Book Recommendation [Archive] - ParentingBanter.com

Amy

January 21st 06, 03:32 PM

Mogget wrote:
> In message . com>, Amy
> > writes
> >I'm only 50 pages in, but I have to recommend "What No One Tells the
> >Mom" by Marg Stark. Her other book, "What No One Tells the Bride"
> >basically saved the first year of my marriage, and this one is every
> >bit as good.
>
> I'm intrigued. Please can you summarise was "WNOTTB" is about?

The Bride or The Mom?

Amazon's page for the Bride:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U3FD1318C

The Mom:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5ED6218C

I sat here and thought about it for a good long time before I realized
what it is that these books have given me... I really think that it
boils down to the peace that comes with knowing that all the scary
things I'm feeling (or that I felt) are NORMAL and have happened to
other people who have gone on to be happy. Therefore, I'm not nuts (a
fact that I have to constantly remind myself of) and I do have a shot
at surviving this and being happy.

Our first year of marriage was a big adjustment. It was 2001, so you
all know what was going on in the world, and there was almost as much
turmoil in our extended family (and I was at the epicenter of a lot of
it, through absolutely no fault of my own). It was such a hard time...
Reading WNOTTB basically reassured me that it was a huge life change,
getting married, and that it was normal to have some conflicting and
scary feelings about it - especially in the face of the crises that
were going on both in our lives and in the world. WNOTTM, so far, is
doing the same thing - reassuring me that even good moms sometimes
think about getting in the car and driving away, that even good moms
sometimes wonder if they're cut out for being a mother, that even good
moms have moments of doubt, regret, fear, and longing for the way
things used to be. And it basically is giving me permission to feel
that way, which is relieving a lot of guilt.

I guess I'm still recovering from the PPD. I feel like I have to make
those first few months up to her, somehow, and that even doing my best
every day isn't good enough. It just helps so much to know that I'm
not alone in the way I feel.

Amy

Jamie Clark

January 21st 06, 07:08 PM

Have you read the book Operating Instructions, by Anne Lamott? Hysterically
funny, and poignant, and along those same lines, except a true story. I
loved this book when I first read it, a bazillion years ago, before I had
kids, or was even trying, and bought 10 copies and gave them to every friend
who gave birth. A really great book. If you haven't read it yet, get a
copy and read it next!
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
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"Amy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Mogget wrote:
>> In message . com>, Amy
>> > writes
>> >I'm only 50 pages in, but I have to recommend "What No One Tells the
>> >Mom" by Marg Stark. Her other book, "What No One Tells the Bride"
>> >basically saved the first year of my marriage, and this one is every
>> >bit as good.
>>
>> I'm intrigued. Please can you summarise was "WNOTTB" is about?
>
> The Bride or The Mom?
>
> Amazon's page for the Bride:
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?U3FD1318C
>
> The Mom:
> http://makeashorterlink.com/?B5ED6218C
>
> I sat here and thought about it for a good long time before I realized
> what it is that these books have given me... I really think that it
> boils down to the peace that comes with knowing that all the scary
> things I'm feeling (or that I felt) are NORMAL and have happened to
> other people who have gone on to be happy. Therefore, I'm not nuts (a
> fact that I have to constantly remind myself of) and I do have a shot
> at surviving this and being happy.
>
> Our first year of marriage was a big adjustment. It was 2001, so you
> all know what was going on in the world, and there was almost as much
> turmoil in our extended family (and I was at the epicenter of a lot of
> it, through absolutely no fault of my own). It was such a hard time...
> Reading WNOTTB basically reassured me that it was a huge life change,
> getting married, and that it was normal to have some conflicting and
> scary feelings about it - especially in the face of the crises that
> were going on both in our lives and in the world. WNOTTM, so far, is
> doing the same thing - reassuring me that even good moms sometimes
> think about getting in the car and driving away, that even good moms
> sometimes wonder if they're cut out for being a mother, that even good
> moms have moments of doubt, regret, fear, and longing for the way
> things used to be. And it basically is giving me permission to feel
> that way, which is relieving a lot of guilt.
>
> I guess I'm still recovering from the PPD. I feel like I have to make
> those first few months up to her, somehow, and that even doing my best
> every day isn't good enough. It just helps so much to know that I'm
> not alone in the way I feel.
>
> Amy
>

Sue

January 22nd 06, 12:22 AM

"Chookie" > wrote in message
> I must say I'm a bit disappointed now. I just read the excerpt on Amazon,
>and I haven't thrown *any* phones at anyone/anything, and I've had two
>kids. After I've had a sulk I'll go shopping for gelignite :-)
>
> I'm interested in why motherhood is so shattering for some people and not
>for others.

It can depend on the temperment of the children and how closely they match
the moms. It also depends on the age of the child. If you are a parent of a
baby, that to me isn't very stressful. However, if they children are older
and there are more than one of them, it can be stressful. There are many
days I want to throw the phone at someone.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Amy

January 22nd 06, 12:36 AM

Sue wrote:

> It can depend on the temperment of the children and how closely they match
> the moms. It also depends on the age of the child. If you are a parent of a
> baby, that to me isn't very stressful. However, if they children are older
> and there are more than one of them, it can be stressful. There are many
> days I want to throw the phone at someone.

See, I'm the opposite. This newborn/baby stuff has been really hard
for me, but I'm great with older kids, always have been. My friends
with kids would call me for advice before I had a kid of my own. I
know that the toddler years are going to be a lot easier on me (ok, I
really shouldn't tempt fate... I *expect*, knowing myself and my
history with children, that the toddler years will be a lot easier on
me...). And that 4 - 12 range is when you get to do all the cool stuff
with them - when they still want you around, but they're old enough
that they can enjoy doing things, like going to the museum or a concert
or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
and we'll get through it. It's her dad I worry about - he's going to
need sedatives for the teen years. He still hasn't rebelled and he's
going to be 30 this year. He just won't get it if she rebels.

We're all different. Isn't it amazing?

Amy
(no, you can not mail your older kids to me, unless they're old enough
to babysit, so don't ask. :) )

Chookie

January 22nd 06, 04:31 AM

In article om>,
"Amy" > wrote:

> WNOTTM, so far, is
> doing the same thing - reassuring me that even good moms sometimes
> think about getting in the car and driving away, that even good moms
> sometimes wonder if they're cut out for being a mother, that even good
> moms have moments of doubt, regret, fear, and longing for the way
> things used to be. And it basically is giving me permission to feel
> that way, which is relieving a lot of guilt.

Now this is interesting, and I hope my question doesn't feel like I'm picking
on you, but it wounds like you must have thought:

- motherhood doesn't have bad days
- motherhood doesn't have different stages, and if it does, I will cope well
with ALL of them
- motherhood won't have bits I don't like
- if I don't enjoy/cope with some part of motherhood, that means I must be a
lousy mother
- if I ask for help, I must be a lousy mother

The reason this is interesting to me is that the people I know IRL who have
had PPD seem to all have very perfectionist or all-or-nothing approaches, and
to have been quite unrealistic about motherhood. They tended to say things
like, "I'll never, ever sm*ck my child," or "I'll never, ever raise my voice",
and when things go "wrong" they are slow to ask for help (or to go on meds),
often seeing that as somehow wrong.

It seems to me that in some cases, when the blowfly of unrealistic
expectations hits the windscreen of reality, PPD is what we call the squashed
mess left behind! IOW PPD is a normal reaction -- the abnormal expectations
ahead of it are the real problem.

> I guess I'm still recovering from the PPD. I feel like I have to make
> those first few months up to her, somehow, and that even doing my best
> every day isn't good enough.

In my denomination these are called works of supererogation, "which cannot be
taught without arrogancy and impiety"!

How can you do more than your best? What if <shock, horror!> you don't do
your best one day? How can you make up sick days in motherhood, when you never
clock off? Who says you have to anyway? And, um, *what* do you do to make
up? Change nappies more often than required? Bath the baby twice a day?
Going by my kids, that would be worse than whatever was the first crime you
committed!

As my Grandma used to say: Tomorrow is another day.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Chookie

January 22nd 06, 04:34 AM

In article . com>,
"Amy" > wrote:

> > I'm interested in why motherhood is so shattering for some people and not
> > for others.
>
> She actually addresses that. She hypothesizes that younger moms have
> "less to lose" in terms of career and money, because they aren't as
> established, so they don't feel the loss of a job the way older moms
> do. Younger moms also tend to "deal" better, because they have more
> energy, generally, than older moms.

I was 31 when I had DS1; I wouldn't call that young for a first-time Mum! I
think I might have just hit the right time in terms of hte trade of between
life experience and energy.

> Amy (I haven't thrown anything, yet, either, but I did drop an entire
> high-chair-tray full of toys on the floor yesterday out of sheer
> frustration)

LOL! The problem is having to pick them all up!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Jamie Clark

January 22nd 06, 07:10 AM

"Amy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Sue wrote:
>
>> It can depend on the temperment of the children and how closely they
>> match
>> the moms. It also depends on the age of the child. If you are a parent of
>> a
>> baby, that to me isn't very stressful. However, if they children are
>> older
>> and there are more than one of them, it can be stressful. There are many
>> days I want to throw the phone at someone.
>
> See, I'm the opposite. This newborn/baby stuff has been really hard
> for me, but I'm great with older kids, always have been. My friends
> with kids would call me for advice before I had a kid of my own. I
> know that the toddler years are going to be a lot easier on me (ok, I
> really shouldn't tempt fate... I *expect*, knowing myself and my
> history with children, that the toddler years will be a lot easier on
> me...). And that 4 - 12 range is when you get to do all the cool stuff
> with them - when they still want you around, but they're old enough
> that they can enjoy doing things, like going to the museum or a concert
> or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
> honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
> lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
> and we'll get through it. It's her dad I worry about - he's going to
> need sedatives for the teen years. He still hasn't rebelled and he's
> going to be 30 this year. He just won't get it if she rebels.
>
> We're all different. Isn't it amazing?
>
> Amy
> (no, you can not mail your older kids to me, unless they're old enough
> to babysit, so don't ask. :) )
>

Amy,
"the toddler years will be a lot easier on me..." "I don't even have much
fear of the teen years..."

I hope you print this out and put it somewhere safe, and then read it again
when your kid(s) are older and you are having a really bad day, and you can
laugh at how naive and optimistic you were. : )

Seriously, I adore kids, and have always been great with babies, toddlers
and older kids...then I had my own. The reality of having kids is nothing
like you imagine. It's not all walks in the park, field trips to the
museum, and making crafts at the kitchen table. In between all the
"starshine and daisy petals" is a whole lot of "NO mama, I wanna do it
myself!" and "AHHHHHHHHH WAAAAA, she's got my turtle!" and snotty noses and
colds that don't quit and everyone wanting your attention at the same time,
and on an on an on. And all the while you've got that damn purple dinosaur
in the background singing "I love you, you love me...." and you can't turn
it off because one of your kids has to watch it 37 times a week. It's
enough to make a grown woman cry.

I had a few bad days this past week, and called my mom and was talking to
her about it, and I began to cry, saying how some days I just don't feel
like I'm very good at this whole mothering thing. Which considering the
lengths to which I went to become a mother, is pretty dang upsetting. She
got a lump in her throat and said that she still has regrets and feels guilt
about how she did with us. Basically, every grandparent I've ever talked to
has said that you spend your whole life worrying about your kids, you spend
your whole life feeling like you didn't quite do the whole parenting thing
right, and you spend your whole life hoping you didn't **** them up
completely.

The best we can do is try to do better tomorrow. Wipe the slate clean and
try again. Luckily, children are very forgiving, and pretty adaptable. And
they love us and think that we hung the moon. It's not a bad system.

"the toddler years will be a lot easier on me..." LOL! I'm still giggling
from this one...

Good luck, kid. You're gonna need it. : )

Personally speaking, I think Chookie may be onto something with the whole
unrealistic expectations thing. Seriously, think about it.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

Workingmom

January 22nd 06, 08:34 AM

Amy skrev:
> or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
> honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
> lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
> and we'll get through it.

That's exactly what I'm experiencing now. I have a 13 yo girl and she's
hasn't been nearly as bad as I was. Teenage years is a breeze. I mean:
She communicates! I didn't. I just shut up and didn't tell my parents
anything about my life, my friends, my lovers, my thoughts or anything.

And moved out at 15.

Nothing she can do can shock me - yes drugs, but apart from that?

Tine, Denmark

Emily

January 22nd 06, 08:35 AM

(((Jamie))) I'm sure you're doing a great job!

I found myself today thinking about how we're doing pretty
well handling both DS1 and DS2 right now and then reminding
myself how it's going ot get harder! Babyhood seemed
really difficult with DS1, but it's just gotten harder in
many ways (and now DS2's babyhood seems easy ... but I'm
betting that his toddlerhood won't, or if it does, it'll
only be because we're taking the advanced course in school
aged kids with DS1).

OTOH, I have to think that each parent has stages that
they are better at than others. Personally, I think I'll
gladly trade the mind-numbing repetition of the preschool
years for some of the more thorny headaches of elementary
school and adolesence. But maybe I should save this message
for the first time I've got DS1 telling me he hates me and
sulking in his room!

Oh, and the purple dinosaur doesn't exist in our house.
To the extent that DS1 has stumbled across him, we've
refused to name him and have maintained that the scares us :-)
Then again, DS1 goes to preschool full time, so it's much
easier to do without much television.

--
Emily
DS1 5/02
DS2 9/05

Workingmom

January 22nd 06, 08:38 AM

> They tended to say things
> like, "I'll never, ever sm*ck my child," or "I'll never, ever raise my voice",
> and when things go "wrong" they are slow to ask for help (or to go on meds),
> often seeing that as somehow wrong.

Things tend to change. I believe most of you would say: "I'll never ever
steal in a shop". That's the same way most people here say: "I'll never,
ever sm*ck my child". There's a law against both.

Thirty years ago you could (and did) smack your child, but you can't
anymore.

Interesting to see how a society changes.

Tine, Denmark

Sue

January 22nd 06, 11:51 AM

"Amy" > wrote in message
> See, I'm the opposite. This newborn/baby stuff has been really hard
> for me, but I'm great with older kids, always have been. My friends
> with kids would call me for advice before I had a kid of my own. I
> know that the toddler years are going to be a lot easier on me (ok, I
> really shouldn't tempt fate... I *expect*, knowing myself and my
> history with children, that the toddler years will be a lot easier on
> me...). And that 4 - 12 range is when you get to do all the cool stuff
> with them - when they still want you around, but they're old enough
> that they can enjoy doing things, like going to the museum or a concert
> or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
> honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
> lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
> and we'll get through it. It's her dad I worry about - he's going to
> need sedatives for the teen years. He still hasn't rebelled and he's
> going to be 30 this year. He just won't get it if she rebels.
>
> We're all different. Isn't it amazing?
>
> Amy
> (no, you can not mail your older kids to me, unless they're old enough
> to babysit, so don't ask. :) )

I am that way also. I much rather have my older kids than the babies and
even toddlers. But, that still wasn't too stressful for me. It was, don't
get me wrong, but it wasn't "real" parenting, if you can understand what I
mean. Now that they are pre-teen and teens, the real parenting comes in and
it can be very stressful. I am definitely liking having older kids now that
they can do more things and are more independent. However, my girls are
typical in that they are moody, sarcastic, bicker at each other and so on
and it can get really frustrating. And out of my three, there is only one I
would wish to send you. ;o)
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Ericka Kammerer

January 22nd 06, 01:54 PM

Jamie Clark wrote:
> "Amy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...

> Amy,
> "the toddler years will be a lot easier on me..." "I don't even have much
> fear of the teen years..."
>
> I hope you print this out and put it somewhere safe, and then read it again
> when your kid(s) are older and you are having a really bad day, and you can
> laugh at how naive and optimistic you were. : )

Actually, I don't think that's necessarily true.
Yes, we all get surprises along the way, but I *do* think
that many people have ages and stages that they're better
or worse with than others. I do well with babies and not
so well with 3yos. I'm better again with early elementary,
and then struggle again as they approach pre-teens (so far).
My husband tends to be about the opposite (which is handy ;-)
though we're both struggling with the pre-teen thing. I
know a *lot* of folks post-toddler who say they had a much
easier time with toddlers than infants.
So, while I'm sure that Amy will have some
significant surprises along the way, and at *any* age
we tend to have some bad days where we doubt our abilities
to parent as we hoped we would, she might well find that
toddlers or elementary age kids *are* easier on her than
an infant.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer

January 22nd 06, 02:03 PM

Chookie wrote:

> It seems to me that in some cases, when the blowfly of unrealistic
> expectations hits the windscreen of reality, PPD is what we call the squashed
> mess left behind! IOW PPD is a normal reaction -- the abnormal expectations
> ahead of it are the real problem.

I don't think that's true. I think it may well be
true that PPD is more common in those who tend to be
perfectionists or have unreasonable expectations of themselves,
but I don't think that is the *cause*, and it certainly
happens to women who don't have unreasonable expectations
prior to getting hit with it. I think that explanation
trivializes the reality of PPD, as if it's something
you could just get over with an attitude adjustment.
On the other hand, I do agree that many people
have unreasonable expectations of motherhood/parenthood
and that many parents are harder on themselves than is
warranted. I also think that many people are just flat
out undisciplined, which makes everything harder. I
struggle to be disciplined in pretty much every aspect
of my life (I'm a naturally noncompliant sort ;-) ) and
I think that is one of the big differences between today
and years ago. Lack of discipline makes parenting much,
much harder. Whenever I find an issue I'm really struggling
with, it is almost always the case that it is the result
of my being undisciplined in one area or another.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Amy

January 22nd 06, 06:13 PM

Chookie wrote:
> In article om>,
> "Amy" > wrote:

> Now this is interesting, and I hope my question doesn't feel like I'm picking
> on you, but it wounds like you must have thought:
>
> - motherhood doesn't have bad days
> - motherhood doesn't have different stages, and if it does, I will cope well
> with ALL of them
> - motherhood won't have bits I don't like
> - if I don't enjoy/cope with some part of motherhood, that means I must be a
> lousy mother
> - if I ask for help, I must be a lousy mother
>
> The reason this is interesting to me is that the people I know IRL who have
> had PPD seem to all have very perfectionist or all-or-nothing approaches, and
> to have been quite unrealistic about motherhood. They tended to say things
> like, "I'll never, ever sm*ck my child," or "I'll never, ever raise my voice",
> and when things go "wrong" they are slow to ask for help (or to go on meds),
> often seeing that as somehow wrong.

Oh, you've hit the nail right on the head.

I had EXTREMELY unrealistic expectations about motherhood. I thought
that the baby would wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour
nap, wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour nap, nurse, be up
a little longer in the evening, then go to bed at 8 pm and wake up 3
times, maximum, in the night. Instead, I got a kid who sleeps an
average of 45 minutes to an hour at a stretch, who wants to nurse
CONSTANTLY, and anytime that she's not nursing only indicates that I
have managed to successfully distract her, but her "default" setting is
"NURSE ME NOW!" I got a very high-needs kid who wants to be held all
the time, and who fusses if she's put down for a second, but who,
strangely, doesn't like any carrier other than the sling, which isn't
really conducive to housework, etc.

I suppose that kids like the one I expected exist, but I sure didn't
get one.

I also tend to the perfectionist side. I have always been a
high-achiever, and don't do well when I feel like I'm not good at
something. I can't even tell you how many hobbies I've quit because I
didn't get good at them (or start to feel competent at them) quickly
enough. Strangely, I will also get bored with something if I get good
at it too quickly... I'll get just to the point where I'm starting to
do well, and quit because the challenge is gone. So, as you might
guess, I don't have hobbies (outside of reading and newsgroups) which
is fine right now because I don't have time, anyway.

You read the posts - I resisted PPD as long as I could, until there was
no alternative but to accept that I needed help or I was going to hurt
myself, or her. I thought she'd be better off without me, and if the
only thing I could do to get myself away from her (to protect her) was
to kill myself, well, that made perfect, logical sense at the time.
Oh, it gives me chills to think about the things I thought, then...

> It seems to me that in some cases, when the blowfly of unrealistic
> expectations hits the windscreen of reality, PPD is what we call the squashed
> mess left behind! IOW PPD is a normal reaction -- the abnormal expectations
> ahead of it are the real problem.

I think that's very astute, and very likely true in my case. I don't
know if it's that way for every woman who gets PPD, but I think it may
be true for me. I spent a lot of time doing "armchair parenting" -
criticizing other parents who were doing things wrong, IMNSHO. Now
that I am one, I realize that it's a lot harder than most moms make it
look, and I'm having to eat a big old slice of Humble Pie, and it's
pretty bitter.

> > I guess I'm still recovering from the PPD. I feel like I have to make
> > those first few months up to her, somehow, and that even doing my best
> > every day isn't good enough.
>
> In my denomination these are called works of supererogation, "which cannot be
> taught without arrogancy and impiety"!
>
> How can you do more than your best? What if <shock, horror!> you don't do
> your best one day? How can you make up sick days in motherhood, when you never
> clock off? Who says you have to anyway? And, um, *what* do you do to make
> up? Change nappies more often than required? Bath the baby twice a day?
> Going by my kids, that would be worse than whatever was the first crime you
> committed!
>
> As my Grandma used to say: Tomorrow is another day.

I guess I'll buy her things, when she's older, to make up for the bad
days! LOL. I don't know. I don't know how to do better. I just know
that my best is proving to be not good enough, in this situation, and
it scares me.

It would help if you could meet my mom - she's the only person I know
who can take a sheep and make something useful all by herself. She's
good at everything she touches - she's a good businesswoman; she's good
at crafts; she's a gourmet chef (literally) and owns a ballroom where
she routinely entertains 300 people, and makes it look effortless;
she's good at things she's never done before; she's loved by almost
everyone she knows; she's Mary Poppins and Martha Stewart's love child.
It's a LOT to try to live up to. She and I have had this
conversation, and she actually feels terrible that I feel like I have
to live up to her (which just makes it worse!).

I guess I can look back at my life and see that all the things that
remind me of Mom - the making cookies, the art projects we did, the
creative things she did to keep us entertained even when we didn't have
any money - I look at those things and think, "My kids aren't going to
have those memories, because I suck at all of the above. How sad for
them..." and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
"Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
example), I've already failed.

And 5 month olds aren't interested in canned tomatoes anyway, so that
still leaves me with no idea what to do with her right now. *sigh*

So, I feel like I'm muddling through every day, just *surviving* when
what I really dreamed of, what I really wished for, for her, was
*thriving*. Maybe I should just Fed Ex her to my mom, and she can do
everything perfectly, and mail her back to me when she's finished.
Hahaa...

And before you say it, I know that it's unrealistic to expect that I'd
be an expert parent with only 5 months experience. I know that... But
I at least expected to be "above average," and if I'm really honest
with myself, I don't feel like I'm hitting that mark, either.

I can't believe I'm about to post this for all posterity on the
internet, but maybe reading my crazy will help someone else avoid their
own crazy...

Amy

Ericka Kammerer

January 22nd 06, 08:01 PM

Amy wrote:

> I guess I can look back at my life and see that all the things that
> remind me of Mom - the making cookies, the art projects we did, the
> creative things she did to keep us entertained even when we didn't have
> any money - I look at those things and think, "My kids aren't going to
> have those memories, because I suck at all of the above. How sad for
> them..." and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
> moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
> "Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
> meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
> and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
> that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
> in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
> for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
> example), I've already failed.

But you have to understand that those things were
special for you *because* your mother did them with you.
You might do something different with your daughter, and
then *those* things will be special to her and will be
the things that she remembers. It wasn't the fact that
your mom baked and did art projects with you that made
her special to you. It's the fact that your mom did
those things that made cookies and art projects special
to you. What if you had a kid who hated baking and art
projects? Would you be doomed to failure as a mother
because the kid refused to do them?
Parenting is an interaction between a parent and
a child. It's about doing things together that you both
enjoy, not about foisting any particular set of activities
on either party. You're going to find what *your* child
enjoys and share that with him or her, and that's what your
child is going to love and remember. Who knows? Maybe it
will be your presence on the sidelines at soccer games that
will be a treasured memory rather than baking and art.

> And 5 month olds aren't interested in canned tomatoes anyway, so that
> still leaves me with no idea what to do with her right now. *sigh*
>
> So, I feel like I'm muddling through every day, just *surviving* when
> what I really dreamed of, what I really wished for, for her, was
> *thriving*.

Well, maybe you're not thriving right now, but your
daughter probably is ;-) That's the dirty little secret of
parenting--sometimes we just barely survive a stage our kids
go through. But hey, that's okay.

Also, keep in mind that you remember the good things
about your childhood, but there were certainly a bunch of
average days and some unhappy days as well. Your mom wasn't
perfect every day. Time just blurs some of those days when
they're not a regular feature.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Jamie Clark

January 22nd 06, 11:31 PM

"Emily" > wrote in message
...
> (((Jamie))) I'm sure you're doing a great job!
>
> I found myself today thinking about how we're doing pretty
> well handling both DS1 and DS2 right now and then reminding
> myself how it's going ot get harder! Babyhood seemed
> really difficult with DS1, but it's just gotten harder in
> many ways (and now DS2's babyhood seems easy ... but I'm
> betting that his toddlerhood won't, or if it does, it'll
> only be because we're taking the advanced course in school
> aged kids with DS1).
>
> OTOH, I have to think that each parent has stages that
> they are better at than others. Personally, I think I'll
> gladly trade the mind-numbing repetition of the preschool
> years for some of the more thorny headaches of elementary
> school and adolesence. But maybe I should save this message
> for the first time I've got DS1 telling me he hates me and
> sulking in his room!
>
> Oh, and the purple dinosaur doesn't exist in our house.
> To the extent that DS1 has stumbled across him, we've
> refused to name him and have maintained that the scares us :-)
> Then again, DS1 goes to preschool full time, so it's much
> easier to do without much television.

Actually, that was creative license. We don't watch much Barney here at
all. I'm not a fan of it, and luckily, there is always something better on
another channel, so it's easy to avoid. But, it's always something.

Both Taylor and Addie have been sick, so Taylor hasn't been going to
preschool (T-TH 9-12:15), so that's had her home, and Addie in her hair, and
although Addie still is napping (twice a day, thank god!), Taylor isn't, and
dh has been working longer hours this week and not coming home until one or
both of them were already in bed, so Mommy hasn't had ANY breaks at all!

But thanks for the sympathy. Dh had to work on Saturday, but he got to
leave later in the morning than the past week, so I got a little sleep in
time, and then he came home by 3pm, so he got to see the kids during the
day. Then he had today off all together, so I'm feeling much better about
everything!
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

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Jamie Clark

January 22nd 06, 11:35 PM

"Workingmom" > wrote in message
. ..
>> They tended to say things like, "I'll never, ever sm*ck my child," or
>> "I'll never, ever raise my voice", and when things go "wrong" they are
>> slow to ask for help (or to go on meds), often seeing that as somehow
>> wrong.
>
> Things tend to change. I believe most of you would say: "I'll never ever
> steal in a shop". That's the same way most people here say: "I'll never,
> ever sm*ck my child". There's a law against both.
>
> Thirty years ago you could (and did) smack your child, but you can't
> anymore.
>
> Interesting to see how a society changes.
>
> Tine, Denmark

You can still swat your child's bottom or smack their hand. These are very
different than stealing. I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

I think her point is that many first time mom's have an idealized vision of
what parenting will be like -- just like they may have idealized what
marriage will be like. They can imagine that they will have all of the
patience in the world, and be able to calmly explain and teach everything to
their child, all without raising their voices. Then reality hits, and
sometimes we lose our patience and are distracted and don't take the time to
explain things to our kids, and just snap at them and say, "Because I said
so!" **** happens. Some days you just do the best you can, and it looks
nothing like the idealized version that you had imagined. And some days are
much better, and everything is right on, and smooth as silk, and it does
match the idealized version that you had imagined, and it makes you want to
cry. And sometimes it's back and forth, hour by hour, minute by minute.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

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Jamie Clark

January 22nd 06, 11:40 PM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> Jamie Clark wrote:
>> "Amy" > wrote in message
>> oups.com...
>
>> Amy,
>> "the toddler years will be a lot easier on me..." "I don't even have
>> much fear of the teen years..."
>>
>> I hope you print this out and put it somewhere safe, and then read it
>> again when your kid(s) are older and you are having a really bad day, and
>> you can laugh at how naive and optimistic you were. : )
>
> Actually, I don't think that's necessarily true.
> Yes, we all get surprises along the way, but I *do* think
> that many people have ages and stages that they're better
> or worse with than others. I do well with babies and not
> so well with 3yos. I'm better again with early elementary,
> and then struggle again as they approach pre-teens (so far).
> My husband tends to be about the opposite (which is handy ;-)
> though we're both struggling with the pre-teen thing. I
> know a *lot* of folks post-toddler who say they had a much
> easier time with toddlers than infants.
> So, while I'm sure that Amy will have some
> significant surprises along the way, and at *any* age
> we tend to have some bad days where we doubt our abilities
> to parent as we hoped we would, she might well find that
> toddlers or elementary age kids *are* easier on her than
> an infant.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka

I agree with all of that. My point is that Amy is currently the mother of a
12-16 week old baby, and is predicting that she'll have an easier time with
a toddler or teenage than most. I'm just advocating that she wait until she
gets there, and see how she does. I just think it's a wee bit early and
foolhardy to assume that the toddler years are going to be a snap for her.
A little cocky, perhaps. They don't call them the "terrible twos" for
nothing, do they? And for some kids, they start at 18 months, or don't end
until 3.5. Granted, some toddlers are easy, but even the easy kids can be
hard sometimes.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

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Irrational Number

January 23rd 06, 08:08 AM

Amy wrote:
>
> I had EXTREMELY unrealistic expectations about motherhood.

I did, too, before I got pregnant. Then, the
pregnancy from hell occurred, and all my
expectations shattered. Now I spend my time
trying to convince myself that I did *NOT*
cause Pillbug's developmental delay while my
mother keeps calling me and telling me to not
give purees to 7-month-old Rocky because purees
were the reason Pillbug did not learn to chew
and that's why he's not talking today at 2.5
years old.

(Never mind that that makes no sense to me,
or that Pillbug had a very sensitive gag reflex
and rice made him throw up...)

It gets easier when you have the second. With
the first, you still struggle and try to get
things back to normal. With the second, you
give up all hope of ever getting it under control
again.

-- Anita --

Nikki

January 23rd 06, 04:27 PM

Jamie Clark wrote:

> I had a few bad days this past week, and called my mom and was
> talking to her about it, and I began to cry, saying how some days I
> just don't feel like I'm very good at this whole mothering thing. Which
> considering the lengths to which I went to become a mother, is
> pretty dang upsetting.

This is the part that I struggle with. I get frustrated and/or loose
patience with the kids sometimes just because of what they are doing but the
*worst* times happen when I am mostly frustrated with myself for not being a
good enough mother to figure out what to do. I want nothing more then to be
a good mother, and when things don't go well, when I've done something I
know is not the right thing, when I don't know what to do.....it just feels
so terrible because mothering is the most important thing for me. I want to
feel good at it and it is very upsetting and frustrating when I don't and
even worse when I don't cope with those feelings well, which leads to even
more stupid mother moves ;-)

--
Nikki
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Thing One and Thing Two :-) EDD 4/06

[email protected]

January 23rd 06, 06:01 PM

Jamie Clark wrote:

> I agree with all of that. My point is that Amy is currently the mother of a
> 12-16 week old baby, and is predicting that she'll have an easier time with
> a toddler or teenage than most. I'm just advocating that she wait until she
> gets there, and see how she does. I just think it's a wee bit early and
> foolhardy to assume that the toddler years are going to be a snap for her.
> A little cocky, perhaps. They don't call them the "terrible twos" for
> nothing, do they? And for some kids, they start at 18 months, or don't end
> until 3.5. Granted, some toddlers are easy, but even the easy kids can be
> hard sometimes.

Personally, while I wouldn't say the toddler period has been a breeze
(my son is 3.5 now, does that mean the toddler period is done?) it beat
being the mother of my particular 12-week-old baby beat hands down.
Not even close. I found my son's habits as a tiny infant incredibly
tough to deal with (he was a very erratic sleeper and hated to ride in
the car) and while the toddler years had their tough times too, at
least they had some compensations that tiny-infanthood just didn't have
(for me, for me, I know others see it other ways). His infancy was
pretty brutal on me, while his toddlerhood was far from being a snap
but was a lot of fun and pretty rewarding. So from my perspective her
supposition that she'll enjoy the toddler years more sounds plausible,
although obviously not a guaranteed truth.

Beth

Jamie Clark

January 23rd 06, 09:02 PM

"Irrational Number" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Amy wrote:
>>
>> I had EXTREMELY unrealistic expectations about motherhood.
>
> I did, too, before I got pregnant. Then, the
> pregnancy from hell occurred, and all my
> expectations shattered. Now I spend my time
> trying to convince myself that I did *NOT*
> cause Pillbug's developmental delay while my
> mother keeps calling me and telling me to not
> give purees to 7-month-old Rocky because purees
> were the reason Pillbug did not learn to chew
> and that's why he's not talking today at 2.5
> years old.
>
> (Never mind that that makes no sense to me,
> or that Pillbug had a very sensitive gag reflex
> and rice made him throw up...)
>

Taylor also had an extremely sensitive gag reflex, which seemed to calm down
around 2.5, and now that's she's 3, life is much better and there is a lot
less puke to deal with ....hmmm, coincidence?

Addie, on the other hand, has a totally normal gag reflex, and can handle
much more textures and tastes of foods than Taylor could at the same age.
Miracle of miracle, it's nice to see what it "should" have been like at this
age!

Ignore your mom's "helpful" advice!
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

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Jamie Clark

January 23rd 06, 09:03 PM

Hugs Nikki. : )

--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

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Password

"Nikki" > wrote in message
...
> Jamie Clark wrote:
>
>> I had a few bad days this past week, and called my mom and was
>> talking to her about it, and I began to cry, saying how some days I
>> just don't feel like I'm very good at this whole mothering thing. Which
>> considering the lengths to which I went to become a mother, is
>> pretty dang upsetting.
>
> This is the part that I struggle with. I get frustrated and/or loose
> patience with the kids sometimes just because of what they are doing but
> the *worst* times happen when I am mostly frustrated with myself for not
> being a good enough mother to figure out what to do. I want nothing more
> then to be a good mother, and when things don't go well, when I've done
> something I know is not the right thing, when I don't know what to
> do.....it just feels so terrible because mothering is the most important
> thing for me. I want to feel good at it and it is very upsetting and
> frustrating when I don't and even worse when I don't cope with those
> feelings well, which leads to even more stupid mother moves ;-)
>
>
> --
> Nikki
> Hunter 4/99
> Luke 4/01
> Thing One and Thing Two :-) EDD 4/06
>

cjra96

January 23rd 06, 09:20 PM

Workingmom wrote:
> Amy skrev:
> > or a play. I don't even have much fear of the teen years, to be
> > honest, because I did everything shocking when I was a teenager, and I
> > lived, so chances are she won't find anything to shock me (touch wood)
> > and we'll get through it.
>
> That's exactly what I'm experiencing now. I have a 13 yo girl and she's
> hasn't been nearly as bad as I was. Teenage years is a breeze. I mean:
> She communicates! I didn't. I just shut up and didn't tell my parents
> anything about my life, my friends, my lovers, my thoughts or anything.
>
> And moved out at 15.
>
> Nothing she can do can shock me - yes drugs, but apart from that?

Oh man, I'm terrified of having teenage daughters. While nothing they
do will shock me, it's because I *know* what goes on and I soooo don't
want to deal with it. I don't know how my parents ever did.

[email protected]

January 23rd 06, 09:39 PM

In misc.kids.breastfeeding cjra96 > wrote:

: Oh man, I'm terrified of having teenage daughters. While nothing they
: do will shock me, it's because I *know* what goes on and I soooo don't
: want to deal with it. I don't know how my parents ever did.

I can only sympathise with this. While my oldest was a sweet and
wonderful person, she was completely uncontrollable, didn't know
what she wanted to do with herself, was a C (and sometimes D) student
throughout high school.

She got into university in the performing arts, and after she flunked
out her senior year and took a bad job 3000 miles from home did she
come to her senses.

The happy ending is that she moved back home, worked her way through
Jr college by waitressing, got a accepted to Mills college, graduated
Summa Cum Laude in Business, and is now working on her MBA.

Still, the years from 14 to 24 were hell!

Larry

Chookie

January 24th 06, 05:00 AM

In article >,
"Nikki" > wrote:

> *worst* times happen when I am mostly frustrated with myself for not being a
> good enough mother to figure out what to do. I want nothing more then to be
> a good mother, and when things don't go well, when I've done something I
> know is not the right thing, when I don't know what to do.....it just feels
> so terrible because mothering is the most important thing for me.

Ah -- one advantage to being a librarian. I know that somebody has already
thought of a solution... I just have to find it! One reason I'm here on the
mk hierarchy.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Chookie

January 24th 06, 05:24 AM

In article >,
"Jamie Clark" > wrote:

> > Things tend to change. I believe most of you would say: "I'll never ever
> > steal in a shop". That's the same way most people here say: "I'll never,
> > ever sm*ck my child". There's a law against both.
> >
> > Thirty years ago you could (and did) smack your child, but you can't
> > anymore.
> >
> > Interesting to see how a society changes.
> >
> > Tine, Denmark
>
> You can still swat your child's bottom or smack their hand.

Um, not in Denmark!

But I actually did mean the single swat, which is what a smack is here, and
what children generally get if punished that way. Multiple smacks are not
common, AFAICT. But I have friends who, when they were children, were
generally smacked for wrongdoing (I am one of this group myself). IME people
who swear "never, ever" to smack will still, like most of us, turn into their
parents when stressed -- and smack their child. Then have a crisis about it.
I don't think that's terribly useful. For myself, I *prefer* not to smack and
find that it does not work particularly well as a punishment. I still do it
from time to time, but I don't beat myself up (geddit?) about it.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Chookie

January 24th 06, 05:52 AM

In article >,
Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> > IOW PPD is a normal reaction -- the abnormal
> > expectations ahead of it are the real problem.
>
> I don't think that's true. I think it may well be
> true that PPD is more common in those who tend to be
> perfectionists or have unreasonable expectations of themselves,
> but I don't think that is the *cause*, and it certainly
> happens to women who don't have unreasonable expectations
> prior to getting hit with it. I think that explanation
> trivializes the reality of PPD, as if it's something
> you could just get over with an attitude adjustment.

Well, that's if you think an attitude adjustment is something you can do with
a spanner in a couple of minutes! I don't! So I don't believe I'm
trivialising it -- PPD is known to have its roots in many things, but this
root seems quite a prominent one to me. I'm only guilty of overstating my
case :-)

It's important to say that *every* parent has unrealistic expectations about
parenthood, and for each of their children. To return to my previous
metaphor, some of us have small bugs smashed on the windscreen, and other
people have huge splat marks there. So that's one part of the problem. The
other is what we do with the marks. Some of us just get out the soapy water
and the sponge and clean up. Others -- perhaps particularly those with lots
of bug guts on the windscreen -- might have less practical ways of dealing
with the mess. For example, trying to resurrect the blowfly: "But it just
HAS to be like that! I will not accept that it's dead!" Or staring the mess
and wringing their hands.

> On the other hand, I do agree that many people
> have unreasonable expectations of motherhood/parenthood
> and that many parents are harder on themselves than is
> warranted.

Paging Amy... :-)

> I also think that many people are just flat
> out undisciplined, which makes everything harder.

Ooooh, what kinds of things are you thinking of? (I'm not going to infer that
you mean all PPD people are slobs.)

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Chookie

January 24th 06, 09:59 AM

In article . com>,
"Amy" > wrote:

> I had EXTREMELY unrealistic expectations about motherhood. I thought
> that the baby would wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour
> nap, wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour nap, nurse, be up
> a little longer in the evening, then go to bed at 8 pm and wake up 3
> times, maximum, in the night.

Oh dear, were you reading Babywise? :-0

<snip>

> > How can you do more than your best?
>
> I guess I'll buy her things, when she's older, to make up for the bad
> days! LOL. I don't know. I don't know how to do better. I just know
> that my best is proving to be not good enough, in this situation, and
> it scares me.

This is where I don't quite follow you. What exactly are you doing that isn't
good enough? If you woke up and found that pressing your belly button was
going to put you into overdrive and suddenly you *were* doing your best, what
would be different?

> It would help if you could meet my mom - she's the only person I know
> who can take a sheep and make something useful all by herself.
<snip paean>
> It's a LOT to try to live up to. She and I have had this
> conversation, and she actually feels terrible that I feel like I have
> to live up to her (which just makes it worse!).
>
> I guess I can look back at my life and see that all the things that
> remind me of Mom - the making cookies, the art projects we did, the
> creative things she did to keep us entertained even when we didn't have
> any money - I look at those things and think, "My kids aren't going to
> have those memories, because I suck at all of the above. How sad for
> them..."

Ah -- this is your high-achiever bit coming in. The *process* is more
important than the product. I'd be very surprised if you are incapable of
making cookies. You may not make cookies fit for photography in Gourmet
Traveller, but as your kids will be more concerned with eating them than
photography, it's not that big a problem, is it? Just don't put in a cup of
salt instead of a cup of sugar! Ditto with the art -- and any art teacher
will tell you that art, particularly with young children, is very much about
the process -- familiarisation with different media, development of skills.
Focus on the end product is actually a *bad* thing, because you can scare the
children from attempting art projects. I think you know something about this
in your own attitude to hobbies.

> and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
> moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
> "Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
> meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
> and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
> that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
> in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
> for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
> example), I've already failed.

Actually, I'd say your *mother* failed if she spent all those years using all
her skills to such a high level and never taught them to you, nor gave you the
confidence to attempt them on your own, nor passed on her enjoyment. (Did you
notice that your description of your mother lists her skills, rather than her
beliefs and sayings, or the way she makes you feel?)

> And 5 month olds aren't interested in canned tomatoes anyway, so that
> still leaves me with no idea what to do with her right now. *sigh*

Feed, change nappies, bath, read books, sing, take her places with you. How
would you feel if someone insisted on your having constant Improving
Activities when you just wanted to hang out and, like, chill? :-)

> So, I feel like I'm muddling through every day, just *surviving* when
> what I really dreamed of, what I really wished for, for her, was
> *thriving*. Maybe I should just Fed Ex her to my mom, and she can do
> everything perfectly, and mail her back to me when she's finished.

I'd love you to read one of Flylady's essays about perfection!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Workingmom

January 24th 06, 05:06 PM

Chookie skrev:
>
> Um, not in Denmark!

Exactly - not any more. Not a single swat, even.

> But I actually did mean the single swat, which is what a smack is here, and
> what children generally get if punished that way. Multiple smacks are not
> common, AFAICT. But I have friends who, when they were children, were
> generally smacked for wrongdoing (I am one of this group myself). IME people
> who swear "never, ever" to smack will still, like most of us, turn into their
> parents when stressed -- and smack their child. Then have a crisis about it.
> I don't think that's terribly useful. For myself, I *prefer* not to smack and
> find that it does not work particularly well as a punishment. I still do it
> from time to time, but I don't beat myself up (geddit?) about it.
>

The feeling here about swatting kids are going towards the feeling about
hitting anyone else. No-one would ever hit the grocerystore man, even if
he was a PITA. And if you hit your DH he probably wouldn't last long.

We're in the process of learning that hitting/swatting your kid is as
ridiculous as hitting/swatting the busdriver or your mother or the
teacher at school.

It'll take a generation or two, but our kids will probably be less
likely to use violence against their kids.

Tine, Denmark

[email protected]

January 24th 06, 05:29 PM

Workingmom wrote:

> The feeling here about swatting kids are going towards the feeling about
> hitting anyone else. No-one would ever hit the grocerystore man, even if
> he was a PITA. And if you hit your DH he probably wouldn't last long.
>
> We're in the process of learning that hitting/swatting your kid is as
> ridiculous as hitting/swatting the busdriver or your mother or the
> teacher at school.

I'm personally against hitting children, and I have never hit my child,
although there have been times I have been mightily tempted. But I
will say, that one of the reasons I'm never evem *tempted* to hit the
busdriver, or the teacher, or my mother, is they never hit *me*. Or
take my hair in both hands and yank, or repeatedly poke me when I have
both hands full and can't get them to stop, or grab things out of my
hands, or take wild swings at fragile objects in stores, or commit any
of the other violations of gentle and safe behavior that a small child
can commit routinely.

By the same token, many of the measures I substitute for smacking my
child would also be inappropriate if applied to the bus driver or my
mother - I never abruptly pick my mother up, carry her to a safe place,
and tell her that if she can't behave properly she'll have to spend
some quiet time there. Although I find that now I have proposed it,
the mental image is pretty appealing. :-) Anyway, I guess my point is
that interactions between a small child and a caretaker are so unlike
interactions between two adults that it seems like a stretch to forbid
just this one kind of punishment on that basis.

Beth

Michelle J. Haines

January 24th 06, 05:47 PM

wrote:
> Anyway, I guess my point is
> that interactions between a small child and a caretaker are so unlike
> interactions between two adults that it seems like a stretch to forbid
> just this one kind of punishment on that basis.

What she said. ;)

Aversive training, "Don't do that or something you don't like will
happen to you." works better in individuals who's reasoning skills are
less capable than an adults. IOW, dogs, cats, children, etc. ;) The
aversion doesn't -always- have to be physical. It can be time-outs,
removal of an object, removal of child from the situation, etc. But
sometimes, the most time efficient and potent message is a single swat
to the behind. There's a punishment I swore up-and-down I would never
use on my children...the old washing-the-mouth-out-with-soap
punishment...but we've also discovered after my husband did it once,
that it's the single most effective way to get our hyperactive,
massively-fit-throwing son to quit shrieking in an eardrum-rupturing
manner at EVERY SINGLE THING you even TRY to say to him. And after you
do it, he's ready to calm down and listen to reason. We're starting to
get to the point that even going to the bathroom and getting the soap
toothbrush will calm him right now, so hopefully we can phase it out
entirely soon. *crosses fingers* I'll note this calms him down in ways
that every other method we've tried, time-outs, sending to his room, any
method of swatting (we don't swat him much, because largely it's a
backfire situation), does not succeed in. And if you can stand to
listen to blood-curling shrieks for an hour at a time, my hat is off to
you, because you're a better woman than I am. That sort of noise for
that length of time is much more likely to put me in a situation where I
-am- likely to administer an old-fashioned spanking!

This may be unthinkable in Denmark. Really, I'm not concerned about
what is or is not thinkable in Denmark, because I don't have to live
there. It's OK to acknowledge that cultures are different without one
necessarily being better or worse. A friend of mine who's an SAR medic
in Norway and I had a mutual shock when I discussed a DNR situation with
him...he flat out told me that's illegal in Norway and downright stupid,
and I picked my jaw up off the floor that he wouldn't respect someone's
wish to not be treated if they were terminal. We then went on to have
an interesting discussion from both our points of view, with neither of
us changing our minds. Coming back to Denmark, I recently had a bit of
a shock when a friend off-hand mentioned you can't get more than 16
years in prison for -anything-.

Michelle
Flutist

Workingmom

January 24th 06, 06:53 PM

Michelle J. Haines skrev:

> This may be unthinkable in Denmark. Really, I'm not concerned about
> what is or is not thinkable in Denmark, because I don't have to live
> there. It's OK to acknowledge that cultures are different without one
> necessarily being better or worse. A friend of mine who's an SAR medic
> in Norway and I had a mutual shock when I discussed a DNR situation with
> him...he flat out told me that's illegal in Norway and downright stupid,
> and I picked my jaw up off the floor that he wouldn't respect someone's
> wish to not be treated if they were terminal.

I don't know what DNR is. Would you please enlighten me?

> We then went on to have
> an interesting discussion from both our points of view, with neither of
> us changing our minds. Coming back to Denmark, I recently had a bit of
> a shock when a friend off-hand mentioned you can't get more than 16
> years in prison for -anything-.

It's not quite true, though. You can get lifetime, but in nearly all
cases it's equal to 16 years. In one occation, a guy sat for 33 years
for killing 4 police officers in cold blood. Everyone believes that the
reason he wasn't let loose earlier was the fact that he had killed
police officers and not just some house wife or kid.

He was let loose in 1998, 71 years old.

He's probably not a danger to anyone anymore and it's much to expensive
to keep him in prison.

Tine, Denmark

Rebecca Jo

January 24th 06, 07:15 PM

"Workingmom" > wrote

> I don't know what DNR is. Would you please enlighten me?

Do Not Resuscitate.

rj

[email protected]

January 24th 06, 07:16 PM

In misc.kids.breastfeeding Workingmom > wrote:

: I don't know what DNR is. Would you please enlighten me?

Do Not Recucitate. You can sign an order and have a medic
alter bracelet that says effectively, "If I have a heart
attack or stop breathing, do not try to revie me." Medics
in the US must obey such restrictions.

Jamie Clark

January 24th 06, 07:23 PM

"Chookie" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> "Amy" > wrote:
>
>> I had EXTREMELY unrealistic expectations about motherhood. I thought
>> that the baby would wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour
>> nap, wake up, nurse, play for an hour, take a 3 hour nap, nurse, be up
>> a little longer in the evening, then go to bed at 8 pm and wake up 3
>> times, maximum, in the night.
>
> Oh dear, were you reading Babywise? :-0
>
> <snip>
>
>> > How can you do more than your best?
>>
>> I guess I'll buy her things, when she's older, to make up for the bad
>> days! LOL. I don't know. I don't know how to do better. I just know
>> that my best is proving to be not good enough, in this situation, and
>> it scares me.
>
> This is where I don't quite follow you. What exactly are you doing that
> isn't
> good enough? If you woke up and found that pressing your belly button was
> going to put you into overdrive and suddenly you *were* doing your best,
> what
> would be different?
>
>> It would help if you could meet my mom - she's the only person I know
>> who can take a sheep and make something useful all by herself.
> <snip paean>
>> It's a LOT to try to live up to. She and I have had this
>> conversation, and she actually feels terrible that I feel like I have
>> to live up to her (which just makes it worse!).
>>
>> I guess I can look back at my life and see that all the things that
>> remind me of Mom - the making cookies, the art projects we did, the
>> creative things she did to keep us entertained even when we didn't have
>> any money - I look at those things and think, "My kids aren't going to
>> have those memories, because I suck at all of the above. How sad for
>> them..."
>
> Ah -- this is your high-achiever bit coming in. The *process* is more
> important than the product. I'd be very surprised if you are incapable of
> making cookies. You may not make cookies fit for photography in Gourmet
> Traveller, but as your kids will be more concerned with eating them than
> photography, it's not that big a problem, is it? Just don't put in a cup
> of
> salt instead of a cup of sugar! Ditto with the art -- and any art teacher
> will tell you that art, particularly with young children, is very much
> about
> the process -- familiarisation with different media, development of
> skills.
> Focus on the end product is actually a *bad* thing, because you can scare
> the
> children from attempting art projects. I think you know something about
> this
> in your own attitude to hobbies.
>
>> and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
>> moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
>> "Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
>> meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
>> and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
>> that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
>> in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
>> for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
>> example), I've already failed.
>
> Actually, I'd say your *mother* failed if she spent all those years using
> all
> her skills to such a high level and never taught them to you, nor gave you
> the
> confidence to attempt them on your own, nor passed on her enjoyment. (Did
> you
> notice that your description of your mother lists her skills, rather than
> her
> beliefs and sayings, or the way she makes you feel?)
>
>> And 5 month olds aren't interested in canned tomatoes anyway, so that
>> still leaves me with no idea what to do with her right now. *sigh*
>
> Feed, change nappies, bath, read books, sing, take her places with you.
> How
> would you feel if someone insisted on your having constant Improving
> Activities when you just wanted to hang out and, like, chill? :-)
>
>> So, I feel like I'm muddling through every day, just *surviving* when
>> what I really dreamed of, what I really wished for, for her, was
>> *thriving*. Maybe I should just Fed Ex her to my mom, and she can do
>> everything perfectly, and mail her back to me when she's finished.
>
> I'd love you to read one of Flylady's essays about perfection!
>

Oooh, great armchair psychiatrist stuff! I'm nodding in agreement at almost
everything you've written, Chookie!
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

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Jamie Clark

January 24th 06, 07:24 PM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Workingmom wrote:
>
>> The feeling here about swatting kids are going towards the feeling about
>> hitting anyone else. No-one would ever hit the grocerystore man, even if
>> he was a PITA. And if you hit your DH he probably wouldn't last long.
>>
>> We're in the process of learning that hitting/swatting your kid is as
>> ridiculous as hitting/swatting the busdriver or your mother or the
>> teacher at school.
>
> I'm personally against hitting children, and I have never hit my child,
> although there have been times I have been mightily tempted. But I
> will say, that one of the reasons I'm never evem *tempted* to hit the
> busdriver, or the teacher, or my mother, is they never hit *me*. Or
> take my hair in both hands and yank, or repeatedly poke me when I have
> both hands full and can't get them to stop, or grab things out of my
> hands, or take wild swings at fragile objects in stores, or commit any
> of the other violations of gentle and safe behavior that a small child
> can commit routinely.
>
> By the same token, many of the measures I substitute for smacking my
> child would also be inappropriate if applied to the bus driver or my
> mother - I never abruptly pick my mother up, carry her to a safe place,
> and tell her that if she can't behave properly she'll have to spend
> some quiet time there. Although I find that now I have proposed it,
> the mental image is pretty appealing. :-) Anyway, I guess my point is
> that interactions between a small child and a caretaker are so unlike
> interactions between two adults that it seems like a stretch to forbid
> just this one kind of punishment on that basis.
>
> Beth
>

I agree. Well put.
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
Guest
Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

Michelle J. Haines

January 24th 06, 08:18 PM

Workingmom wrote:
> Michelle J. Haines skrev:
>
>> This may be unthinkable in Denmark. Really, I'm not concerned about
>> what is or is not thinkable in Denmark, because I don't have to live
>> there. It's OK to acknowledge that cultures are different without one
>> necessarily being better or worse. A friend of mine who's an SAR
>> medic in Norway and I had a mutual shock when I discussed a DNR
>> situation with him...he flat out told me that's illegal in Norway and
>> downright stupid, and I picked my jaw up off the floor that he
>> wouldn't respect someone's wish to not be treated if they were terminal.
>
>
> I don't know what DNR is. Would you please enlighten me?

Do Not Resuscitate. You can sign this paperwork to refuse life-saving
treatment and/or heroic measures if you're a terminal patient. IOW, if
you live in my town, and you're DNR, if I come to your house because
you've had a heart attack and your daughter panicked and called 911, I'm
legally not supposed to perform CPR on you. We never take someone's
word on it, of course. If someone's DNR status is unknown, and a family
member states that, the answer is, "Show me the paperwork or get out of
my way." (In Wyoming there's a bracelet you can wear to show you're a
DNR patient.) And at any time, the patient themselves can verbally
revoke DNR.

Michelle
Flutist

Workingmom

January 24th 06, 08:26 PM

Michelle J. Haines skrev:

> Do Not Resuscitate. You can sign this paperwork to refuse life-saving
> treatment and/or heroic measures if you're a terminal patient. IOW, if
> you live in my town, and you're DNR, if I come to your house because
> you've had a heart attack and your daughter panicked and called 911, I'm
> legally not supposed to perform CPR on you. We never take someone's
> word on it, of course. If someone's DNR status is unknown, and a family
> member states that, the answer is, "Show me the paperwork or get out of
> my way." (In Wyoming there's a bracelet you can wear to show you're a
> DNR patient.) And at any time, the patient themselves can verbally
> revoke DNR.

Thanks. Not only did you have to translate, but you apparently also had
to explain. I'd never heard about it.

I looked it up here. It seems as if we have a 'Living will' which should
explain what and how much treatment you wish if you are a terminal patient.

These should be respected according to Danish law. I don't know how it
is in Norway (some earlier poster referred to Norway)

Tine, Denmark

Michelle J. Haines

January 24th 06, 08:48 PM

Workingmom wrote:
>
> These should be respected according to Danish law. I don't know how it
> is in Norway (some earlier poster referred to Norway)

me. :)

Michelle
Flutist

Circe

January 24th 06, 08:52 PM

"Chookie" > wrote in message
...
>> and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
>> moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
>> "Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
>> meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
>> and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
>> that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
>> in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
>> for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
>> example), I've already failed.
>
> Actually, I'd say your *mother* failed if she spent all those years using
> all
> her skills to such a high level and never taught them to you, nor gave you
> the
> confidence to attempt them on your own, nor passed on her enjoyment. (Did
> you
> notice that your description of your mother lists her skills, rather than
> her
> beliefs and sayings, or the way she makes you feel?)
>
As Jamie said, excellent armchair analysis, Chookie. I just had one thing to
add related to what you and Amy said here, and that is that I think it's
important to remember that your OWN children don't have YOUR mother (or
anyone else's, for that matter) as their model for the role of
"mother"--they have YOU. The things that you, Amy, associate with
Motherhood, are probably not going to be the things your child associates
with Motherhood if they aren't think you do. Your child isn't going to feel
shortchanged because you didn't do for her/with her all the things your
mother did with you, because her childhood will consist of memories of all
the things you DID do with her and for her.

I am far from a perfect parent. I am MUCH less patient than I remember my
mother being. Sometimes (like last night when we were trying to do homework
and my almost-4yo was doing his absolute best to make a pest of himself and
disrupt everything), I want to hang them all on hooks until they grow up! I
find myself yelling when I shouldn't, getting angry when I shouldn't, etc.,
etc., etc. But I'm doing my best. I seem to have been saddled with a quick
temper (a tendency towards flouncing off and slamming doors, which my mother
can verify started when I was quite young!), though I'm just as quick to
forgive and forget once I've let of steam. Unfortunately, though, becoming a
parent doesn't magically erase one's innate personality traits, so one does
one's best with what one has, and I am at least AWARE of my temper in a way
I wasn't before I had children.

All of this confessional is leading up to this point: My kids are always
telling me that I am the best mom in the "whole wide world". In spite of all
my flaws and my mistakes and my outright BAD decisions from time to time, I
am THEIR mom and they love ME. They love ME, not some idealized fantasy of
Motherhood. They don't feel shortchanged that I'm their mother instead of
some other "perfect mom"; instead, they're entire grateful to have ME, with
all my shortcomings, as THEIR mom.

So, Amy, I can pretty well guarantee that your daughter will love you, too,
and that she won't feel a bit shortchanged because you aren't YOUR mother.
Try to stop focussing on all the things you can't do and start focussing on
the things you CAN do. Concentrate on making a NEW image of motherhood for
your daughter, not remaking your own.
--

Workingmom

January 24th 06, 09:57 PM

Michelle J. Haines skrev:
> Workingmom wrote:
>
>>
>> These should be respected according to Danish law. I don't know how it
>> is in Norway (some earlier poster referred to Norway)
>
>
> me. :)
>
> Michelle
> Flutist

Right - you! I remember now :-)

Often Denmark - Norway - Sweden have legislation that are more or less
alike, but not always.

Tine, Denmark

Workingmom

January 24th 06, 09:59 PM

Circe skrev:
> So, Amy, I can pretty well guarantee that your daughter will love you, too,
> and that she won't feel a bit shortchanged because you aren't YOUR mother.
> Try to stop focussing on all the things you can't do and start focussing on
> the things you CAN do. Concentrate on making a NEW image of motherhood for
> your daughter, not remaking your own.

Well said - couldn't have done it better myself (probably couldn't even
have done it as well, but don't tell anybody)

Tine, Denmark

cjra

January 24th 06, 10:20 PM

Workingmom wrote:
> Michelle J. Haines skrev:
> > Workingmom wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> These should be respected according to Danish law. I don't know how it
> >> is in Norway (some earlier poster referred to Norway)
> >
> >
> > me. :)
> >
> > Michelle
> > Flutist
>
> Right - you! I remember now :-)
>
> Often Denmark - Norway - Sweden have legislation that are more or less
> alike, but not always.
>

Wait! I thought they were all one place. You mean they're not??

;-)

Jamie Clark

January 24th 06, 11:06 PM

"Circe" > wrote in message
news:yswBf.12507$sA3.9204@fed1read02...
> "Chookie" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
>>> moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, but the things that say
>>> "Motherhood" to me are those little details - having homemade, healthy
>>> meals - she had a garden and she canned all of her own tomatoes, etc.
>>> and we ate them throughout the year - my kid is never going to have
>>> that! I wouldn't have the first clue how to do any of it. So, I guess
>>> in being bad at that stuff, or not interested in it, or unable to do it
>>> for whatever reason (we don't have room for a garden in our yard, for
>>> example), I've already failed.
>>
>> Actually, I'd say your *mother* failed if she spent all those years using
>> all
>> her skills to such a high level and never taught them to you, nor gave
>> you the
>> confidence to attempt them on your own, nor passed on her enjoyment. (Did
>> you
>> notice that your description of your mother lists her skills, rather than
>> her
>> beliefs and sayings, or the way she makes you feel?)
>>
> As Jamie said, excellent armchair analysis, Chookie. I just had one thing
> to add related to what you and Amy said here, and that is that I think
> it's important to remember that your OWN children don't have YOUR mother
> (or anyone else's, for that matter) as their model for the role of
> "mother"--they have YOU. The things that you, Amy, associate with
> Motherhood, are probably not going to be the things your child associates
> with Motherhood if they aren't think you do. Your child isn't going to
> feel shortchanged because you didn't do for her/with her all the things
> your mother did with you, because her childhood will consist of memories
> of all the things you DID do with her and for her.
>
> I am far from a perfect parent. I am MUCH less patient than I remember my
> mother being. Sometimes (like last night when we were trying to do
> homework and my almost-4yo was doing his absolute best to make a pest of
> himself and disrupt everything), I want to hang them all on hooks until
> they grow up! I find myself yelling when I shouldn't, getting angry when I
> shouldn't, etc., etc., etc. But I'm doing my best. I seem to have been
> saddled with a quick temper (a tendency towards flouncing off and slamming
> doors, which my mother can verify started when I was quite young!), though
> I'm just as quick to forgive and forget once I've let of steam.
> Unfortunately, though, becoming a parent doesn't magically erase one's
> innate personality traits, so one does one's best with what one has, and I
> am at least AWARE of my temper in a way I wasn't before I had children.
>
> All of this confessional is leading up to this point: My kids are always
> telling me that I am the best mom in the "whole wide world". In spite of
> all my flaws and my mistakes and my outright BAD decisions from time to
> time, I am THEIR mom and they love ME. They love ME, not some idealized
> fantasy of Motherhood. They don't feel shortchanged that I'm their mother
> instead of some other "perfect mom"; instead, they're entire grateful to
> have ME, with all my shortcomings, as THEIR mom.
>
> So, Amy, I can pretty well guarantee that your daughter will love you,
> too, and that she won't feel a bit shortchanged because you aren't YOUR
> mother. Try to stop focussing on all the things you can't do and start
> focussing on the things you CAN do. Concentrate on making a NEW image of
> motherhood for your daughter, not remaking your own.
> --
>
>
Whooooo HAAAA! Amen, sister, Amen!
--

Jamie
Earth Angels:
Taylor Marlys, 1/3/03 -- Who's got the Christmas spirit, singing all day
long, "You put one foot in front of the other, and soon you'll be walking
out the doooo-oooo-ooor!
Addison Grace, 9/30/04 -- My Little Ham, who smiles so big her eyes
disappear and she says, "Cheese" on command. Although it sounds more like
"eeeeeesssshhh"!

Check out the family! -- www.MyFamily.com, User ID: Clarkguest1, Password:
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Become a member for free - go to Add Member to set up your own User ID and
Password

ms. bb

January 24th 06, 11:11 PM

Amy wrote:
> I'm only 50 pages in, but I have to recommend "What No One Tells the
> Mom" by Marg Stark. Her other book, "What No One Tells the Bride"
> basically saved the first year of my marriage, and this one is every
> bit as good. I wish I'd had it months ago. I've just had a very
> personal, and yet very HUGE breakthrough about the reason why I was so
> terrified when I was pregnant. I'm not going to go into details, but
> after figuring it out, and having a good cry, a lot of things about the
> last year are starting to make sense... Things are in focus again, and
> I'm on the road to understanding what has happened to me, and that's
> nothing but a good thing, IMHO.
>
> If I'm on the road to understanding myself, it can't be long before I
> see myself hitchhiking along here somewhere, wondering where I've been
> all this time...
>
> Amy
> (not affiliated with the author or publisher in any way, but I do have
> a "frequent buyer" card at Barnes and Noble)

ms. bb

January 24th 06, 11:16 PM

Woops...lemme try this again.

Just wanted to let you know that if you are the same Amy Austin that
reviewed the book on Amazon, you may wanna re-write your review because
under the "Was this review helpful?" section you scored 0 out of 4.

This may not mean squat to you but I thought I'd let you know.

Ericka Kammerer

January 24th 06, 11:36 PM

Chookie wrote:
> In article >,
> Ericka Kammerer > wrote:
>
>
>>>IOW PPD is a normal reaction -- the abnormal
>>>expectations ahead of it are the real problem.
>>
>> I don't think that's true. I think it may well be
>>true that PPD is more common in those who tend to be
>>perfectionists or have unreasonable expectations of themselves,
>>but I don't think that is the *cause*, and it certainly
>>happens to women who don't have unreasonable expectations
>>prior to getting hit with it. I think that explanation
>>trivializes the reality of PPD, as if it's something
>>you could just get over with an attitude adjustment.
>
> Well, that's if you think an attitude adjustment is something you can do with
> a spanner in a couple of minutes! I don't! So I don't believe I'm
> trivialising it -- PPD is known to have its roots in many things, but this
> root seems quite a prominent one to me. I'm only guilty of overstating my
> case :-)

But even then, it seems to imply that PPD is a
personality disorder, when many believe that it has
significant physiologic roots as well. You don't get
over those "just" with an attitude adjustment, whether
it's a "quick fix" or a long term, life changing,
mammoth effort.

>>I also think that many people are just flat
>>out undisciplined, which makes everything harder.
>
> Ooooh, what kinds of things are you thinking of? (I'm not going to infer that
> you mean all PPD people are slobs.)

Sorry, I had wandered away from the topic of PPD
and more into just generic having difficulty coping with
parenthood. I think people used to be much more routinized
than many are today, and I think those routines helped
people keep their lives under some semblance of control.
I think technology and changing priorities/values and
other things have combined to create a situation where
many people live their lives very reactively and in a
very ad hoc manner, at least at home. Many people can
keep things afloat that way without kids, but throw
a kid or two into the mix and it becomes very chaotic
and frustrating for many. Plus, it feeds on itself.
Kids tend to thrive on some degree of routine and
predictability in their lives, and without it, many
get more challenging to deal with. So, you keep
piling chaos upon chaos and life gets overwhelming
very quickly and you can feel very ineffective and
hopeless when there's nothing really wrong that
taking charge and implementing some structure wouldn't
fix (or at least improve dramatically). I seem to
see a lot of folks who believe that people who seem
to have their lives under control manage to accomplish
that by just reacting to events better, when in fact,
most folks achieve that by planning and being proactive
and structuring their lives in such a was as to make
things easier. They're likely not working nearly
as hard to achieve more consistent results than the
person who is feeling overwhelmed and frustrated in
the midst of chaos.
But, to reiterate, I don't think that has
anything to do with PPD (except that people who
are depressed tend to have even more difficulty
with whatever routines they might have had, so it
becomes even easier for them to slip into this
chaos and spiral out of control even if they wouldn't
have done that minus the PPD).

Best wishes,
Ericka

Circe

January 25th 06, 12:16 AM

"Workingmom" > wrote in message
. ..
> Circe skrev:
>> So, Amy, I can pretty well guarantee that your daughter will love you,
>> too, and that she won't feel a bit shortchanged because you aren't YOUR
>> mother. Try to stop focussing on all the things you can't do and start
>> focussing on the things you CAN do. Concentrate on making a NEW image of
>> motherhood for your daughter, not remaking your own.
>
> Well said - couldn't have done it better myself (probably couldn't even
> have done it as well, but don't tell anybody)
>
Aw, thanks, Tine. I appreciate that. (And since you just told everybody, I
don't see why I should tell anybody, either!)
--
Be well, Barbara

Circe

January 25th 06, 12:20 AM

"Jamie Clark" > wrote in message
...
> Whooooo HAAAA! Amen, sister, Amen!

Wow, two in a row, and from two of my favorite posters, no less. I blush!

Seriously, though, it never ceases to amaze me how much my kids love me,
despite the fact that I fall way short many time of my OWN expectations of
what a mother says and does. I suffer seriously from "must do everything
perfectly and make everybody happy" syndrome, and I can honestly say that
motherhood has been a major comeuppance for me. It's taken me quite a while
to realize that it's something I'm never going to do with anything close to
100% accuracy!
--
Be well, Barbara

Michelle J. Haines

January 25th 06, 02:10 AM

Workingmom wrote:
>
> Right - you! I remember now :-)
>
> Often Denmark - Norway - Sweden have legislation that are more or less
> alike, but not always.

WRT the living will thing...usually living wills in the US are in the
context of you being on a ventilator or feeding tube and having
experienced brain death or a persistent vegetative state or coma of some
sort, and you can leave instructions to have those removed.

DNR usually covers more not -starting- procedures such as intubation,
CPR, etc.

Michelle
Flutist

Workingmom

January 25th 06, 07:25 AM

cjra skrev:
> Workingmom wrote:
>
>>Michelle J. Haines skrev:
>>
>>>Workingmom wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>These should be respected according to Danish law. I don't know how it
>>>>is in Norway (some earlier poster referred to Norway)
>>>
>>>
>>>me. :)
>>>
>>>Michelle
>>>Flutist
>>
>>Right - you! I remember now :-)
>>
>>Often Denmark - Norway - Sweden have legislation that are more or less
>>alike, but not always.
>>
>
>
> Wait! I thought they were all one place. You mean they're not??
>
> ;-)
>

Nearly - in your opinion they may not even qualify as countries. But we
each have a king/queen, a language, a parliarment and a legislation.

And Sweden is NOT the capitol of Scandinavia :-)

Tine, Denmark

Chookie

January 25th 06, 01:14 PM

In article >,
Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> >>I think that explanation
> >>trivializes the reality of PPD, as if it's something
> >>you could just get over with an attitude adjustment.
> >
> > Well, that's if you think an attitude adjustment is something you can do
> > with a spanner in a couple of minutes! I don't!
>
> But even then, it seems to imply that PPD is a
> personality disorder, when many believe that it has
> significant physiologic roots as well. You don't get
> over those "just" with an attitude adjustment, whether
> it's a "quick fix" or a long term, life changing,
> mammoth effort.

However, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (= an attitude adjustment?) works quite
well on people suffering mood disorders such as depression and anxiety. Of
course, it is often (though not exclusively) used in conjunction with
medication. However, my original point was that I was struck by how *many* of
the people I've encountered with PPD have unrealistic expectations of their
babies, and perfectionistic approaches to their lives. These characteristics
themselves may be driven by physiology as well as family history, experiences
etc, of course, but they can be modified via CBT.

PPD and other mood disorders are most likely driven by a combination of
physiological susceptibility, environmental triggers (eg difficult delivery is
associated with PPD) *and* thought patterns. If we modify some of these
conditions, we can perhaps prevent or alleviate some cases. I hope so, anyway.

> I think people used to be much more routinized
> than many are today, and I think those routines helped
> people keep their lives under some semblance of control.

ITA -- it is very interesting being a member of Flylady and seeing how
people's lives change just because they have put some (useful) structure in
their day! And a startling number of these people suffer from mood
disorders...

Reading Laura Ingalls Wilder certainly gives you the impression that Ma had
certain jobs that she did every day in the same order, before getting onto the
seasonal work of the day. I do wonder how the babies' eating and sleeping
affected her mornings.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Ericka Kammerer

January 25th 06, 02:05 PM

Chookie wrote:
> In article >,
> Ericka Kammerer > wrote:
>
>
>>>>I think that explanation
>>>>trivializes the reality of PPD, as if it's something
>>>>you could just get over with an attitude adjustment.
>>>
>>>Well, that's if you think an attitude adjustment is something you can do
>>>with a spanner in a couple of minutes! I don't!
>>
>> But even then, it seems to imply that PPD is a
>>personality disorder, when many believe that it has
>>significant physiologic roots as well. You don't get
>>over those "just" with an attitude adjustment, whether
>>it's a "quick fix" or a long term, life changing,
>>mammoth effort.
>
>
> However, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (= an attitude adjustment?) works quite
> well on people suffering mood disorders such as depression and anxiety. Of
> course, it is often (though not exclusively) used in conjunction with
> medication. However, my original point was that I was struck by how *many* of
> the people I've encountered with PPD have unrealistic expectations of their
> babies, and perfectionistic approaches to their lives. These characteristics
> themselves may be driven by physiology as well as family history, experiences
> etc, of course, but they can be modified via CBT.

Right--you've got a "chicken and egg" dilemma. It could
very easily be that those who are wired to be prone to depression
have a distorted view and distorted expectations as a result.

> PPD and other mood disorders are most likely driven by a combination of
> physiological susceptibility, environmental triggers (eg difficult delivery is
> associated with PPD) *and* thought patterns. If we modify some of these
> conditions, we can perhaps prevent or alleviate some cases. I hope so, anyway.

In some cases, but I think it's really important
not to give people the impression that depression is "all
in your head." Yeah, you can make some inroads without
medication in some cases, but it's not *just* inappropriate
expectations that causes someone to become clinically depressed.
It's that sort of thinking that makes people avoid getting
a diagnosis and treatment because they think that if it's
"just" a matter of inappropriate expectations, then they
can and should be able to fix that on their own. People
who are depressed need encouragement not to blame themseles
(for their "bad" thought patterns) and to go get help.

>>I think people used to be much more routinized
>>than many are today, and I think those routines helped
>>people keep their lives under some semblance of control.
>
> ITA -- it is very interesting being a member of Flylady and seeing how
> people's lives change just because they have put some (useful) structure in
> their day! And a startling number of these people suffer from mood
> disorders...
>
> Reading Laura Ingalls Wilder certainly gives you the impression that Ma had
> certain jobs that she did every day in the same order, before getting onto the
> seasonal work of the day. I do wonder how the babies' eating and sleeping
> affected her mornings.

Of course they did. That's why there are all those
little ditties like "Wash on Monday, iron on Tuesday..."
Dinner was promptly at a certain time, every day. I rather
suspect that most babies just fell into the routine. Today,
we have the luxury of being more accommodating of things like
babies' varied eating and sleeping schedules. When your
life requires a schedule, babies tend to fall into them.
It's no accident that later borns often seem to have less
difficulty getting into a routine than first borns. It's
not because later borns are somehow wired to be more routinized.
It's simply that they came into a world with more of a schedule
out of necessity, and they adapted.
I wouldn't suggest that things must go back to being
as scheduled as they were, or that *all* babies fall easily
into schedules. There are high needs babies now, and I'm sure
there were high needs babies then that presented extra challenges.
I think a lot of the routine before came simply because
a high degree of planning was necessary due to available
technology. When you can't just pop down to the store,
you'd better have your meals planned and have a good grocery
list the time that you do go. When you can't just throw the
clothes in and push a button to get laundry done, you have
to plan to get the water, heat the water, and wash and dry
the clothes. All of our modern conveniences make things
easier, but they remove the technological constraints that
imposed some structure. However, just because we *can* do
more things on an ad hoc basis doesn't mean that doing everything
that way is a more effective way to run a household.
Personally, I'm terrible--I'd much rather just
float through the day doing whatever/whenever. It's one
reason I like consulting work better than working for a
single employer. As a consultant, I react to clients' needs,
help them solve an issue, and then respond to questions/
issues/needs. Working in my field for an employer means
managing a system day-to-day, with all the planning and
monitoring and so forth that entails. I can do it, and I
know I *have* to do it in that situation, but it's not
my nature. At home, I'm a strong believer in routines
and order, but I have to flog myself to make it happen
and I fall off the bandwagon the moment I take my attention
off of it. You know how they say do something for X days
and it'll be a habit? Pbbbbth. I could do something
every day for a *year*, and the instant I didn't make a
conscious effort to do it, I'd stop. I'm incredibly
routine resistant ;-) But I know what a difference it
makes.

Best wishes,
Ericka

cjra

January 25th 06, 02:18 PM

Workingmom wrote:
> cjra skrev:
> > Workingmom wrote:
> >
> >>Michelle J. Haines skrev:
> >>
> >>>Workingmom wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>These should be respected according to Danish law. I don't know how it
> >>>>is in Norway (some earlier poster referred to Norway)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>me. :)
> >>>
> >>>Michelle
> >>>Flutist
> >>
> >>Right - you! I remember now :-)
> >>
> >>Often Denmark - Norway - Sweden have legislation that are more or less
> >>alike, but not always.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Wait! I thought they were all one place. You mean they're not??
> >
> > ;-)
> >
>
> Nearly - in your opinion they may not even qualify as countries. But we
> each have a king/queen, a language, a parliarment and a legislation.
>
> And Sweden is NOT the capitol of Scandinavia :-)

It's ok, as a former and part-time European, I was just kidding :)

Americans always confuse them, but the worst was when CNN put up a map
showing Sweden as Switzerland (or vice versa, can't remember now).

Workingmom

January 25th 06, 04:00 PM

cjra skrev:
>>
>>Nearly - in your opinion they may not even qualify as countries. But we
>>each have a king/queen, a language, a parliarment and a legislation.
>>
>>And Sweden is NOT the capitol of Scandinavia :-)
>
> It's ok, as a former and part-time European, I was just kidding :)

I realized that :-)

> Americans always confuse them, but the worst was when CNN put up a map
> showing Sweden as Switzerland (or vice versa, can't remember now).

Like people saying: Iraq - Iran - why can't they decide what to call the
country.

Tine, Denmark

Chookie

January 25th 06, 10:48 PM

In article >,
Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> > However, my original point was that I was struck by how *many* of
> > the people I've encountered with PPD have unrealistic expectations of their
> > babies, and perfectionistic approaches to their lives. These
> > characteristics themselves may be driven by physiology as well as family
> > history, experiences etc, of course, but they can be modified via CBT.
>
> Right--you've got a "chicken and egg" dilemma. It could
> very easily be that those who are wired to be prone to depression
> have a distorted view and distorted expectations as a result.

And also, research indicates that babies brought up in a stressful situation
grow up to be anxious adults -- ie, our physiological wiring is affected by
our environment.

> > PPD and other mood disorders are most likely driven by a combination of
> > physiological susceptibility, environmental triggers (eg difficult delivery
> > is associated with PPD) *and* thought patterns. If we modify some of these
> > conditions, we can perhaps prevent or alleviate some cases. I hope so,
> > anyway.
>
> In some cases, but I think it's really important
> not to give people the impression that depression is "all
> in your head." Yeah, you can make some inroads without
> medication in some cases, but it's not *just* inappropriate
> expectations that causes someone to become clinically depressed.
> It's that sort of thinking that makes people avoid getting
> a diagnosis and treatment because they think that if it's
> "just" a matter of inappropriate expectations, then they
> can and should be able to fix that on their own. People
> who are depressed need encouragement not to blame themseles
> (for their "bad" thought patterns) and to go get help.

Yes -- I was noting an association, not apportioning blame or suggesting
treatment could be self-administered (though this site is good for people who
want to try CBT on their own: http://moodgym.anu.edu.au/).

I do think that these particular habits of thinking are, hmmm, maladaptive in
general. Even if they don't push you into depression, they can do terrible
things to the people around you. Think of children of perfectionist parents,
for example (again, there's a cohort of Flybabies who avoided cleanliness and
tidiness for years in reaction to their parents' white glove testing at home!).

> When your
> life requires a schedule, babies tend to fall into them.
> It's no accident that later borns often seem to have less
> difficulty getting into a routine than first borns.

In my case, I don't think DS2 is amenable to routines; it's simply that we
have more to do as a family so that if DS2 has to be woken up and dragged off
somewhere, tough. We were more courteous to DS1!

> All of our modern conveniences make things
> easier, but they remove the technological constraints that
> imposed some structure. However, just because we *can* do
> more things on an ad hoc basis doesn't mean that doing everything
> that way is a more effective way to run a household.

Rather the opposite!

> At home, I'm a strong believer in routines
> and order, but I have to flog myself to make it happen
> and I fall off the bandwagon the moment I take my attention
> off of it. You know how they say do something for X days
> and it'll be a habit? Pbbbbth. I could do something
> every day for a *year*, and the instant I didn't make a
> conscious effort to do it, I'd stop. I'm incredibly
> routine resistant ;-) But I know what a difference it
> makes.

One of the reasons I find Flylady helpful is that my routines are *written*
(and on my fridge). I've been doing this stuff for 4 years and it isn't
automatic yet!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Welches

January 25th 06, 11:09 PM

"Chookie" > wrote in message
...
>!).
>
>> When your
>> life requires a schedule, babies tend to fall into them.
>> It's no accident that later borns often seem to have less
>> difficulty getting into a routine than first borns.
>
> In my case, I don't think DS2 is amenable to routines; it's simply that we
> have more to do as a family so that if DS2 has to be woken up and dragged
> off
> somewhere, tough. We were more courteous to DS1!
LOL
#1 fell naturally into her own routine at 10 months.
Even though we now have to be places at a particular time daily, which we
rarely had to with #1... #2 still doesn't have a set routine.
I guess some are born with routines, some achieve routines and some have
routines thrust upon them? (and some, like #2 go their own sweet way
ignoring all routines)
Debbie

Ericka Kammerer

January 26th 06, 01:28 AM

Chookie wrote:
> In article >,
> Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

>>When your
>>life requires a schedule, babies tend to fall into them.
>>It's no accident that later borns often seem to have less
>>difficulty getting into a routine than first borns.
>
> In my case, I don't think DS2 is amenable to routines; it's simply that we
> have more to do as a family so that if DS2 has to be woken up and dragged off
> somewhere, tough. We were more courteous to DS1!

Exactly--you have fewer choices, so you plan ahead,
create routines, and everyone has to adapt. And lo and
behold, babies tend to adapt! Those firstborns likely
would have adapted too, if they'd needed to. But, because
we didn't *need* them to, we didn't create that environment
of routines and maybe found ourselves with a more challenging
situation than absoluted had to exist.
I can't tell you the number of times I've seen
families with little to no routines for their firstborns
agonizing over how hard everything was and assuming that
there wasn't anything they could do about it--that they
just had to react to whatever the baby dished out. Fast
forward a few years to the same family with baby #2, and
by George, they've got routines (because they didn't
have any choice due to #1's preschool/etc. schedule)
and they're marveling at how much easier #2 is ;-)
Mind you, it's not always that way. I'm not
denying the existence of high needs babies. I'm also
not suggesting that we go back to the "good old days"
of putting babies on rigid schedules. I believe in
feeding on demand and that sort of thing. I just
think you can tune into baby's natural rhythms and
nudge things one way or another to get better
routines going. I think this often works and makes
everything else about parenting go more smoothly,
and makes parents feel much less frantic and
out of control.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Amy

January 26th 06, 04:40 AM

Hi all,

I've given myself some time to think about all the responses in this
thread - and I want you to know that I've read them, am thinking about
them, and I appreciate them. I just don't know what to say in response
right now. I'm still marinating on them...

But I had a question about this:

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

> Mind you, it's not always that way. I'm not
> denying the existence of high needs babies. I'm also
> not suggesting that we go back to the "good old days"
> of putting babies on rigid schedules. I believe in
> feeding on demand and that sort of thing. I just
> think you can tune into baby's natural rhythms and
> nudge things one way or another to get better
> routines going. I think this often works and makes
> everything else about parenting go more smoothly,
> and makes parents feel much less frantic and
> out of control.

Ok, part of this is not knowing what an appropriate routine for a 5.5
month old *is*. I mean, we get up in the morning, change her pants,
and come downstairs in our jammies and we get a cup of (decaf) coffee,
and a granola bar, and she plays on the floor while I check my e-mail,
and we just sort of chill. Then, about an hour after she woke up, we
change pants again, then go down for morning nap. Morning nap lasts
anywhere from 3 hours (in which case I get showered, dressed, start the
laundry, unload the dishwasher, clean the bathroom, get a little work
done, make a few phone calls, and start wondering if my chest is going
to explode before she wakes up) to 25 minutes (because the dog barks or
because it's Tuesday and we just don't sleep on Tuesdays - in which
case I barely get myself dressed some mornings).

Beyond that, it's just random - because I don't know how to structure
anything when I can't predict how long she's going to sleep. I've
tried nursing her back down, and that usually doesn't work. So, if she
slept three hours, she's not going to need to sleep again for a while,
but if she only slept 25 minutes, she's going to need to rest sooner,
and I can't plan the rest of the day not knowing how it's going to be
until I've seen how she's going to sleep that day, you know?

Evenings are a similar problem - if DH gets home at 5:30 or 6, things
are pretty routine. He takes the dog and the baby for a walk if the
weather's warm, if not, he plays with her while I get dinner made. We
eat, then I clean up if she's being nice, but if she's fussy he cleans
up while I nurse her, then we do a bath, story, nurse down, bed around
8 or 8:30. But if he gets home late, or if she's fussy (lately because
she's teething) or whatever, it throws everything off, and some nights
I don't get her nursed down until 10 pm or later (not for lack of
trying - just because I'm nursing and nursing and she won't go to
sleep).

DH and I weren't really structured people prior to having her - we were
kind of spontaneous. Not that we ever really did much, but we were
sort of, "What time do you feel like eating dinner tonight?" "I don't
know, not for an hour or two yet, let's watch TV instead..." sort of
people. We didn't have dinner every night at 6:30 or anything. It's
not really in our nature to be that way. So how do we start now that
we have a kid? And what is an appropriate routine for a baby her age?
How can I have routines and still be flexible?

When I was teaching it was easy, because the bells rang at the same
times every day, so it was easy to do the same stuff - say the pledge,
take attendance, do the weather, then break into groups for
instruction, etc. - every day at the same time. But life at home just
isn't like that - the things I need to do each day differ from the day
before (I don't need to do laundry every day, and I don't need to run
errands every day - some days are busy, some are boring). I know that
structure is important, I just don't know how to get there, other than
to wake up, change pants, nurse, be up for a bit, then nurse down to
sleep, lather, rinse, repeat.... And I'm pretty sure that that's not
what you mean.

Thanks,
Amy

[email protected]

January 26th 06, 06:26 AM

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

> Sorry, I had wandered away from the topic of PPD
> and more into just generic having difficulty coping with
> parenthood. I think people used to be much more routinized
> than many are today, and I think those routines helped
> people keep their lives under some semblance of control.
> I think technology and changing priorities/values and
> other things have combined to create a situation where
> many people live their lives very reactively and in a
> very ad hoc manner, at least at home. Many people can
> keep things afloat that way without kids, but throw
> a kid or two into the mix and it becomes very chaotic
> and frustrating for many.

Since our schedule changes completely every semester I can agree with
this. :-)

Transitional weeks utterly *suck*, when we change from one routine to
another. But there's nothing to be done about them; some semesters DH
teaches daily morning classes and some he teaches two night classes and
a weekend class, and some weeks I have night rehearsals until 10 pm
and some I have to be at a job site 40 miles away at 8 am when the
carpenters are there. Just to get everyone enough sleep to go to work
our routine has to flex +/- four hours every time I turn around. :-(

It definitely helps things if we run the same morning routine and night
routine regardless of the time, though. When that's possible.

--
C, mama to three year old nursling

Irrational Number

January 26th 06, 08:42 AM

Chookie wrote:

> In article . com>,
> "Amy" > wrote:
>
>> It's a LOT to try to live up to.
>>and it doesn't make sense, because plenty of kids grow up with
>>moms who don't make cookies and they're fine, [...]
>
> Actually, I'd say your *mother* failed if she spent all those years using all
> her skills to such a high level and never taught them to you, nor gave you the
> confidence to attempt them on your own, nor passed on her enjoyment. (Did you
> notice that your description of your mother lists her skills, rather than her
> beliefs and sayings, or the way she makes you feel?)

What Chookie said.

Also, you should do with your daughter your
own stuff. Don't live in your mother's
pattern. I may not be as great a cook as
my mother, but my children will know I took
them to swim lessons from the time they were
12 months old. My mom doesn't even swim! ;)

My mom made cute dresses for me, but she
never made a quilt. I've already made
several for the kids.

Make your own world.

-- Anita --

Ericka Kammerer

January 26th 06, 01:37 PM

Amy wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've given myself some time to think about all the responses in this
> thread - and I want you to know that I've read them, am thinking about
> them, and I appreciate them. I just don't know what to say in response
> right now. I'm still marinating on them...
>
> But I had a question about this:
>
> Ericka Kammerer wrote:
>
>
>> Mind you, it's not always that way. I'm not
>>denying the existence of high needs babies. I'm also
>>not suggesting that we go back to the "good old days"
>>of putting babies on rigid schedules. I believe in
>>feeding on demand and that sort of thing. I just
>>think you can tune into baby's natural rhythms and
>>nudge things one way or another to get better
>>routines going. I think this often works and makes
>>everything else about parenting go more smoothly,
>>and makes parents feel much less frantic and
>>out of control.
>
>
> Ok, part of this is not knowing what an appropriate routine for a 5.5
> month old *is*. I mean, we get up in the morning, change her pants,
> and come downstairs in our jammies and we get a cup of (decaf) coffee,
> and a granola bar, and she plays on the floor while I check my e-mail,
> and we just sort of chill. Then, about an hour after she woke up, we
> change pants again, then go down for morning nap. Morning nap lasts
> anywhere from 3 hours (in which case I get showered, dressed, start the
> laundry, unload the dishwasher, clean the bathroom, get a little work
> done, make a few phone calls, and start wondering if my chest is going
> to explode before she wakes up) to 25 minutes (because the dog barks or
> because it's Tuesday and we just don't sleep on Tuesdays - in which
> case I barely get myself dressed some mornings).
>
> Beyond that, it's just random - because I don't know how to structure
> anything when I can't predict how long she's going to sleep. I've
> tried nursing her back down, and that usually doesn't work. So, if she
> slept three hours, she's not going to need to sleep again for a while,
> but if she only slept 25 minutes, she's going to need to rest sooner,
> and I can't plan the rest of the day not knowing how it's going to be
> until I've seen how she's going to sleep that day, you know?

Well, think of it this way: If you had a preschooler
who had to get to school and be picked up at certain times,
or you had to go to work and take her to a babysitter and
pick her up at preset times, what would you do? Odds are,
you'd do what you had to do when you had to do it, even if
that meant waking her up or delaying a nap a bit until
you got back home or whatever. It could be that she
naps unpredictably because there isn't really a rhythm
to her napping. Again, I'm not suggesting rigid adherence
to a timetable. If I had a baby who had a short morning
nap, I probably would put her down a bit early for an
afternoon nap. Even now, if my toddler has a short nap,
and she's cranky, I'll move bedtime up a little bit if
that's possible. But, unless the situation was dire,
I wouldn't compensate for a 2 hour shorter morning
nap with a 2 hour earlier afternoon nap. I'd try to
have the afternoon nap close to the usual time and
compensate for the crankiness by going out for a
walk or doing something else active and interesting
during the cranky period to help get through it.
Same with extra-long naps. I'll let a baby nap a
little longer than usual, but in general, if a
successful nap is 2 hours, I'm probably not going
to let it go 3+ hours (assuming baby is not sick
or making up for a shorter earlier nap or whatever),
even though the temptation to do so is strong ;-)

> Evenings are a similar problem - if DH gets home at 5:30 or 6, things
> are pretty routine. He takes the dog and the baby for a walk if the
> weather's warm, if not, he plays with her while I get dinner made. We
> eat, then I clean up if she's being nice, but if she's fussy he cleans
> up while I nurse her, then we do a bath, story, nurse down, bed around
> 8 or 8:30. But if he gets home late, or if she's fussy (lately because
> she's teething) or whatever, it throws everything off, and some nights
> I don't get her nursed down until 10 pm or later (not for lack of
> trying - just because I'm nursing and nursing and she won't go to
> sleep).

Do you need to nurse her until she's out cold?
Or could you nurse her at 8pm, put her down, and let her
go about her business of falling asleep? When your schedule
gets disrupted like that, is it possible that a late dinner
and a stressful evening interferes with your milk production?
Would you be better off carrying on as usual, even if your
husband's not home on time?

> DH and I weren't really structured people prior to having her - we were
> kind of spontaneous. Not that we ever really did much, but we were
> sort of, "What time do you feel like eating dinner tonight?" "I don't
> know, not for an hour or two yet, let's watch TV instead..." sort of
> people. We didn't have dinner every night at 6:30 or anything. It's
> not really in our nature to be that way. So how do we start now that
> we have a kid? And what is an appropriate routine for a baby her age?
> How can I have routines and still be flexible?

I understand how tough it is to make the transition.
It's not in my nature to be this structured either. However,
I'd rather suck it up and get some more routine going than
have to deal with the rollercoaster.
As far as an appropriate routine, I don't really
think there's a magic routine that's appropriate for every
child and every family. In general, at that age my kids
were transitioning from 3 to 2 naps per day (with bedtime
around 9/9:30pm with 3 naps, or at 7:30 or so with 2 naps).
My days went *much* better if we got up and out and did
*something*. I'd usually try to do something after the
morning nap and after the afternoon nap (getting out of
the house, if possible, even if just to go for a walk).

> When I was teaching it was easy, because the bells rang at the same
> times every day, so it was easy to do the same stuff - say the pledge,
> take attendance, do the weather, then break into groups for
> instruction, etc. - every day at the same time. But life at home just
> isn't like that - the things I need to do each day differ from the day
> before (I don't need to do laundry every day, and I don't need to run
> errands every day - some days are busy, some are boring). I know that
> structure is important, I just don't know how to get there, other than
> to wake up, change pants, nurse, be up for a bit, then nurse down to
> sleep, lather, rinse, repeat.... And I'm pretty sure that that's not
> what you mean.

Well, that is part of it. But I think you *can*
impose a bit more structure if that's what you need to
get a rhythm going in your day. In my case, I found it
really helpful to do *something* after the morning nap
and after the afternoon nap. With older kids in the
house, that "thing" could have been as simple as getting
and older kid to or from preschool or an activity. It
could be grocery shopping one day or a walk another day
or visiting a friend yet another day. For me anyway,
staying home all day every day was the kiss of death.
Even now, with a 2.5 year old toddler, if I have a day
where I just have a lot of work and other things to
do at home and we don't go out and do something, it's
a killer. She'll be irritable and hard to deal with
and I'll get increasingly frustrated and nothing will
go well and she'll probably cut her afternoon nap
short (and then I'll be even more behind!).

Speaking of, this morning's adventure is that
I'm going to a meeting at work and she's going to
Grandma's, so I'd better get my rump in gear...

I should say that I don't mean to suggest
that developing a bit more of a routine will be
a silver bullet that will make everything perfect
and your baby always compliant. If only! It's just
my experience and belief that it does make things
significantly easier to deal with and help gets
everyone in a groove where they know what's going
to happen. Babies have no control over what happens
to them when. The world is unpredictable, and
unpredictable is scary and stress-inducing. Being
able to predict what will happen next is very
soothing for a baby. It won't turn a high needs
baby into an easy one, but it will likely take
down the stress and effort a bit, and every bit
helps when you're on the edge.
I also don't mean to suggest that it's easy
to do this. When you're not a routinized person
by nature, it's tough. It does mean giving up
some flexibility. It does mean planning ahead.
However, it pays some significant dividends. Also,
as I said, you don't have to be slavish. You can
usually push times a bit this way or that, and
you can substitute sort of equivalent activities
(one quiet activity for another, one active activity
for another, etc.). It's the rhythm of the day
that you're trying to stabilize a bit, not punch
a time clock.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Chookie

January 27th 06, 11:53 AM

In article . com>,
"Amy" > wrote:

> Ok, part of this is not knowing what an appropriate routine for a 5.5
> month old *is*. I mean, we get up in the morning, change her pants,
> and come downstairs in our jammies and we get a cup of (decaf) coffee,
> and a granola bar, and she plays on the floor while I check my e-mail,
> and we just sort of chill. Then, about an hour after she woke up, we
> change pants again, then go down for morning nap. Morning nap lasts
> anywhere from 3 hours (in which case I get showered, dressed, start the
> laundry, unload the dishwasher, clean the bathroom, get a little work
> done, make a few phone calls, and start wondering if my chest is going
> to explode before she wakes up) to 25 minutes (because the dog barks or
> because it's Tuesday and we just don't sleep on Tuesdays - in which
> case I barely get myself dressed some mornings).
>
> Beyond that, it's just random - because I don't know how to structure
> anything when I can't predict how long she's going to sleep.

Apart from suggesting Flylady, which helps you decide what to do when, which
was just what I needed at 6mo pp, I'll drop in a few other things:

1. BFing time is me time (for reading ngs etc)
2. If I am sleep deprived, baby sleep time is Mummy rest time too.
3. The next priority after sleep is a shower and getting dressed.
4. You CAN work while the baby is awake. A baby does not require constant
in-her-face interaction. But they usually want to be able to see you and what
you are doing. Slings, rockers and playpens are good because they enable this
to happen!

> Evenings are a similar problem - if DH gets home at 5:30 or 6, things
> are pretty routine. He takes the dog and the baby for a walk if the
> weather's warm, if not, he plays with her while I get dinner made. We
> eat, then I clean up if she's being nice, but if she's fussy he cleans
> up while I nurse her, then we do a bath, story, nurse down, bed around
> 8 or 8:30. But if he gets home late, or if she's fussy (lately because
> she's teething) or whatever, it throws everything off, and some nights
> I don't get her nursed down until 10 pm or later (not for lack of
> trying - just because I'm nursing and nursing and she won't go to
> sleep).

I would be looking to see where the bottlenecks occur and trying to route
around them. For example, if she's BFing when you want to cook, you could
either nuke something from the freezer, get DH to cook, or have dinner cooked
earlier in the day. And yes, expect teething to knock everything for six.
Build in LOTS of slack! I tend to have one focus for teh day (and this is
another FLylady idea) -- MOnday is for groceries, Tuesday for other errands,
Wednesday is for my correspondence, etc.

> DH and I weren't really structured people prior to having her - we were
> kind of spontaneous. Not that we ever really did much, but we were
> sort of, "What time do you feel like eating dinner tonight?" "I don't
> know, not for an hour or two yet, let's watch TV instead..." sort of
> people. We didn't have dinner every night at 6:30 or anything. It's
> not really in our nature to be that way. So how do we start now that
> we have a kid? And what is an appropriate routine for a baby her age?

Actually, the routines aren't for the baby. They're for the FAMILY. The
reason you need to have dinner at a reasonable hour is so that you, the
parents, can get to bed at a reasonable hour. The reason you need to plan
dinner is so that the family is well-nourished, especially yourself. (When
you have a toddler you will realise exactly how important regular mealtimes
and adequate sleep are for maintenance of an attractive personality and the
ability to cope with change!)

> How can I have routines and still be flexible?

See Flylady!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.