Kindergarten - my child "going postal" every morning...

[Kimberly]

Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
ripped my shirt on one occasion.

I've tried everything. I've tried being very firm with him (very),
closing the classroom door, etc. I've tried "talking" to him - nothing
works. I've tried dropping him off at the curb (they have a car
system where a teacher will walk the k'gartners to their class) and
its even worse.

Physically he's a big and strong kid, which doesn't help.

I'm at my wits end and have no idea what to do. His dad and I have
tried talking to him about it at home, but bottom line: when he gets
to the door of the classroom, he freaks out.

Please help!!

Going crazy and feeling sad -
Kim.

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes (Kimberly) wrote:

>Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
>kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
>him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
>ripped my shirt on one occasion.
>
>I've tried everything. I've tried being very firm with him (very),
>closing the classroom door, etc. I've tried "talking" to him - nothing
>works. I've tried dropping him off at the curb (they have a car
>system where a teacher will walk the k'gartners to their class) and
>its even worse.
>
>Physically he's a big and strong kid, which doesn't help.
>
>I'm at my wits end and have no idea what to do. His dad and I have
>tried talking to him about it at home, but bottom line: when he gets
>to the door of the classroom, he freaks out.
>
>Please help!!

I don't have much help for you, but my dd#2 did much the same thing.
What does the teacher say? Why does HE say he does it?

In my case, this was my second child and she was to walk to school (3
blocks with no cross traffic) with her older sister. I had a new
baby, and didn't want to walk with them every morning (I did go the
first day) as I considered it perfectly safe for the two of them to
walk down to the dead end of our street (which was only two blocks
long), turn left, walk another two blocks along the side of a salt
pond (which eliminated cross traffic) and cross the street at the
crosswalk with a crossing guard to the school.

My child didn't want to go. I would put her out the front door and
she'd kick and scream and beat on the door and cry. And her older
sister would be very worried and ask me what to do because she would
be late if she didn't leave. I told her to just go ahead and go, and
her sister would catch up to her. And then I'd go inside and lock the
door. DD#2 would continue to cry and pound on the door until her
sister would turn the corner, and then she would stop and run after
her and go on to school.

The teacher said later that for the first two weeks dd#2 sat in the
class and refused to participate in anything. She wouldn't play on
the playground. She wouldn't color. She just sat there stone faced.
Then she apparently decided she was going to have to go to school, and
she turned into a perfectly normal kindergarten child. So when I went
for the first parents night (about a month after school started),
everything was OK.

My older child had been in this same class with this same teacher so I
had no fears that the teacher was at fault, although I did have one
child that kept running away and playing hookey in 2nd grade and in
that case I blame the teacher as it never happened again. I did not
have much heartburn over her behavior. I was determined that she go
to school and did not admit to any other action being possible.


grandma Rosalie

[Noreen Cooper]

Kimberly > wrote:

: Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
: kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
: him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
: ripped my shirt on one occasion.

If your child has not shown this degree of separation anxiety before, I'd
make sure you volunteer to help out in the classroom ASAP. If for some
reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
what they perceive to be the problem.

What I have found in my travels as a frequent school volunteer is that
teachers are not perfect and fall prey to the same personality conflicts
we as adults have with other people. However, in the case of a teacher
having a poor personality fit with a student, the imbalance of power is
quite intense. Often times, active boys are particularly singled out as
problem students in kindergarten classrooms and school time can be pure
misery to them if they don't have a teacher who is able to handle their
hyperactivity well.

In addition to all that, I'd ask the teacher in a very non-threatening way
how things are going in the class. Don't always trust teachers when say
things are going well. Unless a child is ready to be sent to the
principal for incorrigible behaviour, some teachers will tell you
everything is going fine. Ask if the teacher has had to dole out any kind
of light punishment, such as time outs, for poor behaviour in the class.
Tell the teacher you want to work out any behaviour problems early on
before things get out of hand. Let the teacher know you're there to back
her up as a team in handling any problem behaviors your son might have in
the class but that you must be kept informed of your child's progress
each week.

I'd jump on this one right away. Now is the time to ask to change
teachers in the first week to find a better fit. Although unusual, there
are some teachers who are a poor fit in dealing with kindergarten
students.

And all this talk may be unnecessary if your child has always shown this
kind of separation anxiety. But if this kind of behavior was no evident
in preschool, you need to reevaluate the teacher and even maybe your son's
readiness for kindergarten if things don't resolve within the next few
weeks. Crying on the first day of kindergarten is normal. Crying for an
entire week and nearly tearing off the mom's shirt seems to speak of a
bigger problem than separation anxiety to me.

Noreen

[Penny Gaines]

Kimberly wrote in >:
[snip]
> Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
> kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
> him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
> ripped my shirt on one occasion.
[snip]

Is this the first time he has been in an organised setting like this,
or has he been to pre-school?

Has he acted at all like this when you have lft him in the past?

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Banty]

In article >, Noreen Cooper says...
>
>Kimberly > wrote:
>
>: Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
>: kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
>: him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
>: ripped my shirt on one occasion.
>
>If your child has not shown this degree of separation anxiety before, I'd
>make sure you volunteer to help out in the classroom ASAP.
>

Or the child's other parent can volunteer to help out in the classroom for this
scouting mission ...

>If for some
>reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
>another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
>what they perceive to be the problem.

... even if he doesn't volunteer 'quite regularly', no?

Banty (yep - I'm ever aware of the common presumptions, and think it useful to
point them out ...PIA I know ;-)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>Kimberly > wrote:
>
>: Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
>: kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
>: him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
>: ripped my shirt on one occasion.
>
>If your child has not shown this degree of separation anxiety before, I'd
>make sure you volunteer to help out in the classroom ASAP. If for some
>reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
>another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
>what they perceive to be the problem.
>
>What I have found in my travels as a frequent school volunteer is that
>teachers are not perfect and fall prey to the same personality conflicts
>we as adults have with other people.

While this is good advice, I'd caution the OP not to jump to the
conclusion that something must be terribly "wrong" in the school
situation to cause this reaction in her child. I had one who resisted
going to school for several years (sometimes very stronly), even though
by all accounts (including my personal observation of the classroom)
everything was fine and he loved it there. In his case it seemed to be
some combination of not wanting to have to move through the morning
routine in a timely manner (he was a definite dawdler) and resistance
to transitions (such as being dropped off at school). This happened
in multiple classes and none of the teachers could understand it. He
always had a great time once I'd been gone for 5 minutes.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Chris Himes]

(Kimberly) wrote in message >...
> Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
> kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
> him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
> ripped my shirt on one occasion.
>

I assume you have talked with the teacher???

My experience is that kindergarten teachers have been through things
like this and give you some ideas that fit your school's set-up,
rules, procedures, etc., as well as fit your child. The big questions
are, how is he at the end of the day? is this his first experience
away from home? Can you make a time after school for you and your son
to meet with the teacher and help him feel comfortable in the
classroom? Does he know other kids in his class? Can you invite some
over for playtime so he has some familiar faces around?

Chris

[Bev Brandt]

Banty > wrote in message >...
> In article >, Noreen Cooper says...
> >
> >Kimberly > wrote:
> >
> >: Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
> >: kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
> >: him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
> >: ripped my shirt on one occasion.
> >
> >If your child has not shown this degree of separation anxiety before, I'd
> >make sure you volunteer to help out in the classroom ASAP.
> >
>
> Or the child's other parent can volunteer to help out in the classroom for this
> scouting mission ...
>
> >If for some
> >reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
> >another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
> >what they perceive to be the problem.
>
> .. even if he doesn't volunteer 'quite regularly', no?
>
> Banty (yep - I'm ever aware of the common presumptions, and think it useful to
> point them out ...PIA I know ;-)

I'm even more of a PIA. I would go one further and say that it is the
school's responsibility to help with this. I'd say that asking a
parent - any parent, really - to "volunteer regularly" is asking a
volunteer to do what paid professionals are supposed to do: evaluate
your child, educate them intellectually and socially, comfort them
when needed, etc.

Of course, my husband and I WOH, so that very likely skews my
perception of what it means to be asked to "volunteer regularly." It's
not that my child isn't worth my vacation and sick time. But that *is*
all some of us have - limited vacation and sick time. We *can't*
"volunteer regularly" or we'll get fired. So it's a choice between
volunteering and feeding our children, clothing them, paying the
mortgage.

Anyway...enough ranting. School is starting right after Labor Day for
me and my oldest has "issues." "Issues" that the counselor has
suggested could be helped if I "volunteered regularly." Thus my rant
proclivity.

- Bev

[Banty]

In article >, Bev Brandt says...

>Anyway...enough ranting. School is starting right after Labor Day for
>me and my oldest has "issues." "Issues" that the counselor has
>suggested could be helped if I "volunteered regularly." Thus my rant
>proclivity.
>
>- Bev
>

Ah, yes - the breezy, cheerily offered suggestions to "volunteer regularly", the
school secretary who called HOME with all questions or problems then complained
about my inaccessibility until I took to circling my WORK number twice in red
ink and pointing two red arrows to it on the information forms, the "we'd like
your son to show his science fair project at class this morning, but please come
by at 3:15 dismissal to pick it up" - I know the elementary educational
establishments utter denseness about working mothers well.

Banty

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Banty > wrote:

> In article >, Bev Brandt
> says...
>
> >Anyway...enough ranting. School is starting right after Labor Day for
> >me and my oldest has "issues." "Issues" that the counselor has
> >suggested could be helped if I "volunteered regularly." Thus my rant
> >proclivity.
> >
> >- Bev
> >
>
> Ah, yes - the breezy, cheerily offered suggestions to "volunteer regularly",
> the
> school secretary who called HOME with all questions or problems then
> complained
> about my inaccessibility until I took to circling my WORK number twice in red
> ink and pointing two red arrows to it on the information forms, the "we'd
> like
> your son to show his science fair project at class this morning, but please
> come
> by at 3:15 dismissal to pick it up" - I know the elementary educational
> establishments utter denseness about working mothers well.
>
> Banty
>

It gets worse in some ways: there have been several times when the
school needed to reach me, tried me at home and at a work number -- then
left my kid in the nurses office for the rest of the day when they
couldn't reach me, instead of calling their Dad! (I was told that they
hate to bother men at work; this was less than 10 years ago, and I was,
frankly, too stunned to even respond.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[just me]

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> Ah, yes - the breezy, cheerily offered suggestions to "volunteer
regularly", the
> school secretary who called HOME with all questions or problems then
complained
> about my inaccessibility until I took to circling my WORK number twice in
red
> ink and pointing two red arrows to it on the information forms, the "we'd
like
> your son to show his science fair project at class this morning, but
please come
> by at 3:15 dismissal to pick it up" - I know the elementary educational
> establishments utter denseness about working mothers well.
>

My favorite is when you give them your current location phone number because
they say they are going to call you back shortly, but then they go and look
up your home phone number and can't understand why they only get the
answering machine. Doctors, schools, and others are all guilty.

-Aula

[Iowacookiemom]

In article >,
Kimberly > wrote:
>I've tried everything. I've tried being very firm with him (very),
>closing the classroom door, etc. I've tried "talking" to him - nothing
>works. I've tried dropping him off at the curb (they have a car
>system where a teacher will walk the k'gartners to their class) and
>its even worse.

Poor guy -- and poor you! We've been through this a few times for various
reasons and it is absolutely heart-wrenching. Once, it was a new school.
Another time, it was a teacher who was just absolutely not the right fit for
Henry, and after sticking it out for a while (she was not abusive, although the
particular mix of her personality with his, along with the mix of his inability
to pick up nonverbal signals (a part of his ADD) and her temporary hearing
loss, was darned-near emotionally abusive for him -- and probably her too!). I
do think that each time we've handled it a little better than the time before,
and he's developed a resilience over time.

There has been some excellent advice here that I won't repeat in detail.
Absolutely ask the school for help, and absolutely find a way to verify that
there is no hidden, horrific reason for his outbursts (I'm not sure I'd have a
parent volunteer -- that would exacerbate the separation anxiety -- do you
trust a fellow parent to do this surveilance?)

I have a few additional thoughts:

-Be absolutely sure you are instilling confidence in him. Hard as it is, don't
make the mistake of joining his pity party. This is tricky. When our kids are
that upset we naturally want to just scoop them up and love them to death. But
that sends a message that we, too, are worried they can't succeed in the
situation. An excellent counselor and a patient, loving spouse had to
practically hit me over the head to get this one through to me -- I was either
furiously stern or weepily nurturing, with very little in-between. Let him
know you get the message without being gushy. Phrases like, "I can see how
upset you are. It's hard for you do do this, but I know you can do it. You're
a great kid and a strong person, and you're going to be successful in school."
(rinse, repeat, as needed) Another way to help him do this is through giving
him a vision: "It's hard for you now, but I know by Halloween you will have
some good friends and it will be exciting for you to come to school to see them
every day." Or, share your own experience. "I remember when I started
Kindergarten I was afraid I would not be able to remember all the rules the
teacher had for us. But in a few weeks, I didn't even have to think about the
rules because they came naturally. You're a good kid and I know you'll get
very used to following the rules in a short time." Keep telling yourself,
"what am I doing to help him feel confident and capable?"

-In a calm moment later in the day, review what happened and ask your *child*
what you can do to help prevent it in the future. What would make it easier
for him? And then (this is the hard part for me) -- *be quiet* and *really
listen* to the answer. You might get nonsense at first "Don't send me to
school," or you might get things you aren't willing/able to do, like "Billy's
mom home-schools him, you should do that too," but you can review your reasons
why those solutions won't work and redirect him back to "You're going to need
to go to school every day and right now it's so hard. How can we make it
easier?" Take him up on any reasonable suggestion, even if it's that he is
convinced that strawberry poptarts for breakfast would make him feel better.
The reason for this is that he probably feels so out of control in this and you
can hand him back some control.

-When he has successes, praise him, but don't make such a huge deal of it that
it sends the unconscious message that you're completely surprised that he was
able to do it. I think it was Tom Landry who said that he didn't like end-zone
celebrations because he wanted his players to "act like they've been there
before" when they made a touchdown. Same here -- help him feel good but let
him know, too, that you knew he could do it all along.

On this last vein, my husband and I have two new neat little communication
tricks that we picked up on various reading/news program listening. The one I
heard was that while adults shy away from telling fellow *adults* how to feel,
it's actually quite helpful to coach your children on this. "You did well this
morning! You should be proud!" Kids need help learning appropriate reactions
and we're allowed to help. The one my husband learned was to not just gush to
kids individually, but let them know how their actions help others. Instead of
"good for you for being ready to leave the house on time this morning!" try
"thanks for being ready on time. It helps me get to work on time, and when I
do that I can come home earlier so that everyone in our family can enjoy more
time together."

FWIW we find all of this has been very helpful. And, I'm happy to report,
Henry has had an incredibly positive first two days in a new school, new
community 1500 miles from his old school. I'd like to think some of these
lessons learned -- both through experience over the years and through experts
over the media -- have played a role, but I know it really came down to his
choice to try to make it work. In the end, you need to find a way to help your
son make that same choice. Good luck to you in the meantime. It's such a
bummer.

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[Penny Gaines]

dragonlady wrote in
>:
[snip]
> It gets worse in some ways: there have been several times when the
> school needed to reach me, tried me at home and at a work number -- then
> left my kid in the nurses office for the rest of the day when they
> couldn't reach me, instead of calling their Dad! (I was told that they
> hate to bother men at work; this was less than 10 years ago, and I was,
> frankly, too stunned to even respond.)


Do the school just have the parents' numbers? Over here, the schools my
kids go to have always asked for numbers for other people, in case the
parents are unavailable. So, in the situation described, they would have
tried me, and then tried the other alternative numbers.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[iowacookiemom]

(Bev Brandt) wrote in message >...
> Of course, my husband and I WOH, so that very likely skews my
> perception of what it means to be asked to "volunteer regularly." It's
> not that my child isn't worth my vacation and sick time. But that *is*
> all some of us have - limited vacation and sick time. We *can't*
> "volunteer regularly" or we'll get fired.

I agree completely that many schools/teachers are insensitive to this.
I've found that fellow parents can be even more insensitive.

That said, when Henry started school I asked my sister, a teacher,
what I could do as a working parent who had limited vacation time,
etc. (I did have a good boss who was flexible with me, but I
preferred to use that good will for after-school needs.)

My sister had a great suggestion, and I've done it every year since:
volunteer to grade the spelling tests. It's time-consuming and
tedious for the teacher, and usually has to be done over a weekend.
Henry brings the tests home on Friday and I grade them over the
weekend -- takes about a half hour of my time. Henry has always
seemed very proud that I do this, and even willingly toted the
25-or-so *spiral notebooks* the last two years that contained the
spelling tests. I involve him in picking out stickers to put on each
test and teachers have told me the kids are great about saying, "your
mom got cool stickers this week, Henry!"

I started out doing this for the teacher, and all have been very
grateful, but I keep doing it for my kid. It connects me to the
school and he seems proud of it. I'm planning on asking his new
teacher if I can continue this year.

One caveat: by doing this you do have access to the academic progress
of the students, and when I have mentioned this casually some parents
have looked a little surprised and slightly bothered by the fact that
I see their child's test each week. Truthfully, beyond learning who
you can rely on to get all or most words right (this is helpful in
weeks when the words are confusing like "there/their/they're" and
you're unsure what order the teacher read them in), you really don't
pay attention to individual kids' scores. I never share the scores
with Henry, and also get teacher approval in advance to share Henry's
own score with him (all have allowed me to do so).

Henry struggles with spelling and having this connection to spelling
at school has also been helpful.

All of this is just to provide an idea -- not to suggest that anyone
out there frustrated about school expectations regarding volunteering
is somehow off-base.

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Penny Gaines > wrote:

> dragonlady wrote in
> >:
> [snip]
> > It gets worse in some ways: there have been several times when the
> > school needed to reach me, tried me at home and at a work number -- then
> > left my kid in the nurses office for the rest of the day when they
> > couldn't reach me, instead of calling their Dad! (I was told that they
> > hate to bother men at work; this was less than 10 years ago, and I was,
> > frankly, too stunned to even respond.)
>
>
> Do the school just have the parents' numbers? Over here, the schools my
> kids go to have always asked for numbers for other people, in case the
> parents are unavailable. So, in the situation described, they would have
> tried me, and then tried the other alternative numbers.


At the time, I was too new in town to have had any other numbers to give
them -- but since they didn't even go far enough down the list to call
the kids' Dad, I can't imagine that they'd have called someone else!

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>One caveat: by doing this you do have access to the academic progress
>of the students, and when I have mentioned this casually some parents
>have looked a little surprised and slightly bothered by the fact that
>I see their child's test each week. Truthfully, beyond learning who
>you can rely on to get all or most words right (this is helpful in
>weeks when the words are confusing like "there/their/they're" and
>you're unsure what order the teacher read them in), you really don't
>pay attention to individual kids' scores.

In any case, poor spelling means almost nothing about the child's general
ability, so I would have no particular qualms about someone knowing my child
didn't spell so well.

It did bother me a little when I got math homework back that was corrected by
the parents (I know it was, because I sometimes did this job when I volunteered
in class) -- especially when they had marked correct answers incorrect, and
vice versa!

--Helen

[Cathy Kearns]

"Penny Gaines" > wrote in message
...
> dragonlady wrote in
> >:
> [snip]
> > It gets worse in some ways: there have been several times when the
> > school needed to reach me, tried me at home and at a work number -- then
> > left my kid in the nurses office for the rest of the day when they
> > couldn't reach me, instead of calling their Dad! (I was told that they
> > hate to bother men at work; this was less than 10 years ago, and I was,
> > frankly, too stunned to even respond.)
>
>
> Do the school just have the parents' numbers? Over here, the schools my
> kids go to have always asked for numbers for other people, in case the
> parents are unavailable. So, in the situation described, they would have
> tried me, and then tried the other alternative numbers.

So in the UK they would call the emergency numbers before calling
their father?

[MarjiG]

In article >, Banty >
writes:

>I know the elementary educational
>establishments utter denseness about working mothers well.

Try them on a stay at home father sometime.

School nurse: DD#2 must be picked up from school.

Me, at work 30 miles away: Did you call her Dad, at home?

Nurse: No, I think Moms are better at this.

This was for a kid with a cold sore.
-Marjorie

[Iowacookiemom]

>At the time, I was too new in town to have had any other numbers to give
>them --

Does anyone have suggestions regarding this? We are brand, spanking new in our
new community -- been here 5 whole weeks. My husband is reluctant to ask work
friends to be our emergency contact since most of the folks he's gotten to know
work *for* him and it seems like an unfair request from a supervisor to a
subordinate. We haven't yet found a church, and we barely know neighbors. Has
anyone out there solved this creatively?

[Beeswing]

"Bev Brandt" > wrote in message
m...

> I'm thinking of suggesting to the PTO that we have some sort of
> working parent educational committee. The mission of which will be to
> help the school staff communicate with the working parent. Problem is,
> they'll want me to head up the committee...

Naah, tell them your husband can head up the committee. He's closer and
more mobile. :)

beeswing

[Karen G]

I don't really like doing it, but I have put our emergency contacts down
as my in-laws who are "states" away. I am upfront with people who I
give those numbers too.

Karen

[Bev Brandt]

(iowacookiemom) wrote in message >...

> All of this is just to provide an idea -- not to suggest that anyone
> out there frustrated about school expectations regarding volunteering
> is somehow off-base.
>
> -Dawn
> Mom to Henry, 10

I do believe that you can't change anything if you're not involved.
I've done something similar. My biggest complaint the first year of
school for my oldest was the lack of communication between the school
and parents. (Exacerbated in my case because both parents in our
family WOH.)

So I volunteered as a part of the communications committee on our PTO.
I'm in charge of the PTO web site, so I'm a conduit for all sorts of
information like the calendar of events, which fundraisers are when,
and who is in charge of what. I'm also in charge of the school's "buzz
book," so now I'll be able to put names to faces I hope. Another more
personal thing that has always bothered me - I'm one of those horrible
people who can't remember names. Maybe working on this directory will
help me.

And I'm halfway serious about at least suggesting a PTO/school staff
meeting about communicating with the working parent, if not a
committee decidated to aiding communications. Plus, my PTO has now
come up with "job descriptions" of committee members. I think this
helps working parents see what's involved in a given volunteer
opportunity, letting them choose volunteer positions that fit well
with their work hours and skills.

Plus after saying these not so nice things about school staff...I'm
seriously considering getting my teaching certificate. Specifically in
Art, k-12. Which would be a HUGE career change for me, but I won't
digress into that. This year I plan to ask the art teacher how I can
help her in a similar way that you've done, Dawn. Either after hours,
on weekends or on the rare day that I have off and the school does
not. A kind of distance-career-shadowing.

- Bev

[Noreen Cooper]

Banty > wrote:

:>If for some
:>reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
:>another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
:>what they perceive to be the problem.

: .. even if he doesn't volunteer 'quite regularly', no?

: Banty (yep - I'm ever aware of the common presumptions, and think it
: useful to point them out ...PIA I know ;-)

Sure, that's exactly why I used the word "parent" rather than "mother."
What a strange twist this thread took. I know there are parents who can
never physically help out in the classroom but they help out in many other
ways, either by participating in school fundraisers or by helping the
teacher after hours. However, it behooves those working parents who can
never or have no inclination to be present during the school day to seek
out parents who actively volunteer in the class if their child is having a
hard time adjusting either to school or a particular teacher to get a
second, third, or fourth opinion on what may be the perceived problem.

When it comes to those gift wrap fundraising sales, the reigning queen is
a working mom who could care less about ever stepping a foot in the
classroom, whether she could get off work or not. We all do our part.
But were I to become a full-time working mother tomorrow, I'd be damn sure
to seek out the SAH parents who are in the class every week. There's no
better review about a teacher and the classroom dynamics than by being
there yourself. But if that's impossible, asking someone else who is
there at least once a week is the next best thing. And asking two or
three other parents who volunteer in the classroom is even better still.

But I know firsthand (eyeroll) some working and at-home parents keep alive
the WP vs. SAHP rivalry. I got past that one long ago. I can name at
least three at-home parents who'd never step foot to help out in the
classroom. By virtue of working out of the house for a living doesn't
completely factor into the formula of school volunteerism. If it's not
your bag, baby (Austin Powers accent), I'm not the one to tell you off
about it.

Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
might judge you. ;-)

Noreen

[just me]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...


> Anyone can make mistakes, in proportion to the time and effort expended
> to the task. It doesn't seem to me that the time and effort necessary
> to get five or six nines of reliability are really appropriate for this
> particular task. Why would the occasional error bother you so much? It
> seems like a good opportunity to introduce your child to the concept of
> fallibility, and I'd rather have the teacher or assistant make
> occasional mistakes, but have more time for other instructional tasks
> that seem more important to me, rather than spend twice as much time on
> it just to eliminate the rare possibility of error.
>


If having the volunteer parents take home the children's tests and homework
to correct and grade them actually does increase teacher instructional time
in the classroom then perhaps an occassional error can be overlooked, at
least in the first few primary grades. After that, however, some children
will be in danger of having points off cumes that effect their college
placement opportunities and, really, the volunteers should be able to take
the time to complete the jobs they have offered to do well or stop doing it.

-Aula, marveling that teachers farm out correcting tests and school work

[Banty]

In article >, Noreen Cooper says...
>
>Banty > wrote:
>
>:>If for some
>:>reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
>:>another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
>:>what they perceive to be the problem.
>
>: .. even if he doesn't volunteer 'quite regularly', no?
>
>: Banty (yep - I'm ever aware of the common presumptions, and think it
>: useful to point them out ...PIA I know ;-)
>
>Sure, that's exactly why I used the word "parent" rather than "mother."

You said that the OP, the mother should volunteer in the classroom, and if she
couldn't, it should be another parent there regularly. Still, it seems to be
the Mom who is supposed to be doing the volunteering, else, somebody *else's*
parent. Still kinda leaves someone out for most families. So it really doesn't
change my point.


>
>Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
>might judge you. ;-)
>

I do absolutely nothing to help out my local schools (not timewise anyway). So
fire away. I volunteer to help other facets of the community. I agree with Bev.
The schools need to be doing their job, and not pinning shortcomings on
non-volunteering parents.

Banty

[David desJardins]

Aula writes:
> If having the volunteer parents take home the children's tests and
> homework to correct and grade them actually does increase teacher
> instructional time in the classroom then perhaps an occassional error
> can be overlooked, at least in the first few primary grades. After
> that, however, some children will be in danger of having points off
> cumes that effect their college placement opportunities and, really,
> the volunteers should be able to take the time to complete the jobs
> they have offered to do well or stop doing it.

I can't imagine thinking that having answers marked wrong on your
elementary school homework is going to affect your college placement
opportunities. There's something really wrong with an educational
system where people are thinking that way. But, if that really does
worry you, all you have to do is point out the incorrect markings and
get the grade corrected.

David desJardins

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, David desJardins wrote:
> Kevin Karplus writes:
>> It would bother me a LOT to have incorrectly graded homework returned
>> to the students.
>
> Anyone can make mistakes, in proportion to the time and effort expended
> to the task. It doesn't seem to me that the time and effort necessary
> to get five or six nines of reliability are really appropriate for this
> particular task. Why would the occasional error bother you so much? It
> seems like a good opportunity to introduce your child to the concept of
> fallibility, and I'd rather have the teacher or assistant make
> occasional mistakes, but have more time for other instructional tasks
> that seem more important to me, rather than spend twice as much time on
> it just to eliminate the rare possibility of error.

An occassional flub would not bother me, as long as the teacher had
the grace to admit the mistake and quickly correct it. I'd prefer
that to what I did see last year---homework collected every week, but
often not graded for several weeks (returned ungraded, and the
homework folder collected again the next week).

I have heard horror stories from other parents (not, luckily, from my
school) where mid-elementary teachers were mis-teaching and
mis-grading math---to the point where parents had to take over the
teaching as a volunteer activity, to keep the whole class from being
badly hurt by a year of really bad teaching. THAT scares me.

On the original thread---volunteering in the classroom---I agree that
not everyone can arrange their workday to manage it, but it does
provide a tremendous amount of information about classroom dynamics,
the teacher's style, the other kids in the class, and so forth that is
almost impossible to obtain in other ways. I hope to be able to
arrange my schedule this year to be able to volunteer an hour a week
in the classroom. I did some of that last year (providing math
enrichment activities for 3-5 students while the rest did the regular
math) and learned a fair amount about the range of learning styles and
abilities in the class.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
"just me" > wrote:
>
>"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Anyone can make mistakes, in proportion to the time and effort expended
>> to the task. It doesn't seem to me that the time and effort necessary
>> to get five or six nines of reliability are really appropriate for this
>> particular task. Why would the occasional error bother you so much? It
>> seems like a good opportunity to introduce your child to the concept of
>> fallibility, and I'd rather have the teacher or assistant make
>> occasional mistakes, but have more time for other instructional tasks
>> that seem more important to me, rather than spend twice as much time on
>> it just to eliminate the rare possibility of error.
>>
>If having the volunteer parents take home the children's tests and homework
>to correct and grade them actually does increase teacher instructional time
>in the classroom then perhaps an occassional error can be overlooked, at
>least in the first few primary grades. After that, however, some children
>will be in danger of having points off cumes that effect their college
>placement opportunities and, really, the volunteers should be able to take
>the time to complete the jobs they have offered to do well or stop doing it.
>
>-Aula, marveling that teachers farm out correcting tests and school work

One of the ways my dd#1 earned her college money was by grading math
tests for the professors. And I am convinced that I got a better
grade on my philosophy final than I otherwise would have because I
typed some of the essays written by the student who did this
professor's grading for him so he could submit them to grad school (we
didn't have computers or copy machines then - it was a typewriter and
carbon paper). I think doing that gave me the vocabulary and way of
writing so I could write an appropriate essay. Although it has just
occurred to me that maybe the student graded my exams and gave me a
better grade because he knew me.

I never farmed out my stuff to be graded, but a) I wasn't an
elementary school teacher, and b) by then we had scantron

One of the ways dd#1 volunteered (and she was a WOHM) in addition to
being treasurer of the PTA was to do the overdue books for the library
- she'd go pick up the material one afternoon a week and take it home
and write the slips up. She did have a job where she didn't bring
work home with her.

grandma Rosalie

[Banty]

In article >, Noreen Cooper says...
>
>Banty > wrote:
>:
>** You said that the OP, the mother should volunteer in the classroom, and
>if she : couldn't, it should be another parent there regularly. Still, it
>seems to be : the Mom who is supposed to be doing the volunteering, else,
>somebody *else's* : parent. Still kinda leaves someone out for most
>families. So it really doesn't : change my point. **
>
>Ah, so you're saying I should have made an assumption that the OP was
>married and that her husband should be the one helping out in the
>classroom instead? Is that what you're taking exception to?
>

Nope. I said nothing about marriage. Just about always there are two parents,
though. Certainly common enough not to assume otherwise.

>: I do absolutely nothing to help out my local schools (not timewise
>: anyway). So
>
>My point is that people can help the schools in many ways. So what do you
>mean by (not timewise anyway)? Do you ever contribute to fundraisers at
>your local school? If so, then you are helping out.

Nope. Don't do the school fundraisers - frankly, I think they're a crock. I do
give new books directly to the library, though. But I certainly don't get with
the program of the wrapper-buying, PTA-committe attending, classroom-cookie
baking mommie.

>
>My parents never helped out at the schools but I was usually a straight A
>student and rarely a behavior problem in the classroom. I can also
>understand that POV of not helping out, even though my son receives top
>marks for academics and citizenship and still I volunteer at least twice a
>week. But the whole point of the volunteerism suggestion is the OP's son
>is having trouble at school. To blame your child's failure in school for
>any reason and to not get involved in any way, to only blame the teachers
>and say they should be doing their job, that's rather unproductive, IMO.


The parent should be involved as an advocate of their child if necessary. To
deal with the teacher well and honestly concerning their own child. To pay
taxes, and to have a child attend who is healthy and ready to learn, and
non-disruptive. They might do the volunteering if they wish; if they think that
is the best direction to put their energies, but there is no obligation (save
for some private schools that have a specific understanding with parents) at all
to do it. Not if they have a straight-A kid, or one who is a straight-D kid.

Banty

[Banty]

In article >, Noreen Cooper says...
>
>Marion Baumgarten > wrote:
>
>: Hmm...I guess paying your property taxes and making sure your kids come
>: ready school ready to learn isn't enough.
>
>Do you ever participate in school fundraisers, Marion? Do you go to
>parent-teacher meetings each quarter? Have you ever sat in on a PTA
>meeting? Have you ever participated in a school auction?
>

>Why are so many people getting so overly defensive on whether or not they
>show up in the classroom and *especially* since I bet most parents do one
>of the above at least once in their child's school years.
>
>A bigger question: how are your kids doing in school? If they are doing
>well, then you probably have no need to sit in and watch (or hear
>secondhand) what's going on in the classroom.

I think the resistance you're running into is resentment of the idea that All
Good Parents volunteer (which was Bev's complaint) or even that one should
volunteer if one's child isn't an academically bright or successful student.
That's independant of whether or not any particular parent does decide to
volunteer. I certainly chafe at the idea that I *should* do something that I do
not out of obligation but for altruistic reasons, even though I *do*.

>
>I applaud all the things you do for your community. Good for you. But if
>you think only paying property taxes is going to help a child of yours who
>is failing in school in some way, that is extremely short-sighted and
>that's the point. Do we need to argue over that?

Um, yeah! - that's not a trivial assertion!

There are ways that IMO a parent does have an obligaton to help their child in
such a situation. Being a free hand for the school simply is not one of them.

>For that is the whole
>point of what I've been arguing this entire time. And the best way to
>find out exactly what is going on in the classroom is to volunteer or seek
>out another parent or two or three who are doing so.

This is part of the problem with the communication here. You're conflating
altruistic volunteering for the school with what you originally proposed as a
scouting mission for one's own child's sake.

I'm not saying that that's a *bad* idea - I do think it can be key in certain
situations to do something like that if one can. But then there is what is IMO
some unreasonable expectation that parents have some level of obligation to
volunteer, and even that the school's mission should normally be defined such
that it can rely on labor from the parents aside from their basic obligations
vis a vis their own child. Both are mistaken in my view.

Banty

[Scott Lindstrom]

x-no-archive:yes

> (Kevin Karplus) wrote:
>
>
>>In article >, H Schinske wrote:
>>
>>>It did bother me a little when I got math homework back that was corrected by
>>>the parents (I know it was, because I sometimes did this job when I volunteered
>>>in class) -- especially when they had marked correct answers incorrect, and
>>>vice versa!
>
>
> My dad used to let us grade the medical student's anatomy practical
> for the exam he gave just before Xmas break while we were in the car
> going to my grandmothers for the holidays. We were about 9 and 11.
> He gave us the possible or part right answers, and if it wasn't one of
> those answers, we'd ask him. He would (especially for the
> spectacularly wrong ones) groan and tell us what part credit to give.

I also helped my Dad grade undergraduate biology papers
when I was in grade school. It's only a vague memory,
but I think they were multiple choice questions. I'm sure
all the argumentative undergraduates would check to see
if I did my job properly. I seem to recall a nickel
or dime a sheet.

> So do the parents grading the homework not have the correct answers on
> an answer sheet?

In my experience, no.

Scott, DD 10 and DS 7

[chiam margalit]

(iowacookiemom) wrote in message >...
> (Bev Brandt) wrote in message >...
> > Of course, my husband and I WOH, so that very likely skews my
> > perception of what it means to be asked to "volunteer regularly." It's
> > not that my child isn't worth my vacation and sick time. But that *is*
> > all some of us have - limited vacation and sick time. We *can't*
> > "volunteer regularly" or we'll get fired.
>
> I agree completely that many schools/teachers are insensitive to this.
> I've found that fellow parents can be even more insensitive.
>
> That said, when Henry started school I asked my sister, a teacher,
> what I could do as a working parent who had limited vacation time,
> etc. (I did have a good boss who was flexible with me, but I
> preferred to use that good will for after-school needs.)
>
> My sister had a great suggestion, and I've done it every year since:
> volunteer to grade the spelling tests. It's time-consuming and
> tedious for the teacher, and usually has to be done over a weekend.
> Henry brings the tests home on Friday and I grade them over the
> weekend -- takes about a half hour of my time. Henry has always
> seemed very proud that I do this, and even willingly toted the
> 25-or-so *spiral notebooks* the last two years that contained the
> spelling tests. I involve him in picking out stickers to put on each
> test and teachers have told me the kids are great about saying, "your
> mom got cool stickers this week, Henry!"
>
> I started out doing this for the teacher, and all have been very
> grateful, but I keep doing it for my kid. It connects me to the
> school and he seems proud of it. I'm planning on asking his new
> teacher if I can continue this year.
>
> One caveat: by doing this you do have access to the academic progress
> of the students, and when I have mentioned this casually some parents
> have looked a little surprised and slightly bothered by the fact that
> I see their child's test each week. Truthfully, beyond learning who
> you can rely on to get all or most words right (this is helpful in
> weeks when the words are confusing like "there/their/they're" and
> you're unsure what order the teacher read them in), you really don't
> pay attention to individual kids' scores. I never share the scores
> with Henry, and also get teacher approval in advance to share Henry's
> own score with him (all have allowed me to do so).

While I praise you for trying to find a way to be involved in the
classroom, I'd be furious if I found that parents were grading
tests/papers/projects/schoolwork for teachers. First, this is part of
the teacher's job and there is no reason on earth that they can't do
it. As a former teacher I know all the canned lines about how hard
teaching is (it is) and how many extra hours teachers work (they do)
but grading papers is an essential part of their job and should never
be done by anyone else.

Second, the confidentiality issue would put me over the edge. I would
never want ANY other parent to know what my children are doihg
workwise in school. It's not their business, and there is a part of me
that wonders about the legality of this serious breach of
confidentiality. Parents DO tend to gossip (I'm not saying you're a
gossip, but if you're doing this, so are other parents, and if they
are, they're possibly not as honest and decent as you, Dawn) and do
tend to report on other kids in the class, and I'd be so upset if
parents were discussing my child's progress.

Third, I've read right here on the net the 'musings' of one SAHD who
volunteers in his kid's class and reports the stupidity and lack of
progress of one kid he works with. I find this beyond disgusting. No
parent volunteer has the right to discuss a child in his volunteer
group on the internet. And I wonder about the motives of any parent
who thinks this is a good idea, as so many do (not on this newsgroup,
of course).

Fourth, once your children reach middle school age, all of this is
moot. They don't have parent volunteers in the middle school
classrooms, thank goodness, and the parental competition dies on the
vine. You can, and most do, volunteer for the special projects and
events that come up during the school year, but this does not in any
way impinge on working parents. Me, I do the Boxtops for Education
every year. It's a simple job, it takes almost no effort on my part,
and raises thousands of dollars for the PTO. That is pretty much the
extent of my relationship with our middle school.

Lastly, I strongly believe that most parents are absolutely clueless
about the goings on in the classroom even if they're there day after
day. I know from putting two very different kids through elementary
school that the parents who are constantly there day after day
volunteering to do this and that inside the classrooms are the people
who use this as their social life during school hours. When I did
volunteer in our day school years back, I saw the same group of moms
who never left the campus. They were always there to 'help' but the
help usually consisted of chatting with the other volunteers in the
back of the room, and working in group settings on projects where
there was little possibility of gaining insight into the
individualized educational progress of any child. Mostly there were
there to provide control for more freeform activities. An example
would be a mother who was there for her son day after day after day,
but had no clue that her son's learning differences were so severe
until an educational consultant came to look at the classrooms and
took her aside. This mother was not only a trained teacher, she taught
that very grade for over 10 years and yet she hadn't a clue about her
own child's progress.

Parent volunteering is, imo, really more about the social aspects of
parenting school age children than it is about helping to teach. I
don't have a problem with this, I think it's probably a much better
idea than allowing parents access to graded projects, tests, etc. The
lack of knowledge about what is and should be going on in a classroom
needs to be recognized for what it is: goodhearted and well meaning
parents who want to make the classroom a better environment for their
children. That's not a bad thing at all, it's commendable at all
levels. But putting education of children other than your own into a
volunteer's hands is definately a bad thing in my opinion. YMMV.

Marjorie
>
> Henry struggles with spelling and having this connection to spelling
> at school has also been helpful.
>
> All of this is just to provide an idea -- not to suggest that anyone
> out there frustrated about school expectations regarding volunteering
> is somehow off-base.
>
> -Dawn
> Mom to Henry, 10

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >,
chiam margalit wrote:
> Parent volunteering is, imo, really more about the social aspects of
> parenting school age children than it is about helping to teach. I
> don't have a problem with this, I think it's probably a much better
> idea than allowing parents access to graded projects, tests, etc. The
> lack of knowledge about what is and should be going on in a classroom
> needs to be recognized for what it is: goodhearted and well meaning
> parents who want to make the classroom a better environment for their
> children. That's not a bad thing at all, it's commendable at all
> levels. But putting education of children other than your own into a
> volunteer's hands is definately a bad thing in my opinion. YMMV.

I can't speak for other volunteers, but my volunteering for the school
has nothing to do with the social aspects of it---I'm not a
particularly sociable person, and the other parents around the school
are not necessarily who I would choose to socialize with.

Some of the things I've done in the last couple of years:

In kindergarten, supervising students doing various craft
projects---this was mainly making sure they knew what they were trying
to do and gently bringing them back on task when they got distracted.
Decreasing the child/adult ratio in the classroom makes it easier for
the teacher to focus on the kids who need the most help.

In kindergarten, sitting individually with children listening to them
struggle with beginning reading and helping them sound out words they
were having trouble with. (This was exactly what the teacher was
doing also---having two adults doing it meant twice as many students
were getting reading help that day.)

In first grade, doing a monthly art newsletter. This involved
collecting art from all the kids in two classrooms, choosing which to
include, scanning them, laying out the newsletter on my computer,
printing 50 copies, folding, and saddle-stapling them. I had another
parent help me with the collecting art and choosing which to
include---she also kept track of which kids' art we had already used,
so that we could be sure to be fair to the kids. This newsletter took
a lot of my time (10-12 hours an issue, which pretty much killed a
weekend a month). If parent volunteers had not been given access to
the student work, then the art newsletter would not have happened, and
the kids would not have seen their own work printed and distributed.

In first grade, doing a 45-minute-a-week math enrichment session for
the kids who were ahead of the rest of the class. Another parent did a
similar math enrichment once a week also. We did a variety of
different things, some of which were more successful than others. My
son and his best friend were always included in the session (her
mother was the other parent doing the math enrichment), but 1-3 others
were involved each time, depending on who the teacher felt was ready
for it that week.

In first grade, making 4 soda-bottle rocket launchers and running
rocket-launching activities for both the Fiesta de las Artes (which
involved decorating the rockets before launching them) and the school
carnival. Incidentally, plans for the launchers, in English and
Spanish are available on my web site
http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus/abe/soda-bottle-rocket.pdf
http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus/abe/soda-bottle-rocket-spanish.pdf
The translation into Spanish was done by another parent volunteer.

In first grade, organizing an after-school science class for 1st-3rd
grade with a teacher (not associated with the schools) who specializes
in science enrichment classes.

In first grade, being one of the organizers (not the main one by any
means) of the Fiesta de Las Artes---the first all-day art event the
school had done. It was a free event run on a Saturday which got high
participation from the students.

In both kindergarten and first grade, organizing and running (with
other parent volunteers) the Bike-to-School breakfast site.

My family also spent several hours walking the precinct before the
vote on the parcel tax that allowed the elementary schools to stay open.

I don't expect most parents to volunteer for the school at the level I
do---but I want to dispel the notion that all of us who are putting
in this amount of work are doing it as a social outlet. Some of us
are doing it because education is important to us, and the schools
(particularly in post-Prop 13 California) do not have the resources to
do it all themselves.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Noreen Cooper]

Banty > wrote:

: I think the resistance you're running into is resentment of the idea
: that All Good Parents volunteer (which was Bev's complaint) or even that
: one should volunteer if one's child isn't an academically bright or
: successful student.

Please point out where I said All Good Parents volunteer? Parents who
don't want to be in the classroom helping out, should stay away. Parents
who go crazy staying home with their kids should return to work. Just to
let you know where I stand on the "All Good Parents Stay Home" issue.
However, when your child is having trouble at school, All Good Parents
should make some attempt to find out why.

The volunteering suggestion was made in a specific context. For one week,
the OP's son has been crying every day about going to kindergarten, even
to the point of tearing her shirt, no matter what she's tried to do.
There is no doubt in my mind that the very best thing to do is for her to
get into the classroom and see first-hand what is going on or to ask
parents who are already there what is happening between her son, the
teacher, and the other students.

: This is part of the problem with the communication here. You're
: conflating altruistic volunteering for the school with what you
: originally proposed as a scouting mission for one's own child's sake.

My suggestion has always been from the POV of a scouting mission. Please
show me how I've stated otherwise.

Noreen (btw, the gweep server is back up now so the test group
misc.kids.family-life is back on line -- check it out if you have the
time)

[Bev Brandt]

Noreen Cooper > wrote in message >...
> Banty > wrote:
>
> :>If for some
> :>reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
> :>another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
> :>what they perceive to be the problem.
>
> : .. even if he doesn't volunteer 'quite regularly', no?
>
> : Banty (yep - I'm ever aware of the common presumptions, and think it
> : useful to point them out ...PIA I know ;-)
>
> Sure, that's exactly why I used the word "parent" rather than "mother."

Which is why I said *any* parent. If a child is having social and
academic issues at school, I don't care what the parent's employment
situation is - it is encumbent upon the *school* and their paid
professionals to provide that parent help. The suggestion to
"volunteer regularly" should NOT be made first, in fact I believe it
should not be made at all in the case of academic and social issues.

Although as I readily admitted, both my husband and I do WOH, so when
*we* hear this suggestion, it doesn't sit well. But I don't know that
I'd change my mind if I SAH - which actually I plan to do someday
soon. But not so I can be at school every day.

That suggestion is thick with value judgements. No matter *who* that
suggestion is made to, the implication is that if you can't volunteer
for any reason, you're doing your child a disservice. That could not
be further from the truth in many cases. I know this first hand.

I think that any parent that volunteers at the school during the day
should do so because they can contribute to the (underfunded)
workload, not to monitor classroom dynamics. I don't want any unpaid,
non-professional - including myself, to some degree (I have obvious
biases) - to evaluate my child's academic and social progress in the
school. If I need to determine whether or not there is a personality
conflict between my child and his teacher/counselor, I can do that in
other ways besides being a volunteer.

> What a strange twist this thread took.

Not strange at all. Either that or I hang out with a bunch of strange
parents. There are a lot of us out there - WOH and SAH - who bristle
at the suggestion that we're not doing enough because we're not
on-site at the school every single day, during the day.

> However, it behooves those working parents who can
> never or have no inclination to be present during the school day to seek
> out parents who actively volunteer in the class if their child is having a
> hard time adjusting either to school or a particular teacher to get a
> second, third, or fourth opinion on what may be the perceived problem.

Sure, this is helpful, I'm not so sure it's a necessity, though. I
have indeed relied upon "reality checks" from other parents in the
case of my son. And one of my reality checks actually came from a
fellow parent who is a physician and volunteers for some of the
after-hours math games we have.

My better reality checks are fellow parents - working and SAH - who
have my son over to play with thier kids. Or the soccer coach. Or my
own extended family. (Heh...like my SIL, a school counselor - a WOH
mom who is also just about as involved in the schools as one can be!)
I'd say that if one didn't have these reality check resources, then a
school volunteer would be one avenue, but not the only one.

> When it comes to those gift wrap fundraising sales, the reigning queen is
> a working mom who could care less about ever stepping a foot in the
> classroom, whether she could get off work or not. We all do our part.
> But were I to become a full-time working mother tomorrow, I'd be damn sure
> to seek out the SAH parents who are in the class every week.

You see, there's an implication here that a regular, on-site volunteer
is somehow saintly, moreso than the working mom that "couldn't care
less about ever stepping a foot in the classroom." I feel like you are
indeed making a value judgement about the classroom volunteer versus
the mom who helps with fundraising.

> There's no
> better review about a teacher and the classroom dynamics than by being
> there yourself.

It shouldn't have to be this way. We shouldn't have to rely upon
non-professionals to give us a review of the classroom situation as it
pertains to academics and social structure. Teachers should be more
communicative with parents. Counselors and principals should be in the
classroom more to make better judgement calls about those dynamics.

This is not a SAH vs. WOH parent rivalry. It's too bad that you see it
that way. If there is a "rivalry" it's between parents and our
expectations and schools and their apparent lack of resources.

-Bev

[Noreen Cooper]

Kevin Karplus > wrote:

: I don't expect most parents to volunteer for the school at the level I
: do---but I want to dispel the notion that all of us who are putting
: in this amount of work are doing it as a social outlet. Some of us
: are doing it because education is important to us, and the schools
: (particularly in post-Prop 13 California) do not have the resources to
: do it all themselves.

Glad you responded to this. I don't use my time as a school volunteer to
socialize either. Most parents who are volunteering in the class are
doing so to help out the teacher and keep track of how their own kid is
doing, IMO.

Noreen

[Banty]

In article >, Kevin Karplus says...
>
>In article >,
> chiam margalit wrote:
>> Parent volunteering is, imo, really more about the social aspects of
>> parenting school age children than it is about helping to teach. I
>> don't have a problem with this, I think it's probably a much better
>> idea than allowing parents access to graded projects, tests, etc. The
>> lack of knowledge about what is and should be going on in a classroom
>> needs to be recognized for what it is: goodhearted and well meaning
>> parents who want to make the classroom a better environment for their
>> children. That's not a bad thing at all, it's commendable at all
>> levels. But putting education of children other than your own into a
>> volunteer's hands is definately a bad thing in my opinion. YMMV.
>
>I can't speak for other volunteers, but my volunteering for the school
>has nothing to do with the social aspects of it---I'm not a
>particularly sociable person, and the other parents around the school
>are not necessarily who I would choose to socialize with.
>

I think both are true, actually - volunteering many times is socially-driven;
other times purely for the sake of volunteering. I've done both.

I do agree with Marjorie in general regarding the parental school volunteering
because IMO it does seem to be a feature of a certain set of social circles.

When I volunteered for the newsletter at Cub Scouts, it was because it was
something I could do more or less on my own terms and on my own time, though it
was considered less "fun" partly because it was less social, but less social is
fine with me. I was also an assistant Den Mother, mostly so that there could be
a Den, but the Den also turned out to be the start of a social circle for me -
the latter being mostly a matter of luck of composition of people involved.

Years ago when I was a volunteer EMT, that was a very consuming and active kind
of volunteering, and the social benefit to myself was huge, and part of the
reason I got involved (how a white girl from Texas and Colorado managed to fit
happily into her Bronx community). The socializing is a big feature of the
rural and suburban volunteer fire departments as well, alhough the committment
is also very large.

But even around the ambulance garage and the firehouses, although the volleys
can tend to consider themselves the Community Heros, I never caught whiff of the
"good people would all do this" attitude that I detected in PTA, schools, and
even Cub Scouts. Perhaps because it so obviously isn't for everybody, but
still.

I *do* think there is a fairly strong expectation about parents volunteering,
and, devoted volunteer as I am sometimes myself, it's clear enough for me to get
irritated with.

As to Prop 13 and all that - part of the issue IMNSHO is that these cutbacks are
happening largely *because* of the expectation that parents should be doing the
free labor. It's an enabling that is happening with this "you should be doing
it yourself anyway" ethic. And even in states not so hit by the anti-tax
movement as here in New York State, gee whiz, it's maddening to see a
decent-condition two-acre school parking lot paved again, whilst the library is
asking for used books. Yeah, I know it's different colors of money and all
that, but if there weren't the outlet of PTA and gifts (like my own) for
classroom needs, the pallette would be different.

Banty

[Noreen Cooper]

Bev Brandt > wrote:

: I think that any parent that volunteers at the school during the day
: should do so because they can contribute to the (underfunded)
: workload, not to monitor classroom dynamics. I don't want any unpaid,
: non-professional - including myself, to some degree (I have obvious
: biases) - to evaluate my child's academic and social progress in the
: school. If I need to determine whether or not there is a personality
: conflict between my child and his teacher/counselor, I can do that in
: other ways besides being a volunteer.

How your son performs on the soccer field is not the way your son will
behave in a particular classroom with a defined factor of fellow students
with the teacher who is chosen to instruct him for the year. I'm amazed
how you readily discount verifiable data which can only be obtained by
either being there first-hand or asking other parent volunteers.

: Not strange at all. Either that or I hang out with a bunch of strange
: parents. There are a lot of us out there - WOH and SAH - who bristle
: at the suggestion that we're not doing enough because we're not
: on-site at the school every single day, during the day.

And where did I make that assertion?


:> When it comes to those gift wrap fundraising sales, the reigning queen is
:> a working mom who could care less about ever stepping a foot in the
:> classroom, whether she could get off work or not. We all do our part.
:> But were I to become a full-time working mother tomorrow, I'd be damn sure
:> to seek out the SAH parents who are in the class every week.

: You see, there's an implication here that a regular, on-site volunteer
: is somehow saintly, moreso than the working mom that "couldn't care
: less about ever stepping a foot in the classroom." I feel like you are
: indeed making a value judgement about the classroom volunteer versus
: the mom who helps with fundraising.

I have no idea where you're reading in a value judgement here. Did you
miss the line about "we all do our part?" Okay, let me rephrase it this
way. The mom who brings in all that money for the school is helping the
school out as equally as any parent who helps out in the class every day.
Will you read a value judgement in that statement, too?

: It shouldn't have to be this way. We shouldn't have to rely upon
: non-professionals to give us a review of the classroom situation as it
: pertains to academics and social structure. Teachers should be more
: communicative with parents. Counselors and principals should be in the
: classroom more to make better judgement calls about those dynamics.

Well, in an ideal world....but....who is living in an ideal world? If the
system isn't ideal, though, I'd still suggest getting data firsthand in a
scouting mission rather than continue to allow your child to fail because
the system is failing to communicate the problems to you in a timely
manner.

Noreen

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>Time for my annual plug for "Spellabration" easy, cost effective,
>high-profit.
>
>Kids get pledges based on the number of points they will earn on a spelling
>test...

I *hate* these things, and the box tops, grocery receipts, etc. Why in heck
can't the businesses just DONATE already? Why do we have to jump through these
stupid little hoops?

(Of course, what I'd *really* like is a sensible tax structure, but in the
absence of that.)

--Helen (who just sends a goshdarned check to the school every year)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Karen G > wrote:
>I don't really like doing it, but I have put our emergency contacts down
>as my in-laws who are "states" away. I am upfront with people who I
>give those numbers too.

I have put my parents, who are 3 hours drive away. I still put them,
even though I now have local friends I can put down as well. Usually I
put down my parents and one local friend with a child in the same
school for my 2 emergency contacts. Honestly, with both my husband and
I having cell phones, I can only imagine they'd need our emergency
contact numbers if the cell towers were gone and we were not reachable
on our other contact numbers, which seems vanishingly unlikely (esp.
since DH and I are normally in areas covered by different cell
towers). But I figure, if there were an emergency of a type where they
had to get someone to amke a judgement call in a hurry, I'd want them
to call my parents and not a friend. If they need someone to pick the
child up and can't reach me, that's when I'd expect them to call the
local friend.

If you don't know anyone local yet, just say so. If you can, get a cell
phone or pager to make them not being able to reach you less of an issue.
And when you make friends, you can add one to your school forms later in
the year.

Good luck!
--Robyn

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>Bev Brandt > wrote:
>
>: I think that any parent that volunteers at the school during the day
>: should do so because they can contribute to the (underfunded)
>: workload, not to monitor classroom dynamics. I don't want any unpaid,
>: non-professional - including myself, to some degree (I have obvious
>: biases) - to evaluate my child's academic and social progress in the
>: school. If I need to determine whether or not there is a personality
>: conflict between my child and his teacher/counselor, I can do that in
>: other ways besides being a volunteer.
>
>How your son performs on the soccer field is not the way your son will
>behave in a particular classroom with a defined factor of fellow students
>with the teacher who is chosen to instruct him for the year. I'm amazed
>how you readily discount verifiable data which can only be obtained by
>either being there first-hand or asking other parent volunteers.

And how he performs with me in the room is different than how he performs
with me not present (or at least, not visible). Sort of a Heisenberg
Uncertainty Principle for social behavior.

I find classroom volunteering rewarding and useful in learning "how things
are done" at school, giving me more common ground to use to strike up a
discussion with my children, etc. I don't find it useful in learning
how my children react and behave in the classroom when I'm not present.
I expect the teachers to report on this, though, not other parent volunteers.
I've never been in a situation where I couldn't trust my child's teacher,
though.

I've been out of the classroom for 2 years now due to having a baby/toddler
at home who would have been a distraction in the classroom. He'll be
attending preschool a couple of mornings a week this year, and I look
forward to having the opportunity to volunteer in the classroom again.

(fwiw, I WOH as well, but part time and with a very flexible schedule.
Best of both worlds, IMO.)

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
MarjiG > wrote:
>Rant away, you're right. You shouldn't have to volunteer to get a solution for
>your child. That said, a fair number of companies offer paid time for
>volunteering... I'm allowed 2 hours per week.

Many companies that offer this do not include volunteering in one's own
child's school as an acceptable use of this time. :(

--Robyn

[Karen G]

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:48:50 EDT, (Iowacookiemom)
wrote:

>There has been some excellent advice here that I won't repeat in detail.
>Absolutely ask the school for help, and absolutely find a way to verify that
>there is no hidden, horrific reason for his outbursts (I'm not sure I'd have a
>parent volunteer -- that would exacerbate the separation anxiety -- do you
>trust a fellow parent to do this surveilance?)

I think this is the key. This type of problem is unlikely to be new to
the teacher or the school. Kindergarten is a pretty big transition and
the classroom setting can be a very challenging environment for some
children. We had a local kindergarten teacher do a presentation on
"school readiness" a few years ago. She said that she makes a firm rule
with the parents of her students to leave the kids at the door for the
first two weeks. It can seem pretty strict, but she needed the kids to
respect her ability to take care of them and that meant that the parents
really couldn't help. Dawn outlined some specific strategies that I
heartily approve. Whatever you do, don't take this behavior personally.
It isn't about you, it's about learning to transition.

Karen

[Noreen Cooper]

Robyn Kozierok > wrote:

: And how he performs with me in the room is different than how he performs
: with me not present (or at least, not visible). Sort of a Heisenberg
: Uncertainty Principle for social behavior.

Granted. But the advantages to a drop-in when your child is hating school
for whatever reason is the chance to observe firsthand the teacher's
style, how the children interact with each other and how the teacher
disciplines poor behavior. In my opinion, having this amount of
information can narrow down the causes of what's not working for a
particular student.

: I find classroom volunteering rewarding and useful in learning "how things
: are done" at school, giving me more common ground to use to strike up a
: discussion with my children, etc. I don't find it useful in learning
: how my children react and behave in the classroom when I'm not present.
: I expect the teachers to report on this, though, not other parent volunteers.

And as I said to Bev, sure in an ideal world where all teachers report on
poor behavior in the class immediately to a parent. However, I have found
that by the time a teacher sits down to have a parent-teacher conference
about a child's poor behavior, the chance to turn things around is less
likely because usually the entrenched dynamics have been going on for too
long.

Noreen

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:
>Parent volunteering is, imo, really more about the social aspects of
>parenting school age children than it is about helping to teach.

I'd have to disagree with this, for myself anyhow. I've pretty much
never volunteered in a way that involved other volunteers at the same
time, so it wasn't social for me at all.

>I don't have a problem with this, I think it's probably a much better
>idea than allowing parents access to graded projects, tests, etc. The
>lack of knowledge about what is and should be going on in a classroom
>needs to be recognized for what it is: goodhearted and well meaning
>parents who want to make the classroom a better environment for their
>children. That's not a bad thing at all, it's commendable at all
>levels. But putting education of children other than your own into a
>volunteer's hands is definately a bad thing in my opinion. YMMV.

I guess I would have to say that my mileage does indeed vary.

Although I am not a trained teacher, I have "helped teach" in several
instances where I believe the children were better off having me there
than not. Increasing the number of adults in the classroom enables
the trained teacher(s) to spend more one-on-one and small group time
with various kids, which I think we all agree benefits the kids, so
long as nothing the other adults are doing is harmful.

I, for one, have done numerous things including (as another parent on
this ng has done) offering math enrichment to a handful of students
who did not need the review that was going on in the rest of the class
at that time. The kids I was working with had a good time, got to
explore some interesting/difficult mathematical concepts/puzzles/games
while the kids remaining in the classroom got a little more attention
to helping them master the basic math curriculum. (I do have a math
degree, fwiw.) I did this semi-selfishly because my own child really
needed this enrichment and there wasn't anyone available within the
school to do it.

There is a program where volunteers are taught to do hands-on science
activities in elementary classrooms. Again, I think adding something
like this to the existing curriculum could only help.

I don't think allowing a teacher to have volunteers "help teach" is
as dangerous as you seem to be suggesting. Certainly, some parents
might not be qualified to teach, and letting them do so to the
exclusion of other instruction would be harmful. It is the teacher's
responsibility to evaluate parent volunteers and engage them in a
way that enhances students' education. Sometimes this will include
asking/allowing them to help teach in an area where they are competent.
Other times, it may be limited to things like providing crowd control.
IMO, a teacher should use his/her judgement and make the best use of all
the resources available to him/her, including parent volunteers.

Our current (underfunded) private school relies heavily on parent
volunteers, both in and out of the classroom. All parents are expected
to contribute in some way. Many do volunteer in the classroom. It is
up to the teachers and principal to decide who does what and to ensure
that the volunteers' strengths are tapped to the advantage of the school
and its students. This works out beautifully, and has for many, many
years at this school and others like it. I would much rather put my
children's education in the hands of such caring volunteers, under
the watchful eye of the school's teachers and principal, than have them
get that much less individual attention while a single teacher tries
to divide her limited class time among all the students in the class.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>So do the parents grading the homework not have the correct answers on
>an answer sheet?

I would say that for elementary school work, usually not. Often answer
sheets do not exist, and it is assumed that a parent can figure out
elementary curriculum without one.

When I volunteered in the classroom in 1st and 2nd grades, I often
corrected papers for students as they completed them. I never had an
answer sheet to refer to. This wasn't for "grades" -- if there were
incorrect answers I'd point them out and either help the student figure
them out, or send them off to try again if they didn't seem to really
need help with it. When they paper was completed successfully, I'd
sign off on the appropriate square in their work chart. There were
usually multiple adults in the room doing this, and kids chose who to
bring their work to, so kids who wanted to only have their work seen
by the teacher had this option.

When I was in college, I graded papers as part of the requirements of
my scholarship. In grad school, I was a teaching assistant some terms
to cover my tuition and stipend, which again included grading papers.
As often as not, we were not given correct solutions to work from. We
were expected to be able to figure them out ourselves. Of course, if a
substantial number of students came to a different solution than I did,
I would re-examine my work. And if we ever did make mistakes grading,
students certainly had the opportunity to point out grading errors either
directly to the TAs or to the professor.

Another poster worried about confidentiality with teachers "farming
out" grading duties. Certainly it is the responsibility of the
teacher/professor to make appropriate confidentiality restrictions
clear to the graders before engaging them, but I find it unreasonable
to demand that no one but the classroom teacher may ever grade a
student's work. And in college, it definitely isn't going to happen
that way.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[David desJardins]

Karen G writes:
> We had a local kindergarten teacher do a presentation on "school
> readiness" a few years ago. She said that she makes a firm rule with
> the parents of her students to leave the kids at the door for the
> first two weeks. It can seem pretty strict, but she needed the kids
> to respect her ability to take care of them and that meant that the
> parents really couldn't help.

Personally, I'd take this as a sign that I need to find a new school.
She sounds like a control freak.

My children are not school age yet, but you see this at all levels of
child care and education, not just kindergarten. There are preschools
that strongly discourage parents from being present in the classroom,
because they want to control the experience and they don't want the
parents interfering with their concept. And there are preschools that
insist that all of the parents participate in the classroom, because
they don't want this artificial divide between school and family life.
The latter makes a lot more sense to me.

David desJardins

[Banty]

In article >, H Schinske says...
>
wrote:
>
>>Time for my annual plug for "Spellabration" easy, cost effective,
>>high-profit.
>>
>>Kids get pledges based on the number of points they will earn on a spelling
>>test...
>
>I *hate* these things, and the box tops, grocery receipts, etc. Why in heck
>can't the businesses just DONATE already? Why do we have to jump through these
>stupid little hoops?


:::clapping and cheering::::

>
>(Of course, what I'd *really* like is a sensible tax structure, but in the
>absence of that.)
>
>--Helen (who just sends a goshdarned check to the school every year)
>

Hear hear!

Banty (OK - yeah - that's a "mee too" post :-)

[Banty]

In article >, Noreen Cooper says...
>
>Banty > wrote:
>
>: Nope. Don't do the school fundraisers - frankly, I think they're a
>: crock. I do give new books directly to the library, though. But I
>: certainly don't get with the program of the wrapper-buying, PTA-committe
>: attending, classroom-cookie baking mommie.
>
>Oh, so you *do* something for the school, after all. Donating books to
>the library is helping out the school. I said I'd only judge you if you
>did *nothing* to help out your local school. But it seems you needed to
>go out of your way to make sure I knew you weren't one of "them." Okay,
>so you're not. BTW, I know a few AH classroom-cookie baking daddies, too.
>Sorry, couldn't resist.

Noreen - you don't seem to get the point - this isn't a question of whether or
not you approve - that's a non issue for me either way. It's that I'm not
obliged, nor should be expected, to donate the books to begin with! Nor is any
other parent.

Banty

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>We had a local kindergarten teacher do a presentation on
>"school readiness" a few years ago. She said that she makes a firm rule
>with the parents of her students to leave the kids at the door for the
>first two weeks.

Forget it. I don't want ANYBODY teaching my kids who uses such
one-size-fits-all rules in a varies-so-much-by-child situation. Nor do I want
my kids in any classroom where parents are off-limits.

--Helen

[Noreen Cooper]

Banty > wrote:

: Noreen - you don't seem to get the point - this isn't a question of
: whether or not you approve - that's a non issue for me either way. It's
: that I'm not obliged, nor should be expected, to donate the books to
: begin with! Nor is any other parent.

There's ideology and there's reality, Banty. I daresay if you spent any
time in the classroom volunteering you'd see firsthand *why* parents need
to help out. If you never step foot in a classroom, it's easy from that
perch to hold tight to your ideology that parents should never be expected
to help the schools in any way. Whatever.

Noreen

[David desJardins]

Banty writes:
> Noreen - you don't seem to get the point - this isn't a question of
> whether or not you approve - that's a non issue for me either way.
> It's that I'm not obliged, nor should be expected, to donate the books
> to begin with! Nor is any other parent.

I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
want to participate.)

Maybe you don't think that I "should" expect this. But, in fact, I do.

David desJardins

[Jayne Kulikauskas]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Banty writes:
> > Noreen - you don't seem to get the point - this isn't a question of
> > whether or not you approve - that's a non issue for me either way.
> > It's that I'm not obliged, nor should be expected, to donate the books
> > to begin with! Nor is any other parent.
>
> I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
> schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
> think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
> require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
> benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
> want to participate.)
>
> Maybe you don't think that I "should" expect this. But, in fact, I do.

I do nothing to participate in my children's schools. I hate the thought of
doing it. I do not understand why you presume to have expectations for my
behaviour.

Jayne

[Chris Himes]

(Iowacookiemom) wrote in message >...
> >At the time, I was too new in town to have had any other numbers to give
> >them --
>
> Does anyone have suggestions regarding this? We are brand, spanking new in our
> new community -- been here 5 whole weeks. My husband is reluctant to ask work
> friends to be our emergency contact since most of the folks he's gotten to know
> work *for* him and it seems like an unfair request from a supervisor to a
> subordinate. We haven't yet found a church, and we barely know neighbors. Has
> anyone out there solved this creatively?


In a similar situation I used my secretary's number as the emergencey
contact. This was under the assumption that she would know where to
find me on campus if there was a problem or know if I was out of town
or something. Of course my phone would rollover anyway, so it wasn't
really an alternate number but it gave us something to fill in on the
forms. It's not ideal, since I wouldn't have expected her to actually
go get my kids, but fortunately we have never had to use the
emergencey number.

Now, we use our neighbors who have kids a similar age, but they use
their family members in the area. Cell phones can help, since that
means you are reachable almost at any time anywhere.

Chris

[David desJardins]

Jayne Kulikauskas writes:
> I do nothing to participate in my children's schools. I hate the
> thought of doing it. I do not understand why you presume to have
> expectations for my behaviour.

I think everyone has expectations for everyone's behavior. For example,
I expect people who are congregating on the sidewalk to move aside when
people are trying to walk by, rather than block the path. I expect
people to apologize when they inadvertently bump into me. I expect
people to help if they see a small child who's lost. I expect people to
call 911 if they see a house on fire. I expect my neighbors to maintain
the appearance of their properties. And so on, and so on, and so on.

None of these, for the most part, are legal obligations. They are just
social and moral obligations. They are all things that I expect other
people to naturally want to do, not that I want to force them or require
them to do.

That means that you don't have to do them, but I don't think you should
be surprised that some people expect them.

David desJardins

[Bev Brandt]

Noreen Cooper > wrote in message >...
> I'm amazed
> how you readily discount verifiable data which can only be obtained by
> either being there first-hand or asking other parent volunteers.

The volunteers at your school must do more than the volunteers at
mine. I don't see how helping the kids line up for recess and lunch
gives them any sort of data on my child. They are not the ones that
are there to evaluate his academic and social progress. I've never had
one single room parent tell me anything of value. And yes, I've talked
with them. They all say my son is "fine."

> : Not strange at all. Either that or I hang out with a bunch of strange
> : parents. There are a lot of us out there - WOH and SAH - who bristle
> : at the suggestion that we're not doing enough because we're not
> : on-site at the school every single day, during the day.
>
> And where did I make that assertion?

Okay. What *do* you think of a parent who does not volunteer and who
has not relied upon information from volunteer parents? I have a son
with problems at school. I don't go to the school regularly. I don't
ask the room parents about my son. Implicit in your posts is that I'm
not doing enough - but then, you don't know what I *am* doing.
Volunteering or asking the room parent about a child was your *first*
suggestion to the OP. I think it should be much further down the list.
Much.

> :> When it comes to those gift wrap fundraising sales, the reigning queen is
> :> a working mom who could care less about ever stepping a foot in the
> :> classroom, whether she could get off work or not. We all do our part.
> :> But were I to become a full-time working mother tomorrow, I'd be damn sure
> :> to seek out the SAH parents who are in the class every week.
>
> : You see, there's an implication here that a regular, on-site volunteer
> : is somehow saintly, moreso than the working mom that "couldn't care
> : less about ever stepping a foot in the classroom." I feel like you are
> : indeed making a value judgement about the classroom volunteer versus
> : the mom who helps with fundraising.
>
> I have no idea where you're reading in a value judgement here. Did you
> miss the line about "we all do our part?"

I actually read it as sarcasm. My mistake.

> Well, in an ideal world....but....who is living in an ideal world? If the
> system isn't ideal, though, I'd still suggest getting data firsthand in a
> scouting mission rather than continue to allow your child to fail because
> the system is failing to communicate the problems to you in a timely
> manner.
>
> Noreen

I would still say that talking to the room parent is not my first
choice in an non-ideal situation. I'm *in* a non-ideal situation and
the first people I'll be going to are the very people who are not
communicating with me - the teacher (well, we're starting a new year,
so we'll see how this one does) the school counselor and the
principal. As I said above, talking to the room parent is way down on
my list and talking to a room parent about some of the things my son
has going on is really a breach of his privacy.

- Bev

[Marion Baumgarten]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:

> Robyn Kozierok > wrote:
>
> : And how he performs with me in the room is different than how he performs
> : with me not present (or at least, not visible). Sort of a Heisenberg
> : Uncertainty Principle for social behavior.
>
> Granted. But the advantages to a drop-in when your child is hating school
> for whatever reason is the chance to observe firsthand the teacher's
> style, how the children interact with each other and how the teacher
> disciplines poor behavior. In my opinion, having this amount of
> information can narrow down the causes of what's not working for a
> particular student.

And it has nothing to do with volunteering. I have gone to my son's
school to OBSERVE him at lunch and recess to see how he was interscting
when he had some problems. he never even knew I was there- the principal
let me in on some "secret " places she had in the school where I could
watch him. I also did some "volunteering" last year in his classrom (5th
grade) where they normally do not have parent volunteers to watch him.
The teacher gave me a make work assignment- but the reak purpose was for
me to watch my child. The assignment was just a "cover".

Marion

[Banty]

In article >, David desJardins says...
>
>Banty writes:
>> Noreen - you don't seem to get the point - this isn't a question of
>> whether or not you approve - that's a non issue for me either way.
>> It's that I'm not obliged, nor should be expected, to donate the books
>> to begin with! Nor is any other parent.
>
>I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
>schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
>think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
>require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
>benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
>want to participate.)
>
>Maybe you don't think that I "should" expect this. But, in fact, I do.

But why do you?

You see your child in a school, perhaps another child in a school, and you as a
parent in relation to that, and the other child's parent in relation to all that
- do you think "in this setting everyone should be working"? Or - "I'm working
here that parent should be working too", or more likely probably it's "there is
work I see that is to be done here - everybody I see should be doing the work I
see here"?

Because the essense of this sort of outlook is really taking the whole situation
as being only what *you* see. I've encountered this sort of thing a lot, and
have concluded that it's essentially a circular and self-oriented kind of
outlook.

That parent turning around and walking away and not fulfilling whatever your
expectation is, about what you see around that immediate situation to do, is
almost certainly going to a different venue, which you do *not* perceive and
have no information about, and doing the work and fulfilling the expectations
that pertain to *that* situation. Or just having their hands full with more
personal concerns. That's a decision they make. Time and energy is limited -
issues and problems are many. It's a decision *I* make all the time - and you
do too, most likely you're not, for example, building houses for Amnesty
International on Monday and manning the graveyard firehouse shift Tuesday night
(or maybe it's the kid-with-fever shift Tuesday night), and if you were, you
most probably woudln't be in the classroom Wednesday morning.

Do you see what I mean?

The public schools are an institution with professional personnel trained to
educate our children - they set (at least in detail) the agenda, goals, and
methodolgy. I have as a part of a society *hired* this institution and these
people. As others here have noted, it's fairly recent that there is such huge
emphasis on parental bodies in the classroom and copier room and lunch room. I
for one can be a piece of free parental labor only at the expense of other very
important things. That's my assessment of my situation. You have no right or
standing or even information to expect otherwise.

Banty

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
H Schinske > wrote:
wrote:
>
>>We had a local kindergarten teacher do a presentation on
>>"school readiness" a few years ago. She said that she makes a firm rule
>>with the parents of her students to leave the kids at the door for the
>>first two weeks.
>
>Forget it. I don't want ANYBODY teaching my kids who uses such
>one-size-fits-all rules in a varies-so-much-by-child situation. Nor do I want
>my kids in any classroom where parents are off-limits.

While I'm with you on the one-size-fits-all stuff, the parents were only
asked to stay out of the classroom for the first two weeks, while the
teacher was setting up her own routines and expectations of the children.
I don't consider that particularly unreasonable, presuming some kind
of orientation prior to the first day of school that would have allowed
a gradual transition for those who needed it. (Our last school had
"camp" for incoming kindergarteners for 3 mornings in the week before
school started. Parents were welcome to stay for that if necessary.
Parents at all levels are invited/encouraged to stay for any part of the
first day of school as well. After that, asking parents to back off for
a couple of weeks doesn't sound unreasonable to me (though in fact I
don't think our teacher required that).

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Nan > wrote:
>
>So what is it about today's teachers that requires all this
>volunteerism???

Larger class sizes in many cases. Heterogeneous grouping of
students at all different ability levels in the same class.
In some cases, budget cuts have reduced the "special" periods
during the school day when the children would be with another
teacher freeing the main classroom teacher for prep work; also
fewer "resource teachers" available within the school to help out
individuals needing extra help or enrichment. Also different
expectations on teachers today (both educational and beaurocratic).

Those are the main things that come immediately to mind for me.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[David desJardins]

Banty writes:
> But why do you?
>
> You see your child in a school, perhaps another child in a school, and
> you as a parent in relation to that, and the other child's parent in
> relation to all that - do you think "in this setting everyone should
> be working"? Or - "I'm working here that parent should be working
> too", or more likely probably it's "there is work I see that is to be
> done here - everybody I see should be doing the work I see here"?

No, none of these. I tried to explain it. I guess the best I can
explain it is that I assume anyone who would have children is interested
in educating and raising their children, and it would seem really odd to
me to want to ship your child off to school for many hours every day and
not be part of what's going on there. It would be like having children
and then hiring someone to raise them while you go live somewhere else,
and have no contact with your hired parent-substitutes. It just seems
really odd, to me.

The natural (in my view) wish to participate in the process by which my
children are educated is totally independent of the needs or
requirements of the school.

Some people probably can't participate in the schools (for example, have
a job which makes it impossible for them to do so), and I could
understand why they might not participate, but I don't understand how a
parent would not *want* to participate.

> The public schools are an institution with professional personnel
> trained to educate our children - they set (at least in detail) the
> agenda, goals, and methodology.

Are you implying that you think the schools have a better idea of how to
educate my kids than I do? I certainly don't agree with that! And I
think one of the main benefits of volunteerism is precisely that the
schools can't boss around volunteers or control them in the same way
that they would employees. So the volunteers have more of an
opportunity (relative to the amount of their participation) to have a
positive effect, through the contribution of their own perspective and
attitudes.

> You have no right or standing or even information to expect otherwise.

Well, I think that, as an individual, I have "standing" to expect
whatever I want. I'm using "expect" in the sense of "I expect an
apology [for some infraction]"; it's what I think a reasonable person
would do, and what I hope everyone would do, although I'm aware, as a
matter of fact, that some people won't. And, to be honest, I don't
really want everyone to volunteer: if someone really doesn't want to
participate in the schools, then I don't want them there either.

David desJardins

[David desJardins]

Bev Brandt writes:
> I've never had one single room parent tell me anything of value. And
> yes, I've talked with them. They all say my son is "fine."

Bev Brandt also writes:
> Okay. What *do* you think of a parent who does not volunteer and who
> has not relied upon information from volunteer parents? I have a son
> with problems at school. I don't go to the school regularly. I don't
> ask the room parents about my son.

Don't these two statements directly contradict each other?

David desJardins

[Noreen Cooper]

Bev Brandt > wrote:

: The volunteers at your school must do more than the volunteers at
: mine. I don't see how helping the kids line up for recess and lunch
: gives them any sort of data on my child. They are not the ones that
: are there to evaluate his academic and social progress. I've never had
: one single room parent tell me anything of value. And yes, I've talked
: with them. They all say my son is "fine."

Yes, the volunteers at my son's school do more than yard duty work, so in
that case, no, my suggestion to ask a parent volunteer isn't going to help
you out one bit.

When I volunteer in the class, I'm providing direct assistance to the
students. I'm either teaching them how to use a computer or else I'm
helping them with reading or math in learning centers. I sit with kids
who are having trouble reading and follow along as they read a book to me.
I'm not expected to discipline the students, that is the job of the
teacher. Usually I'm the only parent volunteer in the class for that
given day, and while the teacher is providing more individual attention to
a rotating group of students, I'm busy supervising and answering questions
of the remaining three-quarters of the class while they work on assigned
projects.

Where I believe Marjorie gets the idea we parent volunteers are there for
socializing is that class parties and field trips can be a social occasion
for parent volunteers. However, those parties happen ony a handful of
times out of the year. Otherwise, we're there to help the students with
academics and allow for the teacher to give small groups more focused
attention.

Now were your son in the class I volunteer, I could tell you quite a bit
about how he's doing, both academically and socially. Whether you want to
respect my opinion or not is up to you and I'd give you the names of three
other parent volunteers to get their opinions as well.

: Okay. What *do* you think of a parent who does not volunteer and who
: has not relied upon information from volunteer parents? I have a son
: with problems at school. I don't go to the school regularly. I don't
: ask the room parents about my son. Implicit in your posts is that I'm
: not doing enough - but then, you don't know what I *am* doing.
: Volunteering or asking the room parent about a child was your *first*
: suggestion to the OP. I think it should be much further down the list.
: Much.

Since your school does not allow parents to help out with academics in the
classroom, I can't equate our situations. I don't know what I'd do in
your situation. Your son is having trouble in school but you can't get
off work. Neither you or your husband particularly want to help out in
the classroom. Your plan to be more aggressive on improving communication
between you, the teacher, and the school principal sounds like the only
way to go under the circumstances.

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

Nan > wrote:

: So what is it about today's teachers that requires all this
: volunteerism???

I don't know about your state but in California it's called Proposition 13
from the 70's which took away millions of dollars from schools and
universities.

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

Robyn Kozierok > wrote:

: It sounds like you've maybe had a bad experience with a teacher in the
: past, but really, most kindergarten teachers have lots of experience
: with separation issues and are more than willing to help.

No, not at all. My son's kindergarten teacher was a reading specialist
and she had everyone either at grade level or beyond by the end of the
year. But no "perfect" teacher exists and she did fall down in a few of
areas, IMO, and especially when she was overloaded with five very active
boys in one classroom. I don't believe she dealt well with one active boy
in particular and could see if the parent had been involved earlier,
everyone would have been better served. By the time she brought in the
mother, half the year had passed -- the mother was defensive -- and things
went from bad to worse.

Noreen

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes David desJardins > wrote:

>Marjorie writes:
>> Fourth, once your children reach middle school age, all of this is
>> moot. They don't have parent volunteers in the middle school
>> classrooms, thank goodness, and the parental competition dies on the
>> vine.
>
>Now that you mention this, it certainly seems true that there's less
>volunteer help in the middle and high schools (although I don't agree
>there's none). I wonder why that is? My first thought is that, as
>children get older, they have less respect for any arbitrary adult, just
>because that person is an adult, and so it's harder for volunteers to
>come in and be treated with respect and to be effective. I wonder if
>that's the reason, or if there's some other reason.
>
No I think the reason is that the children go from teacher to teacher
- so they don't have one teacher all the time. There are occasional
parent volunteers (or at least were when I was teaching) but they
mostly helped in special ed or in the library or the office or
somewhere like that. It's just way harder to coordinate it than in
elementary school where one teacher has one class all the time.

Also, a teacher does more or less (depending on the kind of teacher it
is) the same lesson 4 or 5 times a day in middle school, and maybe two
or three lessons a couple of times a day in high school. I was a
student teacher where the 9th grade science teacher taught exactly the
same lesson 5 times a day. Since I was forced to student teach
outside of my field, he taught the first lesson of the day, and then I
did the other 4 lessons repeating what he said. It just isn't the
same kind of thing that an elementary teacher does with multiple
subjects each day.

As Robin has pointed out - in the beginning grades the parent is
expected to be able to figure out the answers. There is not always
that expectation in the upper grades and hs.



grandma Rosalie

[Noreen Cooper]

David desJardins > wrote:

: Well, I think that, as an individual, I have "standing" to expect
: whatever I want. I'm using "expect" in the sense of "I expect an
: apology [for some infraction]"; it's what I think a reasonable person
: would do, and what I hope everyone would do, although I'm aware, as a
: matter of fact, that some people won't. And, to be honest, I don't
: really want everyone to volunteer: if someone really doesn't want to
: participate in the schools, then I don't want them there either.

David, I'm all a'glow. We usually find ourselves on opposite ends of an
argument so I'm reveling in the accord right now. :-)

Noreen (ain't that a fancy way to say "Me, too)

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:
(sorry I misspelled your name in another post)

>In article >,
>Nan > wrote:
>>
>>So what is it about today's teachers that requires all this
>>volunteerism???
>
>Larger class sizes in many cases. Heterogeneous grouping of
>students at all different ability levels in the same class.

We had that 20 years ago and it was regarded as appropriate and in
fact for better learning of all the children - at least research
showed that.

>In some cases, budget cuts have reduced the "special" periods
>during the school day when the children would be with another
>teacher freeing the main classroom teacher for prep work; also

This is a factor of budget which is a political problem and a school
board problem. We had mandated planning periods in our contracts, and
I do not think this has changed since I was teaching (I have talked to
friends who are current teachers and they still had their planning
periods.) They were trying to eliminate home ec, but they still had
other special subjects.

>fewer "resource teachers" available within the school to help out
>individuals needing extra help or enrichment. Also different
>expectations on teachers today (both educational and beaurocratic).

The resource teachers are mandated by law for special needs students.
The school cannot eliminate them.
>
>Those are the main things that come immediately to mind for me.

I truly don't see that any of those things are a reason to volunteer.
I basically agree with Banty. The schools are supposed to teach my
child. That's their job. I was happy when I was a teacher if the
parents came to parent's night to talk to me but generally it was only
the parents of the 'good' students who did that. I came to every
parents night of all my kids all through school. I kept track of how
they were doing. That was it.

My dd#2 had her 3 yo in a coop pre-school and was required to
volunteer a certain number of hours. She didn't mind volunteering the
hours, but she had a great deal of difficulty with the scheduling as
they WOULD NOT understand that her schedule wasn't the same all the
time (she's a pilot for AA). Some weeks she would be working on
Wednesday, and some weeks she would not. So she's transferred her to
the school that her son attends where she can just flat pay for it and
doesn't need to volunteer.

I will go farther than that. If there are schools that need
volunteers, I think they are the private schools. Private schools
have FAR less resources than public schools.

grandma Rosalie

[Ann Porter]

"Noreen Cooper" > wrote in message
...

> Well, in an ideal world....but....who is living in an ideal world? If the
> system isn't ideal, though, I'd still suggest getting data firsthand in a
> scouting mission rather than continue to allow your child to fail because
> the system is failing to communicate the problems to you in a timely
> manner.

I agree. But I think a good first step is to ask the teacher,
fercryinoutloud.

When my daughter spent some time freaking out before kindergarten, she was
always fine five minutes after I left. She was responding to *my*
ambivalence about her growing up.

Pulling out all stops, rearranging schedules, and looking for "scout"
parents might be necessary 2nd, 3rd, etc. steps if the problem doesn't
resolve in a couple of weeks. But I don't think they need to be at the top
of the list. And school just started.

Just my .02,
Ann

[Cathy Kearns]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Marjorie writes:
> > Fourth, once your children reach middle school age, all of this is
> > moot. They don't have parent volunteers in the middle school
> > classrooms, thank goodness, and the parental competition dies on the
> > vine.
>
> Now that you mention this, it certainly seems true that there's less
> volunteer help in the middle and high schools (although I don't agree
> there's none). I wonder why that is? My first thought is that, as
> children get older, they have less respect for any arbitrary adult, just
> because that person is an adult, and so it's harder for volunteers to
> come in and be treated with respect and to be effective. I wonder if
> that's the reason, or if there's some other reason.

I think partly it's because the subjects have become too advanced to
assume any volunteer can teach them. I know in junior high the
masses could volunteer for some things, serving hot lunch, or bringing
snacks for various teacher events. But by junior high they know the
volunteers they want. If they need math experts, they find the math
experts. If they need engineers, they know who's an engineer. So
they get recruit volunteers on a case by case basis. But also they
need many, many less volunteers. I think this might be because junior high
seems to be when tracking kicks in. In elementary school
it's great to have some one doing math enrichment while the other
kids are working on reviewing basics, or having some one do the
chapter reading group while others are working on short stories, and
others are on picture books. But when all the kids in the class are
ready for math enrichment, or reviewing basics, less "teachers"
are required. Also, as the kids get older their attention spans lengthen,
and teachers can deal with more students at the same time. When working
in groups they eventually don't need supervision in each group. At our
elementary schools the volunteers lessen every year. The difference in
volunteer classroom hours between 6th grade parents (last year of
elementary) and 7th grade parents (first year of junior high) is pretty
much a wash.

But by high school the parents are invited back in force, but not in
classrooms, in tutoring centers. Where parents can help kids catch
up in 1st and 2nd grade classrooms, by high school pulling kids out
of class to tutor makes no sense. But parents still tutor, it just doesn't
look like classroom volunteering.

[Nevermind]

I have heard tell of nightmare parent volunteers. I know a number of
people whose kids all went to the same private school in which the
volunteers were a real problem in that they tended to be largely from
one social circle and they tended to be a bunch of gossips. Other
parents felt uncomfortable volunteering and they felt uncomfortable
about their kids being watched/judged/gossiped about by these mothers.
All meetings were held during the day or in the late afternoon/very
early evening, so working parents had difficulty getting involved. And
it was felt that the volunteer "set" had undue influence over school
administrators.

However, at my son's former (and future!) school, I found the PTA to
be just fine. Working parents were quite well and visibly represented
in this school's PTA. I think what PTAs need is for even just one or
two working parents and dads (who are also under-represented in
schools) to be visible and important to the organization. When that
happens, I think it helps make other working parents and dads feel
more welcome and less foreign to the group.

Unquestionably, there is a "core group" of SAH moms who volunteer
practically full-time and who therefore all know each other quite
well. I did feel a bit uncomfortable at some meetings and events since
most of the other mothers clearly knew each other and the territory
and I did not. But that's typical newbie stuff and unavoidable, IMO. I
never felt that I *had* to hang out with these women in order to do my
part, and I never did hang out with them.

I still have major concerns about the sheer amount of work -- basic,
important work -- that volunteers are relied upon to do in this
school. Ours is a big district, and I hear that the services the
various schools provide varies due to the variable number of
volunteers the schools have (much fewer in poorer neighborhoods).
Schools should be well funded enough to provide all the educational
services! Parent volunteers should be for fun stuff and optional stuff
-- warm bodies to chaperone kids, stuffing envelopes, raising money
for luxuries, etc.

[Jayne Kulikauskas]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Jayne Kulikauskas writes:
> > I do nothing to participate in my children's schools. I hate the
> > thought of doing it. I do not understand why you presume to have
> > expectations for my behaviour.
>
> I think everyone has expectations for everyone's behavior. For example,
> I expect people who are congregating on the sidewalk to move aside when
> people are trying to walk by, rather than block the path. I expect
> people to apologize when they inadvertently bump into me. I expect
> people to help if they see a small child who's lost. I expect people to
> call 911 if they see a house on fire. I expect my neighbors to maintain
> the appearance of their properties. And so on, and so on, and so on.

Wow. It seems so strange to put school volunteering in this category.
Where could you have gotten such an idea?

> None of these, for the most part, are legal obligations. They are just
> social and moral obligations. They are all things that I expect other
> people to naturally want to do, not that I want to force them or require
> them to do.
>
> That means that you don't have to do them, but I don't think you should
> be surprised that some people expect them.

I saw a big rant on another newsgroup with somebody going on about how
terrible other parents are that don't put in school vounteer time like he
does. I wasn't surprised. My reaction was to think how judgemental and
unreasonable he was.

Jayne

[Noreen Cooper]

Nan > wrote:

: So you're saying that this mass push for parental volunteers has been
: going strong since the 70s?
: Every state has suffered budget cuts. I don't buy it as a compelling
: reason.

You don't have to buy it. You can look up where California's public
schools ranked before Proposition 13 in the 70's and where the state
ranks today. Quite verifiable.

Noreen

[David desJardins]

Bev Brandt writes:
> And there's where I suppose my working parent defense kicks in. When I
> hear, "volunteer regularly" I really hear, "someone from your family
> needs to be at the school X number of times per week during the hours
> of 8:30 to 3:15." Can't be done without forgoing the mortgage payment.

I think X can be pretty small. I think X=0.25 (i.e., once/month) would
be fine, for example. (With 20 kids in a class, once/month by one
parent from each family puts someone in the classroom every day.) If
neither you nor your husband/spouse/partner/co-parent really can do
that, well, then you shouldn't do it. I'm glad my life isn't so tightly
constrained, though.

> When I hear, "ask a school volunteer about classroom dynamics" I
> really hear, "ask a parent who's intent is to read the kids a story
> during reading class to keep an eye on your son."

This seems nutty to me. I don't see how such a suggestion implies
asking them to do anything in the future. It's just asking them what
goes on in the room. Nor, to me, does it sound like asking anything at
all about your child. Asking about classroom dynamics is asking about
classroom dynamics. What goes on in the class? What is the teacher
like? How do the kids (collectively) behave? All stuff I'd really want
to know about my children's classes, and I don't see how you can know
unless either you are there, at least occasionally, or you ask people
who are there.

David desJardins

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes Noreen Cooper > wrote:

>Nan > wrote:
>
>: So you're saying that this mass push for parental volunteers has been
>: going strong since the 70s?
>: Every state has suffered budget cuts. I don't buy it as a compelling
>: reason.
>
>You don't have to buy it. You can look up where California's public
>schools ranked before Proposition 13 in the 70's and where the state
>ranks today. Quite verifiable.

That doesn't matter - it doesn't make it necessary to volunteer just
because the California schools aren't as good as they were.
Volunteering is a bandaid. The schools need more than a bandaid just
as a cancer patient does.


grandma Rosalie

[MarjiG]

In article >, Nan
> writes:

>
>So what is it about today's teachers that requires all this
>volunteerism???
>

Budget cuts
standardized tests
"No child left behind"
"School to Work"
lawsuits that removed the ability of schools to maintain discipline.

Of course, I remember hanging out in the office while my mom mimeographed
papers for the school, while I was still a pre-schooler, so volunteering is
hardly new.
Later on she taught reading and writing workshops.
-Marjorie

[Noreen Cooper]

Ann Porter > wrote:

: Pulling out all stops, rearranging schedules, and looking for "scout"
: parents might be necessary 2nd, 3rd, etc. steps if the problem doesn't
: resolve in a couple of weeks. But I don't think they need to be at the top
: of the list. And school just started.

Yes, it is wise to ask the teacher first for help with the adjustment
process but the way the OP described her son's behavior (which had been
going on for one week) sounded more intense than any experience I've ever
had with separation anxiety. I had quite a few caveats in my post,
including waiting another week before going ahead with the scouting
operation.

I feel a bit sorry for the OP. Seems like a serious question has been
drowned out by many sideline conversations. I hope she posts an update
and that she has gotten enough information to help her in deciding what to
do.

Noreen

[chiam margalit]

(Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> chiam margalit wrote:
> > Parent volunteering is, imo, really more about the social aspects of
> > parenting school age children than it is about helping to teach. I
> > don't have a problem with this, I think it's probably a much better
> > idea than allowing parents access to graded projects, tests, etc. The
> > lack of knowledge about what is and should be going on in a classroom
> > needs to be recognized for what it is: goodhearted and well meaning
> > parents who want to make the classroom a better environment for their
> > children. That's not a bad thing at all, it's commendable at all
> > levels. But putting education of children other than your own into a
> > volunteer's hands is definately a bad thing in my opinion. YMMV.
>
> I can't speak for other volunteers, but my volunteering for the school
> has nothing to do with the social aspects of it---I'm not a
> particularly sociable person, and the other parents around the school
> are not necessarily who I would choose to socialize with.

But Kevin, you have a job. Of COURSE you're not looking at school
volunteering as your social life because you have one outside of the
school. My comments were directed towards SAHMs who hang out in the
school the entire day because they don't seem to have lives outside of
the school.

Right over the hill from you, in the city of the cats, my children
attended a school where this was not only commonplace, but there were
only a couple of working moms in the entire school. They would not
drop off their kids in the mornings, they drove the kid, walked the
kid to the classroom, sat down at the picnic tables right outside the
classroom doors, and held court every single day until it was time to
come into the classroom to 'help'. These same moms were hanging out no
matter what time of day it was, every day. This was their social life.
And that drove me nuts because there is no way a working parent can
compete with the level of volunteerism that these professional hangers
on did. So, the working parents were left out the the equation. They
were never the room parents, they were never the people who were
'chosen' to go on the field trips (in 3 years I was chosen all of ONCE
to attend a field trip, whereas the regular parents went on every
single one), they were never the ones who got to do the special
projects. All of that was reserved for the parents who never left the
campus.

I'm sure you experience this as well, although probably not with such
concentrated doses because, IIRC, your son attends a public school.


>
> Some of the things I've done in the last couple of years:
>
> In kindergarten, supervising students doing various craft
> projects---this was mainly making sure they knew what they were trying
> to do and gently bringing them back on task when they got distracted.
> Decreasing the child/adult ratio in the classroom makes it easier for
> the teacher to focus on the kids who need the most help.
>
> In kindergarten, sitting individually with children listening to them
> struggle with beginning reading and helping them sound out words they
> were having trouble with. (This was exactly what the teacher was
> doing also---having two adults doing it meant twice as many students
> were getting reading help that day.)

BTW, the difference between your examples and what my kids experienced
over the hill was that in our class we had 4 teachers for <20 kids.
They didn't NEED parents hanging out all the time. 1/2 of the class
was gone at any given time for Hebrew and religious training, so we
had 2 full time teachers for 10 kids. And the education still sucked!

Marjorie

[MarjiG]

In article >, "Rosalie B."
> writes:

>
>That doesn't matter - it doesn't make it necessary to volunteer just
>because the California schools aren't as good as they were.
>Volunteering is a bandaid. The schools need more than a bandaid just
>as a cancer patient does.

For those of us who have kids in the public schools today, I think it is
neccessary that we do whatever we can. Yes, I can work to get the funding and
other things changed, but in the meantime my kids ae growing up and getting (or
not getting) educated by the public school.

I do contribute financially beyond my true obligations, and I volunteer my
time. Incidentally, very little of my volunteering is direct student contact,
but it still gives me great insight into how things are going. And, I do find
that being there in the guise of working lets me observe in better ways than
going to observe would. Part of that is the school layout, there is nowhere I
can watch without being seen, but sitting in the back of the room collating
papers everyone soon forgets I am there.

For the OP, I guess I'd assumed she'd spoken to the teacher, since the reaction
seemed so severe. I would somehow get an opinion from someone other than the
teacher about how he's doing in class. And, the advice from Dawn to let him
make suggestions seemed particularly good. If he's the kind of kid that it
would help, maybe give him something he could keep in his pocket to comfort
himself. MIne have "pocket angels" They are about the size of a nickle, so fit
easily anywhere. I pick them up at the gift shop for a local art museum, and
hand them out to anyone that seems to need one. It could be anything though,
as long as he was convinced it would help.
-Marjorie

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(MarjiG) wrote:

>In article >, Nan
> writes:
>>
>>So what is it about today's teachers that requires all this
>>volunteerism???
>>
None of these things really relate to the teachers.

>Budget cuts
Not a good reason
>standardized tests
Neither a good reason NOR new - we've had standardized test for eons.
>"No child left behind"
That might be a problem, but I'm not sure that volunteers can really
help.
>"School to Work"
I'm not sure what that slogan stands for.

>lawsuits that removed the ability of schools to maintain discipline.

That one is one that is getting rid of the teachers we have. Again -
not sure how volunteers can help. Lack of teachers can't be remedied
by volunteers - lack of reading teachers in middle school is a lack of
a highly trained professional. An untrained volunteer isn't going to
be able to substitute.

I know two wonderful teachers - my children had them and I taught with
them (in open classrooms so I could really see what was going on) and
they are my friends - who retired as early as they could reasonably do
so (last fall) because they could not stand the lack of support from
the administration. The word of a child was automatically taken as
true in any incident. That's no more correct than to take the word of
a teacher in any incident. Children could not be suspended from
school no matter what their infraction including physically
threatening the teachers. No one should have to work under those
conditions. Teachers have rights too.

Some of that may be the principal involved of course and her
interpretation of the rules. But I fail to see how a volunteer in the
classroom would help with this situation.

>
>Of course, I remember hanging out in the office while my mom mimeographed
>papers for the school, while I was still a pre-schooler, so volunteering is
>hardly new.
>Later on she taught reading and writing workshops.

I think what is new is the idea that a LOT of parents should
volunteer.

I'd also like to ask - how could a parent who is a teacher volunteer?
Why should a parent who is a teacher be considered exempt from the
universal expectation to volunteer? Answer: Because we know that the
parent who is a teacher is working at a school while the volunteering
is going on.

If volunteering is something that helps schools, then it should be
everyone that volunteers, and not just parents. Like universal
military service in Israel. If the schools need more hands and heads
and bodies, why should it be just parents that help? If funding has
made the schools so strapped for cash that people are needed, then all
voters should make up the deficit. Because the schools are a
foundation and good education of children is in the interests of all
of society.


grandma Rosalie

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Jayne Kulikauskas > wrote:
*
*I do nothing to participate in my children's schools. I hate the thought of
*doing it. I do not understand why you presume to have expectations for my
*behaviour.

And you're proud of that? Wow. Can you explain a little bit why you feel
this way? Frankly, while I can't say I'm thrilled to pieces by the thought
of spending time in a preschool or elementary level classroom, I'm
horrified by the thought that I might be completely left out of the loop
with no idea what's going on, and I think maintaining some level of
participation is the only way to prevent that. Plus, of course, it seems
like a nice thing to do.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[MarjiG]

In article >, "Rosalie B."
> writes:

>None of these things really relate to the teachers.
>
>>Budget cuts
>Not a good reason

What does that mean? Teachers are asked to do more with less... If there is
some way I can ease that burden so they can spend their time on teaching,
clearly I should do that.

>>standardized tests
>Neither a good reason NOR new - we've had standardized test for eons.

Not like today.. There are so many, and such importance is placed on them that
all the teachers can do is teach to the test... Any student that falls behind,
or already knows a given topic is a child that needs time and attention the
teacher can't spare.

>>"No child left behind"
>That might be a problem, but I'm not sure that volunteers can really
>help.
It can help the children for whom the slogan is better stated "Everyone moves
at the paces of the slowest child."

>>"School to Work"
>I'm not sure what that slogan stands for.

Yet another program for teachers to deal with instead of teaching... Turning
kids into factory fodder, basically.

>
>>lawsuits that removed the ability of schools to maintain discipline.
>
>That one is one that is getting rid of the teachers we have. Again -
>not sure how volunteers can help. Lack of teachers can't be remedied
>by volunteers - lack of reading teachers in middle school is a lack of
>a highly trained professional. An untrained volunteer isn't going to
>be able to substitute.

Volunteers can do a lot, even in middle school. If they can work with the
students that aren't having problems the teacher can concentrate on the ones
that are.

I list the problem as one of not being allowed to discipline because I don't
think class size per se is a problem... High ranges of abilities, and
discipline problems that can't be resolved make large classes a problem, but
they would also be a problem in smaller classes.

>Some of that may be the principal involved of course and her
>interpretation of the rules. But I fail to see how a volunteer in the
>classroom would help with this situation.

Well, if they observed the incident they could report their view. Plus, just
having additional adults can be a help.
>
>
>I'd also like to ask - how could a parent who is a teacher volunteer?
>Why should a parent who is a teacher be considered exempt from the
>universal expectation to volunteer? Answer: Because we know that the
>parent who is a teacher is working at a school while the volunteering
>is going on.

At my kids school, the teachers who have kids there help at fundraisers and in
other ways that aren't during the school days, just like the parents that
volunteer in spite of other school hour commitments do.

>
>If volunteering is something that helps schools, then it should be
>everyone that volunteers, and not just parents. Like universal
>military service in Israel. If the schools need more hands and heads
>and bodies, why should it be just parents that help? If funding has
>made the schools so strapped for cash that people are needed, then all
>voters should make up the deficit. Because the schools are a
>foundation and good education of children is in the interests of all
>of society.
>
There are ways to help schools besides volunteering during the school day. And
yes, helping public schools is something that everyone *should* do... Even
those that don't have children in public schools. But, it appears that not
even those who are parents of children in public school agree with me.

-Marjorie

[Penny Gaines]

Iowacookiemom wrote in >:

>>At the time, I was too new in town to have had any other numbers to give
>>them --
>
> Does anyone have suggestions regarding this? We are brand, spanking new
> in our
> new community -- been here 5 whole weeks. My husband is reluctant to ask
> work friends to be our emergency contact since most of the folks he's
> gotten to know work *for* him and it seems like an unfair request from a
> supervisor to a
> subordinate. We haven't yet found a church, and we barely know neighbors.
> Has anyone out there solved this creatively?

We put the one set of neighbours we knew, my sister (over an hours drive
away) and my parents (even further). As far as I can remember, the school
has never used any of those numbers.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Scott Lindstrom]

Hillary Israeli wrote:
> In >,
> Jayne Kulikauskas > wrote:
> *
> *I do nothing to participate in my children's schools. I hate the thought of
> *doing it. I do not understand why you presume to have expectations for my
> *behaviour.
>
> And you're proud of that? Wow. Can you explain a little bit why you feel
> this way? Frankly, while I can't say I'm thrilled to pieces by the thought
> of spending time in a preschool or elementary level classroom, I'm
> horrified by the thought that I might be completely left out of the loop
> with no idea what's going on, and I think maintaining some level of
> participation is the only way to prevent that. Plus, of course, it seems
> like a nice thing to do.

I am fortunate that my kids have had teachers who communicate
with parents very effectively. They realize that not all
parents are in the classroom. Saying that volunteering is
the only way of knowing what's going on in a classroom is
damning with exceedingly faint praise the communication
abilities of your child(ren)'s teacher. You should expect
better.

I read nothing in Jayne's post, incidentally, that said she
was proud of her non-participatory status. Didn't she
just write a simple fact that she doesn't and dreads the
thought?

Scott DD 10 and DS 7

[Jayne Kulikauskas]

"Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
...
> In >,
> Jayne Kulikauskas > wrote:
> *
> *I do nothing to participate in my children's schools. I hate the thought
of
> *doing it. I do not understand why you presume to have expectations for
my
> *behaviour.
>
> And you're proud of that? Wow. Can you explain a little bit why you feel
> this way?

There are a combination of reasons. Last year I had children in 4 different
schools. One was a coop nursery school that I had to go to. That was quite
enough dealing with other people's children for me. I was unhappy in school
as a child and still feel uncomfortable in school buildings. I have seven
children and am already at the limit of what I can handle in regards to
children .

I am neither proud not ashamed of not doing any school volunteering last
year. I am not going to do something that I do not want to do because other
people expect it of me. I'm proud of that.

> Frankly, while I can't say I'm thrilled to pieces by the thought
> of spending time in a preschool or elementary level classroom, I'm
> horrified by the thought that I might be completely left out of the loop
> with no idea what's going on, and I think maintaining some level of
> participation is the only way to prevent that. Plus, of course, it seems
> like a nice thing to do.

I talked to the my children's teachers and I talked to my children. I was
not completely out of the loop. Volunteering at school is a nice thing to
do, but that does not mean that everyone should do it. The world is full of
nice things to do and one person can not do them all.

Jayne

[Noreen Cooper]

Rosalie B. > wrote:

: That doesn't matter - it doesn't make it necessary to volunteer just
: because the California schools aren't as good as they were.
: Volunteering is a bandaid. The schools need more than a bandaid just
: as a cancer patient does.

I wonder if you really took up the challenge to see where California
schools ranks nationally between then and now? It's quite the points
spread.

Ideology vs. reality again. Okay, I agree. The schools in California
need more than the bandaid volunteers provide. And if funds continue to
be cut back year after year, class sizes increase, many vital programs are
cut, the state is in an overload financial emergency right now; so what do
you suggest be done other than volunteer to help out the schools under the
circumstances?

Noreen

[Christopher Biow]

(MarjiG) wrote:
>Nan > writes:

>>So what is it about today's teachers that requires all this volunteerism???

>Budget cuts...

Dependence upon the vagaries of government funding is a challenge, whether
one is trying to run an educational establishment, waste management system,
or armed force. It guarantees something of a boom-and-bust cycle, inherent
in anything that feeds at the public trough. But is this significantly
different that a generation ago?

Does anyone have good figures for US schools that shows a generational
*decrease* in educational funding (avoiding boom-to-bust comparisons)? Or
perhaps a decrease net of mandatory spending of various sorts?

Perhaps there are such numbers, but what little I've seen has been in the
direction of gradual increase and has shown only marginal correlation with
educational outcomes. I don't believe that budgetary limitations are a
significant factor in school performance or the general, increased
expectation for parental volunteerism. It certainly could explain a
temporary demand for parents to fill in during budget busts, such as the US
states are seeing now.

>standardized tests

When used to evaluate schools and teachers, these metrics certainly distort
the systems they are meant to observe, perhaps reversing the good
intentions behind them. Again, it's a universal problem with any human
metrics system. I'm not sure how that involves volunteers one way or the
other.

The main role I've seen myself in as a parent with the Virginia Standards
of Learning (SOL--unfortunate acronym there) is in reassuring my kids that
they should not share in the teachers' tension over these metrics,
encouraging them to resist any tendency by the teachers to pass on their
nervousness. I feel that the administrations don't do enough to dissuade
the teachers from this somewhat unprofessional behavior.

>"No child left behind"

That looks to be more required, useless thrashing about based upon random
statistical variations, but such trends in education seem to have been
coming along for many years, with our without Federal mandate. Perhaps this
one will be even stupider and worse than past ones, but what parental
volunteerism has to do with it, I don't know.

>"School to Work"

New one to me, but browsing
<http://www.stwclearinghouse.org/showcase/index.asp> it sounds as if it's
just an new label on what we called "career awareness" 25 years ago.

Every school seems to have to drone on for a few paragraphs of their
mission statement with ritual pronouncements on inclusion practices,
school-to-work, ESL, mentoring, gifted and special ed, community
engagement, technology, and diversity.

I'm having a hard time finding examples of parental volunteerism in
association with this, unless it's as field-trip chaperones. Has anybody's
volunteer work been in association with this movement?

>lawsuits that removed the ability of schools to maintain discipline

Again, I don't see where parents can have more than marginal effect. If
this is a serious problem, I'm not sure that there is any solution this
side of corrective Federal legislation, or else abandonment of public
education. But what figures I have seen on US public school performance
seem to show a generally improving trend the last ten years. Perhaps the
turnaround from "defining deviancy down" and the funding boom of the late
'90s has been paying off here, as well as in more gross measures such as
the extraordinary decline in US violent crime.

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Scott Lindstrom > wrote:

*> Jayne Kulikauskas > wrote:
*> *
*> *I do nothing to participate in my children's schools. I hate the thought of
*> *doing it. I do not understand why you presume to have expectations for my
*> *behaviour.
*
*I am fortunate that my kids have had teachers who communicate
*with parents very effectively. They realize that not all
*parents are in the classroom. Saying that volunteering is
*the only way of knowing what's going on in a classroom is
*damning with exceedingly faint praise the communication
*abilities of your child(ren)'s teacher. You should expect
*better.

That's true - I do expect good communication. I guess I misspoke, seems to
be happening a lot lately. Let me try again...

I think that if one does not participate in some way, one does not have as
much of a say in what goes on in the classroom, and one is less likely to
be as aware of what is going on when it is going on.

*I read nothing in Jayne's post, incidentally, that said she
*was proud of her non-participatory status. Didn't she
*just write a simple fact that she doesn't and dreads the
*thought?

Yes, I think perhaps I overinterpreted. I was out extremely late last
night and didn't sleep well. It was our anniversary and I celebrated too
much. Whoops :)

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[H Schinske]

Jayne ) wrote:

>Volunteering at school is a nice thing to
>do, but that does not mean that everyone should do it. The world is full of
>nice things to do and one person can not do them all.

This is absolutely true. I expect my *school*, as a whole, to have a lot of
volunteering going on in it. But I do not see why every single parent should
have to be involved as a volunteer.

--Helen

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:
>>Larger class sizes in many cases. Heterogeneous grouping of
>>students at all different ability levels in the same class.
>
>We had that 20 years ago and it was regarded as appropriate and in
>fact for better learning of all the children - at least research
>showed that.

The research isn't as clear anymore. What I've seen suggests it is
good for average and below-average students, and not so good for
above-average students. I'll try to find some references later.

Regardless, I think you would agree that having to meet the needs
of a wide variety of students at the same time demands more of a
teacher than having to meet the needs of a more homogeneous group.

I'm sure some teachers can and have in the past done a great job
of this with no parental help; I'm also sure that many feel/felt
they need(ed) help to *really* meet everyone's needs.

Also, I think parents are more aware that their children's needs
may not be being met in this model, and are more proactive about
doing what they feel needs to be done to rectify it.
I also think parents are more

>
>>fewer "resource teachers" available within the school to help out
>>individuals needing extra help or enrichment. Also different
>>expectations on teachers today (both educational and beaurocratic).
>
>The resource teachers are mandated by law for special needs students.
>The school cannot eliminate them.

When I was a kid, they were also available to help the above-average
students who needed higher-level or faster instruction. This is
rarely the case today.

>I truly don't see that any of those things are a reason to volunteer.

They're not necessarily "a reason to volunteer". They are all reasons
why, IMO, teachers and students may need/benefit from volunteers more
now than they did in the past.

I also think parental expectations are changing, and to the extent that
parents add additional expectations of teachers, they are often also
willing to help them meet those. I know I expect more out of my children's
school than my parents (very involved; I mean no slight to my parents)
expected of my schools.

>I basically agree with Banty. The schools are supposed to teach my
>child. That's their job.

Yes it is. And if I can help them do it better, I'm willing and
motivated. I don't "expect" anyone else to do the same. I do
it both selfishly for my children's benefit and altruistically
for the benefit of other children. Do you think parent volunteers
hurt teachers or children? Do you think they can help?

>I will go farther than that. If there are schools that need
>volunteers, I think they are the private schools. Private schools
>have FAR less resources than public schools.


I'm not sure you can generalize. But my children are now in a
private school that definitely nees parental help in many, many
different ways.

--Robyn

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, Rosalie B. wrote:
> x-no-archive:yes Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>
>>Nan > wrote:
>>
>>: So you're saying that this mass push for parental volunteers has been
>>: going strong since the 70s?
>>: Every state has suffered budget cuts. I don't buy it as a compelling
>>: reason.
>>
>>You don't have to buy it. You can look up where California's public
>>schools ranked before Proposition 13 in the 70's and where the state
>>ranks today. Quite verifiable.
>
> That doesn't matter - it doesn't make it necessary to volunteer just
> because the California schools aren't as good as they were.
> Volunteering is a bandaid. The schools need more than a bandaid just
> as a cancer patient does.

I agree that volunteering is a band-aid, but changing school funding is
a difficult job. Not only did Prop 13 limit the property tax base, but
it and other tax reforms moved all funding from local to state control.
It also now requires a 2/3 vote to raise any taxes locally (the measure
that put that requirement in place did not pass with a 2/3 vote).
The three-strikes law that puts huge numbers of minor criminals in
jail for life has created a prison system that is so huge and
expensive that the union for prison guards is a major political force
in state government. I don't know if any of the 136 candidates for
governor have come out and stated that Prop 13 has been a disastrous
give-away to the wealthy---certainly the corporate media has been
strong in claiming that everyone loves Prop 13 (the biggest winners
have been large corporations which hold onto property for a long time
and so pay essentially no property tax in California). The initiative
process in California has allowed demagogues to make our political
process into a circus that benefits only the already wealthy---but
that is a rant for a different newsgroup.

The demands on the schools have increased---for example, the
requirements for what services and facilities they need to provide for
disabled students have increased, while the funding they get to
provide these services has decreased.

California schools have declined from being the best and the
best-funded schools in the country to being among the worst funded
(certainly the worst funded, when the cost of living is taken into
account---the states with lower per-pupil spending also have much
lower costs of living).

We volunteer, because the other choice is to have the school system
fall apart completely.

I agree with another poster (sorry, I forgot to copy the attribution)
who said

> Schools should be well funded enough to provide all the educational
> services! Parent volunteers should be for fun stuff and optional stuff
> -- warm bodies to chaperone kids, stuffing envelopes, raising money
> for luxuries, etc.

If only that were the case!

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Noreen Cooper]

Rosalie B. > wrote:

: I suggest
: a) getting some political clout and reversing the financial emergency
: situation if that is what appeals to you (run for governor or work for
: someone who you think would do a good job).

And like that really is going to make any difference in the short term.
Now how would you go about getting some political clout to turn a
financial emergency situation around by (say) by Tuesday when school
starts. Sheez.

: b) home schooling (there's where a parent is really involved) or

Like that is really going to solve the public school crisis if all the
involved parents homeschool their kids. I don't want to homeschool my
son. As I said, I enjoy volunteering in the classroom even though my son
is one grade ahead of most of his peers.

: c) making sure my own children have what they need to succeed in
: school, checking to be sure they are getting appropriate skills, and
: probably supplementing their education as Wendy is doing I think.

That's already been done. I enjoy helping out the kids who are less
fortunate, especially the ESL students who come from homes where English
is not spoken at home. These children come in at a distinct disadvantage
and I believe I've made a difference in a number of kids' lives by
offering some extra help.

: And stop complaining that other parents are not volunteering so that
: must be why the schools are so bad. It's not.

Where in the world are you getting the idea that *I* am complaining about
other parents not volunteering at school? I specifically stated that
parents who don't want to be in the classroom should keep out. The
schools are bad because of poor funding. Volunteers are helping a bit to
alleviate the situation. If you want to extrapolate, that's your
business but I never said anything of the sort.

Let's get back to the OP, okay? Some person complained about their
kindergartener having a tough time adjusting to school. I suggested if
the intense separation anxiety doesn't improve in a week that she should
consider volunteering as a way of scouting out the classroom situation.
And somehow that gets turned into my believing people who don't volunteer
are screwing up California public schools? Wow, simply amazing.

Noreen

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >,
chiam margalit wrote:
> (Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
>> In article >,
>> chiam margalit wrote:
>> > Parent volunteering is, imo, really more about the social aspects of
>> > parenting school age children than it is about helping to teach. I
>> > don't have a problem with this, I think it's probably a much better
>> > idea than allowing parents access to graded projects, tests, etc. The
>> > lack of knowledge about what is and should be going on in a classroom
>> > needs to be recognized for what it is: goodhearted and well meaning
>> > parents who want to make the classroom a better environment for their
>> > children. That's not a bad thing at all, it's commendable at all
>> > levels. But putting education of children other than your own into a
>> > volunteer's hands is definately a bad thing in my opinion. YMMV.
>>
>> I can't speak for other volunteers, but my volunteering for the school
>> has nothing to do with the social aspects of it---I'm not a
>> particularly sociable person, and the other parents around the school
>> are not necessarily who I would choose to socialize with.
>
> But Kevin, you have a job. Of COURSE you're not looking at school
> volunteering as your social life because you have one outside of the
> school. My comments were directed towards SAHMs who hang out in the
> school the entire day because they don't seem to have lives outside of
> the school.

At my son's school, the stay-at-home mom is a relatively rare
phenomenon. The people who volunteer in the classrooms are mainly
working one at a time---there isn't much adult socialization involved.
The parents' art committee, the home-school club, and the school site
council consisted mostly of working parents, who were
volunteering their time for these activities because they couldn't
volunteer during the day. Two of the biggest fund raisers this year
(making and selling 1000s of tamales) were run by a woman who has no
children in the school, organizing a group of mainly working mothers.
The "Bilingual Parents" group (a misnomer, since quite a few were
monolingual in Spanish) did a lot of volunteer work, though almost all
of them were working full time. It probably helped that the bilingual
kindergarten teacher who was the school liaison to the bilingual
parents' group was a well-loved teacher who volunteered a lot of her
own time. Some of the in-school volunteers were working people with
unusual schedules (firefighters, for example) who managed their
volunteer schedules around their work schedules.

Of course not everyone can (or wants to or should) volunteer, but
there are usually lots of opportunities even for working parents to be
involved with the school and help compensate for the gross
underfunding.


> Right over the hill from you, in the city of the cats, my children
> attended a school where this was not only commonplace, but there were
> only a couple of working moms in the entire school. They would not
> drop off their kids in the mornings, they drove the kid, walked the
> kid to the classroom, sat down at the picnic tables right outside the
> classroom doors, and held court every single day until it was time to
> come into the classroom to 'help'. These same moms were hanging out no
> matter what time of day it was, every day. This was their social life.
> And that drove me nuts because there is no way a working parent can
> compete with the level of volunteerism that these professional hangers
> on did. So, the working parents were left out the the equation. They
> were never the room parents, they were never the people who were
> 'chosen' to go on the field trips (in 3 years I was chosen all of ONCE
> to attend a field trip, whereas the regular parents went on every
> single one), they were never the ones who got to do the special
> projects. All of that was reserved for the parents who never left the
> campus.

This sounds like dysfunctional organization and poor planning by the
school. Of course, almost all the field trips my son took were in
walking distance of the school, or were by city bus, so no limitation
was put on how many parents could attend. (The ones that weren't
were in parent-driven cars, so a plea was sent out for enough
volunteers to drive everyone.)

> BTW, the difference between your examples and what my kids experienced
> over the hill was that in our class we had 4 teachers for <20 kids.
> They didn't NEED parents hanging out all the time. 1/2 of the class
> was gone at any given time for Hebrew and religious training, so we
> had 2 full time teachers for 10 kids. And the education still sucked!

Even the private schools in Santa Cruz don't manage 5:1
student-teacher ratios. With that high a ratio, I can see why the
parent volunteers are superfluous and turn to socializing to while
away the idle hours. I'm surprised though that such an apparently
involved parent group would tolerate an education that "still sucked".
Perhaps the school was set up more as a social club than as an
educational institution---that is, sending kids there was intended as
a marker of social status, not as a way to educate kids (that can be
a danger with very pricey schools). Of course, if you are looking for
religious education as well, then your choices may be limited.

Every year I agonize over the public/private school decision, though
so far the bilingual program at the public school has been enough of
an incentive to keep us in the public school system. When the
bilingual program ends after third grade, the decision will quite
likely go the other way, as the public school has almost no program
for gifted students (I believe the state allocates $10,000 for the
gifted program for the whole school, which has about 600 students).

Luckily, there is a private school near us that has an excellent
reputation for academic excellence (I know several of the parents who
have kids in the school), so if we have to bail out of public school,
we have another option.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>
>Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
>might judge you. ;-)

You put a smiley here, so it's not clear whether you're serious or not,
but later posts suggest that you meant this.

If so, that's a rather, well, judgemental attitude to take.

Surely it does not take much imagination to come up with scenarios
in which a person's resources (time, energy, money, etc.) are best
spent on things other than helping out their local schools.

To clarify, do you have this expectation on all members of the
community, only parents, only mothers, only one adult per family,
or....?


--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Iowacookiemom]

>Some people probably can't participate in the schools (for example, have
>a job which makes it impossible for them to do so), and I could
>understand why they might not participate, but I don't understand how a
>parent would not *want* to participate.

I think there are lots of reasons.

When Henry attended an inner-city school, many parents didn't participate in
school because their own school experiences as kids were so negative that they
were fearful of school A few wouldn't even come into the building, according
to the principal. Others had younger ones at home and no child care for those
kids, so getting to the 2nd grade classroom to help out was impossible. Still
others were disabled, mentally or physically.

And while I saw these problems first at an inner-city school, they really could
happen anywhere. Your affluent, CEO-type neighbor may have been sexually
abused by a third grade teacher and just can't bear to step in to a classroom.
Your child's best friend's mom may have her hands full with twin toddlers, with
no in-town relatives and few options for child care. That lady down the street
who stays at home and seems to have a lot of time on her hands may be
struggling with MS, or alcoholism.

Or, they may just not want to help. They may help our society in other ways.
They may be involved in their child's *education* at church, through a scouting
program, etc. Surely you don't think *all* education happens in the school?

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[Iowacookiemom]

wrote:
>Volunteering at school is a nice thing to
>do, but that does not mean that everyone should do it.

This sensible thought led me to another aspect I'm not sure we've discussed.
Some people *shouldn't* volunteer in schools. They they have short tempers.
They are prone to violence. They may have been abused as kids and feel they
are at high risk of abusing kids. They don't understand kids and don't feel
they can be of service.

It's possible that the very people some of us are judging for not volunteering
are actually making the most responsible choice of all by staying away.

Not to imply, certainly, that anyone on this thread who has indicated they
don't volunteer would fall into that category -- but the idea that *everyone*
should do *anything* strikes me as problematic.

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[Iowacookiemom]

wrote:
>This is absolutely true. I expect my *school*, as a whole, to have a lot of
>volunteering going on in it. But I do not see why every single parent should
>have to be involved as a volunteer

It's really the school's (or any other organization that uses volunteers)
responsibility to find ways to make the volunteer work meaningful, fun and/or
rewarding enough that folks will want to do it. I've coordinated volunteers at
several organizations, and you can't fault the volunteers if they're not
helping. IMO you need to look in the mirror in those cases.

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[Jayne Kulikauskas]

"Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
...
> In >,
> Scott Lindstrom > wrote:

[]
> *I read nothing in Jayne's post, incidentally, that said she
> *was proud of her non-participatory status. Didn't she
> *just write a simple fact that she doesn't and dreads the
> *thought?
>
> Yes, I think perhaps I overinterpreted. I was out extremely late last
> night and didn't sleep well. It was our anniversary and I celebrated too
> much. Whoops :)

Congratulations. It's good to know that I was overinterpreted for a good
cause. I hope you had fun. <g>

Jayne

[Circe]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> This seems nutty to me. I don't see how such a suggestion implies
> asking them to do anything in the future. It's just asking them what
> goes on in the room. Nor, to me, does it sound like asking anything at
> all about your child. Asking about classroom dynamics is asking about
> classroom dynamics. What goes on in the class? What is the teacher
> like? How do the kids (collectively) behave? All stuff I'd really want
> to know about my children's classes, and I don't see how you can know
> unless either you are there, at least occasionally, or you ask people
> who are there.
>
What, you think your *child* can't tell you anything about these things? My
child *did* complain to me that a particular part of his school day was
boring and that he disliked it. Based on that complaint, I went and observed
because I wanted to know whether his report was based on perception or
reality. I am sorry to say it was based on reality. Unfortunately, at that
point in the school year, changing teachers was not really an option, so we
muddled through as best we could a less than ideal kindergarten year.

But, by and large, my oldest can be pretty well relied upon to report
accurately at to what's going on in his classroom. And I know what they are
learning because it comes home as completed papers and in the homework.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Under loves spell" -- Disney Princess shirt slogan

[Kevin Karplus]

In article <qow1b.8745$Qy4.3473@fed1read05>, Circe wrote:
> "Nan" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:14:08 EDT, Noreen Cooper
>> > wrote:
>> >Nan > wrote:
>> >
>> >: So you're saying that this mass push for parental volunteers has been
>> >: going strong since the 70s?
>> >: Every state has suffered budget cuts. I don't buy it as a compelling
>> >: reason.
>> >
>> >You don't have to buy it. You can look up where California's public
>> >schools ranked before Proposition 13 in the 70's and where the state
>> >ranks today. Quite verifiable.
>>
>> So? It still doesn't justify the push for volunteerism.
>>
> Any number of government agencies are strapped for cash. Nonetheless, no one
> seems to be suggesting that private citizens volunteer to take up a police
> beat in order to ensure they have adequate police protection or put in a few
> hours helping people register their cars and get driver licenses at the DMV
> to reduce long lines and improve service for everyone. I am not completely
> sure why parents are expected to fall over themselves volunteering to help
> their kids' schools do what they are instituted and funded to do.

Actually, the police budget got cut this year in Santa Cruz, and the
first thing to go were crossing guards (who were not police officers
but were paid out of the police budget). You guessed it---they're
hoping that parent volunteers will take over the crossing-guards'
duties.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Kevin Karplus]

In article <sew1b.8744$Qy4.7324@fed1read05>, Circe wrote:
> What, you think your *child* can't tell you anything about these things? My
> child *did* complain to me that a particular part of his school day was
> boring and that he disliked it. Based on that complaint, I went and observed
> because I wanted to know whether his report was based on perception or
> reality. I am sorry to say it was based on reality. Unfortunately, at that
> point in the school year, changing teachers was not really an option, so we
> muddled through as best we could a less than ideal kindergarten year.
>
> But, by and large, my oldest can be pretty well relied upon to report
> accurately at to what's going on in his classroom. And I know what they are
> learning because it comes home as completed papers and in the homework.

This varies a lot from child to child. Getting my son to tell me
anything about school is like pulling teeth. No, I take that
back---he likes going to the dentist and had no problem when two of
his front teeth had to be pulled because they were still firmly in
place even though the permanent teeth were fully erupted.

When I have managed to get information from him, it was often
surprising. At one point last year, I found out that his least
favorite part of school was recess. It turned out that there was some
minor bullying going on among the 1st-grade boys. I informed the
teacher privately (who already knew who was involved and promised to
put a stop to it).

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[David desJardins]

Nan wrote:
>> So you're saying that this mass push for parental volunteers has been
>> going strong since the 70s? Every state has suffered budget cuts. I
>> don't buy it as a compelling reason.

Noreen Cooper writes:
> You don't have to buy it. You can look up where California's public
> schools ranked before Proposition 13 in the 70's and where the state
> ranks today. Quite verifiable.

I tend to agree with Nan here. While no one can doubt that Prop 13,
along with other demographic changes, has crippled the California public
schools, I think there's more to volunteerism in the schools than just
budget issues. I think there's a genuine, if incremental, shift in
thinking: there really is a realization that educating children in
partnership with parents is a better approach than leaving parents out
of the equation, under the misguided theory that "professionals" know
best and parents have nothing really to contribute (which I really think
was the attitude of many school administrators and teachers in the 60s
and 70s).

If, to some extent, bringing parents into the schools is a side effect
of budget cuts and Prop 13, then it's perhaps the only good thing that's
come out of that.

David desJardins

[Noreen Cooper]

Robyn Kozierok > wrote:

: Noreen Cooper > wrote:
:>
:>Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
:>might judge you. ;-)

: Surely it does not take much imagination to come up with scenarios
: in which a person's resources (time, energy, money, etc.) are best
: spent on things other than helping out their local schools.

No, I think it's incredibly easy for anyone who has a child in public
school to do something. That something doesn't need involve volunteering
onsite five days a week. Banty said she did nothing for her son's school
and then said she donated his old children's books. Sorry, but that is
doing *something* for a local school.

Judgemental I'll be. If you have a kid in school, there are a number of
ways a parent can help out and usually parents end up doing something.
That's all that matters.

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

Circe > wrote:

: Any number of government agencies are strapped for cash. Nonetheless, no one
: seems to be suggesting that private citizens volunteer to take up a police
: beat in order to ensure they have adequate police protection or put in a few
: hours helping people register their cars and get driver licenses at the DMV
: to reduce long lines and improve service for everyone. I am not completely
: sure why parents are expected to fall over themselves volunteering to help
: their kids' schools do what they are instituted and funded to do.
: --

It takes a little more training to be a police officer than a parent
volunteer in an elementary school, and especially in the early grades
when many children can't even read, some don't even know their colors,
and at my son's school, around a quarter can't even speak English.

Noreen

[MarjiG]

In article >,
(Iowacookiemom) writes:

>
>Not to imply, certainly, that anyone on this thread who has indicated they
>don't volunteer would fall into that category -- but the idea that *everyone*
>should do *anything* strikes me as problematic.
>

That's a good point, although most of us have said "everyone should help" not
"everyone should volunteer." There is a difference. And, even if it hasn't
been explicitly stated, there is an understanding that different families will
have different abilities to help.

And, as has been stated repeatedly, "everyone should help" is meant as an
opinion of a societal obligation, not that we think the school should start
enforcing some sort of mandatory volunteering schedule.

I personally think that the obligation to help public schools cannot be negated
by other community volunteering one might or might not do, or by what job one
holds or does not hold.

Most schools do have plenty of options for those that want to help without
actually being involved with the students.

-Marjorie

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Kevin Karplus > wrote:
>In article <qow1b.8745$Qy4.3473@fed1read05>, Circe wrote:
>> "Nan" > wrote in message

>> Any number of government agencies are strapped for cash. Nonetheless, no one
>> seems to be suggesting that private citizens volunteer to take up a police
>> beat in order to ensure they have adequate police protection or put in a few
>> hours helping people register their cars and get driver licenses at the DMV
>> to reduce long lines and improve service for everyone. I am not completely
>> sure why parents are expected to fall over themselves volunteering to help
>> their kids' schools do what they are instituted and funded to do.
>
>Actually, the police budget got cut this year in Santa Cruz, and the
>first thing to go were crossing guards (who were not police officers
>but were paid out of the police budget). You guessed it---they're
>hoping that parent volunteers will take over the crossing-guards'
>duties.

Lots of towns have volunteer fire departments, and volunteer EMTs, etc.
Neighborhood watch programs ask citizens to (informally) patrol their
own neighborhoods. *Lots* of agencies that are strapped for cash look
to qualified volunteers to fill the need.

--Robyn

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
Noreen Cooper > wrote:

>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
This was in response to your question:
>>the state is in an overload financial emergency right now; so what do
>>you suggest be done other than volunteer to help out the schools under the
>>circumstances?

>: I suggest
>: a) getting some political clout and reversing the financial emergency
>: situation if that is what appeals to you (run for governor or work for
>: someone who you think would do a good job).
>
>And like that really is going to make any difference in the short term.

Who said anything about the short term? This is going to have to be a
long term thing, which should have started before Prop. 13 was passed
and should be a continuing on-going project.

>Now how would you go about getting some political clout to turn a
>financial emergency situation around by (say) by Tuesday when school
>starts. Sheez.

Like I said - California voters (and others) put their heads in the
sand like ostriches and then you throw up your hands and say - well
how can I do anything by Tuesday. It's what should have been being
done all along - maybe instead of volunteering in the schools. Two
years ago, we wanted solar panels for the boat and couldn't get them
because there was an energy crisis in California. -- this is NOT NEW.
so the fix can NOT BE INSTANT.
>
>: b) home schooling (there's where a parent is really involved) or
>
You asked me what I would suggest. Just because you don't want to do
it doesn't mean it isn't a viable suggestion.

>Like that is really going to solve the public school crisis if all the
>involved parents homeschool their kids. I don't want to homeschool my
>son. As I said, I enjoy volunteering in the classroom even though my son
>is one grade ahead of most of his peers.

I think if a significant number of parents home schooled, there would
at least be less of a problem with class size. And you don't want to
home school and you like to volunteer.- but this started because David
said
> I don't understand how a
>parent would not *want* to participate.

and you agreed with him did you not? (with some surprise IIRC)
>
>: c) making sure my own children have what they need to succeed in
>: school, checking to be sure they are getting appropriate skills, and
>: probably supplementing their education as Wendy is doing I think.
>
>That's already been done. I enjoy helping out the kids who are less
>fortunate, especially the ESL students who come from homes where English
>is not spoken at home. These children come in at a distinct disadvantage
>and I believe I've made a difference in a number of kids' lives by
>offering some extra help.
>
>: And stop complaining that other parents are not volunteering so that
>: must be why the schools are so bad. It's not.
>
>Where in the world are you getting the idea that *I* am complaining about
>other parents not volunteering at school? I specifically stated that

It was YOUR suggestion that the OP talk to a 'parent who volunteers
regularly' that set off the whole wild thread that diverged from the
OP's request. Others said that they were looked down on because they
can't or don't want to volunteer. You enjoy volunteering and you
associated yourself with those who think volunteers are necessary and
useful and you appear to be defending those people who think that
everyone should volunteer.

>parents who don't want to be in the classroom should keep out. The
>schools are bad because of poor funding. Volunteers are helping a bit to
>alleviate the situation. If you want to extrapolate, that's your
>business but I never said anything of the sort.


grandma Rosalie

[Scott Lindstrom]

In article >,
(Kimberly) wrote:

> Need any and all advice! :( My 5 year old boy just started
> kindergarten last Tuesday. My problem is every morning when I drop
> him off at his classroom, he goes into a horrible fit mode, he's even
> ripped my shirt on one occasion.
>
> I've tried everything. I've tried being very firm with him (very),
> closing the classroom door, etc. I've tried "talking" to him - nothing
> works. I've tried dropping him off at the curb (they have a car
> system where a teacher will walk the k'gartners to their class) and
> its even worse.
>
> Physically he's a big and strong kid, which doesn't help.
>
> I'm at my wits end and have no idea what to do. His dad and I have
> tried talking to him about it at home, but bottom line: when he gets
> to the door of the classroom, he freaks out.
>
> Please help!!

I think several things may be going on. Others
have mentioned them, but they may have been lost
in the noise.

Are you yourself in any way ambivalent about his
starting kindergarten? Is he stressing out because
you are as well? There can be a very nice positive
feedback here if he's freaking out 'cause you're all
stressed, and you get more stressed because he's
freaking out. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. The mantra
"This too shall pass" may help here as he clings
stubbornly to his buttons. Perhaps in a week,
perhaps in a month, he will be going into the classroom
without looking back as you wistfully watch him
gain independence.

Maybe a little play-acting or role playing would
help. You could play the teacher, and you ask
him what the teacher is doing, and what he does, etc.
It might give you insight into what he is feeling.

You can ask the teacher for suggestions, or other
parents.

This is almost certainly just a phase, so don't
freak out yourself about it ;)

I'd be interested to know how things evolve.

Scott DD 10 and DS 7 (both with the same great teachers
this year as last -- minimal angst when school starts!)

[chiam margalit]

"Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message >...
> "David desJardins" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Marjorie writes:
> > > Fourth, once your children reach middle school age, all of this is
> > > moot. They don't have parent volunteers in the middle school
> > > classrooms, thank goodness, and the parental competition dies on the
> > > vine.
> >
> > Now that you mention this, it certainly seems true that there's less
> > volunteer help in the middle and high schools (although I don't agree
> > there's none). I wonder why that is? My first thought is that, as
> > children get older, they have less respect for any arbitrary adult, just
> > because that person is an adult, and so it's harder for volunteers to
> > come in and be treated with respect and to be effective. I wonder if
> > that's the reason, or if there's some other reason.
>
> I think partly it's because the subjects have become too advanced to
> assume any volunteer can teach them.

I think that this is indeed true, but I also think it has to do with
the size of middle schools, the block system, and the impossibility of
keeping track of parent volunteers in a large building where people
are on the move every 50 minutes. Unlike elementary school, in middle
school both kids AND teachers move about the building, and it can be a
bit of a logistical nightmare. I don't know why parents aren't invited
to volunteer in the classroom, but I'm happy they aren't.

Parents can volunteer to do traffic duty, work in the cafeteria, help
with after school programs, etc. There are things to do, just not in
the classroom.

Marjorie

[David desJardins]

Bev Brandt writes:
> I think that any parent that volunteers at the school during the day
> should do so because they can contribute to the (underfunded)
> workload, not to monitor classroom dynamics. I don't want any unpaid,
> non-professional - including myself, to some degree (I have obvious
> biases) - to evaluate my child's academic and social progress in the
> school.

I have to say that this idea that parents aren't qualified to evaluate
and teach and raise their children---that somehow the "professionals"
know more about my own child than I do---I really thought was solely an
invention of the educational establishment to keep parents from
interfering in their world. I've never heard a parent buy into it to
the degree that you seem to.

> It shouldn't have to be this way. We shouldn't have to rely upon
> non-professionals to give us a review of the classroom situation as it
> pertains to academics and social structure. Teachers should be more
> communicative with parents. Counselors and principals should be in the
> classroom more to make better judgement calls about those dynamics.
>
> This is not a SAH vs. WOH parent rivalry. It's too bad that you see it
> that way. If there is a "rivalry" it's between parents and our
> expectations and schools and their apparent lack of resources.

There's certainly a big difference in our expectations. My expectation
is that my own opinions and observations regarding my own child, whom I
know better than anyone, are worth more than any number of "counselors
and principals". (And certainly I know from my own experience in school
that my parents' judgment about the school situations was a lot more
cogent than that of the "paid professionals".) I daresay the person who
originally made the suggestion also placed a whole lot more faith in
their own judgment than you seem willing to put in yours. I think this
is the fundamental difference here.

David desJardins

[David desJardins]

Barbara writes:
>> All stuff I'd really want to know about my children's classes, and I
>> don't see how you can know unless either you are there, at least
>> occasionally, or you ask people who are there.
>
> What, you think your *child* can't tell you anything about these
> things? My child *did* complain to me that a particular part of his
> school day was boring and that he disliked it. Based on that
> complaint, I went and observed because I wanted to know whether his
> report was based on perception or reality.

Since you're saying that you went and observed to find out what was
going on, which is exactly what I put forth as the way to find out
what's going on, I find it hard to see what it is in my posting you
think you're disagreeing with.

If you really believed that observing the class is not a good way to
find out what's going on in the class, then it would be awfully hard to
explain why you chose it as your way to find out what was going on in
the class.

David desJardins

[Noreen Cooper]

Circe > wrote:

: What, you think your *child* can't tell you anything about these things? My
: child *did* complain to me that a particular part of his school day was
: boring and that he disliked it.

Not all small children can be relied on to be as articulate as your son.
But you did exactly what I suggested to the OP, you checked it out
yourself, found the class wanting. But to let you know, some of us who do
volunteer chose to do so as a way of enhancing the classroom experience
for everyone, not only for our own child.

This ire about school volunteers seems senseless under those
circumstances. It's like "I can't" or "I won't" or "I refuse to"
volunteer in schools therefore anyone who does so is either misguided or
useless or are there for all the wrong reasons. Sheez.

If you haven't stepped a foot into a classroom to see what the teachers
need, you have absolutely no point of reference to judge school volunteers
as unnecessary. I'm not trying to single you out here, Barbara, but I'm
about to start my own pay-per-view website where parents can pay me $10.00
US dollars and use me as the projection board for any displaced anger they
have about volunteering in public schools.

Really, if you could see how much parent volunteers *do* help out in the
classroom, see how we enhance the experience for all the kids, I don't
think half of the anti-school volunteer posters would be ranting off in
the way they're doing.

And each school is different but I'm ready to read the post from a parent
which says: "Our local school was grossly underfunded, I volunteered once
a week to assist the teacher in the classroom, and it was all a waste of
time." Instead, I see more of "I've never volunteered at my child's
school on a consistent basis and volunteering is a waste of everyone's
time." If you don't want to volunteer in your child's school, please
don't. You don't need to rationalize to anyone why you don't want to
volunteer. But it's quite short-sighted to make a judgement call on how
effective school volunteers are in the classroom when you've not
extensively volunteered yourself.

Noreen

[Marion Baumgarten]

MarjiG > wrote:

> I personally think that the obligation to help public schools cannot be
> negated by other community volunteering one might or might not do, or by
> what job one holds or does not hold.
>
> Most schools do have plenty of options for those that want to help without
> actually being involved with the students.
>
> -Marjorie

Then how come their isn't criticism of two parent families where BOTH
parenst aren't actively volunteering? If one vounteer is good, then two
must be better?

Gee, you know I'm part of a meal rotation for a friend of mine who is
undergoing chemo for breast cancer after having a double masectomy. She
hwas a 2 year old and a 12 year old. I think I'll be sure to ask her
what volunteer work she's planning on doing this year. I mean, she has
those days off between chemo sessions. And if she can't do it, why I'm
sure her husband who is working fill time and looking after the two year
old when his wife is too exhausted has the time. I'm sure since she's on
unpaid leave from her job they must have some extra money they can use
to buy something from the school.


Marion Baumgarten

[Marion Baumgarten]

MarjiG > wrote:


>
> Time for my annual plug for "Spellabration" easy, cost effective,
> high-profit.
>
> Kids get pledges based on the number of points they will earn on a
> spelling test... All kids take the test, it is always 100 point. K-ers
> are tested on letters and their address, above that it is a true spelling
> test, in the lower grades multiple points per word, but by 5th it is a 100
> word test... Cost to the school - paper for pledge sheets, and tests, some
> prizes (many are donated by local businesses). Since it is pure donation,
> pledges can be matched with company gift matching programs.
>
> It seems to me that we tend to want things both ways, we want low taxes,
> but then we complain when the schools need more money than taxes provide.
> Naturally, I expect them to use their money wisely, but there is only so
> much that can do.
>
> -Marjorie

Actually, I don't want low taxes- I want my money used in the best way
possible. That's two different things. One of the things I LOVE about my
school district is there are no child fundraisers for the school. My
kids are not expected to hawk (or have their parentshawk) wrapping
paper, magazine subscriptions, candy etc. My son participated in a
Mathathon last year and the money went to St. Jude's research hospital.
My daughter's class had a bake sale and sold lollipops at afterschool
events and bought gifts for a family at at Christmas. Ant fundraising
that the kids do goes to OTHERS, not themselves. I think it's a
wonderful lesson.

Marion Baumgarten

[Marion Baumgarten]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:

> Marion Baumgarten > wrote:
>
> : Hmm...I guess paying your property taxes and making sure your kids come
> : ready school ready to learn isn't enough.
>
> Do you ever participate in school fundraisers, Marion? Do you go to
> parent-teacher meetings each quarter? Have you ever sat in on a PTA
> meeting? Have you ever participated in a school auction?

Noreen, I'm going to say I don't have to justify my activites to you. My
husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy we
spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
'Nuff said. (Althoyugh I'm wondering why my husband isn't asked to
justify his time)
>
> A bigger question: how are your kids doing in school? If they are doing
> well, then you probably have no need to sit in and watch (or hear
> secondhand) what's going on in the classroom.

My kids are doing just fine thank you. The difficulties they have had I
don't believe would have been mitigated in any way if I had been
watching them in the classroom. (BTW I have been in the past a classroom
volunteer- last year I did work in the school library- guess that was a
waste since I didn't see my kids)

Marion Baumgarten

[Marion Baumgarten]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:

>
> But I know firsthand (eyeroll) some working and at-home parents keep alive
> the WP vs. SAHP rivalry. I got past that one long ago. I can name at
> least three at-home parents who'd never step foot to help out in the
> classroom. By virtue of working out of the house for a living doesn't
> completely factor into the formula of school volunteerism. If it's not
> your bag, baby (Austin Powers accent), I'm not the one to tell you off
> about it.
>
> Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
> might judge you. ;-)
>
> Noreen

You know, I'm too busy with my own life to keep track of what other
pople are doing- just because I don't SEE someone volunteering at school
doesn't mean a thing.

Marion Baumgarten

[Marion Baumgarten]

Kevin Karplus > wrote:

>
>
> When I have managed to get information from him, it was often
> surprising. At one point last year, I found out that his least
> favorite part of school was recess. It turned out that there was some
> minor bullying going on among the 1st-grade boys. I informed the
> teacher privately (who already knew who was involved and promised to
> put a stop to it).

Yes- but unless you had been at the school at recess you would not have
found out about it even if you were volunteering. It's not a panecea.


Marion Bumgarten

[chiam margalit]

(Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> chiam margalit wrote:
> > (Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
> >> In article >,
> >> chiam margalit wrote:
> This sounds like dysfunctional organization and poor planning by the
> school.

Bingo!

Of course, almost all the field trips my son took were in
> walking distance of the school, or were by city bus, so no limitation
> was put on how many parents could attend. (The ones that weren't
> were in parent-driven cars, so a plea was sent out for enough
> volunteers to drive everyone.)
>
> > BTW, the difference between your examples and what my kids experienced
> > over the hill was that in our class we had 4 teachers for <20 kids.
> > They didn't NEED parents hanging out all the time. 1/2 of the class
> > was gone at any given time for Hebrew and religious training, so we
> > had 2 full time teachers for 10 kids. And the education still sucked!
>
> Even the private schools in Santa Cruz don't manage 5:1
> student-teacher ratios. With that high a ratio, I can see why the
> parent volunteers are superfluous and turn to socializing to while
> away the idle hours. I'm surprised though that such an apparently
> involved parent group would tolerate an education that "still sucked".

The funny thing is, 3rd grade was the make or break year for the
school. In November I pulled my son out to homeschool him, in March I
pulled my daughter out as well. One other kid left during the winter
holiday. But by the end of the year, out of the original 21 kids, only
11 returned to 4th grade. And one of those left mid 4th grade, and by
5th grade only 8 were left. Dysfunctional only begins to describe this
school. Which is why I am always clear that just because it's a
private school doesn't mean that it's a GOOD school. Private schools
can really stink, and you pay for the privilege. Through the nose, in
fact.

> Perhaps the school was set up more as a social club than as an
> educational institution---that is, sending kids there was intended as
> a marker of social status, not as a way to educate kids (that can be
> a danger with very pricey schools). Of course, if you are looking for
> religious education as well, then your choices may be limited.

People sent their kids there because it was an affiliated school.
Meaning that is belongs to a religious stream with a generally
excellent school system. However this school didn't follow the
curriculum, didn't hire good teachers, didn't deal with learning
differences (they fired the sped teacher than one parent was paying
for because she argued with the headmaster. Repeat, they fired a
teacher they weren't even paying for!), and they played a serious
shell game with the accredators, especially over the ERB scores, which
lead to a law suit. It was a huge mess.
>
> Every year I agonize over the public/private school decision, though
> so far the bilingual program at the public school has been enough of
> an incentive to keep us in the public school system. When the
> bilingual program ends after third grade, the decision will quite
> likely go the other way, as the public school has almost no program
> for gifted students (I believe the state allocates $10,000 for the
> gifted program for the whole school, which has about 600 students).
>
> Luckily, there is a private school near us that has an excellent
> reputation for academic excellence (I know several of the parents who
> have kids in the school), so if we have to bail out of public school,
> we have another option.

One of my daughter's classmates from the bad school moved to a private
school in SC that she is very happy with. I'm not sure which school it
is, but they've raved about it.

Marjorie

[Noreen Cooper]

Marion Baumgarten > wrote:

:> Do you ever participate in school fundraisers, Marion? Do you go to
:> parent-teacher meetings each quarter? Have you ever sat in on a PTA
:> meeting? Have you ever participated in a school auction?

: Noreen, I'm going to say I don't have to justify my activites to you. My
: husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy we
: spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
: how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
: 'Nuff said. (Althoyugh I'm wondering why my husband isn't asked to
: justify his time)

Marion, you are getting so hung up on the in-school volunteer factor that
you completely miss my point. I am not asking you to justify your actions
in anyway whatsoever. What is so guldurn difficult about these words:
"Whatever a parent does to help out the schools is just fine as long as
they do something?" Why does everyone want to turn that around to my
judging anyone who doesn't spend 50 hours a week helping out in the
classroom as a Bad Parent. I am not the mascot for Everyone Needs to Be
in the Classroom. Pulleezze don't put me in that box.

Noreen

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>Robyn Kozierok > wrote:
>
>: Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>:>
>:>Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
>:>might judge you. ;-)
>
>: Surely it does not take much imagination to come up with scenarios
>: in which a person's resources (time, energy, money, etc.) are best
>: spent on things other than helping out their local schools.
>
>No, I think it's incredibly easy for anyone who has a child in public
>school to do something. That something doesn't need involve volunteering
>onsite five days a week. Banty said she did nothing for her son's school
>and then said she donated his old children's books. Sorry, but that is
>doing *something* for a local school.

Apparently your imagination is not as creative as I thought. I can
think of lots of situations where a person with a child in public school
does not have time/money/energy left over after meeting (or not) their
own family's needs. Perhaps if you drop the presumption of affluence
it would be easier. There are children in our public schools who probably
don't have any books at home at all, let alone old ones they can afford
to donate rather than resell. Here are a couple scenarios to get you
started:

Family living in severe poverty. Both parents working multiple jobs
just to put food on the table and a roof over their heads, still some
days the only meal the kids get is the free lunch at school. Parents
already have too little time to spend with the kids.

Dad hospitalized with cancer, mom doing whatever she can to make up the
difference between Dad's prior salary and the 60% he gets on disability
leave without getting their house foreclosed. Time and energy are
spend on visiting Dad and all the pragmatic details of having a family
member hospitalized. Mom's expecting another child next month.

Single father with limited income and limited time for his kids, still
chooses to spend time volunteering, but rather than help in the public
schools, volunteers in an area in the community where his specialized
skills are required, and where volunteers are more direly needed.

So, maybe it's my imagination that's lacking, but I don't see any
"incredibly easy" way for these hypothetical families to contribute
to their schools, without sacrificing something more important either
personally or for the community.

Often, one doesn't know all of the details of a family's situation. So
before judging them for not contributing to the schools, think about
what other things might be going on in their lives to make that
impractical or unwise.


--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Robyn Kozierok]

I think one reason why parents aren't needed as much in middle school
(and high school) is that (at least in the schools I'm familiar with)
there are multiple versions of many classes (i.e. standard, honors and
remedial) and *because* kids move between classes individually, it is
possible for a child to be in a different grade class for a single
subject if necessary. All this means that the classes that are taught
are at least a little more homogeneous and meeting everyone's needs at
once isn't quite as challenging.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Elisabeth Riba]

Robyn Kozierok > wrote:
> >The resource teachers are mandated by law for special needs students.
> >The school cannot eliminate them.

> When I was a kid, they were also available to help the above-average
> students who needed higher-level or faster instruction. This is
> rarely the case today.

And, I will point out that an IQ of 130 is just as far from "normal" as an
IQ of 70.

--
------> Elisabeth Riba * http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/ <------
"[She] is one of the secret masters of the world: a librarian.
They control information. Don't ever **** one off."
- Spider Robinson, "Callahan Touch"

[Circe]

"Noreen Cooper" > wrote in message
...
> Circe > wrote:
> : Any number of government agencies are strapped for cash. Nonetheless, no
one
> : seems to be suggesting that private citizens volunteer to take up a
police
> : beat in order to ensure they have adequate police protection or put in a
few
> : hours helping people register their cars and get driver licenses at the
DMV
> : to reduce long lines and improve service for everyone. I am not
completely
> : sure why parents are expected to fall over themselves volunteering to
help
> : their kids' schools do what they are instituted and funded to do.
>
> It takes a little more training to be a police officer than a parent
> volunteer in an elementary school, and especially in the early grades
> when many children can't even read, some don't even know their colors,
> and at my son's school, around a quarter can't even speak English.
>
Well, it takes far more discipline and patience than I've got. The one day I
sat in on my son's class, it was all I could do to keep from either falling
asleep or biting some poor kid's head off because he/she didn't understand
simple directions.

I'm very well educated. I am *great* at teaching advanced subject matter to
adults. I *suck* at teaching basic skills to children. Trust me, you'd
rather not have me trying to teach *your* kids.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Under loves spell" -- Disney Princess shirt slogan

[Rosalie B.]

Elisabeth Riba > wrote:

>Robyn Kozierok > wrote:
>> >The resource teachers are mandated by law for special needs students.
>> >The school cannot eliminate them.
>
>> When I was a kid, they were also available to help the above-average
>> students who needed higher-level or faster instruction. This is
>> rarely the case today.
>
>And, I will point out that an IQ of 130 is just as far from "normal" as an
>IQ of 70.

I don't know that I had ever seen resource teachers for the upper end
of the spectrum when I was in school although we were, to a certain
extent 'tracked' (talking about K-6). So from my perspective, this
kind of help is fairly recent. It wasn't until my children were in
school that there were G&T classes.

In addition, when my kids were in school (and they are now 42-32 years
old) there was also the option at least for math of being pulled out
for a higher level class. So someone in 7th grade might be taking Alg
I in 8th grade and in 8th grade they would go over to the adjacent HS
to take Geometry or whatever. And it was becoming increasingly
common for the kids to take college classes for part of the day.

I also found that there was a great dichotomy in how the sped classes
were administered. It was different in elementary school than it was
in middle school. Often we would get kids in 6th grade that had been
taken off sped and sent to us with no services. If they needed help,
we had to go through the whole process again. (One of the things I
typically did at the beginning of the school year was go through the
records and see whether anything like this had happened.)

In middle school, the kids were graded on whether they were achieving
up to their potential. So a kid with an IQ of 70 [not sure of the
actual numbers here] that was reading on 3rd or 4rd grade level was
doing fine or better than expected and not eligible for services -
they were main streamed. They couldn't get services unless they were
more than 3 full grades below grade level. I'm not sure what the HS
requirements were but they were graded differently in HS so I'm sure
their sped requirements were different too.

grandma Rosalie

[Elisabeth Riba]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:
> Rather than have the teacher spend two weeks on identifying
> colors for the entire class, the teacher sends over the remedial students
> to a parent volunteer to teach them their colors while the rest of the
> class is on to more advanced subjects.

<sarcasm>So, the students who need the most help get it from the least
qualified?</sarcasm>

--
------> Elisabeth Riba * http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/ <------
"[She] is one of the secret masters of the world: a librarian.
They control information. Don't ever **** one off."
- Spider Robinson, "Callahan Touch"

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
Noreen Cooper > wrote:

>Marion Baumgarten > wrote:
>
>:> Do you ever participate in school fundraisers, Marion? Do you go to
>:> parent-teacher meetings each quarter? Have you ever sat in on a PTA
>:> meeting? Have you ever participated in a school auction?
>
>: Noreen, I'm going to say I don't have to justify my activites to you. My
>: husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy we
>: spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
>: how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
>: 'Nuff said. (Althoyugh I'm wondering why my husband isn't asked to
>: justify his time)
>
>Marion, you are getting so hung up on the in-school volunteer factor that
>you completely miss my point. I am not asking you to justify your actions
>in anyway whatsoever. What is so guldurn difficult about these words:
>"Whatever a parent does to help out the schools is just fine as long as
>they do something?"

Because I don't agree that a parent has to do something to help the
schools.

So your complaint that you aren't judging parents who don't spend a
lot of time at the schools is begging the question. You (and maybe
David) DO judge parents who don't help the schools. And I (and
probably Marion and Banty too) do NOT agree that a parent has to do
"something".

The point is not that you are not judging a parent that does
'something' when you are bending over backward to make the something
as minor as possible. The point is

a) It should not be necessary for someone to help the schools - If you
help, it should be voluntary because you want to and not a required
voluntary commitment because that's what makes a good parent and
because the schools need extra bodies.

b) It isn't up to you or anyone else to judge how a parent or other
person spends their resources of time, money and thought. And just
the fact that you have SAID that you would judge a person who doesn't
do anything for the schools is an idea that is abhorrent to me.

c) There are better uses of some parent's time energy and thought
than volunteering in the schools.

>Why does everyone want to turn that around to my
>judging anyone who doesn't spend 50 hours a week helping out in the
>classroom as a Bad Parent. I am not the mascot for Everyone Needs to Be
>in the Classroom. Pulleezze don't put me in that box.

You've put yourself in the box. It's just an reduction ad absurdum of
your original argument. Someone who doesn't do at least a little is
what you would judge to be a bad parent.

grandma Rosalie

[Noreen Cooper]

Circe > wrote:

: Well, it takes far more discipline and patience than I've got. The one day I
: sat in on my son's class, it was all I could do to keep from either falling
: asleep or biting some poor kid's head off because he/she didn't understand
: simple directions.

Sure, I understand. There were days I would come home with a massive
headache. Not everyone is cut out for this kind of work.

: I'm very well educated. I am *great* at teaching advanced subject matter to
: adults. I *suck* at teaching basic skills to children. Trust me, you'd
: rather not have me trying to teach *your* kids.

And I have always agreed. Not everyone is cut out for this kind of school
volunteering. But parents can become involved in a number of ways;
in-school volunteering is only one way to help out.

Noreen

[MarjiG]

In article >, "Rosalie B."
> writes:

>
>You've put yourself in the box. It's just an reduction ad absurdum of
>your original argument. Someone who doesn't do at least a little is
>what you would judge to be a bad parent.

I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools is
being a bad citizen.

There. That's my judgement. Does that mean I want a report of who is doing
what, or why they should get a pass? No. But if my holding that opinion is
judging them so be it.
-Marjorie

[Noreen Cooper]

Rosalie B. > wrote:
: x-no-archive:yes

: You've put yourself in the box. It's just an reduction ad absurdum of
: your original argument. Someone who doesn't do at least a little is
: what you would judge to be a bad parent.

Okay, guilty. Judgemental I'll be. I do believe parents who have
children in an ailing public school system are *obligated* to help out in
some way, no matter how small. And when they don't, and there's no good
reason why they shouldn't (such as illness or abject poverty), then I will
judge them indeed.

Last time I checked, not one person has ever died from my judging them. <eg>

So we agree on something, finally.

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

Elisabeth Riba > wrote:

: Noreen Cooper > wrote:
:> Rather than have the teacher spend two weeks on identifying
:> colors for the entire class, the teacher sends over the remedial students
:> to a parent volunteer to teach them their colors while the rest of the
:> class is on to more advanced subjects.

: <sarcasm>So, the students who need the most help get it from the least
: qualified?</sarcasm>

In this particular situation, yes. Now what would *you* have suggested be
done if three-quarters of the class know their colors while the rest
don't? With second-language speakers, it's not as simple as flashing red,
flashing blue, and moving on. You need to repeat the color lesson for at
least two weeks and still some won't quite have it by then. So in your
perfect class, you'd decide to subject the majority to daily color lessons
for two weeks? Or would it make more sense to assign such a simple task
to a parent volunteer (last time I looked into the matter, it doesn't take
a Ph.D. to hold up a red circle and say, "Red!")?


I find the position of bashing parent school volunteers so absurd, it's
raising my blood pressure (which actually is good since I usually run too
low ;-). Do you not understand that those of us who choose to be in the
class are helping out *all* the kids, not our own, when we're off in the
corner flashing "Red" to second language speakers?

Nan and Grandma Rosalie asked how now is different from then. The
biggest difference is educational preschool and that some kids will go
into kindergarten knowing how to read while others don't know the
difference between red and blue. How are you going to begin to
accommodate these vast differences in one classroom with one teacher (we
do not have paid aides -- it's one teacher and that's it)?

Some other person said (sorry for lack of attribution) that really the
private schools are the ones that need parent volunteers the most.
****haw! Our local private school requires two separate tests before a
student is admitted, no matter how deep your momma or pappa's pockets go.
One test requires the child not only to be able to know all the letters of
the alphabet, but also be able to write them. Not many ESL or special
needs kids can get past that one, can they? By nature of their
homogenization, private schools are far easier for one teacher to manage.
However, our local private school *requires* heavy parent involvement, has
at least one paid aide in each class, so the ratio between students and
teacher/helpers is usually 1 to 4 most of the times. That's why students
on average get a better education in private schools. It has nothing to
do with the quality of instruction. Some of the most talented teachers
choose to stay in public schools. But it has everything to do with the
homogenization principle.

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

Mary Gordon > wrote:

: The unfortunate part is that as a bunch, the Moms do discourage the
: rest of us from involvement since they are pretty snotty to outsiders
: (i.e. anyone who isn't at the school 80% of the time and hanging out
: with them at the local Starbucks the other 20% of the time).

I have to admit, this is the only personally useful piece of information
I'm going to take away from this debate. I will make a better attempt at
making the occasional working parent who shows up in the classroom feel
more welcome. It's not really a snub, just that I know the other regular
volunteers better, even though I wouldn't say we're friends or that I
regard school volunteering as a social club. But I can see how it might
be perceived as such by the occasional volunteer.

This is why mailing lists will never do it for me. I really enjoy the
diversity of Usenet and how the anonymity of the media allows us to
communicate in ways which are more difficult in RL. You are less likely
to find this diversity of opinion on mailing lists.

Thanks, Mary, for pointing this behavior out to me.

Noreen

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>You are less likely
>to find this diversity of opinion on mailing lists.

Oh, I disagree with that! :-)

--Helen

[Iowacookiemom]

wrote:

>I find the position of bashing parent school volunteers so absurd, it's
>raising my blood pressure (which actually is good since I usually run too
>low ;-).

At the risk of lowering it back down, I don't think I've seen many (if any)
folks specifically "bashing" based on volunteering alone. I think the behavior
being "bashed" is the judging of other folks based on how much they choose to
volunteer (and, to a lesser extent, the cliques that form among regular
volunteers that feel alienating to those of us who only are able to come in
occasionally).

>
>Some other person said (sorry for lack of attribution) that really the
>private schools are the ones that need parent volunteers the most.
>****haw! Our local private school requires two separate tests before a
>student is admitted, no matter how deep your momma or pappa's pockets go.

OK, but that's a sample of one. Many private schools are as strapped -- or
more strapped -- for dollars as publics. They tend to be mission-driven
private schools, often faith based. I think you'd have to do a little more
research before you could generalize based on this one data point.

My sister is a public school teacher. Her best friend has been a teacher in a
well-respected private school for years. My sis routinely has more help and
more resources than her friend. It's not as simple as private=rich and
public=poor.

>One test requires the child not only to be able to know all the letters of
>the alphabet, but also be able to write them. Not many ESL or special
>needs kids can get past that one, can they?

What a shame. If that's accurate, then the kids who go to that school will be
robbed of the experience of knowing about different cultures by folks who are
growing up within those cultures. Not to mention the experience of knowing that
the whole world is not made up of people who are about equally talented
academically and the concurrent lesson that some of the kids who can't do as
well as you can on a spelling test are waaaay better than you at something
else. And imo that is a *big* part of education in this new century.

>By nature of their
>homogenization, private schools are far easier for one teacher to manage.
>However, our local private school *requires* heavy parent involvement, has
>at least one paid aide in each class, so the ratio between students and
>teacher/helpers is usually 1 to 4 most of the times. That's why students
>on average get a better education in private schools.

Oh, my. I take extreme exception to that statement. Perhaps students in some
private schools like the one you describe can progress more quickly and do
better on things like standardized tests. But a better *education*? I will
never accept that. I define "education" way too broadly to think that anyone
could get a good overall education in an environment where everyone is just
like them academically, socio-economically and racially.

>It has nothing to
>do with the quality of instruction. Some of the most talented teachers
>choose to stay in public schools. But it has everything to do with the
>homogenization principle.

"Everything"? Really?

I think part of what's drawing out so much frustration in this thread is that
kind of broad-based, sweeping generalization posed as absolute fact. And then
argued about ad infinitum as "I didn't mean that, I meant this..." Perhaps if
we all took greater care in the beginning as we make the statements, we might
misunderstand one another less.

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[MarjiG]

In article >, Noreen Cooper
> writes:

>
>And I have always agreed. Not everyone is cut out for this kind of school
>volunteering. But parents can become involved in a number of ways;
>in-school volunteering is only one way to help out.
>

And not all in-school volunteering involves working with the children. (Or
grading their papers.) There are worksheets to duplicate, bulletin boards to
decorate, little paper Santas to cut out (just to tie in the usual arguement
with this one).

-Marjorie

[Leah Adezio]

"MarjiG" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Rosalie B."
> > writes:
>
> >
> >You've put yourself in the box. It's just an reduction ad absurdum of
> >your original argument. Someone who doesn't do at least a little is
> >what you would judge to be a bad parent.
>
> I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools
is
> being a bad citizen.

I pay my taxes. I pay my $5.00 per year to the Middle School Association.
And right now, that's it. That's all I can *handle* right now. I'm out of
the house at 7:30 each morning. I'm lucky if I get home from work by 6:30
each night. If I have to run errands or go grocery shopping, sometimes I
don't get home until 10 pm.

So, screw it. I guess I'm a 'bad citizen' because I don't (actually,
*can't*) volunteer in my son's schools now. I did when they were younger.

I'm sure I'm not the only single parent in this boat, either. I'm sure
there are working couples who struggle just to get food on the table who
can't afford to take time off from work to volunteer -- it would be great if
my work hours didn't coincide (like most working parents) with school hours,
but they do.

You want to judge me and other parents like me? Fine.

Everyone's situation is not like yours....and I refuse to be put in the 'bad
parent/citizen' box because I simply don't have the time to give (and the
district we're now in is huge enough that they don't seem to need the things
I could do in what little time I could spare in the evenings or on
weekends -- like design programs for concerts, events....things I used to do
besides being a Class Mom and working on the PTO (which again, I did when
the boys were younger).

Leah
more than a little annoyed

>
> There. That's my judgement. Does that mean I want a report of who is
doing
> what, or why they should get a pass? No. But if my holding that opinion
is
> judging them so be it.
> -Marjorie
>

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes
(MarjiG) wrote:

>In article >, "Rosalie B."
> writes:
>
>>
>>You've put yourself in the box. It's just an reduction ad absurdum of
>>your original argument. Someone who doesn't do at least a little is
>>what you would judge to be a bad parent.
>
>I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools is
>being a bad citizen.
>
>There. That's my judgement. Does that mean I want a report of who is doing
>what, or why they should get a pass? No. But if my holding that opinion is
>judging them so be it.
>-Marjorie

It's OK with me for you to say that - I said something similar - I
said that if parents should help the schools, then all citizens
should. And I do think that al citizens should be interested in
having good schools and should help in whatever ways they can.

What I am against is limiting the people that HAVE to help just to
parents.

grandma Rosalie

[chiam margalit]

(Colleen Porter) wrote in message >...
> (chiam margalit) wrote in message >...
>
> > I'm sure you experience this as well, although probably not with such
> > concentrated doses because, IIRC, your son attends a public school.
>
> I think this really might be a private-school thing. I've never seen
> this phenomenon in 23 years of having kids in public school in three
> different districts. If these families are well-to-do enough that
> they can afford for one parent to spend their time that way, do you
> suppose they also make substantial financial contributions to the
> school, and that is part of why they get field-trip privileges?

When my kids were at the private school, parents were required to put
in 25 hours of volunteer work per year. If they didn't, they were
charged $75. per hour. Because of this rule, I worked on the big
fundraiser, making phone calls begging for donations from the school's
parents. I know who paid what, and no, most did NOT make much of a
financial contribution. There was one family, the dynasty, that did
make huge financial contributions, but as a rule, the families with
the moms who were professional 'volunteers' donated much less than I
did, and I'm no big donor by any stretch of the imagination! So, it
wasn't big money that was earning these people privileges, it was the
fact that they were there physically every day all day, except for
their runs to Starbucks and the gym, both practically around the
corner.
>
> Our field trip chaperones were generally chosen by a lottery.

Due to the tiny class size and the number of teachers, our chaperones
were always the same set of parents. The teachers would send home
forms asking for volunteers to drive to X fieldtrip, and I'd dutifully
fill them out, but only once got chosen. The same parents got to go on
all the trips.
>
> I am also seeing some regional difference in the discussions here. I
> live in Florida, and schools have always been underfunded because the
> senior citizens who retire here will not vote for decent school
> funding (since their grandchildren are back in Ohio or Vermont). In
> such a situation, volunteers play a crucial role in the quality of our
> children's education. They direct school plays, provide music
> instruction, work in the school library, direct the yearbook, and
> serve as school nurses (although our district did write a grant that
> finally provided professional nurses three years ago).

Well, I'm in California, and I think the entire WORLD knows how
horrible the economy is in CA, and how pathetically the schools are
funded. We don't care about schools, libraries, or social services. We
DO care about face lifts, movies, and movie star candidates for
governor. We're shallow and we're proud! We do have volunteers but
no, they are NOT crucial to a child's education, IMO.

What I think is remarkable is that I was born in the absolute peak of
the baby boom. There were 38 kids in my 1at grade class in elementary
school. The school photos are absolutely scary. We had one teacher
with all those kids, and there were *never* parent volunteers in the
classroom. I think parents trusted the schools more back then. I also
believe that parents felt that it was the school's job to educate
their kids to the best of their ability. And, because so many of our
parents were first generation Americans, they also believe that ANY
free education was good education. They didn't mistrust the schools
like parents do now. They accepted that not every kid was going to get
a perfect education, but by and large most kids would come away
educated enough to get a job and be a productive member of society.

That's just not true anymore. Parents today strongly believe that
every child is entitled (and I use that word strongly here) to the
*perfect* education for his or her learning style. Parents feel
entitled to demand more special services for learning differences
(color me guilty of this), and they also feel entitled to enter into,
and in some cases interfere with the teaching in the classroom.

As a former teacher, I'm seeing both sides of this issue, and it is a
problem. We had tracking back when I was in school, something that
doesn't exist until Middle School nowadays. I feel that's a terrible
error in our educational system. Tracking works for kids at every
spectrum, but it IS elitist. No doubt about it. We also have SPED,
something that didn't exist in the 50's, and that's a good thing. But
what bothers me about the professional classroom volunteers, the
people who spend every day in the classroom or hanging round outside
it, is that those people feel that they *know* what is right for their
children and perhaps other children in the classroom, and often they
do not. I think every one of us has seen parents who are clueless
about their kids abilities and disadvantages. If they don't know their
own kids, do you really want them helping to educate your kids? I sure
don't.

I don't take issue with people who volunteer their expertise in the
classroom, like a NASA scientist parent who does a unit on space
exploration. That's appropriate and should be incorporated into our
curriculum. But I do take issue with people who are often uneducated
or barely educated who have the time to volunteer and end up helping
out to teach math in programs like MPM, or assist with science units
and don't know the difference between biology and zoology. I'd rather
experts in their fields teach small units on what they know best, and
leave the rest of the education to the professionals. That would mean
that I'd volunteer anyday to teach writing and language arts,
something I teach at the college level, but there is no way on God's
green earth I should EVER be allowed to teach any math. I know and
accept my shortcomings, but I don't believe that every school
volunteer does the same.

I also believe that some people have the temprament to teach and other
people do not. As volunteers, schools aren't able to pick and choose
amongst those who really are born teachers and those who are poison to
children. That bothers me a lot as well, especially since we had
personal experience with a volunteer who was toxic to my daughter and
who I could not get out of the classroom.

Marjorie

[Rosalie B.]

(Iowacookiemom) wrote:

wrote:
>
>>I find the position of bashing parent school volunteers so absurd, it's
>>raising my blood pressure (which actually is good since I usually run too
>>low ;-).
>
>At the risk of lowering it back down, I don't think I've seen many (if any)
>folks specifically "bashing" based on volunteering alone. I think the behavior
>being "bashed" is the judging of other folks based on how much they choose to
>volunteer (and, to a lesser extent, the cliques that form among regular
>volunteers that feel alienating to those of us who only are able to come in
>occasionally).

Right
>
>>
>>Some other person said (sorry for lack of attribution) that really the
>>private schools are the ones that need parent volunteers the most.
>>****haw! Our local private school requires two separate tests before a
>>student is admitted, no matter how deep your momma or pappa's pockets go.

That was me. And you've just negated your own argument, unless the
tuition is based on ability to pay. That is - if students who get
into the school whose parents are rich have to pay more than students
whose parents are only moderately well off, and if the school gives no
scholarships for the have-nots, then you would be justified in saying
that they don't need money because they can afford to pay people.
Otherwise, the two tests are just weaning out the less academically
able students and have nothing to do with how much money they have
available.

My SIL was a private school teacher and I live across the street from
the Catholic HS where he taught, so I've gotten to know some of the
folks over there. My husband and I were public school teachers.

Private schools have the option NOT to admit children that are
behavior problems. We often got kids into the public school mid year
who had started out at the local Catholic school and they couldn't
deal with either the child or the parent.

(And as above, they can test out the sped kids so they don't have to
deal with slow learners or those with academic problems).

That's the only real advantage that I can see to teaching in a private
school. And I'm sure that there is a lot of pressure on the teachers
not to make waves because the school wants the tuition unless the
school is in the enviable position of having way more people wanting
their children to go there than there are slots. And a lot of them
are not in that position.

Private schools (at least the ones that I'm familiar with) do not have
paid sick leave for the teachers. If a teacher that is sick enough to
not come in, their colleagues have to cover their classes. They also
do not have all the extra classes like band that are normal at public
high schools. Those are the primary reason why I wouldn't have wanted
to teach across the street (would have been very convenient) or have
my children go there because as much trouble as lesson plans for a
substitute are, if I was sick (or in two cases when I had to have an
operation) I'd want to be able to take off, be paid and continue my
health insurance.

Pay is a bit higher in public schools, we have pension plans, and
health insurance. Since a lot of private schools were originally
staffed by 'religious' persons (i.e. priests and nuns) those schools
didn't have to worry much about salaries and benefits. Now that there
are lay people filling a lot of the slots, some of those schools are
strapped. Plus if you think fund raising in the public schools is bad
- check on the private schools.

>
>OK, but that's a sample of one. Many private schools are as strapped -- or
>more strapped -- for dollars as publics. They tend to be mission-driven
>private schools, often faith based. I think you'd have to do a little more
>research before you could generalize based on this one data point.
>
>My sister is a public school teacher. Her best friend has been a teacher in a
>well-respected private school for years. My sis routinely has more help and
>more resources than her friend. It's not as simple as private=rich and
>public=poor.
>
<snip>
>>By nature of their
>>homogenization, private schools are far easier for one teacher to manage.
>>However, our local private school *requires* heavy parent involvement, has
>>at least one paid aide in each class, so the ratio between students and
>>teacher/helpers is usually 1 to 4 most of the times. That's why students
>>on average get a better education in private schools.
>
My dad came from Colorado and believed that since he was paying for
public school in his taxes, that we should go there. We were in a
city (Baltimore) which is heavily Catholic, and in which almost all
middle and upper middle class or professional families took for
granted that their children would go to private school. If they
weren't Catholic, they sent them to Friends School (in our area). We
were almost the only children from my parent's circle of friends in
public school.

I do not think I got an inferior education to my friends who were in
private school.

I sent my children to private schools only one case, and that was when
we moved to Florida where the public schools had no kindergarten. I
felt kindergarten was important, so I put my children in private
school so that they would have that. I didn't think the school was
much superior to the public schools - just that they offered something
that the public schools did not. After we moved out of Florida, they
went to public schools.

The only problem I have had with the public schools here is that this
is a very small rural county, and there were not as many advanced
classes as people who lived in Princeton NJ (where my sister lives) or
Alexandria or someplace like that had. I encouraged my children to
major in some type of math or science because I did not feel that we
were as far behind in those areas as we were in the social
science/language areas. And that was their leaning anyway.

Two of my children have had their children in private schools. One of
my children lives in Miami, and she decided that Florida public
schools were not what she wanted for her kids. She has friends with
kids the age of hers in public schools so she can compare what is
going on in her school and her friends kids school. (She says that
there is a lot of 'teaching to the test' in some grades of public
school.)

Another daughter felt that her son was getting left behind when he
started in middle school because he wasn't getting the material, but
he wasn't a behavior problem and the teachers were too busy putting
out fires to notice. So she put him and his sister in a parochial
school. She also had his little brother in private parochial school
(I think it was St. Edmunds) while they were living in England for
three years, but now that they are back in the states, he's going to
public school.

These are the kind of decisions parents make, and they are based on
the local schools and their children and their goals for their
children. There is too much variability in all those things to be
able to say that either private or public schools will result in a
better education.

>Oh, my. I take extreme exception to that statement. Perhaps students in some
>private schools like the one you describe can progress more quickly and do
>better on things like standardized tests. But a better *education*? I will
>never accept that. I define "education" way too broadly to think that anyone
>could get a good overall education in an environment where everyone is just
>like them academically, socio-economically and racially.
>
>>It has nothing to
>>do with the quality of instruction. Some of the most talented teachers
>>choose to stay in public schools. But it has everything to do with the
>>homogenization principle.
>
>"Everything"? Really?
>
>I think part of what's drawing out so much frustration in this thread is that
>kind of broad-based, sweeping generalization posed as absolute fact. And then
>argued about ad infinitum as "I didn't mean that, I meant this..." Perhaps if
>we all took greater care in the beginning as we make the statements, we might
>misunderstand one another less.
>
>-Dawn
>Mom to Henry, 10

grandma Rosalie

[Noreen Cooper]

Leah Adezio > wrote:

: So, screw it. I guess I'm a 'bad citizen' because I don't (actually,
: *can't*) volunteer in my son's schools now. I did when they were younger.

: I'm sure I'm not the only single parent in this boat, either. I'm sure
: there are working couples who struggle just to get food on the table who
: can't afford to take time off from work to volunteer -- it would be great if
: my work hours didn't coincide (like most working parents) with school hours,
: but they do.

: You want to judge me and other parents like me? Fine.

Leah, you had a recent loss in your family and I would consider you exempt
from my judgement as someone who needs to give something to the schools
this year. However, I'm sounding like a broken record, but there's got to
be some complex psychological phenomenon going on when the pro-school
posters say "do something, no matter how little" and that's interpreted
defensively as "if you're not taking time off work to be in the classroom
every week, you're a bad parent."

Is there any moderate WP out there who can possibly explain to me why
these huge leaps of interpretation continue contra to everyone stating
time and time again that helping out need not be defined? Is it out of
guilt for not doing enough? Constant harassment by school officials? I
am completely perplexed, and I mean it.

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

Rosalie B. > wrote:

:>>Some other person said (sorry for lack of attribution) that really the
:>>private schools are the ones that need parent volunteers the most.
:>>****haw! Our local private school requires two separate tests before a
:>>student is admitted, no matter how deep your momma or pappa's pockets go.

: That was me. And you've just negated your own argument, unless the
: tuition is based on ability to pay. That is - if students who get
: into the school whose parents are rich have to pay more than students
: whose parents are only moderately well off, and if the school gives no
: scholarships for the have-nots, then you would be justified in saying
: that they don't need money because they can afford to pay people.
: Otherwise, the two tests are just weaning out the less academically
: able students and have nothing to do with how much money they have
: available.

Sure, all private schools are different but we have only two private
schools where we live since we're situated in an unincorporated part of
the county. The best local private school currently is the one where
students are pre-selected on above-average academic skill, the ability for
parents to volunteer and participate in the classroom (nannies are allowed
to substitute for a parent), and enough money to meet tuition and many
required fundraising campaigns throughout the year. So the theme is "Best
and Brightest" which isn't something I wanted to involve my son in.

However, the local private school can offer a better academic program by
virtue of their pre-selection process. I simply prefer a more diverse
environment.

: Private schools have the option NOT to admit children that are
: behavior problems. We often got kids into the public school mid year
: who had started out at the local Catholic school and they couldn't
: deal with either the child or the parent.

Right. That goes for our local private school, too. Disciplining
problem students can take up a significant part of a teacher's day,
depending on the student.

: That's the only real advantage that I can see to teaching in a private
: school. And I'm sure that there is a lot of pressure on the teachers
: not to make waves because the school wants the tuition unless the
: school is in the enviable position of having way more people wanting
: their children to go there than there are slots. And a lot of them
: are not in that position.

Our local private school has a long waiting list. Some parents hire
tutors for their 3yo's to prepare them for the entrance exam.

: I do not think I got an inferior education to my friends who were in
: private school.

: These are the kind of decisions parents make, and they are based on
: the local schools and their children and their goals for their
: children. There is too much variability in all those things to be
: able to say that either private or public schools will result in a
: better education.

I agree. People put their kids into private schools for many reasons.
Some parents, for self-serving reasons, even choose to send their kids to
private schools as a way of networking with other parents who have big
donor potential.

Noreen

[Marion Baumgarten]

> MarjiG > wrote:
>
> : I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools is
> : being a bad citizen.

Boy, I'm glad my kids' Sunday school teachers, youth group leaders,
scout leaders and coaches don't know this. I mean, if they are busy
doing these things, then they are not doing what they CAN to help public
schools, hence they are bad citizens.

You want to be the one to tell them?


Marion Baumgarten

[Noreen Cooper]

Ann Porter > wrote:
: "Noreen Cooper" > wrote in message
: ...

:> I feel a bit sorry for the OP. Seems like a serious question has been
:> drowned out by many sideline conversations. I hope she posts an update
:> and that she has gotten enough information to help her in deciding what to
:> do.

: Community, Noreen. Community.

I don't believe you really understand the meaning of community, Ann,
especially since you've once said publicly you don't feel community is
something that can happen on Usenet (oh, but you were just joking, right).
If you want to experience the kind of community I envision, come visit the
test group misc.kids.family-life.

I'm not sure I'd describe the conversation here as "community." Not that
it hasn't been interesting and useful, but community can also mean
"supportive" and I still feel we (and I include myself in this, too)
weren't as supportive as we could have been to the OP by hijacking the
thread *immediately* off into a tangent without taking the time to
acknowledge her concerns.

Noreen

[Andrew Gideon]

David desJardins wrote:

> But, if that really does
> worry you, all you have to do is point out the incorrect markings and
> get the grade corrected.

Maybe. But one of the incidents that's stuck with me over the years, and is
a part of why I'm still so untrusting of educators, is a 7th grade science
teacher that refused to acknowledge that "plasma" existed even after I
brought her the encyclopedia.

No, that didn't impact college. But it was a part of a series of events
which left me hating school. I certainly would prefer to not see my son
impacted similarly.

- Andrew

[David desJardins]

Andrew Gideon writes:
> Maybe. But one of the incidents that's stuck with me over the years,
> and is a part of why I'm still so untrusting of educators, is a 7th
> grade science teacher that refused to acknowledge that "plasma"
> existed even after I brought her the encyclopedia.
>
> No, that didn't impact college. But it was a part of a series of
> events which left me hating school. I certainly would prefer to not
> see my son impacted similarly.

Well, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with classroom volunteers
(or teachers) grading quickly and perhaps making the occasional error,
which I still think is not a big deal.

I certainly agree that there are all sorts of things that teachers can
do wrong, at a much more fundamental level than whether they mark papers
correctly. (I can tell similar stories, although certainly they didn't
make me "hate" school! If anything, they left me overconfident in my
own abilities.) But that's a significant part of why I would "expect"
parents to want to be involved at school---so they know what is going on
there. I don't know how your parents handled the incident you describe,
but I have a pretty good idea of the things I would try to do, as a
parent. But I can't do anything if I'm out of the loop.

David desJardins

[Noreen Cooper]

chiam margalit > wrote:

: Due to the tiny class size and the number of teachers, our chaperones
: were always the same set of parents. The teachers would send home
: forms asking for volunteers to drive to X fieldtrip, and I'd dutifully
: fill them out, but only once got chosen. The same parents got to go on
: all the trips.

In our school, whoever wants to drive had kids in their cars, even if
there were too many parent volunteers that we ended up with only two kids
to transport in each car. The bigger problem in our district is finding
enough drivers since most children come from two working parents who can't
get off work to drive on field trips.

: Well, I'm in California, and I think the entire WORLD knows how
: horrible the economy is in CA, and how pathetically the schools are
: funded. We don't care about schools, libraries, or social services. We
: DO care about face lifts, movies, and movie star candidates for
: governor. We're shallow and we're proud! We do have volunteers but
: no, they are NOT crucial to a child's education, IMO.

Certainly, that's not how all Californians think, but it's been a long
time since we had a governor who gave 2cents about education even though
every one of them campaign for education reform during election time.

: what bothers me about the professional classroom volunteers, the
: people who spend every day in the classroom or hanging round outside
: it, is that those people feel that they *know* what is right for their
: children and perhaps other children in the classroom, and often they
: do not.

So you're saying that *you* don't know what is right for your child,
Marjorie? That a principal or teacher *always* knows more of what your
child needs than you do? If you believe you know what's best for your
child/ren, than how can you make the statement that a classroom volunteer
doesn't? Especially a parent on-site at least once a week to witness
first-hand classroom dynamics.

: I don't take issue with people who volunteer their expertise in the
: classroom, like a NASA scientist parent who does a unit on space
: exploration. That's appropriate and should be incorporated into our
: curriculum. But I do take issue with people who are often uneducated
: or barely educated who have the time to volunteer and end up helping
: out to teach math in programs like MPM, or assist with science units
: and don't know the difference between biology and zoology.

This would apply more to the upper grades, IMO. Bringing in a NASA
scientist to speak to 2nd graders may appeal to the gifted few but I doubt
it'd be as significant of a learning experience for kids struggling with 1
plus 2.

Most regular school volunteers at our school hold at least an
undergraduate degree and I have a Master's. You do not need to be a
subject specialist to teach 2nd grade math. Specialists work well with
the gifted at this age but the vast majority haven't even started to
memorize their multiplication tables.

Most of the time, classroom volunteers do not teach. The set-up for our
school involves the teacher breaking out a small group to provide more
individual attention while the classroom volunteer supervises the rest of
the class with an assigned project. If a student has a question, the
volunteer helps the student figure it out or gives the answer. I've had
students ask me how to spell a word and I've taught them how to use a
dictionary.

Classroom volunteers assist with the remedial students. When the entire
class understands money math yet two students aren't getting it, the
teacher will move on to something else while the parent volunteer takes
the two students aside and begins teaching the value of quarters, dimes,
and nickels. Often times, you'll get a 2nd grader who can't count by 5's
or 10's towards the end of the year and if s/he is unable to master this
simple skill, s/he may need to repeat a grade. A classroom volunteer
provides at least a shot for these kids to advance to the next grade. If
the student isn't getting it after nearly the entire class does, the
teacher cannot hold up the rest of the class until that one student
finally understands the lesson at hand.

Noreen

[Iowacookiemom]

>In our school, whoever wants to drive had kids in their cars, even if
>there were too many parent volunteers that we ended up with only two kids
>to transport in each car.

Our school limits parent volunteers because they usually have to pay admission
for those volunteers. Perhaps if the cash-strapped schools you describe
limited parent attendance, they could use the saved admission money for some of
the services you wish were available.

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[Noreen Cooper]

Iowacookiemom > wrote:

: Our school limits parent volunteers because they usually have to pay admission
: for those volunteers. Perhaps if the cash-strapped schools you describe
: limited parent attendance, they could use the saved admission money for some of
: the services you wish were available.

Oh, believe me, this is rare to have too many drivers. Most of the time
we have too few. I'm saying we wouldn't leave any parent out who wanted
to attend an event with the kids.

Noreen

[Rosalie B.]

(chiam margalit) wrote:

>"Rosalie B." > wrote in message >...
>> Elisabeth Riba > wrote:
>>
>> >Robyn Kozierok > wrote:
>> >> >The resource teachers are mandated by law for special needs students.
>> >> >The school cannot eliminate them.
>>
>> >> When I was a kid, they were also available to help the above-average
>> >> students who needed higher-level or faster instruction. This is
>> >> rarely the case today.
>> >
>> >And, I will point out that an IQ of 130 is just as far from "normal" as an
>> >IQ of 70.
>>
>> I don't know that I had ever seen resource teachers for the upper end
>> of the spectrum when I was in school although we were, to a certain
>> extent 'tracked' (talking about K-6). So from my perspective, this
>> kind of help is fairly recent. It wasn't until my children were in
>> school that there were G&T classes.
>
>Again, not EVERY school in the world is just like the school you
>attended and your children attended. I am 51 years old, my sister is
>57 years old and we both attended schools for the gifted and talented.
>In fact, there was a burgeoning GT program in Los Angeles well before
>I was in school. So, my experience is different than what you claim,
>and my experience is just as valid as yours.

That's true - all schools and school districts are not alike. I'm
about 15 years older than you are and I went to school in Maryland.
And I'm sure we did not have G&T either in the city schools or the
county schools because we moved, and I was in both systems. My dh
even went to the poster elementary school (i.e. the shining example
school) at the local state teacher's college, and he didn't have
anything like that either.
>>
>> In addition, when my kids were in school (and they are now 42-32 years
>> old) there was also the option at least for math of being pulled out
>> for a higher level class. So someone in 7th grade might be taking Alg
>> I in 8th grade and in 8th grade they would go over to the adjacent HS
>> to take Geometry or whatever. And it was becoming increasingly
>> common for the kids to take college classes for part of the day.
>>
>> I also found that there was a great dichotomy in how the sped classes
>> were administered. It was different in elementary school than it was
>> in middle school. Often we would get kids in 6th grade that had been
>> taken off sped and sent to us with no services. If they needed help,
>> we had to go through the whole process again. (One of the things I
>> typically did at the beginning of the school year was go through the
>> records and see whether anything like this had happened.)
>>
>> In middle school, the kids were graded on whether they were achieving
>> up to their potential. So a kid with an IQ of 70 [not sure of the
>> actual numbers here] that was reading on 3rd or 4rd grade level was
>> doing fine or better than expected and not eligible for services -
>> they were main streamed. They couldn't get services unless they were
>> more than 3 full grades below grade level. I'm not sure what the HS
>> requirements were but they were graded differently in HS so I'm sure
>> their sped requirements were different too.
>
>This is not how it worked at all. Perhaps your school district didn't
>follow the federal mandates on special education, or your state had
>different interpretations of the laws, which is common, but children
>denied services until they were 3 grade levels behind could sue the
>pants off the school district, just as they can today. I think you're
>misremembering.
>
When I was teaching 6th grade in 1979, I had a child who was EMR - she
worked her tail off and could read at about 3rd or 4th grade level. I
was told she couldn't have services until she was in 7th or 8th grade
because she was reading up to and past her ability and wasn't far
enough below grade level. She was the daughter of the school
custodian. I don't think her parents would have thought of doing
anything like suing.

We did have one suit that I can remember, but it was because the PE
teacher asked a kid to move a volleyball net standard and it fell
apart and hurt his toe. They sued the teacher, the school system and
the volley ball equipment manufacturer. I don't think they prevailed.



grandma Rosalie

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, Noreen Cooper wrote:
> This would apply more to the upper grades, IMO. Bringing in a NASA
> scientist to speak to 2nd graders may appeal to the gifted few but I doubt
> it'd be as significant of a learning experience for kids struggling with 1
> plus 2.

I disagree here---if an expert can make his or her material accessible
to children (some can, some can't), it can be VERY inspiring to hear
from them directly when young. It can make the difference between
someone deciding that the math and science they are struggling with is
worth the effort or not.


--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Elizabeth King]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> My children are not school age yet, but you see this at all levels of
> child care and education, not just kindergarten. There are preschools
> that strongly discourage parents from being present in the classroom,
> because they want to control the experience and they don't want the
> parents interfering with their concept. And there are preschools that
> insist that all of the parents participate in the classroom, because
> they don't want this artificial divide between school and family life.
> The latter makes a lot more sense to me.

This isn't an either/or, as strange as it may seem.

My daughter just started Kindergarten at a school which requires parent
participation both in the classroom and in the school as a whole, but on the
second day of school, all children were required to be dropped at the door.
The teacher says they need that day to come together as a class. In the
second week, the experienced aiding parents (those with older children at
the school) will start, and new parents will be folded in at the end of the
month. That works for me-- I do think that us new parents will bring some
amount of chaos with us when we all start.

Liz

[Noreen Cooper]

Kevin Karplus > wrote:

: One that I was surprised they didn't do is to visit the sewage
: treatment plant, which is just a few blocks from the school. I think
: the first-grade teacher might do it this year as part of the "liquids
: and solids" unit---it simply hadn't occured to her, though the plant
: does do a lot of field trips for more distant schools.

I'm going to suggest we do the Mission Mural Walking Tour this year for my
son's 3rd grade class. For those who aren't familiar with the Mission
District in San Francisco, it's full of wonderful and colorful Hispanic
murals on the front and side of many buildings on 24th Street. The charge
is only $1.00 US dollar per child and is led by a tour guide. I hope the
teacher likes the idea. I think it would be awesome.

Noreen

[Ann Porter]

"Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
...

> One that I was surprised they didn't do is to visit the sewage
> treatment plant, which is just a few blocks from the school. I think
> the first-grade teacher might do it this year as part of the "liquids
> and solids" unit---it simply hadn't occured to her, though the plant
> does do a lot of field trips for more distant schools.

Eww. I realize sewage treatment is very (very) important, but I prefer not
to think about it, let alone visit the facility where it's done.

Sort of like how I prefer to think of my hamburger as coming from
cellophane-wrapped packages, rather than from a cow.

Best,
Ann

[Iowacookiemom]

>I'm not sure I'd describe the conversation here as "community." Not that
>it hasn't been interesting and useful, but community can also mean
>"supportive" and I still feel we (and I include myself in this, too)
>weren't as supportive as we could have been to the OP by hijacking the
>thread *immediately* off into a tangent without taking the time to
>acknowledge her concerns.

Several folks did give some useful advice. The thread was hijacked, imo, not
when folks questioned your suggestion of volunteering but when you absolutely
would NOT accept that good people might just disagree on this point.

Hijacking in a community doesn't happen when people disagree. Heck, I *expect*
folks to disagree in a community. Hijacking comes when folks can't handle the
disagreement, or appear to need everyone to change their minds before they will
just Let. It. Die.



-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(Iowacookiemom) wrote:

> >At the time, I was too new in town to have had any other numbers to give
> >them --
>
> Does anyone have suggestions regarding this? We are brand, spanking new in
> our
> new community -- been here 5 whole weeks. My husband is reluctant to ask
> work
> friends to be our emergency contact since most of the folks he's gotten to
> know
> work *for* him and it seems like an unfair request from a supervisor to a
> subordinate. We haven't yet found a church, and we barely know neighbors.
> Has
> anyone out there solved this creatively?
>

I left it blank until I had some names.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, Ann Porter wrote:
> "Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> One that I was surprised they didn't do is to visit the sewage
>> treatment plant, which is just a few blocks from the school. I think
>> the first-grade teacher might do it this year as part of the "liquids
>> and solids" unit---it simply hadn't occured to her, though the plant
>> does do a lot of field trips for more distant schools.
>
> Eww. I realize sewage treatment is very (very) important, but I prefer not
> to think about it, let alone visit the facility where it's done.

My family went on a public tour of the sewage facility this summer
(they were doing a grand opening for their newly expanded
methane-powered cogeneration facility, their new solar panels, and
their new carbon filters for odor control). We were pleasantly
surprised by how clean and odorless the plant was, and less pleasantly
surprised by how noisy the pumps were. The sewage treatment plants
are much more complex and interesting than water treatment plants,
and are good tie-ins to several school subjects (biology, chemistry,
ecology, economics, ...). The big pumps and generators also would
appeal to the machine-mad kids (a substantial fraction of the young
boys around here).

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Elizabeth King]

"Noreen Cooper" > wrote in message
...

> Is there any moderate WP out there who can possibly explain to me why
> these huge leaps of interpretation continue contra to everyone stating
> time and time again that helping out need not be defined? Is it out of
> guilt for not doing enough? Constant harassment by school officials? I
> am completely perplexed, and I mean it.

I'm a SAHM.

I'm a ways from being done with this thread, but it has had an interesting
effect on me.

I've felt guilty about putting my daughter into a public school that is not
a neighborhood school, and requires the parents to volunteer so that they
can offer the rich curriculum they have.

I know it is the right thing for my daughter, but I've felt a little guilty
that I've been taking my volunteer time out of my neighborhood school. I
know there is a much lower volunteer rate there, and I'd assumed that it was
because most families couldn't-- both parents working in inflexible jobs,
etc. But now I'm finding out that A) there are ways for these parents to be
involved and B) there are a non-trivial number of them (on this thread) that
don't think we should be volunteering-- they actively object to it.

So now I feel much less guilty.

I never have felt everyone should be in the classroom, involved with the
kids. I'm reasonably certain even schools like my daughter's make
exceptions for extreme cases. But I do think all of the kinds of helping
out at school is valuable-- be it grading tests, participating in
fundraisers, donating to the library, or many other ways.

Liz

[Leah Adezio]

"Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Leah Adezio" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "MarjiG" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public
schools
>
> ^^^
> > is
> > > being a bad citizen.
> >
> > I pay my taxes. I pay my $5.00 per year to the Middle School
Association.
> > And right now, that's it. That's all I can *handle* right now. I'm out
> of
> > the house at 7:30 each morning. I'm lucky if I get home from work by
6:30
> > each night. If I have to run errands or go grocery shopping, sometimes
I
> > don't get home until 10 pm.
> >
> > So, screw it. I guess I'm a 'bad citizen' because I don't (actually,
> > *can't*) volunteer in my son's schools now. I did when they were
younger.
> ^^^^^
>
> Okay, I admit, I prefer the parents that do hands on classroom help
> be proficient in reading comprehension. (If you "can't" volunteer
> then volunteering doesn't fall under things you "can" do.)

My reading comprehension is quite fine, thank you.

There's been a huge assumption (assumption, heck -- it's been said outright)
that people who don't volunteer in school are bad citizens and bad
parents -- *without* taking into consideration that it's often not a matter
of *don't*, it's *can't*.

I was pointing out that for some of us, it truly is *can't*.
>
> I also subscribe to the theory behind public schools, ensuring
> all children are educated even if their parents can't afford the
> time or money for a private school. There are many single
> parents out there who can't afford donations and don't have
> flexible work schedules and have no free time after work to help
> with the schools. They are doing all they can by getting their
> kids to school. That's fine. They are doing their best.
>
> I'd also like to emphasize that much, if not most volunteering
> done at our local schools is not classroom volunteering, but
> volunteering done outside school hours. Most PTA and school
> family activities are done on weekends or evenings. The volunteers
> running those are often working folks. There are many paper
> work type jobs, from organizing the volunteer forms to managing
> the classroom book orders that are done at home. It's absolutely
> impossible to see who is giving the most hours to schools, as
> much of these hours are given behind the scene. The kicker is
> many of these volunteer jobs are much more altruistic, they are
> volunteering to help the school as a whole, not to see how their
> kid is doing. So if we are comparing virtue...

You might be comparing, I'm not. And -- oooh, reading comprehension back
atcha -- I specifically mentioned that the district we're now in refused an
offer of what I can do that falls under the above categories. I've done
things like this in the past; this district apparently didn't need what I
could offer on a volunteer basis. ::shrug::

So, I do what I can, as I mentioned in my first post. We do also donate
books -- the high school has a very active anime and manga club, and the
library is building a graphic novel section, so not only do we donate GNs
that we've read and don't want to keep, but I've also donated some anthology
books in which I've had work published.

But for me, that's it right now.

Leah

>

[David desJardins]

Leah Adezio writes:
> I'm only going by what Marji specifically *wrote* -- no implication at
> all -- that if you don't volunteer in public schools, you're a bad citizen.

With all due respect, that's not what she said. She said (exact quote):
"Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools is being a
bad citizen." I'm not sure if you misread this, or what, but I know I
don't like being misquoted, and I doubt she likes it either. You have
clearly said that you can't do any more than you're doing now---so, just
reading what she actually wrote, she's not criticizing you at all,
because you're doing what you can.

David desJardins

[chiam margalit]

(Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
> In article >, Rosalie B. wrote:
> > That's true - all schools and school districts are not alike. I'm
> > about 15 years older than you are and I went to school in Maryland.
> > And I'm sure we did not have G&T either in the city schools or the
> > county schools because we moved, and I was in both systems. My dh
> > even went to the poster elementary school (i.e. the shining example
> > school) at the local state teacher's college, and he didn't have
> > anything like that either.
>
> When I was a kid, going to school in Illinois the late 50s and 60s,
> there were no gifted and talented programs in my school. I remember
> being tested a few times, and my parents seriously considered putting
> me into a private school (which they really could not afford). I
> think that one big difference is that in those days it was not unusual
> for kids to skip a grade if they were ahead (I skipped a grade even
> though I was already the youngest in the class). Convincing school
> districts to let kids skip got very difficult in the 80s and 90s, but
> I understand that more recent research once again supports allowing
> students to skip grades if they are academically advanced.

I think acceleration is a regional thing. I grew up in SoCal and I
skipped a year of school and did my siblings. My son is growing up in
NoCal and he's skipped 2 grades. It's unusual, but *not* unheard of in
CA. However, in the Boston area, where many of my friends live,
skipping is so unusual as to be impossible to achieve (of course there
is no such thing as a gifted child in MA, because ALL children are
gifted in MA, according to the state board of education.) I have
several MA friends with very GT kids who cannot get them skipped, even
within private schools. And homeschooling is much harder in MA than in
CA, so you can't radically accelerate that way, either. Now in
Tennessee, where some of the brightest kids in the world reside (it
must be the water!), they DO accelerate and they DO have early college
admission. I know a family where a 9,11, and 12 year sibling group all
started college at the same time, having finished high school
together. Another 14 YO I know just entered college there. He's not
alone by any stretch!

Pennsylvania and Florida also seem to accelerate more than other
states, and NY tends to still radically accelerate kids too. And
indeed, you're correct that recent research shows that radical
acceleration for the academically gifted is absolutely the best thing
for them, but.... sometimes a single grade skip will not be
successful. Indeed, I've discovered with my own son that a single
grade skip was not enough socially, emotionally, and academically, but
a double skip was exactly what he needed in order to be successful
socially, be happy emotionally, and to be academically successful. The
work still isn't horribly challanging, but at least he has the
opportunity to choose courses that will stimulate him, which he could
not do if he were in with his age peers.

Marjorie

[chiam margalit]

(Iowacookiemom) wrote in message >...
> >In our school, whoever wants to drive had kids in their cars, even if
> >there were too many parent volunteers that we ended up with only two kids
> >to transport in each car.
>
> Our school limits parent volunteers because they usually have to pay admission
> for those volunteers. Perhaps if the cash-strapped schools you describe
> limited parent attendance, they could use the saved admission money for some of
> the services you wish were available.

Our school requires everyone to pay their own way for field trips,
parent volunteers included. The *only* children who do not have to pay
are those on the free lunch program. Even the reduced lunch kids have
to pay. My kids have attended 5 different schools in 2 different areas
of the country and that has consistantly been the rule. YOu want to go
on the field trip, you pay your own way. This past year we had a field
trip that cost over $25 per child (it was a marine biology lab on a
boat and it was a whole day out on the boat, which *does* cost a lot).
I was fairly preturbed about the cost, but I ponied up the $$. One
other kid in my son's class was unable to pay and other parents
donated a bit of extra money for this kid. I think that is a terrible
policy, but again.... the state is so darn strapped it's a wonder we
still have schools!

Marjorie
>
> -Dawn
> Mom to Henry, 10

[chiam margalit]

(Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
> In article >, Noreen Cooper wrote:
> > This would apply more to the upper grades, IMO. Bringing in a NASA
> > scientist to speak to 2nd graders may appeal to the gifted few but I doubt
> > it'd be as significant of a learning experience for kids struggling with 1
> > plus 2.
>
> I disagree here---if an expert can make his or her material accessible
> to children (some can, some can't), it can be VERY inspiring to hear
> from them directly when young. It can make the difference between
> someone deciding that the math and science they are struggling with is
> worth the effort or not.

I agree with Kevin. And as I know an astrophysics expert from NASA JPL
who does just this, work with young children and create curriculum for
elementary classrooms (plus, she's an old misc.kidder from way back in
the old days), I know first hand how inspiring this can be for young
kids. FWIW, NASA has a lot of free materials for young students. You
just have to ask.

Marjorie

[chiam margalit]

Elisabeth Riba > wrote in message >...
> Noreen Cooper > wrote:
> > Rather than have the teacher spend two weeks on identifying
> > colors for the entire class, the teacher sends over the remedial students
> > to a parent volunteer to teach them their colors while the rest of the
> > class is on to more advanced subjects.
>
> <sarcasm>So, the students who need the most help get it from the least
> qualified?</sarcasm>

Bingo! You win the Kewpie Doll!

This is, in a one-sentence nutshell, why I do not want volunteers
working with my LD daughter.

Marjorie

[Bruce and Jeanne]

Ann Porter wrote:

> "Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > One that I was surprised they didn't do is to visit the sewage
> > treatment plant, which is just a few blocks from the school. I think
> > the first-grade teacher might do it this year as part of the "liquids
> > and solids" unit---it simply hadn't occured to her, though the plant
> > does do a lot of field trips for more distant schools.
>
> Eww. I realize sewage treatment is very (very) important, but I prefer not
> to think about it, let alone visit the facility where it's done.
>
> Sort of like how I prefer to think of my hamburger as coming from
> cellophane-wrapped packages, rather than from a cow.
>
> Best,
> Ann
>
>
I remmber going to our water treatment plant while in grade school. It
was an interesting field trip and not as stinky as one would think.

Jeanne
>

[Marion Baumgarten]

Elizabeth King > wrote:


>
> I know it is the right thing for my daughter, but I've felt a little guilty
> that I've been taking my volunteer time out of my neighborhood school. I
> know there is a much lower volunteer rate there, and I'd assumed that it was
> because most families couldn't-- both parents working in inflexible jobs,
> etc. But now I'm finding out that A) there are ways for these parents to be
> involved and B) there are a non-trivial number of them (on this thread) that
> don't think we should be volunteering-- they actively object to it.
>

I haven't seen anyone object to volunteering in the schools- just the
idea that everone must do it or that it is a panacea to the problems
that schools face.

I posted a list of volunteer activites I had done (community center,
Sunday school, etc,) but got the message that it wasn't enough because
it wasn't helping the SCHOOL. (BTW, I have voulnteered at school as
well)

Also, in society, I see this guilt directed only at women. Bad mommies
go off to "work" selfishly when the could be helping the SCHOOLS. Guess
the daycare angle didn't work.

Also, I am still uneasy about having parents garde tests. Dawn is very
responsible, not everyone has her high standards. Fundraising- how many
schools do you know that do enough fundraising to make an appreciable
difference? Say to pay the salary for an aid to a first grade class?

Marion Baumgarten

[Elisabeth Riba]

chiam margalit > wrote:
> However, in the Boston area, where many of my friends live,
> skipping is so unusual as to be impossible to achieve (of course there
> is no such thing as a gifted child in MA, because ALL children are
> gifted in MA, according to the state board of education.)

My husband grew up in MA, and said that many of the gifted students in his
classes wound up in the special ed program (for diagnoses of ADHD and the
like) *because* there weren't special classes for gifted students, and
this was the only way to get them any help outside the mainstream.

That's one reason why in MA, he claimed, had such higher numbers of
special ed students than other states.

I went to elementary school in WI, and not only was I skipped a grade, but
attended special gifted programs, but classes were not tracked. When my
family moved to FL in middle-school, classes *were* tracked, and I
suddenly jumped from an average student bored with classes to the top 5%
of my class.]

[Isn't it Lake Wobegon where all the kids are above-average?]

--
------> Elisabeth Riba * http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/ <------
"[She] is one of the secret masters of the world: a librarian.
They control information. Don't ever **** one off."
- Spider Robinson, "Callahan Touch"

[Elisabeth Riba]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:
> In our school, whoever wants to drive had kids in their cars, even if
> there were too many parent volunteers that we ended up with only two kids
> to transport in each car. The bigger problem in our district is finding
> enough drivers since most children come from two working parents who can't
> get off work to drive on field trips.

I'd say that more stringent requirements for child safety seats has
probably complicated matters, since one can now fit fewer children into
a vehicle if nobody is allowed to sit in the front seat, and every one
must have a child seat.


--
------> Elisabeth Riba * http://www.osmond-riba.org/lis/ <------
"[She] is one of the secret masters of the world: a librarian.
They control information. Don't ever **** one off."
- Spider Robinson, "Callahan Touch"

[Robin]

"Elizabeth King" > wrote in message >...

> I know it is the right thing for my daughter, but I've felt a little guilty
> that I've been taking my volunteer time out of my neighborhood school. I
> know there is a much lower volunteer rate there, and I'd assumed that it was
> because most families couldn't-- both parents working in inflexible jobs,
> etc. But now I'm finding out that A) there are ways for these parents to be
> involved and B) there are a non-trivial number of them (on this thread) that
> don't think we should be volunteering-- they actively object to it.

Actually, for perspective, I've seen only one poster on this thread
objecting to the act of school volunteering itself (and she has
focused her objection specifically on in-class student instruction by
volunteers, not the many other things that volunteers do that don't
involve direct student instruction). Contrary to the broad
characterizations of a few posters that there's a massive
"anti-volunteer" contingent in this thread, what I've seen has
specifically been (1) people objecting to being *expected* to
personally volunteer, and (2) complaints about the way specific
volunteers have carried out this role (erroneous grading or other
unhelpful work, or else using volunteering as a full-time social
connection and having an attitude that excludes occasional
volunteers). That's a far cry from a non-trivial number of people
saying they don't think anyone should volunteer, or actively objecting
to the very concept of school volunteering. That, I haven't seen at
all.

I haven't had experience with POV #2, though the descriptions on this
thread do not surprise me. I definitely understand POV #1. I do a
reasonable number of altruistic or charitable acts, but the inherent
voluntary nature of them is essential for me. When I'm told that I am
*expected* or *required* to do something that should normally be a
voluntary decision, I tend to get my stubborn up, even if I was
planning to do it in the first place. This happened once when a
colleague in one of my offices popped into my cubicle and declared,
"It's Secretaries' Day next week, pony up." I declined in no uncertain
terms, and bought the secretary a gift on my own, privately, rather
than contributing to a group gift. If my colleague had *asked* me
rather than *told* me to contribute, I would have done so gladly. And
then there was the time my division head declared that he expected
100% participation in the annual *voluntary* holiday giving drive
(equivalent to United Way). When my form didn't appear in the pile as
the deadline approached, my own boss called me in and told me he'd pay
for my donation himself, if I'd only fill out the form under my name.
Meanwhile the secretary who was handling the donations accused me of
being a bad person for not giving to charity. I pointed out that I
gave quite enough, but on my own terms, on my own schedule, and to my
own choice of recipients ... because that's what charity means. The
day it was due, I turned in a form with a sizable donation, which is
what I had planned from the start. But it was being told that I *must*
that got my hackles up.

When I go to back-to-school night and someone from the PTO announces
"If you'd like to look over the volunteer opportunities, you'll find
sign-up sheets on this table" and lets us make our own decisions, I'm
likely to sign up for something. But if someone from the school called
me and said "When can we put you down for your volunteer duty?" I'd be
pretty annoyed. That would be different, of course, for a school that
made X number of hours of parental labor a condition of the child's
admission -- but that's a contracted obligation, not "volunteering."
The very nature of the word says it's *voluntary*. I consider that I
have a moral obligation to give to society of my time and/or money as
I am capable, but it's completely up to me to determine how much of my
resources to give and where those resources will go. Schools are only
one good choice among many great needs.

--Robin

[Cathy Kearns]

"Marion Baumgarten" > wrote in message
om...
> Elizabeth King > wrote:
>Fundraising- how many
> schools do you know that do enough fundraising to make an appreciable
> difference? Say to pay the salary for an aid to a first grade class?

You probably don't want to go there. Our district raised $1.2 million
last year to play for extra teachers at all 6 elementary and two
junior high schools. In addition each PTA raises between
$60K and $100K that pays for library and art aides, among
other things.

But just because some can and do doesn't mean it should
be expected of all or any public schools.

>
> Marion Baumgarten
>

[Noreen Cooper]

chiam margalit > wrote:

: And yes, the murals are lovely but....

: *(For those unfamiliar with this area of San Francisco, it is an
: *extremely* gay area and home to a lot of what is known as 'rough
: trade'. We saw our first guy in chaps and nothing on under them but a
: lot of penile piercings in the Mission. Yes, it's an education, but
: I'd bet plenty of parents don't want that kind of education for their
: young and impressionable children. Of course, not everyone who lives
: in the Mission is gay or pierced, but enough are that it could be
: cause for alarm.)

Are we confusing the Castro with the Mission here? Marjorie, I lived 18
years in the City and the Mission district has always been the Hispanic
enclave in San Francisco. Gay people do live in San Francisco in general
and the Mission is a great place for city dwellers to buy cheap
vegetables. But the Mission has never been primarily gay. Never.

Under those circumstances you'd have to argue kids should never go on
field trips to San Francisco lest they run into someone gay. I saw my
share of characters up in the City but never someone wearing only chaps
and their thong hanging out adorned with piercings. But even if my son
did see something like that, I think he would survive the experience
without lasting damage. It'd be an opportunity to talk about people who
make statements with their bodies, and we'd go from there.

Noreen (who's beginning to feel like the Eminem for mkm -- humming along
with the song "Without Me" ;-)

[Circe]

"Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message
m...
> You probably don't want to go there. Our district raised $1.2 million
> last year to play for extra teachers at all 6 elementary and two
> junior high schools. In addition each PTA raises between
> $60K and $100K that pays for library and art aides, among
> other things.
>
> But just because some can and do doesn't mean it should
> be expected of all or any public schools.
>
And schools in poor inner city districts, who most *need* the money, are the
least likely to be able to achieve such fundraising results. Still, every
public school that manages to raise this kind of money just disincents the
government from spending the amount of money that is actually *needed* to
properly fund *all* schools.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"...we patiently sat by his door, waiting for it to open so he could tell us
all about who he had met" -- from _Uncle Andy's_ by James Warhola

[Circe]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Some people have said that it's possible to monitor what's going on in
> the school just as well without ever being there. I'm doubtful that
> that's true, and even if it were, I still don't really understand why
> people would go to lengths just to maintain that distance. It's like
> deciding that I'm going to interact with my children by two-way
> television, instead of being with them in person. Perhaps, with an
> effort, I could find out just as much about them as if I were there, but
> I don't see why I'd want to do it that way. While my children aren't
> school age yet, and maybe I will be surprised, it seems to me that
> spending a couple of hours in a classroom now and then would be by far
> the most efficient and effective way to find out what's going on there.

Well, first and foremost, I think it's important for kids, even in
kindergarten or first grade, to develop confidence in their own ability to
handle things without Mommy and Daddy constantly running interference for
them. Now, of course, sometimes, you *have* to run interference for a 5 or
6yo; they're just not *able* to solve all problems they might encounter
themselves. Still, school is an environment *designed* to meet the needs of
children and, therefore, kids *ought* to be able to negotiate it reasonably
well without hanging onto their parents' coattails. That's not to say that
*all* schools do meet their needs of children or are readily negotiable by
every child, but I believe I should see some *evidence* that my child isn't
able to manage on his or her own before getting directly involved.

Another reason I personally have made the choice to stay away from the
classroom is that, on the one occasion I did observe, I was a *huge*
distraction to my son. Although I think he would *like* me to volunteer in
the classroom on a more regular basis, I think my presence is far more
hindrance than help to him. So, unless there's some evidence of a problem
(resistance to going to school, poor grades, indications from the teacher
that there are behavior problems, etc.), I prefer to let my son have school
as a sphere of his life where I'm *not* involved since I am so constantly
involved in nearly every other sphere of it. He needs to develop as an
independent human being capable of getting along with others and doing what
needs to be done, and school is one of the first places he'll have the
opportunity to do that.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"...we patiently sat by his door, waiting for it to open so he could tell us
all about who he had met" -- from _Uncle Andy's_ by James Warhola

[David desJardins]

Barbara writes:
> Well, first and foremost, I think it's important for kids, even in
> kindergarten or first grade, to develop confidence in their own
> ability to handle things without Mommy and Daddy constantly running
> interference for them.

I just don't see how spending a couple of hours in a classroom, once in
a while, in order to have some contact with what's going on there and to
play a part in the process, is "constantly running interference".

> Now, of course, sometimes, you *have* to run interference for a 5 or
> 6yo; they're just not *able* to solve all problems they might
> encounter themselves.

You have placed an intense focus on "problems". I don't think that it
has to be so adversarial (i.e., the parent only has any role in
education when there's something "wrong" at the school). I see it as a
cooperative process from day one. It just seems so clear to me that a
school where all of the parents cooperate to educate their children is a
better idea than a school where the parents turn the whole matter over
to "professionals", and only have any role if there's a "problem".

I guess I'm coming to the same point of view that Elizabeth has
expressed, albeit reluctantly. Those of us who see school as a
cooperative process among all of us, can volunteer in our schools, and
contribute to make them as good as we can. And I won't feel guilty
about contributing to my schools, and not helping other schools where my
children don't go, since there seem to be many parents who don't want my
kind of help, anyway.

David desJardins

[Claire Petersky]

Bruce and Jeanne > wrote in message >...
> Ann Porter wrote:
>
> > "Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > One that I was surprised they didn't do is to visit the sewage
> > > treatment plant, which is just a few blocks from the school. I think
> > > the first-grade teacher might do it this year as part of the "liquids
> > > and solids" unit---it simply hadn't occured to her, though the plant
> > > does do a lot of field trips for more distant schools.
> >
> > Eww. I realize sewage treatment is very (very) important, but I prefer not
> > to think about it, let alone visit the facility where it's done.
> >
> > Sort of like how I prefer to think of my hamburger as coming from
> > cellophane-wrapped packages, rather than from a cow.
>
> I remmber going to our water treatment plant while in grade school. It
> was an interesting field trip and not as stinky as one would think.

I took Emma's Camp Fire group (yup, I'm one of those apparently
irresponsible and uncaring parents who volunteer through a youth
organization, rather than in the classroom) to our local wastewater
treatment facility on a field trip. It was indeed very interesting.

Water quality is an issue for communities world-wide, and a field trip
to the water treatment plant would probably be a good field trip for
everyone.

Warm Regards,


Claire Petersky )

Home of the meditative cyclist:
http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm

Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at:
http://bookcrossing.com/friend/Cpetersky

[Circe]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Barbara writes:
> > Well, first and foremost, I think it's important for kids, even in
> > kindergarten or first grade, to develop confidence in their own
> > ability to handle things without Mommy and Daddy constantly running
> > interference for them.
>
> I just don't see how spending a couple of hours in a classroom, once in
> a while, in order to have some contact with what's going on there and to
> play a part in the process, is "constantly running interference".

I guess it depends a great deal on what you mean by "once in a while". My
experience has been that parents who volunteer in the classroom do so for a
set number of hours on the same day each week. Of course, any parent can
drop in and observe during class time any time they wish, but in general,
most parents who are in the classroom are there on a regular basis far more
than what I'd call "once in a while". And the teachers tend to prefer that
classroom volunteers commit to being there on a particular day at a
particular time so that they know what resources they will have to assist
them at any given time. I can't blame them for that.

I'm just not sure how much you can reasonably expect to contribute to the
process or how much insight you can reasonably expect to gain from "a few
hours once in a while" if that means dropping in for a couple of hours once
every month or two.
>
> > Now, of course, sometimes, you *have* to run interference for a 5 or
> > 6yo; they're just not *able* to solve all problems they might
> > encounter themselves.
>
> You have placed an intense focus on "problems". I don't think that it
> has to be so adversarial (i.e., the parent only has any role in
> education when there's something "wrong" at the school). I see it as a
> cooperative process from day one.

I see it as cooperative as well. It's just that *my* part of the process
isn't primarily or necessarily accomplished *at school*. I certainly
collaborate with my children's teachers when it comes to ensuring that
they're learning what they should and generally doing well emotionally as
well as academically. It's just that I don't think I need to be *in the
classroom* to do that.

> It just seems so clear to me that a
> school where all of the parents cooperate to educate their children is a
> better idea than a school where the parents turn the whole matter over
> to "professionals", and only have any role if there's a "problem".
>
Ah, but that's not what I'm suggesting. What I *am* suggesting is that the
part of school that happens at school is only one part of the educational
process. What happens at home is equally valid and important, and the part
that happens at home is the part I'm responsible for.

> I guess I'm coming to the same point of view that Elizabeth has
> expressed, albeit reluctantly. Those of us who see school as a
> cooperative process among all of us, can volunteer in our schools, and
> contribute to make them as good as we can. And I won't feel guilty
> about contributing to my schools, and not helping other schools where my
> children don't go, since there seem to be many parents who don't want my
> kind of help, anyway.

I'm not remotely suggesting that I think *no one* should volunteer in the
classroom or otherwise "do something for their schools". What I'm suggesting
is that no one should be *expected* to do so, any more than anyone should be
expected to purchase tickets for and attend the police ball in order to get
police protection. If folks want to do *extra*, that's fine and even
laudable, but I think it should be viewed *as* extra, rather than as an
obligation or expectation.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"...we patiently sat by his door, waiting for it to open so he could tell us
all about who he had met" -- from _Uncle Andy's_ by James Warhola

[David desJardins]

Barbara writes:
> I guess it depends a great deal on what you mean by "once in a
> while". My experience has been that parents who volunteer in the
> classroom do so for a set number of hours on the same day each week.

I don't have any such experience, so maybe I'm naive, but I don't see
any justification for this "all or nothing" approach. With 20+ students
in a class, if all of the parents showed up for several hours every
week, they could hardly fit in the room. I would be surprised and
disappointed if the school rejected my participation because I wouldn't
be available every week. I don't think that's a good policy, and it
certainly would discourage participation.

>> You have placed an intense focus on "problems". I don't think that it
>> has to be so adversarial (i.e., the parent only has any role in
>> education when there's something "wrong" at the school). I see it as a
>> cooperative process from day one.
>
> I see it as cooperative as well. It's just that *my* part of the process
> isn't primarily or necessarily accomplished *at school*.

When you divide your children's education into "my part" and "their
part", I think you've lost the cooperative principle that's important to
me. For my kids, I reject the idea of separate "parts". It's all "my
part".

David desJardins

[Leah Adezio]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Leah Adezio writes:
> > I'm only going by what Marji specifically *wrote* -- no implication at
> > all -- that if you don't volunteer in public schools, you're a bad
citizen.
>
> With all due respect, that's not what she said. She said (exact quote):
> "Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools is being a
> bad citizen." I'm not sure if you misread this, or what, but I know I
> don't like being misquoted, and I doubt she likes it either.

Fair enough...though considering the greatest bulk of the discussion has
been specifically about *volunteering*, I think it's a valid
*interpretation*. But I'll concede the point. :)

>You have
> clearly said that you can't do any more than you're doing now---so, just
> reading what she actually wrote, she's not criticizing you at all,
> because you're doing what you can.

What I resent is that it shouldn't *matter* -- the 'doing what one *can*'
thing. People should have the right to make these choices for themselves
and be able to choose where they spend their altruistic time and money
without being judged by *anyone*.

There are parents here who donate their time to other interests involving
children -- coaching, religious activies, community activities, etc. Are
their efforts no less valid because they choose to be altruistic somewhere
else besides public or private schooling? There are those who choose
activities or organizations that have little to actually do with children or
education of any kind at all...are *they* wrong? Should they be judged by
anyone?

And why should *my* current circumstances be allowed special dispensation
(as Noreen was so generous to give -- and don't I feel sooooo much better
now, thanks very much), anyway? Why *should* I, recently widowed, be given
a pass when someone whose spouse walked out on them suddenly, might not?
We're both still newly singled parents in a situation that, quite frankly,
stinks out loud.

Leah



>
> David desJardins
>

[Marion Baumgarten]

Iowacookiemom > wrote:

>
> It made me wonder if all district fund-raising should go into one pot and then
> get divided up. But then again, if that happened fundraising overall would
> drop off sharply, so that is no answer.

I forget that I am in an extremely small district- 2 elementary schools
and a middle school with a total enrollment of 1,379 students. (High
school is a different district). Our middle school PTO gave a gift of
$17,00 to the school last year. The parents of 1300 students aren't
going to raise millions of dollars.
>
>

Marion Baumgarten

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >,
Marion Baumgarten wrote:
> I forget that I am in an extremely small district- 2 elementary schools
> and a middle school with a total enrollment of 1,379 students. (High
> school is a different district). Our middle school PTO gave a gift of
> $17,00 to the school last year. The parents of 1300 students aren't
> going to raise millions of dollars.

1379 is a small district! $17,000 for 1379 sounds a bit on the low
side for school fundraising, but if the school is not in desperate
straits, there may not need to be more. The elementary schools around
here very enormously in their fundraising (even within the City of
Santa Cruz). I believe that Westlake, with about 600 students raises
$50,000 to $100,000 a year, most of which goes to fund their art and
music programs. They have also had parents writing grant proposals,
back in the days when the state had any money to give out in grants.
Other schools the same size raise less than a quarter of that. The
difference it makes in the programs between the schools is
substantial, at least if you care about art and music instruction.

The voters of the city have passed some parcel taxes (despite the 2/3
vote needed) to pay for a professional librarian at each school and,
more recently, to keep all 6 elementary schools open. Even the tiny
taxes involved ($81/year per parcel of real estate for the most recent
one) have barely passed. Trying to pass a tax large enough to fund
the schools at an adequate level would be nearly impossible.


--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[chiam margalit]

Noreen Cooper > wrote in message >...
> chiam margalit > wrote:
>
> : And yes, the murals are lovely but....
>
> : *(For those unfamiliar with this area of San Francisco, it is an
> : *extremely* gay area and home to a lot of what is known as 'rough
> : trade'. We saw our first guy in chaps and nothing on under them but a
> : lot of penile piercings in the Mission. Yes, it's an education, but
> : I'd bet plenty of parents don't want that kind of education for their
> : young and impressionable children. Of course, not everyone who lives
> : in the Mission is gay or pierced, but enough are that it could be
> : cause for alarm.)
>
> Are we confusing the Castro with the Mission here? Marjorie, I lived 18
> years in the City and the Mission district has always been the Hispanic
> enclave in San Francisco. Gay people do live in San Francisco in general
> and the Mission is a great place for city dwellers to buy cheap
> vegetables. But the Mission has never been primarily gay. Never.

Yeah? Tell that to the people marching up and down the streets on
Saturday evenings. I think they'd be surprised. Yes, the Castro is
gay, but so is the mission, and with a different *feel* to it. I spend
plenty of time on the 16th St Hill, and if it isn't one blink from
Christopher St, I don't know what is.

Marjorie

[Marion Baumgarten]

Kevin Karplus > wrote:

> In article >,
> Marion Baumgarten wrote:
> > I forget that I am in an extremely small district- 2 elementary schools
> > and a middle school with a total enrollment of 1,379 students. (High
> > school is a different district). Our middle school PTO gave a gift of
> > $17,00 to the school last year. The parents of 1300 students aren't
> > going to raise millions of dollars.
>
> 1379 is a small district! $17,000 for 1379 sounds a bit on the low
> side for school fundraising, but if the school is not in desperate
> straits, there may not need to be more.

They probably raised more but spent some it it- for example our PTO
usually sponsors a speaker for the kids and paid for it. Also that was
for one school. Also we have a separate parent organization that
sponsors the instumental music program- parents are asked to pay about
$150 per year if their child is in band or orchestra and do some
fundraising as well. (We have a separate staff for regular music,
instumental music meets before or after school). Also, we pay high
property taxes- the school collected about 7.3 million in taxes last
fiscal year.

Marion Baumgarten

[Noreen Cooper]

Marion Baumgarten > wrote:

: for one school. Also we have a separate parent organization that
: sponsors the instumental music program- parents are asked to pay about
: $150 per year if their child is in band or orchestra and do some
: fundraising as well.

So what if there's a parent with ample means and no significant excuse to
cough up the extra $150 dollars yet has two kids in band. The kids will
go on one less away trip because of this parent. Do you allow that
parent has no obligation to the band department?

If the Feds are paying only 17% of the cost of each student, I have no
idea why the anti-obligation posters can begin to think their tax paying
completely absolves them from helping out more.

Noreen

Post sent Tuesday, 8/26/03, 6:09am PST

[Beeswing]

Noreen Cooper wrote:

>So what if there's a parent with ample means and no significant excuse to
>cough up the extra $150 dollars yet has two kids in band. The kids will
>go on one less away trip because of this parent. Do you allow that
>parent has no obligation to the band department?

The $150 is an obligation to your child, who is in band. It's not an obligation
to the school.

beeswing,
can we move on now?

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Noreen Cooper > wrote:

> chiam margalit > wrote:
>
> : Yeah? Tell that to the people marching up and down the streets on
> : Saturday evenings. I think they'd be surprised. Yes, the Castro is
> : gay, but so is the mission, and with a different *feel* to it. I spend
> : plenty of time on the 16th St Hill, and if it isn't one blink from
> : Christopher St, I don't know what is.
>
> We wouldn't be planning the field trip on a Saturday evening, I'm
> guessing. I know the Mission is changing and there is a "yuppification"
> factor going on, especially on Valencia Street. But I asked my friend on
> the phone today if the Mission is a new hot-spot for the gay crowd and he
> said absolutely not, it is still primarily Hispanic. My friend is gay and
> gets around to many districts in the City. But there's a huge gay
> population in San Francisco and I doubt anyone is going to have much
> success avoiding seeing an openly gay person in the City, no matter where
> you go.
>
> Noreen
>
> Post sent Tuesday, August 26, 5:58AM PST
>

I know this is obvious but feel a need to point out that one would have
problems avoiding seeing an "openly gay" person anywhere, in any city.

The issue isn't folks who are gay (who look just like anyone else). The
issue is the people (gay or straight) who choose an appearance that is
outside what is considered normal. In SF, that will most likely be some
of the gay men who choose some rather extreme fashion statements. (I
haven't seen many lesbians who make such extreme statements outside of
the Pride Parades.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Penny Gaines]

David desJardins wrote in >:

> Barbara writes:
>> I guess it depends a great deal on what you mean by "once in a
>> while". My experience has been that parents who volunteer in the
>> classroom do so for a set number of hours on the same day each week.
>
> I don't have any such experience, so maybe I'm naive, but I don't see
> any justification for this "all or nothing" approach. With 20+ students
> in a class, if all of the parents showed up for several hours every
> week, they could hardly fit in the room. I would be surprised and
> disappointed if the school rejected my participation because I wouldn't
> be available every week. I don't think that's a good policy, and it
> certainly would discourage participation.

The school my kids go to sometimes asks for the "occasional helpers"
for specific projects. For instance they had an "art week" in June,
when all the children concentrated on various types of creating and
appreciating art. The school wanted extra volenteers then.

.....But it was not a normal classroom setup. The school has a class for
each year-group, but is also divided into three houses. For the art week,
the children worked in their houses, so the 11yos might be helping the
5yos and the three youngest classes working together. The occasional
volenteer would be helpful then, but if his kid was having problems
with a kid in a different house would not get to see any of their
interactions.

In addition, you don't have to be in the school to see what is going on.
The school playground is visible from the local pre-school, and I know
one mum who works there. She keeps an eye on her son from the pre-school.

>>> You have placed an intense focus on "problems". I don't think that it
>>> has to be so adversarial (i.e., the parent only has any role in
>>> education when there's something "wrong" at the school). I see it as a
>>> cooperative process from day one.
>>
>> I see it as cooperative as well. It's just that *my* part of the process
>> isn't primarily or necessarily accomplished *at school*.
>
> When you divide your children's education into "my part" and "their
> part", I think you've lost the cooperative principle that's important to
> me. For my kids, I reject the idea of separate "parts". It's all "my
> part".

Well, I don't see the school part as my part. I choose the school, make
sure their aims for my child match with my aims for my child, make sure
they typically get the results they expect, make sure my kid turns up ready
to learn, and then let the school do what they are employed to do. As
others have said, part of bringing up children is getting them to the point
where they handle their interactions with other people. School is the
start of that.

My other part is to broaden their education. I encourage my kids at home,
by making sure they have plenty of books to read, including reference
books, by taking them to museums, by talking about things that interest me,
and other things that interest them.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Scott Lindstrom]

Beeswing wrote:
> Noreen Cooper wrote:
>
>
>>So what if there's a parent with ample means and no significant excuse to
>>cough up the extra $150 dollars yet has two kids in band. The kids will
>>go on one less away trip because of this parent. Do you allow that
>>parent has no obligation to the band department?
>
>
> The $150 is an obligation to your child, who is in band. It's not an obligation
> to the school.
>
> beeswing,
> can we move on now?
>

Yes, please. Nothing new is being added to this thread.

I will add that DD is in a strings program (5th grade) at her
school -- I believe we pay $40 or so extra for it, a pittance
compared to the $17/week we pay for out-of-school piano
lessons. And of course the strings fee is waived for
those who cannot afford it, a significant portion of
DD's school.

Scott DD 10 and DS 7

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Iowacookiemom > wrote:

*>At the time, I was too new in town to have had any other numbers to give
*>them --
*
*Does anyone have suggestions regarding this? We are brand, spanking new in our
*new community -- been here 5 whole weeks. My husband is reluctant to ask work
*friends to be our emergency contact since most of the folks he's gotten to know
*work *for* him and it seems like an unfair request from a supervisor to a
*subordinate. We haven't yet found a church, and we barely know neighbors. Has
*anyone out there solved this creatively?

I thought "emergency" numbers for schools and stuff were supposed to be
phone numbers for the people who would be responsible for the kid in an
actual emergency. As such, I've put down the names/numbers of our chosen
guardians and the names/numbers of the grandparents. Is that not actually
what they mean when they ask for "emergency" numbers? Because I'm confused
about why the location of the person listed would matter. If there were an
actual emergency situation there might not be a local person with
authority to handle it. That's the way it is, sometimes. Right? Or am I
way off base?

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
chiam margalit > wrote:

*Noreen Cooper > wrote in message >...
*>
*> Are we confusing the Castro with the Mission here? Marjorie, I lived 18
*> years in the City and the Mission district has always been the Hispanic
*> enclave in San Francisco. Gay people do live in San Francisco in general
*> and the Mission is a great place for city dwellers to buy cheap
*> vegetables. But the Mission has never been primarily gay. Never.
*
*Yeah? Tell that to the people marching up and down the streets on
*Saturday evenings. I think they'd be surprised. Yes, the Castro is
*gay, but so is the mission, and with a different *feel* to it. I spend
*plenty of time on the 16th St Hill, and if it isn't one blink from
*Christopher St, I don't know what is.

Heh. Interesting. When I lived in San Francisco, I lived in Cole Valley
and then Parnassus Heights, and I worked in the Marinia district and in
Parnassus Heights, so you know, I'm certainly not an expert on the Castro
or the Mission. But that being said, I made a HUGE number of burrito runs,
at all hours of the day/evening, to Taqueria San Jose which sits at, IIRC,
Mission and 24th, and I never once saw anyone wearing chaps without pants
on underneath, or anything remotely as overtly sexual.

-h.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(Hillary Israeli) wrote:

> In >,
> Iowacookiemom > wrote:
>
> *>At the time, I was too new in town to have had any other numbers to give
> *>them --
> *
> *Does anyone have suggestions regarding this? We are brand, spanking new in
> our
> *new community -- been here 5 whole weeks. My husband is reluctant to ask
> work
> *friends to be our emergency contact since most of the folks he's gotten to
> know
> *work *for* him and it seems like an unfair request from a supervisor to a
> *subordinate. We haven't yet found a church, and we barely know neighbors.
> Has
> *anyone out there solved this creatively?
>
> I thought "emergency" numbers for schools and stuff were supposed to be
> phone numbers for the people who would be responsible for the kid in an
> actual emergency. As such, I've put down the names/numbers of our chosen
> guardians and the names/numbers of the grandparents. Is that not actually
> what they mean when they ask for "emergency" numbers? Because I'm confused
> about why the location of the person listed would matter. If there were an
> actual emergency situation there might not be a local person with
> authority to handle it. That's the way it is, sometimes. Right? Or am I
> way off base?


The only time I've had an emergency number used was when one of my kids
got sick during the school day, and they wanted someone to pick her up.
By the time this happened, fortunately, I had made some connections in
town, as neither the kids' Dad nor I were anywhere near a phone. The
school called the top "emergency" name, and that particular friend
picked my daughter up and brought her home with her. They left messages
at my home, and I picked her up after I got home.

When I lived in Snow Country, it was also clear that those might be the
people they'd call if they had to close school, and were unable to
locate a parent. I imagine the same might be true around here in case
of earthquakes or some other problem that was closing the school down.

Signing the emergency card does NOT give anyone legal authority over the
child; it just says that this person can pick the child up from school
in case of an emergency. You have probably already signed an emergency
medical card -- if there's a medical emergency regarding your child, the
school probably already has the authority to deal with that. (And,
having had children taken to emergency rooms twice now WITHOUT any such
forms being available, I can also assure you that the medical community
provides emergency treatment without looking for the damned forms first,
thanks be.)

I suspect that having an out of town name on that list of contacts is
not useful for the sorts of "gotta send the kid home" emergencies for
which they are intended.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[chiam margalit]

dragonlady > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>
> > chiam margalit > wrote:
> >
> > : Yeah? Tell that to the people marching up and down the streets on
> > : Saturday evenings. I think they'd be surprised. Yes, the Castro is
> > : gay, but so is the mission, and with a different *feel* to it. I spend
> > : plenty of time on the 16th St Hill, and if it isn't one blink from
> > : Christopher St, I don't know what is.
> >
> > We wouldn't be planning the field trip on a Saturday evening, I'm
> > guessing. I know the Mission is changing and there is a "yuppification"
> > factor going on, especially on Valencia Street. But I asked my friend on
> > the phone today if the Mission is a new hot-spot for the gay crowd and he
> > said absolutely not, it is still primarily Hispanic. My friend is gay and
> > gets around to many districts in the City. But there's a huge gay
> > population in San Francisco and I doubt anyone is going to have much
> > success avoiding seeing an openly gay person in the City, no matter where
> > you go.
> >
> > Noreen
> >
> > Post sent Tuesday, August 26, 5:58AM PST
> >
>
> I know this is obvious but feel a need to point out that one would have
> problems avoiding seeing an "openly gay" person anywhere, in any city.
>
> The issue isn't folks who are gay (who look just like anyone else). The
> issue is the people (gay or straight) who choose an appearance that is
> outside what is considered normal. In SF, that will most likely be some
> of the gay men who choose some rather extreme fashion statements. (I
> haven't seen many lesbians who make such extreme statements outside of
> the Pride Parades.)

Ya think? :-) I did mention our first glimpes of penile piercings was
in that neighborhood, didn't I? I did mention it seems to be home to
the 'rough trade' crowd, right? Not my idea of a great place for
second graders to be parading up and down the streets. Noreen
evidentally feels differently. No big surprise there.

Marjorie
>
> meh

[Noreen Cooper]

chiam margalit > wrote:

: Ya think? :-) I did mention our first glimpes of penile piercings was
: in that neighborhood, didn't I? I did mention it seems to be home to
: the 'rough trade' crowd, right? Not my idea of a great place for
: second graders to be parading up and down the streets. Noreen
: evidentally feels differently. No big surprise there.

And the teacher, too. Handed off the flyer to her today with information
on the Mission Mural Tour and she seems quite excited about a possible
field trip this year. I'll make sure and report back to the group if any
penile piercings are sighted at High Noon.

Noreen

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>
>Some other person said (sorry for lack of attribution) that really the
>private schools are the ones that need parent volunteers the most.
>****haw! Our local private school requires two separate tests before a
>student is admitted, no matter how deep your momma or pappa's pockets go.

YMMV.

Yes, some private schools do hand-select their students and end up with
a more homogeneous grouping because of it. Most don't. And most
private schools I know of are indeed more underfunded than the public
schools in the same area. My older children attend one such school.
They depend on parent volunteers, both in and out of the classroom, and
this is made clear to parents investigating the school. Every family
is expected to help in some way, though I expect that if a student
applied from a family where circumstances made this impossible, that
probably wouldn't be held against them in the admissions process. The
dedicated teachers already work way too hard for way too little money;
we help them where we can.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
MarjiG > wrote:
>little paper Santas to cut out (just to tie in the usual arguement
>with this one).


LOL! :-P

--Robyn

[Noreen Cooper]

> Claire Petersky > wrote:
>
> : I took Emma's Camp Fire group (yup, I'm one of those apparently
> : irresponsible and uncaring parents who volunteer through a youth
> : organization, rather than in the classroom)

I'd like to take this opportunity to summarize my observations of this
entire volatile thread.

First of all, this thread began with a request for help. My suggestion
was simply that by contacting a in-class volunteer, the mother would
perhaps get some insight about her child's in-class performance. It
remains the sole constructive suggestion on the table if the mom, for
whatever reason, cannot do the scouting herself.

Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a
mischaracterization by the anti-volunteer partisans. Why? Why the
distortion? Why the rage?

Third, in retrospect, this whole debate seems like another silly way to
argue WP vs. SAH, with in-class volunteerism being a diffused "going back
to work" metaphor. And it especially is hitting a hot button for working
mothers who bring in the "why doesn't my husband get asked to volunteer in
the class" when no one even suggested the mom be forced into that kind of
service to the schools to begin with. People are different, have
different needs, different abilities, let's just admit it and move on
without needing to raise our collective blood pressures.

Noreen

[Iowacookiemom]

wrote:

>First of all, this thread began with a request for help. My suggestion
>was simply that by contacting a in-class volunteer, the mother would
>perhaps get some insight about her child's in-class performance. It
>remains the sole constructive suggestion on the table if the mom, for
>whatever reason, cannot do the scouting herself.

I think you've missed a substantial portion of the early part of the thread,
then. Looking at the posts from the first three days (Aug 19-21) I found
numerous concrete suggestions. Here are some pointers (reduced by tinyurl.com
to make this post readable) in case you missed them. This list is not
exhaustive, but more representative. More importantly, I provide these in case
the OP would like to summarize the excellent advice I believe she received from
several different posters, including (but certainly not limited to by any
stretch) you:

http://tinyurl.com/leec
http://tinyurl.com/leek
http://tinyurl.com/leel
http://tinyurl.com/leen
http://tinyurl.com/leep
http://tinyurl.com/leer
and
http://tinyurl.com/leeu

Since my initial post (the first one on the list) took me quite some time to
write and, by my count, contained a minimum of 7 concrete suggestions, I will
admit that I am personally offended by your assertion.

>Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
>against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
>volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
>you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a
>mischaracterization by the anti-volunteer partisans. Why? Why the
>distortion? Why the rage?

By my research, most of it is in response or further clarification of your own
posts. Of 256 posts in this and related threads, 50 are from you -- or 20%.
Each of your posts sparked more clarification and debate. I expect there would
have been less distortion/rage on both sides if everyone could have agreed to
disagree and didn't need to have the last word.

>Third, in retrospect, this whole debate seems like another silly way to
>argue WP vs. SAH, with in-class volunteerism being a diffused "going back
>to work" metaphor. And it especially is hitting a hot button for working
>mothers who bring in the "why doesn't my husband get asked to volunteer in
>the class" when no one even suggested the mom be forced into that kind of
>service to the schools to begin with. People are different, have
>different needs, different abilities, let's just admit it and move on
>without needing to raise our collective blood pressures.

I'm happy to move on, and would have if your initial statement hadn't been so
personally offensive to me and to other posters who sincerely tried to help.
I've made that clarification now, so the last word can be yours as far as I'm
concerned.

I sincerely hope the OP got some help from the thread, especially in the early
days, and I'd love it if she would post a summary of how her child is doing in
kindergarten now.

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes Noreen Cooper > wrote:

>> Claire Petersky > wrote:
>>
>> : I took Emma's Camp Fire group (yup, I'm one of those apparently
>> : irresponsible and uncaring parents who volunteer through a youth
>> : organization, rather than in the classroom)
>
>I'd like to take this opportunity to summarize my observations of this
>entire volatile thread.
>
>First of all, this thread began with a request for help. My suggestion
>was simply that by contacting a in-class volunteer, the mother would
>perhaps get some insight about her child's in-class performance. It
>remains the sole constructive suggestion on the table if the mom, for
>whatever reason, cannot do the scouting herself.

It wasn't the sole suggestion. It was one of the suggestions - one of
them was to ask the teacher herself.
>
>Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
>against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
>volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
>you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a

You said this yourself. You said if someone did not participate in
some way (with the obvious bias on your part that volunteering in the
classroom was the preferred way to do it) you would judge them. You
have repeated this several times.

>mischaracterization by the anti-volunteer partisans. Why? Why the
>distortion? Why the rage?

The rage was because it is an attitude that is out there among other
school personnel who contrive to make anyone who can't be at school
during the day feel as though they aren't good parents. You were just
the focus of folks who have had this same attitude given them over and
over and they basically were saying "I won't take it anymore".

>
>Third, in retrospect, this whole debate seems like another silly way to
>argue WP vs. SAH, with in-class volunteerism being a diffused "going back
>to work" metaphor. And it especially is hitting a hot button for working
>mothers who bring in the "why doesn't my husband get asked to volunteer in
>the class" when no one even suggested the mom be forced into that kind of
>service to the schools to begin with. People are different, have
>different needs, different abilities, let's just admit it and move on
>without needing to raise our collective blood pressures.

Doesn't make it any better if you say parent instead of mother.
Because the school personnel (again) will suggest that it must be the
mom and not the dad. If you really read what people were writing,
you'd know where the rage comes from. Perfectly understandable IMHO.

grandma Rosalie

[Noreen Cooper]

x-no-archive: yes

"Noreen Cooper" > wrote in message
...

> none of the pro in-class
> volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person
if
> you do not help out as a classroom volunteer."

That's strictly speaking true. The actual quote was:

[Margi G wrote:]

<< I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public
schools is
being a bad citizen. >>

So I still maintain no one has ever said if you do not help out **IN THE
CLASSROOM** you are a bad citizen. There's a big difference. If you do
nothing to help out the schools, you are a bad citizen. If you don't
volunteer in the classroom, you are a bad citizen. Two different
statements completely.

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

x-no-archive:yes

(I'm trying to keep the no archive thingie in for those who are wanting
anonymity in this thread)

gmbeasley wrote:

>Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
>against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
>volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
>you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a

>>You said this yourself. You said if someone did not participate in some
>>way (with the obvious bias on your part that volunteering in the classroom
>>was the preferred way to do it) you would judge them. You have repeated
>>this several times.

(sigh) I have no idea how these leaps of logic occur. I have said
several times on this thread I don't believe everyone *should* help out
in the classroom. Some people are simply not temperamentally well suited
to be around a class of 20 small children, and I can respect that. We
all come with our strengths and differences.

It's been many years since you've been out of teaching. Things have
changed dramatically. Are you in contact with any teachers today, maybe
even someone teaching in an underfunded district? If not, I'd challenge
you to check out your local public school and see if the teachers believe
parents have zero obligation to help out the schools. In fact, if others
are so strong in their conviction, I double dare challenge you all to go
up to your child/ren's teacher tomorrow and tell him/her you have
absolutely zero obligation to help out the schools. And if you don't take
up the challenge, what do you make of your conviction then?

Noreen

[Noreen Cooper]

Rosalie B. > wrote:
: x-no-archive:yes Noreen Cooper > wrote:

: You said this yourself. You said if someone did not participate in
: some way (with the obvious bias on your part that volunteering in the
: classroom was the preferred way to do it) you would judge them. You
: have repeated this several times.

This is what keeps me going, sorry. I have said *several* times that
volunteering in the classroom is NOT for everyone. Because *I* volunteer,
do I need to put myself up as the scapegoat du jour for every parent who
has issues with volunteering in the classroom? Volunteering in the
classroom is one way I give back to the schools but I also donate a
significant amount of money and organize a big event for the kids every
year.

: The rage was because it is an attitude that is out there among other
: school personnel who contrive to make anyone who can't be at school
: during the day feel as though they aren't good parents. You were just
: the focus of folks who have had this same attitude given them over and
: over and they basically were saying "I won't take it anymore".

Errr, well, I think they were saying, "I won't take it anymore" to the
wrong person if it was directed at me. Maybe those parents should go and
talk to the right people if they want results.

Noreen

[Marion Baumgarten]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:

>
>
> So I still maintain no one has ever said if you do not help out **IN THE
> CLASSROOM** you are a bad citizen. There's a big difference. If you do
> nothing to help out the schools, you are a bad citizen. If you don't
> volunteer in the classroom, you are a bad citizen. Two different
> statements completely.
>
> Noreen

I'll reapeat from an earlier post I made:


"My husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy
we
spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
'Nuff said. "

THAT'S what good citizenship is.

Marion Baumgarten

[Penny Gaines]

Noreen Cooper wrote in >:

[snip]
> (sigh) I have no idea how these leaps of logic occur. I have said
> several times on this thread I don't believe everyone *should* help out
> in the classroom. Some people are simply not temperamentally well suited
> to be around a class of 20 small children, and I can respect that. We
> all come with our strengths and differences.
>
> It's been many years since you've been out of teaching. Things have
> changed dramatically. Are you in contact with any teachers today, maybe
> even someone teaching in an underfunded district? If not, I'd challenge
> you to check out your local public school and see if the teachers believe
> parents have zero obligation to help out the schools. In fact, if others
> are so strong in their conviction, I double dare challenge you all to go
> up to your child/ren's teacher tomorrow and tell him/her you have
> absolutely zero obligation to help out the schools. And if you don't take
> up the challenge, what do you make of your conviction then?

This was originally a response to someone else, but it fits much better
here.

The big thing in UK schools at the moment is the production of "home-school
agreements", which basically set out the obligations of the child, the
school and the family.

I've just dug ours out from last year, but there are several on the web as
well, and these ones are short but fairly typical:
http://www.sprotbrough-orchard.doncaster.sch.uk/pages/home_school.htm
http://www.riston.eril.net/formal-school-matters/home_school_agreement.htm

For our local school, the family obligations are to:
- make sure the child arrives at school on time
- make sure the child attends regularly and send a note/telephone if the
child is absent
- attend parent's evenings to dicuss kid's progress
- provide support for homework

There is no mention in any I have seen about the parents helping the school
in any way, other then to back them up in educating the child: the
implied obligation is, as other posters have pointed out, to their child,
not the school.

Other people have said that they choose where they put their volenteer
efforts. When I only had one child at school, I choose to put my
efforts into organisations for pre-school kids, because they were entirely
run by volenteer efforts. The help I gave made a noticeable difference:
literally between keeping the 'parent and toddler group' open and having it
close down.

Personally, I'm really grateful to the two parents who re-started the
cub scout group my son goes to. He gets huge benefits from it, benefits
the school is unable to provide, simply because it is a school. If the
couple felt they had to volenteer at school, and closed the cub group,
the loss to the community would be huge.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Ann Porter > wrote:
>"Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
...
>
>> One that I was surprised they didn't do is to visit the sewage
>> treatment plant, which is just a few blocks from the school. I think
>> the first-grade teacher might do it this year as part of the "liquids
>> and solids" unit---it simply hadn't occured to her, though the plant
>> does do a lot of field trips for more distant schools.
>
>Eww. I realize sewage treatment is very (very) important, but I prefer not
>to think about it, let alone visit the facility where it's done.

I'm with you on that. As a college student, I went with a civil engineering
friend on a tour of the sewers of Paris. Not *my* idea of a fun tourist
attraction.

--Robyn

[Rosalie B.]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>gmbeasley wrote:
>
>>Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
>>against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
>>volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
>>you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a
>
>>>You said this yourself. You said if someone did not participate in some
>>>way (with the obvious bias on your part that volunteering in the classroom
>>>was the preferred way to do it) you would judge them. You have repeated
>>>this several times.
>
>(sigh) I have no idea how these leaps of logic occur. I have said
>several times on this thread I don't believe everyone *should* help out
>in the classroom. Some people are simply not temperamentally well suited

Yes I know you have said that. But the argument is not SOLEY about
helping out in the classroom.

The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:

>>I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
>>schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
>>think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
>>require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
>>benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
>>want to participate.)
>>
>>Maybe you don't think that I "should" expect this. But, in fact, I do.

And then later:

>: Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>:>
>:>Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
>:>might judge you. ;-)

and later still:

>Okay, guilty. Judgemental I'll be. I do believe parents who have
>children in an ailing public school system are *obligated* to help out in
>some way, no matter how small.

So defending yourself by saying that you don't think everyone should
be required to volunteer is not effective because what I object to
(and I suspect others object to) is the idea that a parent should do
something to help schools specifically (rather than elsewhere in the
community) or they are not good parents.

>to be around a class of 20 small children, and I can respect that. We
>all come with our strengths and differences.
>
>It's been many years since you've been out of teaching. Things have
>changed dramatically. Are you in contact with any teachers today, maybe
>even someone teaching in an underfunded district? If not, I'd challenge

I'm in contact with my friends who are currently teaching. And
through my children with the schools where my grandchildren are
attending.

>you to check out your local public school and see if the teachers believe
>parents have zero obligation to help out the schools. In fact, if others
>are so strong in their conviction, I double dare challenge you all to go
>up to your child/ren's teacher tomorrow and tell him/her you have
>absolutely zero obligation to help out the schools. And if you don't take
>up the challenge, what do you make of your conviction then?
>
I think that's a very biased question - like "have you stopped beating
your wife". And for that reason I find it objectionable and your
challenge is equally objectionable.

grandma Rosalie

[Circe]

x-no-archive:yes

"Noreen Cooper" > wrote in message
...
> It's been many years since you've been out of teaching. Things have
> changed dramatically. Are you in contact with any teachers today, maybe
> even someone teaching in an underfunded district? If not, I'd challenge
> you to check out your local public school and see if the teachers believe
> parents have zero obligation to help out the schools. In fact, if others
> are so strong in their conviction, I double dare challenge you all to go
> up to your child/ren's teacher tomorrow and tell him/her you have
> absolutely zero obligation to help out the schools. And if you don't take
> up the challenge, what do you make of your conviction then?
>
Ah, but you see, this is *precisely* what I find objectionable. I don't
*care* whether the teachers think parents are obligated to do something for
the school or not. They can think it all they want, but if they run their
classrooms in the expectation that these obligations will be fulfilled and
they are not, there are going to be *more* problems than if the teachers had
not had any expectations to begin with. In many schools, the majority of
parents CANNOT do anything for the school--they have no time to volunteer
and no extra money to donate. To expect that such parents WILL do something
for the school is a bit like expecting to get Italian food at a Chinese
restaurant--a few Chinese restaurants might have spaghetti on the menu, but
most won't and all your expectations won't change that.

IMO, it is better for schools and teachers to begin with the assumption that
parents will not do one damn thing to help "the school" and to expect
instead that parents will do what they can to support their own child(ren)
in the educational process. As Penny has pointed out, that involves ensuring
your child is well-rested and fed before arriving at school, attending
parent-teacher conferences when scheduled, and supporting/assisting with
homework as needed. That's a *far* cry from doing something "for the
school", although I strongly believe that if all parents did these minimum
things for their children, the schools themselves would see huge benefits.

I understand and appreciate what you're saying about schools being
chronically underfunded these days. It's certainly true in many places.
Notwithstanding, I don't *buy* the idea that the solution is to expect
parents to make up the difference, whether through volunteering or reaching
into their pockets for actual cash. It may well be that volunteerism and
charitable donations are currently essential to keeping many schools afloat,
and I'm not suggesting that people who *choose* to help the schools in these
ways should stop doing so. It's just not a long-term solution. The long-term
solution is to improve school funding and fix the structural inequities that
allow some school districts to have twice as much funding as others.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [17mo] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"...we patiently sat by his door, waiting for it to open so he could tell us
all about who he had met" -- from _Uncle Andy's_ by James Warhola

[Noreen Cooper]

Marion Baumgarten > wrote:


: "My husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy
: we
: spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
: how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
: 'Nuff said. "

: THAT'S what good citizenship is.

Fine. But you do *something* for the schools, as I remember. What set
some people off was my second post on this thread. I'd love for you to
review it.

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=RY63b.
2188%24m03.2184%40nntp-post.primus.ca&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dmisc.kids.moderated%26
ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26hl%3Den

So take everything I said in context, including the phrases:

"I know there are parents who can never physically help out in the
classroom but they help out in many other ways, either by participating in
school fundraisers or by helping the teacher after hours."

"We all do our part."

and...

Regarding *specifically* volunteering in the classroom, "If it's not
your bag, baby (Austin Powers accent), I'm not the one to tell you off
about it."

After saying all those the above, I was simply amazed on how I became the
target of the anti-classroom volunteer contingent. And what was it by
Dawn's count (20% of the entire thread later), I still don't have everyone
convinced of my true position on classroom volunteerism.

Instead, the focus was on:

"Now if you do absolutely nothing to help out your local schools, then I
might judge you. ;-)"

You may find this informative but I have never *once* said how I would
judge people. So all those judgement words in parent's heads which raised
their blood pressures, was coming from somewhere else. And I did get one
post rejected on this thread for attempting to figure it out. So I leave
it to you to figure it out for yourselves.

Noreen

[Beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

Noreen wrote:

>So I still maintain no one has ever said if you do not help out **IN THE
>CLASSROOM** you are a bad citizen. There's a big difference. If you do
>nothing to help out the schools, you are a bad citizen. If you don't
>volunteer in the classroom, you are a bad citizen. Two different
>statements completely.

Very true. Two statements. So what we have here is a paraphrased version of
"You are a bad and uncaring person if you do not do what you can to help public
schools."

That statement is ever so much better, eh? (Hint: Both statements make sweeping
judgments about people you know nothing about.)

Key point: You aren't the arbitrator or what makes folks a good citizen or a
bad one. I can't get my panties in a wad over what you think about how I or
other people do or do not express their civic duty. I do find it interesting,
though, that you express surprise that folks' would react negatively to you.
I've rarely, possibly never, heard the term "judgmental" used as a positive
attribute for anyone.

beeswing

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>Marion Baumgarten > wrote:
>
>
>: "My husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy
>: we
>: spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
>: how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
>: 'Nuff said. "
>
>: THAT'S what good citizenship is.
>
>Fine. But you do *something* for the schools, as I remember.

The point is that if, after considering their family's resources and
how best to allocate them for the good of their family and their
community and, they decided not to do anything for their school, they'd
*still* be good citizens. It's the *consideration* that makes them
good citizens, not the fact that in a particular year that consideration
ended up with them doing "something" for the school as part of their
allocation of their resources.

As much as you are frustrated by people continuing to believe that you
are insisting that everyone volunteer *in the classroom*, others are
increasingly frustrated by your inability to concede that for many good
citizens, "doing something" to help their local (public?) school is not
necessarily part of the equation.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

[Noreen Cooper]

Rosalie B. > wrote:

: The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
: says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
: citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:

:>>I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
:>>schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
:>>think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
:>>require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
:>>benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
:>>want to participate.)

I never said this. I have no idea who did.

Noreen

[Iowacookiemom]

wrote:
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>: The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
>: says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
>: citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:
>
>:>>I do expect parents to contribute to (participate in) their children's
>:>>schools. Both because I think there's a moral obligation, and because I
>:>>think everyone should want to. (My ideal school for my kids would
>:>>require some participation by every parent---not so much to get the
>:>>benefits of that participation, as to keep out the families that don't
>:>>want to participate.)
>
>I never said this. I have no idea who did.
>
>Noreen

It was David who said that. But it doesn't change Rosalie's point, which was
that there were several statements close to the ones you claim weren't made on
this thread.



-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 10

[Inspiringmind]

"Noreen Cooper" > wrote in message
> If your child has not shown this degree of separation anxiety before, I'd
> make sure you volunteer to help out in the classroom ASAP. If for some
> reason you are unable to volunteer during kindergarten hours, seek out
> another parent who volunteers quite regularly in the classroom and ask
> what they perceive to be the problem.


Just wanted to add a comment here. My son's kindergarten teacher has
specifically said that parents should not visit the classroom for one month.
It is hard enough for a child to adjust to a classroom and school and then a
parent being there might make it worse for the child.

Oddly enough, I thought my youngest would have some issues going to school,
he had never been in any day care or pre school, but he seems to be adjusted
well, does his work at school, and behaves well (Even if he is still a lot
rambuncious at home!)

Mary
Mommy to Chris (5) and Alex (7)

[Rosalie B.]

(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:

>In article >,
>MarjiG > wrote:
>>In article >, "Rosalie B."
> writes:
>>
>>>
>>>You've put yourself in the box. It's just an reduction ad absurdum of
>>>your original argument. Someone who doesn't do at least a little is
>>>what you would judge to be a bad parent.
>>
>>I'll bite... Someone who doesn't do what they can to help public schools is
>>being a bad citizen.
>>
>Ok, I'll bite back. Do you mean this to apply only to parents of children
>in the public schools at any given time, or do you mean the entire community?

I don't know what MarjiG meant, but I meant the entire community
should support the schools. Note that she said "what they can" which
is a wide open interpretation - so if all you can do is pay your taxes
then that's all you can do.
>
>I think the community as a whole has an obligation to its public schools.
>BUT I also think there are plenty of other parts of a community that also
>need the community's support, and it seems crazy to me to think that anyone
>would expect every single citizen in the community to "do what they can" to
>help the public schools. We need people who do their "what they can" for
>other institutions as well in order to have a well-rounded community.
>
That's true - My point (and maybe MargiG's also) was that parents
didn't have an obligation to the schools over and above what any
citizen (with or without children in the public schools) would have -
that their obligation was to their child and their child's education.
If that overlapped into also helping the schools in some way then that
was fine, but they were not REQUIRED to do that in order to be
considered a good parent.

>And, for the record, now that my children are in private school, I do
>what I can to help their school, and no longer do anything for the
>public schools (other than supporting them with my tax dollars). I
>know the public schools need my help as much now as they did when my
>kids were there, and I know that children in my community would benefit
>if I helped them. But I have chosen to focus my efforts "closer to
>home" and do what I can for the struggling alternative school which
>happens to be a much better fit for my kids than the public school was.
>
>--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

grandma Rosalie

[just me]

x-no-archive:yes
"Circe" > wrote in message
news:agq3b.7405$n94.1328@fed1read04...
> I understand and appreciate what you're saying about schools being
> chronically underfunded these days. It's certainly true in many places.
> Notwithstanding, I don't *buy* the idea that the solution is to expect
> parents to make up the difference, whether through volunteering or
reaching
> into their pockets for actual cash. It may well be that volunteerism and
> charitable donations are currently essential to keeping many schools
afloat,
> and I'm not suggesting that people who *choose* to help the schools in
these
> ways should stop doing so. It's just not a long-term solution. The
long-term
> solution is to improve school funding and fix the structural inequities
that
> allow some school districts to have twice as much funding as others.


I think that perhaps we, as a society or group of societies, have to expand
our view beyond the schools. There are many services which "we" expect the
County, State, Municipality, Country or other entity to provide us, funded
through tax dollars and/or donations. Many of these services are woefully
underfunded. Some services attempt to make this up with donations through
organizaitons like the United Way, Grants, etc., others do not have that
capability. The services do not meet the needs, get cut year after year,
and everyone points fingers elsewhere, expecting the funding will magically
appear, yet perhaps even voting against the tax increases. Perhaps, just
perhaps, somewhere somehow "we" expected too much, be it in pay for our
services, in services from our governments, or some rather complicated set
of things. This discussion of schools and how funding cuts effect the
service received and the parents and communities is simply the tip of a
large iceberg.

-Aula, being called to diner, excuse me

[Marion Baumgarten]

Noreen Cooper > wrote:

> Marion Baumgarten > wrote:
>
>
> : "My husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy
> : we
> : spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
> : how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
> : 'Nuff said. "
>
> : THAT'S what good citizenship is.
>
> Fine. But you do *something* for the schools, as I remember. What set
> some people off was my second post on this thread. I'd love for you to
> review it.
>
>
Here is the entire exchange:


"> Marion Baumgarten > wrote:
>
> Hmm...I guess paying your property taxes and making sure your kids come
> ready school ready to learn isn't enough.
>
> :Do you ever participate in school fundraisers, Marion? Do you go to
> :parent-teacher meetings each quarter? Have you ever sat in on a PTA
> :meeting? Have you ever participated in a school auction?
>
>Noreen, I'm going to say I don't have to justify my activites to you.
My
>husband and I are prefectly happy with the amount of time and energy we
>spend at our children's schools. We have considered our resources and
>how to best allocate them for the good of our family and our community.
>'Nuff said. (Althoyugh I'm wondering why my husband isn't asked to
>justify his time)
>

This was a subtle (( I guess too subtle) way of saying that your
questions were none of your business. What I do or do not do for the
schools has nothing to do with the underlying issue.


Marion Baumgarten

[Beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Beeswing writes:
> > One nit: I consider "volunteering" voluntary both inside and outside
> > the schools both. It's not whether I'm doing something outside the
> > schools instead of inside them that makes me a "good parent" or a
> > "good citizen." I'm *obligated* to do neither. I can *choose* to do
> > either or both, if I wish.
>
> Just become something is "voluntary", that doesn't mean that it can't
be
> part of good parenting, or good citizenship. E.g., reading books to
> your children is voluntary: you aren't breaking any laws if you don't
> ever do that. But don't you think it might be part of good parenting?

"That doesn't mean it can't be" isn't the same as "that means it
definitely is." I can see how you might believe that it is.

On the other hand, I personally don't believe volunteering and good
parenting are at all tied together. Poor folks in [fill in your favorite
third-world country] can be good parents even if they can just scrape
together a living and don't have the wherewithall to donate or
volunteer. For that matter, I believe that affluent folks can be good
parents and not choose donate or volunteer. I do think it's a Nice Thing
to contribute back to the world in some way, if you can, but I'd never
tell someone else that they "should" do it. That's for them to decide
for themselves. And I wouldn't connect whatever choice they made with
regard to volunteering to their value as a parent.

> Researching the issues and voting in elections is voluntary. But
don't
> you think it might be part of good citizenship?

I again don't like the reverse logic of "don't you think it might be a
part of" seeming to equal "it is a part of." I can see how you might
believe it to be part of being a good citizen. I personally believe
that if one wants to take part in how this country is run, one needs to
vote; and I further believe if one does choose to vote, it's imperative
that that person educate him or herself in what's being voted on. I
think it's a mark of good citizenship, then, to vote knowledgebly or not
at all. There's little worse, in my mind, than a voter who is ignorant
on the issues yet casts his or her ballet anyway. So, clearly, how you
and I see voting with regard to good citizenship differs

These are personal beliefs. The above is just what I happen to believe.
This is what I'm trying to say: If you want to define "being a good
parent to your kid" or "being a good citizen to your country" for
yourself as volunteering or voting, respectively, then that's kewl. If
you want to teach your children the same values, well that's kewl, too.
Where the line keeps being crossed in this thread, in my opinion, is
when people take their personal values of the importance of volunteering
(or whatever it might be) and apply those as a litmus test of other
people's parenting skills or status as good citizen. That just doesn't
make any sense to me.

beeswing

[Kevin Karplus]

I don't really want to add to the volunteering discussion.

I'm basically in agreement with those who say that volunteering is, by
definition, voluntary. I also agree that most of the parents I see
volunteering do it for their kids, rather than more altruistically for
the schools. (I'd say that 95% of my school volunteering effort is to
make the school a better place for my child, though I think that
other kids also benefit.)

I do have one piece of information that bears on previous discussion
about what was expected of parents. In the official "Students',
parents', & guardians' rights and responsibilities, 2003-2004" flier from the
Santa Cruz City Schools, at the end of 4 pages there was a list
of seven "parents' responsibilities". I quote the list in full:

1. monitoring attendance of their children
2. ensuring that homework is completed and turned in on time.
3. encouraging their children to participate in extracurricular and
co-curricular activities.
4. monitoring and regulating the television viewed by their children.
5. working with their children at home in learning activities that
extend classroom learning.
6. volunteering in their children's classroom(s) or for other
school activities.
7. participating in decisions related to the education of their own
children or the total school program as appropriate.

Note: I am not claiming that I agree with this list---just that the
expectation of 'volunteering' has become so much a part of the culture
that no one has questioned this official statement from the school
district.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[chiam margalit]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message >...
> Noreen Cooper > wrote:
> >gmbeasley wrote:
> >
> >>Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
> >>against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
> >>volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
> >>you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a
>
> >>>You said this yourself. You said if someone did not participate in some
> >>>way (with the obvious bias on your part that volunteering in the classroom
> >>>was the preferred way to do it) you would judge them. You have repeated
> >>>this several times.
> >
> >(sigh) I have no idea how these leaps of logic occur. I have said
> >several times on this thread I don't believe everyone *should* help out
> >in the classroom. Some people are simply not temperamentally well suited
>
> Yes I know you have said that. But the argument is not SOLEY about
> helping out in the classroom.
>
> The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
> says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
> citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:
>


Please try and be clear about which Marjorie you're referring to.
Certainly NOT me, and I would never say that in a million bazillion
years.

Marjorie

[MarjiG]

In article >,
(Robyn Kozierok) writes:

>
>Ok, I'll bite back. Do you mean this to apply only to parents of children
>in the public schools at any given time, or do you mean the entire community?

The entire community.
>
>I think the community as a whole has an obligation to its public schools.
>BUT I also think there are plenty of other parts of a community that also
>need the community's support, and it seems crazy to me to think that anyone
>would expect every single citizen in the community to "do what they can" to
>help the public schools. We need people who do their "what they can" for
>other institutions as well in order to have a well-rounded community.

Certainly there are other things that also need support. I can't think of many
that I think are as in need of support from everyone as the public schools.

>
>And, for the record, now that my children are in private school, I do
>what I can to help their school, and no longer do anything for the
>public schools (other than supporting them with my tax dollars). I
>know the public schools need my help as much now as they did when my
>kids were there, and I know that children in my community would benefit
>if I helped them. But I have chosen to focus my efforts "closer to
>home" and do what I can for the struggling alternative school which
>happens to be a much better fit for my kids than the public school was.
>
A lot of people feel this way. The irony being that there is a very real
benefit to a good, public school system that has community support, that
extends to those people who do not have children in the public schools or even
do not have children at all.

Like it or not, all those kids in the public schools will be adults one day.

-Marjorie

[Rosalie B.]

(chiam margalit) wrote:

>"Rosalie B." > wrote in message >...
>> Noreen Cooper > wrote:
>> >gmbeasley wrote:
>> >
>> >>Second, although the thread was highjacked by people with a need to vent
>> >>against the movement to volunteer in class, none of the pro in-class
>> >>volunteers ever made the statement "you are a bad and uncaring person if
>> >>you do not help out as a classroom volunteer." This is a
>>
>> >>>You said this yourself. You said if someone did not participate in some
>> >>>way (with the obvious bias on your part that volunteering in the classroom
>> >>>was the preferred way to do it) you would judge them. You have repeated
>> >>>this several times.
>> >
>> >(sigh) I have no idea how these leaps of logic occur. I have said
>> >several times on this thread I don't believe everyone *should* help out
>> >in the classroom. Some people are simply not temperamentally well suited
>>
>> Yes I know you have said that. But the argument is not SOLEY about
>> helping out in the classroom.
>>
>> The problem is that people keep quoting Marjorie's response where she
>> says that someone who doesn't help the public schools is being a bad
>> citizen and the REAL problem post was yours where you said:
>>
>
>
>Please try and be clear about which Marjorie you're referring to.
>Certainly NOT me, and I would never say that in a million bazillion
>years.
>
>Marjorie

I'm sorry - I do get the two of you mixed up - the Marjorie who said
that was "MarjiG" > who signs herself -Marjorie
I was going to write MarjiG and then I thought that sounded sort of
rude - like using someone's nickname before you are a friend.

Is Marjorie that common a name? I've known more people named Rosalie
which I think of as an uncommon name than I have people named
Marjorie. I can't even think of one Marjorie that I know.

grandma Rosalie

[Beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

MarjiG wrote:

>Certainly there are other things that also need support. I can't think of
>many that I think are as in need of support from everyone as the public
>schools.

For what it's worth, among the organizations I support are CARE, Doctor's
Without Borders, the American Red Cross, and UNICEF. These groups tend to
provide for needs that are basic to survival. Education in the U.S. is a luxury
compared with not knowing where you are going to get your next cup of clean
water.

I believe it's important to put things into perspective.

beeswing

[David desJardins]

Marjorie aka (chiam margalit) writes:
> Please try and be clear about which Marjorie you're referring to.
> Certainly NOT me, and I would never say that in a million bazillion
> years.

The problem is that I try to refer to people the way they prefer to be
called. Usually that's how they sign their postings (at the bottom).
When several people all sign their postings "Marjorie", that's how I
refer to them. If you want to be called something else, the best way to
indicate what that is, imho, is for you to put the name or handle that
you want to use as a signature at the bottom of your posting.

I used to use the name in the header, but people complain because it's
not always a name that they chose or want to use.

David desJardins

[Penny Gaines]

Rosalie B. wrote in >:

> I'm sorry - I do get the two of you mixed up - the Marjorie who said
> that was "MarjiG" > who signs herself -Marjorie
> I was going to write MarjiG and then I thought that sounded sort of
> rude - like using someone's nickname before you are a friend.

My feeling is that the name people use is probably the right name -
eg "Chiam Margalit" and MarjiG are referring to specific individuals.
It avoids confusion.

> Is Marjorie that common a name? I've known more people named Rosalie
> which I think of as an uncommon name than I have people named
> Marjorie. I can't even think of one Marjorie that I know.

You are the only Rosalie I know, but I've known other people called
Marjorie.

FWIW, one of my daughters' has her name spelt in a way that is reasonably
common in the UK, but seems unknown in the US. The other has a name that
is rare in the UK, but much commoner in the US. (The names are Isobel and
Jocelyn. The latter gets very frustrated that we *never* see anything
personalised with her name, whereas there are often things personalised
with her big sister's names.)

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[chiam margalit]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message >...

>
> I'm sorry - I do get the two of you mixed up - the Marjorie who said
> that was "MarjiG" > who signs herself -Marjorie
> I was going to write MarjiG and then I thought that sounded sort of
> rude - like using someone's nickname before you are a friend.
>
> Is Marjorie that common a name? I've known more people named Rosalie
> which I think of as an uncommon name than I have people named
> Marjorie. I can't even think of one Marjorie that I know.
>
> grandma Rosalie


Marjorie is certainly not an uncommon name and I know plenty of them.
I've never known a Rosalie IRL.

Marjorie