleasure to have she is reconsidering her retirement plans.

*accidents, incidents or misbehavior on the part of other children. I
*am revolted by the idea that in order to deal with something like a
*kid taking a toy, a short person has to believe that the other child
*will suffer punishment in order to be comforted.

I don't think my son has to believe the other child will be punished in
order to be comforted. I do think that his knowing bad behavior has
negative consequences to others as well as himself is important.

Gosh, I really don't think I've communicated effectively here.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Nevermind > wrote:

(Hillary Israeli) wrote in message >...
*> In >,
*> Barbara Bomberger > wrote:
*>
*> *LIke another poster, I also correct kids who drop soda cans on the
*> *sidewalk, teenagers wh make noice, and neighborhood kids who bully
*> *each other.
*>
*> Hehe. I correct ADULTS who litter, throw cigarette butts in front of me
*> on the sidewalk, etc. But with kids, I figure too many people get upset
*> when you talk to their kids, so I don't - unless I *know* them.
*>
*> *My take on this is that if my seven year old is walking down the
*> *street, drops a soda can on the sidewalk/street or in someone's front
*> *yard, I would think it very appropriate for another adult to tell my
*> *child quietly that they need to pick up their can.
*
*What if the *child*, let alone the child's parent, finds this
*inappropriate? We recently had an incident where some neighbor kids
*(10-12 years old?) were playing hardball in the street in front of our
*driveway (not, interestingly, in front of their own driveway). My
*husband asked -- nicely -- whether that was indeed a hardball they
*were using and, when finding out it was, asked that they move the game
*up and away from our cars, and a couple of the kids basically grunted
*sullenly at him and moved about 2 inches. Similar things happen when

Just yesterday I saw a horrifying exchange. My (nice) neighbors were out
in their driveway with loads of kids and other neighbors all hanging out
too. We kept seeing a 7ish year old girl on a bike with training wheels in
the street and when she passed the driveway my neighbor would politely
tell her to go on the sidewalk and she'd say she didn't have to, she was
allowed to be in the (dangerous) street. Then after a while her mom came
over and reamed my neighbor for trying to tell her daughter what to do.

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
<snip>
>*accidents, incidents or misbehavior on the part of other children. I
>*am revolted by the idea that in order to deal with something like a
>*kid taking a toy, a short person has to believe that the other child
>*will suffer punishment in order to be comforted.
>
>I don't think my son has to believe the other child will be punished in
>order to be comforted. I do think that his knowing bad behavior has
>negative consequences to others as well as himself is important.
>
>Gosh, I really don't think I've communicated effectively here.

I'd agree that you aren't communicating effectively, whether with us
or with your ds I don't know. I still (and when I said 'we' I meant
me and also Marie) do NOT think that telling your son that other
people's bad behavior will be punished is a good idea. I think it
may make him more fearful rather than more comforted. If someone will
be punished for something relatively minor like the examples you've
given, then what will be the consequence for HIM if he happens to
screw up and do something really 'bad'?

So not only is it NOT important for him to know that others suffer
consequences even while he does I think it is counterproductive for
him. People don't suffer consequences uniformly.

Besides, what are you going to do when everyone else does something
and he wants to know why he can't do it too?

Consequences for him in your family should be kept IN your family and
no parallels drawn to any other child or any other family.

grandma Rosalie

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>*- just in a tone of voice that could be overheard. We are unhappy
>*with the idea that you don't care whether the other mother can hear
>*you or not. At best it is insensitive and at worst rude.
>
>"we" who? :)

Me and the other mother who are disagreeing with you.

>Anyway.
>
>I (obviously) disagree. I mean, if I were saying "that other little boy's
>mommy is an inattentive loser who should have been paying more attention
>and had better damn well kick her kid's ass because he dared to upset my
>precious," and I didn't care if I were overheard, then yeah, that would
>definitely be rude. But if I say that I think the other mom is going to be
>upset because her kid behaved badly, and I don't care if I'm overheard,
>well - I don't think that is more rude than saying I think my friend Sam
>is going to be hungry because he forgot his breakfast. I mean, I just
>don't think it's a rude thing to say.

Obviously it depends a lot on the tone of voice and general demeanor.
But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks
it is your kid behaving badly for instance, it won't be her kid that
she's upset with and she certainly may be upset and angry with you for
saying that. You may not think at this point that it will ever BE
your kid, but that isn't necessarily so.

Saying that someone will be hungry because he forgot his breakfast is
a whole different arena. To be equivalent, it would have to be
something like "Sam is going to be upset with his mom for not giving
him his breakfast this morning."


grandma Rosalie

[Tai]

P. Tierney wrote:
> "Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In >,
>> Nevermind > wrote:
>>
>> (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
>>
>> Just yesterday I saw a horrifying exchange. My (nice) neighbors were
>> out in their driveway with loads of kids and other neighbors all
>> hanging out too. We kept seeing a 7ish year old girl on a bike with
>> training wheels in the street and when she passed the driveway my
>> neighbor would politely tell her to go on the sidewalk and she'd say
>> she didn't have to, she was allowed to be in the (dangerous) street.
>> Then after a while her mom came over and reamed my neighbor for
>> trying to tell her daughter what to do.
>
> Dangerous in what way?
>


Do you think it safe for a child who still uses training wheels to share the
road with cars? It suggests lack of experience as well as lack of expertise,
to me.

In my experience most 7 year olds don't have the cognitive ability to judge
traffic well enough to cross the road safely so I'd find an unsupervised
child of that age riding his bike on the road to be worthy of my concern,
training wheels or not. Children have been known to lie about whether or not
they have permission to do something that looks a bit questionable to an
onlooker.

> I ask because my child has been told not to do certain "dangerous"
> things that I've told her were okay, so I was just wondering.
>
Perhaps the neighbour should have followed the girl home to check because it
does sound like the mother was watching out for her daughter. "Reaming"
someone out for showing concern for your child's safety seems bizarre to me.
A simple "thank you for your concern but she's fine", should be sufficient.

Tai

[P. Tierney]

"Tai" > wrote in message
...
> P. Tierney wrote:
> > "Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> In >,
> >> Nevermind > wrote:
> >>
> >> (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
> >>
> >> Just yesterday I saw a horrifying exchange. My (nice) neighbors were
> >> out in their driveway with loads of kids and other neighbors all
> >> hanging out too. We kept seeing a 7ish year old girl on a bike with
> >> training wheels in the street and when she passed the driveway my
> >> neighbor would politely tell her to go on the sidewalk and she'd say
> >> she didn't have to, she was allowed to be in the (dangerous) street.
> >> Then after a while her mom came over and reamed my neighbor for
> >> trying to tell her daughter what to do.
> >
> > Dangerous in what way?
>
> Do you think it safe for a child who still uses training wheels to share
the
> road with cars?

The poster didn't specifically say that the child was "sharing the road
with cars". That is why I asked.

> In my experience most 7 year olds don't have the cognitive ability to
judge
> traffic well enough to cross the road safely

But even you say "most". Not all. Age isn't the only thing to be
used with regards to assessing the situation.

> so I'd find an unsupervised
> child of that age riding his bike on the road to be worthy of my concern,
> training wheels or not. Children have been known to lie about whether or
not
> they have permission to do something that looks a bit questionable to an
> onlooker.

True, though not in this case, it seems.

> > I ask because my child has been told not to do certain "dangerous"
> > things that I've told her were okay, so I was just wondering.
> >
> Perhaps the neighbour should have followed the girl home to check because
it
> does sound like the mother was watching out for her daughter. "Reaming"
> someone out for showing concern for your child's safety seems bizarre to
me.

Sometimes, a "showing concern for your child's safety" comes across
as "making negative conclusions about the decisions of the parent".
You put it in the best possible light, and you might be correct, but I'm
trying to see how the other side might look at the matter.

> A simple "thank you for your concern but she's fine", should be
sufficient.

Probably so.



P.
Tierney

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:

*But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
*you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
*isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
*is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks

I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
then.

*it is your kid behaving badly for instance, it won't be her kid that
*she's upset with and she certainly may be upset and angry with you for
*saying that. You may not think at this point that it will ever BE
*your kid, but that isn't necessarily so.

Huh? If my kid did something wrong, I wouldn't be telling him the mom of
the kid he did it too would be upset with the other kid! The whole premise
of this discussion is that someone ELSE has behaved badly. I've already
said that ALL kids behave badly at some point. I'm not talking about the
situations in which the problem child is my own!


--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>*But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
>*you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
>*isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
>*is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks
>
>I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
>then.

It's not that she would be unreasonable. She would just not agree
with you that she should be upset for whatever reason. You do not get
to decree what is reasonable.
>
>*it is your kid behaving badly for instance, it won't be her kid that
>*she's upset with and she certainly may be upset and angry with you for
>*saying that. You may not think at this point that it will ever BE
>*your kid, but that isn't necessarily so.
>
>Huh? If my kid did something wrong, I wouldn't be telling him the mom of
>the kid he did it too would be upset with the other kid! The whole premise
>of this discussion is that someone ELSE has behaved badly. I've already
>said that ALL kids behave badly at some point. I'm not talking about the
>situations in which the problem child is my own!

And my point is - Neither you nor the other mother may know which kid
was in the wrong.

I have been in that situation both as the kid (from both sides - as
the kid who was not to blame who was held accountable and as the kid
who did the wrong thing and someone else took the fall) and as the mom
and as the teacher - where the person that was blamed for the problem
was not the one that was actually at fault.

And so if your kid precipitated the problem, you might not know it.
And/or if your kid reacted to the other kid that 'started it' and the
other mother saw your kid's reaction and not that her kid was the
instigator, she might THINK that your kid started it.

You are relying on your being able to always be correct in your
judgement of what happened. That won't always be so - you may be
wrong sometimes.

Given that almost all children misbehave at some point the correllary
is that parents are not perfect. As a not-perfect parent I would
refrain from expecting that I would always know the whole truth of any
situation and would not attribute motives and reactions to another
person based on my own particular world view.

grandma Rosalie

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In <AET0b.211339$YN5.145510@sccrnsc01>,
>P. Tierney > wrote:
>
>*
>*"Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
...
>*> In >,
>*> Nevermind > wrote:
>*>
>*> (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
>*>
>*> Just yesterday I saw a horrifying exchange. My (nice) neighbors were out
>*> in their driveway with loads of kids and other neighbors all hanging out
>*> too. We kept seeing a 7ish year old girl on a bike with training wheels in
>*> the street and when she passed the driveway my neighbor would politely
>*> tell her to go on the sidewalk and she'd say she didn't have to, she was
>*> allowed to be in the (dangerous) street. Then after a while her mom came
>*> over and reamed my neighbor for trying to tell her daughter what to do.
>*
>* Dangerous in what way?
>*
>* I ask because my child has been told not to do certain "dangerous"
>*things that I've told her were okay, so I was just wondering.
>
>Dangerous in the way that the location in question is on the far side of a
>blind curve which people heading toward the end of the road often take at
>about 45-50 mph, assuming there isn't anyone blocking their way. It's a
>problem.

[OT I wrote: This is a Hobson's choice, but I find that Hobson's
choice is NO choice, and what I mean is that there is no good choice.
What do you call that?]

I have often found that when I warned people against something that I
thought was dangerous, I was assured that I was crazy and that they
had been doing it that way for years with no problem. (Usually
without them actually SAYING I was crazy, but I could tell that's what
they thought.) Then when something DOES happen, they blame me as if
my pointing out the problem caused it to happen.

OTOH if you don't do anything, and the child does get killed or
injured it would surely be something that would be difficult to live
with, both by the motorist involved and by you.

Actually, it usually is against the law to ride on the sidewalk
although that doesn't make it less dangerous to ride in that street.

About the only options open are:
a) try to persuade the mom that it is indeed dangerous (perhaps by
getting emotional and crying).
b) try to make the street less dangerous for everyone by various means
- I can think of about 5 ways. You probably ought to do this anyway.
c) find a safer place for her to ride that would be acceptable to her
and her mom

grandma Rosalie

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:

*x-no-archive:yes
* (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
*
*>In >,
*>Rosalie B. > wrote:
*>
*>*But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
*>*you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
*>*isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
*>*is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks
*>
*>I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
*>then.
*
*It's not that she would be unreasonable. She would just not agree
*with you that she should be upset for whatever reason. You do not get
*to decree what is reasonable.

What reasonable parent would not be upset if his or her kid were bullying
or otherwise behaving inappropriately to someone? THAT is the scenario we
are discussing, right? If not, we are totally not even on the same page.

*And my point is - Neither you nor the other mother may know which kid
*was in the wrong.

That's not true, in the hypothetical situation we're discussing.

*You are relying on your being able to always be correct in your
*judgement of what happened. That won't always be so - you may be
*wrong sometimes.

It's not open to speculation in some cirucmstances - if you are there and
watching what is going on - and that's the type of situation we're
discussing here.

*is that parents are not perfect. As a not-perfect parent I would
*refrain from expecting that I would always know the whole truth of any
*situation and would not attribute motives and reactions to another

Certainly, I wouldn't "always" know either. But you know, if you are
standing there watching your kid play with a toy, all by himself, at a
train table where there are no other kids within a three foot radius, and
you see another kid come over from across the room, yell "mine," grab the
toy, and push your kid to the ground, well, it's pretty obvious who is in
the wrong. That is the type of situation I'm talking about.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>*x-no-archive:yes
>* (Hillary Israeli) wrote:
>*
>*>In >,
>*>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>*>
>*>*But I think that saying 'that mom is going to be upset' indicated that
>*>*you think she SHOULD be upset, and the implication is that if she
>*>*isn't upset that she isn't parenting well. If she agrees with you and
>*>*is upset, then probably there won't be a problem. But if she thinks
>*>
>*>I guess I'm lucky that I haven't encountered any unreasonable parents
>*>then.
>*
>*It's not that she would be unreasonable. She would just not agree
>*with you that she should be upset for whatever reason. You do not get
>*to decree what is reasonable.
>
>What reasonable parent would not be upset if his or her kid were bullying
>or otherwise behaving inappropriately to someone? THAT is the scenario we
>are discussing, right? If not, we are totally not even on the same page.

No that's not right. You may have been backed down to discussing a
specific incident. But even your specific incident may have
antecedents that you have failed to observe.

In any case, *I* am not discussing a specific incident. I am
discussing the whole area of interacting or not interacting with
another parent by telling your child that the other mom will be upset
with her child.

a) You don't know that the other parent is reasonable and b) you may
not know that the other child is behaving inappropriately in a way
that would make another parent be upset. And c) I don't think telling
your son that another child will get into trouble is a good idea and I
don't think it an appropriate way to comfort a child.
>
>*And my point is - Neither you nor the other mother may know which kid
>*was in the wrong.
>
>That's not true, in the hypothetical situation we're discussing.
>
How can you say it is not true in a hypothetical situation? In my
hypothesis it is true.

>*You are relying on your being able to always be correct in your
>*judgement of what happened. That won't always be so - you may be
>*wrong sometimes.
>
>It's not open to speculation in some cirucmstances - if you are there and
>watching what is going on - and that's the type of situation we're
>discussing here.

No we are not. We are discussing situations where you may not have
been watching what is going on too. One of the examples you gave the
children were in another room.
>
>*is that parents are not perfect. As a not-perfect parent I would
>*refrain from expecting that I would always know the whole truth of any
>*situation and would not attribute motives and reactions to another
>
>Certainly, I wouldn't "always" know either. But you know, if you are
>standing there watching your kid play with a toy, all by himself, at a
>train table where there are no other kids within a three foot radius, and
>you see another kid come over from across the room, yell "mine," grab the
>toy, and push your kid to the ground, well, it's pretty obvious who is in
>the wrong. That is the type of situation I'm talking about.

OK - you may be certain in that particular instance that the other kid
is wrong. But you can't extrapolate from that very restricted and
unusual instance to say that it is appropriate or courteous for you to
speak for another mother that she will be upset.

Possibly, your son took the toy from the place where the other kid
was. Or maybe it is the toddler syndrome - that old joke - if I had
it once it's mine, if I see it and want it it's mine etc.

And really and truly the bottom line is - I don't like comforting one
kid by telling him that another kid will get in trouble. I just think
it (to use a phrase I hate) sends the wrong message.



grandma Rosalie

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

> In >,
> Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
> *- just in a tone of voice that could be overheard. We are unhappy
> *with the idea that you don't care whether the other mother can hear
> *you or not. At best it is insensitive and at worst rude.
>
> "we" who? :)
>
> Anyway.
>
> I (obviously) disagree. I mean, if I were saying "that other little boy's
> mommy is an inattentive loser who should have been paying more attention
> and had better damn well kick her kid's ass because he dared to upset my
> precious," and I didn't care if I were overheard, then yeah, that would
> definitely be rude. But if I say that I think the other mom is going to be
> upset because her kid behaved badly, and I don't care if I'm overheard,
> well - I don't think that is more rude than saying I think my friend Sam
> is going to be hungry because he forgot his breakfast. I mean, I just
> don't think it's a rude thing to say.
>
> --
> hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
> "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
> not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

Well, it would depend. If I were Sam, and were with you and your son,
I'd find it pretty inappropriate for you to tell your son, within my
hearing, that I was going to be hungry later; I'd find it inappropriate
for you to say ANYTHING about me to your son within my hearing, as
though I weren't there -- even if I was sitting at the next table, and
not necessarily a direct part of your conversation, but clearly within
hearing range.

If your son asked you about the state of my hunger, I'd expect you to
suggest he ask me himself, instead of presuming to answer for me.

If I were Sam, and we'd been together and then parted, what you say
about me is pretty irrelevant -- I'm not likely to hear it, and I would
have to assume there was some reason for you feeling compelled to
comment on the state of my diet to your son.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care