To punish or not to punish

[Tiffany]

Here is the situation:

daughter is at friends house today. Parents took my daughter, their 2
daughters and the oldest daughter's boyfriend to the movies. They were going
to shop around after the movie so parent were picking them up 45 minutes
after movie is over. Father shows up early though. Father follows them as
they go to the back of the theater where there is seclusion and woods.
Father watches for a bit as the boy, oldest daughter and my daughters friend
take some hits off a pipe. (They were smoking pot) My daughter's friend only
took a hit to 'try it' but the others were definitely into smoking it. My
daughter said no...... didn't do it. Father backs it up and best friend
backed up the story plus my daughter swears on her father's grave. To much
time passed for me to be able to tell if she was high. Her eyes were glassy
but everyone had been crying. I might go buy a drug test just in case.......
just to make sure. Otherwise I have to assume she made a good decision in
not smoking. What I am not happy about is that she followed them back into
the edge of the woods. Her and her friend both say they didn't know why the
sister and boyfriend wanted them to go back. I told S that you don't trust
anyone and ever just follow someone somewhere unsafe.

So my issue is to punish her for putting herself in that situation where she
could have gotten hurt or gotten in legal trouble.

Help! I am sitting on this..... truly don't know what to do. I do want to
run a drug test and did tell her that is a possibility.

T

[Moon Shyne]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
> Here is the situation:
>
> daughter is at friends house today. Parents took my daughter, their 2
> daughters and the oldest daughter's boyfriend to the movies. They were going
> to shop around after the movie so parent were picking them up 45 minutes
> after movie is over. Father shows up early though. Father follows them as
> they go to the back of the theater where there is seclusion and woods.
> Father watches for a bit as the boy, oldest daughter and my daughters friend
> take some hits off a pipe. (They were smoking pot) My daughter's friend only
> took a hit to 'try it' but the others were definitely into smoking it. My
> daughter said no...... didn't do it. Father backs it up and best friend
> backed up the story plus my daughter swears on her father's grave. To much
> time passed for me to be able to tell if she was high. Her eyes were glassy
> but everyone had been crying. I might go buy a drug test just in case.......
> just to make sure. Otherwise I have to assume she made a good decision in
> not smoking. What I am not happy about is that she followed them back into
> the edge of the woods. Her and her friend both say they didn't know why the
> sister and boyfriend wanted them to go back. I told S that you don't trust
> anyone and ever just follow someone somewhere unsafe.
>
> So my issue is to punish her for putting herself in that situation where she
> could have gotten hurt or gotten in legal trouble.
>
> Help! I am sitting on this..... truly don't know what to do. I do want to
> run a drug test and did tell her that is a possibility.

Speaking as the mother of a teenager daughter, the the former stepmother of
(former) teenagers, I'm not sure that punishment is even part of the picture:

1. Rather than going off alone, which would have been substantially less safe
then staying as part of a group, she stayed with the friends with whom she was
supposed to be staying.
2. Witnesses all corroborate that she did not do drugs

She made the right decisions, and it seems that you want to punish her anyway,
as well as giving her the message that you don't trust her, her friends, or the
friend's father by forcing her to submit to a drug test.

What sort of message do you think you're sending? The one I'm receiving, after
reading you post is that

1. You don't trust her
2. You don't trust her friends
3. You don't trust her friend's parents
4. Despite all evidence, you think she's a liar, as are her friends and her
friend's parents.

I can just imagine how my daughter would react - and I wouldn't blame her.

(just my 2 cents)

>
> T
>
>

[xkatx]

"Moon Shyne" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Here is the situation:
>>
>> daughter is at friends house today. Parents took my daughter, their 2
>> daughters and the oldest daughter's boyfriend to the movies. They were
>> going
>> to shop around after the movie so parent were picking them up 45 minutes
>> after movie is over. Father shows up early though. Father follows them as
>> they go to the back of the theater where there is seclusion and woods.
>> Father watches for a bit as the boy, oldest daughter and my daughters
>> friend
>> take some hits off a pipe. (They were smoking pot) My daughter's friend
>> only
>> took a hit to 'try it' but the others were definitely into smoking it. My
>> daughter said no...... didn't do it. Father backs it up and best friend
>> backed up the story plus my daughter swears on her father's grave. To
>> much
>> time passed for me to be able to tell if she was high. Her eyes were
>> glassy
>> but everyone had been crying. I might go buy a drug test just in
>> case.......
>> just to make sure. Otherwise I have to assume she made a good decision in
>> not smoking. What I am not happy about is that she followed them back
>> into
>> the edge of the woods. Her and her friend both say they didn't know why
>> the
>> sister and boyfriend wanted them to go back. I told S that you don't
>> trust
>> anyone and ever just follow someone somewhere unsafe.
>>
>> So my issue is to punish her for putting herself in that situation where
>> she
>> could have gotten hurt or gotten in legal trouble.
>>
>> Help! I am sitting on this..... truly don't know what to do. I do want to
>> run a drug test and did tell her that is a possibility.
>
> Speaking as the mother of a teenager daughter, the the former stepmother
> of
> (former) teenagers, I'm not sure that punishment is even part of the
> picture:
>
> 1. Rather than going off alone, which would have been substantially less
> safe
> then staying as part of a group, she stayed with the friends with whom she
> was
> supposed to be staying.
> 2. Witnesses all corroborate that she did not do drugs
>
> She made the right decisions, and it seems that you want to punish her
> anyway,
> as well as giving her the message that you don't trust her, her friends,
> or the
> friend's father by forcing her to submit to a drug test.
>
> What sort of message do you think you're sending? The one I'm receiving,
> after
> reading you post is that
>
> 1. You don't trust her
> 2. You don't trust her friends
> 3. You don't trust her friend's parents
> 4. Despite all evidence, you think she's a liar, as are her friends and
> her
> friend's parents.
>
> I can just imagine how my daughter would react - and I wouldn't blame her.
>
> (just my 2 cents)
>
>>
>> T

Speaking as a 'recent teenager' myself, and being one who has definitely
been in similar situations, I say both Moon and 'Kate have the same ideas as
I do. The way you have said things, I wouldn't doubt that S is very
trusting of you right now, not that I'm saying she is or isn't. This is
obviously a situation that might tear at her, since she may have felt
trapped. Should she have stayed with the group of friends that she was
supposed to or should she have wandered off? Would she have gotten into
more trouble if she strayed from the group she was to be with or if she
stayed with them.
Being a teenager is still fresh in my mind. Heck, it was just less than 3
years ago that I was one of them myself. Trust your daughter. Her friends
have said she didn't join in anything more than staying with them. Take
everyone's word for it and trust them. Don't continue to be suspicious of
her, and even if you are and can't help it, which is understandable, don't
let her know it. What have her friends to gain by lying? It not like they
would get into more or less trouble by lying for her.
Don't threaten with a drug test, maybe try and let her know that although
you may disapprove her hanging around those friends at the time, praise her
and tell her you're proud of her for making the right decision to not wander
off alone AND not to smoke pot with them. Hammer the idea into her head
that you're proud of her for making the best decision she could have in the
situation she might feel she was cornered into. Be glad that the dad of her
friends was honest with you and actually told you. Believe it or not,
there's parents out there who might not have even said anything if they saw
it. In situations like this, it's hard for the parents and hard for the
kids.
You're just trying to deal with it the best way you can, and I honestly
don't see a reason that you should punish her. Maybe let her know that if
she finds herself in a similar situation ever again with the same friends or
even different ones, that she could always pick up a payphone and call you
rather than find herself in the same spot again, because, as a teenager,
it's always going to be hard to make the right decision and actually feel
it's the right decision, but in the case, as a teenager, I think she really
did make a good decision.
Do all you can to make sure that you let her know you're happy of her
decisions. Don't wait for the day that it could end up being different and
you really are faced with a real issue that you'd rather not have... I kind
of know what that is like. Be happy for her, as well as her friend's
father's responsible actions to inform you of what all the kids were doing.



(kind of irrelevant, but...)
About 2 years ago, my parents went out of town for the weekend. They left
my brothers at home since it was just a 2 full day and one overnight that
they would be gone. My mom asked me, if I happened to be around their
place, to stop in and just check on my brothers, just to make sure that the
house hadn't burned to the ground or that they didn't lose control over the
place with people. They were told no parties, and no more than 2 friends
each in the house at one time. (To me, that seemed MORE than unreasonable.)
During the late afternoon, I happened to be out with a friend for a bit, and
we stopped by my parents place. I had a key at home but didn't bring it
since I figured they were either home and fine, or out in the middle of the
afternoon, and there was no reason to go inside.
As soon as I pulled up, I could see through the curtains that they were
inside. I knocked on the door. No answer. I could hear murmurs and
whispering inside, also the sounds of moving around. I knocked again.
Again, no answer. I banged on the door and opened the mail chute to call to
them, and let them know I wasn't stupid and knew they were in there. I then
went next door to the neighbour who had a spare key but she wasn't home, so
I came back to the door and continued to bang on it another time. I opened
the mail chute again and started to really look in, and that's when I could
smell pot in there, and it was really strong and fresh. I then went back to
the car, grabbed my cell and started calling into the house, which, by now,
had become still and quiet, yet no one had gone out. No answer inside, so
since I felt there was cause to be concerned, I called my aunt and told her
what I knew was going on. I didn't know what else to do. She then started
calling the house, and finally, after a good 10 minutes of banging on the
door, my brother fianally answered the door. One look at him and I knew
exactly what was up, even though I had known before the door was opened.
There was about 6 kids in the house, but really, I didn't care about that as
much as anything else. I kicked all those kids out, and my aunt asked if I
was able to take my brothers over to my place until my parents got home the
next day. I packed them into the car, and talked to my aunt later that
night. She said that my mom should know about this. I felt I shouldn't
bother telling her because no matter what, it's a lose-lose situation for
me. I tell her, and I knew she would get mad at me for causing a big scene,
telling my auntie, since I honestly didn't know where else to go for advice
and help and for not minding my own business. If I didn't tell my mom, I
also felt that if and when she found out, she would be ****ed off at me for
not telling her. I honestly felt like I was at a loss no matter what. My
aunt then said that now that she knew about this, she would go directly to
my mom and talk to her, telling her exactly what I had said. My aunt even
talked to both my brothers separately and they both lied to her at first,
but then they realized they were getting nowhere and told her the truth.
When my mom did find out, she was ****ed off for everything that I had
originally feared... She was ****ed off that I had told my aunt, she was
****ed off that I didn't come to her myself, she was ****ed off that I was
even there in the first place, yet she had asked me to stop in if I happened
to be close by! I spent the whole evening and next morning worrying about
what my mom would say, as well as I had to sit and listen to my brothers to
beg me not to tell my mom and how I was such a rat. Of course, my mom
denied everything to herself. No, not my brothers - they're perfect little
angels! I was the one who was over there causing trouble, of course.

[Tiffany]

"Moon Shyne" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Here is the situation:
>>
>> daughter is at friends house today. Parents took my daughter, their 2
>> daughters and the oldest daughter's boyfriend to the movies. They were
>> going
>> to shop around after the movie so parent were picking them up 45 minutes
>> after movie is over. Father shows up early though. Father follows them as
>> they go to the back of the theater where there is seclusion and woods.
>> Father watches for a bit as the boy, oldest daughter and my daughters
>> friend
>> take some hits off a pipe. (They were smoking pot) My daughter's friend
>> only
>> took a hit to 'try it' but the others were definitely into smoking it. My
>> daughter said no...... didn't do it. Father backs it up and best friend
>> backed up the story plus my daughter swears on her father's grave. To
>> much
>> time passed for me to be able to tell if she was high. Her eyes were
>> glassy
>> but everyone had been crying. I might go buy a drug test just in
>> case.......
>> just to make sure. Otherwise I have to assume she made a good decision in
>> not smoking. What I am not happy about is that she followed them back
>> into
>> the edge of the woods. Her and her friend both say they didn't know why
>> the
>> sister and boyfriend wanted them to go back. I told S that you don't
>> trust
>> anyone and ever just follow someone somewhere unsafe.
>>
>> So my issue is to punish her for putting herself in that situation where
>> she
>> could have gotten hurt or gotten in legal trouble.
>>
>> Help! I am sitting on this..... truly don't know what to do. I do want to
>> run a drug test and did tell her that is a possibility.
>
> Speaking as the mother of a teenager daughter, the the former stepmother
> of
> (former) teenagers, I'm not sure that punishment is even part of the
> picture:
>
> 1. Rather than going off alone, which would have been substantially less
> safe
> then staying as part of a group, she stayed with the friends with whom she
> was
> supposed to be staying.
> 2. Witnesses all corroborate that she did not do drugs
>
> She made the right decisions, and it seems that you want to punish her
> anyway,
> as well as giving her the message that you don't trust her, her friends,
> or the
> friend's father by forcing her to submit to a drug test.
>
> What sort of message do you think you're sending? The one I'm receiving,
> after
> reading you post is that
>
> 1. You don't trust her
> 2. You don't trust her friends
> 3. You don't trust her friend's parents
> 4. Despite all evidence, you think she's a liar, as are her friends and
> her
> friend's parents.
>
> I can just imagine how my daughter would react - and I wouldn't blame her.
>
> (just my 2 cents)
>
>>


Well, I don't trust her. She is a teenager and she has lied. I will mostly
always doubt her. I believe she didn't do anything last night though only
because of the promise on her father's grave and the father stating he
didn't see her smoke any and he gave it enough time to see who all was going
to hit the pipe. (I imagine me standing there... watching as my kids smoke
pot. I give the dad credit.) I wonder if she didn't smoke but would have.
But that is all IF'S and will go no where.

I did speak to her about the possibility of bad things happening, sneaking
off behind a mall. I told her next time to realize that there is no positive
reason for that. Funny, I also had told her that if it would be more unsafe
to stay alone then it is still best to stay with the crowd but only
realizing that other guys could have been following and so on. We all know
the implications. It could be the first time this came up for her. Who knows
what to do at that point. Now she will have a better concept.

The biggest reason for the drug test...... I told her from day one......
many yrs ago and reinforced the idea regularly..... start hanging out with
friends doing drugs? I ever smell pot on you or think you are high? I will
drug test you in a second. So IF I don't...... then what? She thinks I was
talking out my ass. At the age of 13 what is the biggest reason kids might
say no to drugs or no to doing anything bad? Apparently her issue is fear of
me and being grounded forever.

I see what is written from all...... thanks. No punishment is in order, I
agree. Apparently just being in her friends house for the 4 hours after the
movie was a bit of punishment. Italian mom...... S said she flipped out
worse then I ever have. Then they couldn't get ahold of the boy's mother so
HE was still there. Parents want to kill him but have to look at him on
their couch! Ouch! Plus some truths came out about the older sister so now
the parents can deal with that. I told S's friend, who I will add has become
like my second daughter, that I am upset that she did that but appreciate
that she apologizes to me. She said some interesting things to me. She said
she can't say for sure she will never smoke again. She is curious she said.
I said, give it some time.... a few years atleast. She basically is saying
that she will smoke pot or do other drugs again.She said she will never put
a non-smoker in a bad position again either. I wonder if she said the same
things to her parents? I explained some of the trouble she could get into
legally. I reminded her that if her dad could sneak and follow them, an
employee at the mall could have also. They could have called the cops and
then they would have had criminal charges against them.

Today is my first Sunday off in months so we are just going to enjoy it. No
talk of this today with S. Poor kid..... she had a rough week. Broke up with
boyfriend..... he is going nuts...... back with boyfriend...... then this.
Drama.

Thanks everyone. Please continue with advice or stories..... can help others
in similar situations.

T

[CME]

"xkatx" > wrote in message
news:bvwWd.581300$6l.391834@pd7tw2no...
>
>
> (kind of irrelevant, but...)
> About 2 years ago, my parents went out of town for the weekend. They left
> my brothers at home since it was just a 2 full day and one overnight that
> they would be gone. My mom asked me, if I happened to be around their
> place, to stop in and just check on my brothers, just to make sure that
> the house hadn't burned to the ground or that they didn't lose control
> over the place with people. They were told no parties, and no more than 2
> friends each in the house at one time. (To me, that seemed MORE than
> unreasonable.)
> During the late afternoon, I happened to be out with a friend for a bit,
> and we stopped by my parents place. I had a key at home but didn't bring
> it since I figured they were either home and fine, or out in the middle of
> the afternoon, and there was no reason to go inside.
> As soon as I pulled up, I could see through the curtains that they were
> inside. I knocked on the door. No answer. I could hear murmurs and
> whispering inside, also the sounds of moving around. I knocked again.
> Again, no answer. I banged on the door and opened the mail chute to call
> to them, and let them know I wasn't stupid and knew they were in there. I
> then went next door to the neighbour who had a spare key but she wasn't
> home, so I came back to the door and continued to bang on it another time.
> I opened the mail chute again and started to really look in, and that's
> when I could smell pot in there, and it was really strong and fresh. I
> then went back to the car, grabbed my cell and started calling into the
> house, which, by now, had become still and quiet, yet no one had gone out.
> No answer inside, so since I felt there was cause to be concerned, I
> called my aunt and told her what I knew was going on. I didn't know what
> else to do. She then started calling the house, and finally, after a good
> 10 minutes of banging on the door, my brother fianally answered the door.
> One look at him and I knew exactly what was up, even though I had known
> before the door was opened. There was about 6 kids in the house, but
> really, I didn't care about that as much as anything else. I kicked all
> those kids out, and my aunt asked if I was able to take my brothers over
> to my place until my parents got home the next day. I packed them into
> the car, and talked to my aunt later that night. She said that my mom
> should know about this. I felt I shouldn't bother telling her because no
> matter what, it's a lose-lose situation for me. I tell her, and I knew
> she would get mad at me for causing a big scene, telling my auntie, since
> I honestly didn't know where else to go for advice and help and for not
> minding my own business. If I didn't tell my mom, I also felt that if and
> when she found out, she would be ****ed off at me for not telling her. I
> honestly felt like I was at a loss no matter what. My aunt then said that
> now that she knew about this, she would go directly to my mom and talk to
> her, telling her exactly what I had said. My aunt even talked to both my
> brothers separately and they both lied to her at first, but then they
> realized they were getting nowhere and told her the truth.
> When my mom did find out, she was ****ed off for everything that I had
> originally feared... She was ****ed off that I had told my aunt, she was
> ****ed off that I didn't come to her myself, she was ****ed off that I was
> even there in the first place, yet she had asked me to stop in if I
> happened to be close by! I spent the whole evening and next morning
> worrying about what my mom would say, as well as I had to sit and listen
> to my brothers to beg me not to tell my mom and how I was such a rat. Of
> course, my mom denied everything to herself. No, not my brothers -
> they're perfect little angels! I was the one who was over there causing
> trouble, of course.

Wait. Your Mom was mad at you for doing what she asked you to do, and then
doing what you thought was right? Huh? Who's the adult here? I stand by
my statement that you Mom sounds like a ****. Sorry.

Christine

[xkatx]

"CME" > wrote in message
news:fYIWd.5658$gJ3.846@clgrps13...
>
> "xkatx" > wrote in message
> news:bvwWd.581300$6l.391834@pd7tw2no...
>>
>>
>> (kind of irrelevant, but...)
>> About 2 years ago, my parents went out of town for the weekend. They
>> left my brothers at home since it was just a 2 full day and one overnight
>> that they would be gone. My mom asked me, if I happened to be around
>> their place, to stop in and just check on my brothers, just to make sure
>> that the house hadn't burned to the ground or that they didn't lose
>> control over the place with people. They were told no parties, and no
>> more than 2 friends each in the house at one time. (To me, that seemed
>> MORE than unreasonable.)
>> During the late afternoon, I happened to be out with a friend for a bit,
>> and we stopped by my parents place. I had a key at home but didn't bring
>> it since I figured they were either home and fine, or out in the middle
>> of the afternoon, and there was no reason to go inside.
>> As soon as I pulled up, I could see through the curtains that they were
>> inside. I knocked on the door. No answer. I could hear murmurs and
>> whispering inside, also the sounds of moving around. I knocked again.
>> Again, no answer. I banged on the door and opened the mail chute to call
>> to them, and let them know I wasn't stupid and knew they were in there.
>> I then went next door to the neighbour who had a spare key but she wasn't
>> home, so I came back to the door and continued to bang on it another
>> time. I opened the mail chute again and started to really look in, and
>> that's when I could smell pot in there, and it was really strong and
>> fresh. I then went back to the car, grabbed my cell and started calling
>> into the house, which, by now, had become still and quiet, yet no one had
>> gone out. No answer inside, so since I felt there was cause to be
>> concerned, I called my aunt and told her what I knew was going on. I
>> didn't know what else to do. She then started calling the house, and
>> finally, after a good 10 minutes of banging on the door, my brother
>> fianally answered the door. One look at him and I knew exactly what was
>> up, even though I had known before the door was opened. There was about 6
>> kids in the house, but really, I didn't care about that as much as
>> anything else. I kicked all those kids out, and my aunt asked if I was
>> able to take my brothers over to my place until my parents got home the
>> next day. I packed them into the car, and talked to my aunt later that
>> night. She said that my mom should know about this. I felt I shouldn't
>> bother telling her because no matter what, it's a lose-lose situation for
>> me. I tell her, and I knew she would get mad at me for causing a big
>> scene, telling my auntie, since I honestly didn't know where else to go
>> for advice and help and for not minding my own business. If I didn't
>> tell my mom, I also felt that if and when she found out, she would be
>> ****ed off at me for not telling her. I honestly felt like I was at a
>> loss no matter what. My aunt then said that now that she knew about
>> this, she would go directly to my mom and talk to her, telling her
>> exactly what I had said. My aunt even talked to both my brothers
>> separately and they both lied to her at first, but then they realized
>> they were getting nowhere and told her the truth.
>> When my mom did find out, she was ****ed off for everything that I had
>> originally feared... She was ****ed off that I had told my aunt, she was
>> ****ed off that I didn't come to her myself, she was ****ed off that I
>> was even there in the first place, yet she had asked me to stop in if I
>> happened to be close by! I spent the whole evening and next morning
>> worrying about what my mom would say, as well as I had to sit and listen
>> to my brothers to beg me not to tell my mom and how I was such a rat. Of
>> course, my mom denied everything to herself. No, not my brothers -
>> they're perfect little angels! I was the one who was over there causing
>> trouble, of course.
>
> Wait. Your Mom was mad at you for doing what she asked you to do, and
> then doing what you thought was right? Huh? Who's the adult here? I
> stand by my statement that you Mom sounds like a ****. Sorry.
>
> Christine

Yes, that's one of the toughest things I deal with when it comes to my
parents, mainly my mom. When it comes down to almost everything, my first
thoughts are what is right and wrong. To me, not saying anything to anyone
would have been wrong, yet saying something would also be wrong.
I do love my mom, but yes, for lack of a better word, she is a **** a lot of
the time. I just find that anything that does or could involve her, which
is pretty much everything since she is my mother, there's really no right
thing to do, since no matter what is done has the major potential to be
wrong.

[CME]

"xkatx" > wrote in message
news:FUNWd.588903$8l.448687@pd7tw1no...
>
> "CME" > wrote in message
> news:fYIWd.5658$gJ3.846@clgrps13...
>>
>> "xkatx" > wrote in message
>> news:bvwWd.581300$6l.391834@pd7tw2no...
>>>
>>>
>>> (kind of irrelevant, but...)
>>> About 2 years ago, my parents went out of town for the weekend. They
>>> left my brothers at home since it was just a 2 full day and one
>>> overnight that they would be gone. My mom asked me, if I happened to be
>>> around their place, to stop in and just check on my brothers, just to
>>> make sure that the house hadn't burned to the ground or that they didn't
>>> lose control over the place with people. They were told no parties, and
>>> no more than 2 friends each in the house at one time. (To me, that
>>> seemed MORE than unreasonable.)
>>> During the late afternoon, I happened to be out with a friend for a bit,
>>> and we stopped by my parents place. I had a key at home but didn't
>>> bring it since I figured they were either home and fine, or out in the
>>> middle of the afternoon, and there was no reason to go inside.
>>> As soon as I pulled up, I could see through the curtains that they were
>>> inside. I knocked on the door. No answer. I could hear murmurs and
>>> whispering inside, also the sounds of moving around. I knocked again.
>>> Again, no answer. I banged on the door and opened the mail chute to
>>> call to them, and let them know I wasn't stupid and knew they were in
>>> there. I then went next door to the neighbour who had a spare key but
>>> she wasn't home, so I came back to the door and continued to bang on it
>>> another time. I opened the mail chute again and started to really look
>>> in, and that's when I could smell pot in there, and it was really strong
>>> and fresh. I then went back to the car, grabbed my cell and started
>>> calling into the house, which, by now, had become still and quiet, yet
>>> no one had gone out. No answer inside, so since I felt there was cause
>>> to be concerned, I called my aunt and told her what I knew was going on.
>>> I didn't know what else to do. She then started calling the house, and
>>> finally, after a good 10 minutes of banging on the door, my brother
>>> fianally answered the door. One look at him and I knew exactly what was
>>> up, even though I had known before the door was opened. There was about
>>> 6 kids in the house, but really, I didn't care about that as much as
>>> anything else. I kicked all those kids out, and my aunt asked if I was
>>> able to take my brothers over to my place until my parents got home the
>>> next day. I packed them into the car, and talked to my aunt later that
>>> night. She said that my mom should know about this. I felt I shouldn't
>>> bother telling her because no matter what, it's a lose-lose situation
>>> for me. I tell her, and I knew she would get mad at me for causing a
>>> big scene, telling my auntie, since I honestly didn't know where else to
>>> go for advice and help and for not minding my own business. If I didn't
>>> tell my mom, I also felt that if and when she found out, she would be
>>> ****ed off at me for not telling her. I honestly felt like I was at a
>>> loss no matter what. My aunt then said that now that she knew about
>>> this, she would go directly to my mom and talk to her, telling her
>>> exactly what I had said. My aunt even talked to both my brothers
>>> separately and they both lied to her at first, but then they realized
>>> they were getting nowhere and told her the truth.
>>> When my mom did find out, she was ****ed off for everything that I had
>>> originally feared... She was ****ed off that I had told my aunt, she was
>>> ****ed off that I didn't come to her myself, she was ****ed off that I
>>> was even there in the first place, yet she had asked me to stop in if I
>>> happened to be close by! I spent the whole evening and next morning
>>> worrying about what my mom would say, as well as I had to sit and listen
>>> to my brothers to beg me not to tell my mom and how I was such a rat.
>>> Of course, my mom denied everything to herself. No, not my brothers -
>>> they're perfect little angels! I was the one who was over there causing
>>> trouble, of course.
>>
>> Wait. Your Mom was mad at you for doing what she asked you to do, and
>> then doing what you thought was right? Huh? Who's the adult here? I
>> stand by my statement that you Mom sounds like a ****. Sorry.
>>
>> Christine
>
> Yes, that's one of the toughest things I deal with when it comes to my
> parents, mainly my mom. When it comes down to almost everything, my first
> thoughts are what is right and wrong. To me, not saying anything to
> anyone would have been wrong, yet saying something would also be wrong.
> I do love my mom, but yes, for lack of a better word, she is a **** a lot
> of the time. I just find that anything that does or could involve her,
> which is pretty much everything since she is my mother, there's really no
> right thing to do, since no matter what is done has the major potential to
> be wrong.

That must be so difficult and stressful for you Kat. :( My cousin is going
through a similar experience, she recently found out she was pregnant (she's
4 months now) and she hasn't spoken to my Aunt in over a year. Not her
doing, just more her mother being completely unaccepting of her own life
choices. I hope I never get to that point that I'd be willing to alienate
my children just because I don't agree with their not being married or
something just as trivial. No matter what, I think you should be there to
love and support your children, not judge.

Christine

[xkatx]

"CME" > wrote in message
news:hkSWd.9763$gJ3.2495@clgrps13...
>
> "xkatx" > wrote in message
> news:FUNWd.588903$8l.448687@pd7tw1no...
>>
>> "CME" > wrote in message
>> news:fYIWd.5658$gJ3.846@clgrps13...
>>>
>>> "xkatx" > wrote in message
>>> news:bvwWd.581300$6l.391834@pd7tw2no...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (kind of irrelevant, but...)
>>>> About 2 years ago, my parents went out of town for the weekend. They
>>>> left my brothers at home since it was just a 2 full day and one
>>>> overnight that they would be gone. My mom asked me, if I happened to
>>>> be around their place, to stop in and just check on my brothers, just
>>>> to make sure that the house hadn't burned to the ground or that they
>>>> didn't lose control over the place with people. They were told no
>>>> parties, and no more than 2 friends each in the house at one time. (To
>>>> me, that seemed MORE than unreasonable.)
>>>> During the late afternoon, I happened to be out with a friend for a
>>>> bit, and we stopped by my parents place. I had a key at home but
>>>> didn't bring it since I figured they were either home and fine, or out
>>>> in the middle of the afternoon, and there was no reason to go inside.
>>>> As soon as I pulled up, I could see through the curtains that they were
>>>> inside. I knocked on the door. No answer. I could hear murmurs and
>>>> whispering inside, also the sounds of moving around. I knocked again.
>>>> Again, no answer. I banged on the door and opened the mail chute to
>>>> call to them, and let them know I wasn't stupid and knew they were in
>>>> there. I then went next door to the neighbour who had a spare key but
>>>> she wasn't home, so I came back to the door and continued to bang on it
>>>> another time. I opened the mail chute again and started to really look
>>>> in, and that's when I could smell pot in there, and it was really
>>>> strong and fresh. I then went back to the car, grabbed my cell and
>>>> started calling into the house, which, by now, had become still and
>>>> quiet, yet no one had gone out. No answer inside, so since I felt there
>>>> was cause to be concerned, I called my aunt and told her what I knew
>>>> was going on. I didn't know what else to do. She then started calling
>>>> the house, and finally, after a good 10 minutes of banging on the door,
>>>> my brother fianally answered the door. One look at him and I knew
>>>> exactly what was up, even though I had known before the door was
>>>> opened. There was about 6 kids in the house, but really, I didn't care
>>>> about that as much as anything else. I kicked all those kids out, and
>>>> my aunt asked if I was able to take my brothers over to my place until
>>>> my parents got home the next day. I packed them into the car, and
>>>> talked to my aunt later that night. She said that my mom should know
>>>> about this. I felt I shouldn't bother telling her because no matter
>>>> what, it's a lose-lose situation for me. I tell her, and I knew she
>>>> would get mad at me for causing a big scene, telling my auntie, since I
>>>> honestly didn't know where else to go for advice and help and for not
>>>> minding my own business. If I didn't tell my mom, I also felt that if
>>>> and when she found out, she would be ****ed off at me for not telling
>>>> her. I honestly felt like I was at a loss no matter what. My aunt
>>>> then said that now that she knew about this, she would go directly to
>>>> my mom and talk to her, telling her exactly what I had said. My aunt
>>>> even talked to both my brothers separately and they both lied to her at
>>>> first, but then they realized they were getting nowhere and told her
>>>> the truth.
>>>> When my mom did find out, she was ****ed off for everything that I had
>>>> originally feared... She was ****ed off that I had told my aunt, she
>>>> was ****ed off that I didn't come to her myself, she was ****ed off
>>>> that I was even there in the first place, yet she had asked me to stop
>>>> in if I happened to be close by! I spent the whole evening and next
>>>> morning worrying about what my mom would say, as well as I had to sit
>>>> and listen to my brothers to beg me not to tell my mom and how I was
>>>> such a rat. Of course, my mom denied everything to herself. No, not my
>>>> brothers - they're perfect little angels! I was the one who was over
>>>> there causing trouble, of course.
>>>
>>> Wait. Your Mom was mad at you for doing what she asked you to do, and
>>> then doing what you thought was right? Huh? Who's the adult here? I
>>> stand by my statement that you Mom sounds like a ****. Sorry.
>>>
>>> Christine
>>
>> Yes, that's one of the toughest things I deal with when it comes to my
>> parents, mainly my mom. When it comes down to almost everything, my
>> first thoughts are what is right and wrong. To me, not saying anything
>> to anyone would have been wrong, yet saying something would also be
>> wrong.
>> I do love my mom, but yes, for lack of a better word, she is a **** a lot
>> of the time. I just find that anything that does or could involve her,
>> which is pretty much everything since she is my mother, there's really no
>> right thing to do, since no matter what is done has the major potential
>> to be wrong.
>
> That must be so difficult and stressful for you Kat. :( My cousin is
> going through a similar experience, she recently found out she was
> pregnant (she's 4 months now) and she hasn't spoken to my Aunt in over a
> year. Not her doing, just more her mother being completely unaccepting of
> her own life choices. I hope I never get to that point that I'd be
> willing to alienate my children just because I don't agree with their not
> being married or something just as trivial. No matter what, I think you
> should be there to love and support your children, not judge.
>
> Christine

Well, right now, everything seems to be so stressful, even something as
silly as doing the dishes or walking up the stairs.
I know my mom just doesn't like that she feels I don't have my life in
order. Maybe she is right. I do live on my own, and it's kind of sad that
it's in sub-housing, but, really, this is definitely the way, and most
likely the only way, that I will be able to actually get ahead. I know it
could be worse. I know my mom would rather not have me living at home,
living off her, with (a) child/ren, not doing anything, or I could be a
complete deadbeat and not do anything at all. I'm not living on the
streets, no one's going hungry or walking around with dirty, ripped, ratty
and inadequate clothing. I don't see what I'm doing wrong by making the
best life I can.
We still do talk, she invites us over for dinner usually every Sunday, I
invite them over if they don't have hockey or something every now and then,
even tonight, B and I took off to watch half of my brother's hockey game. I
know she does love and support me/us, but as far as the judging goes, I feel
she is constantly doing that, and maybe she's not doing it intentionally (or
maybe she is?) I still see and feel it anyways.
I also know I would never want to see myself judging my own children, as
well, under any circumstance. I hope I can always support and show it, and
love my children no matter who or what they are. If I feel they're having
problems, I'd much rather support in a good way than a bad, and if I see
they're doing well, I'd rather support that as well.

[V]

"Tiffany" > wrote in message
...
> Here is the situation:
>
> daughter is at friends house today. Parents took my daughter, their 2
> daughters and the oldest daughter's boyfriend to the movies. They were
> going to shop around after the movie so parent were picking them up 45
> minutes after movie is over. Father shows up early though. Father follows
> them as they go to the back of the theater where there is seclusion and
> woods. Father watches for a bit as the boy, oldest daughter and my
> daughters friend take some hits off a pipe. (They were smoking pot) My
> daughter's friend only took a hit to 'try it' but the others were
> definitely into smoking it. My daughter said no...... didn't do it. Father
> backs it up and best friend backed up the story plus my daughter swears on
> her father's grave. To much time passed for me to be able to tell if she
> was high. Her eyes were glassy but everyone had been crying. I might go
> buy a drug test just in case....... just to make sure. Otherwise I have to
> assume she made a good decision in not smoking. What I am not happy about
> is that she followed them back into the edge of the woods. Her and her
> friend both say they didn't know why the sister and boyfriend wanted them
> to go back. I told S that you don't trust anyone and ever just follow
> someone somewhere unsafe.
>
> So my issue is to punish her for putting herself in that situation where
> she could have gotten hurt or gotten in legal trouble.
>
> Help! I am sitting on this..... truly don't know what to do. I do want to
> run a drug test and did tell her that is a possibility.
>
> T
>
CHINS or PINS.
V

[CME]

"xkatx" > wrote in message
news:BBSWd.589269$Xk.454974@pd7tw3no...

<snip>

> Well, right now, everything seems to be so stressful, even something as
> silly as doing the dishes or walking up the stairs.
> I know my mom just doesn't like that she feels I don't have my life in
> order. Maybe she is right. I do live on my own, and it's kind of sad
> that it's in sub-housing, but, really, this is definitely the way, and
> most likely the only way, that I will be able to actually get ahead. I
> know it could be worse. I know my mom would rather not have me living at
> home, living off her, with (a) child/ren, not doing anything, or I could
> be a complete deadbeat and not do anything at all. I'm not living on the
> streets, no one's going hungry or walking around with dirty, ripped, ratty
> and inadequate clothing. I don't see what I'm doing wrong by making the
> best life I can.
> We still do talk, she invites us over for dinner usually every Sunday, I
> invite them over if they don't have hockey or something every now and
> then, even tonight, B and I took off to watch half of my brother's hockey
> game. I know she does love and support me/us, but as far as the judging
> goes, I feel she is constantly doing that, and maybe she's not doing it
> intentionally (or maybe she is?) I still see and feel it anyways.
> I also know I would never want to see myself judging my own children, as
> well, under any circumstance. I hope I can always support and show it,
> and love my children no matter who or what they are. If I feel they're
> having problems, I'd much rather support in a good way than a bad, and if
> I see they're doing well, I'd rather support that as well.

Well I just got back from Cuba on Sunday. I was there for work/pleasure and
the only thing my Mom had to say when I got back was I'm a horrible mother.
How could I leave my children with a mediocre babysitter for a whole week?
SHE never did anything like that, blah blah blah. You know what? I haven't
had a vacation in 9 years, I think I'm ****ing entitled to a goddamn break
and yes it's bloody sad that I have to rely on a STRANGER to care for my
children because my Mom is such a ****ty grandmother. Like wtf?! I
realized my Mother is a toxic vat of liquid jealousy and I can't let it get
to me but it's really hard when your own Mother is like that. My parents
sent me to my grandmothers for a week every year, not to mention I went to
my Uncle's for a week to Calgary AND I had summer camp. I guess that
doesn't count? Oh btw when I came home my house was clean, the children
were well fed, clean and happy and I talked to them daily. Christ she even
did all my laundry, got them to school on time every day, made them a lunch
and didn't even yell at them. The woman was a better mother to them than I
am! lol But I'm a bad person for wanting to give my kids a better life???
I really hate her sometimes. :(

/end rant.

Christine
(In need of adoption)

[V]

"CME" > wrote in message
news:P2RZd.37834$ZO2.13387@edtnps84...
>
> "xkatx" > wrote in message
> news:BBSWd.589269$Xk.454974@pd7tw3no...
>
> <snip>
>
>> Well, right now, everything seems to be so stressful, even something as
>> silly as doing the dishes or walking up the stairs.
>> I know my mom just doesn't like that she feels I don't have my life in
>> order. Maybe she is right. I do live on my own, and it's kind of sad
>> that it's in sub-housing, but, really, this is definitely the way, and
>> most likely the only way, that I will be able to actually get ahead. I
>> know it could be worse. I know my mom would rather not have me living at
>> home, living off her, with (a) child/ren, not doing anything, or I could
>> be a complete deadbeat and not do anything at all. I'm not living on the
>> streets, no one's going hungry or walking around with dirty, ripped,
>> ratty and inadequate clothing. I don't see what I'm doing wrong by
>> making the best life I can.
>> We still do talk, she invites us over for dinner usually every Sunday, I
>> invite them over if they don't have hockey or something every now and
>> then, even tonight, B and I took off to watch half of my brother's hockey
>> game. I know she does love and support me/us, but as far as the judging
>> goes, I feel she is constantly doing that, and maybe she's not doing it
>> intentionally (or maybe she is?) I still see and feel it anyways.
>> I also know I would never want to see myself judging my own children, as
>> well, under any circumstance. I hope I can always support and show it,
>> and love my children no matter who or what they are. If I feel they're
>> having problems, I'd much rather support in a good way than a bad, and if
>> I see they're doing well, I'd rather support that as well.
>
> Well I just got back from Cuba on Sunday. I was there for work/pleasure
> and the only thing my Mom had to say when I got back was I'm a horrible
> mother. How could I leave my children with a mediocre babysitter for a
> whole week? SHE never did anything like that, blah blah blah. You know
> what? I haven't had a vacation in 9 years, I think I'm ****ing entitled
> to a goddamn break and yes it's bloody sad that I have to rely on a
> STRANGER to care for my children because my Mom is such a ****ty
> grandmother. Like wtf?! I realized my Mother is a toxic vat of liquid
> jealousy and I can't let it get to me but it's really hard when your own
> Mother is like that. My parents sent me to my grandmothers for a week
> every year, not to mention I went to my Uncle's for a week to Calgary AND
> I had summer camp. I guess that doesn't count? Oh btw when I came home
> my house was clean, the children were well fed, clean and happy and I
> talked to them daily. Christ she even did all my laundry, got them to
> school on time every day, made them a lunch and didn't even yell at them.
> The woman was a better mother to them than I am! lol But I'm a bad person
> for wanting to give my kids a better life??? I really hate her sometimes.
> :(
>
> /end rant.
>
> Christine
> (In need of adoption)


You can borrow my mom...she will nag you about your clothes, tho...just be
prepared.
V
>

[CME]

"V" > wrote in message
...
>
> "CME" > wrote in message
> news:P2RZd.37834$ZO2.13387@edtnps84...
>>
>> "xkatx" > wrote in message
>> news:BBSWd.589269$Xk.454974@pd7tw3no...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Well, right now, everything seems to be so stressful, even something as
>>> silly as doing the dishes or walking up the stairs.
>>> I know my mom just doesn't like that she feels I don't have my life in
>>> order. Maybe she is right. I do live on my own, and it's kind of sad
>>> that it's in sub-housing, but, really, this is definitely the way, and
>>> most likely the only way, that I will be able to actually get ahead. I
>>> know it could be worse. I know my mom would rather not have me living
>>> at home, living off her, with (a) child/ren, not doing anything, or I
>>> could be a complete deadbeat and not do anything at all. I'm not living
>>> on the streets, no one's going hungry or walking around with dirty,
>>> ripped, ratty and inadequate clothing. I don't see what I'm doing wrong
>>> by making the best life I can.
>>> We still do talk, she invites us over for dinner usually every Sunday, I
>>> invite them over if they don't have hockey or something every now and
>>> then, even tonight, B and I took off to watch half of my brother's
>>> hockey game. I know she does love and support me/us, but as far as the
>>> judging goes, I feel she is constantly doing that, and maybe she's not
>>> doing it intentionally (or maybe she is?) I still see and feel it
>>> anyways.
>>> I also know I would never want to see myself judging my own children, as
>>> well, under any circumstance. I hope I can always support and show it,
>>> and love my children no matter who or what they are. If I feel they're
>>> having problems, I'd much rather support in a good way than a bad, and
>>> if I see they're doing well, I'd rather support that as well.
>>
>> Well I just got back from Cuba on Sunday. I was there for work/pleasure
>> and the only thing my Mom had to say when I got back was I'm a horrible
>> mother. How could I leave my children with a mediocre babysitter for a
>> whole week? SHE never did anything like that, blah blah blah. You know
>> what? I haven't had a vacation in 9 years, I think I'm ****ing entitled
>> to a goddamn break and yes it's bloody sad that I have to rely on a
>> STRANGER to care for my children because my Mom is such a ****ty
>> grandmother. Like wtf?! I realized my Mother is a toxic vat of liquid
>> jealousy and I can't let it get to me but it's really hard when your own
>> Mother is like that. My parents sent me to my grandmothers for a week
>> every year, not to mention I went to my Uncle's for a week to Calgary AND
>> I had summer camp. I guess that doesn't count? Oh btw when I came home
>> my house was clean, the children were well fed, clean and happy and I
>> talked to them daily. Christ she even did all my laundry, got them to
>> school on time every day, made them a lunch and didn't even yell at them.
>> The woman was a better mother to them than I am! lol But I'm a bad
>> person for wanting to give my kids a better life??? I really hate her
>> sometimes. :(
>>
>> /end rant.
>>
>> Christine
>> (In need of adoption)
>
>
> You can borrow my mom...she will nag you about your clothes, tho...just be
> prepared.
> V

I'll take that over insults and judgements anyday. ;) Actually I received a
letter from her this morning and I was so disturbed by what she wrote I felt
like cutting her out of my life completely. She can spend time with the
boys, but as for me, I'd rather limit my contact with a soul sucker. I said
as much and suddenly got a response that was apologetic because she jumped
to conclusions and just wants the best for me yadda yadda. How about
thinking before you speak? Granted I'm blunt and I say what I feel without
really thinking but I'm never deliberately hurtful to a loved one. Thank
God for therapy because had I not dealt with this behaviour from her years
ago, I would be crushed. I'm hurt but at least I can move past it.

Christine

[V]

"CME" > wrote in message
news:P_4_d.60283$gJ3.58905@clgrps13...
>
> "V" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "CME" > wrote in message
>> news:P2RZd.37834$ZO2.13387@edtnps84...
>>>
>>> "xkatx" > wrote in message
>>> news:BBSWd.589269$Xk.454974@pd7tw3no...
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Well, right now, everything seems to be so stressful, even something as
>>>> silly as doing the dishes or walking up the stairs.
>>>> I know my mom just doesn't like that she feels I don't have my life in
>>>> order. Maybe she is right. I do live on my own, and it's kind of sad
>>>> that it's in sub-housing, but, really, this is definitely the way, and
>>>> most likely the only way, that I will be able to actually get ahead. I
>>>> know it could be worse. I know my mom would rather not have me living
>>>> at home, living off her, with (a) child/ren, not doing anything, or I
>>>> could be a complete deadbeat and not do anything at all. I'm not
>>>> living on the streets, no one's going hungry or walking around with
>>>> dirty, ripped, ratty and inadequate clothing. I don't see what I'm
>>>> doing wrong by making the best life I can.
>>>> We still do talk, she invites us over for dinner usually every Sunday,
>>>> I invite them over if they don't have hockey or something every now and
>>>> then, even tonight, B and I took off to watch half of my brother's
>>>> hockey game. I know she does love and support me/us, but as far as the
>>>> judging goes, I feel she is constantly doing that, and maybe she's not
>>>> doing it intentionally (or maybe she is?) I still see and feel it
>>>> anyways.
>>>> I also know I would never want to see myself judging my own children,
>>>> as well, under any circumstance. I hope I can always support and show
>>>> it, and love my children no matter who or what they are. If I feel
>>>> they're having problems, I'd much rather support in a good way than a
>>>> bad, and if I see they're doing well, I'd rather support that as well.
>>>
>>> Well I just got back from Cuba on Sunday. I was there for work/pleasure
>>> and the only thing my Mom had to say when I got back was I'm a horrible
>>> mother. How could I leave my children with a mediocre babysitter for a
>>> whole week? SHE never did anything like that, blah blah blah. You know
>>> what? I haven't had a vacation in 9 years, I think I'm ****ing entitled
>>> to a goddamn break and yes it's bloody sad that I have to rely on a
>>> STRANGER to care for my children because my Mom is such a ****ty
>>> grandmother. Like wtf?! I realized my Mother is a toxic vat of liquid
>>> jealousy and I can't let it get to me but it's really hard when your own
>>> Mother is like that. My parents sent me to my grandmothers for a week
>>> every year, not to mention I went to my Uncle's for a week to Calgary
>>> AND I had summer camp. I guess that doesn't count? Oh btw when I came
>>> home my house was clean, the children were well fed, clean and happy and
>>> I talked to them daily. Christ she even did all my laundry, got them to
>>> school on time every day, made them a lunch and didn't even yell at
>>> them. The woman was a better mother to them than I am! lol But I'm a
>>> bad person for wanting to give my kids a better life??? I really hate
>>> her sometimes. :(
>>>
>>> /end rant.
>>>
>>> Christine
>>> (In need of adoption)
>>
>>
>> You can borrow my mom...she will nag you about your clothes, tho...just
>> be prepared.
>> V
>
> I'll take that over insults and judgements anyday. ;) Actually I received
> a letter from her this morning and I was so disturbed by what she wrote I
> felt like cutting her out of my life completely. She can spend time with
> the boys, but as for me, I'd rather limit my contact with a soul sucker.
> I said as much and suddenly got a response that was apologetic because she
> jumped to conclusions and just wants the best for me yadda yadda. How
> about thinking before you speak? Granted I'm blunt and I say what I feel
> without really thinking but I'm never deliberately hurtful to a loved one.
> Thank God for therapy because had I not dealt with this behaviour from her
> years ago, I would be crushed. I'm hurt but at least I can move past it.
>
> Christine
>

Amen on the therapy!
Whoo hoo. The whole world needs therapy.
V

[Cele]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:15:59 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:


>Well I just got back from Cuba on Sunday. I was there for work/pleasure and
>the only thing my Mom had to say when I got back was I'm a horrible mother.
>How could I leave my children with a mediocre babysitter for a whole week?
>SHE never did anything like that, blah blah blah.

Ah, Christine, if *you* know you left your kids with someone who took
good care of them, this is clearly about her, not you. But you knew
that. :-(

> You know what? I haven't
>had a vacation in 9 years, I think I'm ****ing entitled to a goddamn break
>and yes it's bloody sad that I have to rely on a STRANGER to care for my
>children because my Mom is such a ****ty grandmother. Like wtf?!

You *are* entitled to a break assuming your kids are properly cared
for, and I'm sure they were.

>I realized my Mother is a toxic vat of liquid jealousy and I can't let it get
>to me but it's really hard when your own Mother is like that. My parents
>sent me to my grandmothers for a week every year, not to mention I went to
>my Uncle's for a week to Calgary AND I had summer camp. I guess that
>doesn't count? Oh btw when I came home my house was clean, the children
>were well fed, clean and happy and I talked to them daily. Christ she even
>did all my laundry, got them to school on time every day, made them a lunch
>and didn't even yell at them. The woman was a better mother to them than I
>am! lol But I'm a bad person for wanting to give my kids a better life???
>I really hate her sometimes. :(
>
>/end rant.

Ah, blech.

If it helps at all, I have a few mother issues of my own. :-) It may
be that most of us do, or it may be that the generation that had many
of us is a generation in which women were led to believe right from
birth that the one true role for them was motherhood. I know that my
mother has openly acknowledged that she wasn't particularly eager to
be a parent and doesn't especially care for kids - but I think it was
kind of a given for a whole era of women. So now, we've got lots of
women parenting adult children who might well have chosen, had they
been born later, not to have kids at all. And to be fair, I don't
suppose it's easy for them either.

That said, I know my mother loves me but sometimes I don't much care
for how she does it. She's certainly not the way you describe your
mom, however, because my sister was mentally ill and then killed
herself, I was pretty much left to fend for myself from a very early
age, and expected to have no needs. On the bright side, that made me
spectacularly self sufficient. On the not-so-bright side, I could've
stood more nurturing at any point. Now, my mother says and does things
that leave me just shaking my head at their insensitivity, but they're
clearly about *her* so I'm pretty good at not taking them personally.
What I *do* tend to take to heart, although I know full well I
shouldn't, is her extreme, gross favouritism with respect to my
children. She blatantly, I mean *blatantly*, favours one over the
other, and will give that one gifts right in front of the other one.
She sent one to Mexico this Christmas with her boyfriend, and the
other one got $75. Stuff like that gets me pretty over the edge, but I
know that it's a lost cause; my mother just doesn't 'get' it.
Naturally, the non-favoured child has little use for her.
Interestingly, the favoured child, whom we call 'the annointed one',
isn't happy about it either, and runs interference for her sister all
the time. As they're both practically adults I try to limit my
involvement to emotional damage control, but it ****es me off. And
it's not fixable. My mother hasn't got a clue. She's one of those
people who thinks she's subtle, and who is roughly as subtle as a star
going supernova.

Still, she did her best as a mother, if not as a grandmother, and even
though her best wasn't great, I guess it was what she had. I resent
her poor grandparenting greatly, but accept that she loved me despite
what she may have lacked as a parent. I hope that I will have a better
record with my own kids in years to come, but of course, who knows
what they'll resent down the line? Like our parents, all we can do is
our best, I guess.

Anyway. I hope at least you had a supportive dad?

>Christine
>(In need of adoption)

Can you get adopted as an adult in Alberta? You can't in BC - I know
this, 'cause my stepdad and I looked into it, since he was more a
father to me than my own. You can in the Yukon, but you both have to
live there.

I know you were joking, BTW. Just threw that in anyway. LOL

Take care.

Cele

[Cele]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:23:59 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

>> You can borrow my mom...she will nag you about your clothes, tho...just be
>> prepared.
>> V
>
>I'll take that over insults and judgements anyday. ;) Actually I received a
>letter from her this morning and I was so disturbed by what she wrote I felt
>like cutting her out of my life completely. She can spend time with the
>boys, but as for me, I'd rather limit my contact with a soul sucker.

Speaking as one who had nothing to do with my father, for very good
reasons, for twenty years, I'd recommend against a complete break. I
resumed speaking with my father over the telephone about eighteen
months before he died, but we never did actually see each other during
that time. I don't regret anything, especially, because I'm
comfortable with my choices and reasons for them, but I'm also glad I
did have that time talking with him before his death if for no other
reason than because it put to rest any doubts I might have had about
who he was, the choices I made and the way things turned out. So, as
you never know when they're going to die and can't guarantee that
you'll sort out any old business (mine went out to walk the dog,
apparently perfectly healthy, and dropped like a stone from a massive
coronary at only 68), for your own sake, I'd recommend at least
limited contact. For whatever that may be worth.

> I said
>as much and suddenly got a response that was apologetic because she jumped
>to conclusions and just wants the best for me yadda yadda. How about
>thinking before you speak? Granted I'm blunt and I say what I feel without
>really thinking but I'm never deliberately hurtful to a loved one.

Maybe she's not either. Maybe, as you said, she doesn't think before
she speaks. Maybe she's really as clueless as she seems. Not, you
understand, that I'm making excuses for her, but more that I know my
own mother has absolutely *no idea* how she comes across sometimes,
and I very much doubt she's the only one.

Here's the kicker: My mother, before her retirement, was a social
worker!

Of course, the problem with people who are clueless and who are
supposed to love us, is that the unvarnished honesty can be more
painful than it would be if it was a deliberate attempt to hurt. Then
again, honesty has a lot of sides, and maybe she's an honest but half
empty glass sort of person, who can't see the good before her eyes.
That's sadder for her, even, than it is for you. But it sucks for you,
too. :-(

>Thank
>God for therapy because had I not dealt with this behaviour from her years
>ago, I would be crushed. I'm hurt but at least I can move past it.

I'm glad you can. It's hard to do - you must've learned a lot already.
Took me *ages* to get to that place around some things. More power to
you!

Cele

[CME]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:15:59 GMT, "CME" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Well I just got back from Cuba on Sunday. I was there for work/pleasure
>>and
>>the only thing my Mom had to say when I got back was I'm a horrible
>>mother.
>>How could I leave my children with a mediocre babysitter for a whole week?
>>SHE never did anything like that, blah blah blah.
>
> Ah, Christine, if *you* know you left your kids with someone who took
> good care of them, this is clearly about her, not you. But you knew
> that. :-(
>
>> You know what? I haven't
>>had a vacation in 9 years, I think I'm ****ing entitled to a goddamn break
>>and yes it's bloody sad that I have to rely on a STRANGER to care for my
>>children because my Mom is such a ****ty grandmother. Like wtf?!
>
> You *are* entitled to a break assuming your kids are properly cared
> for, and I'm sure they were.
>
>>I realized my Mother is a toxic vat of liquid jealousy and I can't let it
>>get
>>to me but it's really hard when your own Mother is like that. My parents
>>sent me to my grandmothers for a week every year, not to mention I went to
>>my Uncle's for a week to Calgary AND I had summer camp. I guess that
>>doesn't count? Oh btw when I came home my house was clean, the children
>>were well fed, clean and happy and I talked to them daily. Christ she
>>even
>>did all my laundry, got them to school on time every day, made them a
>>lunch
>>and didn't even yell at them. The woman was a better mother to them than
>>I
>>am! lol But I'm a bad person for wanting to give my kids a better life???
>>I really hate her sometimes. :(
>>
>>/end rant.
>
> Ah, blech.
>
> If it helps at all, I have a few mother issues of my own. :-) It may
> be that most of us do, or it may be that the generation that had many
> of us is a generation in which women were led to believe right from
> birth that the one true role for them was motherhood. I know that my
> mother has openly acknowledged that she wasn't particularly eager to
> be a parent and doesn't especially care for kids - but I think it was
> kind of a given for a whole era of women. So now, we've got lots of
> women parenting adult children who might well have chosen, had they
> been born later, not to have kids at all. And to be fair, I don't
> suppose it's easy for them either.
>
> That said, I know my mother loves me but sometimes I don't much care
> for how she does it. She's certainly not the way you describe your
> mom, however, because my sister was mentally ill and then killed
> herself, I was pretty much left to fend for myself from a very early
> age, and expected to have no needs. On the bright side, that made me
> spectacularly self sufficient. On the not-so-bright side, I could've
> stood more nurturing at any point. Now, my mother says and does things
> that leave me just shaking my head at their insensitivity, but they're
> clearly about *her* so I'm pretty good at not taking them personally.
> What I *do* tend to take to heart, although I know full well I
> shouldn't, is her extreme, gross favouritism with respect to my
> children. She blatantly, I mean *blatantly*, favours one over the
> other, and will give that one gifts right in front of the other one.
> She sent one to Mexico this Christmas with her boyfriend, and the
> other one got $75. Stuff like that gets me pretty over the edge, but I
> know that it's a lost cause; my mother just doesn't 'get' it.
> Naturally, the non-favoured child has little use for her.
> Interestingly, the favoured child, whom we call 'the annointed one',
> isn't happy about it either, and runs interference for her sister all
> the time. As they're both practically adults I try to limit my
> involvement to emotional damage control, but it ****es me off. And
> it's not fixable. My mother hasn't got a clue. She's one of those
> people who thinks she's subtle, and who is roughly as subtle as a star
> going supernova.
>
> Still, she did her best as a mother, if not as a grandmother, and even
> though her best wasn't great, I guess it was what she had. I resent
> her poor grandparenting greatly, but accept that she loved me despite
> what she may have lacked as a parent. I hope that I will have a better
> record with my own kids in years to come, but of course, who knows
> what they'll resent down the line? Like our parents, all we can do is
> our best, I guess.
>
> Anyway. I hope at least you had a supportive dad?
>
>>Christine
>>(In need of adoption)
>
> Can you get adopted as an adult in Alberta? You can't in BC - I know
> this, 'cause my stepdad and I looked into it, since he was more a
> father to me than my own. You can in the Yukon, but you both have to
> live there.
>
> I know you were joking, BTW. Just threw that in anyway. LOL
>
> Take care.
>
> Cele

Thanks for sharing, it really helped. For the most part, I tend to avoid
any real closeness with my Mom because I know we're just two different
people but I was shocked she's still treating me like I'm 15 years old and
calling me a loser. That's harsh to grow up with and is something that will
stick with me for the rest of my life. To have it repeated at this point in
my life is something I'm just flabbergasted at. I feel like the last 10
years have been a lie if that's what she really thinks, you know? My other
family is pretty disappointed yet aren't all that surprised either. At
least I have their support, for that I'm thankful.

Christine

[Cele]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:46:26 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

>Thanks for sharing, it really helped.

Glad if it did - I hoped I wasn't putting in my nose where it wasn't
wanted. :-)

>For the most part, I tend to avoid
>any real closeness with my Mom because I know we're just two different
>people but I was shocked she's still treating me like I'm 15 years old and
>calling me a loser.

But, see, Christine, call me crazy, but I wouldn't call a 15 year old
a loser *either*. I don't think that's a way to treat *anybody*. And
I'm sorry she's comfortable calling you that. I'd avoid closeness too,
with *anybody* who spoke to me like that.

>That's harsh to grow up with and is something that will
>stick with me for the rest of my life.

No doubt. :-(

>To have it repeated at this point in
>my life is something I'm just flabbergasted at. I feel like the last 10
>years have been a lie if that's what she really thinks, you know?

It's probably more what comes out of her mouth. Some people don't so
much say what they really think, as not think much at all. Some people
seem to be reflexively mean and not even realise they're doing it. I
know for sure, that'd hurt me and pretty much everyone I know.

> My other
>family is pretty disappointed yet aren't all that surprised either. At
>least I have their support, for that I'm thankful.

I'm glad to hear it. You've always seemed like a very decent person
here, in the only place I know you. 'Course, when I meet you in
Edmonton, and find out about your Medusa head and evil eye, maybe I
might feel differently.....

LMAO

Cele

[CME]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 01:23:59 GMT, "CME" >
> wrote:
>
>>> You can borrow my mom...she will nag you about your clothes, tho...just
>>> be
>>> prepared.
>>> V
>>
>>I'll take that over insults and judgements anyday. ;) Actually I received
>>a
>>letter from her this morning and I was so disturbed by what she wrote I
>>felt
>>like cutting her out of my life completely. She can spend time with the
>>boys, but as for me, I'd rather limit my contact with a soul sucker.
>
> Speaking as one who had nothing to do with my father, for very good
> reasons, for twenty years, I'd recommend against a complete break. I
> resumed speaking with my father over the telephone about eighteen
> months before he died, but we never did actually see each other during
> that time. I don't regret anything, especially, because I'm
> comfortable with my choices and reasons for them, but I'm also glad I
> did have that time talking with him before his death if for no other
> reason than because it put to rest any doubts I might have had about
> who he was, the choices I made and the way things turned out. So, as
> you never know when they're going to die and can't guarantee that
> you'll sort out any old business (mine went out to walk the dog,
> apparently perfectly healthy, and dropped like a stone from a massive
> coronary at only 68), for your own sake, I'd recommend at least
> limited contact. For whatever that may be worth.
>

Yeah I can't cut her out completely, my children still need grandparents
even though I may be having problems with them. She's done a complete 180
though but that doesn't excuse what she said and I'm tired of having to deal
with this stuff every couple of years when I do something she may not agree
with. Example: Going to University. My parents wanted me to get out into
the work force and make something of myself because working hard and paying
dues are important to them. My value system is I want better for myself and
my children. I want to wake up in the morning and like what I do and if it
takes me 4-5 years of schooling to accomplish that, then that's my choice.
But I'm a leech on society because I had to take out loans to do so, I guess
having to pay them back doesn't count? lol

>> I said
>>as much and suddenly got a response that was apologetic because she jumped
>>to conclusions and just wants the best for me yadda yadda. How about
>>thinking before you speak? Granted I'm blunt and I say what I feel
>>without
>>really thinking but I'm never deliberately hurtful to a loved one.
>
> Maybe she's not either. Maybe, as you said, she doesn't think before
> she speaks. Maybe she's really as clueless as she seems. Not, you
> understand, that I'm making excuses for her, but more that I know my
> own mother has absolutely *no idea* how she comes across sometimes,
> and I very much doubt she's the only one.
>
> Here's the kicker: My mother, before her retirement, was a social
> worker!
>
> Of course, the problem with people who are clueless and who are
> supposed to love us, is that the unvarnished honesty can be more
> painful than it would be if it was a deliberate attempt to hurt. Then
> again, honesty has a lot of sides, and maybe she's an honest but half
> empty glass sort of person, who can't see the good before her eyes.
> That's sadder for her, even, than it is for you. But it sucks for you,
> too. :-(
>
>>Thank
>>God for therapy because had I not dealt with this behaviour from her years
>>ago, I would be crushed. I'm hurt but at least I can move past it.
>
> I'm glad you can. It's hard to do - you must've learned a lot already.
> Took me *ages* to get to that place around some things. More power to
> you!
>
> Cele

Yeah I'll stop whining soon enough. lol I'm a talker though, I talk until
the horse is so dead it's growing maggots. It makes me feel better to
analyze things until I can't think about them anymore. :P

Christine

[Cele]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:05:17 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

[snip]

>Yeah I can't cut her out completely, my children still need grandparents
>even though I may be having problems with them. She's done a complete 180
>though but that doesn't excuse what she said and I'm tired of having to deal
>with this stuff every couple of years when I do something she may not agree
>with. Example: Going to University. My parents wanted me to get out into
>the work force and make something of myself because working hard and paying
>dues are important to them. My value system is I want better for myself and
>my children. I want to wake up in the morning and like what I do and if it
>takes me 4-5 years of schooling to accomplish that, then that's my choice.
>But I'm a leech on society because I had to take out loans to do so, I guess
>having to pay them back doesn't count? lol

Damn, woman, I wish more people were lazy leeches like you are!

You were just born into the wrong family, is all. In mine, you haven't
finished school 'til you've got an undergrad degree, come hell or high
water. God help the poor kid like my youngest, who's a born athlete,
fabulous with people, but not an academic. Lucky for her she was born
to my ex and me, rather than to my father. He'd've done her in!

[snip]
>
>Yeah I'll stop whining soon enough. lol

I don't see any of this as whining. It's only whining if A) it's
overreacting or B) you're planning on making it a career, and I don't
see either of those at work here.

>I'm a talker though, I talk until
>the horse is so dead it's growing maggots. It makes me feel better to
>analyze things until I can't think about them anymore. :P

Oh, thank GOD! I thought I was the only one around here!

Poor Paul. Then again, he's hardly your silent, reserved type,
himself.....

(Hee. I happen to know he's marking these days, & doesn't have time to
read. I may never have to pay for that remark! LMAO)

(Of course, he's on holiday after next week, and will be here a week
Saturday, and might read it then.....)

(Oh well. By then I'll be able to keep him busy in person....)

Right

I'll stop now.

Cele

[denanson]

"Tiffany" < wrote in message

>
> Help! I am sitting on this..... truly don't know what to do. I do want to
> run a drug test and did tell her that is a possibility.

The reality is that about 50% of all teens experiment with drugs.When they
get to third level education that increases to 75%.
Personally I think that the first kids into drugs are usually the first ones
out of them on on to other things like cars and good clothes, I am always
more concerned for a slightly older teen who gets into them late as a means
to find a pier group.
Individually minded children can usually deal with drug, alcohol, cigarette
and shop lifting situations that will arise for them over adolecense. By now
you will already have given your daughter a sound grounding in the basic
principles of right and wrong. This will be enough to get her through the
next few years.

Personally again, I would have no worries about a bit of rebellion from a
teen. In fact I would be somewhat concerned if they didn't!

Dennis

[denanson]

"V" < wrote in message >>
>
> Amen on the therapy!
> Whoo hoo. The whole world needs therapy.

No thanks, rather leave it as an American phenominum

Dennis

[Tiffany]

"denanson" <Dennis@Large .ie> wrote in message
...
>
> "Tiffany" < wrote in message
>
>>
>> Help! I am sitting on this..... truly don't know what to do. I do want to
>> run a drug test and did tell her that is a possibility.
>
> The reality is that about 50% of all teens experiment with drugs.When they
> get to third level education that increases to 75%.
> Personally I think that the first kids into drugs are usually the first
> ones out of them on on to other things like cars and good clothes, I am
> always more concerned for a slightly older teen who gets into them late as
> a means to find a pier group.
> Individually minded children can usually deal with drug, alcohol,
> cigarette and shop lifting situations that will arise for them over
> adolecense. By now you will already have given your daughter a sound
> grounding in the basic principles of right and wrong. This will be enough
> to get her through the next few years.
>
> Personally again, I would have no worries about a bit of rebellion from a
> teen. In fact I would be somewhat concerned if they didn't!
>
> Dennis
>

So I should be concerned because she said no to drugs? :)

T

[CME]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 05:46:26 GMT, "CME" >
> wrote:
>
>>Thanks for sharing, it really helped.
>
> Glad if it did - I hoped I wasn't putting in my nose where it wasn't
> wanted. :-)
>
>>For the most part, I tend to avoid
>>any real closeness with my Mom because I know we're just two different
>>people but I was shocked she's still treating me like I'm 15 years old and
>>calling me a loser.
>
> But, see, Christine, call me crazy, but I wouldn't call a 15 year old
> a loser *either*. I don't think that's a way to treat *anybody*. And
> I'm sorry she's comfortable calling you that. I'd avoid closeness too,
> with *anybody* who spoke to me like that.
>
>>That's harsh to grow up with and is something that will
>>stick with me for the rest of my life.
>
> No doubt. :-(
>
>>To have it repeated at this point in
>>my life is something I'm just flabbergasted at. I feel like the last 10
>>years have been a lie if that's what she really thinks, you know?
>
> It's probably more what comes out of her mouth. Some people don't so
> much say what they really think, as not think much at all. Some people
> seem to be reflexively mean and not even realise they're doing it. I
> know for sure, that'd hurt me and pretty much everyone I know.
>
>> My other
>>family is pretty disappointed yet aren't all that surprised either. At
>>least I have their support, for that I'm thankful.
>
> I'm glad to hear it. You've always seemed like a very decent person
> here, in the only place I know you. 'Course, when I meet you in
> Edmonton, and find out about your Medusa head and evil eye, maybe I
> might feel differently.....
>
> LMAO
>
> Cele

Hahaha! Well I definitely have an evil eye but it's usually reserved for my
kids. It's the "knock it off or you're dead" look. lol

Christine

[CME]

"Cele" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:05:17 GMT, "CME" >
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>Yeah I can't cut her out completely, my children still need grandparents
>>even though I may be having problems with them. She's done a complete 180
>>though but that doesn't excuse what she said and I'm tired of having to
>>deal
>>with this stuff every couple of years when I do something she may not
>>agree
>>with. Example: Going to University. My parents wanted me to get out
>>into
>>the work force and make something of myself because working hard and
>>paying
>>dues are important to them. My value system is I want better for myself
>>and
>>my children. I want to wake up in the morning and like what I do and if
>>it
>>takes me 4-5 years of schooling to accomplish that, then that's my choice.
>>But I'm a leech on society because I had to take out loans to do so, I
>>guess
>>having to pay them back doesn't count? lol
>
> Damn, woman, I wish more people were lazy leeches like you are!
>
> You were just born into the wrong family, is all. In mine, you haven't
> finished school 'til you've got an undergrad degree, come hell or high
> water. God help the poor kid like my youngest, who's a born athlete,
> fabulous with people, but not an academic. Lucky for her she was born
> to my ex and me, rather than to my father. He'd've done her in!
>
> [snip]
>>
>>Yeah I'll stop whining soon enough. lol
>
> I don't see any of this as whining. It's only whining if A) it's
> overreacting or B) you're planning on making it a career, and I don't
> see either of those at work here.
>
>>I'm a talker though, I talk until
>>the horse is so dead it's growing maggots. It makes me feel better to
>>analyze things until I can't think about them anymore. :P
>
> Oh, thank GOD! I thought I was the only one around here!
>
> Poor Paul. Then again, he's hardly your silent, reserved type,
> himself.....
>
> (Hee. I happen to know he's marking these days, & doesn't have time to
> read. I may never have to pay for that remark! LMAO)
>
> (Of course, he's on holiday after next week, and will be here a week
> Saturday, and might read it then.....)
>
> (Oh well. By then I'll be able to keep him busy in person....)
>
> Right
>
> I'll stop now.
>
> Cele

LOL Yeah let's talk behind his back! We'll have enough of that over coffee
eh? :x

Christine

[Cele]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:51:03 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

>> I'm glad to hear it. You've always seemed like a very decent person
>> here, in the only place I know you. 'Course, when I meet you in
>> Edmonton, and find out about your Medusa head and evil eye, maybe I
>> might feel differently.....
>>
>> LMAO
>>
>> Cele
>
>Hahaha! Well I definitely have an evil eye but it's usually reserved for my
>kids. It's the "knock it off or you're dead" look. lol

Heh. I've got that one too! I also have a 'teacher eye'. It's like
magic. Drops 'em in their tracks. Too powerful to use often, but handy
when you need it.

Then there are all those kids on whom it doesn't work.

LMAO

Cele

[Cele]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 04:53:26 GMT, "CME" >
wrote:

>
>"Cele" > wrote in message
...
>> On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 06:05:17 GMT, "CME" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>Yeah I can't cut her out completely, my children still need grandparents
>>>even though I may be having problems with them. She's done a complete 180
>>>though but that doesn't excuse what she said and I'm tired of having to
>>>deal
>>>with this stuff every couple of years when I do something she may not
>>>agree
>>>with. Example: Going to University. My parents wanted me to get out
>>>into
>>>the work force and make something of myself because working hard and
>>>paying
>>>dues are important to them. My value system is I want better for myself
>>>and
>>>my children. I want to wake up in the morning and like what I do and if
>>>it
>>>takes me 4-5 years of schooling to accomplish that, then that's my choice.
>>>But I'm a leech on society because I had to take out loans to do so, I
>>>guess
>>>having to pay them back doesn't count? lol
>>
>> Damn, woman, I wish more people were lazy leeches like you are!
>>
>> You were just born into the wrong family, is all. In mine, you haven't
>> finished school 'til you've got an undergrad degree, come hell or high
>> water. God help the poor kid like my youngest, who's a born athlete,
>> fabulous with people, but not an academic. Lucky for her she was born
>> to my ex and me, rather than to my father. He'd've done her in!
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>>Yeah I'll stop whining soon enough. lol
>>
>> I don't see any of this as whining. It's only whining if A) it's
>> overreacting or B) you're planning on making it a career, and I don't
>> see either of those at work here.
>>
>>>I'm a talker though, I talk until
>>>the horse is so dead it's growing maggots. It makes me feel better to
>>>analyze things until I can't think about them anymore. :P
>>
>> Oh, thank GOD! I thought I was the only one around here!
>>
>> Poor Paul. Then again, he's hardly your silent, reserved type,
>> himself.....
>>
>> (Hee. I happen to know he's marking these days, & doesn't have time to
>> read. I may never have to pay for that remark! LMAO)
>>
>> (Of course, he's on holiday after next week, and will be here a week
>> Saturday, and might read it then.....)
>>
>> (Oh well. By then I'll be able to keep him busy in person....)
>>
>> Right
>>
>> I'll stop now.
>>
>> Cele
>
>LOL Yeah let's talk behind his back! We'll have enough of that over coffee
>eh? :x

Or beer....or white zinfandel...or donuts....

Cele