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Robyn Kozierok
November 21st 03, 06:49 PM
My children's dentist just told me not to ever let my kids have any
carbonated drinks because carbonation is "pure evil" because the
carbonic acid produced by carbonation erodes teeth. I find this
hard to believe. I can see that sugary carbonated drinks would have
the same issues as other sugary liquids, but he claims that even
plain seltzer (which my 2yo loves to share with me) has this problem.
This seems more like a wives' tale than good science to me.
But I can't seem to find anything authoritative based on a quick
google search. Most studies seem to relate to sugared soft drinks.
Even though seltzer is slightly acidic due to the carbonic acid,
so is orange juice and probably other non-carbonated beverages.
You don't soak your teeth in either one. Anyone know the real
scoop on this?

Thanks,

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

Splanche
November 21st 03, 10:49 PM
I remember something about Soda leaching calcium from teeth & bones, but I
thought it was the phosphorus....

LarryDoc
November 22nd 03, 04:55 AM
In article >,
Robyn Kozierok > wrote:

> My children's dentist just told me not to ever let my kids have any
> carbonated drinks because carbonation is "pure evil" because the
> carbonic acid produced by carbonation erodes teeth. I find this
> hard to believe. I can see that sugary carbonated drinks would have
> the same issues as other sugary liquids, but he claims that even
> plain seltzer (which my 2yo loves to share with me) has this problem.
> This seems more like a wives' tale than good science to me.
> But I can't seem to find anything authoritative based on a quick
> google search. Most studies seem to relate to sugared soft drinks.
> Even though seltzer is slightly acidic due to the carbonic acid,
> so is orange juice and probably other non-carbonated beverages.
> You don't soak your teeth in either one. Anyone know the real
> scoop on this?

I think you've got the right picture.

I can't imagine the chemistry supporting plain selter as a problem. Does
it taste bitter/sour? Of course not. Carbonic acid produced by
injecting CO2 into water is simply not that acidic. The acid level is
far less than orange juice. But the rest of story, sugary carbonated
drinks with phosphoric acid like colas are a serious issue with regard
to tooth decay, erosion of young enamal, not to mention what it does to
the gastro-intestinal lining, blood sugar and caloric intake.

Our dentist was quite clear about things: eat an orange (or, in our
case, lemon----our daughter picks lemons off our tree to munch on) and
swish your mouth with plain water. Chewable orange vitamin C tablets
are a real no-no. Water down juices and brush or at least rinse
following and just don't do soda pop at all.

Larry

--
Dr. Larry Bickford, O.D.
Family Practice Eye Health & Vision Care

The Eyecare Connection
http//www.eyecarecontacts.com
larrydoc at m a c.c o m

lizzard woman
November 22nd 03, 02:33 PM
"LarryDoc" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Robyn Kozierok > wrote:
>
> > My children's dentist just told me not to ever let my kids have any
> > carbonated drinks because carbonation is "pure evil" because the
> > carbonic acid produced by carbonation erodes teeth. I find this
> > hard to believe. I can see that sugary carbonated drinks would have
> > the same issues as other sugary liquids, but he claims that even
> > plain seltzer (which my 2yo loves to share with me) has this problem.
> > This seems more like a wives' tale than good science to me.
> > But I can't seem to find anything authoritative based on a quick
> > google search. Most studies seem to relate to sugared soft drinks.
> > Even though seltzer is slightly acidic due to the carbonic acid,
> > so is orange juice and probably other non-carbonated beverages.
> > You don't soak your teeth in either one. Anyone know the real
> > scoop on this?
>
> I think you've got the right picture.
>
> I can't imagine the chemistry supporting plain selter as a problem. Does
> it taste bitter/sour? Of course not. Carbonic acid produced by
> injecting CO2 into water is simply not that acidic. The acid level is
> far less than orange juice.

I think you migh be confusing the pH and ionic stregth.

The pH of carbonated drinks is extremely low (<2 IIRC) when you first open
the can/bottle but quickly comes up. It seems to have a low ionic strength
which means that its relatively dilute. You can have a relatively dilute
solution that has a very low pH.

> But the rest of story, sugary carbonated
> drinks with phosphoric acid like colas are a serious issue with regard
> to tooth decay, erosion of young enamal, not to mention what it does to
> the gastro-intestinal lining, blood sugar and caloric intake.

Why do you think ingested low pH liquids can be more harmful that the
extremely low pH of stomach acid?

(snip)

> Chewable orange vitamin C tablets
> are a real no-no.

Why?

I buy the ones without sugar for my guinea pigs (they have a high ascorbic
acid requirement) and they eat about one a day like good little pigs.


--
sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)

Robyn Kozierok
November 22nd 03, 05:03 PM
(Splanche) wrote in message >...
> I remember something about Soda leaching calcium from teeth & bones, but I
> thought it was the phosphorus....

Yes, the phosphoric acid that is added to colas supposedly impacts
calcium absorption, but again, it sounds to me more like an urban
legend than good science. The amount of phosphorus in coke is
probably not enough to be of concern unless you are drinking gallons
of the stuff.

--Robyn

just me
November 22nd 03, 06:15 PM
"Robyn Kozierok" > wrote in message
om...
> Yes, the phosphoric acid that is added to colas supposedly impacts
> calcium absorption, but again, it sounds to me more like an urban
> legend than good science. The amount of phosphorus in coke is
> probably not enough to be of concern unless you are drinking gallons
> of the stuff.
>


I've seen articles in the last month or so stating that women who drink
sodas regularly are at a higher risk for osteoporosis and fractures due to
the effect on absorption of calcium. Since I don't drink soda I didn't pay
close attention to the science of this. Have you, or other science oriented
readers seen those reports?

-Aula
--
see my creative works on ebay under aulame123

LisaBell
November 22nd 03, 09:01 PM
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 11:03:26 EST, (Robyn Kozierok)
wrote:

(Splanche) wrote in message >...
>> I remember something about Soda leaching calcium from teeth & bones, but I
>> thought it was the phosphorus....
>
>Yes, the phosphoric acid that is added to colas supposedly impacts
>calcium absorption, but again, it sounds to me more like an urban
>legend than good science. The amount of phosphorus in coke is
>probably not enough to be of concern unless you are drinking gallons
>of the stuff.

According to Coca Cola,
http://www2.coca-cola.com/contactus/faq/ingredients.html#26"

" The consumption of soft drinks, including colas does not cause weak
bones. In fact, the amount of phosphorus found in soft drinks is
similar to the level found in orange juice."

--Lisabell

Harold Buck
November 22nd 03, 11:10 PM
In article <oVBvb.453796$6C4.373992@pd7tw1no>,
lizzard woman > wrote:

> The pH of carbonated drinks is extremely low (<2 IIRC) when you first open
> the can/bottle but quickly comes up. It seems to have a low ionic strength
> which means that its relatively dilute. You can have a relatively dilute
> solution that has a very low pH.


I checked some Coke with a pH meter when I was in college, and it was
2.0. That was close to 20 years ago, though, so I don't know if the
formula has changed at all (the formula for Coke, not the formula for
calculating pH).

--Harold Buck


"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Marion Baumgarten
November 23rd 03, 12:39 AM
http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/acid.asp#origins

I did find this which says that it's nothing to worry about.

LarryDoc
November 24th 03, 07:58 PM
In article <oVBvb.453796$6C4.373992@pd7tw1no>,
lizzard woman > wrote:


>
> I think you migh be confusing the pH and ionic stregth.
>
> The pH of carbonated drinks is extremely low (<2 IIRC) when you first open
> the can/bottle but quickly comes up. It seems to have a low ionic strength
> which means that its relatively dilute. You can have a relatively dilute
> solution that has a very low pH.

"Ionic strength"is only a measure of the concentration and charge of
ions in solution. That can affect the solubility of compounds in the
solution, but hardly impacts pH as we are talking about what it is when
it hits your teeth. Try seeing how much neutral pH water you have to
add to a quantity of low pH water to raise it. It's in the
hundreds-to-one ratio.
>
> > But the rest of story, sugary carbonated
> > drinks with phosphoric acid like colas are a serious issue with regard
> > to tooth decay, erosion of young enamal, not to mention what it does to
> > the gastro-intestinal lining, blood sugar and caloric intake.
>
> Why do you think ingested low pH liquids can be more harmful that the
> extremely low pH of stomach acid?

The stomach is designed to handle (it's own) acids, the teeth and gums
are not.
>
> (snip)
>
> > Chewable orange vitamin C tablets
> > are a real no-no.
>
> Why?

The combination of sticky sugar and acids increases the contact time
with the teeth. Residual sugar in a low pH environment stuck in etched
teeth makes a nice meal for the bacteria.
>
> I buy the ones without sugar for my guinea pigs (they have a high ascorbic
> acid requirement) and they eat about one a day like good little pigs.

Ahhh....but does it taste as good?

--
Dr. Larry Bickford, O.D.
Family Practice Eye Health & Vision Care

The Eyecare Connection
http//www.eyecarecontacts.com
larrydoc at m a c.c o m

lizzard woman
November 25th 03, 08:12 AM
"LarryDoc" > wrote in message
...
> In article <oVBvb.453796$6C4.373992@pd7tw1no>,
> lizzard woman > wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I think you migh be confusing the pH and ionic stregth.
> >
> > The pH of carbonated drinks is extremely low (<2 IIRC) when you first
open
> > the can/bottle but quickly comes up. It seems to have a low ionic
strength
> > which means that its relatively dilute. You can have a relatively
dilute
> > solution that has a very low pH.
>
> "Ionic strength"is only a measure of the concentration and charge of
> ions in solution. That can affect the solubility of compounds in the
> solution, but hardly impacts pH as we are talking about what it is when
> it hits your teeth. Try seeing how much neutral pH water you have to
> add to a quantity of low pH water to raise it. It's in the
> hundreds-to-one ratio.

I was responding to your comment:

"Carbonic acid produced by injecting CO2 into water is simply not that
acidic. The acid level is far less than orange juice."

In fact "carbonic acid produced by injecting CO2 into water" can produe a
VERY acidic solution, pH 2 or or less (as in a can of soda immediately after
it is opened and before much of the CO2 leaves solution. But that same
solution has a very low ionic strength so it won't burn you. I don't know
about teh pH of orange juice but I wager it isn;t as low as soda immediately
after the can is opened. Recall that pH is a log scale so a pH of 2 like
for newly opened soda is EXTREMELY acidic, opposite to what you stated.

I did not imply ionic strength affects pH, only that you seemed to be
conflating the two concepts in your original post. Although soda might have
a very low pH (when foirst opened), it is not likely to do much damage
because the ionic strength is relatively low. That is the balance between
H+ and OH- ions is heavly skewed towards the H+ but there are relatively few
TOTAL ions in solution.


> > > But the rest of story, sugary carbonated
> > > drinks with phosphoric acid like colas are a serious issue with regard
> > > to tooth decay, erosion of young enamal, not to mention what it does
to
> > > the gastro-intestinal lining, blood sugar and caloric intake.
> >
> > Why do you think ingested low pH liquids can be more harmful that the
> > extremely low pH of stomach acid?
>
> The stomach is designed to handle (it's own) acids, the teeth and gums
> are not.

You stated: "But the rest of story, sugary carbonated drinks with
phosphoric acid like colas are a serious issue with regard (snip...) not to
mention what it does to the gastro-intestinal lining,

I was asking about your comment about gastro-intestinal lining, not about
teeth and gums.

So I ask again, how does ingesting phosphoric acid in sugarly carbonated
drinks going to impact the gastro-intestinal lining when that lining is in
fact geared towards a pH environment that is probably much lower than that
of the drink? It makes no sense tha one could ingest a solution (in this
case a sugary drink) that would have a lower pH than the stomach itself. So
how does it rise to the level of "serious issue"?

> > > Chewable orange vitamin C tablets
> > > are a real no-no.
> >
> > Why?
>
> The combination of sticky sugar and acids increases the contact time
> with the teeth. Residual sugar in a low pH environment stuck in etched
> teeth makes a nice meal for the bacteria.

> > I buy the ones without sugar for my guinea pigs (they have a high
ascorbic
> > acid requirement) and they eat about one a day like good little pigs.
>
> Ahhh....but does it taste as good?

They like them just fine. As I said, they are very good girl pigs.

The point is you assumed that all ascorbic acid tablets have sugar and I'm
telling you it is beyond easy to find some that have no sugar whatsoever.

--
sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)

Lisa
November 25th 03, 07:24 PM
l
>
> > > > Chewable orange vitamin C tablets
> > > > are a real no-no.
> > >
> > > Why?
> >
> > The combination of sticky sugar and acids increases the contact time
> > with the teeth. Residual sugar in a low pH environment stuck in etched
> > teeth makes a nice meal for the bacteria.
>

How about chewable children's multiple vitamins? I give those to my kids
every day. Do you guys think those are a problem? I haven't
been asking them to rinse or brush after eating those in the morning.

Lisa


> > > I buy the ones without sugar for my guinea pigs (they have a high
> ascorbic
> > > acid requirement) and they eat about one a day like good little pigs.
> >
> > Ahhh....but does it taste as good?
>
> They like them just fine. As I said, they are very good girl pigs.
>
> The point is you assumed that all ascorbic acid tablets have sugar and I'm
> telling you it is beyond easy to find some that have no sugar whatsoever.

LarryDoc
November 25th 03, 10:17 PM
In article <uTBwb.491616$9l5.394134@pd7tw2no>,
lizzard woman > wrote:

> You stated: "But the rest of story, sugary carbonated drinks with
> phosphoric acid like colas are a serious issue with regard (snip...) not to
> mention what it does to the gastro-intestinal lining,
>
> I was asking about your comment about gastro-intestinal lining, not about
> teeth and gums.
>
> So I ask again, how does ingesting phosphoric acid in sugarly carbonated
> drinks going to impact the gastro-intestinal lining when that lining is in
> fact geared towards a pH environment that is probably much lower than that
> of the drink? It makes no sense tha one could ingest a solution (in this
> case a sugary drink) that would have a lower pH than the stomach itself. So
> how does it rise to the level of "serious issue"?

Certainly it would have no impact on the stomach, but what about the
upper GI?

My thinking is simply that drinking sugary acidic non-nutritional empty
calories has no benefit to the functioning of the human body and, on the
other hand, has the potential for doing damage----so why drink it at all?

> The point is you assumed that all ascorbic acid tablets have sugar and I'm
> telling you it is beyond easy to find some that have no sugar whatsoever.

I did not assume that all ascorbic acid tablets have sugar, but all of
the chewable ones for children easily available certainly do. I'd guess
some now might have artificial sweetners and colors, too. Why not poison
our children with more non-nutritional laboratory manufactured
chemicals? But I digress.

I'm glad you were able to find the healthy altenative for your little(r)
critters.

Can we move on, now?

--LB

--
Dr. Larry Bickford, O.D.
Family Practice Eye Health & Vision Care

The Eyecare Connection
http//www.eyecarecontacts.com
larrydoc at eye-care-contacts dot com (remove -)

December 6th 03, 02:37 PM
Among carbonated drinks, it is usually only some colas that contain the
addition of phosphoric acid. If your kids aren't drinking colas, the
carbonic acid is unlike to harm their teeth as much as the sugar would.

An old experiment that I used to do when I was a kid was to leave a lost
tooth in a glass of Coca-Cola overnight in a glass and the next day, it was
gone. Since the glass only had flat Coke in it (that I dared not taste) and
no coin, according to empirical principles, the Tooth Fairy didn't take it,
the Coke dissolved it.

What can you learn from this? Don't let your kids go to bed with a mouthful
of Coke unless they promise to swallow well before morning. I would also
make sure that their two-liter teddybears were empty when you tuck them in.
--
Ferris Germane >

"Robyn Kozierok" > wrote in message
...
>
> My children's dentist just told me not to ever let my kids have any
> carbonated drinks because carbonation is "pure evil" because the
> carbonic acid produced by carbonation erodes teeth. I find this
> hard to believe. I can see that sugary carbonated drinks would have
> the same issues as other sugary liquids, but he claims that even
> plain seltzer (which my 2yo loves to share with me) has this problem.
> This seems more like a wives' tale than good science to me.
> But I can't seem to find anything authoritative based on a quick
> google search. Most studies seem to relate to sugared soft drinks.
> Even though seltzer is slightly acidic due to the carbonic acid,
> so is orange juice and probably other non-carbonated beverages.
> You don't soak your teeth in either one. Anyone know the real
> scoop on this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> --Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)
>