View Full Version : My OB and my Birth Plan
Cuddlefish
July 13th 05, 04:30 PM
So yesterday during my 38th week check up I gave my OB my birth plan. He
looked it over, and then appeared rather puzzled.
"I'm afraid you are missing something here, my dear," he said.
"Oh?"
"Yes! There are no notes here on what to do for when hubby faints!"
Tee hee. I explained that was covered under my disclaimer where I wrote I
haven't planned for every contingency. ;-)
--
Jacqueline
#1 Due late Jul/early Aug
Shell
July 14th 05, 12:00 AM
"Cuddlefish" > wrote in message
news:JsaBe.1949636$6l.357584@pd7tw2no...
> So yesterday during my 38th week check up I gave my OB my birth plan. He
> looked it over, and then appeared rather puzzled.
>
> "I'm afraid you are missing something here, my dear," he said.
>
> "Oh?"
>
> "Yes! There are no notes here on what to do for when hubby faints!"
>
> Tee hee. I explained that was covered under my disclaimer where I wrote I
> haven't planned for every contingency. ;-)
>
> --
> Jacqueline
> #1 Due late Jul/early Aug
LOL!
~Shell
Cuddlefish wrote:
> So yesterday during my 38th week check up I gave my OB my birth plan. He
> looked it over, and then appeared rather puzzled.
>
> "I'm afraid you are missing something here, my dear," he said.
>
> "Oh?"
>
> "Yes! There are no notes here on what to do for when hubby faints!"
>
> Tee hee. I explained that was covered under my disclaimer where I wrote I
> haven't planned for every contingency. ;-)
>
Maybe he was calling you a bitch in a sarcastic manner. ;)
But anyway, for your reading pleasure:
http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000617049925/
> Jacqueline
> #1 Due late Jul/early Aug
Regards...
Marty
July 14th 05, 12:16 AM
Shell wrote:
> "Cuddlefish" > wrote in message
> news:JsaBe.1949636$6l.357584@pd7tw2no...
> > So yesterday during my 38th week check up I gave my OB my birth plan. He
> > looked it over, and then appeared rather puzzled.> >
> > "I'm afraid you are missing something here, my dear," he said.> >
> > "Oh?"> >
> > "Yes! There are no notes here on what to do for when hubby faints!"> >
> > Tee hee. I explained that was covered under my disclaimer where I wrote I
> > haven't planned for every contingency. ;-)
Jacqueline,
I believe your doctor was being a bit sarcastic, but I think you were
very wise to have a birth plan. With our first son's birth we brought
over a dozen copies of our birth plan to the hospital with us and the
staff "Lost" at least half....none the less we perservered...and got
the birth we wanted.
martin
Marty wrote:
>
> Jacqueline,
> I believe your doctor was being a bit sarcastic, but I think you were
> very wise to have a birth plan. With our first son's birth we brought
> over a dozen copies of our birth plan to the hospital with us and the
> staff "Lost" at least half
That should have been a clue that birth plans are a waste of time and
might hinder your chances of having a natural birth.
>....none the less we perservered...and got
> the birth we wanted.
I'm glad. Did it come with a side of fries?
> martin
Regards...
Did he really say "my dear" and "hubby"? Ick. I'd be tempted to smile
sweetly and say, "Channeling the fifties, are we?"
--Helen
Cuddlefish
July 14th 05, 11:41 PM
> wrote in message
ps.com...
> Did he really say "my dear" and "hubby"? Ick. I'd be tempted to smile
> sweetly and say, "Channeling the fifties, are we?"
>
> --Helen
He sure did. ;-) My OB really is a sweetheart with a tremendous sense of
humour. He is Scottish, and kind of 'old school'. Even his dad was an OB. I
find his relaxed, laid back approach very refreshing; but then again I do
live in Vancouver where 'relaxed' and 'laid back' is how we do everything.
;-)
I should say I too use 'my dear' and 'hubby'. I am definitely not old enough
to know the 50s, and I am Australian. We speak differently to many other
people... ;-)
--
Jacqueline
#1 Due late Jul/early Aug
arachne
July 14th 05, 11:53 PM
"Cuddlefish" > wrote in message
news:9SBBe.1955644$Xk.1425212@pd7tw3no...
> > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> Did he really say "my dear" and "hubby"? Ick. I'd be tempted to smile
>> sweetly and say, "Channeling the fifties, are we?"
>>
>> --Helen
>
> He sure did. ;-) My OB really is a sweetheart with a tremendous sense of
> humour. He is Scottish, and kind of 'old school'. Even his dad was an OB.
> I find his relaxed, laid back approach very refreshing; but then again I
> do live in Vancouver where 'relaxed' and 'laid back' is how we do
> everything. ;-)
>
> I should say I too use 'my dear' and 'hubby'. I am definitely not old
> enough to know the 50s, and I am Australian. We speak differently to many
> other people... ;-)
i'm in australia too. we all say hubby around here quite a bit.
and i would expect anyone over 45 to say my dear. and quite a few younger
depending on where they were brought up.
--
elizabeth (in australia)
DS 20th august 2002
#2 due 14th october 2005
*** a mathematician named saul, had a tetrahedronical ball, the cube of it's
weight, in ounces plus eight, is his phone number, give him a call! ***
Jacqueline wrote:
"I should say I too use 'my dear' and 'hubby'. I am definitely not old
enough
to know the 50s, and I am Australian. We speak differently to many
other
people... ;-)"
Ah, okay, that makes sense then. Sorry I misinterpreted the tone.
--Helen
wrote:
> Cuddlefish wrote:
> > So yesterday during my 38th week check up I gave my OB my birth plan. He
> > looked it over, and then appeared rather puzzled.
> >
> > "I'm afraid you are missing something here, my dear," he said.
> >
> > "Oh?"
> >
> > "Yes! There are no notes here on what to do for when hubby faints!"
> >
> > Tee hee. I explained that was covered under my disclaimer where I wrote I
> > haven't planned for every contingency. ;-)
> >
>
> Maybe he was calling you a bitch in a sarcastic manner. ;)
>
> But anyway, for your reading pleasure:
> http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000617049925/
>
I found this little piece on another newsgroup. I'm not even a nurse,
but even I know enough about human nature that telling people how to do
their job is not a good idea...:
"I've noticed a recent increase in these [Online Birth Plans]. Anyone
else? One time prospective parents sat down and actually planned there
deliveries, with there Doc's/Midwives. Theses are carbon copies, made
on the DAY of admission. The OB's just shake there heads at the
ludicrous print outs.
I wish not to have a C/S. Of course most of us (childbearing adults)
definitely wish to avoid them, Duhhhhhhh. I wish to eat and drink
whatever I
want during labor. Sorry Honey, us nurses don't want to see it later.
Nothing more fun than trying to push out a baby, and puke at the same
time.
My husband will preform perineal massage, to avoid episiotomy. Good
grief,
I've YET to see a husband do that. But every birth plan has it. I want
fetal scalp blood sampling to prove need for emergency C/S. Ok lets
poke a hole in your kids head, so he can bleed for us. Also that's not
done
at all where I work. It didn't seem to change outcomes. I want cytotec
or prostin gel, instead of pitocin. Has anyone told these people the
dangers of cytotec???? Like you just can't stop it like a bag of
pitocin! What it is originally intended for. That the manufacturer
isn't
happy about it's new use. That it is NOT FDA approved for
augmenting/inducing labor. It just goes on and on. For those that may
be reading this, are pregnant, or planning to be. PLEASE sit down with
your practitioner and discuss the options, for a sensible birth plan.
Not an internet drop down bar.
I've have been a nurse for 23 yrs. The past 5 exclusively in L&D. Any
L&D
nurse will tell you. A birth plan is a kiss of death. The first thing
to go
out the window is the desire to have a "natural" childbirth. No
induction,
no pitocin, etc etc etc.
So please attend a qualified childbirth class, actually several, and
speak
to your provider first. "
A bit of harsh reality delivered to you from the horse's mouth. The
reply she got from another poster was not pleasant, but neither is
reality.
Regards...
Melania
July 23rd 05, 07:17 AM
wrote:
> wrote:
> > Cuddlefish wrote:
> > > So yesterday during my 38th week check up I gave my OB my birth plan. He
> > > looked it over, and then appeared rather puzzled.
> > >
> > > "I'm afraid you are missing something here, my dear," he said.
> > >
> > > "Oh?"
> > >
> > > "Yes! There are no notes here on what to do for when hubby faints!"
> > >
> > > Tee hee. I explained that was covered under my disclaimer where I wrote I
> > > haven't planned for every contingency. ;-)
> > >
> >
> > Maybe he was calling you a bitch in a sarcastic manner. ;)
> >
> > But anyway, for your reading pleasure:
> > http://www.bloggingbaby.com/entry/1234000617049925/
> >
>
> I found this little piece on another newsgroup. I'm not even a nurse,
> but even I know enough about human nature that telling people how to do
> their job is not a good idea...:
>
> "I've noticed a recent increase in these [Online Birth Plans]. Anyone
> else? One time prospective parents sat down and actually planned there
> deliveries, with there Doc's/Midwives. Theses are carbon copies, made
> on the DAY of admission. The OB's just shake there heads at the
> ludicrous print outs.
> I wish not to have a C/S. Of course most of us (childbearing adults)
> definitely wish to avoid them, Duhhhhhhh. I wish to eat and drink
> whatever I
> want during labor. Sorry Honey, us nurses don't want to see it later.
> Nothing more fun than trying to push out a baby, and puke at the same
> time.
> My husband will preform perineal massage, to avoid episiotomy. Good
> grief,
> I've YET to see a husband do that. But every birth plan has it. I want
> fetal scalp blood sampling to prove need for emergency C/S. Ok lets
> poke a hole in your kids head, so he can bleed for us. Also that's not
> done
> at all where I work. It didn't seem to change outcomes. I want cytotec
> or prostin gel, instead of pitocin. Has anyone told these people the
> dangers of cytotec???? Like you just can't stop it like a bag of
> pitocin! What it is originally intended for. That the manufacturer
> isn't
> happy about it's new use. That it is NOT FDA approved for
> augmenting/inducing labor. It just goes on and on. For those that may
> be reading this, are pregnant, or planning to be. PLEASE sit down with
> your practitioner and discuss the options, for a sensible birth plan.
> Not an internet drop down bar.
> I've have been a nurse for 23 yrs. The past 5 exclusively in L&D. Any
> L&D
> nurse will tell you. A birth plan is a kiss of death. The first thing
> to go
> out the window is the desire to have a "natural" childbirth. No
> induction,
> no pitocin, etc etc etc.
> So please attend a qualified childbirth class, actually several, and
> speak
> to your provider first. "
>
> A bit of harsh reality delivered to you from the horse's mouth. The
> reply she got from another poster was not pleasant, but neither is
> reality.
>
> Regards...
Did you even read what you just posted? The nurse you're quoting is
lambasting women who print off online birth plans to use, instead of
educating themselves and drafting a sensible birth plan with their care
provider. She's seen enough flaky birth plans brought in by women who
don't understand what they're requesting that she's sick of it, but she
still advises women to "sit down with your provider, and discuss the
options. For a sensible birth plan." She's not against birth plans in
general, and I'm sure she wouldn't have a problem with Cuddlefish's.
Melania
Melania wrote:
>
> Did you even read what you just posted? The nurse you're quoting is
> lambasting women who print off online birth plans to use, instead of
> educating themselves and drafting a sensible birth plan with their care
> provider. She's seen enough flaky birth plans brought in by women who
> don't understand what they're requesting that she's sick of it, but she
> still advises women to "sit down with your provider, and discuss the
> options. For a sensible birth plan." She's not against birth plans in
> general, and I'm sure she wouldn't have a problem with Cuddlefish's.
Yeah, I read it. I took it to mean that birth plans are not suggested,
but if you're going to have one, make sure they are sensible (meaning
"don't be a bitch!")
What did you think about the following?:
I've have been a nurse for 23 yrs. The past 5 exclusively in L&D. Any
L&D
nurse will tell you. A birth plan is a kiss of death. The first thing
to go
out the window is the desire to have a "natural" childbirth. No
induction,
no pitocin, etc etc etc. "
So how are you adjusting to the random night time "feed me" calls? ;)
> Melania
Regards...
Cuddlefish
July 23rd 05, 07:39 AM
"Melania" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Did you even read what you just posted? The nurse you're quoting is
> lambasting women who print off online birth plans to use, instead of
> educating themselves and drafting a sensible birth plan with their care
> provider. She's seen enough flaky birth plans brought in by women who
> don't understand what they're requesting that she's sick of it, but she
> still advises women to "sit down with your provider, and discuss the
> options. For a sensible birth plan." She's not against birth plans in
> general, and I'm sure she wouldn't have a problem with Cuddlefish's.
Indeed. My OB actally *complemented* my birth plan and *thanked me* for
sharing it on our last visit. He said he looked it over at his leisure and
feels that I am going to end up with a birth quite like what I would prefer
because of my obvious education of things birthy and my flexibility should
the situation require it.
I realise not everyone has such a good experience, but so far I am thrilled
with the level of care I have received.
--
Jacqueline
#1 Due late Jul/early Aug
sharalyns
July 23rd 05, 06:36 PM
wrote:
> What did you think about the following?:
> I've have been a nurse for 23 yrs. The past 5 exclusively in L&D. Any
> L&D
> nurse will tell you. A birth plan is a kiss of death. The first thing
> to go
> out the window is the desire to have a "natural" childbirth. No
> induction,
> no pitocin, etc etc etc. "
I've been an RN for 6 years now, and I've worked just about all
departments with the exception of ER, ICU, and NICU. However, I have
been a parent of a child in the NICU. I floated to labor and delivery,
and I was *appalled* at the attitudes of the staff. Absolutely there is
a need for patients to come in with birth plans that they have
*researched*, and it is only responsible to discuss things with your
care provider before showing up at the hospital. However, the majority
of providers do *not* provide education (this is across the board in
medicine, not specific to L&D), they just tell people what they are
*going* to do without offering all the alternatives or the reasons why
they think "X" is the best thing to do in a given situation. I have
seen patients bullied into care that they would not have chosen for
themselves or for their children had they known the facts. But because
they are in a crisis situation, they rely on their care provider, who
does not necessarily have the patient's best interest in mind--they are
just covering their bums or playing God or feeding their ego or are too
rushed. There are always exceptions to this, but after 6 years in
everything from Pediatric Oncology to adult Med/Surg to L&D/ Postpartum
to Rehab, I research a *ton* before making decisions for my family's
care. I know this can be frustrating to the providers caring for me and
my family, but guess what--I am the best advocate for my family because
I know the system, and I'm the only one looking out for my family's
best interest (along with my husband).
The nurse who wrote this may have been frustrated with uneducated
people just printing stuff off, but her attitude is on par with
ranchers working cattle. That's a poor attitude for someone providing
care for *people*. And that's a sad reality of health care today.
Sharalyn
mom to Alexander James (9/21/01)
It sure is (sad reality of health care today). People lose focus on the
situation at hand and only look at their own individuality. Thanks for
posting.
Regards...
sharalyns wrote:
>
> The nurse who wrote this may have been frustrated with uneducated
> people just printing stuff off, but her attitude is on par with
> ranchers working cattle. That's a poor attitude for someone providing
> care for *people*. And that's a sad reality of health care today.
>
> Sharalyn
> mom to Alexander James (9/21/01)
Cuddlefish wrote:
> "Melania" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > Did you even read what you just posted? The nurse you're quoting is
> > lambasting women who print off online birth plans to use, instead of
> > educating themselves and drafting a sensible birth plan with their care
> > provider. She's seen enough flaky birth plans brought in by women who
> > don't understand what they're requesting that she's sick of it, but she
> > still advises women to "sit down with your provider, and discuss the
> > options. For a sensible birth plan." She's not against birth plans in
> > general, and I'm sure she wouldn't have a problem with Cuddlefish's.
>
> Indeed. My OB actally *complemented* my birth plan and *thanked me* for
> sharing it on our last visit. He said he looked it over at his leisure and
> feels that I am going to end up with a birth quite like what I would prefer
> because of my obvious education of things birthy and my flexibility should
> the situation require it.
I see.
> I realise not everyone has such a good experience, but so far I am thrilled
> with the level of care I have received.
>
Let me know how the c-section goes.
> Jacqueline
> #1 Due late Jul/early Aug
Regards...
Cathy Weeks
July 26th 05, 03:56 PM
wrote:
> I found this little piece on another newsgroup. I'm not even a nurse,
> but even I know enough about human nature that telling people how to do
> their job is not a good idea...:
So what would you suggest people do, when the hospital has policies and
procedures that are statistically proven to cause complications?
Now, I personally did something radical - My husband and I chose to
have a homebirth, to avoid the stupid hospital rules that would have
likely led to me not having as healthy and peaceful a birth.
I too had a birthplan, and my midwives read it seriously, suggested one
change to it because they disagreed, and we ageed to the change.
Cathy Weeks
Melania
July 26th 05, 04:05 PM
wrote:
> Melania wrote:
> >
> > Did you even read what you just posted? The nurse you're quoting is
> > lambasting women who print off online birth plans to use, instead of
> > educating themselves and drafting a sensible birth plan with their care
> > provider. She's seen enough flaky birth plans brought in by women who
> > don't understand what they're requesting that she's sick of it, but she
> > still advises women to "sit down with your provider, and discuss the
> > options. For a sensible birth plan." She's not against birth plans in
> > general, and I'm sure she wouldn't have a problem with Cuddlefish's.
>
> Yeah, I read it. I took it to mean that birth plans are not suggested,
> but if you're going to have one, make sure they are sensible (meaning
> "don't be a bitch!")
>
> What did you think about the following?:
> I've have been a nurse for 23 yrs. The past 5 exclusively in L&D. Any
> L&D
> nurse will tell you. A birth plan is a kiss of death. The first thing
> to go
> out the window is the desire to have a "natural" childbirth. No
> induction,
> no pitocin, etc etc etc. "
What did I think? I thought "here's a woman who's had some frustrating
times with clueless moms with bad/carbon copy birth plans, and who's
venting that frustration in a newsgroup." The whole post is clearly in
rant mode, and I took the above statement with a grain of salt, since
elsewhere in her post she takes the time to recommend that expectant
mothers compose a birth plan in cooperation with their care provider. I
agreed with the other poster who remarked that this nurse was talking
about labouring mothers the way ranchers might talk about cattle, but I
gave her the benefit of the doubt and assumed that it was her
frustration that gave it that tone.
>
> So how are you adjusting to the random night time "feed me" calls? ;)
We're co-sleeping, and I can nurse in my sleep, so it's going very
well, thank you.
Melania
The thing about birth plans is they give you something to point at for
your wishes when you are in the throes of labor. I think they are a
good idea. I did write one for my third birth, but since I ended up
delivering in the car (which was better than having to argue with
medical professionals anyway) I didn't need it.
At my first birth I thought I should just do what the medical
professionals said. By the time I was at my third birth, I knew
better.
You can see by the comment about eating and drinking that the nurse
cares more about herself than about how her patients feel. I've never
puked during delivery or labor, and I ate during 2 of my labors, and
was tortured without food in the other one.
agsf, you don't generally come across as the kind of wimp who thinks he
shouldn't tell someone how to do their job when he is the customer, and
yet here you are telling us that telling people how to do their job is
not a good idea. I think it is a good idea when it's my skin on the
line.
I have had alot of health problems already in my life, and I have found
doctors to be wrong in what they wanted to do quite frequently. Hell
if I am going to hold my tongue and not tell them what to do when it is
my life and health on the line.
KC
wrote:
>
> I found this little piece on another newsgroup. I'm not even a nurse,
> but even I know enough about human nature that telling people how to do
> their job is not a good idea...:
>
> "I've noticed a recent increase in these [Online Birth Plans]. Anyone
> else? One time prospective parents sat down and actually planned there
> deliveries, with there Doc's/Midwives. Theses are carbon copies, made
> on the DAY of admission. The OB's just shake there heads at the
> ludicrous print outs.
> I wish not to have a C/S. Of course most of us (childbearing adults)
> definitely wish to avoid them, Duhhhhhhh. I wish to eat and drink
> whatever I
> want during labor. Sorry Honey, us nurses don't want to see it later.
> Nothing more fun than trying to push out a baby, and puke at the same
> time.
> My husband will preform perineal massage, to avoid episiotomy. Good
> grief,
> I've YET to see a husband do that. But every birth plan has it. I want
> fetal scalp blood sampling to prove need for emergency C/S. Ok lets
> poke a hole in your kids head, so he can bleed for us. Also that's not
> done
> at all where I work. It didn't seem to change outcomes. I want cytotec
> or prostin gel, instead of pitocin. Has anyone told these people the
> dangers of cytotec???? Like you just can't stop it like a bag of
> pitocin! What it is originally intended for. That the manufacturer
> isn't
> happy about it's new use. That it is NOT FDA approved for
> augmenting/inducing labor. It just goes on and on. For those that may
> be reading this, are pregnant, or planning to be. PLEASE sit down with
> your practitioner and discuss the options, for a sensible birth plan.
> Not an internet drop down bar.
> I've have been a nurse for 23 yrs. The past 5 exclusively in L&D. Any
> L&D
> nurse will tell you. A birth plan is a kiss of death. The first thing
> to go
> out the window is the desire to have a "natural" childbirth. No
> induction,
> no pitocin, etc etc etc.
> So please attend a qualified childbirth class, actually several, and
> speak
> to your provider first. "
>
> A bit of harsh reality delivered to you from the horse's mouth. The
> reply she got from another poster was not pleasant, but neither is
> reality.
>
> Regards...
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > I found this little piece on another newsgroup. I'm not even a nurse,
> > but even I know enough about human nature that telling people how to do
> > their job is not a good idea...:
>
> So what would you suggest people do, when the hospital has policies and
> procedures that are statistically proven to cause complications?
>
> Now, I personally did something radical - My husband and I chose to
> have a homebirth, to avoid the stupid hospital rules that would have
> likely led to me not having as healthy and peaceful a birth.
>
> I too had a birthplan, and my midwives read it seriously, suggested one
> change to it because they disagreed, and we ageed to the change.
What you did is perfect. You had an issue with the policies and
procedures of your local hospital, therefore you took the responsible
path by controlling the situation at hand.
Just out of curiosity, what would you have done if you needed an
emergency c-section?
> Cathy Weeks
Regards...
KC wrote:
> The thing about birth plans is they give you something to point at for
> your wishes when you are in the throes of labor. I think they are a
> good idea.
And point of view is that you and your spouse/boyfriend/life
partner/some_guy_you_met_on_the_street and your doctor should sit down
and discuss and understand all your options.
> You can see by the comment about eating and drinking that the nurse
> cares more about herself than about how her patients feel.
Well, such is the nature of people today. From the nurse's point of
view, you care more about yourself than how she feels. After all,
she/he has bills to pay, a family to worry about and his/her own life
worries. The last thing he/she needs is another person to say "here is
my birth plan, please bring me my hamburger and fries" and then deal
with your mess.
> agsf, you don't generally come across as the kind of wimp who thinks he
> shouldn't tell someone how to do their job when he is the customer,
Actually, if the expectation of services and/or goods are not met, I
inform the manager. But, I take responsibility for the way I spend
money and take my business elsewhere.
> and
> yet here you are telling us that telling people how to do their job is
> not a good idea.
It's not. You have to understand, they are only human and being such,
might react negatively towards you.
> I think it is a good idea when it's my skin on the
> line.
Then be better prepared.
> I have had alot of health problems already in my life, and I have found
> doctors to be wrong in what they wanted to do quite frequently. Hell
> if I am going to hold my tongue and not tell them what to do when it is
> my life and health on the line.
You have a right to change doctors.
> KC
Regards...
wrote:
> KC wrote:
> > The thing about birth plans is they give you something to point at for
> > your wishes when you are in the throes of labor. I think they are a
> > good idea.
>
> And point of view is that you and your spouse/boyfriend/life
> partner/some_guy_you_met_on_the_street and your doctor should sit down
> and discuss and understand all your options.
The thing is we shouldn't have to get permission from a doctor. He is
in our employ if we or our insurance companies are paying him. He
should be doing what we want him to, not what we don't want him to. In
my case because I have complications, the doctors want to do alot of
things that will make me suffer more during labor like: IV, constant
fetal monitoring, and no food. If I try to discuss that I don't want
these things they will argue with me. I have no desire to argue or to
try to get their permission. I simply want my birth how I want it. If
I am willing to put up with the risk of not doing an IV or constant
fetal monitoring, then that should be that. So, I find it easier to
spring that on them late in the game with a birth plan, than to argue
about what I want ahead of time. It's easy to say change doctors, but
it isn't always easy to do for a person with complications.
>
>
> > You can see by the comment about eating and drinking that the nurse
> > cares more about herself than about how her patients feel.
>
> Well, such is the nature of people today. From the nurse's point of
> view, you care more about yourself than how she feels.
Well, I do care about myself more of course, but I am not being paid to
be her nurse. And, the bigger point is that women need strength to
labor and birth a child, so they shouldn't be starved. And during the
birth, the primary focus should be on the mother not on the nurse.
Most of the things in a birth plan are usually telling a nurse to do
less, not to do more, so she should quit her bitching.
>
> > agsf, you don't generally come across as the kind of wimp who thinks he
> > shouldn't tell someone how to do their job when he is the customer,
>
> Actually, if the expectation of services and/or goods are not met, I
> inform the manager. But, I take responsibility for the way I spend
> money and take my business elsewhere.
>
> > and
> > yet here you are telling us that telling people how to do their job is
> > not a good idea.
>
> It's not. You have to understand, they are only human and being such,
> might react negatively towards you.
>
I am more concerned with making sure that I do not allow anything
detrimental to me or the baby to be done than I am concerned with them
reacting negatively to me.
> > I think it is a good idea when it's my skin on the
> > line.
>
> Then be better prepared.
I am not sure what you mean here about being better prepared.
>
> > I have had alot of health problems already in my life, and I have found
> > doctors to be wrong in what they wanted to do quite frequently. Hell
> > if I am going to hold my tongue and not tell them what to do when it is
> > my life and health on the line.
>
> You have a right to change doctors.
Of course I do, but there is not always another doctor to switch to
within a reasonable distance, so a person has to keep their doctor and
work to not allow the doctor to do the wrong thing.
I think you will learn as you age and have more medical problems, that
you cannot ever let doctors make decisions for you (except in
unexpected emergency situations). You listen to the choices, you
research and you decide, and you argue with them to get what you have
decided upon if necessary. You can also switch doctors, but sometimes
it is more practical to fight for what you want rather than to
constantly be switching doctors. Doctors do not always do the right
things for people, so it really isn't safe to not be very proactive
with medical situations. It's too bad I have already learned this the
hard way, and I sincerely hope that you don't have to learn it the hard
way.
KC
Amy
July 27th 05, 02:34 PM
wrote:
> KC wrote:
> > You can see by the comment about eating and drinking that the nurse
> > cares more about herself than about how her patients feel.
>
> Well, such is the nature of people today. From the nurse's point of
> view, you care more about yourself than how she feels. After all,
> she/he has bills to pay, a family to worry about and his/her own life
> worries. The last thing he/she needs is another person to say "here is
> my birth plan, please bring me my hamburger and fries" and then deal
> with your mess.
Are you freaking kidding me? It's her JOB to worry about me and my
comfort during labor. It is NOT my job to worry about her bills, her
family, or her "life worries," whatever the hell that means.
Sometimes I think that you're really Jamie (or someone, but Jamie is
the likely suspect), and that you're really an elaborate practical
joke, because no one could possibly mean all the asinine things that
you say.
You would not send an athlete into a marathon without adequate
nutrition and hydration. Why, then, do we force women to do the
hardest work of their lives for hours and hours without adequate
nutrition? Hydration they can take care of with an IV, but you
wouldn't see Lance Armstrong hanging an IV bag off of his bike during
the Tour de France. It's MUCH more efficient to drink to thirst, and
eat to hunger, to keep your body refreshed, and keep your energy up.
Further, the excess fluid from the IV can cause an overabundance of
fluid in the body (and glucose, if they hang a glucose drip instead of
saline, has its own set of problems beyond overhydration).
Finally, the reason they stopped letting women eat was "just in case"
they needed a c-section, because Mom could aspirate whatever she
vomited. This was back before it was standard practice to intubate
women who were under a general anesthetic. Now they intubate, so you
are physically incapable of aspirating vomitus. And if you have a c
with an epidural, you're not going to aspirate because you're
CONSCIOUS.
Personally, if I'm going to vomit, I'd rather have something in my
stomach than nothing. And knowing myself, and knowing that I get very
sick if my blood sugar gets too low, I'd MUCH rather eat and drink to
comfort during labor than risk 1) overhydration; 2) hypoglycemia in the
baby post birth from giving too much glucose during birth; 3)
hypoglycemia in myself due to inadequate nutrition; 4) lack of stamina
and energy; 5) crankiness and weakness from hypoglycemia; etc.
Oh, but sorry, it's apparently ALL about the nurses because they have
"life worries." What was I thinking?
Go away, already. You haven't got the faintest idea what you're
talking about, and it's painfully obvious to everyone but you.
Amy
Amy
July 27th 05, 04:54 PM
Amy wrote:
> Sometimes I think that you're really Jamie (or someone, but Jamie is
> the likely suspect),
The Case of the Missing Smiley (or "S is for Smiley," maybe). Jamie,
you know I love you. I just figure that since your mom is a famous
author, you'd have the creativity that would be necessary to come up
with a character like agsf... :)
Amy
Cathy Weeks
July 27th 05, 05:10 PM
wrote:
> Cathy Weeks wrote:
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I found this little piece on another newsgroup. I'm not even a nurse,
> > > but even I know enough about human nature that telling people how to do
> > > their job is not a good idea...:
> >
> > So what would you suggest people do, when the hospital has policies and
> > procedures that are statistically proven to cause complications?
> >
> > Now, I personally did something radical - My husband and I chose to
> > have a homebirth, to avoid the stupid hospital rules that would have
> > likely led to me not having as healthy and peaceful a birth.
> >
> > I too had a birthplan, and my midwives read it seriously, suggested one
> > change to it because they disagreed, and we ageed to the change.
>
> What you did is perfect. You had an issue with the policies and
> procedures of your local hospital, therefore you took the responsible
> path by controlling the situation at hand.
>
> Just out of curiosity, what would you have done if you needed an
> emergency c-section?
Short answer: Gone to the hospital. I'm not so adverse to hospitals
and their stupid rules, that I would put myself or baby in danger to
avoid them.
However, it should be said, that true
emergency-get-the-baby-out-now-or-it-will-die situations are very,
very, very rare - and the baby would die either at home OR in the
hospital. In most hospitals, the decision-to-incision time is over 30
minutes. If my midwives had suspected a c-section might be necessary,
they would have called the hospital and instructed them to get the OB
and anesthesologist on call, and prepare the OR while we were in
transit (about 35 or 40 minutes away). They carried oxygen and other
emergency supplies. Complications rarely crop up suddenly - rather
they give teltale signs long in advance, and my midwives would
recommend a transfer, and because they only had 10% transfer rate for
first time moms, and only a 7% c-section rate overall, I trusted their
judgement implicitly.
My midwives had delivered over 3000 babies, and never lost a mother or
baby.
Cathy Weeks
July 27th 05, 05:17 PM
wrote:
> Well, such is the nature of people today. From the nurse's point of
> view, you care more about yourself than how she feels. After all,
> she/he has bills to pay, a family to worry about and his/her own life
> worries. The last thing he/she needs is another person to say "here is
> my birth plan, please bring me my hamburger and fries" and then deal
> with your mess.
Denying food to laboring women has been shown to *cause* complications.
Labor is hard physical effort that can last for days. If a woman is
denied food, her only source of energy, then she is weakened for the
task at hand. If she's too tired, then it's more likely she'll need an
epidural, which often SLOWS LABOR DOWN, and will then increase her
chances of a c-section, etc. It's a domino effect. Perhaps the nurse
wants to increase the hospital's revinue?
The nurse got a job in a messy profession. I think puking women is par
for the course. She could of course, get a different job.
Either way, people have to be able to make their wishes known, and when
there aren't midwives available for homebirth, or they can't afford the
extra fees (some insurances companies only pay for hospital births)
then their next best bet is to use the hospital. But the hospital may
or may not have stupid, old-fashioned policies.
What is so wrong with trying to change them, especially if it benefits
other mothers and families in the long run?
Cathy Weeks
Circe
July 27th 05, 05:19 PM
"Cathy Weeks" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> wrote:
>> Well, such is the nature of people today. From the nurse's point of
>> view, you care more about yourself than how she feels. After all,
>> she/he has bills to pay, a family to worry about and his/her own life
>> worries. The last thing he/she needs is another person to say "here is
>> my birth plan, please bring me my hamburger and fries" and then deal
>> with your mess.
>
> The nurse got a job in a messy profession. I think puking women is par
> for the course. She could of course, get a different job.
>
And, in fact, studies show that women are not more likely to vomit if they
eat during labor than if they don't. It's just that women who eat during
labor will tend to vomit a larger *amount*. Either way, there's still just
as likely to be puke to clean up!
--
Be well, Barbara
Cathy Weeks
July 27th 05, 05:45 PM
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> > Just out of curiosity, what would you have done if you needed an
> > emergency c-section?
>
> Short answer: Gone to the hospital. I'm not so adverse to hospitals
> and their stupid rules, that I would put myself or baby in danger to
> avoid them.
I forgot to mention, that there are of course risks, whatever venue you
choose. And if something bad happened BECAUSE we were at home (however
rare and improbable), and not in the hospital, then we would have taken
responsibility for our choice.
Cathy Weeks
Cuddlefish
July 27th 05, 06:10 PM
"Cathy Weeks" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What is so wrong with trying to change them, especially if it benefits
> other mothers and families in the long run?
agsf is clinging to some weird 1950s 'ideal'. He is not about to update his
point of view; nor is he likely to become more educated about the world
today any time soon. He is kind of like a quaint relic from the past, like
porcelain bedpans.
However, Cathy, I am very much enjoying your well thought out, intelligent
and reasoned responses in this thread. You are teaching me lots. :-)
--
Jacqueline
#1 Due late Jul/early Aug
Jamie Clark
July 28th 05, 01:35 AM
Boy I'm glad I read this post first! I was sitting there wondering -- Why
the hell did she bring me into this mess, and why is she ****ed at me?
: )
Seriously, I could never think up half of the **** that comes out of this
guys fingers. I am not, nor I ever been AGSF. I shudder at the thought, as
does he, I'm sure.
--
Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Chatty, whose favorite sayings are
"What's going on in here" and "I've gotta get out of here!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- Little Miss Into Everything, whose reach has
extended into the whole coffee table...nothing is safe!
Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
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Password
"Amy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Amy wrote:
>
>
>> Sometimes I think that you're really Jamie (or someone, but Jamie is
>> the likely suspect),
>
> The Case of the Missing Smiley (or "S is for Smiley," maybe). Jamie,
> you know I love you. I just figure that since your mom is a famous
> author, you'd have the creativity that would be necessary to come up
> with a character like agsf... :)
>
> Amy
>
Cathy Weeks
July 28th 05, 01:45 AM
Amy wrote:
> The Case of the Missing Smiley (or "S is for Smiley," maybe). Jamie,
> you know I love you. I just figure that since your mom is a famous
> author,
Who is Jamie's mom?
Cathy Weeks
Jamie Clark
July 28th 05, 01:48 AM
Sue Grafton, hence the "S is for Smiley." Not to confuse the issue and
bring in Jenrose's kid... : )
--
Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Chatty, whose favorite sayings are
"What's going on in here" and "I've gotta get out of here!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- Little Miss Into Everything, whose reach has
extended into the whole coffee table...nothing is safe!
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Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password
"Cathy Weeks" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Amy wrote:
>
>> The Case of the Missing Smiley (or "S is for Smiley," maybe). Jamie,
>> you know I love you. I just figure that since your mom is a famous
>> author,
>
> Who is Jamie's mom?
>
> Cathy Weeks
>
Cuddlefish
July 28th 05, 01:54 AM
"Jamie Clark" > wrote in message
...
> Sue Grafton, hence the "S is for Smiley." Not to confuse the issue and
> bring in Jenrose's kid... : )
Jenrose has a Smiley and a Shiny? :-)
--
Jacqueline
#1 Due late Jul/early Aug
Jamie Clark
July 28th 05, 02:03 AM
Oh doi, it's Shiny, not Smiley. Oops. Well that really clears things up...
: )
--
Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Chatty, whose favorite sayings are
"What's going on in here" and "I've gotta get out of here!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- Little Miss Into Everything, whose reach has
extended into the whole coffee table...nothing is safe!
Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password
"Cuddlefish" > wrote in message
news:j1WFe.59447$s54.23394@pd7tw2no...
> "Jamie Clark" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Sue Grafton, hence the "S is for Smiley." Not to confuse the issue and
>> bring in Jenrose's kid... : )
>
> Jenrose has a Smiley and a Shiny? :-)
>
> --
> Jacqueline
> #1 Due late Jul/early Aug
>
Cathy Weeks
July 28th 05, 03:03 AM
Jamie Clark wrote:
> Sue Grafton, hence the "S is for Smiley." Not to confuse the issue and
> bring in Jenrose's kid... : )
The name was familiar, but I didn't recognize it right off. So I
looked her up on Amazon.com, and saw the different "A is for...." book
titles.
So, has she done the whole alphabet yet? :-)
So, that's pretty cool. My grandfather wrote some books, but Petroleum
Engineering textbooks aren't nearly so interesting!!!
Cathy Weeks
Jamie Clark
July 28th 05, 03:16 AM
"Cathy Weeks" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> Jamie Clark wrote:
>> Sue Grafton, hence the "S is for Smiley." Not to confuse the issue and
>> bring in Jenrose's kid... : )
>
> The name was familiar, but I didn't recognize it right off. So I
> looked her up on Amazon.com, and saw the different "A is for...." book
> titles.
>
> So, has she done the whole alphabet yet? :-)
>
> So, that's pretty cool. My grandfather wrote some books, but Petroleum
> Engineering textbooks aren't nearly so interesting!!!
>
> Cathy Weeks
No, she isn't finished yet. I think she's currently working on S, or maybe
she just finished S in April and it will be out this fall...I forget. S is
for Smiley? I think probably not... The come out every other year, so
she's got a few to go.
Fun facts...
-- C is for Corpse is dedicated to me and my sibs.
-- R is for Ricochet is dedicated to Taylor.
-- I'm in the acknowledgements for O is for Outlaw for a random funny
incident that I overheard in the ladies room one day at lunch and told when
I got back to the table. Mom used it in the book.
My grandfather (her father) was also an author -- C.W. Grafton
http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/lpop/grafton.htm. It's funny, I just stumbled
on this page about him looking for a quick link to include in this message,
and, well, color me impressed!
--
Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Chatty, whose favorite sayings are
"What's going on in here" and "I've gotta get out of here!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- Little Miss Into Everything, whose reach has
extended into the whole coffee table...nothing is safe!
Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password
Cuddlefish wrote:
>
> agsf is clinging to some weird 1950s 'ideal'. He is not about to update his
> point of view;
My thoughts on birth plans have nothing to do with the 1950's. It's
based on human nature and what the nurse might think about you and how
that would hinder your ability to have a natural birth. It's just a
theory, but if you ever run into that nurse that I posted, I feel sorry
for you.
> nor is he likely to become more educated about the world
> today any time soon.
My bank account contradicts your claim.
> He is kind of like a quaint relic from the past, like
> porcelain bedpans.
Yes, **** on me all you want, I am built to last unlike the disposable
plastic people you see today.
> However, Cathy, I am very much enjoying your well thought out, intelligent
> and reasoned responses in this thread. You are teaching me lots. :-)
Good. One of the reasons why I enjoy to debate other people is to learn
their point of view.
> --
> Jacqueline
Regards...
Jamie Clark wrote:
>
> Seriously, I could never think up half of the **** that comes out of this
> guys fingers.
Well, at least you can think 50 percent of the time.
> I am not, nor I ever been AGSF.
Neither have I. ;)
> I shudder at the thought,
Honestly, I don't think you have what it takes.
> as
> does he, I'm sure.
Damn right. It feels good to be a man!
> --
>
> Jamie
Regards...
Amy
July 28th 05, 04:26 AM
Jamie Clark wrote:
> Boy I'm glad I read this post first! I was sitting there wondering -- Why
> the hell did she bring me into this mess, and why is she ****ed at me?
>
> : )
I didn't realize that it sounded wrong until I re-read it. It was
quite witty in my head the first time. :)
> Seriously, I could never think up half of the **** that comes out of this
> guys fingers.
Oh, sure you could! Just take everything sensible and sane and
rational that you've ever thought in your life and give it the ol'
Missy Elliott - Flip It And Reverse It - and that's ASGF! It's fun!
For example, rational and sane people believe that all people are
created equal. After putting that idea through the Missy
Elliottometer, you come out with most of his social theories -
basically they boil down to, "I'm up here, other men are here (slightly
lower), and women and minorities and everyone else is WAAAAAY down
there (beneath his feet, apparently)."
Or take the idea that a woman in labor ought to be made to feel as
comfortable and safe as possible. Give it the ol' flip & reverse, and
you come out with, "You shouldn't make trouble for the nurses when
you're in labor, because they have 'life worries.' I mean, God forbid
that they, I don't know, do their JOB or something..."
> I am not, nor I ever been AGSF. I shudder at the thought, as
> does he, I'm sure.
I figured it was too good to be true... I thought maybe once I exposed
your plot that you'd give up the ruse, but alas, I can see that he
continues to post... I guess I'll need to formulate a new theory; such
is the nature of research. Maybe he's really a brain in a jar, being
stimulated by an evil genius to *think* that the world is a certain
way, even though the way he thinks it is would be completely absurd.
The Descartes Method of Troll Deconstruction, I call it...
:)
Amy
> I wish to eat and drink
> whatever I
> want during labor. Sorry Honey, us nurses don't want to see it later.
If this nurse seriously thinks that her dislike of cleaning up vomit is
more important than her patients' comfort and health, I hope to
goodness that she changes either her attitude or her career.
Sarah
wrote:
> KC wrote:
> > and
> > yet here you are telling us that telling people how to do their job is
> > not a good idea.
>
> It's not. You have to understand, they are only human and being such,
> might react negatively towards you.
So what you're saying is that it's not a good idea to talk to people in
a way that irritates them, because they will then be less likely to
listen to you or take into account anything you say?
Sarah
Jamie Clark
July 29th 05, 01:49 AM
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>
> wrote:
>> KC wrote:
>
>> > and
>> > yet here you are telling us that telling people how to do their job is
>> > not a good idea.
>>
>> It's not. You have to understand, they are only human and being such,
>> might react negatively towards you.
>
> So what you're saying is that it's not a good idea to talk to people in
> a way that irritates them, because they will then be less likely to
> listen to you or take into account anything you say?
>
>
> Sarah
Bwa ha ha ha ha!
--
Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Little Miss Chatty, whose favorite sayings are
"What's going on in here" and "I've gotta get out of here!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- Little Miss Into Everything, whose reach has
extended into the whole coffee table...nothing is safe!
Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password
>
Todd Gastaldo
July 29th 05, 04:16 PM
IRRITATING OBSTETRICIANS...
British general practitioner Dr. Sarah Vaughan, please see the very end of
this post...
Kathy Claytor said to AGSF:
>>> and
>>> yet here you are telling us that telling people how to do their job is
>>> not a good idea.
AGSF replied:
>> It's not. You have to understand, they are only human and being such,
>> might react negatively towards you.
British general practitioner Dr. Sarah Vaughan remarked:
> So what you're saying is that it's not a good idea to talk to people in
> a way that irritates them, because they will then be less likely to
> listen to you or take into account anything you say?
>
GASTALDO COMMENTS:
It irritates medical doctors to have their mass child abuse pointed out to
them.
Here is an excerpt of an exchange medical doctor Sarah and I had on the
subject...
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/
misc.kids.pregnancy/msg/b34505f37ebc555c?dmode=source&hl=en
> ...people
> who read it are just going to dismiss you as a total kook without even
> reading what you have to say.
The medical profession is concealing a massive obstetric felony.
I suppose medical doctors WISH that people would "dismiss me as a total kook
without even reading..."
But that's not how it's playing out.
> And, as for why I don't barge into the local maternity ward, banner in
> hand, protesting the CLOSING OF BIRTH CANALS BY UP TO 30% -
Nice touch - the banner. LOL!
Why not walk in quietly and quietly talk to the OBs and midwives?
Have you written a letter to any primary care trust/PCT saying you think I
have the biomechanics right - it does appear that OBs and midwives are
closing birth canals up to 30% - and that it's really easy for OBs and
midwives to stop this and allow mothers and babies to have the "extra" up to
30%?
> it's not
> because I disagree with your cause, but because nobody particularly
> listens to people who do that.
Sarah - a FELONY is occuring. *You are a medical doctor. *People (police)
listen to medical doctors - juries listen to medical doctors.
WOMEN listen to medical doctors. (BTW, thanks for saying you don't barge
with a banner because you "don't disagree" - but isn't that a little tepid
given that tiny BRAINS are on the line - not to mention [adult] vaginas and
abdomens?)
> The way to go about something like that
> is to get yourself in a situation where people _might_ listen to you,
Ummmm... Sarah - you are a medical doctor - why not write The Lancet. *Just
Tell [Lancet editor] Dick Horton that you THINK I might have the
biomechanics right - that
you THINK I might be right about American OBs demonstrating that massive
amounts of pelvic outlet diameter are denied - then saying that diameters
DON'T CHANGE - then lying some more when Ohlsen pointed that out - then
lying some more (when I pointed out that they lied some more after Ohlsen
pointed out their lie). (Phew)
> then find out how people actually _are_ doing things (did it even
> fleetingly occur to you that maybe the midwives in my area aren't
> actually doing anything of the sort and _do_ try to get women off their
> backs during second stage? *I don't know, and neither do you),
Sarah, OBs and midwives have put it in WRITING that they are closing birth
canals - and KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get stuck...
>>>>END excerpt of Sarah suggesting that it is NOT ok to be "irritating"...
More irritation...
Keeping in mind that newborns are still breathing through their umbilical
cords - medical doctors are routinely STRANGLING newborns - then robbing
massive amounts of blood from them....
I've reported the mass child abuse publicly to Oregon Atty Genl Hardy Myers
as follows...
> ....AMERICAN MEDICINE¹S **MOST** FREQUENT SURGICAL BEHAVIOR IS OBVIOUS
> CHILD ABUSE THE WAY OBSTETRICIANS PRACTICE IT...
>
> Retired obstetrician George Malcolm Morley, MB ChB FACOG is recommending
> that his fellow obstetricians temporarily strangle babies - to help
> obstetricians learn why they should not immediately clamp/cut umbilical
> cords thereby PERMANENTLY strangling babies/robbing them of up to 50% of
> their blood volume.
>
> Dr. Morley indicates that EVERY CESAREAN BABY is being robbed of up to 50%
> of his/her blood volume.
>
> HERE IS DR. MORLEY RECOMMENDING THE **TEMPORARY** BABY STRANGLING ON THE
> WEB...
>
> "[T]he umbilical cord [is] immediately closed between finger and thumb...The
> [fetal heart rate/FHR] will decelerate quickly to about 60 bpm...the color
> will change from purple-pink (normal at birth) to pallid blue
> (vaso-constriction and asphyxia.)...Few midwives or obstetricians will be
> able to observe, without interference, a deep, prolonged FHR deceleration on
> a non-breathing newborn for a period of 60 seconds.* Common sense will soon
> release the finger and thumb."
> http://www.cordclamping.com/acog-cp.htm
>
> Hardy [Oregon Atty Genl Hardy Myers], some OREGON obstetricians may be going
to Dr. Morley's website and
> experimenting with his temporary baby strangling - as they engage in
> PERMANENT baby strangling - robbing babies of up to 50% of their blood
> volume.
>
> Dr. Morley MEANS well * but it is simply (obviously) illegal for him to
> encourage obstetricians to commit ³lesser² child abuse in order to encourage
> them to stop committing greater child abuse - robbing babies of up to 50% of
> babies¹ blood volume.
>
> See Michigan Baby Strangler George Malcolm Morley, MB ChB FACOG
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3739
>
> Again Hardy, I know that you may be unable to investigate MDs because you
> part of the medico-"legal" "just us" system...
>
> But at least offer assistance to pregnant women in your circle of family and
> friends, OK?
>
> END NECESSARY DIGRESSION...
BACK TO BIRTH-CANAL-CLOSING...
There is also the matter of obstetricians closing birth canals up to 30% and
keeping birth canals closed the "extra" up to 30% as they pull with hands,
forceps and vacuums - sometimes pulling so hard they rip spinal nerves out
of tiny spinal cords.
The fact that they are LYING to cover-up is perhaps the most obvious clue
that they know they are committing massive crime.
For the Four OB Lies...
> See ACOG's 2005 edition: How NOT to birth
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3606
>
> See also: RNs: 'Stitches, episiotomy, and postpartum complications'
> (Maternal care
> learning needs)
> http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/3725
There is really no nice way to point out masse child abuse.
Some babies are about to be FATALLY "irritated" today.
I believe 100% of babies would not mind me being "irritating" to stop the
grisly obstetric travesties.
If medical doctor Sarah - or else knows of a NON-irritating way to stop the
mass (sometimes fatal) child abuse by medical doctors...
....I believe 100% of babies would want both irritating AND non-irritating
people to take immediate action.
Medical doctor Sarah is apparently willing to risk irritating people under
certain circumstances (see her reply to AGSF above).
I hope that someday medical doctor Sarah will risk irritating her fellow
medical doctors to protest them closing birth canals up to 30% and
strangling babies and robbing massive amounts of baby blood.
Assuming medical doctor Sarah agrees with me, she could (finally) simply
forward this email to her fellow medical doctors and say at the top, "I
think Dr. Gastaldo is right."
Sincerely,
Todd
Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon
USA
PS Medical doctor Sarah's original "reason" for not speaking up was: "I'm a
general practitioner, not an obstetrician." I later learned that pregnant
women in Britain routinely book with general practitioners.
Women shouldn't have to ask their obstetricians for "extra" room in the
birth canal and "extra" blood for their babies.
Most women don't KNOW to ask.
Which is why I repeatedly point out that,
Medical doctors who learn of medical doctor fraud are ethically bound to
expose it - ESPECIALLY when it is rampant and harms babies.
RELEVANT AMA PRINCIPLES OF MEDICAL ETHICS....
"[AMA physician[s] shall...strive to expose those physicians...who engage in
fraud or deception."
"[AMA p]hysician[s] shall...seek changes in those requirements which are
contrary to the best interests of the patient."
"[AMA p]hysician[s] shall...make relevant information available to patients,
colleagues, and the public..."
http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/ethics/ethics_opinions53101.cfm
Relevant quote from the AMA website:
"[P]hysicians must strive to ensure patient safety and should play a central
role in identifying, reducing, and preventing health care errors. Ã, This
responsibility exists even in the absence of a patient-physician
relationship."
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/11968.html
AMA physicians are ignoring their own stated ethics - babies be damned.
No doubt British physicians state similar ethics - as they too ignore
massive physician fraud...for example...
THE FOUR OB LIES
OB LIE #1. After MASSIVE change in the AP pelvic outlet diameter was
clinically demonstrated in 1911 and radiographically demonstrated in 1957,
the authors of Williams Obstetrics began erroneously claiming that pelvic
diamaters DON'T CHANGE at delivery.
OB LIE #2. After Ohlsen pointed out in 1973 that pelvic diameters DO
change - the authors of Williams Obstetrics began erroneously claiming that
their most frequent delivery position - dorsal - widens the outlet.
OB LIE #3. After I pointed out in 1992 that dorsal CLOSES - and so does
Semisitting [Gastaldo TD. Birth. 1992;19(4):230] - the authors of Williams
Obstetrics - put the correct
biomechanics in their 1993 edition - but kept in their text (in the same
paragraph!) - the dorsal widens bald lie that first called my attention to
their text...
OB LIE #4. OBs are actually KEEPING birth canals closed when babies get
stuck - and claiming they are doing everything to allow the birth canal open
maximally. (ACOG Shoulder Dystocia video - also forceps and vacuum births
are performed with the mother in lithotomy.)
Here it is 2005 and American obstetricians (ACOG) is STILL recommending
keeping birth canals closed when babies get stuck!
One last note...
I noted some of the British OB lies in an Open Letter to the FTC years
ago...
http://home1.gte.net/gastaldo/part2ftc.html
Sarah,
You are a medical doctor - please speak out to your fellow medical doctors.
Be non-irritating if it is possible.
But if not - be irritating.
Remember what you said to AGSF...
> So what you're saying is that it's not a good idea to talk to people in
> a way that irritates them, because they will then be less likely to
> listen to you or take into account anything you say?
>
You took into account what I said, mentioning me and alluding to the Four OB
Lies in your birth story - and I thank you for that.
I hope you will consider writing to journals and saying, "I think Dr.
Gastaldo is right" - if you do indeed think I am right.
Remember: Most women don't subscribe to misc.kids.pregnancy - they don't
have access to my persistent irritation - they don't know to ask their
obstetricians for the "extra" room in the birth canal and the "extra" blood
for their babies.
They don't know to simply give themselves and their babies the "extras" - as
you did for yourself in part as a consequence my persistent irritation.
By educating your fellow medical doctors (I don't think you can do it
without irritating them), mothers and babies you will never meet will
benefit.
You have special cultural authority being a medical doctor.
Please use it.
Sincerely,
Todd
Dr. Gastaldo
Hillsboro, Oregon
USA
This not to British general practitioner Dr. Sarah Vaughan will be archived
for global access in the Google usenet archive.
Search http://groups.google.com for "Irritating obstetricians"
wrote:
> wrote:
> > KC wrote:
>
> > > and
> > > yet here you are telling us that telling people how to do their job is
> > > not a good idea.
> >
> > It's not. You have to understand, they are only human and being such,
> > might react negatively towards you.
>
> So what you're saying is that it's not a good idea to talk to people in
> a way that irritates them, because they will then be less likely to
> listen to you or take into account anything you say?
What I was stating is by you walking into an establishment, with it's
own rules and procedures, and demanding your own, is not a good idea.
Neither is telling someone how to do their job. You are better off to
understand all your options and choose an establishment that caters to
your options. You are also better off discussing your wishes with your
partner and your doctor.
However, your question is also valid. Hopefully you're able to
understand the two different situations. ;)
>
> Sarah
Regards...
wrote:
> > I wish to eat and drink
> > whatever I
> > want during labor. Sorry Honey, us nurses don't want to see it later.
>
> If this nurse seriously thinks that her dislike of cleaning up vomit is
> more important than her patients' comfort and health,
I think her (based on the assumption that the nurse is female) point
was that everyone in the hospital gets ice chips/cubes/popsicle sticks
and that she does not want to deal with any deviations from the norm.
> I hope to
> goodness that she changes either her attitude or her career.
Whether it is right or wrong is not a factor, the fact that it can
exist is. She's out there, like many others, and they are all waiting
for your birth plans so they can just escort your demanding ass to the
operating table to get your c-section. ;)
> Sarah
Regards...
Cathy Weeks
July 29th 05, 08:19 PM
wrote:
> What I was stating is by you walking into an establishment, with it's
> own rules and procedures, and demanding your own, is not a good idea.
> Neither is telling someone how to do their job. You are better off to
> understand all your options and choose an establishment that caters to
> your options. You are also better off discussing your wishes with your
> partner and your doctor.
Ok, what if, chosing a different establishment isn't really an option?
My husband was originally not willing to risk me or any babies we might
have by having a homebirth. But when the midwife and I demonstrated
that it was no more risky to have it at home than at the hospital, and
that if anything came up, we'd just go to the hospital, and that there
were certain scenarios that could happen where they wouldn't even
consider a homebirth (meconium in the water, a birth prior to 37 or
after 42 weeks, breech, etc), he changed his mind.
However, many, many men would not be willing to do a homebirth
regardless, and many women don't feel comfortable with it, either. If
I had been unable to change my husband's mind, I would not have had a
homebirth - after all, it's his baby, too.
So, if homebirth isn't really an option due to attitudes or medical
risks, or money, (some insurance plans won't cover it at all, so the 5K
must come out of pocket), and you MUST go to the hospital, that limits
your options considerably.
In many people's cases, there *isn't* a choice of hospital. When I was
growing up, there was one hospital 5 minutes from my house, and the
nearest one after that was 45 minutes away. Many cases are far more
extreme.
So, you educate yourself and find that the hospital is very, very
intervention happy. 90% of all first-time moms get episiotomies,
despite the fact the recent ACOG recommendation is that it NEVER be
done routinely, that women tend to heal better from tears than from
incisions. What if the hospital has a 40% C-section rate? (national
average is 25%) What if the hospital has a 70% epidural rate? I'm not
making this up - the nearest hospital to my home at the time of my
daughter's birth has these statistics.
So, there are an awful lot of parents who don't have the choices
available to them to pick and choose a hospital. And if you know that
a hospitals policies are much, much, more likely to lead to
complications, then what should a woman do? Put up and shut up, or try
to improve things for themselves and future families?
Now, that all said, it's probably obvious that I think the latter is
appropriate. Perhaps what should be stressed then is that HOW WE GO
ABOUT changing those policies is very, very important. As the old
saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar."
By the way, I absolutely agree that the wants and needs should be
discussed in depth with the husband and care provider. Fortunately,
care providers are easier to change than hospitals! One further
problem to consider, is that most OBs operate in practices, and you
might not get the doctor with whom you've discussed your plan. So
having a plan is a good idea because it helps insure consistency
despite which doctor you get for the birth.
Cathy Weeks
Cuddlefish
July 29th 05, 11:18 PM
> wrote:
>
>> What I was stating is by you walking into an establishment, with it's
>> own rules and procedures, and demanding your own, is not a good idea.
>> Neither is telling someone how to do their job. You are better off to
>> understand all your options and choose an establishment that caters to
>> your options. You are also better off discussing your wishes with your
>> partner and your doctor.
Which, to bring this thread a full circle back to my original post, was
*exactly* what happened. My doctor welcomed my birth plan and the hospital
where I am delivering manages births in much the same way as I would prefer.
--
Jacqueline
#1 Due late Jul/early Aug
Marty
July 30th 05, 04:22 AM
<<That should have been a clue that birth plans are a waste of time and
might hinder your chances of having a natural birth.>>
A "waste", no indeed dear it means that perserverence is its own
reward. None the less after that debacle we never birthed in a
hospital again.
<<I'm glad. Did it come with a side of fries?>>
I find your humor a bit dry. Perhaps it should have come with a glass
of water.
Cathy Weeks wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > What I was stating is by you walking into an establishment, with it's
> > own rules and procedures, and demanding your own, is not a good idea.
> > Neither is telling someone how to do their job. You are better off to
> > understand all your options and choose an establishment that caters to
> > your options. You are also better off discussing your wishes with your
> > partner and your doctor.
>
> Ok, what if, chosing a different establishment isn't really an option?
If you can't find a hospital that conducts it's business in the manner
which is acceptable to your beliefs and needs, then a homebirth is the
way to go.
> So, if homebirth isn't really an option due to attitudes or medical
> risks, or money, (some insurance plans won't cover it at all, so the 5K
> must come out of pocket), and you MUST go to the hospital, that limits
> your options considerably.
Then you have to make the next best decision.
> In many people's cases, there *isn't* a choice of hospital. When I was
> growing up, there was one hospital 5 minutes from my house, and the
> nearest one after that was 45 minutes away. Many cases are far more
> extreme.
Then you take it up the ass or open up your own hospital.
> So, there are an awful lot of parents who don't have the choices
> available to them to pick and choose a hospital. And if you know that
> a hospitals policies are much, much, more likely to lead to
> complications, then what should a woman do? Put up and shut up, or try
> to improve things for themselves and future families?
>
> Now, that all said, it's probably obvious that I think the latter is
> appropriate. Perhaps what should be stressed then is that HOW WE GO
> ABOUT changing those policies is very, very important. As the old
> saying goes, "you catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar."
You can change the way medical doctors and hospitals do business if you
have the means to provide research and make it effective, but no
hospital is willing to listen to you when you're 9 months pregnant and
dressed in your PJs handing the on-call nurse your birth plan that
differs from their procedures.
> By the way, I absolutely agree that the wants and needs should be
> discussed in depth with the husband and care provider. Fortunately,
> care providers are easier to change than hospitals! One further
> problem to consider, is that most OBs operate in practices, and you
> might not get the doctor with whom you've discussed your plan. So
> having a plan is a good idea because it helps insure consistency
> despite which doctor you get for the birth.
That happened to us, the doctor was stuck in traffic. However, my wife
and I were able to discuss the choices that the hospital had to offer
(which we agreed met our standards of health care prior to choosing our
hospital) with the nurses (went through a shift change as well).
If you want to change procedures because (let's say) eating doesn't
cause vomiting, then you address this between pregnancies with the
board of directors for the hospital in question.
> Cathy Weeks
Regards...
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