Did you get your kids a flu shot?

[Laura E. Brooks]

Hi guys,

I'm a little worried about the flu. I live in NC, which isn't one of the
states currently designated an "epidemic" state, but it does have heavy
regional outbreaks in some areas. Last year, the kids got something which I
assume was the flu, and I've never seen them so knocked out. They lay on
the couch with high fevers for a week. This year it sounds like it could be
even worse.

Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
pretty shot-phobic. I found out that I could get them the flu mist vaccine
(up the nose) if I drive 40 miles and pay $55 each. It might just be worth
it to me, but has anybody here used that? Did your kids get sick from the
vaccine? If so, how badly and for how long? Does it confer as much
resistance as the traditional shot? And for that matter, are either worth
getting at this point, since the strain seems to have mutated?

Laura
Mom to Sarah, 3/5/95 and Jonathan 8/24/97

[Karen G]

Considering the age of your kids, I probably wouldn't drive that far for
the mist. They are old enough to understand the cause effect of the
vaccine and to remember their bout with the flu last year.

Is anyone still doing the carbon dioxide delivery? I actually got my
flu shot that way one year. It made my arm a lot more sore, but I
didn't have to see a needle.

I consider the flu shot a modern miracle, because I dehydrate easily
when I run a fever. I take the shot so that I don't end up in the
emergency room. Children as young as six months can receive the flu
shot (it is given in two doses the first time). There after, they can
receive the standard shot. That reminds me, I need to take my son in
for his second shot.

In regard to this years' shot, it appears that the power of prediction
was pretty limited this year. Every year, the powers that be choose a
set of strains that are most likely to be in the germ pool. They missed
the one that is becoming an epidemic. At the same time, the shot may
reduce the severity of other strains. I am not sure if that is the case
this time.

Karen G

[Bruce and Jeanne]

Laura E. Brooks wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> I'm a little worried about the flu. I live in NC, which isn't one of the
> states currently designated an "epidemic" state, but it does have heavy
> regional outbreaks in some areas. Last year, the kids got something which I
> assume was the flu, and I've never seen them so knocked out. They lay on
> the couch with high fevers for a week. This year it sounds like it could be
> even worse.
>
> Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
> pretty shot-phobic. I found out that I could get them the flu mist vaccine
> (up the nose) if I drive 40 miles and pay $55 each. It might just be worth
> it to me, but has anybody here used that? Did your kids get sick from the
> vaccine? If so, how badly and for how long? Does it confer as much
> resistance as the traditional shot? And for that matter, are either worth
> getting at this point, since the strain seems to have mutated?
>
> Laura
> Mom to Sarah, 3/5/95 and Jonathan 8/24/97
>
>

I just got the flu shot this afternoon (only 40 doses left today). My 6
year old daughter has gotten the flu shot every year for the last two or
three years. Call me paranoid, but I figure it's an easy thing to do at
her annual check-up (she has a late October birthday).

I heard that the flu-mist may actually be more effective because that's
how many people get the flu (they breathe in the germs)? But I haven't
really a clue - I'm not a doctor, nurse or a medical researcher.

The news said that one of the three strains in the flu vaccine provides
partial protection against the virulent strain going around.

I am most worried about DS, who's only 6 months old. He got the first
shot two weeks ago (at his 6 month appointment), but the supply will
have certainly run out in a month. The nurse did say that even a single
dose provides some protection. I'm hoping to reserve a dose for DS at
our pediatrician.

Neither child showed any reaction to the shots, other than the initial
"ouch".

Jeanne

[Penny Gaines]

Laura E. Brooks wrote in >:

> Hi guys,
>
> I'm a little worried about the flu. I live in NC, which isn't one of the
> states currently designated an "epidemic" state, but it does have heavy
> regional outbreaks in some areas. Last year, the kids got something which
[snip]

In the UK, children are not in the recommended group for getting the
flu shot.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Laura E. Brooks > wrote:
*
*Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
*pretty shot-phobic. I found out that I could get them the flu mist vaccine
*(up the nose) if I drive 40 miles and pay $55 each. It might just be worth
*it to me, but has anybody here used that? Did your kids get sick from the
*vaccine? If so, how badly and for how long? Does it confer as much
*resistance as the traditional shot? And for that matter, are either worth
*getting at this point, since the strain seems to have mutated?

My whole family got vaccinated with the killed vaccine. Both kids (ages 3
and 1 year) were naive vaccinates who required booster shots 28 days
following initial vaccination. They got their boosters about 3 weeks ago I
think, maybe 2, I don't really remember.

My understanding is that the attenuated virus vaccine may actually provide
better immunity against the drifted H3N2 strain that's out there this
year, but since it's not approved for kids my kids' ages, I didn't look
into it at all.

It IS (IMO and ItheCDC'sO :)) worth getting vaccinated despite the
antigenic drift which has occurred. There should still be some partial
immunity conferred by the vaccine.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Dad]

Laura E. Brooks said:
>
>Hi guys,
>
>I'm a little worried about the flu. I live in NC, which isn't one of the
>states currently designated an "epidemic" state, but it does have heavy
>regional outbreaks in some areas. Last year, the kids got something which I
>assume was the flu, and I've never seen them so knocked out. They lay on
>the couch with high fevers for a week. This year it sounds like it could be
>even worse.
>
>Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
>pretty shot-phobic. I found out that I could get them the flu mist vaccine
>(up the nose) if I drive 40 miles and pay $55 each.

Are there any kids that age that aren't afraid of shots?
I wouldn't drive that far without being sure that they will
give the attenuated virus to kids of your ages.

Since his last mandated vaccination at age 6, my 8yo had felt
secure in the knowledge that he wasn't scheduled for another
shot until he was in high school, which is practically grown
up. We had warned him that there might be circumstances that
would require a shot, but he seemed confident that he could
avoid stepping on rusty nails, etc.

So he wasn't happy about having to stand in line for four
hours to get a flu shot, particularly since he didn't have
the flu ("Really Dad, I was just sniffling because I breathed
some dust!"). But he made me proud.

I had gotten my own shot a few weeks ago, when I was in the
Dr's office to complain about getting old, and had planned
to make an appointment to get him and my wife in for shots,
but by the time I got around to it, they were out of vaccine
and directed us to a supermarket that would be giving shots
from noon until 6pm on Sunday.

We arrived at 11am to find a line winding through the store.
By noon, it was out the door and around the corner. He was
too nervous to concentrate on his GameBoy (or to let me read
my book), so I entertained him by sending him down the aisle
beside us to see if he could find some particular brand or to
report back the number of ounces in the largest juice bottle,
etc. From time to time he would ask me to pinch him again to
remind him what it would feel like, but he never griped.

Unlike the kids a little bit behind us in line, he never ran
up and down the aisles bumping into people, kicked or spilled
drinks on anybody or knocked over any displays, either.
Maybe it was the contrast that made two parties independently
gush about how well he behaved.

In the end, it hurt a little more than my pinches had, but
not enough to bring tears or any serious complaints. He's
willing to get another next year, if I remember to take him
to the doctor, so we don't have to wait in line for so long.

[Marijke]

Yes, they all have been getting the flu shot for several years. Two of my
three children are asthmatic as am I. I know of very few kids who don't
fear shots to some extent and to me, these things are not optional so I play
Mean Mom and physically make them get the shots when they are young enough
to fight it. I had one child really kicking up a fuss when he was about 5.
As he got the shot, he sat there and looked at me and said "hey, that didn't
hurt at all." He then got into the van, shaking his head saying "wow, that
really didn't hurt."

Now, that they are older and able to understand more clearly, I compare the
vaccine to a seatbelt. I tell them that a seatbelt doesn't guarantee that
they won't die in a car accident, but it sure lessens the possibility. The
vaccine doesn't guarantee you won't get the flu, but it lessens the chances
and if you do get the (covered) flu, then it should be a lesser version.
They still don't like getting the shots, they still complain about it
(albeit more in a "must complain, this is what we should do" vein), but they
don't argue it. Next year, as my 16 yr old will be a year older, I told him
it will be his choice as to whether or not he gets it. He knows I prefer
that he get it (he's the one child that's not asthmatic) and I'll pay for
it, but I'm not going to force him.

Obviously, every family is different but, as I said, in our family, it was
not optional. I end up in emergency in a severe mess every time I get an
infection in my lungs and this is nothing to fool around with.

Marijke, in Montreal
Mean Mom to three (ages 16, 14 and 12)


"Laura E. Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> Hi guys,
>
> I'm a little worried about the flu. I live in NC, which isn't one of the
> states currently designated an "epidemic" state, but it does have heavy
> regional outbreaks in some areas. Last year, the kids got something which
I
> assume was the flu, and I've never seen them so knocked out. They lay on
> the couch with high fevers for a week. This year it sounds like it could
be
> even worse.
>
> Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
> pretty shot-phobic. I found out that I could get them the flu mist
vaccine
> (up the nose) if I drive 40 miles and pay $55 each. It might just be
worth
> it to me, but has anybody here used that? Did your kids get sick from the
> vaccine? If so, how badly and for how long? Does it confer as much
> resistance as the traditional shot? And for that matter, are either worth
> getting at this point, since the strain seems to have mutated?
>
> Laura
> Mom to Sarah, 3/5/95 and Jonathan 8/24/97
>
>

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >, Dad wrote:
> Are there any kids that age that aren't afraid of shots?
> I wouldn't drive that far without being sure that they will
> give the attenuated virus to kids of your ages.

My 7-year-old son has never been afraid of shots. He finds them
somewhat uncomfortable, as do most people, but doesn't think about
them ahead of time or try to avoid them.

I suspect that the the major fear that many children show of shots is
a learned behavior, not an innate one. Having siblings, parents,
friends, or TV characters showing fear or going out of their way to
pretend that "there is nothing to it" may be enough to have kids
learn that there is something to fear.

I got my shot about a month ago (I lost my spleen in a bike accident a
few years ago, so am at higher risk for pneumonia, so I try to get a
flu shot at the beginning of each flu season), and the rest of my
family is scheduled to get shots on Wed.


--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Scott]

My kids won't be getting a flu shot. At one point in the past,
flu shots were given at our church, and I had one then, and if
they were offered, I'd get one, and probably have the kids have
one too. I don't see the need to go out of my way to innoculate
them when in the past flu has not really affected us.

In the meantime, we'll practice good hygiene, eat healthily,
and get enough sleep. I think that's just as important as
a shot.

Scott DD 10.4 and DS 7.8, really at netscape dot net, hoping
I don't jinx the good health of my family by sending this ;)

[Marijke]

"Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Dad wrote:

> I suspect that the the major fear that many children show of shots is
> a learned behavior, not an innate one. Having siblings, parents,
> friends, or TV characters showing fear or going out of their way to
> pretend that "there is nothing to it" may be enough to have kids
> learn that there is something to fear.
>

I don't know that I agree. My oldest wasn't exposed to others getting shots
and he screamed and cried from day one. My other two were taken to the dr
separately from their older sibling and they, too, went nuts at the thought
of getting a shot.

Marijke

[Rosalie B.]

"Marijke" > wrote:

>
>"Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, Dad wrote:
>
>> I suspect that the the major fear that many children show of shots is
>> a learned behavior, not an innate one. Having siblings, parents,
>> friends, or TV characters showing fear or going out of their way to
>> pretend that "there is nothing to it" may be enough to have kids
>> learn that there is something to fear.
>>
>
>I don't know that I agree. My oldest wasn't exposed to others getting shots
>and he screamed and cried from day one. My other two were taken to the dr
>separately from their older sibling and they, too, went nuts at the thought
>of getting a shot.
>
I think this is both learned and innate. Some folks are more
sensitive and fearful and some are more stoic. I do think that
children pick up on their parent's fears even when the fears aren't
directly expressed - saying stuff like "be a brave boy", and "It won't
hurt" are clues that the parent is nervous about it and thinks it WILL
hurt.

I don't LIKE shots, but I had allergy shots 3x a week (which my dad
gave me) until I was about 12, and I have often had things done like
lancing a boil without anesthetic and I don't consider myself
particularly stoic, but I didn't pitch a fit either.

My oldest had her blood drawn fairly often as a toddler because they
said she was anemic. She also had some teeth pulled without
anesthetic when she was about 7. (I didn't know that they were going
to do this that way in advance.) OTOH, her sister is very medical
procedure phobic. In WWII there were often GIs who would faint at the
sight of a needle, and there are people that can't stand the sight of
blood.

grandma Rosalie

[Marijke]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
> "Marijke" > wrote:
>
> >
>> children pick up on their parent's fears even when the fears aren't
> directly expressed - saying stuff like "be a brave boy", and "It won't
> hurt" are clues that the parent is nervous about it and thinks it WILL
> hurt.
>

Agreed, but we never did that. I remember bringing my kid in with a very
matter-of-fact attitude. Ok, it's time for your check up. Oh. The doctor is
about to give you a shot. Oh, did that hurt a bit? It will stop hurting
soon. Ok, on to the next thing.

I know it sounds odd, but that's the way we did it and they were still all
fearful of it.

Marijke

[Louise]

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:47:15 EST, "Rosalie B."
> wrote:

> "Marijke" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Kevin Karplus" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >, Dad wrote:
>>
>>> I suspect that the the major fear that many children show of shots is
>>> a learned behavior, not an innate one. Having siblings, parents,
>>> friends, or TV characters showing fear or going out of their way to
>>> pretend that "there is nothing to it" may be enough to have kids
>>> learn that there is something to fear.
>>>
>>
>>I don't know that I agree. My oldest wasn't exposed to others getting shots
>>and he screamed and cried from day one. My other two were taken to the dr
>>separately from their older sibling and they, too, went nuts at the thought
>>of getting a shot.
>>
>I think this is both learned and innate. Some folks are more
>sensitive and fearful and some are more stoic. I do think that
>children pick up on their parent's fears even when the fears aren't
>directly expressed - saying stuff like "be a brave boy", and "It won't
>hurt" are clues that the parent is nervous about it and thinks it WILL
>hurt.

Our 16yo was complaining the other day about something to do with
people who give her shots taking a long time to do it. I asked if she
makes any requests about how she'd like the shot, and she said that
had never occurred to her. When I get shots (just like when I go to
the dentist, or have any other uncomfortable or unpleasant procedure)
I tell the practitioner what would make it easier for me, and
generally they co-operate. (For example, for shots I always ask to
have them on my non-dominant arm. I say that I'm a big wimp, I don't
want to watch, and I want to be distracted.)

If part of a child's distress about shots is about not being in
control, then maybe helping him or her to find words to take
appropriate control would alleviate some of the distress.

Louise

[Laura E. Brooks]

> I suspect that the the major fear that many children show of shots is
> a learned behavior, not an innate one. Having siblings, parents,

I don't think so, for her. She has a really low pain threshhold in general
and hates going to the Dr. office in general. She was in pieces recently
just from being swabbed for a strep test. My son isn't that concerned.
When I was a kid, I wasn't that scared of them, but my brother would hide
under the Dr. desk! I think it's just an individual thing.

Laura

[Elizabeth Gardner]

In article >,
Scott > wrote:

> My kids won't be getting a flu shot. At one point in the past,
> flu shots were given at our church, and I had one then, and if
> they were offered, I'd get one, and probably have the kids have
> one too. I don't see the need to go out of my way to innoculate
> them when in the past flu has not really affected us.
>
> In the meantime, we'll practice good hygiene, eat healthily,
> and get enough sleep. I think that's just as important as
> a shot.
>
> Scott DD 10.4 and DS 7.8, really at netscape dot net, hoping
> I don't jinx the good health of my family by sending this ;)
>

Maybe it's just coincidence, but the one year I had a flu shot was also
the year I came down with the worst flu I'd ever had. This was maybe
five years ago. I haven't had a shot since (not purposely avoiding it,
but haven't had an easy opportunity) and I haven't had the flu since.
If I were in a high-risk group I would probably get the shot.

[Nevermind]

Noone in my immediate family has ever gotten a flu shot. Until this
year, I thought it was really just for "at-risk" people. But this
year, with all the media coverage and the new rec. to have babies
vaccinated routinely, I did decide to go ahead and get it for just the
baby (11 months), but not my 8 YO or 5 YO. However, my ped's office is
inundated with calls from people like me, so I can't get the baby in
for a shot until Dec. 26! Since she will need a booster 4 weeks later,
she won't really be immunized until the end of january.

I could alternatively go to a free clinic that supposedly has the shot
available. I'm really not sure whether it's worth it to drive way out
of my neighborhood and probably wait in a room full of sick people for
hours for this shot.

I spoke to my ped about it, and she said that she did not see any
reason to believe that this year's flu was particularly bad, which is
why the practice decided against adding on staff to accomodate the
unusual number of requests for the shot that occurred after the
Colorado deaths. She pointed out that, sadly, there are casualties
every year. She felt that it would be worth it to get the baby
vaccinated in late December, as currently scheduled, but that there
was no pressing need for me to get her done right away.

I'm really on the fence. . . We've had a very sick fall already around
here, which has made me more nervous than I'd usually be about a
robust 11 MO getting the flu.

[Marijke]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
> "Marijke" > wrote:
>
> >
>> children pick up on their parent's fears even when the fears aren't
> directly expressed - saying stuff like "be a brave boy", and "It won't
> hurt" are clues that the parent is nervous about it and thinks it WILL
> hurt.
>

Agreed, but we never did that. I remember bringing my kid in with a very
matter-of-fact attitude. Ok, it's time for your check up. Oh. The doctor is
about to give you a shot. Oh, did that hurt a bit? It will stop hurting
soon. Ok, on to the next thing.

I know it sounds odd, but that's the way we did it and they were still all
fearful of it.

Marijke

[Colleen Porter]

Scott > wrote in message >...
> My kids won't be getting a flu shot. ....I don't see the need to go
> out of my way to innoculate
> them when in the past flu has not really affected us.

Well, thank you for saying that, Scott. It would be easy for someone
to think they were being a negligent parent if they don't get their
kids flu shots every year, and that isn't the case.

In truth, the flu shot is not recommended for low-risk people over age
five or under age 50, and that's the most conservative
recommendations. Unless they've changed their policy recently, the
American Academy of Pediatrics only recommends the flu shot for little
ones from 6 months to 2 years, and some groups recommend the shot only
for seniors over age 60.

Of course there are lots of reasons that put one out of the "low risk"
category, including asthma, heart disease, sickle cell, diabetes,
various kinds of immune system supression, and jobs in health care or
a lot of public contact. The flu shots are a life-saving necessity
for those folks.

We've never gotten flu shots for our kids, and I stopped getting a flu
shot once I was cured of a chronic disease that put me in a higher
risk category.

If every parent in America felt they had to get flu shots for their
kids, then there would be a worse shortage of the vaccine than already
exists.

Colleen Kay Porter

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Nevermind > wrote:

*inundated with calls from people like me, so I can't get the baby in
*for a shot until Dec. 26! Since she will need a booster 4 weeks later,
*she won't really be immunized until the end of january.

My understanding is that the booster just boosts the efficacy from
something like 85% to something like 95%. Can anyone confirm that?

*I spoke to my ped about it, and she said that she did not see any
*reason to believe that this year's flu was particularly bad, which is

!!!!

Really? I think the reasons to consider this flu particularly bad are:
-early onset of high case levels
-increased numbers of complicated pediatric cases
-the major circulating strain is an H3N2 strain, which historically
correlates with more severe disease and more hospitalizations.

So, those are MY reasons for making extra sure to get my family vaccinated
(early and often, ha ha). But seriously, we did get vaccinated early in
the season.

Sure there are casualties every year - but my understanding is that the
H3N2 strains usually cause MORE casualties.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Kevin Karplus]

In article >,
Colleen Porter wrote:
> Scott > wrote
>> My kids won't be getting a flu shot. ....I don't see the need to go
>> out of my way to innoculate
>> them when in the past flu has not really affected us.
>
> Well, thank you for saying that, Scott. It would be easy for someone
> to think they were being a negligent parent if they don't get their
> kids flu shots every year, and that isn't the case.
>
> In truth, the flu shot is not recommended for low-risk people over age
> five or under age 50, and that's the most conservative
> recommendations. Unless they've changed their policy recently, the
> American Academy of Pediatrics only recommends the flu shot for little
> ones from 6 months to 2 years, and some groups recommend the shot only
> for seniors over age 60.

As of their 21 June 2002 press release
[http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/acip.htm], AAP was saying:

"On the other hand, the Academy and ACIP are encouraging that flu
vaccine be given this year to all healthy children aged 6 to 23
months. This age group has a high likelihood of hospitalization if
they get the flu."

> Of course there are lots of reasons that put one out of the "low risk"
> category, including asthma, heart disease, sickle cell, diabetes,
> various kinds of immune system supression, and jobs in health care or
> a lot of public contact. The flu shots are a life-saving necessity
> for those folks.

On their latest update 5 Dec 2003
[http://www.aap.org/sections/infectdis/120503.htm], AAP was saying

"Q. What are the recommendations for use of inactivated influenza
vaccine (injectable)?

- Age 50 or older

- Age 6 months to 49 years with any of the following conditions:

chronic pulmonary disease, including asthma
hemodynamically significant heart disease
immunosuppressive disorders or therapy
hemoglobinopathy
long-term salicylate therapy
chronic renal dysfunction
chronic metabolic disease, including diabetes mellitus
a woman who will be in the 2nd or 3rd trimester of pregnancy
during the influenza season

- Residents of a nursing home or other long term care facility

- Caregivers, or household members in contact with person have
high risk conditions

- All health care workers with patient contact

- providers of home care to children younger than 24 months of age

- Influenza vaccination is encouraged for children 6-23 months
of age and for household contacts of children less than 24
months of age.
"

Note the inclusion of "household members in contact with person have
high risk conditions".

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Bruce and Jeanne]

Marijke wrote:

>
> "Rosalie B." > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Marijke" > wrote:
> >
> > >
> >> children pick up on their parent's fears even when the fears aren't
> > directly expressed - saying stuff like "be a brave boy", and "It won't
> > hurt" are clues that the parent is nervous about it and thinks it WILL
> > hurt.
> >
>
> Agreed, but we never did that. I remember bringing my kid in with a very
> matter-of-fact attitude. Ok, it's time for your check up. Oh. The doctor is
> about to give you a shot. Oh, did that hurt a bit? It will stop hurting
> soon. Ok, on to the next thing.
>
> I know it sounds odd, but that's the way we did it and they were still all
> fearful of it.
>
> Marijke
>

Well, DH, DD and I probably have instilled a fear of needles into DS.
When he went into his 4 month old check-up (it's one with a boatload of
vaccinations), we *ALL* cringed, wailed and looked away when DS got his
shots.

I really hate getting any needles stuck in me. I haven't seemed to
outgrown this fear. Of course I've had the stray idiot who can't seem
to draw blood from me, and moves the needle around while it's in my arm,
all the while blaming MY vessels for their incompetence. That hasn't
helped.

Jeanne

[David desJardins]

Colleen Porter writes:
> If every parent in America felt they had to get flu shots for their
> kids, then there would be a worse shortage of the vaccine than already
> exists.

No, if every person in America felt they needed flu shots, then there
would be enough for everyone. The manufacturers don't make more only
because many people don't get flu shots, and they are running companies
for profit---it costs them money to make vaccine that is then just
thrown away. Unfortunately, the profit-maximizing level of production
isn't the level that maximizes the public health benefit, because the
manufacturers care more about avoiding excess production than about
avoiding shortages. This is just one of many examples of how capitalism
doesn't always produce the best result, particularly in health care and
other areas of inelastic demand. The shortage is certainly a public
health problem, but the solution is for the government to ensure that
there is enough vaccine, through regulation of the manufacturers.

David desJardins

[David desJardins]

Scott writes:
> I don't see the need to go out of my way to innoculate them when in
> the past flu has not really affected us.

Of course, most people aren't affected in most years by the flu---it's a
disease that makes a few people very sick, not a disease that makes a
lot of people mildly sick. Tetanus probably has not really affected you
either, but I guess that you're willing to get tetanus shots.

Also, even if you don't get very sick from the flu, an important reason
for healthy people to be vaccinated against flu is to avoid passing it
to vulnerable people. Most of the 20,000 or more people who die each
year in the US from influenza are in high-risk groups, but many of them
contract the disease from people not in those groups.

Here's a good summary from the AP of the available research (including
cost-benefit analysis) on the value of flu shots for healthy people.

David desJardins


----------------------------------------------------------------
Study: Flu vaccine good for all adults

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Despite the cost, even healthy adults benefit from
an annual flu shot because they don't lose as much work time and they
spend less on treatment, according to a study.

Researchers also found that once people get the flu, antiviral medicine
started within 48 hours of seeing symptoms was also worth the expense in
terms of making the patients feel better and getting them back to work,
according to the study in Tuesday's Annals of Internal Medicine.

"Given that typically the complications of influenza within the healthy
population are so low, it was somewhat surprising," said Dr. Patrick
Lee, a Stanford University resident and the study's lead author.

The government currently recommends the vaccine only for the elderly,
the chronically ill and pregnant women, though it is available to others
who want it.

The researchers stopped short of recommending that the general
population get vaccinated for the flu, citing recent vaccine shortages
that surely would worsen in such a case.

On average, a person who comes down with the flu loses 2.8 days at work,
meaning about 398 dollars in lost wages, the study concluded, based on
previous studies and Labor Department statistics.

Researchers said that visiting a doctor and getting a flu shot would
save about $30. Using one of three symptom-shortening antiviral
medications resulted in similar savings.

While flu vaccine is beneficial to healthy adults and may get them back
to work sooner, the priority should be vaccinating more of the
highest-risk people, flu expert Dr. Carolyn Bridges at the federal
Centers for Disease Control said.

"When you look at vaccination of healthy adults, the bulk of economic
benefit is decreased absenteeism; the benefit for the elderly is reduced
medical costs and fewer complications that require hospitalization," she
said. "That's something important we need to consider when we're
allocating our resources."

The study's authors acknowledged a potential drawback to the research:
It used computers to simulate the impact of a flu season on a "virtual"
group of healthy people between 18 and 50, using statistics on flu
severity and treatment efficacy from previously published research.

However, Lee said, flu strains, severity, location and timing vary so
widely from year to year that a computer model likely provides a better
snapshot than a real-world analysis.

In an average year, more than 100,000 Americans are hospitalized with
the flu and about 20,000 die from flu-related complications, according
to the CDC.
----------------------------------------------------------------

[Nevermind]

"Laura E. Brooks" > wrote in message >...
> Hi guys,
>
> I'm a little worried about the flu.
>[snip]
> Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
> pretty shot-phobic.

Well, it's a moot point for all of us who were on the fence now, as
the supply is gone! It feels wrong to me that so many people who were
not even recommended to get it (healthy adults and older kids) got it,
thus in effect preventing many of those who are recommended from
getting it (the very young, old, and infirm) from doing so.

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
Nevermind > wrote:
>"Laura E. Brooks" > wrote in message
>...
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I'm a little worried about the flu.
>>[snip]
>> Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
>> pretty shot-phobic.
>
>Well, it's a moot point for all of us who were on the fence now, as
>the supply is gone! It feels wrong to me that so many people who were
>not even recommended to get it (healthy adults and older kids) got it,
>thus in effect preventing many of those who are recommended from
>getting it (the very young, old, and infirm) from doing so.


Hopefully, most people who really needed it got it back in October.
I know around here, most of the people who are at risk are highly
encouraged to get the shot early (to protect against both early
outbreaks and any potential shortages).

Also keep in mind that family contacts of people at risk are also
advised to get the shot. Only my youngest is "at risk" but we all got
the shot, mainly to protect him. This is in accordance with the
official recommendations. At the time when we got vaccinated, the
weren't expecting any shortages, nor rationing the vaccine in any way.
(By contrast, in prior years when they were expecting shortages, they
were making the vaccine available only to the highest risk groups at
first, expanding as the season went on.)

--Robyn

[David desJardins]

Nevermind writes:
> Well, it's a moot point for all of us who were on the fence now, as
> the supply is gone!

This isn't really accurate. All of the US vaccine supply has been
distributed by the manufacturers. That means you can't get any more
from them, but there are still many doses at various points in the
distribution chain.

> It feels wrong to me that so many people who were not even recommended
> to get it (healthy adults and older kids) got it, thus in effect
> preventing many of those who are recommended from getting it (the very
> young, old, and infirm) from doing so.

It's unfortunate that there's a shortage, but the underlying reason is
that the manufacturers cut back production from previous years, in order
to save money. Furthermore, the CDC distribution plan is for high-risk
subjects to have priority for receiving vaccine in October or early
November, to ensure that they all have access (and to give them maximum
protection throughout the flu season), and then to vaccinate the general
population more broadly in November and December, until the supply is
used up. This certainly seems better than just throwing away millions
of doses, as happened in previous years.

David desJardins

[Laura E. Brooks]

> > Personally, I've already had a flu shot, but my kids (especially DD) are
> > pretty shot-phobic.
>
> Well, it's a moot point for all of us who were on the fence now, as
> the supply is gone! It feels wrong to me that so many people who were

Hi, I'm the OP. As it ended up, we didn't take the long drive for the mist.
My daughter finally agreed to just get the shot (OK, I bribed her). They
still had shots available at our health department, for children only, so
I'd made an appt for today. She was really just so scared - she sat in my
lap and was crying. Then the lady gave her the shot and we said, "All done,
great job" and she couldn't believe it was over! She admitted to me later
she didn't even FEEL it! She's now giddy with relief.

I'm really glad we did it this way, because now I think she will get over
that fear for the most part. She had been so upset about it, though, the
post-shot adrenaline rush made her feel faint and nauseous and it took a
minute to get over that.

My son was supposed to get vaccinated, too, but unfortunately, he's already
sick. :-( We don't know if it's the flu or not - in some ways it's
flu-like, but he doesn't seem to have the aches and pains associated. They
took some blood from him. Talk about stoic! He just sat there and let them
do it (I shielded his eyes, telling him it was a lot easier if he just
didn't look). He's taking Tamiflu just in case. When his fever is down, he
hardly seems sick.

Laura

[Scott]

Laura E. Brooks wrote:

>
> They
> took some blood from him. Talk about stoic! He just sat there and let them
> do it (I shielded his eyes, telling him it was a lot easier if he just
> didn't look).

I well recall when DD had her blood drawn -- I think she was
3ish -- for a lead test (that she failed, but that's another
post). She was on my lap, and I had my hand over her eyes
so she wouldn't look, and I watched as the technician moved
the needle all around under DD's skin, trying to find the
vein. Of course, by this time, DD is squirming and crying.
The needle stick itself didn't really bother her.

Next time, the pediatric phlebotomist did the job. First
stick in she found the vein. Moral: If there's a pediatric
phlebotomist around, they should do the blood draw. :)


Scott, really at netscape dot net, DD 10.5 and DS 7.8

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>Next time, the pediatric phlebotomist did the job. First
>stick in she found the vein. Moral: If there's a pediatric
>phlebotomist around, they should do the blood draw. :)

My son had an awful time with a blood draw a while ago, but it was definitely
NOT the phlebotomists' fault (it took two of them, one helping to hold him
down!). I thought it was just wonderful how fast they were able to do it, and
he had no bruising afterwards, either.

--Helen

[Rosalie B.]

Bruce and Jeanne > wrote:

>Marijke wrote:
>
>>
>> "Rosalie B." > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Marijke" > wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> >> children pick up on their parent's fears even when the fears aren't
>> > directly expressed - saying stuff like "be a brave boy", and "It won't
>> > hurt" are clues that the parent is nervous about it and thinks it WILL
>> > hurt.
>> >
>>
>> Agreed, but we never did that. I remember bringing my kid in with a very
>> matter-of-fact attitude. Ok, it's time for your check up. Oh. The doctor is
>> about to give you a shot. Oh, did that hurt a bit? It will stop hurting
>> soon. Ok, on to the next thing.
>>
>> I know it sounds odd, but that's the way we did it and they were still all
>> fearful of it.

Well they are probably among those that are more sensitive than stoic
(which I said in the first part of what I wrote).

>>
>> Marijke
>>
>
>Well, DH, DD and I probably have instilled a fear of needles into DS.
>When he went into his 4 month old check-up (it's one with a boatload of
>vaccinations), we *ALL* cringed, wailed and looked away when DS got his
>shots.
>
>I really hate getting any needles stuck in me. I haven't seemed to
>outgrown this fear. Of course I've had the stray idiot who can't seem
>to draw blood from me, and moves the needle around while it's in my arm,
>all the while blaming MY vessels for their incompetence. That hasn't
>helped.

It has been a very long time since the phlebotomists (or actually
doctors and nurses who seem to have a lot more trouble) can actually
get blood from me without digging around. I once had to have a
solution injected to check for kidney stones (which I didn't have) and
the doc ruptured the vein in my right elbow half way through - he then
tried and failed in my left elbow, the back of my right hand, the back
of my left hand, and my right foot. At that point, fortunately, he
went and got the corpsman, who did it in my left foot.

I grew up with a dentist who did not give anesthetic, and having to
have lots and lots of shots. I DO like to look - I don't like to be
surprised - and some doctors/nurses aren't comfortable with that.


grandma Rosalie

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes

Scott > wrote:

>Laura E. Brooks wrote:
>
>>
>> They
>> took some blood from him. Talk about stoic! He just sat there and let them
>> do it (I shielded his eyes, telling him it was a lot easier if he just
>> didn't look).

I don't agree that it is easier if you don't look. I hated being told
to look away as a child - I always insisted on looking. I don't like
being surprised.
>
>I well recall when DD had her blood drawn -- I think she was
>3ish -- for a lead test (that she failed, but that's another
>post). She was on my lap, and I had my hand over her eyes
>so she wouldn't look, and I watched as the technician moved
>the needle all around under DD's skin, trying to find the
>vein. Of course, by this time, DD is squirming and crying.
>The needle stick itself didn't really bother her.
>
>Next time, the pediatric phlebotomist did the job. First
>stick in she found the vein. Moral: If there's a pediatric
>phlebotomist around, they should do the blood draw. :)

Yes - doctors that don't do a lot of blood work and nurses also just
don't have the skill that someone who specializes in blood drawing
should have. They are generalists with a lot of skills, but someone
with a lot of experience and a lot of PRACTICE will usually give a
much better result.


grandma Rosalie