ADHD (was: Q: about kindergarten....)

[Leah Adezio]

"Sandi Jones" > wrote in message
...

> Many patients are given a Dx with FAR less testing that it sounds like
> you have gone through.

Again, please provide citations for this specific claim.

>I know people who have gotten the drive through
> Dx's for their kids. (and it revolts me!)

Proof, please.
>
> It sounds like your child actually got an evaluation that actually took
> enough time to try to screen out other possibilities.

And any child can -- because under federal law governing testing for IEPs,
this is what the process entails. My child was certainly not unique in
this.

Here, in
> Cincinnati, we had media ads for a medical practice that specializes in
> the treatment of ADD/ADHD. If I believed the criterion given in their
> ads, 99% of the population needs their care. By listening to their ads,
> it sounded like they gave out Concerta, Ritalin etc like candy on
> Halloween!

A private practice, not evaluations through the public school system.

And funny, the ads I see for private practices such as this promote
*non*medication 'alternatives', usually featuring unproven 'techniques' like
eye training and the like. The ads I see usually are geared to parents who
are often woefully misinformed about legitimate treatment methodologies and
often fall prey to 'specialists' who are *not* doctors, nor
psychologists or psychiatrists or even social workers.
>
> As for my knowledge of ADD/ADHD, there WERE Drs who did claim that son
> #1 did have ADHD, and others who disagreed. If he did indeed have
> ADD/ADHD, I would say that he was one of the group that was better off
> without the meds. I have seen a few kids well served by meds, and others
> that *I* would consider abused by the use of the drugs.

No one here is saying that every ADHDer needs medication as part of an
overall treatment plan....not by a long shot. Many ADHDers do quite fine
without them. Some don't. Each patient is unique.

> I have known
> parents who simply find it *easier* to deal with little Jr when he is
> stoned.

Parents of ADHDers would, I'm afraid, consider an overgeneralization like
this as appearing to be deliberately confrontational. My child is *not*
"stoned"...nor do children who are ADHD and who use medication as part
of a treatment plan even *appear* "stoned".

Again, what you're talking about, if true, is a problem with the *parent*,
not with the child, nor with the schools.
>
> Well, until you have been in, or known someone whose child is forbidden
> from attending a public school unless they are medicated as the
> school/district sees fit, I ask you not to judge the parents who are
> faced with that situation. They can do this to students without a
> serious disciplinary record. (They can kick your kid out, then prosecute
> you for truancy violations!)

Under ADA (again, federal law), a child with a disability *cannot* be
disciplined on basis of disability alone, so no, they *cannot* do what you
describe.

Since you have yet to provide even *one* citation to support these claims, I
seriously doubt the validity of them.

Check out the text of the ADA. Check out the criteria for IDEA and the
processes for the totality of the evaluation process and parental/student
rights for IEPs.

Get informed with facts, not media-induced hysterical pablum.

Leah

[Sandi Jones]

Leah Adezio wrote:

> Again, please provide citations for this specific claim.
> Proof, please.

My posts with more detailed had to be censored as they had TOO much
detail. I am not rewriting them at this juncture. Suffice to say I know
a few too many stoned kids, and I refuse to allow my kids to take
innappropriet drugs. And If you choose to believe that state schools
don't try to overstep their bounds that you are sadly mistaken.

> And funny, the ads I see for private practices such as this promote
> *non*medication 'alternatives', usually featuring unproven 'techniques' like
> eye training and the like....

I have seen this type of snake oil as well.

>>I have known parents who simply find it *easier* to deal with little Jr when he is
>>stoned.
>
> Parents of ADHDers would, I'm afraid, consider an overgeneralization like
> this as appearing to be deliberately confrontational.

I *did not* say that all parents of medicated children kept their
children stoned for easy handling, *but* I have met parents, some I know
quite intimately that do just that!

> Under ADA (again, federal law), a child with a disability *cannot* be
> disciplined on basis of disability alone, so no, they *cannot* do what you
> describe.

Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that laws are not broken. People
have to sue for their basic rights everyday.
>
> Since you have yet to provide even *one* citation to support these claims, I
> seriously doubt the validity of them.

As the privacy policy of this group prohibits me from posting anything
too explicit, I cannot post copies of the court decrees, or the original
decrees from the school.

If you believe that the government is always out to help you, and no
branch of government could ever reach out to hurt you, I wish you the
best with you naive views.

Sandi Jones

[chiam margalit]

Sandi Jones > wrote in message >...
> Leah Adezio wrote:
>
> > Again, please provide citations for this specific claim.
> > Proof, please.
>
> My posts with more detailed had to be censored as they had TOO much
> detail.

Censored? Even I, who abhor the moderation policy on this newsgroup,
am taken aback by the term censored. Methinks that shows your
prejudices fairly clearly.

I am not rewriting them at this juncture. Suffice to say I know
> a few too many stoned kids,

I know stoned kids, too. The smoke pot, they use crack, or other
illegal drugs. Kids who have ADHD and take medication appropriately
are NOT stoned, and I take *extreme* offense at this characterization.

and I refuse to allow my kids to take
> innappropriet drugs.

And with all those years of practicing medicine Sandi, you're an
expert at judging what an appropriate drug is? You didn't even know
that there were meds beyond Ritalin. Your information is years and
years behind the times and I'm sorry, but it's irrelevant to any
cogent discussion of the treatment of ADD/ADHD in the year 2004. You
just do not know any of the current facts.

And If you choose to believe that state schools
> don't try to overstep their bounds that you are sadly mistaken.

State schools? Uh, I'm not sure where YOU live, but when I live, we
don't have state schools. A state school would refer to a reform
school. Is this what you're implying?
>
> > And funny, the ads I see for private practices such as this promote
> > *non*medication 'alternatives', usually featuring unproven 'techniques' like
> > eye training and the like....
>
> I have seen this type of snake oil as well.
>
> >>I have known parents who simply find it *easier* to deal with little Jr when he is
> >>stoned.

Again, this is an extremely offensive and loaded word. Children who
are medicated for ADHD are NOT STONED. They are taking a needed
medication, just as a diabetic or a asthmatic child does. There is no
difference.
> >
> > Parents of ADHDers would, I'm afraid, consider an overgeneralization like
> > this as appearing to be deliberately confrontational.
>
> I *did not* say that all parents of medicated children kept their
> children stoned for easy handling, *but* I have met parents, some I know
> quite intimately that do just that!

Sure you have. And I've met kids who are purple and orange. Prove me
wrong.
>
> > Under ADA (again, federal law), a child with a disability *cannot* be
> > disciplined on basis of disability alone, so no, they *cannot* do what you
> > describe.
>
> Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that laws are not broken. People
> have to sue for their basic rights everyday.

Yeah, and schools are lying in wait for law suits because there is
just so much money around to fight unnecessary battles. What color IS
the sky on your planet? On my planet, schools who have a parent they
deem litigious (like me) bend over backwards to keep us from finding
something to sue them for. They would just as soon break an IEP goal
as they would set fire to the cafeteria. It just doen't happen, and
you saying otherwise without a grain of citations makes your words
unbelievable at best.
> >
> > Since you have yet to provide even *one* citation to support these claims, I
> > seriously doubt the validity of them.
>
> As the privacy policy of this group prohibits me from posting anything
> too explicit, I cannot post copies of the court decrees, or the original
> decrees from the school.

No, but you can set up a free web site on yahoo (geocities) and load
up those copies of court decrees for us to see. If you put the link
into a post, moderators cannot and will not stop you from posting it.
So, please, but your website where you mouth is. I really want to see
these court decrees. I bet Leah does too.
>
> If you believe that the government is always out to help you, and no
> branch of government could ever reach out to hurt you, I wish you the
> best with you naive views.

Sandi, nobody is saying that. Government does hurt people sometimes.
But in the US at least, government is NOT out to hurt an entire
population of children with a diagnosed neurological disorder, and
there is not a smidgeon of proof otherwise. We have laws to PROTECT
these children. Why would government go way out of it's way to create
these laws to protect ADHD kids, and then go against their own laws?
Does this make sense to you?

There might be unscrupulous school administrators here and there that
would try and skirt the laws surrounding IDEA, but most school
districts just aren't that stupid. In California, for example, every
single lawsuit against a school system going back many years are
online, including the decisions. California being the largest state in
the US, you can pretty accurately guage what types of law suits are
out there, by school district. You know what? Hardly any of them deal
with ADHD kids at all. The vast majority are against schools that
dragged their feet providing home learning for housebound children.

Marjorie
>
> Sandi Jones

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
chiam margalit > wrote:
>Sandi Jones > wrote in message
>...
>> Leah Adezio wrote:
>>
>> > Under ADA (again, federal law), a child with a disability *cannot* be
>> > disciplined on basis of disability alone, so no, they *cannot* do what you
>> > describe.
>>
>> Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that laws are not broken. People
>> have to sue for their basic rights everyday.
>
>Yeah, and schools are lying in wait for law suits because there is
>just so much money around to fight unnecessary battles. What color IS
>the sky on your planet? On my planet, schools who have a parent they
>deem litigious (like me) bend over backwards to keep us from finding
>something to sue them for. They would just as soon break an IEP goal
>as they would set fire to the cafeteria. It just doen't happen, and
>you saying otherwise without a grain of citations makes your words
>unbelievable at best.

On the other hand, schools who have a parent whom they suspect doesn't
know her rights, and/or whom they believe doesn't have the time,
resources, connections or know-how to sue them, do sometimes try to see
what they can get away with. I know parents who have spent years
trying to get their children's IEP/504 rights upheld. Some gave up and
are now homeschooling. Some still have kids in schools that are
violating their rights. Most don't have the energy/desire/stamina to
actually sue the school district, even when they know they are in the
right.

Claiming that it "just doesn't happen" is just as naive as claiming
that it happens all the time, IMO. While I don't think things today
are anywhere near as bad as Sandi's description of many years ago, my
observation is that things are also not as rosy as you'd like to paint
them.

Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)
--
Support a family business and learn about the technologies underlying
the Internet with the TCP/IP Guide! http://www.tcpipguide.com

For a challenging little arithmetic puzzle for kids and adults alike,
check out http://cgi.wff-n-proof.com/MSQ-Ind/I-1E.htm

[Leah Adezio]

Robyn Kozierok > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> chiam margalit > wrote:
> >Sandi Jones > wrote in message
> >...
> >> Leah Adezio wrote:
> >>
> >> > Under ADA (again, federal law), a child with a disability *cannot* be
> >> > disciplined on basis of disability alone, so no, they *cannot* do
what you
> >> > describe.
> >>
> >> Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that laws are not broken. People
> >> have to sue for their basic rights everyday.
> >
> >Yeah, and schools are lying in wait for law suits because there is
> >just so much money around to fight unnecessary battles. What color IS
> >the sky on your planet? On my planet, schools who have a parent they
> >deem litigious (like me) bend over backwards to keep us from finding
> >something to sue them for. They would just as soon break an IEP goal
> >as they would set fire to the cafeteria. It just doen't happen, and
> >you saying otherwise without a grain of citations makes your words
> >unbelievable at best.
>
> On the other hand, schools who have a parent whom they suspect doesn't
> know her rights, and/or whom they believe doesn't have the time,
> resources, connections or know-how to sue them, do sometimes try to see
> what they can get away with. I know parents who have spent years
> trying to get their children's IEP/504 rights upheld. Some gave up and
> are now homeschooling. Some still have kids in schools that are
> violating their rights. Most don't have the energy/desire/stamina to
> actually sue the school district, even when they know they are in the
> right.

I don't know about other states (though IIRC, it federal law), but in New
Jersey, where my son's first evaluations were done, not only on our first
meeting with the child study team, but every time he was re-evaluated for
services (every three years or sooner if requested or needed), the first
thing the parents are given is a book outlining the laws regarding special
needs students, the evaluation process, and processes for appealing
decisions -- I knew from Day One what my rights were as a parent of a
special needs student, including due process. The book was also required to
list organizations in the state that could either serve as student/parental
advocates and/or assist a parent in asserting their legal rights.

As much as it's the school's responsibility to abide by the law, it's also
the parents' responsibility to know what their rights are in regards to the
law and their children...and my district and state gave me the tools needed
to know what those rights are.

And if I felt my child's rights were being violated, I would make sure I had
the "energy/desire/stamima" to do whatever it took to make sure they
*weren't* being violated -- anything else is just, IMHO, irresponsible
parenting. If no one else advocates for my child, who will?

Leah

[Leah Adezio]

Sandi Jones > wrote in message
...
>
> Leah Adezio wrote:
>
> > Again, please provide citations for this specific claim.
> > Proof, please.
>
> My posts with more detailed had to be censored as they had TOO much
> detail. I am not rewriting them at this juncture.

IOW, you can't even provide one single link to any reputable web site that
might support your claim. Can't say I'm surprised, really.

>Suffice to say I know
> a few too many stoned kids, and I refuse to allow my kids to take
> innappropriet drugs. And If you choose to believe that state schools
> don't try to overstep their bounds that you are sadly mistaken.

I think your experiences are years outdated. And no, I don't believe that
all schools have every child's best interests at heart, but that's why
parents need to educate themselves, be informed and serve as their child's
advocate.

And funny, for all the years *I've* known ADHDers and their families, I
don't know a single "stoned" kid (and again, moderators, I find this
terminology offensive and deliberately designed to offend by this poster by
terminology that is inflamatory). I have seen children whose dosage wasn't
adjusted properly and children who were better served by different
medications than what they may have been taking at a specific time, but
those problems were usually ironed out pretty quickly -- and these children
were *never* "stoned".
>
> > And funny, the ads I see for private practices such as this promote
> > *non*medication 'alternatives', usually featuring unproven 'techniques'
like
> > eye training and the like....
>
> I have seen this type of snake oil as well.
> > Under ADA (again, federal law), a child with a disability *cannot* be
> > disciplined on basis of disability alone, so no, they *cannot* do what
you
> > describe.
>
> Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that laws are not broken. People
> have to sue for their basic rights everyday.

Do not is not the same as *cannot*. If it's being done, then certainly,
action can be taken, up to and including legal action. I never said schools
never have done so, just that legally, they *can't*, so if it is being
done.......

> >
> > Since you have yet to provide even *one* citation to support these
claims, I
> > seriously doubt the validity of them.
>
> As the privacy policy of this group prohibits me from posting anything
> too explicit, I cannot post copies of the court decrees, or the original
> decrees from the school.

About your specific case, fine. But c'mon, Sandi -- if this is so rampant
as you claim, there has to be at least *one* reputable online source for
this information you've been reporting as fact.
>
> If you believe that the government is always out to help you, and no
> branch of government could ever reach out to hurt you, I wish you the
> best with you naive views.

I assure you, I'm far from naive, my dear. However, I think my experiences,
and those of many other parents here and in my own personal acquaintance,
are far more current than the outdated experiences you claim.

If you can't understand that the world has changed in the past 10-15 years,
then I wish you the best with your head in the sand views.

Leah

[Sandi Jones]

Leah Adezio wrote:

> I think your experiences are years outdated. And no, I don't believe that
> all schools have every child's best interests at heart, but that's why
> parents need to educate themselves, be informed and serve as their child's
> advocate.
>
> And funny, for all the years *I've* known ADHDers and their families, I
> don't know a single "stoned" kid (and again, moderators, I find this
> terminology offensive and deliberately designed to offend by this poster by
> terminology that is inflamatory). I have seen children whose dosage wasn't
> adjusted properly and children who were better served by different
> medications than what they may have been taking at a specific time, but
> those problems were usually ironed out pretty quickly -- and these children
> were *never* "stoned".


> About your specific case, fine. But c'mon, Sandi -- if this is so rampant
> as you claim, there has to be at least *one* reputable online source for
> this information you've been reporting as fact.
>
Suffice to say that I know enough other children who are *still* being
treated this way, but I am not willing to disclose details that may
point fingers to other people's children who are *not* interested in
fighting the system, and are content with the status quo. Personally, it
sickens me to see an energetic teenager on so many meeds that he sits on
the couch huddled up in an afghan more fitting of a 90 year old woman,
than an intelligent, energetic teen. I detest seeing children with all
of their bones sticking out of their flesh, as these drugs rob these
children of hunger, and desire to get any exercise that might help them
to build muscles.

I actually haven't been looking for examples unline, as I have seen too
many in real life to bother looking for sites on it. You ask for a
*reputable unline source*. The *reputable* sites on the subject are
written by drug companies, or doctors who make their money prescribing
these drugs. Do I smell a wee bit of conflict of interest here? Any site
that I would find would probably be written by civil Libertarians, or
other parents abused by the system, not by physicians with a well used
Rx pad. I know that Ritalin is not the only drug. Concerta can be abused
as badly as Ritalin.

I do like your assertion that children on behavior modification drugs
are never stoned. Do you have evidence of *that*? If it is not obvious
that your child is on these types of drugs, maybe the dosage is correct.
If upon first meeting, it is apparent that the child is seriously
impaired, or is stoned, then the dosage, or maybe the entire course of
treatment is inappropriate. With the potential side effects of these
drugs, I'd rather just work on my patience, than stunt their growth, and
get them used to behavior modification in a bottle. I'd rather not teach
them that what they *feel* is wrong, rather, I'd rather teach them to
*control* their behavior. This type of lesson can last a lifetime. Of
course, the lesson to change your feelings from a bottle can have a life
long impact as well, just not the effect that I want for my brood.

Sandi Jones

[iowacookiemom]

Sandi Jones > wrote in message >...

> Personally, it
> sickens me to see an energetic teenager on so many meeds that he sits on
> the couch huddled up in an afghan more fitting of a 90 year old woman,
> than an intelligent, energetic teen. I detest seeing children with all
> of their bones sticking out of their flesh, as these drugs rob these
> children of hunger, and desire to get any exercise that might help them
> to build muscles.

I'm not sure how you can make a claim like that unless you are living
with these children 24/7. IME many, if not most, adolescents have
their days when energy runs low -- and for some of them that may mean
huddling on the couch. That same teen might be bouncing off the walls
in an hour or two. Your observation of a child in a snapshot-type
setting is hardly evidence of the effects of any one aspect of that
child's life.

My son is 11.5 and is well into adolescence, both physically and
emotionally. Often he comes home from school exhausted and "huddles"
for an hour or more to re-charge. After that he is typically in high
spirits and very energetic. But if you were in a habit of coming
'round my house every day about 4 p.m. you might assume he has a
serious health problem. You wouldn't have the complete picture. He's
been like this his whole life, both on and off ADHD meds. It's who he
is, and how his body operates.

Similarly, I know there are some kids who are just skinny. That
doesn't mean they are being mistreated or malnourished.

> treatment is inappropriate. With the potential side effects of these
> drugs, I'd rather just work on my patience,

Believe me, drugs or no there are plenty of opportunities for parents
of ADD/ADHD kids to work on their patience.

> than stunt their growth, and
> get them used to behavior modification in a bottle. I'd rather not teach
> them that what they *feel* is wrong, rather, I'd rather teach them to
> *control* their behavior.

It surprises me that you have had a kid who struggles with this and
yet you would make this statement. ADD/ADHD doesn't have to do with
how a kid *feels* but rather how his brain works. My brain doesn't
work well with my eyes and so I wear glasses. Would you suggest I
just learn to *control* my eyes rather than rely on the artificial
assistance of the glasses?

> This type of lesson can last a lifetime. Of
> course, the lesson to change your feelings from a bottle can have a life
> long impact as well, just not the effect that I want for my brood.

I'm deeply offended by this. You're speaking in absolutes in a
situation where there are very few absolutes. Surely you are not
suggesting that a parent who has chosen to include medication in an
ADD/ADHD child's treatment plan is suggesting to that child that
alcohol and drug abuse are OK. And, I'd respectfully suggest that it
can also have lifelong impact to teach children that there is no
benefit in consulting experts who can help identify and address
challenges, and no benefit in using drug therapies to approach actual
illnesses or conditions.

I'm having difficulty understanding why you are seeming to be so
angry. We've all been challenged by this, at different times in
history it seems. Can't we discuss this helpfully and wouldn't it be
more productive for you to learn how things have changed for the
better since you experienced it?

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 11

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Sandi Jones > wrote:

*point fingers to other people's children who are *not* interested in
*fighting the system, and are content with the status quo. Personally, it

So you know parents who are allowing their children to be inappropriately
medicated, but you feel it is appropriate to do nothing? Now *that* is an
interesting topic for discussion. Is there anyone here who really would
sit idly by while seeing:

*an energetic teenager on so many meeds that he sits on
*the couch huddled up in an afghan more fitting of a 90 year old woman,
*than an intelligent, energetic teen. I detest seeing children with all
*of their bones sticking out of their flesh, as these drugs rob these
*children of hunger, and desire to get any exercise that might help them
*to build muscles.

when you were sure the kids did not actually need those drugs and were not
being treated appropriately? Because honestly that sounds like just
sitting there and watching child abuse instead of reporting it, and I
don't think the readership of m.k.m. is the type who go in for that sort
of behavior. Just MHO of course.

*I do like your assertion that children on behavior modification drugs
*are never stoned. Do you have evidence of *that*? If it is not obvious
*that your child is on these types of drugs, maybe the dosage is correct.

I'm curious what you mean by "stoned." Ritalin and similar drugs don't
cause the kind of deeply relaxed, mellow, passive behavior that I
personally associate with the description of "stoned." Perhaps there's a
basic communication problem here?

*get them used to behavior modification in a bottle. I'd rather not teach

ADD/ADHD drugs aren't "behavior modification in a bottle." Behavior
modification is behavior modification. Drugs are drugs. The two things
generally work best in combination.


--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Leah Adezio]

Sandi Jones > wrote in message
...
> Leah Adezio wrote:
>
> > I think your experiences are years outdated. And no, I don't believe
> > that all schools have every child's best interests at heart, but
> > that's why parents need to educate themselves, be informed and serve
> > as their child's advocate.
> >
> > And funny, for all the years *I've* known ADHDers and their families,
> > I don't know a single "stoned" kid (and again, moderators, I find this
> > terminology offensive and deliberately designed to offend by this
> > poster by terminology that is inflamatory). I have seen children
> > whose dosage wasn't adjusted properly and children who were better
> > served by different medications than what they may have been taking at
> > a specific time, but those problems were usually ironed out pretty
> > quickly -- and these children were *never* "stoned".
> >
> > About your specific case, fine. But c'mon, Sandi -- if this is so
> > rampant as you claim, there has to be at least *one* reputable online
> > source for this information you've been reporting as fact.
>
> Suffice to say that I know enough other children who are *still* being
> treated this way, but I am not willing to disclose details that may
> point fingers to other people's children who are *not* interested in
> fighting the system, and are content with the status quo.

I interpret this as: 'my information is *years* out of date, is purely
ancedotal only, driven by other homeschoolers whose agendas match *mine*
(and that's not a toss at homeschoolers, btw -- only those with attitudes
like Sandi's), and
I have no real proof to back my statements up.

Again, not surprising at all.

> Personally, it sickens me to see an energetic teenager on so many
> meeds that he sits on the couch huddled up in an afghan more fitting
> of a 90 year old woman, than an intelligent, energetic teen. I detest
> seeing children with all of their bones sticking out of their flesh,
> as these drugs rob these children of hunger, and desire to get any
> exercise that might help them to build muscles.

Haven't *ever* seen a child like you describe. *Never*.

> I actually haven't been looking for examples unline, as I have seen
> too many in real life to bother looking for sites on it.

I interpret this as: 'I'm talking out my hat and have no real proof to back
up my outdated claims.'

Again, sooooo not surprised.

> You ask for a *reputable unline source*. The *reputable* sites on the
> subject are written by drug companies, or doctors who make their money
> prescribing these drugs. Do I smell a wee bit of conflict of interest
> here? Any site that I would find would probably be written by civil
> Libertarians, or other parents abused by the system, not by physicians
> with a well used Rx pad.

I interpret this as: 'I'm talking out my hat and have no real proof to back
up my outdated claims.'

> I know that Ritalin is not the only drug. Concerta can be abused as
> badly as Ritalin.

I interpret this as: 'I know that Concerta's time released Ritalin
(basically) and since I'm making up these absurd claims about Ritalin, the
only ADHD med I know about, I feel safe making the same claims about
Concerta'.

> I do like your assertion that children on behavior modification drugs
> are never stoned. Do you have evidence of *that*?

As much as you do your evidence that they *are*. And I never said that,
Sandi. Not at all. I *said* that children on the proper medications and
in proper dosages do not appear "stoned". I also said that if a child
being treated for ADHD is demonstrating behaviors atypical of what one
would expect with proper medication in proper dosage, then it's up to the
parent to advocate to remedy the situation.

If you know kids who *appear* "stoned", then you also know irresponsible
parents who aren't helping their children by getting their tushes back to
the doctor and saying that something's wrong.

> If it is not obvious that your child is on these types of drugs, maybe
> the dosage is correct.

Gee, maybe because I advocate for my child, made darn sure that his meds
*are* correct, that the dosages are monitored carefully and that he also
gets the behavior modification and specialized schooling that he's needed
in the past (and currently no longer needs, though he still has an IEP in
place).

But then again, my son is only a poor, miserable high school senior with a
grade point average of 3.89 in an advanced college prep curriculum, an
honors student *every* quarter that he's been in high school, has SAT's of
620 V and 660 M and is planning on majoring in mechanical engineering and
applying to fairly selective colleges for his major. Yeah, poor pitiful
"stoned" child...and this is on top of coping magnificently with the
sudden death of his father last year.

> If upon first meeting, it is apparent that the child is seriously
> impaired, or is stoned, then the dosage, or maybe the entire course of
> treatment is inappropriate. With the potential side effects of these
> drugs, I'd rather just work on my patience, than stunt their growth,
> and get them used to behavior modification in a bottle.

Now, this is where you truly show your lack of knowledge about what's
fully involved in the treatment of ADHD. Meds are not a 'magic bullet',
nor are they 'behavior modification in a bottle'. They are a tool -- just
*one* of the many tools that are used to help an ADHDer, including
behavior modification, specialized schooling, therapy and so on.

Me, knowing my child has a neurologically-based disorder, I'd rather use
the *full* range of tools available to allow him to be as successful, as
happy, and as normal a kid as possible. And at 5' 11", 180 lbs, I'd
*hardly* say that his growth is stunted (and btw....the NIH research
published within the past 2 years indicates that children who take stim
meds as part of their overall treatment plan for ADHD end up within
approximately 1/4" of what their estimated adult height would have been if
they'd never taken stim meds...but then again, that research is just a bit
too recent for you, I'd wager). Current research by the NIH and NIMH
shows that any growth delay while taking stim meds is temporary -- these
kids catch up to their peers by the time they're done with puberty.

And to imply that those of us who do use meds as part of a treatment plan
are somehow lacking in patience is really quite offensive.

> I'd rather not teach them that what they *feel* is wrong, rather, I'd
> rather teach them to *control* their behavior. This type of lesson can
> last a lifetime. Of course, the lesson to change your feelings from a
> bottle can have a life long impact as well, just not the effect that I
> want for my brood.

Uh-huh. You just go on believing that you're somehow so superior to the
rest of us. Again, your implication that those of us whose children use
meds as part of an overall treatement plan do *not* teach these things, do
not teach our children to control their behavior and somehow 'change their
feelings from a bottle' is just so amazingly offensive that the mind
boggles.

I'd rather give my child a full range of tools at his disposal and help
him understand that ADHD is not some sort of character deficit and allow
him to function with a wide range of peers in the real world than isolate
him at home, shelter him from the 'big bad world' and give him the feeling
that he should be shunned.

Leah

[Karen G]

In article >, "Leah Adezio" >
wrote:

> As much as you do your evidence that they *are*. And I never said that,
> Sandi. Not at all. I *said* that children on the proper medications and
> in proper dosages do not appear "stoned". I also said that if a child
> being treated for ADHD is demonstrating behaviors atypical of what one
> would expect with proper medication in proper dosage, then it's up to the
> parent to advocate to remedy the situation.
>
> If you know kids who *appear* "stoned", then you also know irresponsible
> parents who aren't helping their children by getting their tushes back to
> the doctor and saying that something's wrong.
>
> > If it is not obvious that your child is on these types of drugs, maybe
> > the dosage is correct.
>
> Gee, maybe because I advocate for my child, made darn sure that his meds
> *are* correct, that the dosages are monitored carefully and that he also
> gets the behavior modification and specialized schooling that he's needed
> in the past (and currently no longer needs, though he still has an IEP in
> place).

This issue is not limited to medication prescribed for ADHD type of
problems. A parent can go to the doctor and get an inappropriate or
misfilled prescription for antibiotics or other medication. Every
parent has a responsibility to understand instructions and treatment
plans for their children no matter what type of problem is being
treated. That is the important thing about *knowing* your child well
enough to know what is and is not typical.

It seems to me that some parents who have had bad experiences with the
system tend to generalize other peoples' choices without evaluating all
of the facts. This problem certainly isn't limited to ADHD treatments
though.

Karen G