Re: Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccine

[HCN]

> wrote in message
...
>I continuously hear controversy surrounding the MMR vaccine, and I have
> looked into the issue and the best that I can come up with is that the
> triple shot is safe for most kids, but some have problems with it. That
> is
> enough for me to caution on the side of safety, and I am considering
> getting
> single vaccine shots of measles, mumps and rubella for my infant. I am
> having a hard time finding anyone who carries the single shots. Can
> anyone
> offer and recomendations or advise as to how to go about getting single
> shots? Thanks.

Read this: http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm

The only reason there is controversy is because a lawyer paid a less than
honest doctor to come up with specific "research results". Because of that
there is now a serious mumps outbreak in the UK and a serious increase in
measles.

Also think about this: Starting when your child is about a year old you
have a choice of 1 MMR or 3 single shots ... and repeat when he/she is 5
years old. Hmmm... 2 jabs instead of 6? For no good reason.

[Engram]

> wrote in message
...
> thanks for the article. I had come to a personal conclusion that the MMR
> vaccine was probably safe for most kids. However, a new study out of New
> York School of Medicine and Wake Forest University has again suggested
> some
> type of link between mmr and autism ( see this link:
> http://www.news-medical.net/?id=18137 ). At this point, there seems to be
> flawed designs in just about every study that I have looked at concerning
> this issue, and although this newest study has yet to be published or peer
> reviewed, it suggests some relationship between mmr and autism. I believe
> the results were presented at a conference this week, but I have yet to
> hear
> any more about it.

Yes, there has been research showing possible links between the MMR and
autism, but as you say they have been flawed and there's no concrete proof
for the link (that I know of, if anyone knows better, please prove me
wrong).

One thing to keep in mind about the MMR is that the vaccine is grown in egg
(or the egg embryo) so if your child is allergic to eggs it is better for
the vaccine to be administered in hospital where any adverse reaction can be
monitored and dealt with, rather than in a general practitioner's surgery
where possible anaphylaxis cannot be dealt with. But that's if your child is
allergic to eggs.

[HCN]

> wrote in message
...
> thanks for the article. I had come to a personal conclusion that the MMR
> vaccine was probably safe for most kids. However, a new study out of New
> York School of Medicine and Wake Forest University has again suggested
> some
> type of link between mmr and autism ( see this link:
> http://www.news-medical.net/?id=18137 ). At this point, there seems to be
> flawed designs in just about every study that I have looked at concerning
> this issue, and although this newest study has yet to be published or peer
> reviewed, it suggests some relationship between mmr and autism. I believe
> the results were presented at a conference this week, but I have yet to
> hear
> any more about it.

The results that were presented were only a "poster presentation". They
have not been accepted to any peer reviewed journal, and the "investigators"
are trying to scam for more funding (yes, the word is "scam")... also the
folks promoting it are too closely related to the guy who is under
investigation in the UK for taking money from a lawyer for specific results.

Oh... and there was no control group.

Read this: http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=375

[Rebecca Jo]

"Engram" > wrote:

> One thing to keep in mind about the MMR is that the vaccine is grown in
> egg (or the egg embryo) so if your child is allergic to eggs it is better
> for the vaccine to be administered in hospital where any adverse reaction
> can be monitored and dealt with, rather than in a general practitioner's
> surgery where possible anaphylaxis cannot be dealt with. But that's if
> your child is allergic to eggs.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/faqs/mmr-faqs.htm#Safety

"Egg allergy is no longer considered a contraindication to MMR vaccine. In
the past, egg protein was believed to be responsible for rare anaphylactic
reactions following MMR vaccine. The concern now is that gelatin, which is
used as a stabilizer in MMR, may be the culprit. Measles and mumps vaccine
viruses are grown in chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture and don't
contain ovalbumin. Several studies have demonstrated the safety of MMR for
persons with egg allergies."

So they don't recommend any special precautions since it is very unlikely
for the child to have a reaction.

rj

[Michelle J. Haines]

wrote:
> thanks for the article. I had come to a personal conclusion that the MMR
> vaccine was probably safe for most kids. However, a new study out of New
> York School of Medicine and Wake Forest University has again suggested some
> type of link between mmr and autism ( see this link:
> http://www.news-medical.net/?id=18137 ). At this point, there seems to be
> flawed designs in just about every study that I have looked at concerning
> this issue, and although this newest study has yet to be published or peer
> reviewed, it suggests some relationship between mmr and autism. I believe
> the results were presented at a conference this week, but I have yet to hear
> any more about it.

Same problem as with Wakefield's study. They're only looking at
children they -know- to have autism. Not taking random samples from
normal and autistic children, anonymously labeling them, and sending
them to a lab to see which do and don't have measles in the gut.
There's not even a number in any of these studies saying how common
measles is in the normal population post-vaccination.

Michelle
Flutist

[HCN]

....

More info:
http://nhsblogdoc.blogspot.com/2006/06/measles-mmr-children-at-risk.html

[Engram]

"Rebecca Jo" > wrote in message
...
> http://www.cdc.gov/nip/faqs/mmr-faqs.htm#Safety
>
> "Egg allergy is no longer considered a contraindication to MMR vaccine. In
> the past, egg protein was believed to be responsible for rare anaphylactic
> reactions following MMR vaccine. The concern now is that gelatin, which is
> used as a stabilizer in MMR, may be the culprit. Measles and mumps vaccine
> viruses are grown in chick embryo fibroblast tissue culture and don't
> contain ovalbumin. Several studies have demonstrated the safety of MMR for
> persons with egg allergies."
>
> So they don't recommend any special precautions since it is very unlikely
> for the child to have a reaction.

OK... In that case the trip to hospital we're going to have to take with DS
is possibly for nothing... Oh, well.

[HCN]

> wrote in message
...
> There is not control group, so you can't infer causation. But just
> because
> you cannot infer causation does not preclude a causal relationship from
> existing. Give me a methodologically sound study on this issue that
> offers
> definitive answers, because I haven't seen one as of yet.

Exactly WHAT methodologically sound study are you basing YOUR opinion that
the MMR causes autism (and it better not be the one by Wakefield... since it
has been withdrawn and not replicated, not even by Krigsman nor Walker)?

http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Vaccines/noMMR.html

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/113/2/259

http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/88/8/666

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/110/5/957

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/reprint/325/7361/419.pdf

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/324/7334/393/DC1


To get the full text of the following papers will require that you go to a
library with a subscription to the journals (many universities and several
larger municipal libraries have access to the full papers):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15364187

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/347/19/1477

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/108/4/e58

[Michelle J. Haines]

wrote:
> There are a lot of people out there--I know of one personally--who believe
> (although anecdotally) that mmr has caused damage--regressive autism--in
> their children. I

There's a lot of people out there who think the Freemasons are
Satanists and rule the world, too.

Michelle
Flutist

[HCN]

> wrote in message
...
> There are a lot of people out there--I know of one personally--who believe
> (although anecdotally) that mmr has caused damage--regressive autism--in
> their children.

But there is no evidence nor science to support it....

and the following diatribe does show any real evidence....



> I don't claim to know if there is a true relationship

That is obvious.



(and
> I truly hope that there is not), but I am starting to err on the side of
> caution and believe that for some children, there is a relationship. That
> relationship may be very complex and multifaceted--we won't begin to
> understand this relationship as long as we keep fighting over whether the
> vaccine is safe or not. At this point, there is huge liability (in many
> ways, not just financial--the public trust will further be eroded in
> public
> health, government and medicine) if the vaccine is found to be unsafe
> (remember the polio vaccine fiasco). Let's face it, measles is a nasty
> thing and without a vaccine many will suffer/die. However, I am not
> willing
> accept the possibility that while vaccine may be good for the herd, it
> will
> hurt (in terrible ways) some. Why not look at why the attenuated virus of
> the vaccine occurs in children with autism who have had the MMR? For one,
> I
> would also look at for the presence of the virus in vaccinated vs
> unvaccinated children with autism and bowel problems, those with only
> bowel
> problems, those with only autism and healthy controls. This type of study
> should elicit relationships if they exist and serve as the basis for
> theory
> generation. Science is not about fighting, egos, politics, money, (am I
> being too idealistic?) etc. and this whole MMR controversy has slid into
> a
> polarized shouting match that unfortunately obfuscates what I believe are
> the real issues and precludes the possibility of finding meaningful
> answers.
> Wakefield is being vilified in the British Press, perhaps deservedly; but
> we must realize that flawed design or not (it is the only thing we have at
> this point) 2 other independent studies have generally supported
> Wakefield's
> claim.
>
> I remember hearing awhile back that the Japanese put of mandatory
> vaccination until age 2 and their autism rates dropped to baseline levels.
> Perhaps I am wrong here.

Yes you are... and I even gave the paper with their experience with the MMR
(it is different than either the UK or USA version) and autism. It was the
FIRST one on the list (which basically proves you did not click on any of
the actual science research links provided):
http://www.jr2.ox.ac.uk/bandolier/booth/Vaccines/noMMR.html

In the future start your research at www.pubmed.gov, not with "what you
hear".

[HCN]

> wrote in message
...
> perhaps these guys are quacks. I don't know.

Who?... you did not use any quotes to indicate what you are responding to.

But Bradstreet, Wakefield and Fudenberg are all quacks. And the owner of
the whale.to website, John Scudamore, is a net-loon.

[HCN]

"Michelle J. Haines" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> thanks for the article. I had come to a personal conclusion that the MMR
>> vaccine was probably safe for most kids. However, a new study out of
>> New
>> York School of Medicine and Wake Forest University has again suggested
>> some
>> type of link between mmr and autism ( see this link:
>> http://www.news-medical.net/?id=18137 ). At this point, there seems to
>> be
>> flawed designs in just about every study that I have looked at concerning
>> this issue, and although this newest study has yet to be published or
>> peer
>> reviewed, it suggests some relationship between mmr and autism. I
>> believe
>> the results were presented at a conference this week, but I have yet to
>> hear
>> any more about it.
>
> Same problem as with Wakefield's study. They're only looking at children
> they -know- to have autism.

AND the children were provided by the lawyer who was representing them in a
lawsuit!


Not taking random samples from
> normal and autistic children, anonymously labeling them, and sending them
> to a lab to see which do and don't have measles in the gut. There's not
> even a number in any of these studies saying how common measles is in the
> normal population post-vaccination.
>
> Michelle
> Flutist

[Mark Probert]

wrote:
> but there is no concrete proof that there isn't a link either.
> correlational research suggests that there is a relationship.

You will never find proof that there is no link other than
epidemiological research which shows that there is none.

> any idea on how to get single shots?

[Mark Probert]

wrote:
> There are a lot of people out there--I know of one personally--who believe
> (although anecdotally) that mmr has caused damage--regressive autism--in
> their children.

For those who claim that their kids suffer from "regressive autism" I
often ask them to prove that it exists.

I don't claim to know if there is a true relationship (and
> I truly hope that there is not), but I am starting to err on the side of
> caution and believe that for some children, there is a relationship. That
> relationship may be very complex and multifaceted--we won't begin to
> understand this relationship as long as we keep fighting over whether the
> vaccine is safe or not. At this point, there is huge liability (in many
> ways, not just financial--the public trust will further be eroded in public
> health, government and medicine) if the vaccine is found to be unsafe
> (remember the polio vaccine fiasco).

VERY poor analogy. The OPV was discontinued when it was determined that
the risks outweighed the benefits. Instead, the IPV was recommended as
it provides sufficient protection in most of the Western world. For
those going to areas where wild polio is still a massive problem, the
OPV is strongly suggested before departing.

Let's face it, measles is a nasty
> thing and without a vaccine many will suffer/die. However, I am not willing
> accept the possibility that while vaccine may be good for the herd, it will
> hurt (in terrible ways) some. Why not look at why the attenuated virus of
> the vaccine occurs in children with autism who have had the MMR? For one, I
> would also look at for the presence of the virus in vaccinated vs
> unvaccinated children with autism and bowel problems, those with only bowel
> problems, those with only autism and healthy controls. This type of study
> should elicit relationships if they exist and serve as the basis for theory
> generation. Science is not about fighting, egos, politics, money, (am I
> being too idealistic?) etc.

You are. In fact, ego is an important part of the scientific process.
One researcher finds 'X' and the rest of them goes to see if that
finding is valid...to knock the guy who found it.

and this whole MMR controversy has slid into a
> polarized shouting match that unfortunately obfuscates what I believe are
> the real issues and precludes the possibility of finding meaningful answers.
> Wakefield is being vilified in the British Press, perhaps deservedly; but
> we must realize that flawed design or not (it is the only thing we have at
> this point) 2 other independent studies have generally supported Wakefield's
> claim.
>
> I remember hearing awhile back that the Japanese put of mandatory
> vaccination until age 2 and their autism rates dropped to baseline levels.
> Perhaps I am wrong here.

You are.

[Mark Probert]

HCN wrote:
> > wrote in message
> ...
>> perhaps these guys are quacks. I don't know.
>
> Who?... you did not use any quotes to indicate what you are responding to.
>
> But Bradstreet, Wakefield and Fudenberg are all quacks. And the owner of
> the whale.to website, John Scudamore, is a net-loon.

he would be a loon without the net.

[HCN]

"Mark Probert" > wrote in message
...
> HCN wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> perhaps these guys are quacks. I don't know.
>>
>> Who?... you did not use any quotes to indicate what you are responding
>> to.
>>
>> But Bradstreet, Wakefield and Fudenberg are all quacks. And the owner of
>> the whale.to website, John Scudamore, is a net-loon.
>
> he would be a loon without the net.

Did you see his page on dealing with "black lines"?... pure comedy gold!

[[email protected]]

In misc.kids.pregnancy Michelle J. Haines > wrote:
: wrote:
:> There are a lot of people out there--I know of one personally--who believe
:> (although anecdotally) that mmr has caused damage--regressive autism--in
:> their children. I

: There's a lot of people out there who think the Freemasons are
: Satanists and rule the world, too.

: Michelle
: Flutist

Naaah, it's the Illuninati. And they are headed by the families of
the founders of all the big Eurpoean (and American) banks, and they
have members on the board of every major multinational corporation.
Further they choose the leader to be either elected or appointed for
most of the nations of the earth, and all the wars fought are solely
for the enrichment of this group of people.

Sheeh, I though everybody knew that! :-)

Now, sarcasm(?) aside, I thought your reposnse to yossarian's comment
out of context was quite unfair, and the possible research he suggested
would go a LONG way to answering the question in a more factual manner.

Larry

[Mark Probert]

HCN wrote:
> "Mark Probert" > wrote in message
> ...
>> HCN wrote:
>>> > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> perhaps these guys are quacks. I don't know.
>>> Who?... you did not use any quotes to indicate what you are responding
>>> to.
>>>
>>> But Bradstreet, Wakefield and Fudenberg are all quacks. And the owner of
>>> the whale.to website, John Scudamore, is a net-loon.
>> he would be a loon without the net.
>
> Did you see his page on dealing with "black lines"?... pure comedy gold!


I think he was born here:

http://tinyurl.com/q5ekx

[Michelle J. Haines]

wrote:
>
> Now, sarcasm(?) aside, I thought your reposnse to yossarian's comment
> out of context was quite unfair, and the possible research he suggested
> would go a LONG way to answering the question in a more factual manner.

I addressed that in other posts.

However, my point in this one is that "a lot of people" believe in all
kinds of stupid, nutty, crazy, odd-ball things that have not a shred
of proof behind them, and knowing them personally doesn't make that
any different. So saying, "A lot of people believe and I know one.."
is evidence of nothing at all.

Michelle
Flutist

[[email protected]]

In misc.kids.pregnancy Michelle J. Haines > wrote:
: wrote:
:>
:> Now, sarcasm(?) aside, I thought your reposnse to yossarian's comment
:> out of context was quite unfair, and the possible research he suggested
:> would go a LONG way to answering the question in a more factual manner.

: I addressed that in other posts.

: However, my point in this one is that "a lot of people" believe in all
: kinds of stupid, nutty, crazy, odd-ball things that have not a shred
: of proof behind them, and knowing them personally doesn't make that
: any different. So saying, "A lot of people believe and I know one.."
: is evidence of nothing at all.

: Michelle
: Flutist

Yes, but the illuminati thing is true! ;-)

Larry

[HCN]

"Mark Probert" > wrote in message
...
> HCN wrote:
>> "Mark Probert" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> HCN wrote:
>>>> > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> perhaps these guys are quacks. I don't know.
>>>> Who?... you did not use any quotes to indicate what you are responding
>>>> to.
>>>>
>>>> But Bradstreet, Wakefield and Fudenberg are all quacks. And the owner
>>>> of the whale.to website, John Scudamore, is a net-loon.
>>> he would be a loon without the net.
>>
>> Did you see his page on dealing with "black lines"?... pure comedy gold!
>
>
> I think he was born here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/q5ekx

Sometimes it does seem like he emerges out from under a large rock.