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Robyn Kozierok
September 24th 03, 09:57 PM
I know we have a number of Palm users here, so....
does anyone track their kids' allowance on their Palm Pilot?

I've decided to stop giving my kids physical money for their
allowance, and just track their accounts in my Palm. They
usually don;t have their money with them when they want it
anyhow, so this is much easier. Right now I am just using
a spreadsheet in Documents to Go, but I'd really like something
that automatically adds the pre-set amount each week for us.
Does anyone have a good method or piece of software to do this?

Thanks,
--Robyn

Nathan Jones
September 25th 03, 02:31 AM
Robyn Kozierok wrote:
>does anyone track their kids' allowance on their Palm Pilot?
>
>...I'd really like something
>that automatically adds the pre-set amount each week for us.

There are several programs that could be adapted for this: some are
designed to keep track of money in accounts (eg. Visa, savings, cheque)
and some are budgeting programs.

The only one I am familiar with is Quik Budget (USD 19.99):
http://quiksense.com/QuikBudget/

It has "wallets" allowing you to split a budget into various categories,
each with a particular amount being added to it each payday.

Set up one wallet for each kid and you'll see:

Name Budget Remain
Ryan 20 5
Matthew 10 15
Evan 10 80

Each payday (set it weekly), the remaining funds in each wallet are
increased by the budget amount. When you hand over some cash or buy
something for them, tap on the name to add an expense (deduction).

You can also set up automatic overflow into a different wallet when a
certain limit is reached. Eg. you could edit the Evan wallet and say
"send to Evan-Savings if over 250"...

--
Nathan Jones

Scott Lindstrom
September 25th 03, 11:30 AM
Nathan Jones wrote:
> Robyn Kozierok wrote:
>
>>does anyone track their kids' allowance on their Palm Pilot?
>>
>>...I'd really like something
>>that automatically adds the pre-set amount each week for us.
>
>
> There are several programs that could be adapted for this: some are
> designed to keep track of money in accounts (eg. Visa, savings, cheque)
> and some are budgeting programs.
>
> The only one I am familiar with is Quik Budget (USD 19.99):
> http://quiksense.com/QuikBudget/
>
> It has "wallets" allowing you to split a budget into various categories,
> each with a particular amount being added to it each payday.
>
> Set up one wallet for each kid and you'll see:
>
> Name Budget Remain
> Ryan 20 5
> Matthew 10 15
> Evan 10 80
>
> Each payday (set it weekly), the remaining funds in each wallet are
> increased by the budget amount. When you hand over some cash or buy
> something for them, tap on the name to add an expense (deduction).
>
> You can also set up automatic overflow into a different wallet when a
> certain limit is reached. Eg. you could edit the Evan wallet and say
> "send to Evan-Savings if over 250"...

I don't like this, so I won't be doing it :)

Call me a Luddite, but one of the things *I* really liked
about getting an allowance was, er, *getting* the allowance --
having it handed to me so I could hold the money actually
in my hand and all.

I also don't like the fact that Mom or Dad has to keep track
of how much money a child has to spend. I think the
ability to keep track on your own of how much money you
have without having another person tell you is a good
life skill. It also would caused problems for me for
the kids always to have access to their allowance. It's
a nice out to say to DD or DS that they can't buy
something right now because they left their allowance
at home.

Of course, we don't have a cell-phone either.

From the 20th century... ;)

Scott DD 10 and DS 7

Louise
September 25th 03, 08:16 PM
On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:30:33 EDT, Scott Lindstrom
> wrote:

>Nathan Jones wrote:
>> Robyn Kozierok wrote:
>>
>>>does anyone track their kids' allowance on their Palm Pilot?

>Call me a Luddite, but one of the things *I* really liked
>about getting an allowance was, er, *getting* the allowance --
>having it handed to me so I could hold the money actually
>in my hand and all.
>
>I also don't like the fact that Mom or Dad has to keep track
>of how much money a child has to spend.

Being the devil's advocate here ... what do you do if your kids don't
have their money with them, but want an impulse buy? Does it depend
on whether you think the purchase is a good idea? What if it's near
the end of the month or the end of the week (whatever their allowance
period is) so they won't have the money until Saturday, but really
want to buy a souvenir today?

I agree with you that having the physical money helps in understanding
budgeting. Heck, when I was a grad student, I used to do that myself
-- get $50 cash for the week rather than use credit and debit. Our
kids got cash once a month from about age 6 to late elementary school,
and then got cheques for a couple of years, but there was an awful lot
of lending money because they didn't have it with them, not
remembering to give them the allowance on the 1st and trying to work
it out in a museum gift shop three days later, lending money to cover
the time until the cheque cleared, or lending money at the end of the
month. Now they get/got their allowance by automatic deposit to their
bank accounts, and they do/did more than half their spending by debit
card. At least one of them would have preferred cash, but both of
them appreciated having it appear on time without having to remind the
parents or wait for them to have the right cash on hand.

Aside 1: Hurray for banks that don't levy service charges on
children!

Aside 2: Our elder has been away at college for a little less than a
month, and I'm not used to that yet. Hence the odd grammatical
construction.

Louise

Kevin Karplus
September 25th 03, 08:17 PM
In article >,
Scott Lindstrom wrote:
> Call me a Luddite, but one of the things *I* really liked
> about getting an allowance was, er, *getting* the allowance --
> having it handed to me so I could hold the money actually
> in my hand and all.
>
> I also don't like the fact that Mom or Dad has to keep track
> of how much money a child has to spend. I think the
> ability to keep track on your own of how much money you
> have without having another person tell you is a good
> life skill. It also would caused problems for me for
> the kids always to have access to their allowance. It's
> a nice out to say to DD or DS that they can't buy
> something right now because they left their allowance
> at home.

My 7-year-old son gets a monthly cash allowance. He values it much
more than his bank account, which has much more money in it. He can't
count the money in the bank, lay the bills out flat, or run out to the
ice cream man with with his bank account. (We have limited him buying
popsicles only on Sundays, but we made the argument on nutritional,
not financial grounds---his allowance is his money to spend, save, or
waste as he chooses.)

It seems to me that having a parent act as the wallet and the banker
defeats much of the purpose of an allowance, which is to have the
child learn to handle money and budgeting themselves.

When my son wants to buy something, but does not have his wallet with
him, I will sometimes offer him a loan (if I approve of the purchase).
The loans are interest-free, but I expect him to pay me back as soon
as we get home. This has worked out fairly well, allowing him the
freedom of not having to keep track of his wallet all the time, while
still making it very clear when he is buying something for himself,
rather than having me buy something for him.

> Of course, we don't have a cell-phone either.

Neither do we---they seem to be more of a nuisance and expense than
they are worth. They are also a major hazard for bicyclists and
pedestrians, because they distract drivers from paying attention to
where they are going---but that is not really a topic for this
newsgroup.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

David desJardins
September 25th 03, 09:04 PM
I think about 99% of the "money" that I spend is electronic debits of
one form or another, not physical cash. My children will grow up into a
world where that percentage is even higher. It seems a good thing, to
me, for them NOT to be dependent on physical possession of money in
order to make purchasing decisions or apply budget constraints. That
seems like the path that leads to overspending as soon as children get
their own credit cards and bank accounts.

David desJardins

Carol Hulls
September 25th 03, 10:09 PM
In article >,
Kevin Karplus > wrote:
>When my son wants to buy something, but does not have his wallet with
>him, I will sometimes offer him a loan (if I approve of the purchase).
>The loans are interest-free, but I expect him to pay me back as soon
>as we get home. This has worked out fairly well, allowing him the
>freedom of not having to keep track of his wallet all the time, while
>still making it very clear when he is buying something for himself,
>rather than having me buy something for him.

We use a variation of this in our household. The bank of Mom and Dad
has issued each child a virtual credit card. The limit is their
weekly allowance and the card must be paid off each week. So if a
wallet is left at home, or they want something that will cost more
than what they have on hand based on their allowance savings, they can
use credit up to their limit. So far it has worked well, getting us
past problems with the kids wanting souvenirs, etc. at places. They
have also been fairly cautious about using the credit once each got
over the initial shock of being handed the cash for their allowance
one week and then having to give almost all of it back to pay off their
credit card debt.

I figure the reason we are giving the kids an allowance is to learn
how to handle money. Nowadays they have to learn how to handle credit
as well, so having a virtual credit card makes sense.

Carol Hulls

Robyn Kozierok
September 25th 03, 10:39 PM
In article >,
Scott Lindstrom > wrote:
>
>I don't like this, so I won't be doing it :)
>
>Call me a Luddite, but one of the things *I* really liked
>about getting an allowance was, er, *getting* the allowance --
>having it handed to me so I could hold the money actually
>in my hand and all.

My kids actually don't seem to care about that part.

>It also would caused problems for me for
>the kids always to have access to their allowance. It's
>a nice out to say to DD or DS that they can't buy
>something right now because they left their allowance
>at home.

Hmm, I'd never say that. I don't expect my kids to carry
their money with them. If they see something they want to
buy, I ask if they want to spend their own money on it, and
if they have enough. If so, I lend them the money.

However, I am really bad about remembering to pay them and
about having correct change available, and equally bad at
remembering to collect when I lend small amounts of money.

So far they really like having their total kept in my palm.
They can ask for a balance anytime they want. They have
budget categories that they distribute their allowances into,
and I track all that on my palm, so they can find out how much
they have in any category. It's like having it in the bank,
basically, but easier to get out to spend when they want it.
(They do each have bank accounts where they sock away larger
amounts of "saving" money until they think of something to
spend it on, and we'll still have them do that as well.)
Bank of Mom.

--Robyn

Jeff
September 26th 03, 04:28 AM
I think you can get quicken or MS Money for PDAs.

However, a spread should work just fine.

chiam margalit
September 26th 03, 11:50 AM
Scott Lindstrom > wrote in message >...

>
> I don't like this, so I won't be doing it :)
>
> Call me a Luddite, but one of the things *I* really liked
> about getting an allowance was, er, *getting* the allowance --
> having it handed to me so I could hold the money actually
> in my hand and all.
>
> I also don't like the fact that Mom or Dad has to keep track
> of how much money a child has to spend. I think the
> ability to keep track on your own of how much money you
> have without having another person tell you is a good
> life skill. It also would caused problems for me for
> the kids always to have access to their allowance. It's
> a nice out to say to DD or DS that they can't buy
> something right now because they left their allowance
> at home.
>
I'm no luddite, I've got a Palm and my son has my old one. :-) But I
absolutely hate this idea too, for another reason. One of the great
things about having an allowance you can hold in your hands is that
learning experience called "vicarious thrills spending". You know,
when you are in the grocery store and see some stupid toy you know mom
won't buy you, but you absolutely HAVE to have...

If your mom is keeping your money, you're much less likely to spend
your money unwisely, and isn't the *point* of having an allowance
learning how to handle money without parental interference? I don't
see why a child of 10 can't carry his own wallet with his own money.
If he doesn't have it with him when the urge to buy a snickers comes
upon him, then he doesn't get the snickers. Lesson learned about
planning ahead.

I really don't like the idea of parents interfering in any way with
allowance. If the money is the kids, then they get to do with it what
they will within reason. Once a parent has a say in it, even if the
say is, "You ought to think about this because you're saving for that
new dvd, REMEMBER???", then the whole point of learning financial
responsibility is lost.

FWIW, my kids are pretty much spendthrifts, but they're combining
their savings because they believe they are going to buy a TV/DVD
player for their floor of our house. Over my dead body, but the saving
continues unabated with the desire intact. I'm curious to see how much
they can accumulate and it's a riot to see them beg to hit the grocery
store so they can use the coinstar machine. :-) (Yes, I know there is
a fee, but it's worth it to reduce the fighting to a minimum.)

Marjorie


> Of course, we don't have a cell-phone either.
>
> From the 20th century... ;)
>
> Scott DD 10 and DS 7

Scott Lindstrom
September 26th 03, 01:41 PM
In article >, Louise
> wrote:

> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 06:30:33 EDT, Scott Lindstrom
> > wrote:
>
> >Nathan Jones wrote:
> >> Robyn Kozierok wrote:
> >>
> >>>does anyone track their kids' allowance on their Palm Pilot?
>
> >Call me a Luddite, but one of the things *I* really liked
> >about getting an allowance was, er, *getting* the allowance --
> >having it handed to me so I could hold the money actually
> >in my hand and all.
> >
> >I also don't like the fact that Mom or Dad has to keep track
> >of how much money a child has to spend.
>
> Being the devil's advocate here ... what do you do if your kids don't
> have their money with them, but want an impulse buy? Does it depend
> on whether you think the purchase is a good idea? What if it's near
> the end of the month or the end of the week (whatever their allowance
> period is) so they won't have the money until Saturday, but really
> want to buy a souvenir today?

I usually ask them if they have their money. If they
don't they ask if I'll buy it for them, and I say no.
End of discussion. Rarely they will ask if they can
borrow money, and I'll agree, although I always charge
interest, so they really have to want something.
I also pay interest when I borrow money from my kids.
If it's the end of the month and they want something
but have no money, tough. Usually they don't even
ask if there's no money in their wallet -- DS in
particular spends all his money (Bionicle Boy) as
soon as he gets it.

Scott DD 10 and DS 7

Scott Lindstrom
September 26th 03, 01:46 PM
In article >, David desJardins
> wrote:

> I think about 99% of the "money" that I spend is electronic debits of
> one form or another, not physical cash. My children will grow up into a
> world where that percentage is even higher. It seems a good thing, to
> me, for them NOT to be dependent on physical possession of money in
> order to make purchasing decisions or apply budget constraints. That
> seems like the path that leads to overspending as soon as children get
> their own credit cards and bank accounts.

Maybe. But I *always* know how much cash is in
my wallet [Usually none ;) ] ... I have no clue
how much $$ is in the bank.

David desJardins
September 26th 03, 06:03 PM
Scott Lindstrom writes:
> Maybe. But I *always* know how much cash is in my wallet [Usually
> none ;) ] ... I have no clue how much $$ is in the bank.

That sounds like a very strong argument in favor of your parents doing
something differently.

I know much more accurately how much money I have in the bank (i.e.,
within a few percent) than how much money is in my wallet (not
infrequently, I'm surprised to look in my wallet and have no money).
And I think that's really good, because the former is also much more
important than the latter. If I run out of money in my wallet, it's no
big deal; it's just a temporary short-term inconvenience. If I run out
of money in the bank, I can't pay my bills! I don't want my kids to
have a psychological difficulty understanding that the money in the bank
is just as real as the money in their wallet. This discussion is
convincing me more and more of the value of teaching them to handle
electronic accounts at an early age.

David desJardins

Robyn Kozierok
September 28th 03, 12:49 AM
In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:
>
>I really don't like the idea of parents interfering in any way with
>allowance. If the money is the kids, then they get to do with it what
>they will within reason.

I'm the one who wanted to track my kids' money on my palm, but I don't
interfere with their use of it. If they have money in their account,
they can spend it on whatever they want. Ask Matthew, who routinely
"wastes" (IMO) his allowance on a claw machine I've tried to convince
him he will probably never win.

I've never really encouraged them to carry their cash with them, but
my palm is always on me, so it makes spending more convenient for them.

--Robyn

Rosalie B.
September 28th 03, 03:45 AM
(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:

>In article >,
>Scott Lindstrom > wrote:
>>
>>I don't like this, so I won't be doing it :)
>>
>>Call me a Luddite, but one of the things *I* really liked
>>about getting an allowance was, er, *getting* the allowance --
>>having it handed to me so I could hold the money actually
>>in my hand and all.
>
>My kids actually don't seem to care about that part.

I think there are at least two different kinds of learning to be done with
allowances. One is budgeting and one is keeping track of money. If you do
the keeping track for them on the Palm, then they are not learning the
skill of keeping track because you are doing it for them, and you are also
not making them budget.

>
>>It also would caused problems for me for
>>the kids always to have access to their allowance. It's
>>a nice out to say to DD or DS that they can't buy
>>something right now because they left their allowance
>>at home.
>
>Hmm, I'd never say that. I don't expect my kids to carry
>their money with them. If they see something they want to
>buy, I ask if they want to spend their own money on it, and
>if they have enough. If so, I lend them the money.
>
>However, I am really bad about remembering to pay them and
>about having correct change available, and equally bad at
>remembering to collect when I lend small amounts of money.

So how did your parents handle this? Why are you so bad about remembering
to pay them?

>
>So far they really like having their total kept in my palm.
>They can ask for a balance anytime they want. They have
>budget categories that they distribute their allowances into,
>and I track all that on my palm, so they can find out how much
>they have in any category. It's like having it in the bank,
>basically, but easier to get out to spend when they want it.
>(They do each have bank accounts where they sock away larger
>amounts of "saving" money until they think of something to
>spend it on, and we'll still have them do that as well.)
>Bank of Mom.
>
>--Robyn

What possibility would there be of having them do their own allowances on
your Palm? I think that would help them learn to keep track, so that they
would KNOW whether they had money and wouldn't have to ask you if they had
any.

I'd say that if they have large amounts in the bank waiting until they can
think of something to spend it on, then they have too much money, except
that I did that too when I was a kid. I accumulated my allowance and
rarely spent any of it. I'm still kind of like that. I don't use ATM
machines except that I got an emergency ATM card before i went to England,
and tried it to see if it worked.

I found when I was in college (my mom gave me $100 in TC to take with me
for misc. expenses) that once I cashed a TC it evaporated. So if I could
hold onto it without cashing it, it helped me not to spend money on
frivolous things. I do the same thing now except I get $20 bills and hide
them from myself so it takes a significant effort to cash one. I know I'm
probably peculiar in this respect, but that's the way it works for me.

grandma Rosalie

Mary Gordon
September 28th 03, 09:50 PM
My problem with that system is that YOU are doing the tracking as
opposed to the kid doing the tracking. My oldest two are 12 and 9
respectively, and they hoard every nicket and pool it to buy new video
games. You would not believe the horse trading that goes on, as they
count and recount their cash and figure out how much more they need,
how long it will take them save up, what extra chores they can do to
earn a few more bucks, how much they can get for a trade in on old
games etc. etc. They almost never just totally blow money on treats,
since they are so focussed on saving up for some game. It may be low
tech, but its Money Management 101 at its finest.

When I was in my early teens (back in the 70's) my parents started me
on an annual allowance. We sat down and figured out a budget together
that included clothing, entertainment, bus and lunch money, books for
school - everything we could think of. And then they GAVE me the big
wad of cash and an account book. I had to keep track of everything I
spent. I could ask for more money, but I had to be able to demonstrate
where all the money went and why I needed more (i.e. prices had gone
up, we'd forgotten to include something in the budget, something
unanticipated had come up like a school trip (mostly to help me get
thinking of all the things I needed to include in a budget). I know
this wouldn't work for every kid, but it was great for me. The best
lesson was that I'd get handed what seemed like a huge amount of money
(a few hundred dollars back then) and would be amazed to find it
didn't go that far when you added up everything even a teen needed
money for.

Mary G.

chiam margalit
September 29th 03, 11:17 AM
(Mary Gordon) wrote in message >...
> My problem with that system is that YOU are doing the tracking as
> opposed to the kid doing the tracking. My oldest two are 12 and 9
> respectively, and they hoard every nicket and pool it to buy new video
> games. You would not believe the horse trading that goes on, as they
> count and recount their cash and figure out how much more they need,
> how long it will take them save up, what extra chores they can do to
> earn a few more bucks, how much they can get for a trade in on old
> games etc. etc. They almost never just totally blow money on treats,
> since they are so focussed on saving up for some game. It may be low
> tech, but its Money Management 101 at its finest.

I totally agree! What really blows me away with this system is that my
kids are starting to be really good consumers, too. For example, we
had to go clothes shopping for my daughter, who conveniently outgrew
*all* her shul clothing right before the high holidays. At Old Navy
there were two soda machines and she started whining about how thirsty
she was, but my solid rule is, NEVER ANY SODA FROM MACHINES. Never!
Talk about overpriced junk food! So, she say she has her own money and
saunters over to the machine, where she sees they're selling cans of
soda for $1.75 a can. She's *outraged* and can't believe what a ripoff
that is. :-) :-) Like for 11 years I've been saying this to no avail
but once it's *her* money, the lesson sinks in! :-)
>
> When I was in my early teens (back in the 70's) my parents started me
> on an annual allowance. We sat down and figured out a budget together
> that included clothing, entertainment, bus and lunch money, books for
> school - everything we could think of. And then they GAVE me the big
> wad of cash and an account book. I had to keep track of everything I
> spent. I could ask for more money, but I had to be able to demonstrate
> where all the money went and why I needed more (i.e. prices had gone
> up, we'd forgotten to include something in the budget, something
> unanticipated had come up like a school trip (mostly to help me get
> thinking of all the things I needed to include in a budget). I know
> this wouldn't work for every kid, but it was great for me. The best
> lesson was that I'd get handed what seemed like a huge amount of money
> (a few hundred dollars back then) and would be amazed to find it
> didn't go that far when you added up everything even a teen needed
> money for.

I'm very interested in those new loadable credit cards for the kids
once they get a bit older. I haven't investigated them carefully yet,
but the idea seems great: you get a credit card and load it up with a
set amount of money, and they carry it around and use it for what they
want without having to carry a lot of cash. I think that's safer, plus
I like the idea of not having ready cash for trash like those horrible
teen magazines. Has anyone tried one of these or investigated them? I
think they're similar to prepaid cell phones, another item I'm
considering.

Marjorie
>
> Mary G.

Robyn Kozierok
September 29th 03, 03:57 PM
In article >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>I think there are at least two different kinds of learning to be done with
>allowances. One is budgeting and one is keeping track of money. If you do
>the keeping track for them on the Palm, then they are not learning the
>skill of keeping track because you are doing it for them, and you are also
>not making them budget.

I am indeed making them budget. My kids have several budget
categories, and I track them all separately for them. At first, I set
the portions of the allowance that go into the different budget
categories (so I get them used to the concept of a budget, but they
don't set the budget) but after they have some idea of how the
different categories work, they are free to change their budget amounts
around.

I'm not sure what separate skill you are referring to as "keeping track
of money" -- are you talking about physically knowing where they put
it? Or just knowing how much they have at any time. They can request
a balance from the Bank of Mom anytime, and we also go through their
totals each week at allowance time, so they have a pretty good handle
on that aspect of "keeping track".

I'm surprised by the level of resistance to this idea, frankly. I don't
carry all my cash with me, but I keep track of how much we have and
when I want to make a purchase use a credit card (we get cash back and
other benefits on the credit cards and pay them off fully every months,
so I use it for convenience and the benefits they provide, not to go
into debt to buy things). So, why would I expect my kids to carry all
their cash with them so they'll have it to buy things they want. We usually
do our shopping/errands after school, and they don't need money for anything
at school, so it seems silly for them to carry it with them. Instead of
carrying a debit or credit card, which seems inappropriate at 7 and 10yo,
they use a virtual debit card against their palm bank balances. Why is
that so odd and upsetting to so many people?

>So how did your parents handle this? Why are you so bad about remembering
>to pay them?

They were bad about remembering to pay too. When we remembered, we'd try
to figure out how many weeks they'd missed and how much they owed us. That
is what I used to do too. But why not take advantage of the technology that
exists to help us keep track of things.

>What possibility would there be of having them do their own allowances on
>your Palm? I think that would help them learn to keep track, so that they
>would KNOW whether they had money and wouldn't have to ask you if they had
>any.

They'd have to ask to use my palm to do it anyhow, so I don't see the
benefit. They do have their balances memorized anyhow; I'm the one who
confirms whether they have enough when they decide to make a withdrawal.
And if they lose track, they can just ask me to show them, just as they
could have in prior generations gone to count the cash.

>I'd say that if they have large amounts in the bank waiting until they can
>think of something to spend it on, then they have too much money, except
>that I did that too when I was a kid. I accumulated my allowance and
>rarely spent any of it.

They like big expensive lego sets, mostly. My 7yo just spent $80 on a
remote-controlled lego stunt car that's way cool :) But he didn't save
$80 on his own -- he got a $50 gift to jump-start him and that
encouraged him to save long enough to get the item he wanted. My 10yo
is more opportunistic. He saves gifts and allowance money knowing that
eventually he will see something he'll really wants, and not want to
have to wait to save up for it. Seems like a perfectly reasonable plan
to me. We (DH and I) save discretionary money not necessarily knowing
what we will spend it on in advance as well.

--Robyn

Robyn Kozierok
September 29th 03, 03:58 PM
In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:
>
>I really don't like the idea of parents interfering in any way with
>allowance. If the money is the kids, then they get to do with it what
>they will within reason. Once a parent has a say in it, even if the
>say is, "You ought to think about this because you're saving for that
>new dvd, REMEMBER???", then the whole point of learning financial
>responsibility is lost.
>

I disagree with you on this point. I do do things like this with my
kids when they are starting out with their allowance (whether cash or
virtual). I think reminding them *at first* that if they spend the
money now, they'll be disappointed when their savings for something
larger don't increase, helps them learn the financial responsibility
more easily. I don't do this anymore with my 10yo, who has long since
learned to manage his own money admirably, but I do do it with my 7yo,
who is still just learning. It's still 100% his decision, but I do
insert some teaching as well. It hasn't been my experience that
throwing them into budgeting and money management with no guidance is
necessary to the development of good money management skills.


--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

Robyn Kozierok
September 29th 03, 04:34 PM
In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:
>
>I totally agree! What really blows me away with this system is that my
>kids are starting to be really good consumers, too. For example, we
>had to go clothes shopping for my daughter, who conveniently outgrew
>*all* her shul clothing right before the high holidays. At Old Navy
>there were two soda machines and she started whining about how thirsty
>she was, but my solid rule is, NEVER ANY SODA FROM MACHINES. Never!
>Talk about overpriced junk food! So, she say she has her own money and
>saunters over to the machine, where she sees they're selling cans of
>soda for $1.75 a can. She's *outraged* and can't believe what a ripoff
>that is. :-) :-) Like for 11 years I've been saying this to no avail
>but once it's *her* money, the lesson sinks in! :-)

I don't see how this is any different for my kids. They want a soda, I
won't buy it for them, they ask to use their own money and I ask how
much they need and give it to them (if they still want it after seeing
the price). It's not carrying their own money that makes them cautious
about spending it, it's the fact that once they spend it, they won't
have it for something else, a fact they can grasp just fine without
holding the coins/bills in their hot little hands. (We're not talking
about the 2yo here; he doesn't get an allowance at all yet.)

If they ever saw that a can of soda was $1.75 they would be outraged as
well and decline to spend that much of their own money. They're pretty
thrifty, and they know what the junk foods they like "should" cost (but
they're not soda drinkers; that's my vice). Of course, I've *never*
seen a soda machine *that* outrageously priced! Cans are 40 to 75
cents here, bottles often as much as $1. Even in places like amusement
parks and airports, I don't think I've ever seen $1.75 for a can! ouch!!
I've been known to buy a nice cold coke for myself from a machine for 50
cents, even though that is more than buying it in a case in the grocery
store. Some days it's definitely worth it ;-).

>
>I'm very interested in those new loadable credit cards for the kids
>once they get a bit older. I haven't investigated them carefully yet,
>but the idea seems great: you get a credit card and load it up with a
>set amount of money, and they carry it around and use it for what they
>want without having to carry a lot of cash. I think that's safer, plus
>I like the idea of not having ready cash for trash like those horrible
>teen magazines.


Why not just get them debit cards on their own bank accounts? It sounds
like the same concept, really, unless there are charges associated with
one and not the other.

But I don't see how either would translate to not having ready cash for
teen magazines. Couldn't they just use the card to buy them? And I
thought you didn't believe in exerting any influence over how your kids
spent their own money anyhow. This sounds like you now do want to
discourage certain types of purchases.

--Robyn

Rosalie B.
September 29th 03, 07:05 PM
(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:

>In article >,
>Rosalie B. > wrote:
>>
>>I think there are at least two different kinds of learning to be done with
>>allowances. One is budgeting and one is keeping track of money. If you do
>>the keeping track for them on the Palm, then they are not learning the
>>skill of keeping track because you are doing it for them, and you are also
>>not making them budget.
>
>I am indeed making them budget. My kids have several budget
>categories, and I track them all separately for them. At first, I set
>the portions of the allowance that go into the different budget
>categories (so I get them used to the concept of a budget, but they
>don't set the budget) but after they have some idea of how the
>different categories work, they are free to change their budget amounts
>around.

THat's only something that has come out recently - I'm pretty sure I didn't
know about that when I wrote my original post or I wouldn't have said that
they weren't learning to budget.

I will say that when I had my allowance 'budgeted' for me by my mom, it
wasn't *really* mine. I had my church money, Girl Scout dues, savings and
some other required categories, and that money wasn't really discretionary.
So I didn't ever save up FOR anything, because I didn't have but about 10
cents a week (which was more then than it is now, but still wasn't much)
extra. I remember getting a nickel candy bar (turkish taffy) sometimes on
the way home from school, but I can't remember ever doing anything else
with my allowance.
>
>I'm not sure what separate skill you are referring to as "keeping track
>of money" -- are you talking about physically knowing where they put
>it? Or just knowing how much they have at any time.

Just knowing how much they have more than where they put it.

>They can request
>a balance from the Bank of Mom anytime, and we also go through their
>totals each week at allowance time, so they have a pretty good handle
>on that aspect of "keeping track".

Well requesting a balance means to me that they don't know what it is
without asking.

>I'm surprised by the level of resistance to this idea, frankly. I don't

I was too actually. And I'm not absolutely against it, but I saw some
pitfalls when I read the initial posts.

>carry all my cash with me, but I keep track of how much we have and
>when I want to make a purchase use a credit card (we get cash back and
>other benefits on the credit cards and pay them off fully every months,
>so I use it for convenience and the benefits they provide, not to go
>into debt to buy things). So, why would I expect my kids to carry all

I don't carry much cash with me either. When I was working, I used to keep
$100 on hand mostly in case my vehicle got towed so I could get it out of
the impound lot (which never happened) because they wouldn' t take a check
or a credit card.

I use my credit cards the same way you do, and keep track of my bank
balance in my checkbook. I wasn't suggesting that the kids carry all their
cash with them, although if they are responsible I think the skill of
carrying a bit of cash without losing it is one that needs to be gained.

>their cash with them so they'll have it to buy things they want. We usually
>do our shopping/errands after school, and they don't need money for anything
>at school, so it seems silly for them to carry it with them. Instead of
>carrying a debit or credit card, which seems inappropriate at 7 and 10yo,
>they use a virtual debit card against their palm bank balances. Why is
>that so odd and upsetting to so many people?

Mostly I think because it seems like an abdication of responsibility.

>
>>So how did your parents handle this? Why are you so bad about remembering
>>to pay them?
>
>They were bad about remembering to pay too. When we remembered, we'd try
>to figure out how many weeks they'd missed and how much they owed us. That
>is what I used to do too. But why not take advantage of the technology that
>exists to help us keep track of things.

I would want them to remind you that it was time for their allowance or you
to have reminded your parents. What do you do about getting paid for
work? If it wasn't forthcoming wouldn't you know and be upset? Why should
it be any different for them?

I do see though that the technology could be kind of the same as automatic
bank deposit.
>
>>What possibility would there be of having them do their own allowances on
>>your Palm? I think that would help them learn to keep track, so that they
>>would KNOW whether they had money and wouldn't have to ask you if they had
>>any.
>
>They'd have to ask to use my palm to do it anyhow, so I don't see the
>benefit. They do have their balances memorized anyhow; I'm the one who

Well you didn't say that before.

>confirms whether they have enough when they decide to make a withdrawal.
>And if they lose track, they can just ask me to show them, just as they
>could have in prior generations gone to count the cash.


grandma Rosalie

Robyn Kozierok
September 30th 03, 01:04 AM
In article >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:
>
>I will say that when I had my allowance 'budgeted' for me by my mom, it
>wasn't *really* mine. I had my church money, Girl Scout dues, savings and
>some other required categories, and that money wasn't really discretionary.
>So I didn't ever save up FOR anything, because I didn't have but about 10
>cents a week (which was more then than it is now, but still wasn't much)
>extra. I remember getting a nickel candy bar (turkish taffy) sometimes on
>the way home from school, but I can't remember ever doing anything else
>with my allowance.

This was how my allowance was set up initially (when I was 6yo). At that
time, it made sense to get me used to the idea of a budget in general. As
I got older, I set my budget categories and amounts myself. This is my
general plan with my kids as well. My 6yo allowance included 15 cents a
week for me, which I mostly also used to buy candy or sugarless gum. :)
I didn't have "savings" at that point but developed that skill as I got
older and started getting more money.

>>>So how did your parents handle this? Why are you so bad about remembering
>>>to pay them?
>>
>>They were bad about remembering to pay too. When we remembered, we'd try
>>to figure out how many weeks they'd missed and how much they owed us. That
>>is what I used to do too. But why not take advantage of the technology that
>>exists to help us keep track of things.
>
>I would want them to remind you that it was time for their allowance or you
>to have reminded your parents. What do you do about getting paid for
>work? If it wasn't forthcoming wouldn't you know and be upset? Why should
>it be any different for them?

Often, my kids would remind me but I wouldn't have correct change at hand,
or I'd be busy cooking dinner or something at the time. So even with
reminders, they somehow ended up not getting paid on time most of the time.

My employer direct deposits my salary into my bank account, just as I'd
like my kids' allowance to be automatically added into their "Mom's
Palm Pilot" account. I'd notice if it didn't happen (as would my
kids), but I do pretty much trust them to just do it automatically. I
only see my pay stubs on an irregular basis.

--Robyn

Kevin Karplus
September 30th 03, 04:48 AM
In article >, Robyn Kozierok wrote:
> In article >,
> Rosalie B. > wrote:
>>
>>I will say that when I had my allowance 'budgeted' for me by my mom, it
>>wasn't *really* mine. I had my church money, Girl Scout dues, savings and
>>some other required categories, and that money wasn't really discretionary.
>>So I didn't ever save up FOR anything, because I didn't have but about 10
>>cents a week (which was more then than it is now, but still wasn't much)
>>extra. I remember getting a nickel candy bar (turkish taffy) sometimes on
>>the way home from school, but I can't remember ever doing anything else
>>with my allowance.
>
> This was how my allowance was set up initially (when I was 6yo). At that
> time, it made sense to get me used to the idea of a budget in general. As
> I got older, I set my budget categories and amounts myself. This is my
> general plan with my kids as well. My 6yo allowance included 15 cents a
> week for me, which I mostly also used to buy candy or sugarless gum. :)
> I didn't have "savings" at that point but developed that skill as I got
> older and started getting more money.

I don't quite understand the point of giving kids an allowance and
then telling them how to spend it. If they are too young to spend it
wisely, then just give them the amount you are willing to have them
waste. If they are old enough to make their own decisions, then give
them a responsibility (like school lunches or clothes) along with the
money needed for that expense, but let them decide how to spend it.
If you insist that they must buy a school lunch, then the school lunch
money is not part of their allowance.

Our 7-year-old son gets a $7 monthly allowance from his grandmother,
so we don't have to remember it. He saves most of the money, except
for an occasional splurge on Harry Potter trading cards, and a weekly
popsicle from the ice cream truck. Sometimes when he's in Marini's
(the local candy store) he'll spend $2 on a 1/4-lb of candy. He only
eats one pice of cnady a day, so it lasts him a while. He says he's
saving up for something, but he doesn't know what yet.

We also allow our son to have the school lunch once a week. The $2
for the lunch is not part of his allowance---it is lunch money that he
has no control over (other than choosing which day of the week he'll
have the school lunch).


--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

Robyn Kozierok
September 30th 03, 04:58 PM
In article >,
Kevin Karplus > wrote:
>>
>> This was how my allowance was set up initially (when I was 6yo). At that
>> time, it made sense to get me used to the idea of a budget in general. As
>> I got older, I set my budget categories and amounts myself. This is my
>> general plan with my kids as well. My 6yo allowance included 15 cents a
>> week for me, which I mostly also used to buy candy or sugarless gum. :)
>> I didn't have "savings" at that point but developed that skill as I got
>> older and started getting more money.
>
>I don't quite understand the point of giving kids an allowance and
>then telling them how to spend it. If they are too young to spend it
>wisely, then just give them the amount you are willing to have them
>waste. If they are old enough to make their own decisions, then give
>them a responsibility (like school lunches or clothes) along with the
>money needed for that expense, but let them decide how to spend it.
>If you insist that they must buy a school lunch, then the school lunch
>money is not part of their allowance.

I wanted my kids to learn, right from the start, to set aside some of
their money for charitable giving and some for purchasing gifts for
others. I wanted them to experience the power of saving. So, when I
started giving them allowance at 5yo, I originally conditioned it on
them setting aside a certain portion for charitable giving, a certain
portion for gifts, a certain portion for savings (to be saved up for
any item of their choice worth $5 or more) and the rest was theirs to
spend without restrictions. By your definition, on the free money was
really their allowance, but they got to decide what charities to give
their money to and had the fun of choosing and buying their own gifts for
their grandparents and others for Chanukah and sometimes other
occasions. They also had fun choosing what to save for, and seeing how
their small weekly amount could grow quickly when saved.

Now they get a larger amount (currently $4/week for each of them) which
they apportion as they see fit. They could choose to blow it all on
candy or Harry Potter cards, but they don't. They continue to contribute
a sizeable chunk of their allowance ($1 each, currently) to charity.
One continues to budget for gifts, while the other chooses to make gifts
and have more free money. They both also set aside some money each week
for medium-term savings.

Yes, I could have originally just given them $20 to spend at Chanukah
time, instead of forcing them to save part of their allowance each
week, and they would have had the same fun, but not the pride of being
able to say that they bought the gifts "with their own money" because
they did see it as *their* money even though it was given with
strings.

So, for us, it works to help encourage the money values we want them
to learn by first giving them an allowance with strings to "practice"
those values, and then when they have gained sufficient experience,
giving them full control. They also learn to use a budget with multiple
categories, a skill that I hope will serve them later in life.

--Robyn

David desJardins
October 2nd 03, 05:06 AM
You could track the allowances in Quicken, and run "Pocket Quicken" on
your Palm. I haven't used this, but it supposedly lets you synchronize
back and forth between the Palm and the desktop, entering transactions
on either. An advantage of this could be that your children could be
able to monitor their "account balances", get printouts of their
transactions, and generally manage their money, without needing to get
the information from you every time. (Assuming that they have access to
the desktop computer. Even if you don't want to give your children
access to the computer with the accounts, you could still periodically
give them printed "account statements".)

Actually, this sounds pretty good to me. I might well try this, when my
children are old enough.

David desJardins

David desJardins
October 2nd 03, 08:51 PM
Kevin Karplus writes:
> I don't quite understand the point of giving kids an allowance and
> then telling them how to spend it.

I sure do. Children learn mostly by habit, and experience. I don't see
how giving them money and telling them how to spend it is any different
from giving them food and telling them how to eat it, or giving them
clothes and telling them how to wear them, or giving them videos and
telling them when they can watch them. Etc., etc.

A common example is giving children money which is designated for them
to give to charity. Now, I can imagine the principled point of view
that says that children should have total independence in spending their
own money, and if they don't discover any virtue in giving to charity,
that's up to them. Nevertheless, I think it's also perfectly reasonable
for someone who has a belief in charitable giving to think that it's not
necessarily something that children will discover and value all by
themselves, and that teaching them to do it by having them do it is a
perfectly reasonable approach, too.

> We also allow our son to have the school lunch once a week. The $2
> for the lunch is not part of his allowance---it is lunch money that he
> has no control over (other than choosing which day of the week he'll
> have the school lunch).

This seems exactly the same as "giving [him] an allowance and telling
[him] how to spend it", except that you decide not to call it an
"allowance". Isn't that a purely semantic distinction?

David desJardins

dragonlady
October 2nd 03, 09:06 PM
In article >,
David desJardins > wrote:

> Kevin Karplus writes:
> > I don't quite understand the point of giving kids an allowance and
> > then telling them how to s

>
> > We also allow our son to have the school lunch once a week. The $2
> > for the lunch is not part of his allowance---it is lunch money that he
> > has no control over (other than choosing which day of the week he'll
> > have the school lunch).
>
> This seems exactly the same as "giving [him] an allowance and telling
> [him] how to spend it", except that you decide not to call it an
> "allowance". Isn't that a purely semantic distinction?
>
>

I have a different question about this: if he were to decide to pack a
lunch or just not eat lunch, could he keep the $2?

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Karen G
October 2nd 03, 09:29 PM
On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 00:06:12 EDT, David desJardins
> wrote:

>You could track the allowances in Quicken, and run "Pocket Quicken" on
>your Palm. I haven't used this, but it supposedly lets you synchronize
>back and forth between the Palm and the desktop, entering transactions
>on either. An advantage of this could be that your children could be
>able to monitor their "account balances", get printouts of their
>transactions, and generally manage their money, without needing to get
>the information from you every time. (Assuming that they have access to
>the desktop computer. Even if you don't want to give your children
>access to the computer with the accounts, you could still periodically
>give them printed "account statements".)
>
>Actually, this sounds pretty good to me. I might well try this, when my
>children are old enough.
>
> David desJardins
This is actually a really good thing to consider. It will teach them
basic accounting skills and Quicken can run various reports that will
help them see their progress toward goals and things. If you haven't
used quicken, the screens look just like a checkbook register. You can
set up a specific account for them and give them their own categories to
organize their expenditures. Quicken is a good tool as they get older
to foster financial independence.

Hmm, I think I'm sold on doing it this way. It will also provide a
springboard for family finance discussions.

Karen

Kevin Karplus
October 3rd 03, 04:12 PM
In article >, David desJardins wrote:
>> We also allow our son to have the school lunch once a week. The $2
>> for the lunch is not part of his allowance---it is lunch money that he
>> has no control over (other than choosing which day of the week he'll
>> have the school lunch).
>
> This seems exactly the same as "giving [him] an allowance and telling
> [him] how to spend it", except that you decide not to call it an
> "allowance". Isn't that a purely semantic distinction?

Yes, it is a purely semantic distinction. To our way of thinking, his
allowance consists solely of his discretionary funds, not expenses
that we have that he has some say in.

The examples people have given of encouraging the habit of charitable
giving are good. Currently the only charitable giving my son
participates in is giving some of my change to street musicians,
though I give a substantial proportion of my salary to charities.
I'll have to think about ways to teach him charitable donation.



--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

Penny Gaines
October 3rd 03, 10:15 PM
Carol Hulls wrote in >:

> We use a variation of this in our household. The bank of Mom and Dad
> has issued each child a virtual credit card. The limit is their
> weekly allowance and the card must be paid off each week. So if a

I'm a bit behind on reading mkm, but this is a really good idea. I'll
have to see if I can adapt it for use in our family.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

Kevin Karplus
October 3rd 03, 11:51 PM
In article >,
dragonlady wrote:
> In article >,
> David desJardins > wrote:
>
>> Kevin Karplus writes:
>> > I don't quite understand the point of giving kids an allowance and
>> > then telling them how to s
>
>> > We also allow our son to have the school lunch once a week. The $2
>> > for the lunch is not part of his allowance---it is lunch money that he
>> > has no control over (other than choosing which day of the week he'll
>> > have the school lunch).
>>
>> This seems exactly the same as "giving [him] an allowance and telling
>> [him] how to spend it", except that you decide not to call it an
>> "allowance". Isn't that a purely semantic distinction?
>
> I have a different question about this: if he were to decide to pack a
> lunch or just not eat lunch, could he keep the $2?

No, he is not allowed to skip lunch and pocket the money---it isn't
his money and that would be stealing. We would feel the same way if he
tried to sell his clothes or his bike for cash---these are things he
has the exclusive right to use, but not to get rid of.

Because he does not have the option of spending his school lunch money
or not, we don't think of it as part of his allowance. I'm sure if
you gave him the choice he'd prefer to have $2 to eating
lunch---already he often ends up eating his box lunches from home
after school because he was too busy at lunchtime to eat.

We've had no trouble with him using the lunch money inappropriately.
He already understands the notion of limited resources and limited
privileges: 1 hour of "screen time" a day, one candy a day, one school
lunch per week, ... . He gets some say in when he can exercise these
privileges (though not complete say---no candy just before dinner, no
screen time until homework is done, ... ).

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.