Good Grief!

[toto]

Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
(the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)

Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
I feel really sorry for her children.

http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[MoJo Werkin]

I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>
> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
> I feel really sorry for her children.
>
> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
> wrote:

>I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>
The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
humiliating children in this way?

As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly
commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk backward,’
or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’ Occasionally I’ll
throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or ‘No, you may not
have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some
reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’”

Would you deny a request for a child to go to the bathroom? She seems
gleeful about doing things to torture her children. Giving them
*silly commands* just to make them *obey?* This is what abusers do.


>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>
>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>> I feel really sorry for her children.
>>
>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dorothy
>>
>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>
>> The Outer Limits
>

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[0:->]

MoJo Werkin wrote:
> I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
> children and families -

In what way?

> won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??

Got one already, thanks. I am sure I don't want one like yours or this
Lisa Whelchel character.

But thanks for the offer.

0:->


>
> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>
>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>> I feel really sorry for her children.
>>
>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dorothy
>>
>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>
>> The Outer Limits
>
>


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[0:->]

MoJo Werkin wrote:
> I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
> children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??

Then you support the use of baby whipping devices and instructions?

http://www.stoptherod.net/


>
> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>
>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>> I feel really sorry for her children.
>>
>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dorothy
>>
>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>
>> The Outer Limits
>
>


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[Doan]

Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:

"Spanking Guidlines:
1. Never spank out of anger.
2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.
3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and reminds
him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
punished for his disobedience.
4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also reinforce
to your children that they are being heard.
...
9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
after that.
10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."

Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?

Doan


On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
> > wrote:
>
> >I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
> >children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
> >
> The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
> humiliating children in this way?
>
> As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly
> commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk backward,’
> or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’ Occasionally I’ll
> throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or ‘No, you may not
> have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some
> reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’”
>
> Would you deny a request for a child to go to the bathroom? She seems
> gleeful about doing things to torture her children. Giving them
> *silly commands* just to make them *obey?* This is what abusers do.
>
>
> >"toto" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
> >> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
> >>
> >> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
> >> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
> >> I feel really sorry for her children.
> >>
> >> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dorothy
> >>
> >> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> >> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> >>
> >> The Outer Limits
> >
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits
>

[MoJo Werkin]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
> > wrote:
>
>>I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>>children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>>
> The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
> humiliating children in this way?

I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about what books
I should or should not read.

I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about how I
should raise my children.

I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about spanking
is abuse when spanking is legal in all 50 states.

I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about how the
laws should be changed to fit *their* definition of CA/N.

Get the point. Mind yer business biddy.

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
> Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
> I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
> a site that I would waste much time neither.

What's the matter, Doan. Can't stand it that Christians don't march in
lockstep to the "beat the child" drum?

R R R R R

I guess the Lawrence's would not have approved of hanging children up
and beating their bodies with objects in church, eh?

But YOU did.

0:->

>
> Doan
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
>
>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>
>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>> I feel really sorry for her children.
>>
>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>
>>
>> --
>> Dorothy
>>
>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>
>> The Outer Limits
>>
>


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:
>
> "Spanking Guidlines:
> 1. Never spank out of anger.

Yes, children are much more impressed by cold, expressionless,
controlling beatings.

> 2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
> only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
> begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
> oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.

Leave them in anticipation of a beating. That's MUCH more effective.

> 3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
> is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and reminds
> him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
> punished for his disobedience.

Teach him to rationalize criminal assault. That's right. We don't have
enough violence in the world minimized or rationalized now.

> 4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
> the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
> and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also reinforce
> to your children that they are being heard.

But be sure to "punish."

> ...
> 9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
> five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
> after that.

And gone at age 18, right? BECAUSE THEN IT GOES BY THE CORRECT NAME:
"assault."

> 10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."

Won't confuse him a bit. No sir eeeeeee......
>
> Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?
>

Can't speak for Dorothy, but what do you think I'd say?

> Doan

You are so busy propagandizing for spanking, Doan, that you lose sight
of reality. You are sick. Get over yourself.

0:->
>
>
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>>> children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>>>
>> The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
>> humiliating children in this way?
>>
>> As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly
>> commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ?Walk backward,?
>> or ?Stop and touch your toes,? or ?Give me a kiss.? Occasionally I?ll
>> throw in a real command, like ?Don?t touch that,? or ?No, you may not
>> have an Icee.? My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some
>> reasonable request, like ?May I go to the bathroom???
>>
>> Would you deny a request for a child to go to the bathroom? She seems
>> gleeful about doing things to torture her children. Giving them
>> *silly commands* just to make them *obey?* This is what abusers do.
>>
>>
>>> "toto" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>>>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>>>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>>>> I feel really sorry for her children.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dorothy
>>>>
>>>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>>>
>>>> The Outer Limits
>> --
>> Dorothy
>>
>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>
>> The Outer Limits
>>
>


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[Doan]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:

> Doan wrote:
> > How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
> > Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
> > I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
> > a site that I would waste much time neither.
>
> What's the matter, Doan. Can't stand it that Christians don't march in
> lockstep to the "beat the child" drum?
>
No! I can't stand tasering children as young as SIX-YEAR OLDS either!

> R R R R R
>
Hihihi!

> I guess the Lawrence's would not have approved of hanging children up
> and beating their bodies with objects in church, eh?
>
I guess they approved of tasering kids too!

> But YOU did.
>
And you lied!

AF

> 0:->
>
> >
> > Doan
> >
> >
> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
> >
> >> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
> >> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
> >>
> >> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
> >> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
> >> I feel really sorry for her children.
> >>
> >> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dorothy
> >>
> >> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> >> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> >>
> >> The Outer Limits
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
> to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
> contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
>

[Carlson LaVonne]

Amanda wrote:
> Doan wrote:
>
>
>>Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:
>>
>>"Spanking Guidlines:
>
>
> To me it's simply shocking that someone sets guidelines for something
> like spanking.

To me, as well. "Guidelines for how to hit and hurt little children."
Now that's "good grief!"
>
>
>>1. Never spank out of anger.
>
> Though I think it's always completely wrong, I can understand someone
> spanks a child out of anger. Like something you do when you loose
> control of yourself. But spanking a child calmly, coldly, cool, to me
> is just terrifying. YYou have to be somewhat like a torturer. I dont
> say parents who do it are torturers, but to me it's something
> unthinkable

While loosing control and spanking out of anger is completely wrong, to
me it is much easier to understand an adult loosing control that it is
for me to understand calmly and deliberately raising one's hand and
striking the body of a little child in the name of correction. And
since little children don't have a great deal of impulse control, I
suspect it's easier for them to understand as well.
>
>
>>2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
>> only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
>> begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
>> oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.
>
>
> I cant understand how a parent can act like that

Parents who act like that have few other options and believe parenting
is about power rather than love and teaching.
>
>
>>3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
>> is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and reminds
>> him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
>> punished for his disobedience.
>
>
> Punishing a child is sometimes necessary, but punishments don't have to
> be cruel. You dont have to spank. To me, it'll always be a burden to
> punish my kids.

Actually, I'm not sure punishment is ever necessary. The only time I
ever punished was when I mistakenly misused a logical consequence. Once
I realized my girls didn't understand the consequence and viewed it as
punishment, I apologized and no longer used the consequence.
>
>
>>4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
>> the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
>> and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also reinforce
>> to your children that they are being heard.
>
>
> Spanking should never, ever, be considered. It's OK to change your
> mind if that's the case. Anyway, parents should hear their children
> before giving any punishment.

I agree. Changing one's mind is fine, and parents should always listen
to their children, and they should explain their reasons for their
expectations. Spanking is never a consideration.
>
>
>>...
>>9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
>> five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
>> after that.
>
>
>>10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."
>
>
> I guess this can make things even worse

Yes. It sends the message that hitting is a way to communicate, to
solve problems, to express anger, frustration, and displeasure, and to
force others to comply. And the hug says this is especially true for
those you love. No wonder victims and perpetrators of domestic abuse
are far more likely than not to have been victims of this type of
"parental love" as children.
>
>
>
>>Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?
>
>
> To me, that definetely does.

Does to me as well.

LaVonne
>
> Amanda
>
>
>>Doan
>>
>>
>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>>>>children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>>>>
>>>
>>>The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
>>>humiliating children in this way?
>>>
>>>As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly
>>>commands that they must obey without arguing, such as 'Walk backward,'
>>>or 'Stop and touch your toes,' or 'Give me a kiss.' Occasionally I'll
>>>throw in a real command, like 'Don't touch that,' or 'No, you may not
>>>have an Icee.' My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some
>>>reasonable request, like 'May I go to the bathroom?'"
>>>
>>>Would you deny a request for a child to go to the bathroom? She seems
>>>gleeful about doing things to torture her children. Giving them
>>>*silly commands* just to make them *obey?* This is what abusers do.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>>>Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>>>>>(the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>>>>
>>>>>Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>>>>>children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>>>>>I feel really sorry for her children.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Dorothy
>>>>>
>>>>>There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>>>>that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>>>>
>>>>>The Outer Limits
>>>>
>>>--
>>>Dorothy
>>>
>>>There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>>that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>>
>>>The Outer Limits
>>>
>
>

[Carlson LaVonne]

She also recommends "hot saucing," -- putting hot sauce on children's
tongues. This has resulted in severe burns, injury, and choking. Her
book is not just bizarre -- Lisa Whelchel recommends and practices child
abuse. Even Tobasco published a disclaimer stating that hot sauce
should not be used in this manner.

There is no end to the creative ways one can come up with to hurt,
damage, shame, and humiliate children.

LaVonne

toto wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>>children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>>
>
> The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
> humiliating children in this way?
>
> As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly
> commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk backward,’
> or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’ Occasionally I’ll
> throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or ‘No, you may not
> have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some
> reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’”
>
> Would you deny a request for a child to go to the bathroom? She seems
> gleeful about doing things to torture her children. Giving them
> *silly commands* just to make them *obey?* This is what abusers do.
>
>
>
>>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>>>(the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>>
>>>Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>>>children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>>>I feel really sorry for her children.
>>>
>>>http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>>
>>>
>>>--
>>>Dorothy
>>>
>>>There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>>that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>>
>>>The Outer Limits
>>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

[Carlson LaVonne]

MoJo Werkin wrote:

> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>>>children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>>>
>>
>>The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
>>humiliating children in this way?
>
>
> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about what books
> I should or should not read.

I don't think anyone talked about censoring your reading. The content
of Lisa Whelchel's book is what is being criticized. It is hard to
criticize a book without reading it. I read it, and it is absolutely
horrendous.
>
> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about how I
> should raise my children.

I don't. Children aren't your possessions. Children need parenting
that teaches love and respect, that instills a strong sense of inner
self and values, and that never, ever, for any reason, hurts or
humiliates. And, you cross the inadequate line into what is identified
as legal abuse, and you will see how many individuals are involved in
how you raise your children.
>
> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about spanking
> is abuse when spanking is legal in all 50 states.

Spanking is assault and battery -- it just isn't yet legally recognized
as such. There was a time not that long ago when some men were offended
that "others ran around cackling about assaulting and raping wives" when
assault or rape of a wife was not legally recognized. Laws can change,
and they have. The law that allows children to be legally physically
assaulted in the name of discipline will, in time, change as well.
>
> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about how the
> laws should be changed to fit *their* definition of CA/N.

Laws change. Laws are not static. If they were, slavery would still
exist, women would not be permitted to own property, would be considered
property of their husbands, and husbands would be able to legally
physically assault and rape their wives.

>
> Get the point. Mind yer business biddy.

Children are everyone's business, and so is justice and equality.
That's the beauty of a democratic society.

LaVonne

>
>

[Carlson LaVonne]

0:-> wrote:

> Doan wrote:
>
>> Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:
>>
>> "Spanking Guidlines:
>> 1. Never spank out of anger.
>
>
> Yes, children are much more impressed by cold, expressionless,
> controlling beatings.

They are. Loosing control and striking out in anger is far more
understandable to a child.
>
>> 2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
>> only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
>> begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
>> oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.
>
>
> Leave them in anticipation of a beating. That's MUCH more effective.

It's called "control through fear." Isn't that a torture strategy?
>
>> 3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
>> is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and
>> reminds
>> him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
>> punished for his disobedience.
>
>
> Teach him to rationalize criminal assault. That's right. We don't have
> enough violence in the world minimized or rationalized now.

Perhaps it's called maintaining the status quo? Continue to teach the
child to rationalize assault!
>
>> 4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
>> the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
>> and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also
>> reinforce
>> to your children that they are being heard.
>
>
> But be sure to "punish."

Only have hearing them out, though. Once you hear their side of the
issue you still must punish, may just not physically assault!
>
>> ...
>> 9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
>> five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
>> after that.
>
>
> And gone at age 18, right? BECAUSE THEN IT GOES BY THE CORRECT NAME:
> "assault."

It diminishes even before 18, because teens are often as big or bigger
and stronger than the parent who is doing the assault.
>
>> 10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."
>
>
> Won't confuse him a bit. No sir eeeeeee......

Actually it doesn't confuse the child at all. It simply says to the
child, "When someone displeases you or makes you angry, solve the
problem with physical assault. This is especially true if the
individual is someone you love. Hug later, and maybe send flowers. Now
you know how to be a perpetrator and a victim of domestic assault when
you grow older." No confusion here!
>
>>
>> Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?
>>
>
> Can't speak for Dorothy, but what do you think I'd say?

Of course it's abuse!

LaVonne
>
>> Doan
>
>
> You are so busy propagandizing for spanking, Doan, that you lose sight
> of reality. You are sick. Get over yourself.
>
> 0:->
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is
>>>> detrimental to
>>>> children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>>>>
>>> The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
>>> humiliating children in this way?
>>>
>>> As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them silly
>>> commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ?Walk backward,?
>>> or ?Stop and touch your toes,? or ?Give me a kiss.? Occasionally I?ll
>>> throw in a real command, like ?Don?t touch that,? or ?No, you may not
>>> have an Icee.? My favorite curve, however, is to say no to some
>>> reasonable request, like ?May I go to the bathroom???
>>>
>>> Would you deny a request for a child to go to the bathroom? She seems
>>> gleeful about doing things to torture her children. Giving them
>>> *silly commands* just to make them *obey?* This is what abusers do.
>>>
>>>
>>>> "toto" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>>>>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>>>>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>>>>> I feel really sorry for her children.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Dorothy
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>>>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>>>>
>>>>> The Outer Limits
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dorothy
>>>
>>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>>
>>> The Outer Limits
>>>
>>
>
>

[toto]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:29:40 -0700, Doan > wrote:

>
>Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:
>
>"Spanking Guidlines:
>1. Never spank out of anger.

>2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
> only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
> begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
> oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.


>3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
> is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and reminds
> him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
> punished for his disobedience.


>4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
> the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
> and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also reinforce
> to your children that they are being heard.
>...


What happened to 5,6,7 and 8?

5. Ask your child to lean over, stand up, lie down, however it works
best. The main purpose is to avoid wrestling with your child. She
needs to willingly submit to punishment. For example at our house,
Clancy prefers to stand up and lean both hands against the wall, while
Haven would rather bend over my lap.

Where is it written that anyone should *willingly submit to
punishment?* Unless your object is to break a child's spirit, why
would this be a requirement.

6. Where to spank: Steve and I spank on the bottom --- but never the
bare bottom --- because it has the most padding. Sometimes, if the
hand is the offender (i.e. hitting, pinching, throwing rocks, etc.),
we'll spank the palm.

This one is weird. Spank on the bottom but not the bare bottom
because it won't hurt as much? I don't get it at all. As for
spanking the palm for hitting, well, it teaches that if someone is
bigger than you, they can hit you. Her kids will probably continue
her *tradition* but that's not a good thing.

7. As children get older, it may be prudent to have dads administer
spankings to sons and moms to daughters.

I think she is acknowledging the sexual implications of such spankings
here. And not only that, but she is acknowledging that she still
spanks as children get older. If the spankings worked, then
supposedly they would be done by the time the child was old enough to
have those implications.

8. The number of times: The number of spanks we give corresponds to a
child's current age. This makes birthdays bittersweet, but it works
for us.

I think this is an acknowledgement that her kids certainly don't think
an increase in the number of spanks because they are a year older is
particularly logical. Certainly I see no logic in this at all.

>9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
> five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
> after that.

That's why Tucker is described in the book as a *sinner*

>10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."

11. Have your child ask for God's forgiveness through prayer. This
will help her grasp the concept that God is, the one to whom she is
ulrimately responsible. I sometimes pray, too, if I feel that I still
need to address the issue.

p.265 Sample prayer for a child “Dear God, Thank you that my parents
love me and that because they love me, they correct me when I sin.
Thank you that the spankings drive out the foolishness in my heart.”

Lovely, make children so submissive that they thank you for things
that hurt them physically. This is definitely emotional abuse.

12. Finally, forget about it. God has forgiven your child, so move
on.

This one is ok, but does she really do it?

Oh and, she knows darn well that she should not be doing this. Look
at what she says about spanking in public.

"I caution against spanking in public. If you must go to the public
restroom and wait until it is empty, or better yet, head to the car.
Once, in desperation, I hopped on the elevator and waited until
everyone got off -- then gave Haven a quick swat between floors."

"Steve and I also hesitate to spank our children when guests or
service people are in our home. You never know how they might feel
about corporal punishment or whether they think it's their duty to
inform the authorities. Perhaps you can keep a little *tally sheet,*
if necessary, and correct your child later, after the company leaves."

>
>Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?
>
Yes, considering the emotional abuse that goes along with it.

From her website:
Toddler independence? If your little one balks at holding your hand
while in a parking lot or crossing the street, give him a choice.
Remind him, "I can either hold your hand or hold your hair."
Independence isn't quite so appealing on those terms.

Great way to *encourage* a toddler to be independent. Yeah, right.
Totally unnecessary as well. Remember too that she says in her book
that you *must* be prepared to follow through on these threats so if
her toddler didn't hold her hand, she would be grabbing him or her by
the hair and dragging them across the street.

p.137 “One effective correction is to rescind the privilege of playing
with friends. Unfortunately, this punishes the friends, too…for
example, last month, Tucker lost the privilege of playing with his
friend Josiah after school because he told the baby-sitter no when she
ordered him to his room. This upset Josiah terribly, because he had
been waiting all week for this day.”

Oh, good, punish your child's friend when he acts up.

p.138 “As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them
silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk
backward,’ or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’
Occasionally I’ll throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or
‘No, you may not have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say
no to some reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’”

Do you approve of giving commands just to see kids jump? Do you
approve of saying no to reasonable requests like going to the
bathroom?

How are kids ever going to learn to respect authority if their parents
are arbitrary and ridiculous and deliberately cause them pain or
discomfort for no rational reason. (refusing to let a child go to the
bathroom for no good reason?) I wouldn't train my dog that way.

p.143-144 “Having a struggle at bedtime? Try this: Next time you’re
dealing with the usual bathroom trips, cups of water, giggling, and
talking, call off bedtime. Declare, ‘Nobody has to go to bed tonight!’
Inform them that they may stay up as long as they like—the operative
words being stay up. Then have each child stand still in the middle of
a separate room of the house.”

It seems to me this one has been used on military prisoners. Deprive
someone of sleep and you cause disorientation and make them obedient
to your whims.

p.171 “As I hinted in the first chapter, the whole catalyst for this
book—fueling my need for creative correction—came when my son was
about six or seven years old. Suddenly, spankings, so effective in the
past, just didn’t work on him anymore. They actually made things
worse. It didn’t matter how calmly and lovingly I administered the
spanking; it would send Tucker even further out of control, and we
would both end up crying.”

Interesting that her older son became *more* violent at 6 after years
of her spanking technique. Very telling, imo, about what spanking
taught him.

p.203 “Require the two siblings to go ‘toe to toe.’ Have each child
face the other with their toes touching; they must remain that way
until they’re no longer angry.” “Use a pair of toy handcuffs to join
two siblings who can’t seem to get along. It’s really fun to watch
them try to eat dinner like this, or read a book, or take the garbage
out, tasks I’ll often assign them.” “Hugs, even forced ones, are good
at breaking down barriers.” “Make each child stand at opposite ends of
the yard. Then have them yell ‘I love you!’ back and forth 20 times.”

p.208 “Got any old hand or ankle weights in the garage? Have your
child wear them around his ankles or carry them around for the day as
punishment for being a bad example to a younger sibling.”
p.209 “Tie the arguing siblings’ ankles together as though they’re in
a three-legged race, and don’t let them part until the issue is
resolved or dropped.”

Lovely. Kids should be facilitated in talking out their problems and
resolving them, but forcing them like this has to create resentment.


She gets way too much pleasure ouf of watching her children *obey*
in stupid ways.

More *creative corrections* here:

http://www.stoptherod.net/creative-correction-pp146-161.html



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 17:55:38 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
> wrote:

>I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about what books
>I should or should not read.

I didn't say you should not read it.

I did say that you should not abuse your child in this way.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:56:06 -0700, "0:->" >
wrote:

>MoJo Werkin wrote:
>> I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>> children and families -
>
>In what way?

Btw, the *stuff* published is pages from her book that were scanned.
If the stuff on the site is detrimental, then he must mean that the
book itself is detrimental.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:58:01 -0700, Doan > wrote:

>How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
>Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
>I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
>a site that I would waste much time neither.
>
Did you read the quotes that were linked to:

They were scanned pages from her book.

Yes, she is just another celebrity, but she wrote a discipline book
that is recommended to people by Focus on the Family and her book
advocates methods that are abusive.

>Doan


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[0:->]

MoJo Werkin wrote:
> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 12:05:41 GMT, "MoJo Werkin"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the tripe published on this *stoptherod* site is detrimental to
>>> children and families - won't you koo-koo's ever get a life ??
>>>
>> The excerpts are directly from her book. Do you approve of
>> humiliating children in this way?
>
> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about what books
> I should or should not read.

No one told you to read or not to read this. Not with any authority. You
can refuse to read it or read it at your pleasure.

You have a problem with reality, Michael. You should get that fixed.

> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about how I
> should raise my children.

Too bad. I think it's fascist of you to try and tell anyone they aren't
free to fully express themselves as per the First Amendment to the
Constitution.

> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about spanking
> is abuse when spanking is legal in all 50 states.

Not in many schools it's not. 0:-> Is that fascist?

> I think it's rather fascist that others run around cackling about how the
> laws should be changed to fit *their* definition of CA/N.

I think it's rather fascist to insist that doing to an adult what is
done to a child legally is ILLEGAL.

> Get the point. Mind yer business biddy.

Get the point? Yer sick little buddy.

0:->




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:
>
>> Doan wrote:
>>> How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
>>> Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
>>> I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
>>> a site that I would waste much time neither.
>> What's the matter, Doan. Can't stand it that Christians don't march in
>> lockstep to the "beat the child" drum?
>>
> No! I can't stand tasering children as young as SIX-YEAR OLDS either!

So you'd just let him saw away, as he had already cut himself a couple
of times, with the edge of a piece of broken glass until he got to a
major artery? You are sick, little boy.

You, of course, being a stupid monkey would jump right in there, try to
grab him and get him cut worse, wouldn't you stupid?
>
>> R R R R R
>>
> Hihihi!
>
>> I guess the Lawrence's would not have approved of hanging children up
>> and beating their bodies with objects in church, eh?
>>
> I guess they approved of tasering kids too!

My guess is that if the child's life was in danger, they just might. But
I can't say.
>
>> But YOU did.
>>
> And you lied!

Nope. You claimed you were against beating of children. And you made it
plain that you would protest it.

Yet, you let Fern go on and on promoting it.

Any thoughts stupid?
>
> AF

DDT


>
>> 0:->
>>
>>> Doan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
>>>
>>>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>>>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>>>
>>>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>>>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>>>> I feel really sorry for her children.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Dorothy
>>>>
>>>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>>>
>>>> The Outer Limits
>>>>
>>
>> --
>> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
>> to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
>> contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
>>
>


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[Doan]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, toto wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:29:40 -0700, Doan > wrote:
>
> >
> >Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:
> >
> >"Spanking Guidlines:
> >1. Never spank out of anger.
>
> >2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
> > only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
> > begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
> > oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.
>
>
> >3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
> > is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and reminds
> > him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
> > punished for his disobedience.
>
>
> >4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
> > the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
> > and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also reinforce
> > to your children that they are being heard.
> >...
>
>
> What happened to 5,6,7 and 8?
>
> 5. Ask your child to lean over, stand up, lie down, however it works
> best. The main purpose is to avoid wrestling with your child. She
> needs to willingly submit to punishment. For example at our house,
> Clancy prefers to stand up and lean both hands against the wall, while
> Haven would rather bend over my lap.
>
> Where is it written that anyone should *willingly submit to
> punishment?* Unless your object is to break a child's spirit, why
> would this be a requirement.
>
> 6. Where to spank: Steve and I spank on the bottom --- but never the
> bare bottom --- because it has the most padding. Sometimes, if the
> hand is the offender (i.e. hitting, pinching, throwing rocks, etc.),
> we'll spank the palm.
>
> This one is weird. Spank on the bottom but not the bare bottom
> because it won't hurt as much? I don't get it at all. As for
> spanking the palm for hitting, well, it teaches that if someone is
> bigger than you, they can hit you. Her kids will probably continue
> her *tradition* but that's not a good thing.
>
> 7. As children get older, it may be prudent to have dads administer
> spankings to sons and moms to daughters.
>
> I think she is acknowledging the sexual implications of such spankings
> here. And not only that, but she is acknowledging that she still
> spanks as children get older. If the spankings worked, then
> supposedly they would be done by the time the child was old enough to
> have those implications.
>
> 8. The number of times: The number of spanks we give corresponds to a
> child's current age. This makes birthdays bittersweet, but it works
> for us.
>
> I think this is an acknowledgement that her kids certainly don't think
> an increase in the number of spanks because they are a year older is
> particularly logical. Certainly I see no logic in this at all.
>
> >9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
> > five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
> > after that.
>
> That's why Tucker is described in the book as a *sinner*
>
> >10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."
>
> 11. Have your child ask for God's forgiveness through prayer. This
> will help her grasp the concept that God is, the one to whom she is
> ulrimately responsible. I sometimes pray, too, if I feel that I still
> need to address the issue.
>
> p.265 Sample prayer for a child “Dear God, Thank you that my parents
> love me and that because they love me, they correct me when I sin.
> Thank you that the spankings drive out the foolishness in my heart.”
>
> Lovely, make children so submissive that they thank you for things
> that hurt them physically. This is definitely emotional abuse.
>
> 12. Finally, forget about it. God has forgiven your child, so move
> on.
>
> This one is ok, but does she really do it?
>
> Oh and, she knows darn well that she should not be doing this. Look
> at what she says about spanking in public.
>
> "I caution against spanking in public. If you must go to the public
> restroom and wait until it is empty, or better yet, head to the car.
> Once, in desperation, I hopped on the elevator and waited until
> everyone got off -- then gave Haven a quick swat between floors."
>
> "Steve and I also hesitate to spank our children when guests or
> service people are in our home. You never know how they might feel
> about corporal punishment or whether they think it's their duty to
> inform the authorities. Perhaps you can keep a little *tally sheet,*
> if necessary, and correct your child later, after the company leaves."
>
> >
> >Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?
> >
> Yes, considering the emotional abuse that goes along with it.
>
> From her website:
> Toddler independence? If your little one balks at holding your hand
> while in a parking lot or crossing the street, give him a choice.
> Remind him, "I can either hold your hand or hold your hair."
> Independence isn't quite so appealing on those terms.
>
> Great way to *encourage* a toddler to be independent. Yeah, right.
> Totally unnecessary as well. Remember too that she says in her book
> that you *must* be prepared to follow through on these threats so if
> her toddler didn't hold her hand, she would be grabbing him or her by
> the hair and dragging them across the street.
>
> p.137 “One effective correction is to rescind the privilege of playing
> with friends. Unfortunately, this punishes the friends, too…for
> example, last month, Tucker lost the privilege of playing with his
> friend Josiah after school because he told the baby-sitter no when she
> ordered him to his room. This upset Josiah terribly, because he had
> been waiting all week for this day.”
>
> Oh, good, punish your child's friend when he acts up.
>
> p.138 “As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them
> silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as ‘Walk
> backward,’ or ‘Stop and touch your toes,’ or ‘Give me a kiss.’
> Occasionally I’ll throw in a real command, like ‘Don’t touch that,’ or
> ‘No, you may not have an Icee.’ My favorite curve, however, is to say
> no to some reasonable request, like ‘May I go to the bathroom?’”
>
> Do you approve of giving commands just to see kids jump? Do you
> approve of saying no to reasonable requests like going to the
> bathroom?
>
> How are kids ever going to learn to respect authority if their parents
> are arbitrary and ridiculous and deliberately cause them pain or
> discomfort for no rational reason. (refusing to let a child go to the
> bathroom for no good reason?) I wouldn't train my dog that way.
>
> p.143-144 “Having a struggle at bedtime? Try this: Next time you’re
> dealing with the usual bathroom trips, cups of water, giggling, and
> talking, call off bedtime. Declare, ‘Nobody has to go to bed tonight!’
> Inform them that they may stay up as long as they like—the operative
> words being stay up. Then have each child stand still in the middle of
> a separate room of the house.”
>
> It seems to me this one has been used on military prisoners. Deprive
> someone of sleep and you cause disorientation and make them obedient
> to your whims.
>
> p.171 “As I hinted in the first chapter, the whole catalyst for this
> book—fueling my need for creative correction—came when my son was
> about six or seven years old. Suddenly, spankings, so effective in the
> past, just didn’t work on him anymore. They actually made things
> worse. It didn’t matter how calmly and lovingly I administered the
> spanking; it would send Tucker even further out of control, and we
> would both end up crying.”
>
> Interesting that her older son became *more* violent at 6 after years
> of her spanking technique. Very telling, imo, about what spanking
> taught him.
>
> p.203 “Require the two siblings to go ‘toe to toe.’ Have each child
> face the other with their toes touching; they must remain that way
> until they’re no longer angry.” “Use a pair of toy handcuffs to join
> two siblings who can’t seem to get along. It’s really fun to watch
> them try to eat dinner like this, or read a book, or take the garbage
> out, tasks I’ll often assign them.” “Hugs, even forced ones, are good
> at breaking down barriers.” “Make each child stand at opposite ends of
> the yard. Then have them yell ‘I love you!’ back and forth 20 times.”
>
> p.208 “Got any old hand or ankle weights in the garage? Have your
> child wear them around his ankles or carry them around for the day as
> punishment for being a bad example to a younger sibling.”
> p.209 “Tie the arguing siblings’ ankles together as though they’re in
> a three-legged race, and don’t let them part until the issue is
> resolved or dropped.”
>
> Lovely. Kids should be facilitated in talking out their problems and
> resolving them, but forcing them like this has to create resentment.
>
>
> She gets way too much pleasure ouf of watching her children *obey*
> in stupid ways.
>
> More *creative corrections* here:
>
> http://www.stoptherod.net/creative-correction-pp146-161.html
>
>
You may not agree with her methods but I see nothing that rises to
the level of abusive that would require removing her kids. If you
don't agree with her, don't buy her book! Why are you giving her
free advertising. Like I said, she is just another celebrity!

Doan

[Doan]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, toto wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:58:01 -0700, Doan > wrote:
>
> >How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
> >Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
> >I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
> >a site that I would waste much time neither.
> >
> Did you read the quotes that were linked to:
>
> They were scanned pages from her book.
>
Yes. I see nothing that would require removing her kids from her.
I don't want to see kids taking away from their parents, unless it is
really necessary.

> Yes, she is just another celebrity, but she wrote a discipline book
> that is recommended to people by Focus on the Family and her book
> advocates methods that are abusive.
>
And removing kids from their parents is not abusive?

Doan

[Doan]

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:

> Doan wrote:
> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:
> >
> >> Doan wrote:
> >>> How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
> >>> Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
> >>> I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
> >>> a site that I would waste much time neither.
> >> What's the matter, Doan. Can't stand it that Christians don't march in
> >> lockstep to the "beat the child" drum?
> >>
> > No! I can't stand tasering children as young as SIX-YEAR OLDS either!
>
> So you'd just let him saw away, as he had already cut himself a couple
> of times, with the edge of a piece of broken glass until he got to a
> major artery? You are sick, little boy.
>
> You, of course, being a stupid monkey would jump right in there, try to
> grab him and get him cut worse, wouldn't you stupid?

Hihihi! Is that the only alternative you can think of, stupid?

> >
> >> R R R R R
> >>
> > Hihihi!
> >
> >> I guess the Lawrence's would not have approved of hanging children up
> >> and beating their bodies with objects in church, eh?
> >>
> > I guess they approved of tasering kids too!
>
> My guess is that if the child's life was in danger, they just might. But
> I can't say.

I see, so you have no problem of tasering your own kids, right?

> >
> >> But YOU did.
> >>
> > And you lied!
>
> Nope. You claimed you were against beating of children. And you made it
> plain that you would protest it.
>
> Yet, you let Fern go on and on promoting it.
>
Huh? What does it have to do with me? I made no comment one way or
another. Strange logic!

> Any thoughts stupid?

Yup! In debating, if you have to resort to calling other people with dirty
words like "smelly-****", you have already lost the debate. Worse,
telling everybody that your mom approved of you calling other people
"smelly-****" showed the kind of education that you and your mom received.
Got it? ;-)

AF

> >
> > AF
>
> DDT
>
>
> >
> >> 0:->
> >>
> >>> Doan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
> >>>> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
> >>>>
> >>>> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
> >>>> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
> >>>> I feel really sorry for her children.
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Dorothy
> >>>>
> >>>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> >>>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> >>>>
> >>>> The Outer Limits
> >>>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
> >> to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
> >> contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
> >>
> >
>
>
> --
> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
> to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
> contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
>

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:29:40 -0700, Doan > wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:
>>>
>>> "Spanking Guidlines:
>>> 1. Never spank out of anger.
>>> 2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
>>> only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
>>> begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
>>> oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.
>>
>>> 3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
>>> is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and reminds
>>> him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
>>> punished for his disobedience.
>>
>>> 4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
>>> the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
>>> and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also reinforce
>>> to your children that they are being heard.
>>> ...
>>
>> What happened to 5,6,7 and 8?
>>
>> 5. Ask your child to lean over, stand up, lie down, however it works
>> best. The main purpose is to avoid wrestling with your child. She
>> needs to willingly submit to punishment. For example at our house,
>> Clancy prefers to stand up and lean both hands against the wall, while
>> Haven would rather bend over my lap.
>>
>> Where is it written that anyone should *willingly submit to
>> punishment?* Unless your object is to break a child's spirit, why
>> would this be a requirement.
>>
>> 6. Where to spank: Steve and I spank on the bottom --- but never the
>> bare bottom --- because it has the most padding. Sometimes, if the
>> hand is the offender (i.e. hitting, pinching, throwing rocks, etc.),
>> we'll spank the palm.
>>
>> This one is weird. Spank on the bottom but not the bare bottom
>> because it won't hurt as much? I don't get it at all. As for
>> spanking the palm for hitting, well, it teaches that if someone is
>> bigger than you, they can hit you. Her kids will probably continue
>> her *tradition* but that's not a good thing.
>>
>> 7. As children get older, it may be prudent to have dads administer
>> spankings to sons and moms to daughters.
>>
>> I think she is acknowledging the sexual implications of such spankings
>> here. And not only that, but she is acknowledging that she still
>> spanks as children get older. If the spankings worked, then
>> supposedly they would be done by the time the child was old enough to
>> have those implications.
>>
>> 8. The number of times: The number of spanks we give corresponds to a
>> child's current age. This makes birthdays bittersweet, but it works
>> for us.
>>
>> I think this is an acknowledgement that her kids certainly don't think
>> an increase in the number of spanks because they are a year older is
>> particularly logical. Certainly I see no logic in this at all.
>>
>>> 9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
>>> five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
>>> after that.
>> That's why Tucker is described in the book as a *sinner*
>>
>>> 10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."
>> 11. Have your child ask for God's forgiveness through prayer. This
>> will help her grasp the concept that God is, the one to whom she is
>> ulrimately responsible. I sometimes pray, too, if I feel that I still
>> need to address the issue.
>>
>> p.265 Sample prayer for a child �Dear God, Thank you that my parents
>> love me and that because they love me, they correct me when I sin.
>> Thank you that the spankings drive out the foolishness in my heart.�
>>
>> Lovely, make children so submissive that they thank you for things
>> that hurt them physically. This is definitely emotional abuse.
>>
>> 12. Finally, forget about it. God has forgiven your child, so move
>> on.
>>
>> This one is ok, but does she really do it?
>>
>> Oh and, she knows darn well that she should not be doing this. Look
>> at what she says about spanking in public.
>>
>> "I caution against spanking in public. If you must go to the public
>> restroom and wait until it is empty, or better yet, head to the car.
>> Once, in desperation, I hopped on the elevator and waited until
>> everyone got off -- then gave Haven a quick swat between floors."
>>
>> "Steve and I also hesitate to spank our children when guests or
>> service people are in our home. You never know how they might feel
>> about corporal punishment or whether they think it's their duty to
>> inform the authorities. Perhaps you can keep a little *tally sheet,*
>> if necessary, and correct your child later, after the company leaves."
>>
>>> Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?
>>>
>> Yes, considering the emotional abuse that goes along with it.
>>
>> From her website:
>> Toddler independence? If your little one balks at holding your hand
>> while in a parking lot or crossing the street, give him a choice.
>> Remind him, "I can either hold your hand or hold your hair."
>> Independence isn't quite so appealing on those terms.
>>
>> Great way to *encourage* a toddler to be independent. Yeah, right.
>> Totally unnecessary as well. Remember too that she says in her book
>> that you *must* be prepared to follow through on these threats so if
>> her toddler didn't hold her hand, she would be grabbing him or her by
>> the hair and dragging them across the street.
>>
>> p.137 �One effective correction is to rescind the privilege of playing
>> with friends. Unfortunately, this punishes the friends, too�for
>> example, last month, Tucker lost the privilege of playing with his
>> friend Josiah after school because he told the baby-sitter no when she
>> ordered him to his room. This upset Josiah terribly, because he had
>> been waiting all week for this day.�
>>
>> Oh, good, punish your child's friend when he acts up.
>>
>> p.138 �As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them
>> silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as �Walk
>> backward,� or �Stop and touch your toes,� or �Give me a kiss.�
>> Occasionally I�ll throw in a real command, like �Don�t touch that,� or
>> �No, you may not have an Icee.� My favorite curve, however, is to say
>> no to some reasonable request, like �May I go to the bathroom?��
>>
>> Do you approve of giving commands just to see kids jump? Do you
>> approve of saying no to reasonable requests like going to the
>> bathroom?
>>
>> How are kids ever going to learn to respect authority if their parents
>> are arbitrary and ridiculous and deliberately cause them pain or
>> discomfort for no rational reason. (refusing to let a child go to the
>> bathroom for no good reason?) I wouldn't train my dog that way.
>>
>> p.143-144 �Having a struggle at bedtime? Try this: Next time you�re
>> dealing with the usual bathroom trips, cups of water, giggling, and
>> talking, call off bedtime. Declare, �Nobody has to go to bed tonight!�
>> Inform them that they may stay up as long as they like�the operative
>> words being stay up. Then have each child stand still in the middle of
>> a separate room of the house.�
>>
>> It seems to me this one has been used on military prisoners. Deprive
>> someone of sleep and you cause disorientation and make them obedient
>> to your whims.
>>
>> p.171 �As I hinted in the first chapter, the whole catalyst for this
>> book�fueling my need for creative correction�came when my son was
>> about six or seven years old. Suddenly, spankings, so effective in the
>> past, just didn�t work on him anymore. They actually made things
>> worse. It didn�t matter how calmly and lovingly I administered the
>> spanking; it would send Tucker even further out of control, and we
>> would both end up crying.�
>>
>> Interesting that her older son became *more* violent at 6 after years
>> of her spanking technique. Very telling, imo, about what spanking
>> taught him.
>>
>> p.203 �Require the two siblings to go �toe to toe.� Have each child
>> face the other with their toes touching; they must remain that way
>> until they�re no longer angry.� �Use a pair of toy handcuffs to join
>> two siblings who can�t seem to get along. It�s really fun to watch
>> them try to eat dinner like this, or read a book, or take the garbage
>> out, tasks I�ll often assign them.� �Hugs, even forced ones, are good
>> at breaking down barriers.� �Make each child stand at opposite ends of
>> the yard. Then have them yell �I love you!� back and forth 20 times.�
>>
>> p.208 �Got any old hand or ankle weights in the garage? Have your
>> child wear them around his ankles or carry them around for the day as
>> punishment for being a bad example to a younger sibling.�
>> p.209 �Tie the arguing siblings� ankles together as though they�re in
>> a three-legged race, and don�t let them part until the issue is
>> resolved or dropped.�
>>
>> Lovely. Kids should be facilitated in talking out their problems and
>> resolving them, but forcing them like this has to create resentment.
>>
>>
>> She gets way too much pleasure ouf of watching her children *obey*
>> in stupid ways.
>>
>> More *creative corrections* here:
>>
>> http://www.stoptherod.net/creative-correction-pp146-161.html
>>
>>
> You may not agree with her methods but I see nothing that rises to
> the level of abusive that would require removing her kids.

The emotional abuse alone could be sufficient. You know about as much
about CPS as you do about the law and about mental health, monkeyboy.

> If you
> don't agree with her, don't buy her book!

You wouldn't be suggesting that the poster not exercise her free speech
by stating her opinion, would you, monkeyboy?

> Why are you giving her
> free advertising.

So all critics are giving free advertising. It's rather hard not to if
one is doing a critique, don't you think?

> Like I said, she is just another celebrity!

Like the poster said, no, she is not just another celebrity. Her book
has been recommended for parenting purposes. You need to look further
into this author's background, stupid, before you make too big a fool of
yourself..as you have in the past.

The poster, if I'm not mistaken, has a penchant for exposing little
****s like you, Doan.

You who would not step up and be heard when posters here advocated
beating children. Yet in other posts you claimed to be against beating
children. Yet if someone is against hitting children you are back with
your screeching rants again.

Inconsistent little screeching hysterical dancing monkeyboy.

And that's all you are.

>
> Doan
>
>


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[Doan]

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:

> Doan wrote:
> > On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 10:29:40 -0700, Doan > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ok, I took the time to read the excerp:
> >>>
> >>> "Spanking Guidlines:
> >>> 1. Never spank out of anger.
> >>> 2. Send your kids to a predetermined place for correction. It will not
> >>> only give both of you time to calm down, but it will also immediately
> >>> begin the discipline, even if you need to get something out of the
> >>> oven, hang up the phone, or find a bread in whatever you are doing.
> >>
> >>> 3. Talk with your child first about what he did wrong. Ask him why he
> >>> is receiving the correction. This takes the burden off you and reminds
> >>> him that Mommy or Daddy isn't being mean; he is simply needs to be
> >>> punished for his disobedience.
> >>
> >>> 4. There maybe times when, after hearing your child's side of the story,
> >>> the offense doesn't warrant a spanking. It's ok to change your mind
> >>> and come up with more appropriate correction. This will also reinforce
> >>> to your children that they are being heard.
> >>> ...
> >>
> >> What happened to 5,6,7 and 8?
> >>
> >> 5. Ask your child to lean over, stand up, lie down, however it works
> >> best. The main purpose is to avoid wrestling with your child. She
> >> needs to willingly submit to punishment. For example at our house,
> >> Clancy prefers to stand up and lean both hands against the wall, while
> >> Haven would rather bend over my lap.
> >>
> >> Where is it written that anyone should *willingly submit to
> >> punishment?* Unless your object is to break a child's spirit, why
> >> would this be a requirement.
> >>
> >> 6. Where to spank: Steve and I spank on the bottom --- but never the
> >> bare bottom --- because it has the most padding. Sometimes, if the
> >> hand is the offender (i.e. hitting, pinching, throwing rocks, etc.),
> >> we'll spank the palm.
> >>
> >> This one is weird. Spank on the bottom but not the bare bottom
> >> because it won't hurt as much? I don't get it at all. As for
> >> spanking the palm for hitting, well, it teaches that if someone is
> >> bigger than you, they can hit you. Her kids will probably continue
> >> her *tradition* but that's not a good thing.
> >>
> >> 7. As children get older, it may be prudent to have dads administer
> >> spankings to sons and moms to daughters.
> >>
> >> I think she is acknowledging the sexual implications of such spankings
> >> here. And not only that, but she is acknowledging that she still
> >> spanks as children get older. If the spankings worked, then
> >> supposedly they would be done by the time the child was old enough to
> >> have those implications.
> >>
> >> 8. The number of times: The number of spanks we give corresponds to a
> >> child's current age. This makes birthdays bittersweet, but it works
> >> for us.
> >>
> >> I think this is an acknowledgement that her kids certainly don't think
> >> an increase in the number of spanks because they are a year older is
> >> particularly logical. Certainly I see no logic in this at all.
> >>
> >>> 9. The majority of your corporal punishment should be accomplished by age
> >>> five and gradually dimish by age ten. It should be extremely rare
> >>> after that.
> >> That's why Tucker is described in the book as a *sinner*
> >>
> >>> 10. Always hug your child when you've finished the correction."
> >> 11. Have your child ask for God's forgiveness through prayer. This
> >> will help her grasp the concept that God is, the one to whom she is
> >> ulrimately responsible. I sometimes pray, too, if I feel that I still
> >> need to address the issue.
> >>
> >> p.265 Sample prayer for a child �Dear God, Thank you that my parents
> >> love me and that because they love me, they correct me when I sin.
> >> Thank you that the spankings drive out the foolishness in my heart.�
> >>
> >> Lovely, make children so submissive that they thank you for things
> >> that hurt them physically. This is definitely emotional abuse.
> >>
> >> 12. Finally, forget about it. God has forgiven your child, so move
> >> on.
> >>
> >> This one is ok, but does she really do it?
> >>
> >> Oh and, she knows darn well that she should not be doing this. Look
> >> at what she says about spanking in public.
> >>
> >> "I caution against spanking in public. If you must go to the public
> >> restroom and wait until it is empty, or better yet, head to the car.
> >> Once, in desperation, I hopped on the elevator and waited until
> >> everyone got off -- then gave Haven a quick swat between floors."
> >>
> >> "Steve and I also hesitate to spank our children when guests or
> >> service people are in our home. You never know how they might feel
> >> about corporal punishment or whether they think it's their duty to
> >> inform the authorities. Perhaps you can keep a little *tally sheet,*
> >> if necessary, and correct your child later, after the company leaves."
> >>
> >>> Does that sound like abuse to you, Dorothy?
> >>>
> >> Yes, considering the emotional abuse that goes along with it.
> >>
> >> From her website:
> >> Toddler independence? If your little one balks at holding your hand
> >> while in a parking lot or crossing the street, give him a choice.
> >> Remind him, "I can either hold your hand or hold your hair."
> >> Independence isn't quite so appealing on those terms.
> >>
> >> Great way to *encourage* a toddler to be independent. Yeah, right.
> >> Totally unnecessary as well. Remember too that she says in her book
> >> that you *must* be prepared to follow through on these threats so if
> >> her toddler didn't hold her hand, she would be grabbing him or her by
> >> the hair and dragging them across the street.
> >>
> >> p.137 �One effective correction is to rescind the privilege of playing
> >> with friends. Unfortunately, this punishes the friends, too�for
> >> example, last month, Tucker lost the privilege of playing with his
> >> friend Josiah after school because he told the baby-sitter no when she
> >> ordered him to his room. This upset Josiah terribly, because he had
> >> been waiting all week for this day.�
> >>
> >> Oh, good, punish your child's friend when he acts up.
> >>
> >> p.138 �As we walk along together shopping, I will suddenly give them
> >> silly commands that they must obey without arguing, such as �Walk
> >> backward,� or �Stop and touch your toes,� or �Give me a kiss.�
> >> Occasionally I�ll throw in a real command, like �Don�t touch that,� or
> >> �No, you may not have an Icee.� My favorite curve, however, is to say
> >> no to some reasonable request, like �May I go to the bathroom?��
> >>
> >> Do you approve of giving commands just to see kids jump? Do you
> >> approve of saying no to reasonable requests like going to the
> >> bathroom?
> >>
> >> How are kids ever going to learn to respect authority if their parents
> >> are arbitrary and ridiculous and deliberately cause them pain or
> >> discomfort for no rational reason. (refusing to let a child go to the
> >> bathroom for no good reason?) I wouldn't train my dog that way.
> >>
> >> p.143-144 �Having a struggle at bedtime? Try this: Next time you�re
> >> dealing with the usual bathroom trips, cups of water, giggling, and
> >> talking, call off bedtime. Declare, �Nobody has to go to bed tonight!�
> >> Inform them that they may stay up as long as they like�the operative
> >> words being stay up. Then have each child stand still in the middle of
> >> a separate room of the house.�
> >>
> >> It seems to me this one has been used on military prisoners. Deprive
> >> someone of sleep and you cause disorientation and make them obedient
> >> to your whims.
> >>
> >> p.171 �As I hinted in the first chapter, the whole catalyst for this
> >> book�fueling my need for creative correction�came when my son was
> >> about six or seven years old. Suddenly, spankings, so effective in the
> >> past, just didn�t work on him anymore. They actually made things
> >> worse. It didn�t matter how calmly and lovingly I administered the
> >> spanking; it would send Tucker even further out of control, and we
> >> would both end up crying.�
> >>
> >> Interesting that her older son became *more* violent at 6 after years
> >> of her spanking technique. Very telling, imo, about what spanking
> >> taught him.
> >>
> >> p.203 �Require the two siblings to go �toe to toe.� Have each child
> >> face the other with their toes touching; they must remain that way
> >> until they�re no longer angry.� �Use a pair of toy handcuffs to join
> >> two siblings who can�t seem to get along. It�s really fun to watch
> >> them try to eat dinner like this, or read a book, or take the garbage
> >> out, tasks I�ll often assign them.� �Hugs, even forced ones, are good
> >> at breaking down barriers.� �Make each child stand at opposite ends of
> >> the yard. Then have them yell �I love you!� back and forth 20 times.�
> >>
> >> p.208 �Got any old hand or ankle weights in the garage? Have your
> >> child wear them around his ankles or carry them around for the day as
> >> punishment for being a bad example to a younger sibling.�
> >> p.209 �Tie the arguing siblings� ankles together as though they�re in
> >> a three-legged race, and don�t let them part until the issue is
> >> resolved or dropped.�
> >>
> >> Lovely. Kids should be facilitated in talking out their problems and
> >> resolving them, but forcing them like this has to create resentment.
> >>
> >>
> >> She gets way too much pleasure ouf of watching her children *obey*
> >> in stupid ways.
> >>
> >> More *creative corrections* here:
> >>
> >> http://www.stoptherod.net/creative-correction-pp146-161.html
> >>
> >>
> > You may not agree with her methods but I see nothing that rises to
> > the level of abusive that would require removing her kids.
>
> The emotional abuse alone could be sufficient. You know about as much
> about CPS as you do about the law and about mental health, monkeyboy.
>
> > If you
> > don't agree with her, don't buy her book!
>
> You wouldn't be suggesting that the poster not exercise her free speech
> by stating her opinion, would you, monkeyboy?
>
> > Why are you giving her
> > free advertising.
>
> So all critics are giving free advertising. It's rather hard not to if
> one is doing a critique, don't you think?
>
> > Like I said, she is just another celebrity!
>
> Like the poster said, no, she is not just another celebrity. Her book
> has been recommended for parenting purposes. You need to look further
> into this author's background, stupid, before you make too big a fool of
> yourself..as you have in the past.
>
> The poster, if I'm not mistaken, has a penchant for exposing little
> ****s like you, Doan.
>
Hihihi! "****s" coming out of your mouth again!

Doan

> You who would not step up and be heard when posters here advocated
> beating children. Yet in other posts you claimed to be against beating
> children. Yet if someone is against hitting children you are back with
> your screeching rants again.
>
> Inconsistent little screeching hysterical dancing monkeyboy.
>
> And that's all you are.
>
> >
> > Doan
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
> to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
> contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
>

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006, toto wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 09:58:01 -0700, Doan > wrote:
>>
>>> How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
>>> Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
>>> I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
>>> a site that I would waste much time neither.
>>>
>> Did you read the quotes that were linked to:
>>
>> They were scanned pages from her book.
>>
> Yes. I see nothing that would require removing her kids from her.
> I don't want to see kids taking away from their parents, unless it is
> really necessary.
>
>> Yes, she is just another celebrity, but she wrote a discipline book
>> that is recommended to people by Focus on the Family and her book
>> advocates methods that are abusive.
>>
> And removing kids from their parents is not abusive?

Nope. Not as abusive as she is to her children.

Dropping them off at day care? Is that abusive?

Taking them to the dentist?

Subjecting them to immunizations?

You ****ants have drained all the blood you can from that piece of
propagandist bull****.

Leaving kids with ********s like the author of that abusive tripe is
abusive, stupid.

If she weren't a celebrity CPS would have investigated her long ago.

She also likes to threaten to sue anyone that disagrees with her, ****ant.

>
> Doan
>

Your kind of sick **** hole, Doan. The kind that like you would probably
claim they were against beating children but when it's supported does
NOT step up and be heard.

You couldn't bring yourself to confront Fern because you are just like
her and other ****ant child abusing torturers, aren't you, Doan?

0:->



--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:
>
>> Doan wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Doan wrote:
>>>>> How about quoting some of the "stuff" from the book, Dorothy?
>>>>> Lisa Whelchel is just another celebrity much like Britney Spears,
>>>>> I wouldn't waste much time with her but stoptherod.net is not
>>>>> a site that I would waste much time neither.
>>>> What's the matter, Doan. Can't stand it that Christians don't march in
>>>> lockstep to the "beat the child" drum?
>>>>
>>> No! I can't stand tasering children as young as SIX-YEAR OLDS either!
>> So you'd just let him saw away, as he had already cut himself a couple
>> of times, with the edge of a piece of broken glass until he got to a
>> major artery? You are sick, little boy.
>>
>> You, of course, being a stupid monkey would jump right in there, try to
>> grab him and get him cut worse, wouldn't you stupid?
>
> Hihihi! Is that the only alternative you can think of, stupid?

And yours would be? Stupid. He was sawing on his leg, not far from his
femoral artery. Death in a few seconds if that's cut deeply enough.

Broken glass can be and often IS sharper than surgical scalpels. Go
ahead, tell us, wonderboy, what YOUR alternative would be to stop him
instantly. Go for it, monkeyboy.

R R R R R

I notice you are avoiding responding to the question of Fern defending
parents beating children in church.

You okay with beatings now, suddenly, after declaring you weren't?

Change of heart, monkeyboy.

You've probably got Fern's personal email addy. Why not confront her. Go
ahead, and tell us how it turns out.





--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[0:->]

Doan wrote:

.... yet another brilliant monkeyboy retort ...




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[Amanda]

About Whelchel's book, there's an aspect I'd like to point out and
that, since I'm a mother (maybe not with capital M, but sure a mother),
made me really astounted, shocked.

Whelchel describes her correction techniques like an engineer
describes the techniques he/she used to improve the performance of,
say, an electronic device or an electrical system (by the way, besides
being a mom, I'm an engineer). And like an engineer that's proud of
his/her job to optimize the performance of an engine, a device,
something like that, Whelchel sounds proud about the measures she
invented. An engineer, of course, is only interested in the
performance, of the device he's dealing with. Engines have no feelings,
no emotions. Engines and devices are intended for perfoming a certain
function, like playing a DVD, taking someone from a place to another,
etc. The engineer, as wel as those who use those devices, doesn't love
them. We like what they give us and frequently replace them by a better
or newer one, one that's technological more advanced.

But people, and of course kids of any age, are not engines. Of course
you want your kids to behave well (and you must define what "behaving
well" means), but, above all, you gotta love yourt kids. If you take
measures that make your kids behave properly, no matter what "properly
here means to you, but make them unhappy, stressed, fearful, then, come
on, youre not being a parent. Contrarily to what I do when I deal with
electrical systems, the emphasis, when I deal with my kids, is on my
kids, on their happiness, not on their performance.

I may be wrong and don't want to be a unfair, but Whelchel doesn't seem
to love their children. She even seems (and I say seems because all I
have are evidences, but no proofs) to bloat over the suffering her
measures cause on her kids. She herself agrees that some of her
measures are emotionally torturing. And sounds proud of the suffering
they cause..

Someone here said her book is horrendous. I didn't read her book and
don't intend to, but, if I do, I think I'll agree it horrendous.

When you deal with kids, there are no specific and well defined cause
and effect relations. If you deal with devices, then there are some
variables you can control, and that are just called control variables.
They belong to a certain set called domain, and to each combination of
such variables you get an output in a certain range. You can measure
such an output, you can mazimize it (if it's something interesting,
like a profit) or minimize it (if it's something not interesting, like
a cost). If you have ever seen some math, then you know I'm talking
about something like Y = f(x1, x2,....xn), where f is called a
function.

But with people, not only kids, things don't work like that.
Fortunately!!!!!!!!!!!! Though I have studied some Math and like it, I
hope I'll never see the day when someone says something like "I have 3
kids, K1, K2, K3, belonging to the set of all kids. If S is the
spanking function that mesures the result of a same spanking, then we
ave S(K1) > S(k2)". (Sorry for this methaphore)

Yes, I'm ann engineer, deal with logic, costs, economic analysis, but I
do my best to be a mom, even if with a small m. I dont know if it's
something good or bad, but the fact is that what my 2 kids (a girl,
12, and a boy 14) most complain about is that I work too much and spent
little time with them. At least, the dont fear me, they like to stay
with me. If you read the kind of posts I usually send to the Net, you
see most of them have nothing to do with parenting, but I'm trying to
become a better mother.

Amanda




toto wrote:
> Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
> (the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>
> Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
> children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
> I feel really sorry for her children.
>
> http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

[Carlson LaVonne]

Amanda,

I left all of your wonderful post. I'd like to comment on one part.
You said, "Someone here said her book is horrendous. I didn't read her
book and don't intend to, but, if I do, I think I'll agree it
horrendous."

I said that, and perhaps others as well. I don't feel that I can
condemn or recommend a book that I haven't read. The same goes for
research.

There are so many terrifying parenting books out there -- James Dobson
and others. I've read every one that I have discussed. It turns my
stomach that so many "well-respected" individuals have so little
understanding or respect for children.

If you read Whelchel's book, you may want to go to the library. There
was a time when I bought these books, but I no longer can financially
contribute to authors who advocate child abuse.

LaVonne

Amanda wrote:

> About Whelchel's book, there's an aspect I'd like to point out and
> that, since I'm a mother (maybe not with capital M, but sure a mother),
> made me really astounted, shocked.
>
> Whelchel describes her correction techniques like an engineer
> describes the techniques he/she used to improve the performance of,
> say, an electronic device or an electrical system (by the way, besides
> being a mom, I'm an engineer). And like an engineer that's proud of
> his/her job to optimize the performance of an engine, a device,
> something like that, Whelchel sounds proud about the measures she
> invented. An engineer, of course, is only interested in the
> performance, of the device he's dealing with. Engines have no feelings,
> no emotions. Engines and devices are intended for perfoming a certain
> function, like playing a DVD, taking someone from a place to another,
> etc. The engineer, as wel as those who use those devices, doesn't love
> them. We like what they give us and frequently replace them by a better
> or newer one, one that's technological more advanced.
>
> But people, and of course kids of any age, are not engines. Of course
> you want your kids to behave well (and you must define what "behaving
> well" means), but, above all, you gotta love yourt kids. If you take
> measures that make your kids behave properly, no matter what "properly
> here means to you, but make them unhappy, stressed, fearful, then, come
> on, youre not being a parent. Contrarily to what I do when I deal with
> electrical systems, the emphasis, when I deal with my kids, is on my
> kids, on their happiness, not on their performance.
>
> I may be wrong and don't want to be a unfair, but Whelchel doesn't seem
> to love their children. She even seems (and I say seems because all I
> have are evidences, but no proofs) to bloat over the suffering her
> measures cause on her kids. She herself agrees that some of her
> measures are emotionally torturing. And sounds proud of the suffering
> they cause..
>
> Someone here said her book is horrendous. I didn't read her book and
> don't intend to, but, if I do, I think I'll agree it horrendous.
>
> When you deal with kids, there are no specific and well defined cause
> and effect relations. If you deal with devices, then there are some
> variables you can control, and that are just called control variables.
> They belong to a certain set called domain, and to each combination of
> such variables you get an output in a certain range. You can measure
> such an output, you can mazimize it (if it's something interesting,
> like a profit) or minimize it (if it's something not interesting, like
> a cost). If you have ever seen some math, then you know I'm talking
> about something like Y = f(x1, x2,....xn), where f is called a
> function.
>
> But with people, not only kids, things don't work like that.
> Fortunately!!!!!!!!!!!! Though I have studied some Math and like it, I
> hope I'll never see the day when someone says something like "I have 3
> kids, K1, K2, K3, belonging to the set of all kids. If S is the
> spanking function that mesures the result of a same spanking, then we
> ave S(K1) > S(k2)". (Sorry for this methaphore)
>
> Yes, I'm ann engineer, deal with logic, costs, economic analysis, but I
> do my best to be a mom, even if with a small m. I dont know if it's
> something good or bad, but the fact is that what my 2 kids (a girl,
> 12, and a boy 14) most complain about is that I work too much and spent
> little time with them. At least, the dont fear me, they like to stay
> with me. If you read the kind of posts I usually send to the Net, you
> see most of them have nothing to do with parenting, but I'm trying to
> become a better mother.
>
> Amanda
>
>
>
>
> toto wrote:
>
>>Focus on the Family recommends this book by Lisa Whelchel
>>(the actress who played Blair on The Facts of Life)
>>
>>Looking at the stuff she recommends I don't understand why her
>>children haven't been taken away from her. What a bizarre book.
>>I feel really sorry for her children.
>>
>>http://www.stoptherod.net/creativecorrection.html
>>
>>
>>--
>>Dorothy
>>
>>There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>>that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>
>>The Outer Limits
>
>

[Greegor]

I thought the representation that for parents
to be cold and dispassionate is evil was funny.

Kids try a LOT of guilt trips and emotional manipulation.

One parenting expert whose seminar was
broadcast on PBS TV has made one response
almost his trade mark.

In response to various con jobs he advises
parents to say "Nice Try!" and give them
a big smile.

The kids hate that parents are onto their con.

I suspect he is against spanking but I suspect
he is against ruling it out completely also.

Certainly being cold or emotional each
have advantages at some times.

I just love it when you zealots come up
with blanket statements and sappy sentiment
to push your socialist political agenda as
if it is parent education.

Whoowie, you got a third person on EARTH
to buy your dogmatic drivel. Ptptptpt!

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> I thought the representation that for parents
> to be cold and dispassionate is evil was funny.

You support mind ****ing kids then, and going for various dysfunctional
social development problems?

> Kids try a LOT of guilt trips and emotional manipulation.

Odd, mine didn't. Odd too my friends and acquaintances that did not use
a punishment model didn't have that going on.

I've seen kids so raised that would stand their ground and be assertive,
but balk at doing "guilt trips," and generally tended to fight fair
within their understanding.

I have a hunch that YOU felt guilty, and ANY confrontation by the child
trying to get their needs met was interpreted by you as "guilt trips"
perpetuation by them on you.

You DO understand that's probably a problem with YOUR upbringing, right?

How would a child emotionally manipulate you, Greg?

And for that matter, is it not NORMAL for humans to interact in this way
when they feel powerless?

Imagine, a child, be so obnoxious as to think they are, or pretending
they are, powerless. 0:->

> One parenting expert whose seminar was
> broadcast on PBS TV has made one response
> almost his trade mark.

Who is that? I don't watch TV, but I'm sure I can find him on the web.

> In response to various con jobs he advises
> parents to say "Nice Try!" and give them
> a big smile.
>
> The kids hate that parents are onto their con.

I'll bet they do. Or they are taught that seeking to get their needs and
wants met is a matter of "conning."

Do you know what actually happens in this manipulations of children by
such smarmy methods (you obviously love being "one up" on those kids,
right?).

They kid excepts they are a con, (the parent is teaching them they are)
and learns to get better at it.

On the other hand, if the parent presumes the child experiences what
they experience and their attempts at getting their way is normal and
about needs and wants that might very well be, and often IS, about
DEVELOPMENTAL NEEDS, they do much better.

The parent is telling the child, "you are normal. It's normal to want
things. Let's look at what's possible. I'll help you when I can, and
show you how to get what you want or need by acceptable means."

Kids want most often what kids are ready for and NEED. It's the child
that is frustrated by the kind of parenting you demonstrated you
like....belittling the child...that results in the child going
overboard. Escalating. Asking for MORE than they need as a bargaining
wedge.

In other words, how to create the "Monster Child.'

> I suspect he is against spanking but I suspect
> he is against ruling it out completely also.

You have a tendency to suspect things. Usually you are wrong. Why not
ask him?

> Certainly being cold or emotional each
> have advantages at some times.

Did you mean, "cold and dispassionate" as the poster said, and you tried
to make fun of their concern with it's danger to the child's growth and
development?

No, really there isn't a time for that, as a manipulative tool.

If you are feeling cold, feeling dispassionate, then THAT is the time to
show it. Being real doesn't usually worry children. They can identify
with that feeling of being isolated and wanting to be from time to time
to REST UP from personal interactions and recharge one's batteries.

I explained that to children around me both in my private life and my
professional live, and even the sick children I worked with, could for
the most part, get it. Those that could not I noted were the extremely
disturbed.

The rest were cooperative, would give me a break, even at very difficult
times for them...because they KNEW that they had my promise and it would
be kept, that I'd come back to them when I was over my need for a break
and we'd take up THEIR LEGITIMATE needs again where we left off.

> I just love it when you zealots come up
> with blanket statements and sappy sentiment
> to push your socialist political agenda as
> if it is parent education.

Weird. YOU just used one for YOUR argument. The expert you quoted.

What blanket statements have WE made, boy?

And what is political about child rearing methods, except in YOUR mind?

The point of politics is to manage contention between people.

In fact, parents and children, where punishment isn't the model, tend to
be more cooperative than political.

There is much LESS jockeying for power and control. They spend more time
finding ways to cooperate and each get their needs and goals met.

Together.

> Whoowie, you got a third person on EARTH
> to buy your dogmatic drivel. Ptptptpt!

I can understand how YOU would find methods based on support and
cooperation "dogmatic drivel," as you have demonstrated your tendency
toward conflict being how you see the world and the people in it.

It's all about your "enemies," and you "winning."

0:->


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[Greegor]

Greegor wrote:
> I thought the representation that for parents
> to be cold and dispassionate is evil was funny.

Kane wrote
> You support mind [fing] kids then, and going for
> various dysfunctional social development problems?

Please explain how the cogs of your mind
reached from the first statement by me to
the second statement by you.

Can you create a logic diagram for that?

Having no luck pretending that spanking parents
are angry and irrational, now you're trying to
villify parents who are cold about it also?


Kane wrote
> It's all about your "enemies," and you "winning."
Winning what?

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Greegor wrote:
>> I thought the representation that for parents
>> to be cold and dispassionate is evil was funny.
>
> Kane wrote
>> You support mind [fing] kids then, and going for
>> various dysfunctional social development problems?

It is psychologically dangerous to tell children you love them, hit them
in a cold dispassionate manner, and pretend to having no feelings.

It models a very dangerous pathology, Greg.

It's called, Sadism.

It is the demeanor of the professional torturer. Those that have been
tortured and survived often describe their torturers as being like that.
Doing the most horrendous things, with no emotion showing.

> Please explain how the cogs of your mind
> reached from the first statement by me to
> the second statement by you.

It's logic and knowledge, Greg, and working with teen aged boys that
were quite mentally ill, some violently so. And knowing their histories
and what their parents did to them.

> Can you create a logic diagram for that?

No, it's logical only if you have the knowledge. You don't.

You rely on your ignorance, and slapdash construction of issues from
propagandists, liars, cheats, the unethical and the ones that pander to
your kind.

Enjoy yourself.

> Having no luck pretending that spanking parents
> are angry and irrational,

Your use of "pretending" destroys your pretext.

> now you're trying to
> villify parents who are cold about it also?

There is no such thing as a "cold and dispassionate" person, Greg. Not
in matters like hitting another.

If they present with that affect, they are stuffing their real feelings.

I've worked with these in prison and mental health settings. You do not
want to be left alone with them. They WILL, when there is no audience,
display far more passion and heat than you want to have to deal with.

> Kane wrote
>> It's all about your "enemies," and you "winning."
> Winning what?

The prize for being the central victim. Thus finally important in some way.

We see that in the cold dispassionate killers that seemed so 'normal'
but end up on a tower with a rifle.

They have a great "victim" racket. And can elaborate it for years,
before popping.

You into firearms, Greg?

I am. Don't hunt anymore though. And sure don't feel victimized.

0:->



--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

[Doan]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:

> Greegor wrote:
> > Greegor wrote:
> >> I thought the representation that for parents
> >> to be cold and dispassionate is evil was funny.
> >
> > Kane wrote
> >> You support mind [fing] kids then, and going for
> >> various dysfunctional social development problems?
>
> It is psychologically dangerous to tell children you love them, hit them
> in a cold dispassionate manner, and pretend to having no feelings.
>
> It models a very dangerous pathology, Greg.
>
> It's called, Sadism.
>
So is that what you did when you hit your kid? Or did you hit you kid
in raging anger, Kane?

Doan

> It is the demeanor of the professional torturer. Those that have been
> tortured and survived often describe their torturers as being like that.
> Doing the most horrendous things, with no emotion showing.
>
> > Please explain how the cogs of your mind
> > reached from the first statement by me to
> > the second statement by you.
>
> It's logic and knowledge, Greg, and working with teen aged boys that
> were quite mentally ill, some violently so. And knowing their histories
> and what their parents did to them.
>
> > Can you create a logic diagram for that?
>
> No, it's logical only if you have the knowledge. You don't.
>
> You rely on your ignorance, and slapdash construction of issues from
> propagandists, liars, cheats, the unethical and the ones that pander to
> your kind.
>
> Enjoy yourself.
>
> > Having no luck pretending that spanking parents
> > are angry and irrational,
>
> Your use of "pretending" destroys your pretext.
>
> > now you're trying to
> > villify parents who are cold about it also?
>
> There is no such thing as a "cold and dispassionate" person, Greg. Not
> in matters like hitting another.
>
> If they present with that affect, they are stuffing their real feelings.
>
> I've worked with these in prison and mental health settings. You do not
> want to be left alone with them. They WILL, when there is no audience,
> display far more passion and heat than you want to have to deal with.
>
> > Kane wrote
> >> It's all about your "enemies," and you "winning."
> > Winning what?
>
> The prize for being the central victim. Thus finally important in some way.
>
> We see that in the cold dispassionate killers that seemed so 'normal'
> but end up on a tower with a rifle.
>
> They have a great "victim" racket. And can elaborate it for years,
> before popping.
>
> You into firearms, Greg?
>
> I am. Don't hunt anymore though. And sure don't feel victimized.
>
> 0:->
>
>
>
> --
> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
> to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
> contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
>

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Jul 2006, 0:-> wrote:
>
>> Greegor wrote:
>>> Greegor wrote:
>>>> I thought the representation that for parents
>>>> to be cold and dispassionate is evil was funny.
>>> Kane wrote
>>>> You support mind [fing] kids then, and going for
>>>> various dysfunctional social development problems?
>> It is psychologically dangerous to tell children you love them, hit them
>> in a cold dispassionate manner, and pretend to having no feelings.
>>
>> It models a very dangerous pathology, Greg.
>>
>> It's called, Sadism.
>>
> So is that what you did when you hit your kid? Or did you hit you kid
> in raging anger, Kane?

I was angry. No rage.
>
> Doan

Are you going to continue to harass or isn't your turn to start
answering some questions?

Who spanked you, specifically when you were a child. What ages were you?
How hard were you hit?

Do your memories jibe with the witness of family members from those times?

What have they told you that you do not remember?

>> It is the demeanor of the professional torturer. Those that have been
>> tortured and survived often describe their torturers as being like that.
>> Doing the most horrendous things, with no emotion showing.
>>
>>> Please explain how the cogs of your mind
>>> reached from the first statement by me to
>>> the second statement by you.
>> It's logic and knowledge, Greg, and working with teen aged boys that
>> were quite mentally ill, some violently so. And knowing their histories
>> and what their parents did to them.
>>
>>> Can you create a logic diagram for that?
>> No, it's logical only if you have the knowledge. You don't.
>>
>> You rely on your ignorance, and slapdash construction of issues from
>> propagandists, liars, cheats, the unethical and the ones that pander to
>> your kind.
>>
>> Enjoy yourself.
>>
>>> Having no luck pretending that spanking parents
>>> are angry and irrational,
>> Your use of "pretending" destroys your pretext.
>>
>> > now you're trying to
>>> villify parents who are cold about it also?
>> There is no such thing as a "cold and dispassionate" person, Greg. Not
>> in matters like hitting another.
>>
>> If they present with that affect, they are stuffing their real feelings.
>>
>> I've worked with these in prison and mental health settings. You do not
>> want to be left alone with them. They WILL, when there is no audience,
>> display far more passion and heat than you want to have to deal with.
>>
>>> Kane wrote
>>>> It's all about your "enemies," and you "winning."
>>> Winning what?
>> The prize for being the central victim. Thus finally important in some way.
>>
>> We see that in the cold dispassionate killers that seemed so 'normal'
>> but end up on a tower with a rifle.
>>
>> They have a great "victim" racket. And can elaborate it for years,
>> before popping.
>>
>> You into firearms, Greg?
>>
>> I am. Don't hunt anymore though. And sure don't feel victimized.
>>
>> 0:->
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
>> to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
>> contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)
>>
>


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)