What do you say (stillbirths/miscarriages mentioned)

[[email protected]]

This is not a happy story. It's about someone who told me a very
upsetting story, and I'm going to share the details because they
affected how I responded. If you're at all sensitive about still
births, miscarriages, or if you're at 22 weeks or less, think carefully
before you read it. Hearing this story upset me, but that's why I'm
posting it - to get advice about what I should've said for next time.

I didn't have a stillbirth or a miscarriage - so if you would've read
this because you thought something happened to me, you don't have to.
I'm fine. :)


*****


So it seems like wherever I go, lately, people are telling me pregnancy
horror stories. On Saturday, we went out for dinner with a book of
baby names. I asked the waitress what she thought of a name we were
discussing (I talk to strangers), and she launched into a horror story.
She said, "I only have one piece of advice - eat as much as you can."
She proceeded to tell me that she had had a baby at 21 weeks gestation,
and the baby weighed less than 1 pound. She said that even though the
baby was breathing and moving, the hospital staff wouldn't do anything
to save him because he weighed less than one pound, and it was the
hospital's policy to only save babies that weigh more than one pound.
This is the same hospital where I'll deliver (the only option in our
area). She told me that she thought if she had gained more weight, the
baby would've weighed enough, and they would've saved him. She didn't
know it, but I've only gained 2 pounds (I should be up to ten by now)
and in spite of the fact that my doctor said not to worry, I'm a little
concerned. So now I'm wondering if this was some sort of sign from God
that I need to eat more... All the usual insane things that "magical
thinkers" like me usually go through in these situations...

She went on to tell me that she'd lost children at 21 weeks, 17 weeks
(where I am right now), and then a couple earlier - like 13 and 8 or so
(I was too busy reeling from the revelation of the 17 to hear the other
two). She told me that she has a clotting disorder that caused the
miscarriages, and now that they know they can treat it, and they're
hopeful that she'll be able to carry to term.

Ignoring how totally stupid it was of me to talk to anyone about baby
names (especially someone whose history I didn't know - that was
thoughtless), what in the world should I have said?? I ended up
chanting, "This is rare, this does not happen to most people. Chances
are that I will be fine..." over and over and over in my head while she
was talking. I wanted to be supportive of her - I actually found
myself thinking about Emily, and trying to react with the same empathy
that I'd show Emily if I met her in person and she told me her story.

I thought about saying, "Wow, I'm really sorry that happened to you,
but I'm frightened enough, please don't tell me anymore," but that
seemed harsh. I couldn't find a way to change the subject. She stood
at our table and talked to us for a good 10 minutes. On one hand it
was good, because my husband thought I was exaggerating the stories of
other women's horror stories - having him there to hear one first hand,
and being able to say, "This happens to me every day!" really helped
him understand why I come home in tears sometimes. On the other hand,
it scared the crap out of me.

I understand that this is sort of like a sorority hazing - that in
order to be in the Mom Club we all have to walk through this emotional
torture. I even find myself doing it with my friends who haven't had
kids (although I try to couch each negative between two positives -
when they ask what it feels like to be pregnant, I'll tell them, "Well,
it was really amazing to feel the baby move. I get a little sick if I
don't eat often enough, but it's manageable. And the sex is amazing!!"
That way, they're more likely to remember the positives. I also make
an effort to downplay the negatives, although I've been known to say,
"It's really, really weird..." (which is true!). I'm trying to think
of these stories as emotional Braxton-Hicks contractions - it's
practice for all the bad parenting advice that I'm going to hear for
the next 20 years, sort of an emotional toughening.

I'd really like to be able to say something that isn't rude, that
doesn't make me sound weak or cowardly, but that gets the point across
that I don't really want to hear everyone's horror stories. My mom
suggested making a button that says, "Yes, I'm pregnant. And I only
want to hear happy stories," and wearing it all the time. :)

Mom also suggested that I call the restaurant and complain. My
response to that was, "Her life already sucks enough - she's a waitress
and she's had four miscarriages. I don't want to get her fired on top
of it." Besides, I got the impression that she was a manager - she was
signing other people out while she was talking to us (it was late), so
there's a very real possibility that if I called, I'd end up talking to
her. That would be awkward!!

So, what do you say? I know this is going to get worse as I start
showing more and more... I'd like to be prepared.

Thanks,
Amy

[Ericka Kammerer]

wrote:

> So it seems like wherever I go, lately, people are telling me pregnancy
> horror stories. On Saturday, we went out for dinner with a book of
> baby names. I asked the waitress what she thought of a name we were
> discussing (I talk to strangers), and she launched into a horror story.
> She said, "I only have one piece of advice - eat as much as you can."
> She proceeded to tell me that she had had a baby at 21 weeks gestation,
> and the baby weighed less than 1 pound. She said that even though the
> baby was breathing and moving, the hospital staff wouldn't do anything
> to save him because he weighed less than one pound, and it was the
> hospital's policy to only save babies that weigh more than one pound.
> This is the same hospital where I'll deliver (the only option in our
> area). She told me that she thought if she had gained more weight, the
> baby would've weighed enough, and they would've saved him. She didn't
> know it, but I've only gained 2 pounds (I should be up to ten by now)
> and in spite of the fact that my doctor said not to worry, I'm a little
> concerned. So now I'm wondering if this was some sort of sign from God
> that I need to eat more... All the usual insane things that "magical
> thinkers" like me usually go through in these situations...

Okay, sad though this is, she's mistaken. For a 21 week
fetus to weigh more than a pound would be waaaaaaaaaay off the
charts. They didn't attempt to save the baby because 21 weeks
is just too early. There isn't any chance. There's only a
15 percent chance at 23 weeks!

> I thought about saying, "Wow, I'm really sorry that happened to you,
> but I'm frightened enough, please don't tell me anymore," but that
> seemed harsh.

I think it would have been quite appropriate to say
something like that--maybe, "I'm so sorry that happened to
you, but I'm afraid that in my condition it's really stressful
to hear about this right now."

> So, what do you say? I know this is going to get worse as I start
> showing more and more... I'd like to be prepared.

I think the best thing is to launch a pre-emptive
strike. When the topic comes around, say, "Before you get
started, I wanted you to know that right now, I can only
handle positive pregnancy and birth stories."

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Shelley]

Hmmm, tough one. It seems to a natural response for people to come
back with their own stories no matter what the situation. People just
seem to do it in everyday life and I've been known to do it myself. I
think it's a way to relate. It's very fustrating but what do you do
about it? In this particular case I think all you can do is sympathise
and tell her how sorry you were for her loss. I don't see how you
could have tactfully told her you didn't want to hear it. As for the
future, all I can think of is "jokingly" say something along the lines
of "Please, I can't hear any more, I'm emotional enough already" or
"I'm trying to focus on the postive". It is a delemma though, I'm
interested as to how others may have handled this.

Shelley
mom to Jacob (3 yo)
edd mar 30/05

[[email protected]]

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

> Okay, sad though this is, she's mistaken. For a 21 week
> fetus to weigh more than a pound would be waaaaaaaaaay off the
> charts. They didn't attempt to save the baby because 21 weeks
> is just too early. There isn't any chance. There's only a
> 15 percent chance at 23 weeks!

Well, that's sort of what I was thinking, but I didn't want to
contradict her and make matters any worse. I was also thinking that
gaining too much weight could cause the baby more harm than good, but I
didn't say that, either...

> > I thought about saying, "Wow, I'm really sorry that happened to
you,
> > but I'm frightened enough, please don't tell me anymore," but that
> > seemed harsh.
>
> I think it would have been quite appropriate to say
> something like that--maybe, "I'm so sorry that happened to
> you, but I'm afraid that in my condition it's really stressful
> to hear about this right now."

I like that. "Stressful" sounds stronger than "I'm frightened enough."

> > So, what do you say? I know this is going to get worse as I start
> > showing more and more... I'd like to be prepared.
>
> I think the best thing is to launch a pre-emptive
> strike. When the topic comes around, say, "Before you get
> started, I wanted you to know that right now, I can only
> handle positive pregnancy and birth stories."

I like that too, a pre-emptive strike. It's probably a good response,
anyway, considering that the rest of the world seems to be running a
"Shock and Awe" campaign against me! :)

Thanks for the help. I'll try these and let you know how they work.

Amy

[Cuddlefish]

It seems to me that this woman had not had therapy or an appropriate outlet
to deal with her grief. I can understand her needing to unburden - gosh we
all do. However, her sharing with you, was not meant to be personal [ha!
everything is personal to a pregnant woman, though.. ;)] but it was all
about her, and her need to share. By listening and showing sympathy, I
believe you helped by letting her share her pain. The unfortunate flipside,
is that her sharing to a pregnant woman was a little inappropriate.

I too have been privy to horrible stories like these before and after
getting pregnant. I repeat "it is about them, not you" to myself when I get
anxious while saying things like "I am sorry you had this sad experience" to
them. I just hope my showing sympathy helps them in a small way.

--
Jacqueline
#1 Due late Jul/early Aug

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> This is not a happy story. It's about someone who told me a very
> upsetting story, and I'm going to share the details because they
> affected how I responded. If you're at all sensitive about still
> births, miscarriages, or if you're at 22 weeks or less, think carefully
> before you read it. Hearing this story upset me, but that's why I'm
> posting it - to get advice about what I should've said for next time.
>
> I didn't have a stillbirth or a miscarriage - so if you would've read
> this because you thought something happened to me, you don't have to.
> I'm fine. :)
>
>
> *****

[Donna Metler]

Actually, most mothers I know who have lost babies don't talk about it much
unless we know the person will understand, because it opens you up to being
hurt so often. I don't think you have to worry.

Worrying about a pregnancy loss is kind of like worrying about being struck
by lightning. While there are a few precautions you can take, in the final
analysis, either it happens to you or it doesn't, and worrying about it
won't change it. Unless you have reason to worry, there's no reason to
stress yourself about it, and many reasons not to.

Having said that, my daughter is 3 months old, and I still have panic
attacks about losing her.
--
Donna DeVore Metler
Orff Music Specialist/Band/Choir
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony 1/1/2002, 22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP
And Allison Joy, 11/26/04 (35 weeks, PIH, Pre-term labor)

[Melania]

>
> So it seems like wherever I go, lately, people are telling me
pregnancy
> horror stories. On Saturday, we went out for dinner with a book of
> baby names. I asked the waitress what she thought of a name we were
> discussing (I talk to strangers), and she launched into a horror
story.
> She said, "I only have one piece of advice - eat as much as you
can."
> She proceeded to tell me that she had had a baby at 21 weeks
gestation,
> and the baby weighed less than 1 pound. She said that even though
the
> baby was breathing and moving, the hospital staff wouldn't do
anything
> to save him because he weighed less than one pound, and it was the
> hospital's policy to only save babies that weigh more than one pound.
> This is the same hospital where I'll deliver (the only option in our
> area). She told me that she thought if she had gained more weight,
the
> baby would've weighed enough, and they would've saved him. She
didn't
> know it, but I've only gained 2 pounds (I should be up to ten by now)
> and in spite of the fact that my doctor said not to worry, I'm a
little
> concerned. So now I'm wondering if this was some sort of sign from
God
> that I need to eat more... All the usual insane things that "magical
> thinkers" like me usually go through in these situations...
>
> She went on to tell me that she'd lost children at 21 weeks, 17 weeks
> (where I am right now), and then a couple earlier - like 13 and 8 or
so
> (I was too busy reeling from the revelation of the 17 to hear the
other
> two). She told me that she has a clotting disorder that caused the
> miscarriages, and now that they know they can treat it, and they're
> hopeful that she'll be able to carry to term.

Wow. This is the most extreme case of this I've heard of, Amy! When I
was expecting #1, people were always telling me about losses - just not
the same person all at once. My mom, because she and I talk openly, and
she needed someone to talk to, called me up when I was around 20 weeks
to tell me all about someone she knew who had just miscarried at 15
weeks. In the same week, my MIL told me - graphically - about someone
else's 2nd trimester miscarriage. All through my pregnancy people were
telling me about miscarriages and horrible birth stories. I didn't hear
any term stillbirth stories (thank God), but when ds was 3 months old
we went out for dinner with a colleague of dh's who was about our age
(26 or 27 yo). Over dinner, she made some comment about babies
(nursing, sleeping, something) that would indicate she had children.
So, I said, "oh, do you have kids?" She said, "well, I had a son, but
he died of meningitis at 5 months." I was mortified, first for having
said anything (but how could I have known?) and also for her, of
course. I said how sorry I was, and she was really matter-of-fact - it
had been three years earlier, she still didn't feel ready to try for
more kids, but she would in another year or two . . . the bottom line
is, it was her tragedy, and had nothing to do with me. I just felt
terrible for inadvertently bringing it back up in her mind.

>
> Ignoring how totally stupid it was of me to talk to anyone about baby
> names (especially someone whose history I didn't know - that was
> thoughtless), what in the world should I have said?? I ended up
> chanting, "This is rare, this does not happen to most people.
Chances
> are that I will be fine..." over and over and over in my head while
she
> was talking. I wanted to be supportive of her - I actually found
> myself thinking about Emily, and trying to react with the same
empathy
> that I'd show Emily if I met her in person and she told me her story.
>
> I thought about saying, "Wow, I'm really sorry that happened to you,
> but I'm frightened enough, please don't tell me anymore," but that
> seemed harsh.

For me, I just had to thicken my skin and listen empathetically when
people told me about their losses. It has to be harder on them than on
me. And to tell myself (over and over) how lucky I was, and how I
needed to keep things in perspective. When I thought I was losing the
pregnancy with ds #1, at 9 weeks, I cried a lot, but I also told myself
"well, at least we know we can have babies. And lots of people
miscarry, including MIL before she had dh." It helped to be living with
our housemate at the time, who was born at 30 weeks and is a
successful, talented publicist. None of the women in her family can
carry a baby to term - her cousin was born at 25 weeks, the earliest to
survive, and her sister is the latest at 36 weeks. I also think of my
SIL, who miscarried her first pregnancy, and whose mother had a baby
die at birth from a heart defect. For her, pregnancy must be much
scarier than me - I've never miscarried, and there's no history (at
all) of miscarriage or infant death in my family. Not that I feel
immune, or something, but just that I realize that it's a lot less
likely that something bad *will* happen than it is that it won't, and
if it does, it was just a random bad thing.

> I understand that this is sort of like a sorority hazing - that in
> order to be in the Mom Club we all have to walk through this
emotional
> torture.

Oh, I don't truck with this at all. Any horror stories I heard - if
they weren't someone needing to talk about a bad experience to get it
off their chest - I cut off with, "and that's too bad, but really: we
all got here one way, and one way only, and our moms are all fine. And
they all got here the same way. Women have been having babies for as
long as there have been women." Or I'd ask, "why are you telling me
this? Do you think I should be scared?" Or I'd say, "well, it's going
to happen, so there's no point in being scared about it." This is key
for me. Anyone you ever see, every single person you know, was born. I
bet you dollars to doughnuts they're not only children, either. Why all
the fear-mongering? I don't do it, and I don't appreciate other people
doing it, either.

<snip>
> I'd really like to be able to say something that isn't rude, that
> doesn't make me sound weak or cowardly, but that gets the point
across
> that I don't really want to hear everyone's horror stories. My mom
> suggested making a button that says, "Yes, I'm pregnant. And I only
> want to hear happy stories," and wearing it all the time. :)

<snip>
>
> So, what do you say? I know this is going to get worse as I start
> showing more and more... I'd like to be prepared.
>
> Thanks,
> Amy

Okay. Here's what I do. If it's someone like your waitress, who clearly
needs to unload something terrible and personal, I listen, and am as
supportive and empathetic as I can be. No matter if it sounds out to
lunch, or like she's got the facts wrong (as Ericka pointed out with
the 21 week birth), I don't do anything but listen, sympathize, and try
to comfort. If, however, which happens more often, it's someone doing
the "hazing" thing (my personal peeve was people always painting the
18-20 years *after* the birth as some kind of purgatorial slavery) and
it's clear that they're just delighting in telling a horror story, I
cut them off and tell them politely but firmly that I don't need to
hear that kind of thing right now.

I try to tell other expectant mothers about the innumerable wonders
that come with becoming a parent. Yes, there are things that seem to be
universally hard, but they pass sooooo quickly for most of us (I'm
thinking of the first 6 weeks, with all the
sleeping/nursing/growing/adjusting speedbumps). When I was pregnant for
the first time, I met a couple with a 3mo baby who just smiled at me
and said, "you are going to have so much fun!!" and it meant the world
to hear it. And they were absolutely right.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[Cathy Weeks]

Donna Metler wrote:

> Having said that, my daughter is 3 months old, and I still have
panic
> attacks about losing her.

That doesn't seem to go away. My daughter is 3 years old, and I still
have it happen occasionally.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

[Emily]

wrote:
> Ignoring how totally stupid it was of me to talk to anyone about baby
> names (especially someone whose history I didn't know - that was
> thoughtless), what in the world should I have said?? I ended up
> chanting, "This is rare, this does not happen to most people. Chances
> are that I will be fine..." over and over and over in my head while she
> was talking. I wanted to be supportive of her - I actually found
> myself thinking about Emily, and trying to react with the same empathy
> that I'd show Emily if I met her in person and she told me her story.

Thanks for thinking of me Amy :)

> I understand that this is sort of like a sorority hazing - that in
> order to be in the Mom Club we all have to walk through this emotional
> torture. I even find myself doing it with my friends who haven't had
> kids (although I try to couch each negative between two positives -
> when they ask what it feels like to be pregnant, I'll tell them, "Well,
> it was really amazing to feel the baby move. I get a little sick if I
> don't eat often enough, but it's manageable. And the sex is amazing!!"
> That way, they're more likely to remember the positives. I also make
> an effort to downplay the negatives, although I've been known to say,
> "It's really, really weird..." (which is true!). I'm trying to think
> of these stories as emotional Braxton-Hicks contractions - it's
> practice for all the bad parenting advice that I'm going to hear for
> the next 20 years, sort of an emotional toughening.

I like this analogy! Although rather than thinking of it as toughening,
I think it's practice for letting the bad parenthing advice just go
by. You know how they say that contractions hurt more if you resist
them? Same thing: try to let this kind of stuff just go right through
you.

> I'd really like to be able to say something that isn't rude, that
> doesn't make me sound weak or cowardly, but that gets the point across
> that I don't really want to hear everyone's horror stories. My mom
> suggested making a button that says, "Yes, I'm pregnant. And I only
> want to hear happy stories," and wearing it all the time. :)

I think that's a good idea, as is Ericka's suggestion. If you
can't get in the preemptive strike, what about gently turning the
topic away from the actual loss. Something like "I'm really sorry
to hear you had to go through that. Did you get good support from
your family and friends at the time?" That would of course cause
the conversation to continue, I'd imagine. It would be a move
that shows empathy for the person, and hopefully takes the topic
away from the scary part.

You say you get horror stories all the time. How often are they
stories about the person's own experience? If it's about someone
other than the speaker, it should be easier to say, "I'm sorry, I
really find it stressful to think about that right now."

Emily

[Larry McMahan]

Cathy Weeks > writes:
: Donna Metler wrote:

:> Having said that, my daughter is 3 months old, and I still have
: panic
:> attacks about losing her.

: That doesn't seem to go away. My daughter is 3 years old, and I still
: have it happen occasionally.

: Cathy Weeks
: Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Wait until she is a teenager, and driving a car!

Larry

[Caledonia]

wrote:

(some snip)

>
> So it seems like wherever I go, lately, people are telling me
pregnancy
> horror stories. On Saturday, we went out for dinner with a book of
> baby names. I asked the waitress what she thought of a name we were
> discussing (I talk to strangers), and she launched into a horror
story.

I think you've gotten great advice regarding this experience -- the
only thing I'd add is that if you don't want to involve people and hear
their horror stories or advice, please don't strike up a conversation.
This may be a regional difference (my siblings point this out to me
when I go back to the midwest; I cringe when they wave and say 'hello'
and start conversations with random people when they visit), but it
definitely minimizes conversational wear and tear.

(snip waitron horror story)

> I understand that this is sort of like a sorority hazing - that in
> order to be in the Mom Club we all have to walk through this
emotional
> torture.

I don't think that's true at all (okay, I know nothing about life in a
sorority). I received zero advice from strangers while very obviously
pregnant and riding a subway packed with commuters, working in a large
office, weekly flights on airlines -- the only question I received with
any frequency from strangers was whether I wanted to sit down (and it
was always voiced by women...heh). Nothing else. Maybe it's that people
don't 'share' here, maybe it's that I radiated a cloud of 'don't
ask/don't tell'. Probably more the former, some of the latter.

> Mom also suggested that I call the restaurant and complain. My
> response to that was, "Her life already sucks enough - she's a
waitress
> and she's had four miscarriages. I don't want to get her fired on
top
> of it." Besides, I got the impression that she was a manager - she
was
> signing other people out while she was talking to us (it was late),
so
> there's a very real possibility that if I called, I'd end up talking
to
> her. That would be awkward!!
>
> So, what do you say? I know this is going to get worse as I start
> showing more and more... I'd like to be prepared.
>
> Thanks,
> Amy

I commend you on your response to your Mom, given that you opened the
conversation. I also have a pet peeve about service people who inject
themselves in conversation so am unduly sensitive to this. I never
waited tables (I cleaned office buildings instead while in college),
and I know it *is* awkward to pretend that you're just part of the
background noise, but for me, I knew that my clients weren't paying for
my perspective on their recent LBO and whether they'd paid too much,
they were paying me to empty their trash cans.

Caledonia

[[email protected]]

Caledonia wrote:
> wrote:

> I think you've gotten great advice regarding this experience

I do too! I appreciate all of it!

>-- the
> only thing I'd add is that if you don't want to involve people and
hear
> their horror stories or advice, please don't strike up a
conversation.
> This may be a regional difference (my siblings point this out to me
> when I go back to the midwest; I cringe when they wave and say
'hello'
> and start conversations with random people when they visit), but it
> definitely minimizes conversational wear and tear.

I've lived my whole life in the midwest, and I'm an extroverted
midwesterner at that! It sounds like you live in a big city. If
people here treated each other the way that people in big cities treat
each other, they'd be seen as rude and unfriendly. If people in big
cities treated each other the way we treat each other here, they'd be
seen as crazy people. I think it's definitely a regional thing.
Still, I could easily have said, "Crummy weather, huh?" instead of
talking about the pregnancy - which is definitely what I plan to do in
the future. Knowing the midwest, though, I'm just positive that once
I'm really showing, it's going to happen more and more (without me
initiating it). It's one of those things that I love and hate about
living here (but I'd seriously get killed if I lived somewhere else -
the first time I said to someone, "My that's a lovely gun..." on a
subway or something. :) )

> (snip waitron horror story)
>
> > I understand that this is sort of like a sorority hazing - that in
> > order to be in the Mom Club we all have to walk through this
> emotional
> > torture.
>
> I don't think that's true at all (okay, I know nothing about life in
a
> sorority). I received zero advice from strangers while very obviously
> pregnant and riding a subway packed with commuters, working in a
large
> office, weekly flights on airlines -- the only question I received
with
> any frequency from strangers was whether I wanted to sit down (and it
> was always voiced by women...heh). Nothing else. Maybe it's that
people
> don't 'share' here, maybe it's that I radiated a cloud of 'don't
> ask/don't tell'. Probably more the former, some of the latter.

I've been told a thousand times that I have one of those faces. People
always ask me for directions, or in stores they'll ask me where
something is. "I don't work here, but it's over there," and they'll
reply, "Oh, I know, but you look approachable..." Perfect strangers
have told me their life's stories. It's a gift and a curse.

> I commend you on your response to your Mom, given that you opened the
> conversation. I also have a pet peeve about service people who inject
> themselves in conversation so am unduly sensitive to this. I never
> waited tables (I cleaned office buildings instead while in college),
> and I know it *is* awkward to pretend that you're just part of the
> background noise, but for me, I knew that my clients weren't paying
for
> my perspective on their recent LBO and whether they'd paid too much,
> they were paying me to empty their trash cans.

Oh, I was a terrible waitress, because I talked to my customers way too
much. I did great in an informal diner, but lousy at a more formal
restaurant where people wanted to be left alone. However, I never
revealed anything as personal as the waitress last night did!!

Thanks for the advice,
Amy

[Melania]

wrote:
> Caledonia wrote:
> > wrote:
>
> > I think you've gotten great advice regarding this experience
>
> I do too! I appreciate all of it!
>
> >-- the
> > only thing I'd add is that if you don't want to involve people and
> hear
> > their horror stories or advice, please don't strike up a
> conversation.
> > This may be a regional difference (my siblings point this out to me
> > when I go back to the midwest; I cringe when they wave and say
> 'hello'
> > and start conversations with random people when they visit), but it
> > definitely minimizes conversational wear and tear.
>
> I've lived my whole life in the midwest, and I'm an extroverted
> midwesterner at that! It sounds like you live in a big city. If
> people here treated each other the way that people in big cities
treat
> each other, they'd be seen as rude and unfriendly. If people in big
> cities treated each other the way we treat each other here, they'd be
> seen as crazy people. I think it's definitely a regional thing.
> Still, I could easily have said, "Crummy weather, huh?" instead of
> talking about the pregnancy - which is definitely what I plan to do
in
> the future. Knowing the midwest, though, I'm just positive that once
> I'm really showing, it's going to happen more and more (without me
> initiating it). It's one of those things that I love and hate about
> living here (but I'd seriously get killed if I lived somewhere else -
> the first time I said to someone, "My that's a lovely gun..." on a
> subway or something. :) )
>
> > (snip waitron horror story)
> >
> > > I understand that this is sort of like a sorority hazing - that
in
> > > order to be in the Mom Club we all have to walk through this
> > emotional
> > > torture.
> >
> > I don't think that's true at all (okay, I know nothing about life
in
> a
> > sorority). I received zero advice from strangers while very
obviously
> > pregnant and riding a subway packed with commuters, working in a
> large
> > office, weekly flights on airlines -- the only question I received
> with
> > any frequency from strangers was whether I wanted to sit down (and
it
> > was always voiced by women...heh). Nothing else. Maybe it's that
> people
> > don't 'share' here, maybe it's that I radiated a cloud of 'don't
> > ask/don't tell'. Probably more the former, some of the latter.
>
> I've been told a thousand times that I have one of those faces.
People
> always ask me for directions, or in stores they'll ask me where
> something is. "I don't work here, but it's over there," and they'll
> reply, "Oh, I know, but you look approachable..." Perfect strangers
> have told me their life's stories. It's a gift and a curse.

You and me both. I have "talk to me!!" tattooed on my forehead
(fortunately, I do love to talk!). I can't ride the bus without making
a new friend - even on the metro in DC. The store thing happens a lot
too. I've been wearing a coat and carrying a bag and been asked where
something was in a store. When I said, "oh, I'm sorry, I don't know,"
the person said, "oh, sorry, I thought you worked here! You look like
you know your way around!" I get asked for directions in cities I've
never been to before, by other tourists!

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[Jamie Clark]

Amy,
This woman's story is very sad, but it was pretty inappropriate of her to be
telling you her whole history while standing over your table at a
restaurant. And her comment about eating more is just ignorant -- yes, that
may be their rule, but the truth of the matter is even if her 21 week
gestation baby weighed 2lbs, it likely would have died due to being so
premature. Most hospitals have some cut off date -- it's usually tied to
gestation weeks rather than baby's weight, because even with heroic
measures, these babies either do not live or need immense medical assistance
for life. Regardless of all of that, her blood clotting and history of
miscarriages has nothing to do with you and your possible choice of a baby
name. That was just mean and snarky of her, to scare you with her history.

I think there is nothing wrong with saying -- "Listen, I'm so sorry for what
you've been through, but I really am not comfortable talking about this any
more. Thanks for your concern." That doesn't make you sound weak, or
cowardly or insensitive. It's sympathetic to her, but still clearly states
your boundaries.

I have some sort of immunity issue which causes recurrent miscarriages in
me. I've lost at least 8 pregnancies because of it. Plus Nathan. If
someone asked me my opinion on a baby name, I'd NEVER launch into my whole
history. The only time I get into my history is when clueless but well
meaning people hear that my daughters are adopted and say, "Oh, you'll get
pregnant in no time, just watch!" or "Now that you've adopted, you'll get
pregnant!" Uh, no, I won't. And even if I did, it likely wouldn't stick
around.

Now, as someone who has been to the depths of infertility and back, I can
say that it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing to be a little more careful
or sensitive when talking to complete strangers about your pregnancy. 1 in
5 women will experience some sort of infertility, including miscarriages, so
you never know the history of the people you are talking to, and if one of
them may have had a loss or two, or been ttc for months or years on end and
not yet conceived.

I know many friends who would have been thrown for a complete loop, and
delved into a pretty good sized depression (and then vented about it on
various infertility newsgroups) if they'd gone to a restaurant and a
pregnant waitress had asked them their onion on baby names...
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Manners, who says, "No skank you" and
"Tank you very much, momma."
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- The Prodigy, who can now roll over, and pull
herself to standing while holding onto someone's fingers!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
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Password

[Jamie Clark]

"Melania" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>>
>> So it seems like wherever I go, lately, people are telling me
> pregnancy
>> horror stories. On Saturday, we went out for dinner with a book of
>> baby names. I asked the waitress what she thought of a name we were
>> discussing (I talk to strangers), and she launched into a horror
> story.
>> She said, "I only have one piece of advice - eat as much as you
> can."
>> She proceeded to tell me that she had had a baby at 21 weeks
> gestation,
>> and the baby weighed less than 1 pound. She said that even though
> the
>> baby was breathing and moving, the hospital staff wouldn't do
> anything
>> to save him because he weighed less than one pound, and it was the
>> hospital's policy to only save babies that weigh more than one pound.
>> This is the same hospital where I'll deliver (the only option in our
>> area). She told me that she thought if she had gained more weight,
> the
>> baby would've weighed enough, and they would've saved him. She
> didn't
>> know it, but I've only gained 2 pounds (I should be up to ten by now)
>> and in spite of the fact that my doctor said not to worry, I'm a
> little
>> concerned. So now I'm wondering if this was some sort of sign from
> God
>> that I need to eat more... All the usual insane things that "magical
>> thinkers" like me usually go through in these situations...
>>
>> She went on to tell me that she'd lost children at 21 weeks, 17 weeks
>> (where I am right now), and then a couple earlier - like 13 and 8 or
> so
>> (I was too busy reeling from the revelation of the 17 to hear the
> other
>> two). She told me that she has a clotting disorder that caused the
>> miscarriages, and now that they know they can treat it, and they're
>> hopeful that she'll be able to carry to term.
>
> Wow. This is the most extreme case of this I've heard of, Amy! When I
> was expecting #1, people were always telling me about losses - just not
> the same person all at once. My mom, because she and I talk openly, and
> she needed someone to talk to, called me up when I was around 20 weeks
> to tell me all about someone she knew who had just miscarried at 15
> weeks. In the same week, my MIL told me - graphically - about someone
> else's 2nd trimester miscarriage. All through my pregnancy people were
> telling me about miscarriages and horrible birth stories. I didn't hear
> any term stillbirth stories (thank God), but when ds was 3 months old
> we went out for dinner with a colleague of dh's who was about our age
> (26 or 27 yo). Over dinner, she made some comment about babies
> (nursing, sleeping, something) that would indicate she had children.
> So, I said, "oh, do you have kids?" She said, "well, I had a son, but
> he died of meningitis at 5 months." I was mortified, first for having
> said anything (but how could I have known?) and also for her, of
> course. I said how sorry I was, and she was really matter-of-fact - it
> had been three years earlier, she still didn't feel ready to try for
> more kids, but she would in another year or two . . . the bottom line
> is, it was her tragedy, and had nothing to do with me. I just felt
> terrible for inadvertently bringing it back up in her mind.

Melania,
You shouldn't feel terrible. You didn't bring it back up for her -- it's
never left her mind. In fact, the fact that she could have a normal
conversation about babies nursing or sleeping, or givign birth, etc, shows
that she has incorporated her child's life and death into her life -- it's
just a part of who she is. It happened, and it was 3 years ago, and it
sucked, and maybe in two more years she'll be ready to try again and have
another child. She sounds like she is in a really healthy place! And you
are RIGHT ON -- it is her tragedy, and it had nothing to do with you.

When we lost Nathan, my good friend was also pregnant, due on the same day.
I lost Nathan at 23.5 weeks, and then spent the rest of my friends pregnancy
seeing where she was and where I wasn't. It was tough, but I told my
friend -- my tragedy had nothing to do with her and her pregnancy, and I had
nothing but good wishes for her and her baby.

Cut to 7 years later, I was at the baby shower of another good friend of
mine. There were a few single women there, some mothers of young children,
and a few pregnant women. Of course, the conversation turned to being
pregnant and then giving birth. I participated in the conversation, because
I had had been pregnant for almost 24 wekes, and I had given birth, even
though it didn't have a happy ending. But my history was still relevent,
and my point still valid. (My conversation point, in case you wondered, was
to encourage my friend to hire a doula. I related that while we labored
with Nathan, there had been 2 shift changes, so we'd gone through 3
nurses -- the day nurse was AWESOME, the evening nurse was okay, and the
night shift nurse was terrible! If we'd had a doula, she could have helped
immensly, and it wouldn't have matter if Nurse Ratchet was on shift.
Thankfully, the day nurse came back on duty about 30 minutes after Nathan
was born, and really helped me emotionally.) So my point here is that I
feel comfortable talking about Nathan, and my pregnancy wtih him, because I
have successfully incorporated him into my life.

Anyway, my point was that you shouldn't have been mortified -- sad for her,
yes, but ashamed or embarrased to have brought it up? No. She was openly
talking about it, in her own way.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Manners, who says, "No skank you" and
"Tank you very much, momma."
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- The Prodigy, who can now roll over, and pull
herself to standing while holding onto someone's fingers!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
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[Paula J]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:32:45 -0800, "Jamie Clark"
> wrote:

>
>I know many friends who would have been thrown for a complete loop, and
>delved into a pretty good sized depression (and then vented about it on
>various infertility newsgroups) if they'd gone to a restaurant and a
>pregnant waitress had asked them their onion on baby names...

I was thinking exactly the same thing, Jamie.... there have been times
where something like that out of context and out of the blue would've
had me in tears. I suppose I'm oversensitive at this point, though...
on the rare occasions I do get to leave the house, I wish I weren't so
obviously pregnant, because I worry about hurting someone. There was a
woman at my OB's office talking to the office staff about her IF
problems at my last visit, and the look she gave me was so mean -- I
wanted to tell her that I understood, but I knew she wouldn't want to
hear it from preggo-out-to-here-with-#3 so I kept my mouth shut.

Amy, you got some good advice on this thread, and I agree with it.
BTW, she is also very wrong about why they didn't try to save her
baby; 21-weekers simply cannot survive, no matter what they weigh.
Many babies under a pound have been saved at hospitals around the
country, but typically they are later gestations and IUGR (a local
story followed a little girl born at 26 weeks, same gestation as my
DDs, who weighed only 8.5 oz -- lighter than my 19-weekers!).

--
Paula
Mom to Olivia and Cassie (b. 4/8/03 @ 26 weeks)
^Grace^ (b. 5/16/02 d. 5/17/02) and ^Adam^ (b/d. 5/17/02)
and a little BOY due 7/4/05 :-)

[Jamie Clark]

Paula,
When we were deep into our fertility crap, the one reason why I didn't have
as hard a time as many women seeing pregnant women was this -- I would look
at that pregnant woman and instead of assuming she was a "fertile myrtle"
who got pregnant without problems, I'd look at her and wonder how many
miscarriages did she have, or how long did it take her to get pregnant. I
realized that you can never know someone's history just by looking at them.
And like someone else said, my tragedy had nothing to do with them. I would
hope that their backstory was that they'd suffered but where now finally
getting to experience their happy ending.

You also don't know someone's future just by looking at them. Bad things
happen all the time, and you never know who is going to win the baby lottery
and take home a healthy infant and who isn't. I remember when I was
pregnant with Nathan, and we'd found out how sick he was, and had decided
that we were going to end the pregnancy, but it wasn't scheduled to happen
for another few weeks. In the meantime, I had business trips to attend,
trainings to give, and we went out to dinner a few times. And of course, it
was during these weeks, from 20-24 weeks, that I really began to show,
finally. So I just started to wear maternity clothes. I got several
comments from people about my pregnancy, and had to gently redirect, or
gently inform them that it was likely that this baby wasn't going to make
it. But a woman dealing with IF might have looked at me, young and pregnant
with a just noticeable bump, and she might have felt grief and longing --
not realizing that I wouldn't have wished my situation on anyone. You just
can't know by looking at someone.

I know YOU, of all people, know this. I'm just thinking out loud here.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Manners, who says, "No skank you" and
"Tank you very much, momma."
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- The Prodigy, who can now roll over, and pull
herself to standing while holding onto someone's fingers!

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Password

"Paula J" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 14:32:45 -0800, "Jamie Clark"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>I know many friends who would have been thrown for a complete loop, and
>>delved into a pretty good sized depression (and then vented about it on
>>various infertility newsgroups) if they'd gone to a restaurant and a
>>pregnant waitress had asked them their onion on baby names...
>
> I was thinking exactly the same thing, Jamie.... there have been times
> where something like that out of context and out of the blue would've
> had me in tears. I suppose I'm oversensitive at this point, though...
> on the rare occasions I do get to leave the house, I wish I weren't so
> obviously pregnant, because I worry about hurting someone. There was a
> woman at my OB's office talking to the office staff about her IF
> problems at my last visit, and the look she gave me was so mean -- I
> wanted to tell her that I understood, but I knew she wouldn't want to
> hear it from preggo-out-to-here-with-#3 so I kept my mouth shut.

[Melania]

<snipped history - I felt badly about asking a woman if she had
children, and she had lost a baby to meningitis when he was five months
old>

> Melania,
> You shouldn't feel terrible. You didn't bring it back up for her --
it's
> never left her mind. In fact, the fact that she could have a normal
> conversation about babies nursing or sleeping, or givign birth, etc,
shows
> that she has incorporated her child's life and death into her life --
it's
> just a part of who she is. It happened, and it was 3 years ago, and
it
> sucked, and maybe in two more years she'll be ready to try again and
have
> another child. She sounds like she is in a really healthy place!
And you
> are RIGHT ON -- it is her tragedy, and it had nothing to do with you.
>
> When we lost Nathan, my good friend was also pregnant, due on the
same day.
> I lost Nathan at 23.5 weeks, and then spent the rest of my friends
pregnancy
> seeing where she was and where I wasn't. It was tough, but I told my

> friend -- my tragedy had nothing to do with her and her pregnancy,
and I had
> nothing but good wishes for her and her baby.
>
> Cut to 7 years later, I was at the baby shower of another good friend
of
> mine. There were a few single women there, some mothers of young
children,
> and a few pregnant women. Of course, the conversation turned to
being
> pregnant and then giving birth. I participated in the conversation,
because
> I had had been pregnant for almost 24 wekes, and I had given birth,
even
> though it didn't have a happy ending. But my history was still
relevent,
> and my point still valid. (My conversation point, in case you
wondered, was
> to encourage my friend to hire a doula. I related that while we
labored
> with Nathan, there had been 2 shift changes, so we'd gone through 3
> nurses -- the day nurse was AWESOME, the evening nurse was okay, and
the
> night shift nurse was terrible! If we'd had a doula, she could have
helped
> immensly, and it wouldn't have matter if Nurse Ratchet was on shift.
> Thankfully, the day nurse came back on duty about 30 minutes after
Nathan
> was born, and really helped me emotionally.) So my point here is
that I
> feel comfortable talking about Nathan, and my pregnancy wtih him,
because I
> have successfully incorporated him into my life.
>
> Anyway, my point was that you shouldn't have been mortified -- sad
for her,
> yes, but ashamed or embarrased to have brought it up? No. She was
openly
> talking about it, in her own way.

Thanks, Jamie - and thanks for your other posts in this thread, sharing
your own story and offering such great insight. I'm really glad you're
on mkp; I really appreciate seeing your posts!

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[Robert Powell]

<snip>

> So it seems like wherever I go, lately, people are telling me pregnancy
> horror stories. On Saturday, we went out for dinner with a book of
> baby names. I asked the waitress what she thought of a name we were
> discussing (I talk to strangers), and she launched into a horror story.

<snip>

It really is amazing just how many horror stories come out of the woodwork,
just when you're at your most vulnerable.



I actually become very defensive around Clare, and have 'insulted' a few
friends by telling them straight out not to upset her with bad luck stories.
I know it makes me seem heartless and I'm truly not, I have absolute
sympathy with anybody who has encountered difficult births, or worse loss,
but as first time parents we're stressed enough about what's the little
tinker is up-to in there, without irrationally worrying about whether a
tragedy that happened to somebody else is going to happen to us.




I know that according to John Gray women release their frustrations by
talking about them, (while men see frustrations as problems to be solved)
but surely there must be some sort of opt out card for pregnant women. Sort
of like a Monopoly get out of jail card, you show it and you get out of the
conversation!



I try to view such terrible stories by giving them a positive slant, the
obvious one being that the majority of people can and do move on and recover
to happy lives after their tragedy another way is to see that even the worst
tragedy there are supportive people who have experienced what you have and
are there to support you.



Again I think that's another reason why this group is so valuable; the
balance between joy and pain seems to my unpractised eye to be right. Even
when you're at lowest, there is somebody here who can empathise and give you
advice and support.



I know personally I'd be wearing a white coat with long arms which buckle
fetchingly at the back, if it wasn't for the likes of the Erickas, the
Chookies and yes the Amys of this list, giving us both good advice and
perspective.



My thanks, regards and hopes that you're not stressing



Bob

[[email protected]]

Robert Powell wrote:

> I know personally I'd be wearing a white coat with long arms which
buckle
> fetchingly at the back, if it wasn't for the likes of the Erickas,
the
> Chookies and yes the Amys of this list, giving us both good advice
and
> perspective.

Awwww... What a sweet thing to say! :)

I have read each of the posts in this thread very carefully, and I
really deeply appreciate all of the wonderful advice you all have given
me. I've learned a great deal.

Resolved: I will no longer randomly talk about the pregnancy with
strangers. (One would think that I would've figured this out,
considering that it took us two years to get pregnant, and I resented
all pregnant women everywhere for the last 8 months or so of it! :) )

Resolved: When people start to dish the horror stories, I will say
something pre-emptive, such as, "Gosh, I'm nervous enough - unless this
story is so happy that there are elves and fairies dancing around in
the background, I probably don't want to hear it..."

Resolved: If a story starts off with elves and fairies, and abruptly
takes a left turn into Freddy-Kruegerland, I will not be afraid to say,
"What do you think of that new Britney Spears song," or some other
attempt to change the subject that is so transparent that anyone with
half a brain will know that I don't want to hear anymore.

Resolved: If the abrupt left hand turn in the subject doesn't clue the
speaker in, I will say, "My goodness, would you look at the time?
Gotta run!" and bug out of there before my blood pressure starts to
rise.

Again, I really, really appreciate all the wonderful, caring advice you
all have given me.

Amy

[[email protected]]

Emily wrote:

> Thanks for thinking of me Amy :)

Your story has really touched me.

> You say you get horror stories all the time. How often are they
> stories about the person's own experience? If it's about someone
> other than the speaker, it should be easier to say, "I'm sorry, I
> really find it stressful to think about that right now."

9 times out of 10, they're about the speaker. I'm in a women's group
(actually on my way to a meeting now) and so I have the opportunity to
talk to lots and lots of other mothers. Fortunately, we only meet
twice a month. :)

Amy

[Crystal Dreamer]

> wrote:
> This is not a happy story. It's about someone who told me a very
> upsetting story, and I'm going to share the details because they
> affected how I responded. If you're at all sensitive about still
> births, miscarriages, or if you're at 22 weeks or less, think carefully
> before you read it. Hearing this story upset me, but that's why I'm
> posting it - to get advice about what I should've said for next time.
>
> I didn't have a stillbirth or a miscarriage - so if you would've read
> this because you thought something happened to me, you don't have to.
> I'm fine. :)
>

It seemed like an inappropriate setting for her to tell you the story, given
that she was your waitress, and you were her customer. However, you did
bring the subject of babies up. Major hospitals with advanced NICU's may
have tried to save the baby, but the majority probably wouldn't. My
hospital will not try to save a baby until 24 weeks, not based on weight,
but gestation.

In defense of the waitress, I think her intentions were not to scare you,
but to try to prevent what happened to her, from happening to you. If
something tragic happened to you, and you knew that someone else had a
chance of experiencing it as well, you probably would do the same thing. I
know this from experience, which is why I try to encourage as many pregnant
women as I can to do their kick counting, I try to stress the importance of
it, because it CAN save a baby's life. I'm sure that's what she was trying
to do, spare you from the pain.


--
-Lisa
Due September 2005
Mom to Aaron & Nicholas born 7/25/04
Mom to Mariam Averi, born sleeping 9/10/03
http://www.memoriesofmariam.com

[[email protected]]

Although I agree with kick counting, some baby's are just "lazy." My
daughter hardly moved at all during my entire pregnancy, I just got
used to it after a while. I could easily sit at my desk for 3 hours
and never feel a kick or any movement. I would have to poke her
several times in order to get a response.

So, no movement doesn't necessarily mean that something is wrong.
Every pregnancy is different.

KR,
mom to a 8 lb-11 oz healthy girl, 10/24/03

[Emily]

wrote:
> Emily wrote:
>
>
>>Thanks for thinking of me Amy :)
>
>
> Your story has really touched me.

Thanks. It really feels good when that happens.

>>You say you get horror stories all the time. How often are they
>>stories about the person's own experience? If it's about someone
>>other than the speaker, it should be easier to say, "I'm sorry, I
>>really find it stressful to think about that right now."
>
>
> 9 times out of 10, they're about the speaker. I'm in a women's group
> (actually on my way to a meeting now) and so I have the opportunity to
> talk to lots and lots of other mothers. Fortunately, we only meet
> twice a month. :)

Hm, that does make it harder. But I think you've gotten
good advice in this thread.

Emily
--
DS 5/02
EDD Labor Day 9/5/05

[Chookie]

In article >,
"Robert Powell" > wrote:

> I know personally I'd be wearing a white coat with long arms which buckle
> fetchingly at the back, if it wasn't for the likes of the Erickas, the
> Chookies and yes the Amys of this list, giving us both good advice and
> perspective.

<blush> I feel I am in exalted company!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article . com>,
" > wrote:

> So it seems like wherever I go, lately, people are telling me pregnancy
> horror stories. On Saturday, we went out for dinner with a book of
> baby names. I asked the waitress what she thought of a name we were
> discussing (I talk to strangers), and she launched into a horror story.
>
> Ignoring how totally stupid it was of me to talk to anyone about baby
> names (especially someone whose history I didn't know - that was
> thoughtless), what in the world should I have said??
<snip>
> seemed harsh. I couldn't find a way to change the subject. She stood
> at our table and talked to us for a good 10 minutes. On one hand it
> was good, because my husband thought I was exaggerating the stories of
> other women's horror stories - having him there to hear one first hand,
> and being able to say, "This happens to me every day!" really helped
> him understand why I come home in tears sometimes. On the other hand,
> it scared the crap out of me.
>
> I understand that this is sort of like a sorority hazing - that in
> order to be in the Mom Club we all have to walk through this emotional
> torture.
<rest snipped>

Firstly, I don't think that we all have to suffer emotional torture to get
into the Mums' Club. I don't believe I got horror stories like this when I
was PG with DS -- and I do remember getting some really lovely comments from
people about how much joy their children had brought to them. BTW, I also
have One of Those Faces.

I think you have to look carefully at how this started. You asked an innocent
question of a complete stranger, who turned out to be still suffering after a
series of increasingly traumatic losses. As a result, you copped her story,
which she *really* needed to tell someone. In this case, all you could do was
show as much sympathy as possible. Plainly, anyone who talked to her about
anything baby-related would get the same story, and telling your story *is*
important when something like this has happened (I've seen it happen amongst
my PE buddies IRL -- we meet periodically, and I've seen in myself and others
the intensity with which we relate our stories).

The only way to have avoided this situation is to have avoided asking her the
baby-related question in the first place.

I leave you to determine whether your sociable nature has been putting you in
the way of an excessive number of Baby Horror Stories!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Paula J]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 16:33:02 -0800, "Jamie Clark"
> wrote:

> You just
>can't know by looking at someone.

I so totally agree with you. In fact, I always knew that in my head
when I was really in the worst of the IF/loss stuff, but my heart
wouldn't hear it, you know? On good days, I could see pg women and be
OK, even happy. On bad days... well, I wouldn't have cared if she'd
told me that she went through 20 years of IF and 10 IVF cycles, I'd
still have been jealous and hateful. Not proud of many of my thoughts
and feelings during that time, but I can admit them.

I swear, sometimes I want to put signs on me and the girls
("IVF/ICSI/micropreemie miracles", "6 years infertility")... and other
times, it's really fun when other people just assume I'm miss fertile
myrtle, with twins and another on the way so close in age. Ah, how the
other half lives ;-)

--
Paula
Mom to Olivia and Cassie (b. 4/8/03 @ 26 weeks)
^Grace^ (b. 5/16/02 d. 5/17/02) and ^Adam^ (b/d. 5/17/02)
and a little BOY due 7/4/05 :-)