POLL: Math questions regarding upper elementary school (xpost to m.k.)

[chiam margalit]

Could you please answer the following questions IF you have a child
who has entered 4th grade. It's OK for your child to be older, but I
only need information regarding 4th grade math for a client of mine.
I need responses from *every* US state as well as from overseas. I'm
looking for a wide dispersal of respondants, so if you have friends
with kids in this age group, please don't hesitate to forward this.
TIA!

What State/Province/Country do you live in?

What grade is your child(ren) currently in?

Is your child in public or private school? (Please NO homeschooling!)

Is your child in a gifted or Resource Room program?

What math Texts does your child use?

Has your child been introduced to the Stem and Leaf Plot at school?

During what grade?

Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?

From where did you learn about this? At what age?

Can your child create his/her own stem and leaf plot?

Could you explain a stem and leaf plot without the text to a friend or
neighbor?

Does your school use Connected Math?



Thanks! Once I get results, I'll explain why I needed them. Right now
I can't taint the data.

Marjorie

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:
>Could you please answer the following questions IF you have a child
>who has entered 4th grade. It's OK for your child to be older, but I
>only need information regarding 4th grade math for a client of mine.
>I need responses from *every* US state as well as from overseas. I'm
>looking for a wide dispersal of respondants, so if you have friends
>with kids in this age group, please don't hesitate to forward this.
>TIA!
>
>What State/Province/Country do you live in?

Vermont

>What grade is your child(ren) currently in?

5th (subject accelerated for math)

>Is your child in public or private school? (Please NO homeschooling!)

private now, but was in public for 4th grade math

>Is your child in a gifted or Resource Room program?

no (but he probably would be in a gifted program if we had one)

>What math Texts does your child use?

The public school he attended used Addison Wesley Scott Foresman "Math"
program for K-2. That series includes student workbooks. They used a
related program but with no workbooks for 3rd and above. I'm not
exactly sure what it is though. They also have a separate and (IMO)
excellent "problem solving curriculum" that I don't believe to
currently be a commercial product, which is used beginning in 3rd grade
to help prepare the children for the state math portfolio requirements.

>Has your child been introduced to the Stem and Leaf Plot at school?
>
> During what grade?

Yes, in 4th grade math

>Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?
>
> From where did you learn about this? At what age?

Not until my son learned it (and I have a math degree, fwiw)

>Can your child create his/her own stem and leaf plot?

Yes; he does not find this difficult. (But I don't think he really
appreciated the benefits of using such a chart to express data.)

>Could you explain a stem and leaf plot without the text to a friend or
>neighbor?

Yes

>Does your school use Connected Math?

No

Oh, by the way, while they were so busy doing stem and leaf charts and
problem solving and whatnot, they didn't get to long division *at all*
during 4th grade math. My overall take on the stem and leaf charts is
that they're an odd thing to concentrate on in 4th grade (especially
at the expense of basics like long division) and that 4th graders have
little to gain from them, but that most 4th graders should have little
difficulty understanding how to make them. They're not very complicated,
just odd.

fwiw, I don't believe that our current private school teaches stem and
leaf charts in any grade (K-8). They definitely don't teach it in the
elementary division (K-5). They don't use any text book for the
elementary division math curriculum; they use their own curriculum.
They *do* teach long division :)

hth,

--Robyn

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:

btw, you probably already know this, but stem-and-leaf plots are
listed in the NCTM standards under Data Analysis and Probability
for grades 6-8 which is why so many "newer" curricula introduce them:

"discuss and understand the correspondence between data sets
and their graphical representations, especially histograms,
stem-and-leaf plots, box plots, and scatterplots"

--Robyn

[T68b]

>What State/Province/Country do you live in?

Texas

>What grade is your child(ren) currently in?

5th, 12th

>Is your child in public or private school? (Please NO homeschooling!)

public

>Is your child in a gifted or Resource Room program?

5th(enrichment classes)
12th gifted

>What math Texts does your child use?
>
I forget...can check if needed!

>Has your child been introduced to the Stem and Leaf Plot at school?

No

> During what grade?
>

>Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?

No....and I'm a teacher(special ed preschool and adult ems)

> From where did you learn about this? At what age?
>
>Can your child create his/her own stem and leaf plot?

dont think so--at leastnot pertaining to math!

>Could you explain a stem and leaf plot without the text to a friend or
>neighbor?

No

>Does your school use Connected Math?

Not used as that term
>
>Thanks!
you're welcome!

Kathi


>
>
>
>
>

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, Robyn Kozierok wrote:
>>Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?
>>
>> From where did you learn about this? At what age?
>
> Not until my son learned it (and I have a math degree, fwiw)

I learned about stem-and-leaf plots about 1985 from Edward Tufte's
beautiful book "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information".
I did NOT get stem-and-leaf plots in school or college, but I was in
theoretical math and computer science, neither of which are very
concerned with the display of data.

I routinely use stem-and-leaf plots to present histograms of grades to
my classes. I generally have to explain them the first time I use
them, as they still are not commonly known to college stuents.

They are a handy, but rather minor tool in data display. I would not
consider them an essential part of elementary education.


--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[David desJardins]

Robyn Kozierok writes:
> btw, you probably already know this, but stem-and-leaf plots are
> listed in the NCTM standards under Data Analysis and Probability
> for grades 6-8 which is why so many "newer" curricula introduce them:
>
> "discuss and understand the correspondence between data sets
> and their graphical representations, especially histograms,
> stem-and-leaf plots, box plots, and scatterplots"

Wow, this is dumb. You couldn't possibly find a real statistician who
thinks this is an important thing to teach children at that age (or
probably any age). It's hard to imagine how this could be on the
curriculum, except that some teacher somewhere saw one and thought, "Oh,
that looks cool." The question of whether the "stem-and-leaf plot" is
actually a useful tool for children to understand statistical data
probably didn't even come up. :-(

It's also noteworthy that the text of the standard goes into some detail
about histograms, box plots, and scatterplots, explaining what they are
and what they are good for. While there's not a single word about the
"stem-and-leaf plot" except for the statement, itself. Probably they
couldn't even think of an example that it would actually be good for!

Another step backwards for several million kids. :-(

David desJardins

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>btw, you probably already know this, but stem-and-leaf plots are
>listed in the NCTM standards under Data Analysis and Probability
>for grades 6-8 which is why so many "newer" curricula introduce them:

I was really amazed at http://t3.preservice.org/T0210285/instructionalgoals.htm
, which states "Although circle graphs are usually not taught by fifth grade,
as Pothier and Nickerson explain in their article titled "Our Heritage:
Learning Data-Management Skills Meaningfully", many students will still express
interest. For example, in their data analysis project on family heritage,
Nickerson found that her fifth graders "had made such good progress in their
ability to draw bar graphs" and the interest level was so high, that
introducing circle graphs did not cause any extra stress."

Now, a circle graph (I looked it up) is nothing more or less than our old
friend the pie chart. The idea that fifth-graders should have any trouble
WHATSOEVER with the idea of a pie chart is causing ME some stress! Not to
mention that they had "made such good progress" in drawing bar graphs.
AAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK!

--Helen

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, H Schinske wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>btw, you probably already know this, but stem-and-leaf plots are
>>listed in the NCTM standards under Data Analysis and Probability
>>for grades 6-8 which is why so many "newer" curricula introduce them:
>
> I was really amazed at http://t3.preservice.org/T0210285/instructionalgoals.htm
> , which states "Although circle graphs are usually not taught by fifth grade,
> as Pothier and Nickerson explain in their article titled "Our Heritage:
> Learning Data-Management Skills Meaningfully", many students will still express
> interest. For example, in their data analysis project on family heritage,
> Nickerson found that her fifth graders "had made such good progress in their
> ability to draw bar graphs" and the interest level was so high, that
> introducing circle graphs did not cause any extra stress."
>
> Now, a circle graph (I looked it up) is nothing more or less than our old
> friend the pie chart. The idea that fifth-graders should have any trouble
> WHATSOEVER with the idea of a pie chart is causing ME some stress! Not to
> mention that they had "made such good progress" in drawing bar graphs.
> AAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK!

Our school (a middling-rated public California school) starts bar
charts in kindergarten, so I would expect 5th graders to be able to
do them in their sleep.


--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Penny Gaines]

chiam margalit wrote in >:

> Could you please answer the following questions IF you have a child
> who has entered 4th grade. It's OK for your child to be older, but I
> only need information regarding 4th grade math for a client of mine.
> I need responses from *every* US state as well as from overseas. I'm
> looking for a wide dispersal of respondants, so if you have friends
> with kids in this age group, please don't hesitate to forward this.
> TIA!
[snip]

Fourth grade is 9-10 yos isn't it?

--

Penny Gaines

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Kevin Karplus > wrote:
>In article >, Robyn Kozierok wrote:
>>>Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?
>>>
>>> From where did you learn about this? At what age?
>>
>> Not until my son learned it (and I have a math degree, fwiw)
>
>I learned about stem-and-leaf plots about 1985 from Edward Tufte's
>beautiful book "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information".
>I did NOT get stem-and-leaf plots in school or college, but I was in
>theoretical math and computer science, neither of which are very
>concerned with the display of data.

My degree was theoretical ("pure") math and CS as well. But I did
have 2 (required) semesters of probability and statistics :)

--Robyn

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Penny Gaines > wrote:
>
>Fourth grade is 9-10 yos isn't it?
>

Yes. Exact cutoffs vary, but typically a 4th grader will have turned 9
by either August 31 (seems the most common cutoff these days) or Dec 31
(was the most common cutoff when I was a kid) of the year they start
4th grade.

--Robyn

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>Our school (a middling-rated public California school) starts bar
>charts in kindergarten, so I would expect 5th graders to be able to
>do them in their sleep.

So does ours. There is a bar graph outside my son's kindergarten as I speak,
showing the distribution of colors among the bears they all brought to school
one day.

I can see it might require some slightly detailed math to *construct* a pie
chart given certain data, now that I think about it. But to *read* one??

I should ask to look at the math textbook again. The 4th-grade homework about
stem-and-leaf plots I've seen my daughter bring home just covered the mechanics
of sorting the numbers by place values. I don't know if they are actually
learning *why* this is important, or if it is just supposed to be another way
to review place value (which seems to come up EVERY year in different ways -- I
can't tell you how many assignments my kids have struggled with until I told
them "It's just another place value thing," whereupon they groan "But I learned
that in first grade!" and do it instantly).

--Helen

[Circe]

"Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
...
> Our school (a middling-rated public California school) starts bar
> charts in kindergarten, so I would expect 5th graders to be able to
> do them in their sleep.

Basic charting/graphing is part of the California state standard for
kindergarten, so it should be taught in *every* California kindergarten
regardless of the school's ratings. I'm reasonably certain that my 6yo would
be able to comprehend the basic concepts behind a pie chart, although he
probably could not articulate them.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [19mo] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"Together we help the future grow." -- School slogan

[Bruce and Jeanne]

Robyn Kozierok wrote:

> In article >,
> Kevin Karplus > wrote:
> >In article >, Robyn Kozierok wrote:
> >>>Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?
> >>>
> >>> From where did you learn about this? At what age?
> >>
> >> Not until my son learned it (and I have a math degree, fwiw)
> >
> >I learned about stem-and-leaf plots about 1985 from Edward Tufte's
> >beautiful book "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information".
> >I did NOT get stem-and-leaf plots in school or college, but I was in
> >theoretical math and computer science, neither of which are very
> >concerned with the display of data.
>
> My degree was theoretical ("pure") math and CS as well. But I did
> have 2 (required) semesters of probability and statistics :)
>
> --Robyn
>

I did math undergrad and like you didn't learn about stem-and-leaf
plots. Instead I ran into the stem-and-leaf plots as a grad student in
city planning where we had to learn statistics.

BTW, I don't think of these plots as useful for young children to learn.

Jeanne

[Marion Baumgarten]

Robyn Kozierok > wrote:

> In article >,
> chiam margalit > wrote:
> >Could you please answer the following questions IF you have a child
> >who has entered 4th grade. It's OK for your child to be older, but I
> >only need information regarding 4th grade math for a client of mine.
> >I need responses from *every* US state as well as from overseas. I'm
> >looking for a wide dispersal of respondants, so if you have friends
> >with kids in this age group, please don't hesitate to forward this.
> >TIA!
> >
> >What State/Province/Country do you live in?
>IIlinois
> >What grade is your child(ren) currently in?
>
> 6th grade (but in 7th for math), 9th grade, taking Algebra 2
> >Is your child in public or private school? (Please NO homeschooling!)
>
>Public

> >Is your child in a gifted or Resource Room program?
>
Not in 4th grade
> >What math Texts does your child use?
>
>University of Chicago Everyday Math

> >Has your child been introduced to the Stem and Leaf Plot at school?

no- or they didn't retain it if they were.
> >
> > During what grade?
>
Said never herad of it
>
> >Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?
> >
No
> > From where did you learn about this? At what age?
>
Never herad of it until this message
>
> >Can your child create his/her own stem and leaf plot?
>
No
>
>
> >Does your school use Connected Math?
>

If this is Uof C math, then yes- otherwise no.

Marion Baumgarten
>

[chiam margalit]

(Robyn Kozierok) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> chiam margalit > wrote:
>
> btw, you probably already know this, but stem-and-leaf plots are
> listed in the NCTM standards under Data Analysis and Probability
> for grades 6-8 which is why so many "newer" curricula introduce them:

Yes, I DID know this. But I'm only interested in 4th grade math. And
I'm finding the responses VERY interesting and (tee hee) totally
backing up my hypothesis. I wish more people would respond though. I
really need enough data to cover at least 50% of all states to fight
this battle in court.

Thanks,

Marjorie
>
> "discuss and understand the correspondence between data sets
> and their graphical representations, especially histograms,
> stem-and-leaf plots, box plots, and scatterplots"
>
> --Robyn

[Donna Metler]

Tennessee tests the stem and leaf plot in 6th grade. (All of one question
last year-so it's not a major topic by any means). It is first introduced in
the grade 4 book (University of Chicago Everyday Math), and revisited after
that. Everyday math, like Connected Math, is a spiral curriculum, with the
idea being that children don't necessarily master things the first time they
do them. I think it's crazy, but that's a topic for another thread.

Our gifted math students work by acceleration, so it is possible that a
gifted student would be introduced to this earlier. Students with
disabilities in math usually end up with the curriculum pared down to the
essentials, so I expect the step and leaf plot wouldn't be covered.

I don't know if they actually learn it or can explain it or not. I don't
recall seeing one until college-and when I saw it, had no trouble
understanding it. I expect I could explain and teach it without trouble-but
am just as glad I don't have to, since it seems irrelevant for a 4th grader.

[Penny Gaines]

Robyn Kozierok wrote in >:

> My degree was theoretical ("pure") math and CS as well. But I did
> have 2 (required) semesters of probability and statistics :)

My degree had three years of pure maths, two years of economics, and
one year of stats (and a few other things). I'd never heard of stem
and leaf plots before - chi squared distributions, but not stem and
leaf plots.

--

Penny Gaines

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
chiam margalit > wrote:

(Robyn Kozierok) wrote in message >...
*> In article >,
*> chiam margalit > wrote:
*>
*> btw, you probably already know this, but stem-and-leaf plots are
*> listed in the NCTM standards under Data Analysis and Probability
*> for grades 6-8 which is why so many "newer" curricula introduce them:
*
*Yes, I DID know this. But I'm only interested in 4th grade math. And
*I'm finding the responses VERY interesting and (tee hee) totally
*backing up my hypothesis. I wish more people would respond though. I
*really need enough data to cover at least 50% of all states to fight
*this battle in court.

OK, WTF is a stem and leaf plot? I found this discussion online:
http://www.shodor.org/interactivate/discussions/steml.html and frankly it
is confusing the hell out of me.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:
(Robyn Kozierok) wrote in message
>...
>> In article >,
>> chiam margalit > wrote:
>>
>> btw, you probably already know this, but stem-and-leaf plots are
>> listed in the NCTM standards under Data Analysis and Probability
>> for grades 6-8 which is why so many "newer" curricula introduce them:
>
>Yes, I DID know this. But I'm only interested in 4th grade math.

For things the kids will be tested/evaluated on in 6th, introducing it in
4th doesn't seem unusual or unreasonable, within the semi-accepted paradigm
of teaching to the test. I think you already know my opinions on that!

>I'm finding the responses VERY interesting and (tee hee) totally
>backing up my hypothesis. I wish more people would respond though. I
>really need enough data to cover at least 50% of all states to fight
>this battle in court.

I doubt my responses are necessarily representative of my entire state,
and mine's a small state. AFAIK, the curriculum used at our public
schools was chosen by the local school board, not mandated by the state.
Of course, the testing is state-based. I don't know if stem-and-leaf
charts show up here in the 4th grade test or not until 6th, but I could
find out if you want. I'd guess some states are more consistent on
public school curricula than others.

I'll be interested to hear what kind of court battle you could be having
over stem-and-leaf charts once you have enough data to reveal your
reasons for asking. ;-)

--Robyn

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Hillary Israeli > wrote:
>
>OK, WTF is a stem and leaf plot? I found this discussion online:
>http://www.shodor.org/interactivate/discussions/steml.html and frankly it
>is confusing the hell out of me.

That's where I was going to send you for a good explanation :-O

It's just basically a chart where numbers are grouped by all but their
least significant digit so that you can more easily see which ranges
of numbers show up most often. So to plot grades, like someone else
here suggested, if you have grades like 34 56 63 65 68 72 72 73 75 77 78
79 80 82 83 83 85 86 89 94 96 99 100, your chart would end up looking like

|
-----|----------
3 | 4
5 | 6
6 | 358
7 | 2235789
8 | 0233569
9 | 469
10 | 0

This way of organizing the data makes it clearer where most of the
grades fell at first glance (70's and 80's)

Each digit on the right side represents one instance of a number that
fell into that category so we have 2235789 next to the 7, representing
72 72 73 75 77 78 and 79.

--Robyn

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Robyn Kozierok > wrote:

*
* |
*-----|----------
* 3 | 4
* 5 | 6
* 6 | 358
* 7 | 2235789
* 8 | 0233569
* 9 | 469
* 10 | 0
*
*This way of organizing the data makes it clearer where most of the
*grades fell at first glance (70's and 80's)

This looks like a weird-ass way of making a graph! I guess I just don't
really see the point. That's ok.

Thanks.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Hillary Israeli > wrote:
>
>This looks like a weird-ass way of making a graph! I guess I just don't
>really see the point. That's ok.
>

I think that's probably what most 4th graders get out of it as well. ;-)
It's not complicated to learn to make one, but I don't think many of them
really see the point. While I *do* see the point of using them to
illustrate some types of data quickly and easily, I *don't* see the point
of insisting on 4th or 6th or even 8th graders mastering this particular
skill.

--Robyn

[David desJardins]

Hillary Israeli writes:
>> -----|----------
>> 3 | 4
>> 5 | 6
>> 6 | 358
>> 7 | 2235789
>> 8 | 0233569
>> 9 | 469
>> 10 | 0
>
> This looks like a weird-ass way of making a graph! I guess I just don't
> really see the point. That's ok.

The main point is to summarize all of the data in a way that makes it
possible to go back to the raw observations. So, if you wanted to
compute some other statistics on the distribution, or answer any other
questions about the data, the information is there for you to do so.

Whether this is something that most 4th or 6th graders would care about,
or would be useful to them, is another question.

David desJardins

[Banty]

In article >, chiam margalit
says...
>
>Could you please answer the following questions IF you have a child
>who has entered 4th grade. It's OK for your child to be older, but I
>only need information regarding 4th grade math for a client of mine.
>I need responses from *every* US state as well as from overseas. I'm
>looking for a wide dispersal of respondants, so if you have friends
>with kids in this age group, please don't hesitate to forward this.
>TIA!

Now that Robyn's explanation has given me an "oh yeah!" moment...

>
>What State/Province/Country do you live in?

New York

>
>What grade is your child(ren) currently in?

6th

>
>Is your child in public or private school? (Please NO homeschooling!)

Public school.

>
>Is your child in a gifted or Resource Room program?

No.

>
>What math Texts does your child use?

In 4th grade he used handouts prepared every day. In 5th grade there was a
text, but he kept it at school, and it was supplemented by handouts.

>
>Has your child been introduced to the Stem and Leaf Plot at school?

Yes (now that Robyn shows it - I remember him asking me about it, us doing it)

>
> During what grade?

5th grade

>
>Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?

Not as a parent. Not even as an engineer.

>
> From where did you learn about this? At what age?
>

My son. When I was age 48.

>Can your child create his/her own stem and leaf plot?

If reminded about it.

>
>Could you explain a stem and leaf plot without the text to a friend or
>neighbor?

I'd have to draw up an example like Robyn's.

>
>Does your school use Connected Math?


Huh? Please explain. (There might be another 'oh yeah' moment lurking..)

Banty (whither the New Math?)

[LFortier]

chiam margalit wrote:
>
>
> What State/Province/Country do you live in?
North Carolina

>
> What grade is your child(ren) currently in?
5th (and second)

>
> Is your child in public or private school? (Please NO homeschooling!)
Public

>
> Is your child in a gifted or Resource Room program?
yes, but in language arts

>
> What math Texts does your child use?
Harcourt, I believe. I never see it.

>
> Has your child been introduced to the Stem and Leaf Plot at school?
No

>
> During what grade?
>
> Have you as a parent ever heard of a stem and leaf plot?
Not until this question.

>
> From where did you learn about this? At what age?
Google. 37

>
> Can your child create his/her own stem and leaf plot?
She could if someone showed her how. She doesn't "intuit"
math, so she probably wouldn't figure it out on her own.

>
> Could you explain a stem and leaf plot without the text to a friend or
> neighbor?
Not unless I read up on it more.

>
> Does your school use Connected Math?
No. but I have heard talk of a new math method that is not
thrilling the teachers.


Lesley

[just me]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Hillary Israeli writes:
> >> -----|----------
> >> 3 | 4
> >> 5 | 6
> >> 6 | 358
> >> 7 | 2235789
> >> 8 | 0233569
> >> 9 | 469
> >> 10 | 0
> >
> > This looks like a weird-ass way of making a graph! I guess I just don't
> > really see the point. That's ok.
>
> The main point is to summarize all of the data in a way that makes it
> possible to go back to the raw observations. So, if you wanted to
> compute some other statistics on the distribution, or answer any other
> questions about the data, the information is there for you to do so.
>
> Whether this is something that most 4th or 6th graders would care about,
> or would be useful to them, is another question.
>

So what are the usual applications in real life?

-Aula

[David desJardins]

Aula writes:
>> The main point is to summarize all of the data in a way that makes it
>> possible to go back to the raw observations. So, if you wanted to
>> compute some other statistics on the distribution, or answer any other
>> questions about the data, the information is there for you to do so.
>
> So what are the usual applications in real life?

Kevin posted a good example: giving the distribution of test scores to
the students in his class. It's a graphical representation of the data,
which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
right there.

David desJardins

[just me]

"David desJardins" > wrote in message
...
> Aula writes:
> > So what are the usual applications in real life?
>
> Kevin posted a good example: giving the distribution of test scores to
> the students in his class. It's a graphical representation of the data,
> which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
> know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
> right there.


Are there any other applications that are used at least in research or
something? While students may like to know grade distributions, that isn't
quite what I was thinking of as "real life"..... What is the real value of
knowing this type of representation of data?

-Aula

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>It's a graphical representation of the data,
>which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
>know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
>right there.

So basically it's the same thing as a bar graph with raw data scrawled on it?
;-)

--Helen

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, just me wrote:
> "David desJardins" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Aula writes:
>> > So what are the usual applications in real life?
>>
>> Kevin posted a good example: giving the distribution of test scores to
>> the students in his class. It's a graphical representation of the data,
>> which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
>> know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
>> right there.
>
>
> Are there any other applications that are used at least in research or
> something? While students may like to know grade distributions, that isn't
> quite what I was thinking of as "real life"..... What is the real value of
> knowing this type of representation of data?



Well, for some of us, preparing grade distributions IS real life.

According to Tufte, in "The Visual Display of Quantitative
Information", stem-and-leaf plots were invented by John Tukey (a
famous statistician---see
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Tukey.html).
This book is probably the first exposure many people (including me)
had to stem-and-leaf plots. I think that Tufte's book would be an
excellent text for middle-school or high-school students, as it
describes quite clearly how to present data well.

Tufte quotes Tukey as saying "If we are going to make a mark, it may as
well be a meaningful one. The simplest---and most useful--meaningful
mark is a digit."

Tufte gives one example of stem-and-leaf plots for the heights of 218
volcanoes. Note: Tufte dedicates one page of his 190-page book to
stem-and-leaf plots, so clearly he does not regard them as a major
topic. They are in the chapter on "multifunctioning graphical
elements," which includes a number of weird and wonderful ways of
displaying data.

My personal belief is that stem-and-leaf plots are a very minor data
presentation trick that is handy to know but not worth putting into
curricular standards. Scatter diagrams, contour diagrams, and
false-color presentation are all much more important.


--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"just me" > wrote:

> "David desJardins" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Aula writes:
> > > So what are the usual applications in real life?
> >
> > Kevin posted a good example: giving the distribution of test scores to
> > the students in his class. It's a graphical representation of the data,
> > which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
> > know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
> > right there.
>
>
> Are there any other applications that are used at least in research or
> something? While students may like to know grade distributions, that isn't
> quite what I was thinking of as "real life"..... What is the real value of
> knowing this type of representation of data?
>
> -Aula
>

Personally, I think it is valuable to have a lot of different tools at
your disposal to graphically represent data. You never know which ones
will make some piece of information or some connection suddenly leap out
or make more sense. You can also use it to compare two different sets
of data: say, scores from two different classes, by putting the "stem"
in the middle of 3 columns, and the "leaves" (the details from each
class) in the two side columns.

I'd never heard of leaf-and-stem (or at least didn't remember hearing
about it) until I read this thread, but it took me about 10 minutes to
find a decent explanation on a web page, and another 2 minutes to
understand it. I think it may come in handy when I'm looking at some
sorts of statistical data -- attendance figures, maybe -- but I'm not
sure yet. I also showed it to a friend who is a technical writer, and
she said she thought she could see applications for it, and was pretty
interested.

I asked both of my 17 yo's if they knew about it; one said yes and he
could explain it (he's a math sponge) and the other remembered the words
but couldn't remember what it was (she does her best to pretend school
doesn't exist at all), so obviously they ARE teaching it around here.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Bruce and Jeanne]

H Schinske wrote:

> wrote:
>
> >It's a graphical representation of the data,
> >which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
> >know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
> >right there.
>
> So basically it's the same thing as a bar graph with raw data scrawled on it?
> ;-)
>
> --Helen
>

Yes.

Jeanne

[Bruce and Jeanne]

just me wrote:

> "David desJardins" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Aula writes:
> > > So what are the usual applications in real life?
> >
> > Kevin posted a good example: giving the distribution of test scores to
> > the students in his class. It's a graphical representation of the data,
> > which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
> > know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
> > right there.
>
>
> Are there any other applications that are used at least in research or
> something? While students may like to know grade distributions, that isn't
> quite what I was thinking of as "real life"..... What is the real value of
> knowing this type of representation of data?
>
> -Aula
>

There are tons of applications. This type of analysis is probably
descriptive that you use to look at the (usually categorical) data to
check for its validity. For example, in some sort of medical research,
patients may have their age, weight, temperatures recorded. Although you
can present summary stats (e.g., average, median, mode, etc.) of each
variable, the stem and leaf plot can show you a rough distribution and
from there you (the researcher) can figure out the average, median,
mode.

That said, the stem-and-leaf plot isn't used a lot in social science
research when descriptive statistics is requested.

Jeanne

[just me]

"Bruce and Jeanne" > wrote in message
...
> There are tons of applications. This type of analysis is probably
> descriptive that you use to look at the (usually categorical) data to
> check for its validity. For example, in some sort of medical research,
> patients may have their age, weight, temperatures recorded. Although you
> can present summary stats (e.g., average, median, mode, etc.) of each
> variable, the stem and leaf plot can show you a rough distribution and
> from there you (the researcher) can figure out the average, median,
> mode.
>
> That said, the stem-and-leaf plot isn't used a lot in social science
> research when descriptive statistics is requested.


Now that makes sense to me. I appreciate your explanation as I was having a
hard time figuring out uses. Since I work in the social sciences I might
not think as quickly of hard science applications ;-)

-Aula
--
see my creative works on ebay under aulame 123

[Bruce and Jeanne]

just me wrote:

> "Bruce and Jeanne" > wrote in message
> ...
> > There are tons of applications. This type of analysis is probably
> > descriptive that you use to look at the (usually categorical) data to
> > check for its validity. For example, in some sort of medical research,
> > patients may have their age, weight, temperatures recorded. Although you
> > can present summary stats (e.g., average, median, mode, etc.) of each
> > variable, the stem and leaf plot can show you a rough distribution and
> > from there you (the researcher) can figure out the average, median,
> > mode.
> >
> > That said, the stem-and-leaf plot isn't used a lot in social science
> > research when descriptive statistics is requested.
>
>
> Now that makes sense to me. I appreciate your explanation as I was having a
> hard time figuring out uses. Since I work in the social sciences I might
> not think as quickly of hard science applications ;-)
>
> -Aula
>

I can also see social science applications. For instance, in
transportation planning one might send out a survey asking people about
the number of cars in their household, the number of drivers, the number
of bicycles, and the primary mode of transportation. Stem-and-leaf
plots can quickly point out outliers (e.g., a household with 10 cars).

In another application (stop me, please!) can be in education policy
looking at use of PSATs: grade of student when PSAT taken, PSAT score.
Again stem-and-leaf plots would show outliers (e.g., the 5th or 6th
grader who took it).

But as a SAS programmer, I've never had a researcher ask for a
stem-and-leaf plot. They want the summary statistics.

Jeanne

[user]

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:31:31 EDT, H Schinske > wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>It's a graphical representation of the data,
>>which also gives all of the raw data to the students, so if they want to
>>know (for example) how many students scored above them, the data is
>>right there.
>
> So basically it's the same thing as a bar graph with raw data scrawled on it?
> ;-)

Well, as someone who works in the publishing/printing industry, my
first thought was, "Interesting... but with the right data set and
a proportional font, the plot comes out totally misleading."

I.E, if a leaf has several digits that are narrower than the
average; for example, there are lots of '1's, and other leaves have
lots of '5's, which are wider, then even if there are *more* data points in the
first leaf than the second, it will physically take up less space on the
page, and mislead the reader.

So, unless the person presenting the data is very careful about
typographic conventions, the end result would present an inaccurate
view of the data. Personally, I would just prefer a bar chart,
and have the raw data presented elsewhere. ;-)

- Rich

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, user wrote:
> Well, as someone who works in the publishing/printing industry, my
> first thought was, "Interesting... but with the right data set and
> a proportional font, the plot comes out totally misleading."

BEEP! You can't use stem-and-leaf plots with proportional fonts!
Mono-space fonts only!!! (Or very difficult tabular typsetting to
force each digit to have the same width.)

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[user]

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 18:51:57 EDT, Kevin Karplus > wrote:
> In article >, user wrote:
>> Well, as someone who works in the publishing/printing industry, my
>> first thought was, "Interesting... but with the right data set and
>> a proportional font, the plot comes out totally misleading."
>
> BEEP! You can't use stem-and-leaf plots with proportional fonts!
> Mono-space fonts only!!! (Or very difficult tabular typsetting to
> force each digit to have the same width.)

And even worse, in the context of this thread, most people write
in a more-or-less proportional fashion, so the kids could easily
end up misleading themselves with their own hand-drawn plots,
unless they are done in graph paper, to ensure that each digit
takes up the same amount of space.

[chiam margalit]

(Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
> In article >, user wrote:
> > Well, as someone who works in the publishing/printing industry, my
> > first thought was, "Interesting... but with the right data set and
> > a proportional font, the plot comes out totally misleading."
>
> BEEP! You can't use stem-and-leaf plots with proportional fonts!
> Mono-space fonts only!!! (Or very difficult tabular typsetting to
> force each digit to have the same width.)

Wow, I didn't know this and it does have an impact on the information
I'm trying to gather, so THANK YOU!

Marjorie

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >,
chiam margalit wrote:
> (Kevin Karplus) wrote in message >...
>> In article >, user wrote:
>> > Well, as someone who works in the publishing/printing industry, my
>> > first thought was, "Interesting... but with the right data set and
>> > a proportional font, the plot comes out totally misleading."
>>
>> BEEP! You can't use stem-and-leaf plots with proportional fonts!
>> Mono-space fonts only!!! (Or very difficult tabular typsetting to
>> force each digit to have the same width.)
>
> Wow, I didn't know this and it does have an impact on the information
> I'm trying to gather, so THANK YOU!

Alan Rosenthal correctly pointed out to me by e-mail that most
proportional fonts use mono-spacing for digits, to make setting tables
of numbers easier. In fact, he challenged me to come up with a
widely-used font that did NOT have mono-spaced digits.

I looked through some font metric tables and only found a few fonts
that did not have the same width for both 0 and 1.

Several fonts of the Lucida and Lucida Bright families from Y&Y
have this problem:

yandy/lubright/lbdsc.afm:C 48 ; WX 664 ; N zero ; B 36 -12 628 548 ;
yandy/lubright/lbdsc.afm:C 49 ; WX 500 ; N one ; B 69 0 449 542 ;

yandy/lubright/lbrsc.afm:C 48 ; WX 639 ; N zero ; B 48 -12 590 542 ;
yandy/lubright/lbrsc.afm:C 49 ; WX 494 ; N one ; B 81 0 413 542 ;

yandy/lucida/lbc.afm:C 48 ; WX 664 ; N zero ; B 120 -12 651 542 ;
yandy/lucida/lbc.afm:C 49 ; WX 434 ; N one ; B 72 0 386 542 ;

yandy/lucida/lbl.afm:C 48 ; WX 533 ; N zero ; B 33 -12 500 554 ;
yandy/lucida/lbl.afm:C 49 ; WX 451 ; N one ; B 27 -6 427 554 ;

yandy/lumath/lbmdtex.afm:C 49 ; WX 623 ; N one ; B 120 0 517 729 ;
yandy/lumath/lbmdtex.afm:C 156 ; WX 624 ; N zeroslash ; B 32 -66 592 789 ;

which is somehwat surprising, as the Lucida family is one of the few
fonts that is designed to work well with the TeX math-typesetting
package.

There are undoubtedly other fonts with proportional spacing of the
digits, but we only have a small collection of font tables on the
machine I checked. The most commonly used fonts DO mono-space their
digits, even ones with enormous variation in letter widths (like Avant
Garde).

Note: this topic seems to be drifting out of the proper topic area for
mkm. I suggest that we not discuss fonts further on the newsgroup, but
(as Alan already wisely did) take any further discussions on fonts to
e-mail.

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.