Pedo makes Fraudulent abuse report GETS NAILED FOR KID PORN

[Greegor]

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061112/NEWS08/611120343/1001/NEWS

False sex-abuse claims leave cloud over family
By JENNIFER JACOBS REGISTER STAFF WRITER
November 12, 2006

Osceola, Ia. - The photograph of a naked man about to rape a screaming
girl arrived at the state child abuse investigators' office in an
anonymous envelope five years ago.

A simple message was marked on the back of the photo: "Ashley Mongar,
Friendly Acres Trailer Park, Lot 20, Osceola, Iowa. Photographer:
Brandy Mongar."

During the police investigation that followed, Ashley Mongar, then 8
years old, was pulled out of school, shown the explicit photograph, and
examined by her doctor for signs of sexual intercourse. She tearfully
denied any abuse. But police, uncertain whether to believe her, put her
father in jail, interrogated her mother, and removed her three siblings
from their parents' custody.

Within two days, investigators uncovered the truth: Brandy and Bill
Mongar had been framed.

But a cloud of public suspicion has followed the Mongars for the past
five years.

Federal prosecutors later proved that Lester John White Jr., 51, a
Garden Grove man who had a grudge against the Mongars, searched through
pedophilia sites on the Internet until he found a photo of a child who
resembled Ashley Mongar. Then White made "a vengeful false child abuse
report" against her parents, prosecutors said.

White admitted in his trial last winter that five days before Christmas
in 2001, he anonymously mailed the downloaded image to the Iowa
Department of Human Services office in Osceola.

White insisted he did so out of concern for Ashley. His defense lawyer,
Nick Drees, contended that a conviction would deter others from
reporting suspected abuse if they could be held criminally liable for
handing over evidence that includes child pornography.

But a federal judge found White guilty of three charges for receiving,
possessing and distributing child pornography.

The photo he claimed was of the Mongars was actually part of "the
Heather series," a widely distributed collection of child pornography,
investigators testified.

White was sentenced last month to six years in prison.

With White heading off to prison soon, the five-year saga Bill and
Brandy Mongar lived through finally came to an end. But before it
ended, some of the Mongars' friends grew distant, both lost their jobs,
and they ended up moving away from Osceola for a while.

Accusations arise from care dispute

A feud between the Mongar family and the White family began in May
2001. Lester White's wife, Juanita, who provided child care for the
Mongar children, sued Brandy and Bill Mongar for child care fees.

Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of
Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.

After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.

In November 2001, Lester White downloaded the image of "Heather" being
sexually abused, but he waited until Dec. 20 to mail it to the DHS,
investigators testified.

U.S. Postal Inspector Kevin Marshall and Osceola police investigator
Charles Beeker went to Ashley's elementary school to determine whether
she was, indeed, the child in the photo, court documents state.

Beeker knew the Mongar family and "believed it was certainly her,"
according to court testimony.

However, when Marshall met the girl, he was not convinced.

Police asked Brandy and Bill Mongar, who were then manager and
assistant manager at a KFC restaurant in Osceola, to go to the Osceola
Police Department. They arrested Bill on a warrant for failing to pay
traffic fines.

Brandy Mongar said, "They read me my rights and slapped this picture
down in front of my face and said, 'This is your daughter.' "

She said she reacted to "the horror of the photo," which showed a young
girl lying on a bed and a man, whose genitals were in full view,
performing a sex act on her.

"I started screaming. I kept saying, 'This is not my daughter! Oh my
God!' and I started crying, and it was just a horrible ordeal," she
remembered.

What was immediately obvious to the mother was that the girl in the
photo had crooked teeth, while her own daughter's teeth are "perfect,"
she said.

And the man in the photo had no tattoo on his hand or leg, while Bill
Mongar has tattoos in both places.

When she pointed these details out, the investigators told her
alterations were possible with a digital photo. She responded that she
didn't own a digital camera.

"I said, 'I want my kids,' " Mongar recalled. "My fear was my kids were
gone, and I didn't know where they were going."



Girl told, 'Your parents are sick'

Ashley and her younger sister, who police had taken from her
kindergarten classroom, were in separate rooms elsewhere at the police
station, Brandy Mongar said. It was 10 hours before the girls were able
to leave with their grandmother, whom DHS officials had asked to care
for all four Mongar children.

"I understand why they did it," Brandy Mongar said. "If something like
that had really happened, they need to take all the precautionary steps
they have to do."

The situation was no less painful when Ashley later told her mother the
questions the male officers asked her.

"She was scared because she's in this room alone with no one she knows
and these guys kept telling her: 'We know this is you,' " Brandy Mongar
said. "They said, 'Your parents are sick people,' and that we need to
be on medication. The medication would help us and she wouldn't have to
go through that no more. She kept saying 'No, no.' "

The investigators asked Brandy Mongar if they could search her home,
and she quickly agreed. Federal court documents show that the officers
did not find the blanket or girl's clothing that could be seen in the
photo. They confiscated the family computer, however, but found no
cameras or anything that would connect the Mongars to the photo,
according to court records.

Brandy Mongar said the officers told her not to talk to anyone about
the case - neither family nor friends who could possibly destroy
evidence for her. If she bumped into her family in town, she was told
to turn and walk away from them, she said.

"My whole world, in just a matter of minutes, came crashing down on
me," she said. "It felt like my mom, my sister, my kids were completely
out of my life."

The next morning, stinging from a killer headache, Brandy Mongar went
to the store for pain medication. By coincidence, she said, her four
children were there with her mother, Linda Hopkins.

"My youngest was almost 2 and he said, 'Momma!' I instantly started
bawling and the kids started crying. I went directly to them. I
couldn't stay away from my kids. My mom said, 'Brandy, you're going to
get caught,' and I said, 'I don't care, this isn't right.' "

Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.

"They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.

The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day.



Attorney uncovers origin of photo

Investigators told the Mongars they had identified the photo as part of
the series of "Heather" photos available on the Internet. But they did
not know who may have mailed it until a week later when the Garden
Grove city attorney, Monty Franklin, who was also acting as the
courtroom advocate for the Mongar children, recognized similarities
between the "Heather" photo and photos mailed to Garden Grove city
officials by Lester and Juanita White complaining about neighborhood
eyesores, court records show.

A warrant was issued and a search of the Whites' home uncovered more
child pornography, as well as swinger magazines and home movies of the
Whites having sex "with each other, and with other men, other women,
and multiple partners," court documents show.

Lester White told investigators - verbally and in a written confession
- that he had downloaded the "Heather" photo and other child
pornography, court documents show.

White later contradicted this at his trial, and in a motion for a new
trial argued that his son was to blame for the pornography being on the
family computer.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Peyton Gaumer said in court documents
that White, who was indicted in December 2003, falsely accused Bill
Mongar of "one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, namely the rape
of his own daughter."

The ordeal caused Ashley "extreme emotional trauma," he said.

Brandy Mongar said: "The public, the way they treated us, they acted
like we were really guilty of this. They saw Bill being taken away in a
police car and everybody said, 'What'd Bill do?' I felt like everyone
was looking at us."

In June 2004, the family moved to Des Moines, where Bill got a job and
Brandy went to school.

They returned to the Osceola area nine months later because their
children missed home, said Brandy Mongar, who is now a full-time
college student and works part time at a restaurant.

At White's sentencing, Ashley did not want to go on the stand to read
her victim's statement, so the prosecutor read it for her, her mother
said.

The family was "ecstatic" when the judge sentenced White to six years
in prison, she said.

Ashley, now 13, is no longer completely trusting of people, Brandy
Mongar said.

Ashley has had nightmares, including one where she dreamed she was in a
bathtub and White was staring at her through a window.

She gets upset if someone outside her immediate family tries to take
snapshots of her.

"She's seen what pictures can do," Brandy Mongar said.

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061112/NEWS08/611120343/1001/NEWS
>
> False sex-abuse claims leave cloud over family
> By JENNIFER JACOBS REGISTER STAFF WRITER
> November 12, 2006
>
> Osceola, Ia. - The photograph of a naked man about to rape a screaming
> girl arrived at the state child abuse investigators' office in an
> anonymous envelope five years ago.
>
> A simple message was marked on the back of the photo: "Ashley Mongar,
> Friendly Acres Trailer Park, Lot 20, Osceola, Iowa. Photographer:
> Brandy Mongar."
>
> During the police investigation that followed, Ashley Mongar, then 8
> years old, was pulled out of school, shown the explicit photograph, and
> examined by her doctor for signs of sexual intercourse. She tearfully
> denied any abuse. But police, uncertain whether to believe her, put her
> father in jail, interrogated her mother, and removed her three siblings
> from their parents' custody.
>
> Within two days, investigators uncovered the truth: Brandy and Bill
> Mongar had been framed.
>
> But a cloud of public suspicion has followed the Mongars for the past
> five years.
>
> Federal prosecutors later proved that Lester John White Jr., 51, a
> Garden Grove man who had a grudge against the Mongars, searched through
> pedophilia sites on the Internet until he found a photo of a child who
> resembled Ashley Mongar. Then White made "a vengeful false child abuse
> report" against her parents, prosecutors said.
>
> White admitted in his trial last winter that five days before Christmas
> in 2001, he anonymously mailed the downloaded image to the Iowa
> Department of Human Services office in Osceola.
>
> White insisted he did so out of concern for Ashley. His defense lawyer,
> Nick Drees, contended that a conviction would deter others from
> reporting suspected abuse if they could be held criminally liable for
> handing over evidence that includes child pornography.
>
> But a federal judge found White guilty of three charges for receiving,
> possessing and distributing child pornography.
>
> The photo he claimed was of the Mongars was actually part of "the
> Heather series," a widely distributed collection of child pornography,
> investigators testified.
>
> White was sentenced last month to six years in prison.
>
> With White heading off to prison soon, the five-year saga Bill and
> Brandy Mongar lived through finally came to an end. But before it
> ended, some of the Mongars' friends grew distant, both lost their jobs,
> and they ended up moving away from Osceola for a while.
>
> Accusations arise from care dispute
>
> A feud between the Mongar family and the White family began in May
> 2001. Lester White's wife, Juanita, who provided child care for the
> Mongar children, sued Brandy and Bill Mongar for child care fees.
>
> Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of
> Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
> butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
> One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
> hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.
>
> After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
> Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
> the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.
>
> In November 2001, Lester White downloaded the image of "Heather" being
> sexually abused, but he waited until Dec. 20 to mail it to the DHS,
> investigators testified.
>
> U.S. Postal Inspector Kevin Marshall and Osceola police investigator
> Charles Beeker went to Ashley's elementary school to determine whether
> she was, indeed, the child in the photo, court documents state.
>
> Beeker knew the Mongar family and "believed it was certainly her,"
> according to court testimony.
>
> However, when Marshall met the girl, he was not convinced.
>
> Police asked Brandy and Bill Mongar, who were then manager and
> assistant manager at a KFC restaurant in Osceola, to go to the Osceola
> Police Department. They arrested Bill on a warrant for failing to pay
> traffic fines.
>
> Brandy Mongar said, "They read me my rights and slapped this picture
> down in front of my face and said, 'This is your daughter.' "
>
> She said she reacted to "the horror of the photo," which showed a young
> girl lying on a bed and a man, whose genitals were in full view,
> performing a sex act on her.
>
> "I started screaming. I kept saying, 'This is not my daughter! Oh my
> God!' and I started crying, and it was just a horrible ordeal," she
> remembered.
>
> What was immediately obvious to the mother was that the girl in the
> photo had crooked teeth, while her own daughter's teeth are "perfect,"
> she said.
>
> And the man in the photo had no tattoo on his hand or leg, while Bill
> Mongar has tattoos in both places.
>
> When she pointed these details out, the investigators told her
> alterations were possible with a digital photo. She responded that she
> didn't own a digital camera.
>
> "I said, 'I want my kids,' " Mongar recalled. "My fear was my kids were
> gone, and I didn't know where they were going."
>
>
>
> Girl told, 'Your parents are sick'
>
> Ashley and her younger sister, who police had taken from her
> kindergarten classroom, were in separate rooms elsewhere at the police
> station, Brandy Mongar said. It was 10 hours before the girls were able
> to leave with their grandmother, whom DHS officials had asked to care
> for all four Mongar children.
>
> "I understand why they did it," Brandy Mongar said. "If something like
> that had really happened, they need to take all the precautionary steps
> they have to do."
>
> The situation was no less painful when Ashley later told her mother the
> questions the male officers asked her.
>
> "She was scared because she's in this room alone with no one she knows
> and these guys kept telling her: 'We know this is you,' " Brandy Mongar
> said. "They said, 'Your parents are sick people,' and that we need to
> be on medication. The medication would help us and she wouldn't have to
> go through that no more. She kept saying 'No, no.' "
>
> The investigators asked Brandy Mongar if they could search her home,
> and she quickly agreed. Federal court documents show that the officers
> did not find the blanket or girl's clothing that could be seen in the
> photo. They confiscated the family computer, however, but found no
> cameras or anything that would connect the Mongars to the photo,
> according to court records.
>
> Brandy Mongar said the officers told her not to talk to anyone about
> the case - neither family nor friends who could possibly destroy
> evidence for her. If she bumped into her family in town, she was told
> to turn and walk away from them, she said.
>
> "My whole world, in just a matter of minutes, came crashing down on
> me," she said. "It felt like my mom, my sister, my kids were completely
> out of my life."
>
> The next morning, stinging from a killer headache, Brandy Mongar went
> to the store for pain medication. By coincidence, she said, her four
> children were there with her mother, Linda Hopkins.
>
> "My youngest was almost 2 and he said, 'Momma!' I instantly started
> bawling and the kids started crying. I went directly to them. I
> couldn't stay away from my kids. My mom said, 'Brandy, you're going to
> get caught,' and I said, 'I don't care, this isn't right.' "
>
> Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
>
> "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
>
> The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day.
>
>
>
> Attorney uncovers origin of photo
>
> Investigators told the Mongars they had identified the photo as part of
> the series of "Heather" photos available on the Internet. But they did
> not know who may have mailed it until a week later when the Garden
> Grove city attorney, Monty Franklin, who was also acting as the
> courtroom advocate for the Mongar children, recognized similarities
> between the "Heather" photo and photos mailed to Garden Grove city
> officials by Lester and Juanita White complaining about neighborhood
> eyesores, court records show.
>
> A warrant was issued and a search of the Whites' home uncovered more
> child pornography, as well as swinger magazines and home movies of the
> Whites having sex "with each other, and with other men, other women,
> and multiple partners," court documents show.
>
> Lester White told investigators - verbally and in a written confession
> - that he had downloaded the "Heather" photo and other child
> pornography, court documents show.
>
> White later contradicted this at his trial, and in a motion for a new
> trial argued that his son was to blame for the pornography being on the
> family computer.
>
> Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Peyton Gaumer said in court documents
> that White, who was indicted in December 2003, falsely accused Bill
> Mongar of "one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, namely the rape
> of his own daughter."
>
> The ordeal caused Ashley "extreme emotional trauma," he said.
>
> Brandy Mongar said: "The public, the way they treated us, they acted
> like we were really guilty of this. They saw Bill being taken away in a
> police car and everybody said, 'What'd Bill do?' I felt like everyone
> was looking at us."
>
> In June 2004, the family moved to Des Moines, where Bill got a job and
> Brandy went to school.
>
> They returned to the Osceola area nine months later because their
> children missed home, said Brandy Mongar, who is now a full-time
> college student and works part time at a restaurant.
>
> At White's sentencing, Ashley did not want to go on the stand to read
> her victim's statement, so the prosecutor read it for her, her mother
> said.
>
> The family was "ecstatic" when the judge sentenced White to six years
> in prison, she said.
>
> Ashley, now 13, is no longer completely trusting of people, Brandy
> Mongar said.
>
> Ashley has had nightmares, including one where she dreamed she was in a
> bathtub and White was staring at her through a window.
>
> She gets upset if someone outside her immediate family tries to take
> snapshots of her.
>
> "She's seen what pictures can do," Brandy Mongar said.

If you were a cop that got photos like this and the names of possible
perps, would you not investigate, Greg?

By the way, what has this to do with CPS? Other than you posting
something good, finally, about them?

Did you miss this, "too stupid to read what you post?"

"Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.

"They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.

The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day."

Let's hear it for CPS, right Greg? Maybe they DO need to be adequately
funded after all, eh?

0:->

[Greegor]

Kane wrote
> If you were a cop that got photos like this and the names of possible
> perps, would you not investigate, Greg?

Yeah, never mind checking really OBVIOUS inconsistencies
like crooked teeth, or missing tatoos!

> By the way, what has this to do with CPS? Other than you posting
> something good, finally, about them?

People should know just how stupid DHS is.
How did the pedophile downloading thousands of
kiddie porn images still get approved for day care?
Did he have a connection to Mark Foley?

> Did you miss this, "too stupid to read what you post?"
>
> "Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
>
> "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
>
> The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day."

The crooked teeth and tatoo problem came up.
Citizens were still forced to PLEAD with an AGENCY!

> Let's hear it for CPS, right Greg? Maybe they DO need to be adequately
> funded after all, eh?

Let's have an accounting for their budget Kane!
Got some links to their figures?

Some recent reports on spending (TX) show that
foster care gets VAST amounts many times
more EVEN than the largest income maintenance programs!

Got some budget stats, Kane?

If you want to increase the budget, let's see what it IS first!

You up for that?

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Kane wrote
> > If you were a cop that got photos like this and the names of possible
> > perps, would you not investigate, Greg?
>
> Yeah, never mind checking really OBVIOUS inconsistencies
> like crooked teeth, or missing tatoos!
>
> > By the way, what has this to do with CPS? Other than you posting
> > something good, finally, about them?
>
> People should know just how stupid DHS is.

Yep, Sure they should. They should know how stupid you are too. Watch.

> How did the pedophile downloading thousands of
> kiddie porn images still get approved for day care?

Who says he was an approved daycare facility? Under a certain number of
children there is no requirement in most states to register as such.

And, dummy, I said, "what has this to do with *CPS*" Not DHS.

CPS does not, in any state I know, certify licensed day care providers.
It's usually....now get this....a sub agency to the state DEPARTMENT OF
LABOR.

I can see why YOU might be ignorant of this fact....R R R R R RRR R
RR .

> Did he have a connection to Mark Foley?

Darned if I can say, but why not babble your fantasies some more.

Your ignorance is astoundings, Greg. You may be the most ignorant soul
to ever put your little pingers to the keys I've ever run across on The
Web.

> > Did you miss this, "too stupid to read what you post?"
> >
> > "Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> > husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
> >
> > "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> > they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
> >
> > The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day."
>
> The crooked teeth and tatoo problem came up.
> Citizens were still forced to PLEAD with an AGENCY!

"Plead?" They got the kids the SAME PUCKERING DAY YOU STUPID GIT.

What would YOU have said had they just handed the kids over and asked
no questions?

The case hadn't even closed yet, stupid. CPS gave them the children
WITH A POLICE INVESTIGATION STILL UNDERWAY.

Obviously they DID look at the evidence and listen to the parent's
story and return the kids.

The kids weren't waiting in the office for them, they were in a shelter
care facility temporarily, doubtless where the COPS dropped them
off....a most common occurance in police investigations where children
are concerned.

You are such a lying little weasel.

>
> > Let's hear it for CPS, right Greg? Maybe they DO need to be adequately
> > funded after all, eh?
>
> Let's have an accounting for their budget Kane!
> Got some links to their figures?

Sure. Same ones YOU can look up. That's public information.

See how many employees they have, what it costs to prosecute cases,
operational costs, even practice costs. You think BG checks and such
all come free, stupid?

> Some recent reports on spending (TX) show that
> foster care gets VAST amounts many times
> more EVEN than the largest income maintenance programs!

Yet half of what the got decades ago.

And why should you compare these two? What's the basis for criticizm of
the difference in operation.

I know for a fact that it only takes about one tenth the staff to
service such programs than it does to operate a child protection
agency.

>
> Got some budget stats, Kane?
>

Why would you ask a diversionary question, Greg?

Have YOU? If so, post them here.

I already cited the source for the extraordinary cut in Florida funding
that YOUR buddies have been lying about when they claim huge increases.


> If you want to increase the budget, let's see what it IS first!

Florida's budget, like all states, is on line. Look it up.

> You up for that?

Yep, as long as you stop assigning others YOUR work.

I did mine. Now show how that budget, so drastically cut, is actually
adequate based on such things as population growth, increases in crime
in a state with known higher crime stats than average.

Get with YOUR program, Greg. Prove your buddies haven't been lying to
you and us.

0:->

0:->

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Kane wrote
> > If you were a cop that got photos like this and the names of possible
> > perps, would you not investigate, Greg?
>
> Yeah, never mind checking really OBVIOUS inconsistencies
> like crooked teeth, or missing tatoos!
>
> > By the way, what has this to do with CPS? Other than you posting
> > something good, finally, about them?
>
> People should know just how stupid DHS is.

Yep, Sure they should. They should know how stupid you are too. Watch.

> How did the pedophile downloading thousands of
> kiddie porn images still get approved for day care?

Who says he was an approved daycare facility? Under a certain number of
children there is no requirement in most states to register as such.

And, dummy, I said, "what has this to do with *CPS*" Not DHS.

CPS does not, in any state I know, certify licensed day care providers.
It's usually....now get this....a sub agency to the state DEPARTMENT OF
LABOR.

I can see why YOU might be ignorant of this fact....R R R R R RRR R
RR .

> Did he have a connection to Mark Foley?

Darned if I can say, but why not babble your fantasies some more.

Your ignorance is astoundings, Greg. You may be the most ignorant soul
to ever put your little pingers to the keys I've ever run across on The
Web.

> > Did you miss this, "too stupid to read what you post?"
> >
> > "Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> > husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
> >
> > "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> > they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
> >
> > The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day."
>
> The crooked teeth and tatoo problem came up.
> Citizens were still forced to PLEAD with an AGENCY!

"Plead?" They got the kids the SAME PUCKERING DAY YOU STUPID GIT.

What would YOU have said had they just handed the kids over and asked
no questions?

The case hadn't even closed yet, stupid. CPS gave them the children
WITH A POLICE INVESTIGATION STILL UNDERWAY.

Obviously they DID look at the evidence and listen to the parent's
story and return the kids.

The kids weren't waiting in the office for them, they were in a shelter
care facility temporarily, doubtless where the COPS dropped them
off....a most common occurance in police investigations where children
are concerned.

You are such a lying little weasel.

>
> > Let's hear it for CPS, right Greg? Maybe they DO need to be adequately
> > funded after all, eh?
>
> Let's have an accounting for their budget Kane!
> Got some links to their figures?

Sure. Same ones YOU can look up. That's public information.

See how many employees they have, what it costs to prosecute cases,
operational costs, even practice costs. You think BG checks and such
all come free, stupid?

> Some recent reports on spending (TX) show that
> foster care gets VAST amounts many times
> more EVEN than the largest income maintenance programs!

Yet half of what the got decades ago.

And why should you compare these two? What's the basis for criticizm of
the difference in operation.

I know for a fact that it only takes about one tenth the staff to
service such programs than it does to operate a child protection
agency.

>
> Got some budget stats, Kane?
>

Why would you ask a diversionary question, Greg?

Have YOU? If so, post them here.

I already cited the source for the extraordinary cut in Florida funding
that YOUR buddies have been lying about when they claim huge increases.


> If you want to increase the budget, let's see what it IS first!

Florida's budget, like all states, is on line. Look it up.

> You up for that?

Yep, as long as you stop assigning others YOUR work.

I did mine. Now show how that budget, so drastically cut, is actually
adequate based on such things as population growth, increases in crime
in a state with known higher crime stats than average.

Get with YOUR program, Greg. Prove your buddies haven't been lying to
you and us.

0:->

[Greegor]

Kane wrote
> If you were a cop that got photos like this and the names
> of possible perps, would you not investigate, Greg?

G> Yeah, never mind checking really OBVIOUS inconsistencies
> like crooked teeth, or missing tatoos!

Kane wrote
> By the way, what has this to do with CPS? Other than you posting
> something good, finally, about them?

G> People should know just how stupid DHS is.

Kane wrote
> Yep, Sure they should. They should know how stupid you are too. Watch.

Greg wrote
> How did the pedophile downloading thousands of
> kiddie porn images still get approved for day care?

Kane wrote
> Who says he was an approved daycare facility? Under a certain number of
> children there is no requirement in most states to register as such.

Do you think Iowa is "most states"?

Kane wrote
> And, dummy, I said, "what has this to do with *CPS*" Not DHS.

Same agency. It's all Kevin W. Concannon's racket!

Kane wrote
> CPS does not, in any state I know, certify licensed day care providers.
> It's usually....now get this....a sub agency to the state DEPARTMENT OF
> LABOR.
> I can see why YOU might be ignorant of this fact....R R R R...

Especially since it's all under Iowa DHS!

Greg wrote > Did he have a connection to Mark Foley?

K> Darned if I can say, but why not babble your fantasies some more.
> Your ignorance is astoundings, Greg. You may be the most ignorant soul
> to ever put your little pingers to the keys I've ever run across on The
> Web.

You flatterer you!

> > > Did you miss this, "too stupid to read what you post?"
> > >
> > > "Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> > > husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
> > >
> > > "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> > > they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
> > >
> > > The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day."
> >
> > The crooked teeth and tatoo problem came up.
> > Citizens were still forced to PLEAD with an AGENCY!
>
> "Plead?" They got the kids the SAME PUCKERING DAY YOU STUPID GIT.

The photo didn't match! What SAINTS those morons at DHS are!

> What would YOU have said had they just handed the kids over and asked
> no questions?

Photo not matching, no other evidence? Hell yeah!

> The case hadn't even closed yet, stupid. CPS gave them the children
> WITH A POLICE INVESTIGATION STILL UNDERWAY.

I know you are trying to posture that CPS workers are saintly,
but you accidentally pointed out something else INCREDIBLY STUPID!
Why in HELL was a "POLICE INVESTIGATION STILL UNDERWAY" ???

With a family tore up based on obviously BOGUS information??

When they say straight teeth and tatoos, they didn't get a CLUE??

WHY did the mother have to do this "detective work" FOR THEM? Duh?

Kane wrote
> Obviously they DID look at the evidence and listen to the parent's
> story and return the kids.

What was the child removal based on again?


> > Let's have an accounting for their budget Kane!
> > Got some links to their figures?
>
> Sure. Same ones YOU can look up. That's public information.

IT IS? Show me then!


> See how many employees they have, what it costs to prosecute cases,
> operational costs, even practice costs. You think BG checks and such
> all come free, stupid?
>
> > Some recent reports on spending (TX) show that
> > foster care gets VAST amounts many times
> > more EVEN than the largest income maintenance programs!
>
> Yet half of what the got decades ago.
>
> And why should you compare these two? What's the basis for criticizm of
> the difference in operation.

HUGE disproportion!
Financial incentive!
Special Interest.
Motive.


>
> I know for a fact that it only takes about one tenth the staff to
> service such programs than it does to operate a child protection
> agency.
>
> >
> > Got some budget stats, Kane?
> >
>
> Why would you ask a diversionary question, Greg?
>
> Have YOU? If so, post them here.
>
> I already cited the source for the extraordinary cut in Florida funding
> that YOUR buddies have been lying about when they claim huge increases.
>
>
> > If you want to increase the budget, let's see what it IS first!
>
> Florida's budget, like all states, is on line. Look it up.

No Kane, we're talking about IOWA!

Where are the budget details? Breakdowns?
Public information you said!

C'mon! You're pushing for budget increases!

Gotta know what the budget IS first, right??

You wouldn't say that without seeing the budget, WOULD YOU?

Iowa removes children at three times the national rate.

Let's talk about the BUDGET!

I want to see CIETC also!
unrecoverable waste!
Give them more money??

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Kane wrote
> > If you were a cop that got photos like this and the names
> > of possible perps, would you not investigate, Greg?
>
> G> Yeah, never mind checking really OBVIOUS inconsistencies
> > like crooked teeth, or missing tatoos!
>
> Kane wrote
> > By the way, what has this to do with CPS? Other than you posting
> > something good, finally, about them?
>
> G> People should know just how stupid DHS is.
>
> Kane wrote
> > Yep, Sure they should. They should know how stupid you are too. Watch.
>
> Greg wrote
> > How did the pedophile downloading thousands of
> > kiddie porn images still get approved for day care?
>
> Kane wrote
> > Who says he was an approved daycare facility? Under a certain number of
> > children there is no requirement in most states to register as such.
>
> Do you think Iowa is "most states"?

Do you think that Iowa is not one of "most states?"

Instead of providing information that I am not correct, you come up
with your usual smart assed (stupid) bull**** response, Greg.

If they have a different setup, just feel free to list it.

It happens I do know about Iowa, Greg, and CPS and day care licensing
are NOT the same agency. They each are overseen by an umbrella
directorship.

Which you keep referring to instead of answering my actual question. I
didn't ask about DHS, because DHS is NOT the child protection agency in
Iowa. It's simply, as it is in all states, the oversight authority. Who
may or may not catch some detail ... they are NOT going to review every
action of every worker, Greg. They could not. It's not within human
capacity to do so.

I made it plain the CPS, MY response to you, does NOT supervise
licensinging daycare centers.

>
> Kane wrote
> > And, dummy, I said, "what has this to do with *CPS*" Not DHS.
>
> Same agency. It's all Kevin W. Concannon's racket!

No it is not. CPS and day care licensing are totally disconnected. They
simply report through their adminstration to DHS.

And so this story has not a thing to do with DHS. It has to do with day
care. And you still have NOT shown that in Iowa this particular man was
running a day care that required licensing. As I said, under a certain
size and most states to NOT require licensing.

Now simply show us where Iowa does require ALL, even if they have but
one child, and we can reconsider my response.

But of course I'll still ask you what CPS has to do with licensing
there. Child Protect does not license day care in your state to my
knowledge. I can find no such connection.

Can YOU?

> Kane wrote
> > CPS does not, in any state I know, certify licensed day care providers.
> > It's usually....now get this....a sub agency to the state DEPARTMENT OF
> > LABOR.
> > I can see why YOU might be ignorant of this fact....R R R R...
>
> Especially since it's all under Iowa DHS!

Which has nothing to do with this paedophile running a day care
operation. We do not know if he did so with or without a license.

If he was required to be licensed and he wasn't, then who you gonna
blame...the cops?

Who goes out and runs down unlicensed daycare, Greg?

I know for a fact the entire state of Oregon had but four employees to
handle licensing at one time....out of the Dept. Of Labor.

Four for the state.

Could there be a little funding shortfall there?

> Greg wrote > Did he have a connection to Mark Foley?
>
> K> Darned if I can say, but why not babble your fantasies some more.
> > Your ignorance is astoundings, Greg. You may be the most ignorant soul
> > to ever put your little pingers to the keys I've ever run across on The
> > Web.
>
> You flatterer you!

If you think so, you are a still bigger fool and evil ****ant than I
thought.

> > > > Did you miss this, "too stupid to read what you post?"
> > > >
> > > > "Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> > > > husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
> > > >
> > > > "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> > > > they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
> > > >
> > > > The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day."
> > >
> > > The crooked teeth and tatoo problem came up.
> > > Citizens were still forced to PLEAD with an AGENCY!
> >
> > "Plead?" They got the kids the SAME PUCKERING DAY YOU STUPID GIT.
>
> The photo didn't match! What SAINTS those morons at DHS are!

How would they know that until they had been told?

Now are you criticizing them for doing their jobs as they are supposed
to, AND managing to get those children back the same day they were
contacted?

> > What would YOU have said had they just handed the kids over and asked
> > no questions?
>
> Photo not matching, no other evidence? Hell yeah!

You don't know if they HAD the photo, stupid. Likely NOT. It was police
evidence.

You think they just hand that around, do you? Child porno evidence?

The parents made their argument, CPS got it, and got their children to
them the same day.
>
> > The case hadn't even closed yet, stupid. CPS gave them the children
> > WITH A POLICE INVESTIGATION STILL UNDERWAY.
>
> I know you are trying to posture that CPS workers are saintly,

Really? You are stupid then.

> but you accidentally pointed out something else INCREDIBLY STUPID!
> Why in HELL was a "POLICE INVESTIGATION STILL UNDERWAY" ???

Because the police doing criminal investigations are very very invested
in doing it right and NOT losing the perps. One step at a time. Ask a
cop.

> With a family tore up based on obviously BOGUS information??

Go to the cop newsgroups and take it up.

I made NO comment about the cops, but instead about CPS which YOU
brought up by posting the article that included them.

> When they say straight teeth and tatoos, they didn't get a CLUE??

You missed what they said, and what the mother replied.

They mentioned that photos can be digitally altered. The mother came
back with, "I don't own a digital camera," showing that she does not
understand Photoshop and scanners.
>
> WHY did the mother have to do this "detective work" FOR THEM? Duh?

She doesn't. She has to answer questions or not, as she sees fit.

What's the beef with CPS, Greg? Stay on topic, for once. Or take this
to the LEO newsgroups and pitch your bitch there. I don't discuss cops
all that much other than to point out how plumb suckin' ignorant you
are about police work as well as CPS work.
>
> Kane wrote
> > Obviously they DID look at the evidence and listen to the parent's
> > story and return the kids.
>
> What was the child removal based on again?

They did not remove the child. They received the child either by court
order, or the police, who in most areas are authorized to make
removals, placed the child in a shelter. Very common occurance. Ask a
cop.

CPS is NOT going to refuse a legal authorized placement by a cop, Greg.
They cannot stop every one and do and instant investigation before the
cop leaves and tell him or her yes or no.

They do that later, just as YOU pointed out by posting the article that
described CPS returning the child apparently the same day they were
removed.

> > > Let's have an accounting for their budget Kane!
> > > Got some links to their figures?
> >
> > Sure. Same ones YOU can look up. That's public information.
>
> IT IS? Show me then!

No. If YOU don't know that budget information is public, except for
national security budgets, as to line item, then Greg, you are
hopelessly lost in this world.

It's public information. Go look it up.

>
> > See how many employees they have, what it costs to prosecute cases,
> > operational costs, even practice costs. You think BG checks and such
> > all come free, stupid?
> >
> > > Some recent reports on spending (TX) show that
> > > foster care gets VAST amounts many times
> > > more EVEN than the largest income maintenance programs!
> >
> > Yet half of what the got decades ago.
> >
> > And why should you compare these two? What's the basis for criticizm of
> > the difference in operation.
>
> HUGE disproportion!
> Financial incentive!
> Special Interest.
> Motive.

And both different agencies.

With different mandates.

If they had the same budget I'd be more than surprized.

My best guess is that each has a proportionately equal budget based on
workload.

And you still have not answered my question. You've simply stated what
you think, your opinion, on the matter.

Show us the money...give us the data...provide some support besides
your stinking opinion.
>
> > I know for a fact that it only takes about one tenth the staff to
> > service such programs than it does to operate a child protection
> > agency.
> >
> > >
> > > Got some budget stats, Kane?
> > >
> >
> > Why would you ask a diversionary question, Greg?
> >
> > Have YOU? If so, post them here.
> >
> > I already cited the source for the extraordinary cut in Florida funding
> > that YOUR buddies have been lying about when they claim huge increases.
> >
> >
> > > If you want to increase the budget, let's see what it IS first!
> >
> > Florida's budget, like all states, is on line. Look it up.
>
> No Kane, we're talking about IOWA!

Greg, when the question of budget, money, came up, I quoted Florida. IF
you have something that proves Iowa has not taken budget cuts during
the past 20 to 30 years, please post it, or be known for the lazy assed
lying little prune sucker you are.

> Where are the budget details? Breakdowns?
> Public information you said!

You are in Iowa. YOU prove it.
>
> C'mon! You're pushing for budget increases!

You are pushing for budget cuts based on overfunding.

YOU prove that exists.
>
> Gotta know what the budget IS first, right??
>
Yep. You should have thought of that before claiming Iowa is
overfunded.

Of didn't you claim that?

> You wouldn't say that without seeing the budget, WOULD YOU?
>
> Iowa removes children at three times the national rate.

Show the figures. This has been thrown around a lot but no one that
makes the claim actually comes up with the figures based on RATE, nor
any clear definition of terms.
>
> Let's talk about the BUDGET!
>
> I want to see CIETC also!
> unrecoverable waste!
> Give them more money??

My my, aren't we on a rant today.

And just how much tax do you pay, personally, out of your 'income,'
from work?

Did you report your income from those cans and bottle deposts?

0:->

[dragonsgirl]

"Greegor" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Kane wrote
>> If you were a cop that got photos like this and the names of possible
>> perps, would you not investigate, Greg?
>
> Yeah, never mind checking really OBVIOUS inconsistencies
> like crooked teeth, or missing tatoos!

Greg, that is so stupid.
Every day I remove tattoos from photos, add make up, remove parts of
clothing, replace hair, change eye colors, remove water stains, add people,
remove people, hell, I can even take out a whole building, or add a whole
building. I can put a person in any setting I want, or make a setting to
appear to be anything I want.
A few years ago I took a photo of my father playing in a field and added his
wife from a photo of her from about the same age and no one could tell that
they weren't in that field playing together when the picture was
taken...looked like two kids holding hands, just as natural as you please.
With digital manipulations there is no such thing as 'obvious'.
They say one picture can tell a thousand words, but after I get ahold of it
it can tell a lifetime story, so there are no garantees to what you see
anymore. Crooked teeth and missing tattoos mean nothing.
Oh, and those *******s at DFS took a whole day to figure it out? LOL What
a bitch.


>
>> By the way, what has this to do with CPS? Other than you posting
>> something good, finally, about them?
>
> People should know just how stupid DHS is.
> How did the pedophile downloading thousands of
> kiddie porn images still get approved for day care?
> Did he have a connection to Mark Foley?
>
>> Did you miss this, "too stupid to read what you post?"
>>
>> "Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
>> husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
>>
>> "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
>> they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
>>
>> The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day."
>
> The crooked teeth and tatoo problem came up.
> Citizens were still forced to PLEAD with an AGENCY!
>
>> Let's hear it for CPS, right Greg? Maybe they DO need to be adequately
>> funded after all, eh?
>
> Let's have an accounting for their budget Kane!
> Got some links to their figures?
>
> Some recent reports on spending (TX) show that
> foster care gets VAST amounts many times
> more EVEN than the largest income maintenance programs!
>
> Got some budget stats, Kane?
>
> If you want to increase the budget, let's see what it IS first!
>
> You up for that?
>

[Greegor]

Betty Wirsen wrote
> Every day I remove tattoos from photos, add make up, remove parts of...
[ digital photo editing, I get it.. ]

Betty, that works BOTH ways though.

Photo editing as you describe means that
pictures are NOT credible!

Therefore WHY was there a presumption of guilt?

What if the PERV had edited the photo to make
it match better than he did?

[Dan Sullivan]

Greegor wrote:
> Betty Wirsen wrote
> > Every day I remove tattoos from photos, add make up, remove parts of...
> [ digital photo editing, I get it.. ]
>
> Betty, that works BOTH ways though.
>
> Photo editing as you describe means that
> pictures are NOT credible!

True.

> Therefore WHY was there a presumption of guilt?

There was a picture that appeared to be accurate.

> What if the PERV had edited the photo to make
> it match better than he did?

Then the case would have been that much more difficult.

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Betty Wirsen wrote
>> Every day I remove tattoos from photos, add make up, remove parts of...
> [ digital photo editing, I get it.. ]

Wow....you KNEW SOMETHING? Well, shut my mouth.

> Betty, that works BOTH ways though.

That's not the immediate concern. Photo analysis for manipulation takes
a bit of time. While that time is passing the alleged perp could
possibly either influence by persuasion, or death, the alleged victim.

> Photo editing as you describe means that
> pictures are NOT credible!

No, it means that some might be, and some might not. Your quick jump to
conclusions will be your downfall one day, Greg. I see you do stupid
things in this newsgroup that indeed, indicate foolish, and dangerous
conclusion jumping.

> Therefore WHY was there a presumption of guilt?

You mistake cop language for interviewing with "presumption" of
anything. They just test the waters with exclamations and see what jumps
out on shore.

It's amazing how the guilty will sometimes just blurt out their
confession. Almost with no prompting.

> What if the PERV had edited the photo to make
> it match better than he did?

Then this would be a longer conversation with my explaining to you
things that are waaaaaay over your head about how the real world works.

As yet I know of no way to manipulate photos digitally (not that I think
it can't be done) where it cannot be, under examination by trained photo
interpreters, recognized as manipulated.

I suppose with enough hours, and a good pixel by pixel editor one might
pull it off, but highly unlikely. ONE mistake stands out to a trained
eye like a flashing neon sign.

And photos can't manipulate themselves, so that mistake is a sure
telltale that someone did in fact change the photo.

Now, the other part.

You presume that unless there is already incontrovertible evidence that
the suspects should be immediately let go.

That IS how you come across.

Police are mandated to investigate, regardless of the level of evidence
in their hand if there is any reasonable cause for suspicion.

If someone calls and said you molested a child, and identifies
themselves, you do not, if you are a cop, say, "Prove it to the point of
being admissible in court and we'll come out and ask a question or two."


But the, like I said, you fascinate me with your ability to think like a
con.

You see, Greg, if you are in the vicinity of a bank robbery, and a cop
stops you because you look like or are driving a car that was described
as being the getaway car, he does NOT have to NOT question you just
because he doesn't have the bank surveillance video to compare to your
mug -- yet.

Someone said, and it only turned out LATER he was a perp himself, that
he knew someone was molesting their child, and provided a pic of a child
of the right sex, and about the right age, as nearly as one can tell
from a photo. And cops know that pics can be manipulated to do things
like remove marks and tattoos. And even straighten teeth.

I suppose YOU wouldn't investigate. Is that correct?

Why not if not?

And again, CPS did their investigation in apparently a few minutes, and
found in favor of the family, returned the children the same day,
apparently, and you STILL want to blame them.

Why are you NOT answering my early comments that explains the normal
case practice sequence, and the simple logistics involved and the fact
CPS found in their favor, despite you and other's lies here that CPS is
always out to get you?

0:->

[Greegor]

Kane wrote
> No, it means that some might be, and some might not. Your quick jump to
> conclusions will be your downfall one day, Greg. I see you do stupid
> things in this newsgroup that indeed, indicate foolish, and dangerous
> conclusion jumping.

Why do you keep using gay idiomatic language?

[Dan Sullivan]

Greegor wrote:
> Kane wrote
> > No, it means that some might be, and some might not. Your quick jump to
> > conclusions will be your downfall one day, Greg. I see you do stupid
> > things in this newsgroup that indeed, indicate foolish, and dangerous
> > conclusion jumping.
>
> Why do you keep using gay idiomatic language?

Why do you think normal words and phrases are "gay idiomatic language,"
Greg?

[Greegor]

Dan Sullivan wrote:
> Greegor wrote:
> > Kane wrote
> > > No, it means that some might be, and some might not. Your quick jump to
> > > conclusions will be your downfall one day, Greg. I see you do stupid
> > > things in this newsgroup that indeed, indicate foolish, and dangerous
> > > conclusion jumping.
> >
> > Why do you keep using gay idiomatic language?
>
> Why do you think normal words and phrases are "gay idiomatic language,"
> Greg?

"and dangerous conclusion jumping"

Did you move from Long Island to "The Village" Dan?

"Thay there thilly boy"!

[Basil Amir]

"Greegor" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dan Sullivan wrote:
>> Greegor wrote:
>> > Kane wrote
>> > > No, it means that some might be, and some might not. Your quick jump
>> > > to
>> > > conclusions will be your downfall one day, Greg. I see you do stupid
>> > > things in this newsgroup that indeed, indicate foolish, and dangerous
>> > > conclusion jumping.
>> >
>> > Why do you keep using gay idiomatic language?
>>
>> Why do you think normal words and phrases are "gay idiomatic language,"
>> Greg?
>
> "and dangerous conclusion jumping"
>
> Did you move from Long Island to "The Village" Dan?
>
> "Thay there thilly boy"!

Shhhhhh ... we're not suppose to know. hehehe

>

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Dan Sullivan wrote:
> > Greegor wrote:
> > > Kane wrote
> > > > No, it means that some might be, and some might not. Your quick jump to
> > > > conclusions will be your downfall one day, Greg. I see you do stupid
> > > > things in this newsgroup that indeed, indicate foolish, and dangerous
> > > > conclusion jumping.
> > >
> > > Why do you keep using gay idiomatic language?
> >
> > Why do you think normal words and phrases are "gay idiomatic language,"
> > Greg?
>
> "and dangerous conclusion jumping"

Where is that used as gay idiomatic language, Greg? Provide some
examples, say from printed material.

Or, have you friends, the ones you must be hanging out with, to know
this is in the vernacular.

Where DO you spend your leisure time these days, Greg?
>
> Did you move from Long Island to "The Village" Dan?

Well, Dan not knowing this "idiomatic" language form you seem privy to
strongly suggests one of you moved to the Villiage, Greg but it's not
Dan.

By the way, I wrote the prose you are referring to, so why are you
asking Dan such questions?
>
> "Thay there thilly boy"!

You quoted Dan?

I just recall you celebrating with Doan that I used a paraphrasing
quote device claiming it was a false accusation, Greg. Do you wish that
standard applied to you, or could it be you think you are "special?"

You just love that double standard don't you, you ethically challenged
baboon?

I have known gay people, male and female, since I was about 5 years
old, Greg. Never once heard that "idiom."

Lisping is no more a "gay" thing than being an interior decorator. Nor
are effeminate affectations a sure sign of a male gay person. I've met
some formidable cocksmen with long lists of female conquest that were
quite "swishy." They weren't the least homosexual in preference.

Nor are all women athletic instructor butches. Nor do they hate men.
Personally I've had very affectionate friendships with lesbians. We do
joke occasionally about our "competition" though. R R R R .

It's an inside joke, since gays tend not to go after straights as
sexual partners.

Your ignorance is appalling, but it does have one use.

It will serve to remind any reader that people like you are wandering
about out of your cages and we have to stuff you back into them or you
may well go all Nazi on us again, like you did in the 30's.

In fact, I note you and your kind are making a comeback. Racists,
homophobes, and other fundamentalist thinking haters.

This time we'll see to it it's the last time. Trust me on this. There's
already a lot going on to idenify and watch such people. You target us,
the non-haters, non-bigots, you can expect to be targetted. It works
that way.

In fact, you may notice we've gotten some laws passed. Think about it.

0:->

[Greegor]

"and dangerous conclusion jumping" ???

Dan said it was normal english!

[Greegor]

Kane wrote > "and dangerous conclusion jumping" ???

Greg wrote > Dan said it was normal english!

Normal in the gay community maybe!

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Kane wrote > "and dangerous conclusion jumping" ???
>
> Greg wrote > Dan said it was normal english!
>
> Normal in the gay community maybe!

How would you know that?

I've never heard it before as especially significant to the gay
community and I know a lot of homosexual folks.

I think you are busy with your fantacies.

You sure were earlier when you simply rewrote the posts that
established the criminal histories in the case of the murdered social
worker.

Man you are straaaaange.

Now tell us what the meaning is, and provide us a few examples. Such
things tend to get into print often, if it's cultural jargon of any
kind.

On googling all I can find are some common uses of the word by peopel
discussing community issues for gays.

No "special secret vile eroticism" implied or stated.

Got anything, but your imagination?

And I am anxious to GET DAN SULLIVAN for his felonious copy and paste
from a 'private' (is that like secret as in Secret Decoder Ring?)
parent's rights support group.

This wait is killing me.

How am I going to discredit him if you won't help?

0:-]

[Greegor]

Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of

Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.

smacking knuckles with butter knives???
couldn't stop smoking even for day care kids?

After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.

Daycare was their primary income???

Of all the privacy rights threatened everyday for security,
can't they track the pervs who download kiddy porn more?
What are the odds that a perv who downloads
kiddy porn also molested kids?







http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061112/NEWS...


False sex-abuse claims leave cloud over family
By JENNIFER JACOBS REGISTER STAFF WRITER
November 12, 2006

Osceola, Ia. - The photograph of a naked man about to rape a screaming
girl arrived at the state child abuse investigators' office in an
anonymous envelope five years ago.

A simple message was marked on the back of the photo: "Ashley Mongar,
Friendly Acres Trailer Park, Lot 20, Osceola, Iowa. Photographer:
Brandy Mongar."

During the police investigation that followed, Ashley Mongar, then 8
years old, was pulled out of school, shown the explicit photograph, and

examined by her doctor for signs of sexual intercourse. She tearfully
denied any abuse. But police, uncertain whether to believe her, put her

father in jail, interrogated her mother, and removed her three siblings

from their parents' custody.

Within two days, investigators uncovered the truth: Brandy and Bill
Mongar had been framed.

But a cloud of public suspicion has followed the Mongars for the past
five years.

Federal prosecutors later proved that Lester John White Jr., 51, a
Garden Grove man who had a grudge against the Mongars, searched through

pedophilia sites on the Internet until he found a photo of a child who
resembled Ashley Mongar. Then White made "a vengeful false child abuse
report" against her parents, prosecutors said.

White admitted in his trial last winter that five days before Christmas

in 2001, he anonymously mailed the downloaded image to the Iowa
Department of Human Services office in Osceola.

White insisted he did so out of concern for Ashley. His defense lawyer,

Nick Drees, contended that a conviction would deter others from
reporting suspected abuse if they could be held criminally liable for
handing over evidence that includes child pornography.

But a federal judge found White guilty of three charges for receiving,
possessing and distributing child pornography.

The photo he claimed was of the Mongars was actually part of "the
Heather series," a widely distributed collection of child pornography,
investigators testified.

White was sentenced last month to six years in prison.

With White heading off to prison soon, the five-year saga Bill and
Brandy Mongar lived through finally came to an end. But before it
ended, some of the Mongars' friends grew distant, both lost their jobs,

and they ended up moving away from Osceola for a while.

Accusations arise from care dispute

A feud between the Mongar family and the White family began in May
2001. Lester White's wife, Juanita, who provided child care for the
Mongar children, sued Brandy and Bill Mongar for child care fees.

Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of

Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.

After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.

In November 2001, Lester White downloaded the image of "Heather" being
sexually abused, but he waited until Dec. 20 to mail it to the DHS,
investigators testified.

U.S. Postal Inspector Kevin Marshall and Osceola police investigator
Charles Beeker went to Ashley's elementary school to determine whether
she was, indeed, the child in the photo, court documents state.

Beeker knew the Mongar family and "believed it was certainly her,"
according to court testimony.

However, when Marshall met the girl, he was not convinced.

Police asked Brandy and Bill Mongar, who were then manager and
assistant manager at a KFC restaurant in Osceola, to go to the Osceola
Police Department. They arrested Bill on a warrant for failing to pay
traffic fines.

Brandy Mongar said, "They read me my rights and slapped this picture
down in front of my face and said, 'This is your daughter.' "

She said she reacted to "the horror of the photo," which showed a young

girl lying on a bed and a man, whose genitals were in full view,
performing a sex act on her.

"I started screaming. I kept saying, 'This is not my daughter! Oh my
God!' and I started crying, and it was just a horrible ordeal," she
remembered.

What was immediately obvious to the mother was that the girl in the
photo had crooked teeth, while her own daughter's teeth are "perfect,"
she said.

And the man in the photo had no tattoo on his hand or leg, while Bill
Mongar has tattoos in both places.

When she pointed these details out, the investigators told her
alterations were possible with a digital photo. She responded that she
didn't own a digital camera.

"I said, 'I want my kids,' " Mongar recalled. "My fear was my kids were

gone, and I didn't know where they were going."

Girl told, 'Your parents are sick'

Ashley and her younger sister, who police had taken from her
kindergarten classroom, were in separate rooms elsewhere at the police
station, Brandy Mongar said. It was 10 hours before the girls were able

to leave with their grandmother, whom DHS officials had asked to care
for all four Mongar children.

"I understand why they did it," Brandy Mongar said. "If something like
that had really happened, they need to take all the precautionary steps

they have to do."

The situation was no less painful when Ashley later told her mother the

questions the male officers asked her.

"She was scared because she's in this room alone with no one she knows
and these guys kept telling her: 'We know this is you,' " Brandy Mongar

said. "They said, 'Your parents are sick people,' and that we need to
be on medication. The medication would help us and she wouldn't have to

go through that no more. She kept saying 'No, no.' "

The investigators asked Brandy Mongar if they could search her home,
and she quickly agreed. Federal court documents show that the officers
did not find the blanket or girl's clothing that could be seen in the
photo. They confiscated the family computer, however, but found no
cameras or anything that would connect the Mongars to the photo,
according to court records.

Brandy Mongar said the officers told her not to talk to anyone about
the case - neither family nor friends who could possibly destroy
evidence for her. If she bumped into her family in town, she was told
to turn and walk away from them, she said.

"My whole world, in just a matter of minutes, came crashing down on
me," she said. "It felt like my mom, my sister, my kids were completely

out of my life."

The next morning, stinging from a killer headache, Brandy Mongar went
to the store for pain medication. By coincidence, she said, her four
children were there with her mother, Linda Hopkins.

"My youngest was almost 2 and he said, 'Momma!' I instantly started
bawling and the kids started crying. I went directly to them. I
couldn't stay away from my kids. My mom said, 'Brandy, you're going to
get caught,' and I said, 'I don't care, this isn't right.' "

Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.

"They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.

The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day.

Attorney uncovers origin of photo

Investigators told the Mongars they had identified the photo as part of

the series of "Heather" photos available on the Internet. But they did
not know who may have mailed it until a week later when the Garden
Grove city attorney, Monty Franklin, who was also acting as the
courtroom advocate for the Mongar children, recognized similarities
between the "Heather" photo and photos mailed to Garden Grove city
officials by Lester and Juanita White complaining about neighborhood
eyesores, court records show.

A warrant was issued and a search of the Whites' home uncovered more
child pornography, as well as swinger magazines and home movies of the
Whites having sex "with each other, and with other men, other women,
and multiple partners," court documents show.

Lester White told investigators - verbally and in a written confession
- that he had downloaded the "Heather" photo and other child
pornography, court documents show.

White later contradicted this at his trial, and in a motion for a new
trial argued that his son was to blame for the pornography being on the

family computer.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Peyton Gaumer said in court documents
that White, who was indicted in December 2003, falsely accused Bill
Mongar of "one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, namely the rape
of his own daughter."

The ordeal caused Ashley "extreme emotional trauma," he said.

Brandy Mongar said: "The public, the way they treated us, they acted
like we were really guilty of this. They saw Bill being taken away in a

police car and everybody said, 'What'd Bill do?' I felt like everyone
was looking at us."

In June 2004, the family moved to Des Moines, where Bill got a job and
Brandy went to school.

They returned to the Osceola area nine months later because their
children missed home, said Brandy Mongar, who is now a full-time
college student and works part time at a restaurant.

At White's sentencing, Ashley did not want to go on the stand to read
her victim's statement, so the prosecutor read it for her, her mother
said.

The family was "ecstatic" when the judge sentenced White to six years
in prison, she said.

Ashley, now 13, is no longer completely trusting of people, Brandy
Mongar said.

Ashley has had nightmares, including one where she dreamed she was in a

bathtub and White was staring at her through a window.

She gets upset if someone outside her immediate family tries to take
snapshots of her.

"She's seen what pictures can do," Brandy Mongar said.

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of
>
> Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
> butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
> One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
> hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.
>
> smacking knuckles with butter knives???

You have some question? Could you be more specific?

> couldn't stop smoking even for day care kids?

Well, that's the claim. Again, could you be more specific if you are
actually asking a question?

> After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
> Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
> the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.
>
> Daycare was their primary income???

Didn't you recently reply to me that your "job" was "child care?"

And again, what kind of a question is that?

What is it you wish to know?

Are you suggesting that daycare might not be a family's business and
provide their primary income?

When one see's the word "primary" one can assume secondary, tertiary,
etc etc etc.

> Of all the privacy rights threatened everyday for security,
> can't they track the pervs who download kiddy porn more?

How? Are you forgetting the Constitution now?

> What are the odds that a perv who downloads
> kiddy porn also molested kids?

Good question. Are you really wanting an answer, or is it yet another
rhetorical "blaming?"

So, look up the odds if you will.

If you can't find them, and you know it's unlikely, then you have more
likely asked yet another of your diversionary self excusing
rhetorically loaded questions.

You've made no contribution about this story, other than to pretend to
curiousity.

Got any to make?

0:-]

>
>
> http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061112/NEWS...
>
>
> False sex-abuse claims leave cloud over family
> By JENNIFER JACOBS REGISTER STAFF WRITER
> November 12, 2006
>
> Osceola, Ia. - The photograph of a naked man about to rape a screaming
> girl arrived at the state child abuse investigators' office in an
> anonymous envelope five years ago.
>
> A simple message was marked on the back of the photo: "Ashley Mongar,
> Friendly Acres Trailer Park, Lot 20, Osceola, Iowa. Photographer:
> Brandy Mongar."
>
> During the police investigation that followed, Ashley Mongar, then 8
> years old, was pulled out of school, shown the explicit photograph, and
>
> examined by her doctor for signs of sexual intercourse. She tearfully
> denied any abuse. But police, uncertain whether to believe her, put her
>
> father in jail, interrogated her mother, and removed her three siblings
>
> from their parents' custody.
>
> Within two days, investigators uncovered the truth: Brandy and Bill
> Mongar had been framed.
>
> But a cloud of public suspicion has followed the Mongars for the past
> five years.
>
> Federal prosecutors later proved that Lester John White Jr., 51, a
> Garden Grove man who had a grudge against the Mongars, searched through
>
> pedophilia sites on the Internet until he found a photo of a child who
> resembled Ashley Mongar. Then White made "a vengeful false child abuse
> report" against her parents, prosecutors said.
>
> White admitted in his trial last winter that five days before Christmas
>
> in 2001, he anonymously mailed the downloaded image to the Iowa
> Department of Human Services office in Osceola.
>
> White insisted he did so out of concern for Ashley. His defense lawyer,
>
> Nick Drees, contended that a conviction would deter others from
> reporting suspected abuse if they could be held criminally liable for
> handing over evidence that includes child pornography.
>
> But a federal judge found White guilty of three charges for receiving,
> possessing and distributing child pornography.
>
> The photo he claimed was of the Mongars was actually part of "the
> Heather series," a widely distributed collection of child pornography,
> investigators testified.
>
> White was sentenced last month to six years in prison.
>
> With White heading off to prison soon, the five-year saga Bill and
> Brandy Mongar lived through finally came to an end. But before it
> ended, some of the Mongars' friends grew distant, both lost their jobs,
>
> and they ended up moving away from Osceola for a while.
>
> Accusations arise from care dispute
>
> A feud between the Mongar family and the White family began in May
> 2001. Lester White's wife, Juanita, who provided child care for the
> Mongar children, sued Brandy and Bill Mongar for child care fees.
>
> Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of
>
> Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
> butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
> One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
> hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.
>
> After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
> Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
> the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.
>
> In November 2001, Lester White downloaded the image of "Heather" being
> sexually abused, but he waited until Dec. 20 to mail it to the DHS,
> investigators testified.
>
> U.S. Postal Inspector Kevin Marshall and Osceola police investigator
> Charles Beeker went to Ashley's elementary school to determine whether
> she was, indeed, the child in the photo, court documents state.
>
> Beeker knew the Mongar family and "believed it was certainly her,"
> according to court testimony.
>
> However, when Marshall met the girl, he was not convinced.
>
> Police asked Brandy and Bill Mongar, who were then manager and
> assistant manager at a KFC restaurant in Osceola, to go to the Osceola
> Police Department. They arrested Bill on a warrant for failing to pay
> traffic fines.
>
> Brandy Mongar said, "They read me my rights and slapped this picture
> down in front of my face and said, 'This is your daughter.' "
>
> She said she reacted to "the horror of the photo," which showed a young
>
> girl lying on a bed and a man, whose genitals were in full view,
> performing a sex act on her.
>
> "I started screaming. I kept saying, 'This is not my daughter! Oh my
> God!' and I started crying, and it was just a horrible ordeal," she
> remembered.
>
> What was immediately obvious to the mother was that the girl in the
> photo had crooked teeth, while her own daughter's teeth are "perfect,"
> she said.
>
> And the man in the photo had no tattoo on his hand or leg, while Bill
> Mongar has tattoos in both places.
>
> When she pointed these details out, the investigators told her
> alterations were possible with a digital photo. She responded that she
> didn't own a digital camera.
>
> "I said, 'I want my kids,' " Mongar recalled. "My fear was my kids were
>
> gone, and I didn't know where they were going."
>
> Girl told, 'Your parents are sick'
>
> Ashley and her younger sister, who police had taken from her
> kindergarten classroom, were in separate rooms elsewhere at the police
> station, Brandy Mongar said. It was 10 hours before the girls were able
>
> to leave with their grandmother, whom DHS officials had asked to care
> for all four Mongar children.
>
> "I understand why they did it," Brandy Mongar said. "If something like
> that had really happened, they need to take all the precautionary steps
>
> they have to do."
>
> The situation was no less painful when Ashley later told her mother the
>
> questions the male officers asked her.
>
> "She was scared because she's in this room alone with no one she knows
> and these guys kept telling her: 'We know this is you,' " Brandy Mongar
>
> said. "They said, 'Your parents are sick people,' and that we need to
> be on medication. The medication would help us and she wouldn't have to
>
> go through that no more. She kept saying 'No, no.' "
>
> The investigators asked Brandy Mongar if they could search her home,
> and she quickly agreed. Federal court documents show that the officers
> did not find the blanket or girl's clothing that could be seen in the
> photo. They confiscated the family computer, however, but found no
> cameras or anything that would connect the Mongars to the photo,
> according to court records.
>
> Brandy Mongar said the officers told her not to talk to anyone about
> the case - neither family nor friends who could possibly destroy
> evidence for her. If she bumped into her family in town, she was told
> to turn and walk away from them, she said.
>
> "My whole world, in just a matter of minutes, came crashing down on
> me," she said. "It felt like my mom, my sister, my kids were completely
>
> out of my life."
>
> The next morning, stinging from a killer headache, Brandy Mongar went
> to the store for pain medication. By coincidence, she said, her four
> children were there with her mother, Linda Hopkins.
>
> "My youngest was almost 2 and he said, 'Momma!' I instantly started
> bawling and the kids started crying. I went directly to them. I
> couldn't stay away from my kids. My mom said, 'Brandy, you're going to
> get caught,' and I said, 'I don't care, this isn't right.' "
>
> Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
>
> "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
>
> The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day.
>
> Attorney uncovers origin of photo
>
> Investigators told the Mongars they had identified the photo as part of
>
> the series of "Heather" photos available on the Internet. But they did
> not know who may have mailed it until a week later when the Garden
> Grove city attorney, Monty Franklin, who was also acting as the
> courtroom advocate for the Mongar children, recognized similarities
> between the "Heather" photo and photos mailed to Garden Grove city
> officials by Lester and Juanita White complaining about neighborhood
> eyesores, court records show.
>
> A warrant was issued and a search of the Whites' home uncovered more
> child pornography, as well as swinger magazines and home movies of the
> Whites having sex "with each other, and with other men, other women,
> and multiple partners," court documents show.
>
> Lester White told investigators - verbally and in a written confession
> - that he had downloaded the "Heather" photo and other child
> pornography, court documents show.
>
> White later contradicted this at his trial, and in a motion for a new
> trial argued that his son was to blame for the pornography being on the
>
> family computer.
>
> Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Peyton Gaumer said in court documents
> that White, who was indicted in December 2003, falsely accused Bill
> Mongar of "one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, namely the rape
> of his own daughter."
>
> The ordeal caused Ashley "extreme emotional trauma," he said.
>
> Brandy Mongar said: "The public, the way they treated us, they acted
> like we were really guilty of this. They saw Bill being taken away in a
>
> police car and everybody said, 'What'd Bill do?' I felt like everyone
> was looking at us."
>
> In June 2004, the family moved to Des Moines, where Bill got a job and
> Brandy went to school.
>
> They returned to the Osceola area nine months later because their
> children missed home, said Brandy Mongar, who is now a full-time
> college student and works part time at a restaurant.
>
> At White's sentencing, Ashley did not want to go on the stand to read
> her victim's statement, so the prosecutor read it for her, her mother
> said.
>
> The family was "ecstatic" when the judge sentenced White to six years
> in prison, she said.
>
> Ashley, now 13, is no longer completely trusting of people, Brandy
> Mongar said.
>
> Ashley has had nightmares, including one where she dreamed she was in a
>
> bathtub and White was staring at her through a window.
>
> She gets upset if someone outside her immediate family tries to take
> snapshots of her.
>
> "She's seen what pictures can do," Brandy Mongar said.

[0:->]

0:-> wrote:

.... I am so fond of educating Greg, and so inspired by the ignorance of
he and other posters here on issues of law that I just have to visit
this little gem more precisely......

> Greegor wrote:

....snip unrelated....


>> Of all the privacy rights threatened everyday for security,

Yes, a very real concern. And being dealt with in our courts.

>> can't they track the pervs who download kiddy porn more?
>
> How? Are you forgetting the Constitution now?

My question was meant to trigger some thinking in you, but I just can't
trust in that.

Greg, are you suggesting that because some privacy rights are being
threatened more should be?

Or are you accusing the government of not being INTRUSIVE enough?

Your questions tend to create MORE confusion rather than invite more
clarity.

And Greg, on this issue you are wrong. They ARE tracking pervs that
download kiddie-porn. I kind of wonder if you aren't being tracked as
one of many visitors to the Myspace website.

But then you would have had to do something to trigger a legal
surveillance of you. Did you?

Do you hope they ignored the constitutional restraints and have started
tracking you?

If they did, then trust me, they won't just look for kiddie porn. That
would be a waste of resource. The software that is used very likely is
programmable to look for a long string of words and character clusters
that would trigger a closer look.

So basically the authorities would have to be probing pretty much ALL
traffic at a website to find the pervs you bring up.

Want that do you?

What happened to your Constitutional defense of parents rights? Some of
those folks might be just kids, and parents, all innocent.

Have I ever mentioned your tendency to the double standard, Greg?

0:-}





>
>> What are the odds that a perv who downloads
>> kiddy porn also molested kids?
>
> Good question. Are you really wanting an answer, or is it yet another
> rhetorical "blaming?"
>
> So, look up the odds if you will.
>
> If you can't find them, and you know it's unlikely, then you have more
> likely asked yet another of your diversionary self excusing
> rhetorically loaded questions.
>
> You've made no contribution about this story, other than to pretend to
> curiousity.
>
> Got any to make?
>
> 0:-]
>
>>
>> http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061112/NEWS...
>>
>>
>> False sex-abuse claims leave cloud over family
>> By JENNIFER JACOBS REGISTER STAFF WRITER
>> November 12, 2006
>>
>> Osceola, Ia. - The photograph of a naked man about to rape a screaming
>> girl arrived at the state child abuse investigators' office in an
>> anonymous envelope five years ago.
>>
>> A simple message was marked on the back of the photo: "Ashley Mongar,
>> Friendly Acres Trailer Park, Lot 20, Osceola, Iowa. Photographer:
>> Brandy Mongar."
>>
>> During the police investigation that followed, Ashley Mongar, then 8
>> years old, was pulled out of school, shown the explicit photograph, and
>>
>> examined by her doctor for signs of sexual intercourse. She tearfully
>> denied any abuse. But police, uncertain whether to believe her, put her
>>
>> father in jail, interrogated her mother, and removed her three siblings
>>
>> from their parents' custody.
>>
>> Within two days, investigators uncovered the truth: Brandy and Bill
>> Mongar had been framed.
>>
>> But a cloud of public suspicion has followed the Mongars for the past
>> five years.
>>
>> Federal prosecutors later proved that Lester John White Jr., 51, a
>> Garden Grove man who had a grudge against the Mongars, searched through
>>
>> pedophilia sites on the Internet until he found a photo of a child who
>> resembled Ashley Mongar. Then White made "a vengeful false child abuse
>> report" against her parents, prosecutors said.
>>
>> White admitted in his trial last winter that five days before Christmas
>>
>> in 2001, he anonymously mailed the downloaded image to the Iowa
>> Department of Human Services office in Osceola.
>>
>> White insisted he did so out of concern for Ashley. His defense lawyer,
>>
>> Nick Drees, contended that a conviction would deter others from
>> reporting suspected abuse if they could be held criminally liable for
>> handing over evidence that includes child pornography.
>>
>> But a federal judge found White guilty of three charges for receiving,
>> possessing and distributing child pornography.
>>
>> The photo he claimed was of the Mongars was actually part of "the
>> Heather series," a widely distributed collection of child pornography,
>> investigators testified.
>>
>> White was sentenced last month to six years in prison.
>>
>> With White heading off to prison soon, the five-year saga Bill and
>> Brandy Mongar lived through finally came to an end. But before it
>> ended, some of the Mongars' friends grew distant, both lost their jobs,
>>
>> and they ended up moving away from Osceola for a while.
>>
>> Accusations arise from care dispute
>>
>> A feud between the Mongar family and the White family began in May
>> 2001. Lester White's wife, Juanita, who provided child care for the
>> Mongar children, sued Brandy and Bill Mongar for child care fees.
>>
>> Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of
>>
>> Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
>> butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
>> One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
>> hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.
>>
>> After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
>> Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
>> the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.
>>
>> In November 2001, Lester White downloaded the image of "Heather" being
>> sexually abused, but he waited until Dec. 20 to mail it to the DHS,
>> investigators testified.
>>
>> U.S. Postal Inspector Kevin Marshall and Osceola police investigator
>> Charles Beeker went to Ashley's elementary school to determine whether
>> she was, indeed, the child in the photo, court documents state.
>>
>> Beeker knew the Mongar family and "believed it was certainly her,"
>> according to court testimony.
>>
>> However, when Marshall met the girl, he was not convinced.
>>
>> Police asked Brandy and Bill Mongar, who were then manager and
>> assistant manager at a KFC restaurant in Osceola, to go to the Osceola
>> Police Department. They arrested Bill on a warrant for failing to pay
>> traffic fines.
>>
>> Brandy Mongar said, "They read me my rights and slapped this picture
>> down in front of my face and said, 'This is your daughter.' "
>>
>> She said she reacted to "the horror of the photo," which showed a young
>>
>> girl lying on a bed and a man, whose genitals were in full view,
>> performing a sex act on her.
>>
>> "I started screaming. I kept saying, 'This is not my daughter! Oh my
>> God!' and I started crying, and it was just a horrible ordeal," she
>> remembered.
>>
>> What was immediately obvious to the mother was that the girl in the
>> photo had crooked teeth, while her own daughter's teeth are "perfect,"
>> she said.
>>
>> And the man in the photo had no tattoo on his hand or leg, while Bill
>> Mongar has tattoos in both places.
>>
>> When she pointed these details out, the investigators told her
>> alterations were possible with a digital photo. She responded that she
>> didn't own a digital camera.
>>
>> "I said, 'I want my kids,' " Mongar recalled. "My fear was my kids were
>>
>> gone, and I didn't know where they were going."
>>
>> Girl told, 'Your parents are sick'
>>
>> Ashley and her younger sister, who police had taken from her
>> kindergarten classroom, were in separate rooms elsewhere at the police
>> station, Brandy Mongar said. It was 10 hours before the girls were able
>>
>> to leave with their grandmother, whom DHS officials had asked to care
>> for all four Mongar children.
>>
>> "I understand why they did it," Brandy Mongar said. "If something like
>> that had really happened, they need to take all the precautionary steps
>>
>> they have to do."
>>
>> The situation was no less painful when Ashley later told her mother the
>>
>> questions the male officers asked her.
>>
>> "She was scared because she's in this room alone with no one she knows
>> and these guys kept telling her: 'We know this is you,' " Brandy Mongar
>>
>> said. "They said, 'Your parents are sick people,' and that we need to
>> be on medication. The medication would help us and she wouldn't have to
>>
>> go through that no more. She kept saying 'No, no.' "
>>
>> The investigators asked Brandy Mongar if they could search her home,
>> and she quickly agreed. Federal court documents show that the officers
>> did not find the blanket or girl's clothing that could be seen in the
>> photo. They confiscated the family computer, however, but found no
>> cameras or anything that would connect the Mongars to the photo,
>> according to court records.
>>
>> Brandy Mongar said the officers told her not to talk to anyone about
>> the case - neither family nor friends who could possibly destroy
>> evidence for her. If she bumped into her family in town, she was told
>> to turn and walk away from them, she said.
>>
>> "My whole world, in just a matter of minutes, came crashing down on
>> me," she said. "It felt like my mom, my sister, my kids were completely
>>
>> out of my life."
>>
>> The next morning, stinging from a killer headache, Brandy Mongar went
>> to the store for pain medication. By coincidence, she said, her four
>> children were there with her mother, Linda Hopkins.
>>
>> "My youngest was almost 2 and he said, 'Momma!' I instantly started
>> bawling and the kids started crying. I went directly to them. I
>> couldn't stay away from my kids. My mom said, 'Brandy, you're going to
>> get caught,' and I said, 'I don't care, this isn't right.' "
>>
>> Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
>> husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
>>
>> "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
>> they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
>>
>> The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day.
>>
>> Attorney uncovers origin of photo
>>
>> Investigators told the Mongars they had identified the photo as part of
>>
>> the series of "Heather" photos available on the Internet. But they did
>> not know who may have mailed it until a week later when the Garden
>> Grove city attorney, Monty Franklin, who was also acting as the
>> courtroom advocate for the Mongar children, recognized similarities
>> between the "Heather" photo and photos mailed to Garden Grove city
>> officials by Lester and Juanita White complaining about neighborhood
>> eyesores, court records show.
>>
>> A warrant was issued and a search of the Whites' home uncovered more
>> child pornography, as well as swinger magazines and home movies of the
>> Whites having sex "with each other, and with other men, other women,
>> and multiple partners," court documents show.
>>
>> Lester White told investigators - verbally and in a written confession
>> - that he had downloaded the "Heather" photo and other child
>> pornography, court documents show.
>>
>> White later contradicted this at his trial, and in a motion for a new
>> trial argued that his son was to blame for the pornography being on the
>>
>> family computer.
>>
>> Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Peyton Gaumer said in court documents
>> that White, who was indicted in December 2003, falsely accused Bill
>> Mongar of "one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, namely the rape
>> of his own daughter."
>>
>> The ordeal caused Ashley "extreme emotional trauma," he said.
>>
>> Brandy Mongar said: "The public, the way they treated us, they acted
>> like we were really guilty of this. They saw Bill being taken away in a
>>
>> police car and everybody said, 'What'd Bill do?' I felt like everyone
>> was looking at us."
>>
>> In June 2004, the family moved to Des Moines, where Bill got a job and
>> Brandy went to school.
>>
>> They returned to the Osceola area nine months later because their
>> children missed home, said Brandy Mongar, who is now a full-time
>> college student and works part time at a restaurant.
>>
>> At White's sentencing, Ashley did not want to go on the stand to read
>> her victim's statement, so the prosecutor read it for her, her mother
>> said.
>>
>> The family was "ecstatic" when the judge sentenced White to six years
>> in prison, she said.
>>
>> Ashley, now 13, is no longer completely trusting of people, Brandy
>> Mongar said.
>>
>> Ashley has had nightmares, including one where she dreamed she was in a
>>
>> bathtub and White was staring at her through a window.
>>
>> She gets upset if someone outside her immediate family tries to take
>> snapshots of her.
>>
>> "She's seen what pictures can do," Brandy Mongar said.
>

[0:->]

.... to "pervs downingloading kiddie porn."

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=internetNews&storyid=2006-11-22T151318Z_01_PEK147738_RTRUKOC_0_US-CHINA-PORNOGRAPHY.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

China sentences Web porn king to life in prison
Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:14am ET145
Internet News
Banks face growing threat of inside identity theft
Microsoft brings 129 lawsuits against phishers
CBS clips top YouTube charts, boost ratings
More Internet News...
Email This Article | Print This Article | Reprints
[-] Text [+]

BEIJING (Reuters) - A Chinese court sentenced the founder of the
country's largest pornography Web site to life imprisonment on
Wednesday and jailed another eight of the site's organizers, state
media reported. ....

...... Pornography was among the vices nearly wiped out in China under
the strict and puritanical rule of Mao Zedong. But since economic
reforms began and social controls have loosened, it has become more
readily available.

China also has an army of cyber police who patrol the Internet for
unfavorable content, but their targets are more often politically
sensitive subjects than pornography. ...


Possibly Greg, you would prefer the PRC solution to social problems,
Greg.

You can actually crank up their Constitution (yes, they have one), and
read it and see if you'd like to live there.

Heck, we might even take up a collection to help you move...and with a
computer you can stay connected to the group easily...well, unless you
post something that interests Uncle Chen. R R R R




0:-> wrote:
> 0:-> wrote:
>
> ... I am so fond of educating Greg, and so inspired by the ignorance of
> he and other posters here on issues of law that I just have to visit
> this little gem more precisely......
>
> > Greegor wrote:
>
> ...snip unrelated....
>
>
> >> Of all the privacy rights threatened everyday for security,
>
> Yes, a very real concern. And being dealt with in our courts.
>
> >> can't they track the pervs who download kiddy porn more?
> >
> > How? Are you forgetting the Constitution now?
>
> My question was meant to trigger some thinking in you, but I just can't
> trust in that.
>
> Greg, are you suggesting that because some privacy rights are being
> threatened more should be?
>
> Or are you accusing the government of not being INTRUSIVE enough?
>
> Your questions tend to create MORE confusion rather than invite more
> clarity.
>
> And Greg, on this issue you are wrong. They ARE tracking pervs that
> download kiddie-porn. I kind of wonder if you aren't being tracked as
> one of many visitors to the Myspace website.
>
> But then you would have had to do something to trigger a legal
> surveillance of you. Did you?
>
> Do you hope they ignored the constitutional restraints and have started
> tracking you?
>
> If they did, then trust me, they won't just look for kiddie porn. That
> would be a waste of resource. The software that is used very likely is
> programmable to look for a long string of words and character clusters
> that would trigger a closer look.
>
> So basically the authorities would have to be probing pretty much ALL
> traffic at a website to find the pervs you bring up.
>
> Want that do you?
>
> What happened to your Constitutional defense of parents rights? Some of
> those folks might be just kids, and parents, all innocent.
>
> Have I ever mentioned your tendency to the double standard, Greg?
>
> 0:-}
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> >> What are the odds that a perv who downloads
> >> kiddy porn also molested kids?
> >
> > Good question. Are you really wanting an answer, or is it yet another
> > rhetorical "blaming?"
> >
> > So, look up the odds if you will.
> >
> > If you can't find them, and you know it's unlikely, then you have more
> > likely asked yet another of your diversionary self excusing
> > rhetorically loaded questions.
> >
> > You've made no contribution about this story, other than to pretend to
> > curiousity.
> >
> > Got any to make?
> >
> > 0:-]
> >
> >>
> >> http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061112/NEWS...
> >>
> >>
> >> False sex-abuse claims leave cloud over family
> >> By JENNIFER JACOBS REGISTER STAFF WRITER
> >> November 12, 2006
> >>
> >> Osceola, Ia. - The photograph of a naked man about to rape a screaming
> >> girl arrived at the state child abuse investigators' office in an
> >> anonymous envelope five years ago.
> >>
> >> A simple message was marked on the back of the photo: "Ashley Mongar,
> >> Friendly Acres Trailer Park, Lot 20, Osceola, Iowa. Photographer:
> >> Brandy Mongar."
> >>
> >> During the police investigation that followed, Ashley Mongar, then 8
> >> years old, was pulled out of school, shown the explicit photograph, and
> >>
> >> examined by her doctor for signs of sexual intercourse. She tearfully
> >> denied any abuse. But police, uncertain whether to believe her, put her
> >>
> >> father in jail, interrogated her mother, and removed her three siblings
> >>
> >> from their parents' custody.
> >>
> >> Within two days, investigators uncovered the truth: Brandy and Bill
> >> Mongar had been framed.
> >>
> >> But a cloud of public suspicion has followed the Mongars for the past
> >> five years.
> >>
> >> Federal prosecutors later proved that Lester John White Jr., 51, a
> >> Garden Grove man who had a grudge against the Mongars, searched through
> >>
> >> pedophilia sites on the Internet until he found a photo of a child who
> >> resembled Ashley Mongar. Then White made "a vengeful false child abuse
> >> report" against her parents, prosecutors said.
> >>
> >> White admitted in his trial last winter that five days before Christmas
> >>
> >> in 2001, he anonymously mailed the downloaded image to the Iowa
> >> Department of Human Services office in Osceola.
> >>
> >> White insisted he did so out of concern for Ashley. His defense lawyer,
> >>
> >> Nick Drees, contended that a conviction would deter others from
> >> reporting suspected abuse if they could be held criminally liable for
> >> handing over evidence that includes child pornography.
> >>
> >> But a federal judge found White guilty of three charges for receiving,
> >> possessing and distributing child pornography.
> >>
> >> The photo he claimed was of the Mongars was actually part of "the
> >> Heather series," a widely distributed collection of child pornography,
> >> investigators testified.
> >>
> >> White was sentenced last month to six years in prison.
> >>
> >> With White heading off to prison soon, the five-year saga Bill and
> >> Brandy Mongar lived through finally came to an end. But before it
> >> ended, some of the Mongars' friends grew distant, both lost their jobs,
> >>
> >> and they ended up moving away from Osceola for a while.
> >>
> >> Accusations arise from care dispute
> >>
> >> A feud between the Mongar family and the White family began in May
> >> 2001. Lester White's wife, Juanita, who provided child care for the
> >> Mongar children, sued Brandy and Bill Mongar for child care fees.
> >>
> >> Court records show the Mongars reported the Whites to the Department of
> >>
> >> Human Services for "smacking (their children) on the knuckles with
> >> butter knives" and for smoking cigarettes in the children's presence.
> >> One of the Mongars' children has severe asthma and needed
> >> hospitalization, partly due to inhaling the smoke.
> >>
> >> After the DHS confirmed child abuse for "denial of critical care,"
> >> Juanita White forfeited her state child care registration, cutting off
> >> the Whites' primary source of income, court records state.
> >>
> >> In November 2001, Lester White downloaded the image of "Heather" being
> >> sexually abused, but he waited until Dec. 20 to mail it to the DHS,
> >> investigators testified.
> >>
> >> U.S. Postal Inspector Kevin Marshall and Osceola police investigator
> >> Charles Beeker went to Ashley's elementary school to determine whether
> >> she was, indeed, the child in the photo, court documents state.
> >>
> >> Beeker knew the Mongar family and "believed it was certainly her,"
> >> according to court testimony.
> >>
> >> However, when Marshall met the girl, he was not convinced.
> >>
> >> Police asked Brandy and Bill Mongar, who were then manager and
> >> assistant manager at a KFC restaurant in Osceola, to go to the Osceola
> >> Police Department. They arrested Bill on a warrant for failing to pay
> >> traffic fines.
> >>
> >> Brandy Mongar said, "They read me my rights and slapped this picture
> >> down in front of my face and said, 'This is your daughter.' "
> >>
> >> She said she reacted to "the horror of the photo," which showed a young
> >>
> >> girl lying on a bed and a man, whose genitals were in full view,
> >> performing a sex act on her.
> >>
> >> "I started screaming. I kept saying, 'This is not my daughter! Oh my
> >> God!' and I started crying, and it was just a horrible ordeal," she
> >> remembered.
> >>
> >> What was immediately obvious to the mother was that the girl in the
> >> photo had crooked teeth, while her own daughter's teeth are "perfect,"
> >> she said.
> >>
> >> And the man in the photo had no tattoo on his hand or leg, while Bill
> >> Mongar has tattoos in both places.
> >>
> >> When she pointed these details out, the investigators told her
> >> alterations were possible with a digital photo. She responded that she
> >> didn't own a digital camera.
> >>
> >> "I said, 'I want my kids,' " Mongar recalled. "My fear was my kids were
> >>
> >> gone, and I didn't know where they were going."
> >>
> >> Girl told, 'Your parents are sick'
> >>
> >> Ashley and her younger sister, who police had taken from her
> >> kindergarten classroom, were in separate rooms elsewhere at the police
> >> station, Brandy Mongar said. It was 10 hours before the girls were able
> >>
> >> to leave with their grandmother, whom DHS officials had asked to care
> >> for all four Mongar children.
> >>
> >> "I understand why they did it," Brandy Mongar said. "If something like
> >> that had really happened, they need to take all the precautionary steps
> >>
> >> they have to do."
> >>
> >> The situation was no less painful when Ashley later told her mother the
> >>
> >> questions the male officers asked her.
> >>
> >> "She was scared because she's in this room alone with no one she knows
> >> and these guys kept telling her: 'We know this is you,' " Brandy Mongar
> >>
> >> said. "They said, 'Your parents are sick people,' and that we need to
> >> be on medication. The medication would help us and she wouldn't have to
> >>
> >> go through that no more. She kept saying 'No, no.' "
> >>
> >> The investigators asked Brandy Mongar if they could search her home,
> >> and she quickly agreed. Federal court documents show that the officers
> >> did not find the blanket or girl's clothing that could be seen in the
> >> photo. They confiscated the family computer, however, but found no
> >> cameras or anything that would connect the Mongars to the photo,
> >> according to court records.
> >>
> >> Brandy Mongar said the officers told her not to talk to anyone about
> >> the case - neither family nor friends who could possibly destroy
> >> evidence for her. If she bumped into her family in town, she was told
> >> to turn and walk away from them, she said.
> >>
> >> "My whole world, in just a matter of minutes, came crashing down on
> >> me," she said. "It felt like my mom, my sister, my kids were completely
> >>
> >> out of my life."
> >>
> >> The next morning, stinging from a killer headache, Brandy Mongar went
> >> to the store for pain medication. By coincidence, she said, her four
> >> children were there with her mother, Linda Hopkins.
> >>
> >> "My youngest was almost 2 and he said, 'Momma!' I instantly started
> >> bawling and the kids started crying. I went directly to them. I
> >> couldn't stay away from my kids. My mom said, 'Brandy, you're going to
> >> get caught,' and I said, 'I don't care, this isn't right.' "
> >>
> >> Brandy Mongar went to the DHS office, told officials she and her
> >> husband were innocent, and pleaded for their help.
> >>
> >> "They did all the stuff they should have done - they questioned me,
> >> they questioned my husband, they questioned my kids," she said.
> >>
> >> The children were allowed to return to the Mongar home later that day.
> >>
> >> Attorney uncovers origin of photo
> >>
> >> Investigators told the Mongars they had identified the photo as part of
> >>
> >> the series of "Heather" photos available on the Internet. But they did
> >> not know who may have mailed it until a week later when the Garden
> >> Grove city attorney, Monty Franklin, who was also acting as the
> >> courtroom advocate for the Mongar children, recognized similarities
> >> between the "Heather" photo and photos mailed to Garden Grove city
> >> officials by Lester and Juanita White complaining about neighborhood
> >> eyesores, court records show.
> >>
> >> A warrant was issued and a search of the Whites' home uncovered more
> >> child pornography, as well as swinger magazines and home movies of the
> >> Whites having sex "with each other, and with other men, other women,
> >> and multiple partners," court documents show.
> >>
> >> Lester White told investigators - verbally and in a written confession
> >> - that he had downloaded the "Heather" photo and other child
> >> pornography, court documents show.
> >>
> >> White later contradicted this at his trial, and in a motion for a new
> >> trial argued that his son was to blame for the pornography being on the
> >>
> >> family computer.
> >>
> >> Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Peyton Gaumer said in court documents
> >> that White, who was indicted in December 2003, falsely accused Bill
> >> Mongar of "one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, namely the rape
> >> of his own daughter."
> >>
> >> The ordeal caused Ashley "extreme emotional trauma," he said.
> >>
> >> Brandy Mongar said: "The public, the way they treated us, they acted
> >> like we were really guilty of this. They saw Bill being taken away in a
> >>
> >> police car and everybody said, 'What'd Bill do?' I felt like everyone
> >> was looking at us."
> >>
> >> In June 2004, the family moved to Des Moines, where Bill got a job and
> >> Brandy went to school.
> >>
> >> They returned to the Osceola area nine months later because their
> >> children missed home, said Brandy Mongar, who is now a full-time
> >> college student and works part time at a restaurant.
> >>
> >> At White's sentencing, Ashley did not want to go on the stand to read
> >> her victim's statement, so the prosecutor read it for her, her mother
> >> said.
> >>
> >> The family was "ecstatic" when the judge sentenced White to six years
> >> in prison, she said.
> >>
> >> Ashley, now 13, is no longer completely trusting of people, Brandy
> >> Mongar said.
> >>
> >> Ashley has had nightmares, including one where she dreamed she was in a
> >>
> >> bathtub and White was staring at her through a window.
> >>
> >> She gets upset if someone outside her immediate family tries to take
> >> snapshots of her.
> >>
> >> "She's seen what pictures can do," Brandy Mongar said.
> >.

[Greegor]

It's odd that you seem to be so in defense of privacy for
pervs downloading kiddie porn, and even defend a
right to have social problems!

Just the opposite of your notion that since there
are massive numbers of unreported cases of
sexual abuse, CPS should have statzpolezei
like authority to check every child's drawers.

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> It's odd that you seem to be so in defense of privacy for
> pervs downloading kiddie porn, and even defend a
> right to have social problems!

I'm not in defense of it. I merely point out the problems of
intelligence operations that would include OTHERS, who are perfectly
innocent by in the stream of examined documents/transmissions.

Because foreign intelligence is not constrained by this, I've very
aware of all the things I saw in my military service reviewing raw
intelligence source materials, that had nothing to do with what we were
looking for, but could not find if we didn't look at everything.

So we looked at everything.

You have asked that domestic intelligence look at "everything" in the
accessing and transmission of online data, so as to catch a few.

> Just the opposite of your notion that since there
> are massive numbers of unreported cases of
> sexual abuse, CPS should have statzpolezei
> like authority to check every child's drawers.

Actually that's not the least true.

Without allegations CPS has no business doing that, and to my knowledge
does not.

Though it does not have to be specific allegations for them to look at
all possibilities of abuse.

YOU and others here have criticized CPS when the failed to do so and
missed one kind of abuse while investigating, and having supervision
and custody of a child.

Now suddenly you ready to not blame CPS as long as they are careful to
meet YOUR definition of civil rights?

I do wish, by the way, you'd stop making up my intent and assigning me
meanings not apparent and provable in my posts.

Please show where I used unreported cases of sexual abuse to defend the
checking of every child's drawers.

You do see, do you not, that you made that up?

0:->

[Greegor]

Kane, I do not accept that to track WHO accesses
certain web sites would require tracking everything else.

Can't they get a computer counterpart of a
telephone wiretap, through a court order?

Asking a server to put a trace or keystroke trap on every
access to nakedkiddies.com would NOT violate
the rights of others on the internet would it?

In a few news stories they reported that when the
authorities busted a kiddieporn site operator they
tracked down the pervs accessing the site.

I'm sure that Dan's buddy Oliver Sutton could
help the pervs, but I'm sure there are still some
ways to track them down.

As the NBC/Perverted Justice sting and the
overseas sex junket prosecutions indicate
such a sting would catch JUDGES, teachers,
doctors, psychologists, coaches, Cops, counselors...

Is it possible THAT is the reason that law enforcement
doesn't track this stuff better?

[0:->]

Greegor wrote:
> Kane, I do not accept that to track WHO accesses
> certain web sites would require tracking everything else.

Oh, really? You a Unix programmer?

To find "someone" you have to pull of logs of all "ones" who have
posted.

Then you pick out your target person.

If you don't have a target person...you claim as you state it would not
have a person named.

How do you know he's a perv unless you already have found him down
loading. How do you find him downloading unless you review everyone
until you get a hit?

> Can't they get a computer counterpart of a
> telephone wiretap, through a court order?

Of course. How to you name the perp if you have not already been
scanning logs of posters and examining their connections to suspect
sites, then determined if they did indeed download from it?

You can't get a warrant, as far as I know, on people visiting a certain
website. You have to have some evidence to present to the issuing judge
that a crime had been committed...possession of child pornography.

You seem, after all these years, and my explaining these things to you
before on other matters, unble to retain anything.

> Asking a server to put a trace or keystroke trap on every
> access to nakedkiddies.com would NOT violate
> the rights of others on the internet would it?

Yes. No warrant should be issued because there is not crime reported to
issue upon.

That IS the beef currently with the national security issues and
proposed 'solutions.'

> In a few news stories they reported that when the
> authorities busted a kiddieporn site operator they
> tracked down the pervs accessing the site.

Yes, and they had proof there was kiddieporn first.

They may have tracked down the pervs, Greg, they had to have the site
operator's logs showing there were downloads.

All those that downloaded nothing would not have, or at least should
not have resulted in warrants to "track" them.

To cut a finer point on it though, you are right in one sense.

Since you computer caches all text and images you access, even when
clicking on a site, for a short time any "porn" displayed would exist
on your computer in a temporary file. If that file is not removed, and
it is not overwritten it will stay forever on your site.

Hence you have technically "downloaded" kiddie porn.

Now what I find intresting at this point, Greg, is that you have indeed
answered your very own question.

One of us was very clever to moved you to that point. Was it you?

> I'm sure that Dan's buddy Oliver Sutton could
> help the pervs, but I'm sure there are still some
> ways to track them down.

Are you Oliver Sutton accusing Dan's buddy 'Oliver Sutton' of helping
pervs download kiddie port, Greg?

Would you like to think about that a bit more?

Didn't you claim OS is DS?

If you believe that to be true, then logically wouldn't you be accusing
Dan of helping pervs download kiddie porn?

> As the NBC/Perverted Justice sting and the
> overseas sex junket prosecutions indicate
> such a sting would catch JUDGES, teachers,
> doctors, psychologists, coaches, Cops, counselors...

I see you once again, answering your original question.

Can we assume then that you tendered that question rhetorically,
already knowing the answer?

> Is it possible THAT is the reason that law enforcement
> doesn't track this stuff better?

I have found that anything is possible.

I've even heard it suggested that now and then some "boyfriend" moves
in with a single mom and does not abuse her kids.

In the instances you mention I'm a bit puzzled, since in fact police do
conduct, quite vigorously, investigations UNDER WARRANT where they have
cause to suspect, and do catch people from all walks of life.

Are you really claiming they don't, or are you confused and don't
understand the Constitutional issues that restrain them, as the article
pointed out, in ways private citizens are not so restrained?

You post these things, then you go of on these very strange tangents,
Greg, with wild unfounded, and usually unfoundable if one knows
anything, accusatory rants.

What motivates you to do this, I wonder?

Kane

[Greegor]

Since mere possession of kiddy porn is a crime, is
it reasonable to play games and pretend that pervs
cruising through kiddy porn sites al length
is not "constructive possession"?

I worry that people can be "slammed" to
a porno site like a pop under, pop up, etc.

But if somebody is actively cruising through
kiddy porn, they need to be taken out of society ASAP.

Hardcore undercover work to bust kiddy porn is in order.

B.O.R. should not get in the way of busting
people accessing KNOWN kiddy porn sites.