training bras

[beeswing]

I have a third-grade daughter. A classmate's mother is pushing me to
buy training bras for my daughter, which apparently her daughter
already wears. While it's true my daughter is starting to "bloom,"
she's still young and hasn't shown an interest herself. (I offered a
while back.) My daughter seems like such a kid to me, and I don't want
her teased...either for having one or *not* having one. How does a
parent know when a young girl needs her first bra?

Thanks.

beeswing

[dragonlady]

In article >,
(beeswing) wrote:

> I have a third-grade daughter. A classmate's mother is pushing me to
> buy training bras for my daughter, which apparently her daughter
> already wears. While it's true my daughter is starting to "bloom,"
> she's still young and hasn't shown an interest herself. (I offered a
> while back.) My daughter seems like such a kid to me, and I don't want
> her teased...either for having one or *not* having one. How does a
> parent know when a young girl needs her first bra?
>
> Thanks.
>
> beeswing
>

I've never quite understood the "training bra" concept. Exactly who or
what is in training?

Oh well.

I didn't get bras for my daughters until they asked, or until they were
into at least an A cup and clearly would benefit from one. On the other
hand, both tended to prefer baggy clothes when they were at an age where
they were first likely to need them (not uncommon, by the way). In
third grade I don't think teasing about bras is becoming common yet; by
5th grade, it may be different, and certainly in middle school comments
about underwear and bust sizes are common.

If your daughter isn't interested, and her body doesn't need them, I see
no particular point to getting one. And why on EARTH would her
classmate's mother think it's any of her damned business whether or not
your daughter wears a training bra? I think that is the part of your
post that most got my attention!

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Scott]

beeswing wrote:
> I have a third-grade daughter. A classmate's mother is pushing me to
> buy training bras for my daughter, which apparently her daughter
> already wears.

Sheesh.

To the classmate's mother, say this: "Thank you, but I will buy
it when either daughter or I think it's necessary"

Repeat as necessary.

Scott DD 10.5 and DS 8, rolling my eyes.

[Rosalie B.]

(beeswing) wrote:

>I have a third-grade daughter. A classmate's mother is pushing me to
>buy training bras for my daughter, which apparently her daughter
>already wears. While it's true my daughter is starting to "bloom,"

Has your daughter said anything to HER? Has her daughter said
anything to you? Have you asked your daughter about her daughter (if
they know each other).

>she's still young and hasn't shown an interest herself. (I offered a
>while back.) My daughter seems like such a kid to me, and I don't want
>her teased...either for having one or *not* having one. How does a
>parent know when a young girl needs her first bra?

A young girl doesn't NEED a bra for quite some time.

I hated having a bra and hated the whole growing up bit including
hating stockings and garter belts etc. I wasn't teased about it but
when I was 10, I was molested. My mom hadn't thought I needed a bra
because I certainly didn't need it for support.

So if your daughter isn't interested, just be sure that the fact that
she's blooming doesn't show through. And ask your daughter to talk
about other girls in her class rather than whether she's interested
for herself.


grandma Rosalie

[Penny Gaines]

dragonlady wrote in >:

> If your daughter isn't interested, and her body doesn't need them, I see
> no particular point to getting one. And why on EARTH would her
> classmate's mother think it's any of her damned business whether or not
> your daughter wears a training bra? I think that is the part of your
> post that most got my attention!

It may be nothing to do with Beeswing's daughter, more that the other mum
does not want her own daughter to be the only one wearing a training bra.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Marijke]

"beeswing" > wrote in message
om...
> How does a
> parent know when a young girl needs her first bra?
>
>

When she asks?

Seriously, most girls are self conscious enough that they'll somehow get you
to know that they want one. Or, failing that, there may be a time when you
decide that the subject needs to be brought up. But, if she's comfortable
and you don't see any need for it, time to tell the other mom, thanks for
your concern but we'll do it on our own timeline, thank you.

Marijke
mom to 2 boys (16 and 12) and one girl (15)

[Beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

Regarding the so-called "training bras": Our computer network shut down
shortly after I posted the question, and I hadn't seen any of the
responses at that point. I took the opportunity to swing by a store just
to see what's out there. I found some cotton-spandex "crop bras" (closer
to a bra-shaped undershirt or undershirt-feel bra) in a size small for
cheap and made a choice to buy some for my daughter so she'd have them
if she does want them, whenever that might be.

What actually happened, by the way, was that I got a phone call the
other night from the other mom, whom I don't personally know. She told
me that her daughter had a present for my daughter and would like to
bring it by. (Mind you, these girls are classmates, not best buddies.)
It was Valentine's Day; still, I was surprised but tried to act graceful
about it. I told her that she and her daughter were welcome to come
over. (They'd never even been to our house before.) THEN the women said,
"Don't you want to know what it is?"

You guessed it. A training bra. She had "noticed" my daughter the other
day at school, and *her* daughter wears them, and she thought.... I was
taken aback but didn't know how to react, so I politely said that I was
sure my daughter would like it. (Though I was sure of no such thing.)
Well. the other mom said she'd call right before she came over. In the
interim, I talked to my husband about how I felt (that I didn't know
that my daughter needed them or wanted them and when she did, I wanted
to be the one to buy them not some stranger). He intercepted the lady
when she called back (he's much more direct than I am) and politely told
her, "Thanks but no thanks."

My daughter knows that this girl wanted to give her something that we
didn't accept, but she doesn't know what it is. This week is school
break, but I'll bet dollars to donuts this other kid blabs to my
daughter (and god knows who else) when she gets back to school. I knew
I'd have to deal with this stuff soon somehow, but wasn't quite ready to
, and now I feel forced to...I'll need to talk to my daughter before
this kid does. (By the way, my head wasn't in the sand on this...we had
discussed the issue with my daughter's pediatrician at her last
appointment.)

One other datapoint is apparently my daughter's best friend, who lives
with her dad, asked her dad for some. Her dad, being rather clueless,
brought her to a store, where the girl was told she didn't need them.
There is some sort of social pressure going on at school, then, though I
can't tell the extent of it.

Since I have to talk to The Kid anyway, I thought I'd buy the "crop
bras" just for her to have. It is a bit of a problem either way because
these kids wear school uniforms -- with white shirts on top. Whatever a
kid has or doesn't have...or wears or doesn't wear...is likely to be
apparent to the other kids. I don't know if anyone really cares, though
(besides this other mom, perhaps).

I thought I'd not pressure my daughter at all, just be very low key and
make them available so she has an option. I have no one to ask if this
is a reasonable response on my part. (Is it?) I really would have
preferred to blow the whole thing off for now, but it's clearly going to
come up with the classmate when my daughter gets back to school.

Oh yeah...and I'm not at all happy about this well-meaning parent.

beeswing

[Cheryl]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:25:22 EST, (beeswing) wrote:

>I have a third-grade daughter. A classmate's mother is pushing me to
>buy training bras for my daughter, which apparently her daughter
>already wears. While it's true my daughter is starting to "bloom,"
>she's still young and hasn't shown an interest herself. (I offered a
>while back.) My daughter seems like such a kid to me, and I don't want
>her teased...either for having one or *not* having one. How does a
>parent know when a young girl needs her first bra?
>
Well, my mum knew when I asked for one. She very carefully explained
to me that it wasn't necessary for me to have one when I first asked
for one since I had no breasts at all and asked me if I would be happy
with a camisole top with bra style adjustable straps. Since I
actually wanted it for the way it looked under clothes rather than
needing one this was a good solution for me at the time. Eventually I
started bouncing a little when I would do sport so I bought a bra then
for comfort. I think when a girl needs it for comfort during activity
is the best time to start.


--
Cheryl
Mum to DS#1 (11 Mar 99), DS#2 (4 Oct 00)
and DD (30 Jul 02)

[Beeswing]

"Penny Gaines" > wrote in message
...

> It may be nothing to do with Beeswing's daughter, more that the other
mum
> does not want her own daughter to be the only one wearing a training
bra.

I half-wondered that myself.

beeswing

[Cheryl]

x-no-archive: yes
On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 18:08:30 EST, "Beeswing" > wrote:


>Since I have to talk to The Kid anyway, I thought I'd buy the "crop
>bras" just for her to have. It is a bit of a problem either way because
>these kids wear school uniforms -- with white shirts on top. Whatever a
>kid has or doesn't have...or wears or doesn't wear...is likely to be
>apparent to the other kids. I don't know if anyone really cares, though
>(besides this other mom, perhaps).

Honestly, given my experience with white shirts and school uniforms
I'd say yes people care. Not all the girls in the year will care but
it was extremely obvious who was developing just by the appearance of
bra strap adjusters under the shirt. It was almost a competition
among one group of girls to be the first to wear a "proper" bra rather
than a training bra or a size smaller than an A cup. In my other post
I mentioned camisole tops that my mum bought be, the crop bras would
serve the same purpose - to look kind of like a bra but not be a bra
when it's not necessary. Singlets wouldn't do the trick for me, they
had to have that adjuster to look like a bra.

Man I'm not looking forward to my kids hitting puberty!


--
Cheryl
Mum to DS#1 (11 Mar 99), DS#2 (4 Oct 00)
and DD (30 Jul 02)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Beeswing > wrote:

*What actually happened, by the way, was that I got a phone call the
*other night from the other mom, whom I don't personally know. She told
*me that her daughter had a present for my daughter and would like to
*bring it by. (Mind you, these girls are classmates, not best buddies.)
*It was Valentine's Day; still, I was surprised but tried to act graceful
*about it. I told her that she and her daughter were welcome to come
*over. (They'd never even been to our house before.) THEN the women said,
*"Don't you want to know what it is?"
*
*You guessed it. A training bra.

OMG OMG OMG!

Excuse me for freaking out here but you know, it usually takes a lot to
get me to flip out like I'm flipping out right now, and I just can't
believe this. I think that is not only completely inappropriate, but
downright bizarre and unacceptable. I mean, going out and buying UNDERWEAR
for essentially a stranger's daughter?? Even if the kids are classmates,
that's just weird. I would have definitely told her no, I really preferred
to buy my daughters intimates myself, thanks, but that she was welcome to
come by for tea and cookies if she felt like it (even though she is a
weirdo I would try to be nice :)).

*Oh yeah...and I'm not at all happy about this well-meaning parent.

That's where the tea and cookies may have come in handy. Strike a rapport
and then sneak in something to the effect of "so, do bras have some kind
of special cultural meaning to you, or do you just work for a bra
company?" :)

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[beeswing]

Followup...Kid hated the "crop bras." Hated the whole idea. Which is fine with
me, and I told her as much. Told her she didn't really need them and wouldn't
for at least a few years.

They weren't expensive. I told her I'd put them upstairs in her underwear
drawer and if she ever did want them they'd be there. She was fine with that
and went back to watching Lilo and Stitch.

I think this could have been really ugly had they been given to her by a
classmate's mom in front of her classmate.

Still would like it if people could weigh in on this issue. Were the choices I
made OK? I was really clueless how to handle this, especially given the
unwanted pressure.

beeswing

[beeswing]

Rosalie wrote:

>Has your daughter said anything to HER?

No, I really doubt it.

Has her daughter said
>anything to you?

I don't personally know the woman *or* her daughter.

>Have you asked your daughter about her daughter (if
>they know each other

Yeah, we did that. They are friends but not close ones.

The whole thing was real strange.

beeswing

[beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

hillary israeli wrote:

>OMG OMG OMG!
>
>Excuse me for freaking out here but you know, it usually takes a lot to
>get me to flip out like I'm flipping out right now, and I just can't
>believe this. I think that is not only completely inappropriate, but
>downright bizarre and unacceptable. I mean, going out and buying UNDERWEAR
>for essentially a stranger's daughter?? Even if the kids are classmates,
>that's just weird. I would have definitely told her no, I really preferred
>to buy my daughters intimates myself, thanks, but that she was welcome to
>come by for tea and cookies if she felt like it (even though she is a
>weirdo I would try to be nice :)).

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you! This was EXACTLY my reaction, but I didn't
have anyone to run a reality check against so I thought I was way overracting.
My husband, when he talked to her, told her just what you said (minus the offer
of tea and cookies), "No, thanks, her mother would rather do it herself when
it's time. But you and your daughter are welcome to come by sometime anyway."


>That's where the tea and cookies may have come in handy. Strike a rapport
>and then sneak in something to the effect of "so, do bras have some kind
>of special cultural meaning to you, or do you just work for a bra
>company?" :)

LOL.

But seriously, I don't want a rapport with this woman *or* her daughter. All of
a sudden, I hear the loud voice of a Teletubby in my head: "RUN AWAY! RUN
AWAY!"

beeswing

[beeswing]

Scott wrote:

>Sheesh.
>
>To the classmate's mother, say this: "Thank you, but I will buy
>it when either daughter or I think it's necessary"
>
>Repeat as necessary.
>
>Scott DD 10.5 and DS 8, rolling my eyes.

I loved your response. It was spot-on.

beeswing

[beeswing]

>
>When she asks?
>
>Seriously, most girls are self conscious enough that they'll somehow get you
>to know that they want one. Or, failing that, there may be a time when you
>decide that the subject needs to be brought up. But, if she's comfortable
>and you don't see any need for it, time to tell the other mom, thanks for
>your concern but we'll do it on our own timeline, thank you.

I had "noticed" myself that morning that the subject could stand to be
broached. But no, if she doesn't want them, she doesn't need them, by any
means. It's entirely up to her.

beeswing

[beeswing]

Cheryl wrote:

>Well, my mum knew when I asked for one. She very carefully explained
>to me that it wasn't necessary for me to have one when I first asked
>for one since I had no breasts at all and asked me if I would be happy
>with a camisole top with bra style adjustable straps. Since I
>actually wanted it for the way it looked under clothes rather than
>needing one this was a good solution for me at the time. Eventually I
>started bouncing a little when I would do sport so I bought a bra then
>for comfort. I think when a girl needs it for comfort during activity
>is the best time to start.

How old were you when you actually wanted one? I actually can't remember *ever*
wanting a bra.

The comfort issue makes sense. Thanks.

beeswing

[beeswing]

>I've never quite understood the "training bra" concept. Exactly who or
>what is in training?
>
>Oh well.

Training wasn't really was was being called for here. :) It's just the only
term I know.

I saw "real" training bras for little kids while I was out today. Little
triangles with lace on them, a hook-and-eye back, totally flat things -- in my
opinion, the only purpose to them was to push little kids to grow up way too
fast. I found something downright distasteful about them.

>
>I didn't get bras for my daughters until they asked, or until they were
>into at least an A cup and clearly would benefit from one. On the other
>hand, both tended to prefer baggy clothes when they were at an age where
>they were first likely to need them (not uncommon, by the way). In
>third grade I don't think teasing about bras is becoming common yet; by
>5th grade, it may be different, and certainly in middle school comments
>about underwear and bust sizes are common.

Teasing about bras? Having them? Or not having them and "needing" them (loosely
speaking)?

When I was in elementary school, I remember being bullied because my mom made
my clothes and had put *darts* in the top.

>If your daughter isn't interested, and her body doesn't need them, I see
>no particular point to getting one. And why on EARTH would her
>classmate's mother think it's any of her damned business whether or not
>your daughter wears a training bra? I think that is the part of your
>post that most got my attention!

Oh, it was worse than that. I outlined the story in a later post.

Thanks for your input!

beeswing

[Kathy Cole]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:25:22 EST, (beeswing) wrote:

> A classmate's mother is pushing me to buy training bras for my
> daughter, which apparently her daughter already wears.

What earthly business is it of hers?

[beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

Cheryl wrote:

>Honestly, given my experience with white shirts and school uniforms
>I'd say yes people care. Not all the girls in the year will care but
>it was extremely obvious who was developing just by the appearance of
>bra strap adjusters under the shirt.

Yes, but if the girl doesn't wear a bra and is developing...won't it be obvious
(and potentially even more embarrassing) for her *not* to wear something of
some sort under a white shirt?

> It was almost a competition
>among one group of girls to be the first to wear a "proper" bra rather
>than a training bra or a size smaller than an A cup. In my other post
>I mentioned camisole tops that my mum bought be, the crop bras would
>serve the same purpose - to look kind of like a bra but not be a bra
>when it's not necessary. Singlets wouldn't do the trick for me, they
>had to have that adjuster to look like a bra.

Funny. The only thing I remember about having to wear a bra when I was young
was that I was mortified...especially once I hit 8th grade and got into...let
us say...bigger sizes.

>Man I'm not looking forward to my kids hitting puberty!

I almost cried today. My kid is only 9. I'm not old enough for this.

beeswing

[beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

Kathy Cole wrote:

>What earthly business is it of hers?

Good question. But it doesn't change the fact of her doing it. (She called me
Valentine's day saying "her daughter" had a gift -- a training bra -- for mine.
Her daughter already wears them, apparently. We turned her down.)

The word busybody *has* come to mind.

beeswing,
who wishes this never happened

[Kathy Cole]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:29:18 EST, (beeswing) wrote:

> Still would like it if people could weigh in on this issue. Were the
> choices I made OK? I was really clueless how to handle this, especially
> given the unwanted pressure.

It sounds to me like you handled it well, especially given the
completely intrusive behavior from the other parent. I'd drop the
topic, including not buying other non-bra styles of underwear, until a
time when your daughter brings it up.

I hope the other mother has the good sense to back off and mind her own
damned business.

[beeswing]

Kathy Cole wrote:

>It sounds to me like you handled it well, especially given the
>completely intrusive behavior from the other parent. I'd drop the
>topic, including not buying other non-bra styles of underwear, until a
>time when your daughter brings it up.
>
>I hope the other mother has the good sense to back off and mind her own
>damned business.

Thanks. I'm pretty darn relieved.

beeswing,
who found it hard to be a good mom today

[Leah Adezio]

beeswing > wrote in message
...
> Followup...Kid hated the "crop bras." Hated the whole idea. Which is fine
with
> me, and I told her as much. Told her she didn't really need them and
wouldn't
> for at least a few years.
>
> They weren't expensive. I told her I'd put them upstairs in her underwear
> drawer and if she ever did want them they'd be there. She was fine with
that
> and went back to watching Lilo and Stitch.

And this is a Good Thing because Stitch totally rocks. :)
>
> I think this could have been really ugly had they been given to her by a
> classmate's mom in front of her classmate.
>
> Still would like it if people could weigh in on this issue. Were the
choices I
> made OK? I was really clueless how to handle this, especially given the
> unwanted pressure.

FWIW, I think your husband's response was spot on. If you absolutely feel
the need to say something directly to this girl's mom, I think I'd go the
'It's a lovely thought, but I was planning on following a tradition that my
Mom started -- that when it's time for shopping for a girl's first "intimate
clothing", Mom took me shopping then treated me to special dinner out that
night, just the two of us. It was really special and I'm looking foward to
doing this with my daughter *when it's time* -- which it isn't yet. I'm
sure you understand.'

And if it's not true, it still could be if you choose to do this when it
*is* time. :)

Whether this is true or not, it conveys the message that shopping for a
first bra is something one's mother does for one's child -- not a stranger
based on *her* opinion that it's 'time' -- and that the parent(s) are the
ones to make that determination, not a stranger.

Maybe I'm old fashioned and sentimental, but to me, this sort of thing falls
under the category of 'rite of passage' and is not something strangers get
to make decisions about for *my* family.

Leah

[beeswing]

Leah wrote:

>FWIW, I think your husband's response was spot on.

Frankly, he said to her what I said to him...but being shy, didn't have the
guts to say directly.

>If you absolutely feel
>the need to say something directly to this girl's mom,

Chicken that I am, I let my husband speak for me; he's brasher than I am. I
have nothing to say to this woman. I wouldn't even recognize her if I ran into
her.

> I think I'd go the
>'It's a lovely thought, but I was planning on following a tradition that my
>Mom started -- that when it's time for shopping for a girl's first "intimate
>clothing", Mom took me shopping then treated me to special dinner out that
>night, just the two of us. It was really special and I'm looking foward to
>doing this with my daughter *when it's time* -- which it isn't yet. I'm
>sure you understand.'
>
>And if it's not true, it still could be if you choose to do this when it
>*is* time. :)
>
>Whether this is true or not, it conveys the message that shopping for a
>first bra is something one's mother does for one's child -- not a stranger
>based on *her* opinion that it's 'time' -- and that the parent(s) are the
>ones to make that determination, not a stranger.
>
>Maybe I'm old fashioned and sentimental, but to me, this sort of thing falls
>under the category of 'rite of passage' and is not something strangers get
>to make decisions about for *my* family.

I agree with you there. Bra shopping, whenever the "real" event might be, is
something I want to share with my daughter. I'm in a funny spot, though,
because my mom died when I was 13. I don't remember back far enough to recall
what the deal was with The First Bra, but my significant bra purchases were
done without the aid of my mother, but instead with my gram -- and frankly, it
was very awkward. I'm confused about how to handle these sorts of things. I
don't have a clear memory to rely on, and while I'm old fashioned and
sentimental myself, I really feel at sea with some of these things, without
having a mom or the experience of a mom to draw upon. I very much appreciate
having the "misc.kids.(moderated) community to lean on at times like these. I
feel a little lost.

Thanks so much for your comments. They basically echo the way I feel, myself.

beeswing

[Rosalie B.]

(beeswing) wrote:

>Rosalie wrote:
>
>>Has your daughter said anything to HER?
>
>No, I really doubt it.
>
>Has her daughter said
>>anything to you?
>
>I don't personally know the woman *or* her daughter.
>
>>Have you asked your daughter about her daughter (if
>>they know each other
>
>Yeah, we did that. They are friends but not close ones.
>
>The whole thing was real strange.

That's why while it may be that this woman is just terminally
interfering and a trouble maker, there may be some other reason why
she thinks that your daughter ought to be wearing a bra.

Maybe it might be a good idea to ask around to other moms that you DO
know. Has she done this to other girls?


I was a kid who just totally ignored the whole thing as much as
possible for as long as possible, and my mom was happy for me to do
that (although she did think it important to give me 'the talk' before
it was necessary and several times so I'd know what was going on and
wouldn't be freaked out - mostly because her mom did not do that for
her) as she apparently felt as you do that it was too early to be
concerned.

So if it had been up to me, I would never have worn a bra (regardless
- and athletics was not a part of my life), even after I would have
failed the pencil test. I was very protected and clueless about sex
and if my mom had asked me I would have rejected the idea of a bra
too. So you can't always rely on the girl to know when she needs to
wear a bra.

grandma Rosalie

[chiam margalit]

DD, age 11.5, started complaining that certain shirts bothered her
when she was in 4th grade. Because we live in a warm climate,
undershirts in summer really weren't the best idea, so I got her a
couple of the cotton 'sports' bras. Not 'training bras', more like
exercise bras with t-backs. She wore those for a year or two, and then
she did need a bit more support, and moved to an actual bra. She's
small still, hasn't moved to a real cup size, but I can think of some
adults she's bigger than, so she probably could use a real bra about
now.

I waited until she showed interest, but she wasn't, by any means, the
first kid in her class. There was at least one girl I knew of in 3rd
grade, and several in 4th grade that were before her. These were all
girls who could be considered overweight. DD is *very* thin, so her
need was actual breast tissue, and not just chubbiness.

My feeling is, ask every once in a while, and if your daughter doesn't
show any interest, then don't push it.

And tell your friend to MYOB and stop pushing YOUR child to grow up.

Marjorie

[Cheryl]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:55:18 EST, (beeswing) wrote:

>Cheryl wrote:
>
>>Well, my mum knew when I asked for one. She very carefully explained
>>to me that it wasn't necessary for me to have one when I first asked
>>for one since I had no breasts at all and asked me if I would be happy
>>with a camisole top with bra style adjustable straps. Since I
>>actually wanted it for the way it looked under clothes rather than
>>needing one this was a good solution for me at the time. Eventually I
>>started bouncing a little when I would do sport so I bought a bra then
>>for comfort. I think when a girl needs it for comfort during activity
>>is the best time to start.
>
>How old were you when you actually wanted one? I actually can't remember *ever*
>wanting a bra.

I honestly cannot remember. I know when I needed one was definitely by
the time I was in year 9, which was by about 15 since I was older than
most kids in my class. It may have been at 14, but definitely not
before 13. However there were some girls in my class who were wearing
bras when we started high school (in Australia there is no junior
high, so it's around age 12-13, 8th year of formal schooling), the
majority started wearing them by the end of that year or the beginning
of the next. So I probably asked for one about halfway through year
7, so at around age 13 and actually needed one about a year later.

However girls do seem to be maturing faster now than all those many
years ago (ha ha) when I was at school, I wouldn't be surprised at 11
and 12 year olds needing bras. 9 seems very young for it though, it
sounds more like a societal pressure than an actual requirement. The
fact that they are being sold in major department stores with sizes
for 8-10 year olds may be enough to convince some adults and their
daughters that they are necessary but I don't think they really are
for most girls at that age.


--
Cheryl
Mum to DS#1 (11 Mar 99), DS#2 (4 Oct 00)
and DD (30 Jul 02)

[Cheryl]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 21:34:43 EST, (beeswing) wrote:

>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Cheryl wrote:
>
>>Honestly, given my experience with white shirts and school uniforms
>>I'd say yes people care. Not all the girls in the year will care but
>>it was extremely obvious who was developing just by the appearance of
>>bra strap adjusters under the shirt.
>
>Yes, but if the girl doesn't wear a bra and is developing...won't it be obvious
>(and potentially even more embarrassing) for her *not* to wear something of
>some sort under a white shirt?

Yeah. That's why mum went for offering me a camisole. Something
between my skin and the white shirt that didn't look like a kiddie
vest/singlet.


--
Cheryl
Mum to DS#1 (11 Mar 99), DS#2 (4 Oct 00)
and DD (30 Jul 02)

[beeswing]

Cheryl wrote:
>
>Yeah. That's why mum went for offering me a camisole. Something
>between my skin and the white shirt that didn't look like a kiddie
>vest/singlet.

Got it, now. That actually was what I was looking for but couldn't exactly
find.

(I think I'm having a bit of a language difficulty here: I've never heard the
terms "kiddie vest" or "singlet." I'm trying to translate them by context.)

beeswing

[beeswing]

Marjorie wrote:

>My feeling is, ask every once in a while, and if your daughter doesn't
>show any interest, then don't push it.

Thanks, that's what I thought.

>And tell your friend to MYOB and stop pushing YOUR child to grow up.

This lady isn't a friend, she's a stranger to me -- that's the worst part of
it. But *YES,* definitely.

beeswing

[beeswing]

Rosalie wrote:

>Maybe it might be a good idea to ask around to other moms that you DO
>know. Has she done this to other girls?

I don't know any of the moms. Our daughter's best friend is raised by her dad,
who is doing the very best he can in areas such as these but is honestly even
more clueless than we are. My husband did ask him if his daughter had brought
the whole bra subject up, though, and she had, for whatever that's worth.

>So if it had been up to me, I would never have worn a bra (regardless
>- and athletics was not a part of my life), even after I would have
>failed the pencil test. I was very protected and clueless about sex
>and if my mom had asked me I would have rejected the idea of a bra
>too. So you can't always rely on the girl to know when she needs to
>wear a bra.

Yeah, I'm getting some hints from my daughter that she's not going to be
particularly helpful in this area. She's totally oblivious about her
body...which can cause us other problems down the road if she doesn't "wake up"
a little.

beeswing

[Rosalie B.]

Cheryl > wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:55:18 EST, (beeswing) wrote:
>
>>Cheryl wrote:
>>
>>>Well, my mum knew when I asked for one. She very carefully explained
>>>to me that it wasn't necessary for me to have one when I first asked
>>>for one since I had no breasts at all and asked me if I would be happy
>>>with a camisole top with bra style adjustable straps. Since I
>>>actually wanted it for the way it looked under clothes rather than
>>>needing one this was a good solution for me at the time. Eventually I
>>>started bouncing a little when I would do sport so I bought a bra then
>>>for comfort. I think when a girl needs it for comfort during activity
>>>is the best time to start.
>>
>>How old were you when you actually wanted one? I actually can't remember *ever*
>>wanting a bra.
>
>I honestly cannot remember. I know when I needed one was definitely by
>the time I was in year 9, which was by about 15 since I was older than
>most kids in my class. It may have been at 14, but definitely not
>before 13. However there were some girls in my class who were wearing
>bras when we started high school (in Australia there is no junior
>high, so it's around age 12-13, 8th year of formal schooling), the

My sister and I developed fairly early (and remember Annette Funicello
from the Mouseketeers). I know that my sister's husband discussed
whether my sister wore a bra when she was in 7th grade (which was then
in Junior High). It was reported to her by a friend who said that he
had asked her about it - they had to get into gym uniforms so the
girls could see what other girls were or were not wearing and he
wanted to know which girls were wearing them. I think she was a 34B
at that time, and she would have been only about 11 years old because
she skipped first grade.

Girls that I taught in the 6th grade were often fairly well developed,
and one of the girls in my homeroom (that I was teaching) had to drop
out because she got pregnant. I know that by 12 I NEEDED a bra. By
the time I was about 14, I was wearing a 34D.

My mom took me to a corset lady who taught me how to put a bra on
correctly, and how to tell if it fitted right. I don't know if there
are any of these ladies around anymore. (Someone like Mrs. -- blanked
on her name-- on Are You Being Served.) About the only things I could
wear were Bali bras.

>majority started wearing them by the end of that year or the beginning
>of the next. So I probably asked for one about halfway through year
>7, so at around age 13 and actually needed one about a year later.
>
>However girls do seem to be maturing faster now than all those many
>years ago (ha ha) when I was at school, I wouldn't be surprised at 11
>and 12 year olds needing bras. 9 seems very young for it though, it
>sounds more like a societal pressure than an actual requirement. The
>fact that they are being sold in major department stores with sizes
>for 8-10 year olds may be enough to convince some adults and their
>daughters that they are necessary but I don't think they really are
>for most girls at that age.

I don't think that girls are necessarily maturing faster on the
average. They've been saying that for years. We were given 'the
talk' in my day in the 5th grade. That would have been in 1947.



grandma Rosalie

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
beeswing > wrote:

*Cheryl wrote:
*>
*>Yeah. That's why mum went for offering me a camisole. Something
*>between my skin and the white shirt that didn't look like a kiddie
*>vest/singlet.
*
*Got it, now. That actually was what I was looking for but couldn't exactly
*find.
*
*(I think I'm having a bit of a language difficulty here: I've never heard the
*terms "kiddie vest" or "singlet." I'm trying to translate them by context.)

I was recently informed by one of my Antipodean friends that a "singlet"
is a "tank top." FWIW.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Beeswing]

x-no-archive: yes

My husband was going to Penney's today. Long ago I told my daughter we'd
buy her some undershirts to see if she wanted to wear some, so I had him
pick her up a three-pack. I wish that was all I'd done in the first
place.

I can just visualize my daughter as an adult talking to a therapist,
explaining how her clueless mother ruined her entire life by putting her
on the spot by bringing home crop bras when she was only 9. While I
don't see a therapist about it :), I have to admit that I have some
pretty strong memories of the one bra-related faux pas my mother pulled.

*SIGH.* It's darn hard to be a good parent. It involves an awful lot of
fishing around in the dark.

Thanks for folk's comments and input. I'm basically ready to stop
thinking about this one for a while.

beeswing

[Marijke]

That's probably the best solution but I, being who I am, would come right
out and ask that woman why she thought a bra would be an approprite gift for
my child.

While I'm not one who made a big deal about buying one for my daughter (we
didn't make a mother/daughter thing, it just happened), I would be offended
if another parent, who I didn't even know, went ahead and bought one for
her. It's just too weird. Now, if a close friend suggested it, that would be
different, in my mind, but a stranger? Buying a bra for your daughter? And
giving it through her daughter? That is just too weird.

Marijke
in Montreal
"Beeswing" > wrote in message
...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> My husband was going to Penney's today. Long ago I told my daughter we'd
> buy her some undershirts to see if she wanted to wear some, so I had him
> pick her up a three-pack. I wish that was all I'd done in the first
> place.

[Beeswing]

"Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
...
> In >,
> beeswing > wrote:
>
> *Cheryl wrote:
> *>
> *>Yeah. That's why mum went for offering me a camisole. Something
> *>between my skin and the white shirt that didn't look like a kiddie
> *>vest/singlet.
> *
> *Got it, now. That actually was what I was looking for but couldn't
exactly
> *find.
> *
> *(I think I'm having a bit of a language difficulty here: I've never
heard the
> *terms "kiddie vest" or "singlet." I'm trying to translate them by
context.)
>
> I was recently informed by one of my Antipodean friends that a
"singlet"
> is a "tank top." FWIW.

So, in Australian, how does a "singlet" differ from a "camisole"? That's
where I'm getting confused. I thought camisoles and tanktops were the
same thing, at least in the realm of undergarments.

beeswing

[beeswing]

Martijke wrote:

>That's probably the best solution but I, being who I am, would come right
>out and ask that woman why she thought a bra would be an approprite gift for
>my child.

My husband talked with her briefly about that while she was on the phone. I
think it comes down to a difference in culture plus a large dose of
busybodiness on her part. I don't know the woman and really don't wish to talk
with her further about it.

It seems weird to me, too. But I'm ready to drop the issue and move on.

beeswing

..

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Beeswing > wrote:

*So, in Australian, how does a "singlet" differ from a "camisole"? That's
*where I'm getting confused. I thought camisoles and tanktops were the
*same thing, at least in the realm of undergarments.

Well, far be it from me to speak for any extant Australians... but in my
lexicon, a camisole is something like this:

http://www2.victoriassecret.com/commerce/application/prodDisplay/?namespace=
productDisplay&origin=onlineProductDisplay.jsp&event=display&
prnbr=KK-165064&cgname=OSCLOCAMZZZ&cgnbr=OSCLOCAMZZZ&rfnbr=700
&page=2&cgname=OSCLOCAMZZZ&rfnbr=700

aka

http://tinyurl.com/2pom3

whereas a tank top is more like this:

http://www.thestore.adidas.com/cgi-bin/adilive/b2c/index.w?source=&promo=us
prdwa&location=b2c/gateway.w?type%3Ddag%26code%3DAW

aka

http://tinyurl.com/yqrh5

:)

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[beeswing]

Hillary wrote:

>Well, far be it from me to speak for any extant Australians... but in my
>lexicon, a camisole is something like this:
><SNIP EXAMPLE>
>whereas a tank top is more like this:
><SNIP EXAMPLE>
>
>:)


That may be my problem. I think of *this* as a camisole:

http://www.jockey.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=19
8&IWCATProduct_Id=83821&showcase=t&Section_parent_id=198&category=womens

or

http://tinyurl.com/2heml

Now that I look -- sure enough -- while the item shows up in the camisole
category, the picture itself is titled a "tank top."

That same "tank top" is given top honors visually when I click into the women's
camisole category. It's there on the camisole page, the big picture on the
right:

http://www.jockey.com/IWCatSectionView.process?IWAction=Load&Merchant_Id=1
&category=womens&Section_parent_id=190&Section_Id=198

or

http://tinyurl.com/2lpk8

That same item, of course, can also be found under the women's tank top
category -- but for greater confusion, check out what picture *they* have on
the right of the screen (isn't that thing called a "crop bra"?):

http://www.jockey.com/IWCatSectionView.process?IWAction=Load&Merchant_Id=1
&Section_Id=197&Section_parent_id=198&category=womens

or

http://tinyurl.com/36zc5


*SIGH.*

Stuff like this is enough to drive a non-fashion-maven like me a little crazy.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm kewl enough to be a mom to a young, growing girl...!

Have I gotten off-topic enough for this group, or was the last statement enough
of a tie-in? :)

beeswing,
who was raised by her dad as a teen

[Penny Gaines]

Beeswing wrote in >:

> "Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
> ...
[snip]
>> *(I think I'm having a bit of a language difficulty here: I've never
> heard the
>> *terms "kiddie vest" or "singlet." I'm trying to translate them by
> context.)
>>
>> I was recently informed by one of my Antipodean friends that a
> "singlet"
>> is a "tank top." FWIW.
>
> So, in Australian, how does a "singlet" differ from a "camisole"? That's
> where I'm getting confused. I thought camisoles and tanktops were the
> same thing, at least in the realm of undergarments.

In the UK, a vest is basically a sleeveless t-shirt, to be worn under other
clothes for warmth. Sometimes it is worn on its own, but it is not really
a respectable garment. A singlet is another name for this garment. It
would not normally have any shaping, and would tend to have wide straps
(up to 2 inches for kids' sizes). It would normally be plain, although
children's vests might have characters on them or a bit of lace/bow for
little girls.

A camisole is more likely to be shaped, and would tend to be prettier (eg
with more lace). The straps would be narrower - thin ribbon or bra-strap
width. A vest is never lingerie, a camisole might be.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Penny Gaines]

beeswing wrote in >:

[snip]
>>they were first likely to need them (not uncommon, by the way). In
>>third grade I don't think teasing about bras is becoming common yet; by
>>5th grade, it may be different, and certainly in middle school comments
>>about underwear and bust sizes are common.
>
> Teasing about bras? Having them? Or not having them and "needing" them
> (loosely speaking)?

Also there is teasing about not needing them yet, whether or not one wears
them.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[beeswing]

Penny Gaines wrote:

>Also there is teasing about not needing them yet, whether or not one wears
>them.

I realized that would be the case.

beeswing

[beeswing]

Penny Gaines wrote:

>In the UK, a vest is basically a sleeveless t-shirt, to be worn under other
>clothes for warmth. Sometimes it is worn on its own, but it is not really
>a respectable garment. A singlet is another name for this garment. It
>would not normally have any shaping, and would tend to have wide straps
>(up to 2 inches for kids' sizes). It would normally be plain, although
>children's vests might have characters on them or a bit of lace/bow for
>little girls.
>
>A camisole is more likely to be shaped, and would tend to be prettier (eg
>with more lace). The straps would be narrower - thin ribbon or bra-strap
>width. A vest is never lingerie, a camisole might be.

Thanks a lot for the translation, Penny!

beeswing

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article >,
beeswing > wrote:
>
>How old were you when you actually wanted one? I actually can't remember *ever*
>wanting a bra.


Here's my late-bloomer perspective. I was 14 when I finally decided I
actually wanted a bra. I was just budding at that time. I had been
adamant early on that I didn't want to wear one just because "everyone
else was" since I didn't need one yet. But in 9th grade gym class,
somewhere around halfway through the year, I suddenly became
self-conscious about my top being "naked" while changing for gym. So I
decided to start wearing a "training" bra at that point. I didn't need
one for support or physical comfort yet.

I think, unless there is an obvious need, you are probably safe waiting
for comfort or conformity or modesty or something to kick in :)

Good luck,

Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)
--
Support a family business and learn about the technologies underlying
the Internet with the TCP/IP Guide! http://www.tcpipguide.com
Special Limited-Time offer for Educators!

For a challenging little arithmetic puzzle for kids and adults alike,
check out http://cgi.wff-n-proof.com/MSQ-Ind/I-1E.htm

[Beeswing]

"Robyn Kozierok" > wrote in message
...
>
> Here's my late-bloomer perspective. I was 14 when I finally decided I
> actually wanted a bra. I was just budding at that time. I had been
> adamant early on that I didn't want to wear one just because "everyone
> else was" since I didn't need one yet. But in 9th grade gym class,
> somewhere around halfway through the year, I suddenly became
> self-conscious about my top being "naked" while changing for gym. So
I
> decided to start wearing a "training" bra at that point. I didn't
need
> one for support or physical comfort yet.
>
> I think, unless there is an obvious need, you are probably safe
waiting
> for comfort or conformity or modesty or something to kick in :)
>
> Good luck,

Thanks for the insights. What threw me off was that this other woman
took it upon herself to decide that my daughter needed one. I'm just
insecure enough to let it bother me that she might be right.

My daughter is apparently going to be an early bloomer. That's gonna
have to figure into it at some point, whether or not she's fully aware
of the ramifications. Last thing I want to do, though, is make her
self-conscious; to me, that's the most important issue, not whether or
not some lady thinks I'm doing the wrong thing in not bra-ing my kid.

beeswing

[Penny Gaines]

beeswing wrote in >:

> That same item, of course, can also be found under the women's tank top
> category -- but for greater confusion, check out what picture they have on
> the right of the screen (isn't that thing called a "crop bra"?):

Ah well, *this* is what I think of as a tank top, although I would have
expected it to have more colours:
http://www.patriciasmith.co.uk/winter03/red_tank_top.htm

Most of my magazines seem to have side-stepped the distinctions, and call
them all 'tops'.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Beeswing]

"Penny Gaines" > wrote in message
...

> Ah well, *this* is what I think of as a tank top, although I would
have
> expected it to have more colours:
> http://www.patriciasmith.co.uk/winter03/red_tank_top.htm
>
> Most of my magazines seem to have side-stepped the distinctions, and
call
> them all 'tops'.

And I would have termed that a "sweater vest."

Interesting.

beeswing

[Cheryl]

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:47:35 EST, (Hillary
Israeli) wrote:

>In >,
>beeswing > wrote:
>
>*Cheryl wrote:
>*>
>*>Yeah. That's why mum went for offering me a camisole. Something
>*>between my skin and the white shirt that didn't look like a kiddie
>*>vest/singlet.
>*
>*Got it, now. That actually was what I was looking for but couldn't exactly
>*find.
>*
>*(I think I'm having a bit of a language difficulty here: I've never heard the
>*terms "kiddie vest" or "singlet." I'm trying to translate them by context.)
>
>I was recently informed by one of my Antipodean friends that a "singlet"
>is a "tank top." FWIW.

Well, we usually call anything sleeveless a singlet ;) There are
singlets to go under shirts to keep you warm (which are sometimes
called vests, depending on the age of your parents and their cultural
heritage) and there are singlets that you can wear as outer wear. The
most common brand of singlet for underwear is Bonds and can be seen
here:
http://www.bonds.com.au/Children/Girls/Underwear/2535.asp

And a camisole is like the top half of a petticoat or slip. The ones
I've seen are usually in the lingerie section and have at least a lace
trim. There is a definite language barrier between the US and
Australia some days.....


--
Cheryl
Mum to DS#1 (11 Mar 99), DS#2 (4 Oct 00)
and DD (30 Jul 02)

[Rosalie B.]

Cheryl > wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 15:47:35 EST, (Hillary
>Israeli) wrote:
>
>>In >,
>>beeswing > wrote:
>>
>>*Cheryl wrote:
>>*>
>>*>Yeah. That's why mum went for offering me a camisole. Something
>>*>between my skin and the white shirt that didn't look like a kiddie
>>*>vest/singlet.
>>*
<snip>

>>*(I think I'm having a bit of a language difficulty here: I've never heard the
>>*terms "kiddie vest" or "singlet." I'm trying to translate them by context.)
>>
>>I was recently informed by one of my Antipodean friends that a "singlet"
>>is a "tank top." FWIW.
>
>Well, we usually call anything sleeveless a singlet ;) There are
>singlets to go under shirts to keep you warm (which are sometimes
>called vests, depending on the age of your parents and their cultural
>heritage) and there are singlets that you can wear as outer wear. The
>most common brand of singlet for underwear is Bonds and can be seen
>here:
>http://www.bonds.com.au/Children/Girls/Underwear/2535.asp
>
>And a camisole is like the top half of a petticoat or slip. The ones
>I've seen are usually in the lingerie section and have at least a lace
>trim. There is a definite language barrier between the US and
>Australia some days.....

I haven't clicked on any of the URLs, but I've been following the
discussion with interest.

I've never used the term singlet. I've also never used the term vest
like that. (Not that it is improper, but I just haven't used the
terms that way). When I see the word 'singlet', my mental image is of
a more upscale type of sleeveless underwear. Very smooth and kind of
like what I call a tank top.

A vest for me is something without sleeves that is outer wear - either
under a coat, or without a coat for warmth. For instance we have a 3
piece suit for a man which has trousers a vest and a coat. And my
dd#3 who was always a bit cold would in the heat and humidity of a
Maryland summer July wear a down vest and leg warmers to go down to
the barn to ride (on top of other clothes of course - not JUST the
vest and leg warmers <g>)

For a thing that's usually cotton knit without sleeves - we (I) just
call it an undershirt. In the old days (late 30's) neither men nor
women could be topless on the beach. (although children could
whatever their sex). So I have pictures taken when I was about two of
me on the beach with just a one piece bathing suit bottom, and my dad
has a bathing suit and has one of his undershirts on as a top. (My
mom has a halter top bathing suit with bloomer legs that she made for
herself)

My dad always wore sleeveless undershirts and they had bound edges and
were kind of a loose knit in the middle - semi transparent. Not like
the ones Onslow in "Keeping Up Appearances" wears which appear to be
solid knit throughout. Not as sexy as a 'muscle shirt' which are also
sleeveless but often have lower cut armholes. My dh almost always
wears a plain white T shirt under his clothes as an undershirt and it
has sleeves. If it is hot he may just wear a colored T-shirt without
an undershirt. He rarely if ever wears a sleeveless shirt and almost
never goes topless unless he's swimming. [Since he is very fair and
mostly burns and doesn't tan, keeping covered is a GOOD thing.]

When the kids were babies, they wore undershirts (sometimes wrap
around with ties or snaps, or sometimes to put on over the head) but I
can't remember that any of them were sleeveless. If it was hot enough
for something sleeveless, they didn't wear anything. Most of the time
if they were in an undershirt, I didn't have anything else on them on
the top.

I do not remember ever wearing any kind of underwear as a child
(school age to about age 10) except underpants. (Which we call
panties to distinguish them from trousers which we also call pants
sometimes scandalizing our UK friends who think pants are underwear.)
I know I would sometimes wear a plain T-shirt as a top because I have
pictures of me that way.

I do agree about the camisole though. We also had half slips
(probably still do) which were from the waist only, and sometimes I
wore a camisole with a half slip instead of a full slip. Sometimes it
was because of a very sheer blouse and the camisole was designed to be
seen through the blouse. So if you had a sheer blouse that you wore
with trousers, you wore a camisole on the top either to hide your bra
or to hide the fact that you didn't have a bra.

I thought that a tank top was a garment with integral straps (not
ribbons or fancy straps that could be lengthened or shortened like a
slip or camisole) - I sort of equated it in my mind with a tank suit,
which was the school issued swim suits that we wore for PE - they had
no support whatsoever, and provided no figure flaw hiding capability.
We had to take Body Mechanics as freshmen in college, and they took
our pictures side and front wearing a tank suit and a bathing cap to
point out the flaws in the way we stood. This was upsetting for some
people.


grandma Rosalie

[Claire Petersky]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
> Cheryl > wrote:

> I've never used the term singlet.

A singlet, to my mind, is something you wear while running, like this:

http://www.raceready.com/images/rrwsinglet_big.jpg

In our house:

Singlets are atheletic wear.
Tank tops are casual wear.
Camisoles are underwear.

My older daughter and I wear bras as underwear. My younger daughter wears
undershirts and items I would describe as half-camisoles.

I also have a small collection of undershirts. I don't like sleeveless
undershirts. One of the great benefits of sleeved undershirts is that, if
you sweat into them, you only need to wash the undershirt, not what went
over it. Sleeved undershirts are handy to wear under, say, a nice
turtleneck, on a day when you are shifting between cold outdoors and
overheated rooms. They cut down on the amount of drying cleaning you have to
pay for.


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
Please replace earthlink for mouse-potato and .net for .com

[Rosalie B.]

"Claire Petersky" > wrote:
<snip>
>Singlets are atheletic wear.
>Tank tops are casual wear.
>Camisoles are underwear.
>
>My older daughter and I wear bras as underwear. My younger daughter wears
>undershirts and items I would describe as half-camisoles.
>
>I also have a small collection of undershirts. I don't like sleeveless
>undershirts. One of the great benefits of sleeved undershirts is that, if
>you sweat into them, you only need to wash the undershirt, not what went
>over it. Sleeved undershirts are handy to wear under, say, a nice

In my day we had sweater guards or dress shields which were pads (sort
of like nursing bra pads) that went in the underarm area held in place
with a contraption of straps and elastic. This was so that when we
wore twin sets (a pullover and a matching cardigan), you didn't sweat
on the pullover and made ineradicable stains. You also wore them when
you were wearing a nice dress sometimes. At least my mom tried to get
me to wear them. AFAI was concern, they were an invention of the
devil and very uncomfortable, so I resisted wearing them.

>turtleneck, on a day when you are shifting between cold outdoors and
>overheated rooms. They cut down on the amount of drying cleaning you have to
>pay for.

I don't get stuff that has to be dry cleaned any more, and I don't
recall having very much that had to be dry cleaned as a child. We did
wash a lot of stuff by hand though - which I also no longer do.

grandma Rosalie

[Penny Gaines]

Rosalie B. wrote in >:
[snip]
> My dad always wore sleeveless undershirts and they had bound edges and
> were kind of a loose knit in the middle - semi transparent. Not like
> the ones Onslow in "Keeping Up Appearances" wears which appear to be
> solid knit throughout. Not as sexy as a 'muscle shirt' which are also

Onslow wears a vest. That is definitely a vest, and definitely a
non-respectable way of wearing a vest.

I think what you describe your dad wearing might be called a "string vest"
over here: or at least I could describe a string vest in the same way.
Like a net, rather then solid. I couldn't find a picture on the web,
apart from this cartoon:
http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/s/string_vest.asp

They are very like the garments worn by rappers, except they are white.

[snip]
> I do not remember ever wearing any kind of underwear as a child
> (school age to about age 10) except underpants. (Which we call
> panties to distinguish them from trousers which we also call pants
> sometimes scandalizing our UK friends who think pants are underwear.)
> I know I would sometimes wear a plain T-shirt as a top because I have
> pictures of me that way.
[snip]

My kids think it is very funny that you yanks can go out wearing a
"vest and pants" and be respectable, whereas over here "vest and pants"
are underwear, and would not be respectable.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Rosalie B.]

Penny Gaines > wrote:

>Rosalie B. wrote in >:
>[snip]
>> My dad always wore sleeveless undershirts and they had bound edges and
>> were kind of a loose knit in the middle - semi transparent. Not like
>> the ones Onslow in "Keeping Up Appearances" wears which appear to be
>> solid knit throughout. Not as sexy as a 'muscle shirt' which are also
>
>Onslow wears a vest. That is definitely a vest, and definitely a
>non-respectable way of wearing a vest.

Well it just looks like an undershirt to me. Not a high class way of
dressing as we know from Mrs. Bucket's reaction, but undershirts and
T-shirts are both worn without anything over them sometimes here.
Haven't you ever seen that coke commercial?

What do you call the garment that Kevin? Sarbo? wears in ?? can't
remember the name of the show now - the male equivalent of Zena. It's
a sleeveless thing which I'd call a vest. Obviously you all wouldn't.

http://www12.virtualtourist.com/m/4a9c6/b9174/ is my dad in 1948 with
a regular T shirt on and here is one of me
http://www12.virtualtourist.com/m/4a9c6/dc5a0/ in the same year. I'm
on the right and I was 10 here, almost 11.
>
>I think what you describe your dad wearing might be called a "string vest"
>over here: or at least I could describe a string vest in the same way.
>Like a net, rather then solid. I couldn't find a picture on the web,
>apart from this cartoon:
>http://www.cartoonstock.com/directory/s/string_vest.asp
>
No it wasn't net. I think I know what you mean by a string vest (I
can't think what we call it, but it's not a string vest) and that's
MUCH looser a weave than what I see in my minds eye. It is just that
instead of being a smooth solid knit it had a ribbed pattern to it.

>They are very like the garments worn by rappers, except they are white.

The vests are white?
>
>[snip]
>> I do not remember ever wearing any kind of underwear as a child
>> (school age to about age 10) except underpants. (Which we call
>> panties to distinguish them from trousers which we also call pants
>> sometimes scandalizing our UK friends who think pants are underwear.)
>> I know I would sometimes wear a plain T-shirt as a top because I have
>> pictures of me that way.
>[snip]
>
>My kids think it is very funny that you yanks can go out wearing a
>"vest and pants" and be respectable, whereas over here "vest and pants"
>are underwear, and would not be respectable.

Wait until they hear us talking about fanny packs.

grandma Rosalie

[Kevin Karplus]

I don't know all the American/British clothing equivalences, but here
are a few:

American British
vest waistcoat
undershirt vest
underpants pants
pants trousers
running shoes trainers

I've not been following the camisole, tanktop, sport bra, training bra,
.... discussion very closely (not likely to be very relevant to my son,
even though we do live in California).

There are some equivalence lists on web---for example,

http://www.free-esl.com/gg/englishes/ambrvoc.htm
(has some errors, like about what "shorts" means in
American English)
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atlantis/2284/
http://www.centripedus.com/amlish.html
http://vocabulary.englishclub.com/voc-ukus.htm
(has several errors in usage)

--
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
Affiliations for identification only.

[Jayne Kulikauskas]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...

[]
> What do you call the garment that Kevin? Sarbo? wears in ?? can't
> remember the name of the show now - the male equivalent of Zena. It's
> a sleeveless thing which I'd call a vest. Obviously you all wouldn't.
[]

The show is Hercules. I would call the the garment a sleeveless shirt. (I
would also call it sexy, but that is not relevant. <g>)

Jayne

[Rosalie B.]

"Jayne Kulikauskas" > wrote:

>
>"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
>
>[]
>> What do you call the garment that Kevin? Sarbo? wears in ?? can't
>> remember the name of the show now - the male equivalent of Zena. It's
>> a sleeveless thing which I'd call a vest. Obviously you all wouldn't.
>[]
>
>The show is Hercules. I would call the the garment a sleeveless shirt. (I
>would also call it sexy, but that is not relevant. <g>)

Oh - right. He looks much better in that than in normal clothes IMHO
just as Lucy looks better in her Zena outfit. How can I get a
designer to design something for me that makes me look that much
better? (I guess I'd have to have a better body first).

What about those shirts that the chippies (carpenters) wear on House
Invaders? I noticed today that Phil was wearing what I would call a
sleeveless undershirt in grey.

Kevin said that the discussion of training bras would not be relevant
to his son, but is a singlet a garment only for a female, or can it be
worn by a man? (I'm pretty clear about bras and camisoles being
women's wear.) How about a tank top? I would have thought that was
unisex.






grandma Rosalie

[Cheryl]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:29:26 EST, "Rosalie B."
> wrote:

>"Jayne Kulikauskas" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
>>
>>[]
>>> What do you call the garment that Kevin? Sarbo? wears in ?? can't
>>> remember the name of the show now - the male equivalent of Zena. It's
>>> a sleeveless thing which I'd call a vest. Obviously you all wouldn't.
>>[]
>>
>>The show is Hercules. I would call the the garment a sleeveless shirt. (I
>>would also call it sexy, but that is not relevant. <g>)
>
>Oh - right. He looks much better in that than in normal clothes IMHO
>just as Lucy looks better in her Zena outfit. How can I get a
>designer to design something for me that makes me look that much
>better? (I guess I'd have to have a better body first).
>
>What about those shirts that the chippies (carpenters) wear on House
>Invaders? I noticed today that Phil was wearing what I would call a
>sleeveless undershirt in grey.
>
>Kevin said that the discussion of training bras would not be relevant
>to his son, but is a singlet a garment only for a female, or can it be
>worn by a man? (I'm pretty clear about bras and camisoles being
>women's wear.) How about a tank top? I would have thought that was
>unisex.
>
Singlets and tank tops seem pretty much interchangeable. We tend to
wear specific brands of singlet as underwear and other types of tank
tops as outerwear. Anything of the tight knitwear style tends to be
called a singlet, whether under or outer wear, and anything looser or
cropped is a tank top.


--
Cheryl
Mum to DS#1 (11 Mar 99), DS#2 (4 Oct 00)
and DD (30 Jul 02)