Re: Graduation

[Mary Ann]

Jeff Utz > wrote in message
...
> My cousin had his a few weeks ago. It was pretty nice. When the kids
walked
> in descending order of GPA for those who got honors and highest honors
> (those who did not get honors came in alphabetical order after those with
> honors). I liked this. It let those who worked harder stay near the
front.

High grades does not equal working harder. No one works harder than my
daughter and she will never be a consistent A student. My son does nothing
at all and gets As. I would rather see her honored for her effort.

[David desJardins]

Kevin Karplus writes:
> There is very little public recognition given to students who do well
> academically (unlike sports stars or cheerleaders). Why take away the
> very small recognition they do get (in this case getting their degrees
> a minute or two earlier)?

There is very little public recognition given to children who are taller
than their peers. Should we give them prizes based on their height?

David desJardins

[David desJardins]

Jeff Utz writes:
> When the kids walked in descending order of GPA for those who got
> honors and highest honors (those who did not get honors came in
> alphabetical order after those with honors). I liked this. It let
> those who worked harder stay near the front.

Do you really think there's a positive correlation between working
harder and getting better grades? If there is such a correlation, it's
very weak. I'm not even sure that the correlation isn't negative in
many cases (i.e., the brightest kids don't have to work hard at all, to
get good grades).

David desJardins

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes David desJardins > wrote:

>Kevin Karplus writes:
>> There is very little public recognition given to students who do well
>> academically (unlike sports stars or cheerleaders). Why take away the
>> very small recognition they do get (in this case getting their degrees
>> a minute or two earlier)?
>
>There is very little public recognition given to children who are taller
>than their peers. Should we give them prizes based on their height?

No they get basketball scholarships. (Or bugged to play basketball)

There are lots of things that aren't recognized in school and the
things that are recognized (perfect attendance) may not be worthwhile.

My kids did things OUT of school that weren't recognized and I doubt
if they should have been. They were recognized in their own venues.
One daughter was a high point winner at Preliminary level (one star
international event) for her region and she got a trophy for that -
why should she get extra HS recognition as well? Her reward was in
competing well.

One daughter graduated 3rd in the class and got an appointment to the
USAFA (Air Force Academy). It wasn't even mentioned at the ceremony.
[When she went to apply for admission to the Naval Academy (her first
choice) the person in the guidance office (not the counselor BTW -
just a facilitator) asked if it was a 4 year school. They'd never
heard of it. This is somewhat surprising since we live in Maryland in
the same state as the Naval Academy.]

grandma Rosalie

[Cheryl]

On Wed, 2 Jul 2003 18:45:48 EDT, "Rosalie B."
> wrote:

>As a middle school teacher I had to grade on effort expended. In
>elementary school the kids were graded on whether they achieved grade
>level standards. In middle school it was were they 'working up to
>their potential' whatever we perceived their potential to be. I
>thought this was a horrible idea. The kids who were bright and didn't
>have to work were given poor grades for getting the material easily
>and the kids who worked hard but couldn't get it were given good
>grades because they tried.
>
>Then when they got to hs, they went back to strict numerical grades -
>if you didn't get the numbers you didn't get the grades.
>
>I thought this was very confusing for the kids. I don't think it did
>anything for their 'self-image' to go from 'If you work hard you will
>succeed' to 'If you don't get 65% on your test you will fail'. It
>didn't inspire the bright kids to work harder for sure.
>
The year that I finished primary school was the year they decided to
not award a Dux of the school but instead a "Most Improved" student.
Considering that I'd topped my class (there were only 2 classes in
each year group) every year of primary school I had a great chance
of getting dux but absolutely no chance of getting most improved.
It's no fairer a way to grade than the other and can actually do
some damage to students if they decide to go the other way and not
work at all because you don't get any reward for it. This is in
effect what I did and my end of high school results suffered for it.

Cheryl

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:
>x-no-archive:yes
> "Mary Ann" > wrote:
>>
>>Jeff Utz > wrote in message
...
>>> My cousin had his a few weeks ago. It was pretty nice. When the kids
>>walked
>>> in descending order of GPA for those who got honors and highest honors
>>> (those who did not get honors came in alphabetical order after those with
>>> honors). I liked this. It let those who worked harder stay near the
>>front.
>>
>>High grades does not equal working harder.

Agreed, and the above came out as poorly worded, IMO. However, I do
think that graduation is a perfectly appropriate occasion for giving
some recognition to those who have achieved high grades.

>As a middle school teacher I had to grade on effort expended. In
>elementary school the kids were graded on whether they achieved grade
>level standards. In middle school it was were they 'working up to
>their potential' whatever we perceived their potential to be. I
>thought this was a horrible idea. The kids who were bright and didn't
>have to work were given poor grades for getting the material easily
>and the kids who worked hard but couldn't get it were given good
>grades because they tried.

This reminds me of high school where a math teacher put a comment on my
report card to the effect that I wasn't putting forth much effort in
her class. They had eliminated the enriched level classes at this
grade level and I was dying of boredom in this class. I would have
killed to have been given even a shred of work that would have required
some effort on my part. Since the teacher acknowledged that she wasn't
providing any opportunity for me to make an effort, I wondered what the
point of the comment was!

Acknowledging when a student is making an exceptional effort even though
the results don't necessarily show it is a good thing. Pointing out when
little effort is expended because the requirements don't stretch the
student's abilities seems silly to me. It is more a comment on the
inadequacy of the course for the individual student than anything else.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Jeff Utz]

"Mary Ann" > wrote in message
...
>
> Jeff Utz > wrote in message
> ...
> > My cousin had his a few weeks ago. It was pretty nice. When the kids
> walked
> > in descending order of GPA for those who got honors and highest honors
> > (those who did not get honors came in alphabetical order after those
with
> > honors). I liked this. It let those who worked harder stay near the
> front.
>
> High grades does not equal working harder. No one works harder than my
> daughter and she will never be a consistent A student. My son does nothing
> at all and gets As. I would rather see her honored for her effort.
>

I know what you mean. At least at my cousin's graduation, I think the
majority of the people at the front of the line worked hard to get there (I
know my cousin worked hard to get where he was, but, given his talents, if
he worked harder, he would have been closer to the front of the line.) Not
all. But academic achievement is what it is all about. And when it comes to
measuring academic achievement, grades are what count.

I do like the suggestion of you honoring her for her hard work. She earned
it.

Jeff

[E]

"Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Mary Ann wrote:
> >
<SNIP>
> > High grades does not equal working harder. No one works harder than my
> > daughter and she will never be a consistent A student. My son does
nothing
> > at all and gets As. I would rather see her honored for her effort.
>
> Then you should so honor her.
>
> There is very little public recognition given to students who do well
> academically (unlike sports stars or cheerleaders). Why take away the
> very small recognition they do get (in this case getting their degrees
> a minute or two earlier)?
>
> --
> Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
> life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
> Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
> Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
> Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
> Affiliations for identification only.
>

NOT TRUE, look at all the scholarships good grades can get you! speaking
from experience, I worked very hard in college, I was also working full time
and a mother to 5 and 7 yo kids, with NO help from my then husband. I got
decent grades, but not A's, therefore, scholarships for me were few and far
between, even though I was struggling to do well.
not to mention my present husband, who did hardly any work (as did the prev.
poster's daughter) and yet they get great grades... just doesn't seem fair
to me...
Edith
nak

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
"E" > wrote:

<snip>
>
>NOT TRUE, look at all the scholarships good grades can get you! speaking
>from experience, I worked very hard in college, I was also working full time
>and a mother to 5 and 7 yo kids, with NO help from my then husband. I got
>decent grades, but not A's, therefore, scholarships for me were few and far
>between, even though I was struggling to do well.
>not to mention my present husband, who did hardly any work (as did the prev.
>poster's daughter) and yet they get great grades... just doesn't seem fair
>to me...
>Edith
>nak

College grades are about giving the professors what they ask for.
Whether you have to work hard for them or not is immaterial. Grant
and scholarship money may be dependent on grades, but just grades will
not get you money.

My son is currently trying to get his degree, working full time (more
than a 40 hour week on second shift so he can go to school) and is a
father to two kids - his wife is working so he's responsible for the
kids to a great degree. He's having figure out how to get his own
funding too, and he gets grants etc. and he changed jobs so he could
get reimbursement from his employer too. Lots of people have BTDT.

So I see nothing wrong or unfair about an academic institution
rewarding persons who do well under their guidelines with recognition
for having done well. Why would they do otherwise?

It's neither a popularity contest or a deservability contest. It's
about academic achievement.


grandma Rosalie

[E]

"Marijke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Louise" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Does anyone else have a school graduation in the family this year?
> > Any stories to tell?
> >
> > Here we are now parents of a high school graduate! The ceremony was
> > last night. They wore caps and gowns over their dress clothes, which
> > I've never seen before at a high school but which gave them the
> >
>
> We're doing this next year. Our 3 children go to 2 different schools, but
I
> don't think that they "do" the cap thing, only the gown. I know when I
> graduated from HS 25 yrs ago, it was gown only too.
>
> Marijke, in Montreal
>

but the cap (with tassel) is the best part... throwing it, etc... :)
Edith