Fifth Grade Girls

[Scott]

X-No-Archive: yes

In a word: Ugh.

DD has a friend who is trying to find out a "secret" about another,
mutual friend (Call her secret-keeper). So the secret-seeker calls
our house, cajoling,threatening, wheedling, to find out the secret.
Meanwhile, DD told another girl about the secret (which I'm plenty
annoyed about, although DD doesn't know I know), so the secret-
keeper is mad at DD and secret-seeker calls now trying to help DD
and secret-keeper make up, although first, of course, she has
to know the secret. <eyeroll>

Is keeping my nose out of this the best strategy to help my daughter?
We've had plenty of talks about the secret-seeker; both my
wife and I agree she is plenty toxic. DD knows secret-seeker's
modus operandi, but seemingly only recognizes it in hindsight.

Honestly, if secret-seeker spent as much time on schoolwork as
she did meddling in the lives of others, she'd be a star
student.

I will be very interested to experience 5th grade through the
lens of a boy when DS starts in a couple years.

Scott DD 10.5 and DS 8

[LFortier]

Scott wrote:
>
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> In a word: Ugh.
>

<snip>

>
> I will be very interested to experience 5th grade through the
> lens of a boy when DS starts in a couple years.
>
> Scott DD 10.5 and DS 8
>

I sympathize. I have a fifth grade girl, and thanks to the
luck of the draw of who landed in her homeroom, she's having
a not fun year. They're bossy, cliquey and some are down
right bullies. From what she's said, I don't know that the
boys are a whole lot better, though maybe in different ways.

Lesley

[Iowacookiemom]

(Distressing but typical 5th-grade story snipped)

>although DD doesn't know I know

Ah, I'm running in to the same thing. Henry (also 5th) is into instant
messaging, e-mail, etc., but isn't adept yet at covering his tracks, so I trip
along stuff I wish I didn't know (like the transcript of an IM conversation
where he was called "faggot" among other things). I'm so heavy into the "he
doesn't know I know" stuff right now... I am glad I'm not more of a snooper or
who knows what I would know!! Sigh!

>Is keeping my nose out of this the best strategy to help my daughter?

That's my dilemma too; no adivice here, just sympathy. For now I'm letting him
handle it, with an eye toward his demeanor... I don't want him to feel his
trust is betrayed (and truthfully I was not looking to snoop when I found this
stuff). IIRC it's pretty typical pre-teen angst stuff, as mean-spirited as it
seems.

The funny part is all the "who do you like?" type calls going on right now.

>I will be very interested to experience 5th grade through the
>lens of a boy when DS starts in a couple years.

I have a boy, and he and his male friends seem as caught up in it as the girls
:-P

-Dawn
Mom to Henry, 11

[Karen G]

It has been a while since fifth grade, but I work with Junior High kids
in my community. In my opinion, you need to stay out of it as much as
possible. While you can be available to listen to your daughter if she
has questions or wants your opinion, this is her social scene to learn
and adjust to. I see kids in the group who have had their parents
intervening often. It is really hard on them to cope with new
situations and mature in their social dealings.

If information is being exchanged that can hurt someone, then you should
address that directly, but if the secret is just average 5th grade kind
of stuff, let her handle who knows about it and who doesn't. The
intrigues and upsets of fifth-graders can be pretty interesting.

Karen G

[animzmirot]

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
>
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> In a word: Ugh.
>
You summed it up REALLY well. Except 6th grade girls are even worse.

My advice might not be popular but I'm learning the hard way... you
absolutely need to be on top of your daughter if she has a toxic friend. If
you don't, you're going to be facing a lot more serious things once they hit
middle school, things that can be life threatening and are extremely
dangerous although they will not believe you about this. My daughter didn't
have a very good 5th grade year. She was in a class where all the other kids
had *always* been together, many since preschool. She wasn't a part of that
clique, which made her life very unhappy. An extremely social kid with a ton
of friends, all of a sudden she was lonely and bullied and and didn't have a
playdate the entire year. Not one! Even her teacher admitted it was a
terrible year for my kid, and that the girls in that class were particularly
noxious. There were the two 'best friends' who wore the same clothes and had
the same hairstyles and were joined at the hip. Man, by the end of the year
I really hated those two. When they had a falling out, I was cheering! :-)
It was a bad year for a lot of girls, I later found out.

Come fall, they went to middle school which is large and has 3 big
elementary schools pouring into it. So there were new toxic girls to meet,
and DD did a great job of finding the most toxic of the toxic girls, who
befriended her. Such chaos ensued, you just don't want to know, and I'm not
posting it anyhow. If you want to email me, I'll be happy to give you a
short synopsis which will guarantee to curl your toes.

As I said, I learned the hard way. I started out by restricting the computer
so IMing plans couldn't happen. Then I learned to block the telephone so
Toxic Girl (TG) couldn't call anymore. Not that it stopped her, she stole
cell phones and used those with fake names until I caught on. I literally
had to get a restraining order on this kid to keep her away from our house.
When I say Toxic, I mean TOXIC. And this girl is so freaking popular. The
other kids think she's amazing!

DD kept getting more and more restrictions, but it's like she just lost her
mind this year, along with all the other 6th grade girls. It's scary to get
together with the other moms and compare notes. I mean, it would turn your
hair grey(er). We've had continual runaways, kids taking public
transportation to other towns, kids smoking tobacco and pot (not mine, thank
goodness), drinking, and some scary sexual promiscuity. We've had one
suicide and a suspected gang rape. And I swear it, I live in a VERY high
class, desirable community with excellent schools and very low crime. The
police youth officer, who I got to meet this year for the first time, just
quit his job after 16 years of service citing that this was just too tough a
year for him.

I'm sorry to be so negative, but it's been a year to remember and it's only
half over. Girls are really vicous. I've got a son the exact same age, and
he's definately got his share of troubles, but he's never caused me anywhere
near the anxiety as DD has, and he's finishing up middle school. He's been
in trouble, believe me, but it's more of the mouthing off, skipping classes,
running in the halls kind of trouble. He's *appalled* by his sister's
behaviour, but he reiterates over and over that she's not much different
than all the other girls in 6th grade.

So, my advice is, clamp down hard now, but let your daughter know how much
you love her and how you're being vigilent because you love her and worry
about her and want her to be safe. Play the safe card a lot. They need to
hear that this is what's going on, and not that you're just plain mean or
hate her, which they all thing once the hormones start raging!

Marjorie

[Marijke]

"animzmirot" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> I'm sorry to be so negative, but it's been a year to remember and it's
only
> half over. Girls are really vicous. I've got a son the exact same age, and
> he's definately got his share of troubles, but he's never caused me
anywhere
> near the anxiety as DD has, and he's finishing up middle school.

You have no idea how sad I was to read that you feel that most girls are
like this. My daughter is now in 9th grade and I never saw this type of
behaviour to that extent when she was in grades 5, 6 and 7. some, for sure.
But most were nice, polite girls and fun to be around.

In other words SOME girls are vicious. Others are not.

Marijke
in Montreal

[Scott]

Marijke wrote:
> "animzmirot" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>I'm sorry to be so negative, but it's been a year to remember and it's
>
> only
>
>>half over. Girls are really vicous. I've got a son the exact same age, and
>>he's definately got his share of troubles, but he's never caused me
>
> anywhere
>
>>near the anxiety as DD has, and he's finishing up middle school.
>
>
> You have no idea how sad I was to read that you feel that most girls are
> like this. My daughter is now in 9th grade and I never saw this type of
> behaviour to that extent when she was in grades 5, 6 and 7. some, for sure.
> But most were nice, polite girls and fun to be around.
>
> In other words SOME girls are vicious. Others are not.

Thanks for all the comments.

I think I'm lucky that DD is not at a point that she'll
befriend toxic little Miss secret-seeker just to drive
me crazy. I also think that it's important not to react
too strongly to toxic kids -- that only builds them up
in the eyes of other kids, IMO, when they get such a
strong reaction from adults (Hey Cool! Look at what
Toxina can get Mr. Smith to do!) So far I just ask
DD to consider why Toxina (I like that name) is doing
what she does and why she says what she does. If I
answer the phone and Toxina is calling, maybe I'll
forget to give DD the message 'til it's too late to
call back (they're not in the same classroom, so it's
not like she calls about assignments). I don't think
DD is into IM'ing yet.

DD has some wonderful friends. Last year there were
similar problems with other girls in her class,
but she sailed blissfully through them. That's not
happening quite as much this year.

Next year is middle school in a new school. Yikes!


Scott DD 10.5 and DS 8

[Banty]

In article >, Scott says...

>
>I think I'm lucky that DD is not at a point that she'll
>befriend toxic little Miss secret-seeker just to drive
>me crazy. I also think that it's important not to react
>too strongly to toxic kids -- that only builds them up
>in the eyes of other kids, IMO, when they get such a
>strong reaction from adults (Hey Cool! Look at what
>Toxina can get Mr. Smith to do!) So far I just ask
>DD to consider why Toxina (I like that name) is doing
>what she does and why she says what she does. If I
>answer the phone and Toxina is calling, maybe I'll
>forget to give DD the message 'til it's too late to
>call back (they're not in the same classroom, so it's
>not like she calls about assignments). I don't think
>DD is into IM'ing yet.

I agree that not much should be made of it if it's not necessary to. With my 11
year old (boy), I usually treat these things in a "aren't they silly" kind of
discussion. I would ask "gee - WHY does Toxina need to know the secret? Isnt'
that a dumb thing to bother with?"

It's worth a try - of course one may run into the ubiquitous pre-teen "::tut:::
:::heavy sigh::: - What do yooooou know, Mom??" :-)

But I think he's picked up on the practical kind of thinking behind that.

Cheers,
Banty

[animzmirot]

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> Marijke wrote:
> > "animzmirot" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> >>I'm sorry to be so negative, but it's been a year to remember and it's
> >
> > only
> >
> >>half over. Girls are really vicous. I've got a son the exact same age,
and
> >>he's definately got his share of troubles, but he's never caused me
> >
> > anywhere
> >
> >>near the anxiety as DD has, and he's finishing up middle school.
> >
> >
> > You have no idea how sad I was to read that you feel that most girls are
> > like this. My daughter is now in 9th grade and I never saw this type of
> > behaviour to that extent when she was in grades 5, 6 and 7. some, for
sure.
> > But most were nice, polite girls and fun to be around.
> >
> > In other words SOME girls are vicious. Others are not.
>
> Thanks for all the comments.
>
> I think I'm lucky that DD is not at a point that she'll
> befriend toxic little Miss secret-seeker just to drive
> me crazy. I also think that it's important not to react
> too strongly to toxic kids -- that only builds them up
> in the eyes of other kids, IMO, when they get such a
> strong reaction from adults (Hey Cool! Look at what
> Toxina can get Mr. Smith to do!) So far I just ask
> DD to consider why Toxina (I like that name) is doing
> what she does and why she says what she does. If I
> answer the phone and Toxina is calling, maybe I'll
> forget to give DD the message 'til it's too late to
> call back (they're not in the same classroom, so it's
> not like she calls about assignments). I don't think
> DD is into IM'ing yet.
>
Well, our Toxina (I love the name too, and am adopting it as of this moment)
spent the day in court today, and I don't know the results, but I'm assuming
that she will no longer be at our school and will be joining the ranks of
kids under CPS control. I'm surprised I can't hear the outbreak of glorious
applause from parents all over the city. For those of you who haven't had a
Toxina in your life, be very very thankful. I've been living the movie
Thirteen for the past few months and it really really is scary how true to
life that film gets.

Marjorie

[Scott]

animzmirot wrote:

>
> Well, our Toxina (I love the name too, and am adopting it as of this moment)
> spent the day in court today, and I don't know the results, but I'm assuming
> that she will no longer be at our school and will be joining the ranks of
> kids under CPS control. I'm surprised I can't hear the outbreak of glorious
> applause from parents all over the city. For those of you who haven't had a
> Toxina in your life, be very very thankful. I've been living the movie
> Thirteen for the past few months and it really really is scary how true to
> life that film gets.
>
> Marjorie

Yikes.

Here's to the hope that your life simplifies now.

Scott DD 10.5 and DS 8

[Ruth Baltopoulos]

Scott wrote:

>> I think I'm lucky that DD is not at a point that she'll
>> befriend toxic little Miss secret-seeker just to drive
>> me crazy. I also think that it's important not to react
>> too strongly to toxic kids -- that only builds them up
>> in the eyes of other kids, IMO, when they get such a
>> strong reaction from adults (Hey Cool! Look at what
>> Toxina can get Mr. Smith to do!) [...]

We have been dealing with a somewhat toxic child over here
as well. My girls are a bit older now, 16 & 17, but their
Toxina has been a part of our lives since they were about 9
& 10. The hard part about our girl is that her mother,
Beastina, has been an ongoing negative force in her life and
she has other real life issues as well. I *like* the kid,
but I have decided that I will not allow her to drag my kids
down some of the paths that she is wandering.

I have always felt it best to be very non-reactive and treat
her as I do everyone else, whilst talking with my kids about
motivations in general. It is not that they are unaware of
the negative aspects of their friend, but they enjoy her
company; she is very charismatic and a ring-leader amongst
her peers. Some of the challenges are that she is very
controlling, very experimental for lack of a better term,
exhibits fits of jealousy (hard, because she hangs out with
*both* of my girls) and suffers from the Center of the
Universe Syndrome :)

I finally took a stand, as they are getting older and some
of the 'foolishness' is getting more serious, and spoke with
my girls *and* Toxina. In a nutshell, I explained to all of
them that I was not going to sit by quietly and watch them
make significant errors in judgment. I told Miss T that she
was the one part of the equation that I could easily remove.
She, and most of the other teenagers, spend a substantial
amount of time at my home. I reiterated that I expected a
certain type of behavior while they were here. I explained
to her that I would begin restricting my girls from driving
with her as well, as she has basically ruined her vehicle
and drives as if the hounds of hell are on her heels. I
mentioned to all of them that rational and mature behavior
would result in similar treatment from me. I also indicated
that I was at the end of my rope.

I was worried that the confrontation might immediately
result in more fractiousness but, knock wood, things have
actually improved :)
--
Ruth B -- Remove your blinders to send email :)

Stewie (reading the Bible): "My my, what a thumping good
read, lions eating Christians, people nailing each other to
two by fours. I'll say, you won't find that in Winnie the
Pooh."



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2/26/2004

[Nick Theodorakis]

On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:40:49 EST, "animzmirot" >
wrote:


[...]

>>
>Well, our Toxina ...

Believe it or not, I saw an letter in the newspaper written by a girl
named "Nemesis."

>... (I love the name too, and am adopting it as of this moment)
>spent the day in court today, and I don't know the results, but I'm assuming
>that she will no longer be at our school and will be joining the ranks of
>kids under CPS control. I'm surprised I can't hear the outbreak of glorious
>applause from parents all over the city. For those of you who haven't had a
>Toxina in your life, be very very thankful. I've been living the movie
>Thirteen for the past few months and it really really is scary how true to
>life that film gets.

You've given me something to think about for when our girls (9yo now)
get a little older.

Do I remember correctly that you also have twins? Was there any
support for your DD from her sibling?

Nick

--
Nick Theodorakis

nicholas_theodorakis [at] urmc [dot] rochester [dot] edu

[animzmirot]

"Nick Theodorakis" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 08:40:49 EST, "animzmirot" >
> wrote:
>
>
> [...]
>
> >>
> >Well, our Toxina ...
>
> Believe it or not, I saw an letter in the newspaper written by a girl
> named "Nemesis."
>
> >... (I love the name too, and am adopting it as of this moment)
> >spent the day in court today, and I don't know the results, but I'm
assuming
> >that she will no longer be at our school and will be joining the ranks of
> >kids under CPS control. I'm surprised I can't hear the outbreak of
glorious
> >applause from parents all over the city. For those of you who haven't had
a
> >Toxina in your life, be very very thankful. I've been living the movie
> >Thirteen for the past few months and it really really is scary how true
to
> >life that film gets.
>
> You've given me something to think about for when our girls (9yo now)
> get a little older.
>
> Do I remember correctly that you also have twins? Was there any
> support for your DD from her sibling?

I do have twins, but they are quite far apart in school and have a
completely different social life (thank goodness!) and totally different
interests. DS has been extremely supportive of his sister once he figured
out that all this has caused her immense emotional pain and has really
wrecked her social life for the time being. He absolutely HATES Toxina and
is not shy about letting her know, but she's so beyond help that she just
doesn't seem to get it, even when he organized all his friends to completely
snub her. And since they're all 'older men', that probably did a bit to
wreck her impression of herself as a sexpot.

The thing is, when a girl gets into one of these toxic relationships, it's
almost always because the Toxina knows to manipulate the innocent ones. In
our case, Toxina found DD, and 3 of her friends, all of whom have IEPS and
work in the learning center. It's like Toxina went looking for a few fragile
kids who just didn't have the wherewithall to stand up to her (she's about
5'6 and 140 lbs in the 6th grade, and VERY fully developed...she looks about
16). I'm not saying that any of these kids are blameless, they're not. But
they're just no match for Toxena and she plays one against the other like a
master. Just tonight I had to spead to two different moms because she was
playing their daughters like a violin, having them 3-way our house to try
and get in touch with DD. She didn't succeed, but man, one parent was so
livid I thought she would have heart failure. She actually called Toxina a
'skanky ho', something I've never heard said outside of Sat. Night Live!

This stuff isn't for the faint of heart, but when a kid like this is in your
daughter's school, no matter how large the school is, she's going to affect
the entire grade. Our middle school has over 1300 kids and this girl has
wreaked havock with most of the girls in 6th grade. It's frightening how
little the school can do, and how long it takes CPS to act, even when they
know that the child is in a neglectful home situation and is causing severe
harm to many many families..

Marjorie