fidgety kids

[Chris]

Just had our parent teacher conference for our 6th grade son. The
story is pretty much the same as every year--bright kid but he can't
sit still in class. Of course each year teachers are less tolerant of
his fidgeting, twirling the eraser, pencil tapping, etc. But, like
each year, the teachers seem unable to come up with any concrete
strategies for dealing with the issue. The kid is bored, everyone
agrees, but the level of fidgetiness seems beyond that which can be
explained by boredom alone. He doesn't sit still often--he eats
standing up most meals, he plays video games jumping up and down, etc.
So, the question becomes what to do in school? Has anyone dealt
successfully with this problem?

Chris

[Beth Kevles]

Hi --

We solved the problem of excess-fidgets for our son by removing milk
from his diet. It turned out he had an allergy to it (and to a couple
of other things). I'm not suggesting that your son has a milk allergy!
But fidgets to his particular degree sound as though they may have a
physical basis, possibly neurological, possibly other.

So ... I'd try several things. First, make sure he gets TONS of
exercise! Maybe go running in the morning before school? Take up
a martial art and practice daily? Whatever it takes to burn off some of
that excess energy.

Second, start tracking your son's diet. Try removing artificial colors
and flavors and maybe some common allergens (milk protein, egg, wheat)
to see if he becomes better able to sit still. It may take a couple of
weeks of dietary elimination to see results, but your son may, in fact,
be interested in trying it himself if you present things appropriately.

If that doesn't work, see a doctor. Even if you decide not to take up a
treatment plan, having a diagnosis (if there IS a diagnosis) will make
teachers more tolerant of his fidgety behavior. "Oh, he's got XXX, it
makes him fidget."

In the meantime, keep working with your son to keep his behavior under
control, at least enough so that it doesn't distract other students.

I hope this helps! Good luck,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

[beachpeach]

Chris wrote:
> Just had our parent teacher conference for our 6th grade son. The
> story is pretty much the same as every year--bright kid but he can't
> sit still in class. Of course each year teachers are less tolerant of
> his fidgeting, twirling the eraser, pencil tapping, etc. But, like
> each year, the teachers seem unable to come up with any concrete
> strategies for dealing with the issue. The kid is bored, everyone
> agrees, but the level of fidgetiness seems beyond that which can be
> explained by boredom alone. He doesn't sit still often--he eats
> standing up most meals, he plays video games jumping up and down, etc.
> So, the question becomes what to do in school? Has anyone dealt
> successfully with this problem?
>
> Chris

Have you discussed this issue with his physician? Have you sought
counseling? School counselor? I'd first talk to pediatrician and see
if there might be some medical reason. If there are none, I'd seek
counseling to see if there are any mental health issues that need
addressing. I'd also think about taking my child to a
naturopath/homeopath to see if there are any natural remedies that
might help. There's also the possibility that it will go away as he
gets older...or au contraire, it might escalate. Is he in sports?
Music? Does he have appropriate outlets for what sounds like nervous
energy? Is his life balanced? It could be as simply as few sessions
and lessons in behavior modification or it could be something more
complicated.

Good luck!

[Penny Gaines]

Chris wrote:
> Just had our parent teacher conference for our 6th grade son. The
> story is pretty much the same as every year--bright kid but he can't
> sit still in class. Of course each year teachers are less tolerant of
> his fidgeting, twirling the eraser, pencil tapping, etc. But, like
> each year, the teachers seem unable to come up with any concrete
> strategies for dealing with the issue. The kid is bored, everyone
> agrees, but the level of fidgetiness seems beyond that which can be
> explained by boredom alone. He doesn't sit still often--he eats
> standing up most meals, he plays video games jumping up and down, etc.
> So, the question becomes what to do in school? Has anyone dealt
> successfully with this problem?

How much physical exercise does he do? And what's his diet like?

I've noticed that boys that age get very fidgety if their diet
has too much high GI foods (basically sugary food) or if they
hadn't been physically active.

The physical activity doesn't have to be formal exercise programs, just
walking from the school bus seems to help.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Chris]

Penny Gaines wrote:
> >
> How much physical exercise does he do? And what's his diet like?


He is pretty active, but his diet is not very good. I guess I haven't
made that connection before, but everyone responding here has brought
it up. I'll have to take a closer look at both the variety of what he
eats and his reactions to certain foods. I guess allergies could be
involved, although he shows absolutely no other symptoms of food
allergies.

Chris

[[email protected]]

Chris wrote:
> Just had our parent teacher conference for our 6th grade son. The
> story is pretty much the same as every year--bright kid but he can't
> sit still in class. Of course each year teachers are less tolerant of
> his fidgeting, twirling the eraser, pencil tapping, etc. But, like
> each year, the teachers seem unable to come up with any concrete
> strategies for dealing with the issue.

In addition to looking into potential causes and ways to minimize his
fidgetiness, there are products a child can use in school to "focus"
their fidgetiness in more acceptable ways.

There are various kinds of "wiggle seat" that kids can put on their
chairs to allow them to wiggle a bit while still staying in their
chairs. (Here's a couple of examples:
http://www.sensoryedge.com/discositjr.html
http://www.amazon.com/Gymnic-MovinSit-Air-Cushion/dp/B0007WBMHG)

Also he might benefit by having something small that he can keep in his
pocket and fidget with quietly out of sight. A smooth stone, or
something squishy, etc. http://www.therapyshoppe.com/product.php?cat=7
has a bunch of options but you may well have something in the house
already that can fill this need.

Good luck!

--Robyn

[Paula]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:09:33 EST, "Chris" > wrote:

>Penny Gaines wrote:
>> >
>> How much physical exercise does he do? And what's his diet like?
>
>
>He is pretty active, but his diet is not very good. I guess I haven't
>made that connection before, but everyone responding here has brought
>it up. I'll have to take a closer look at both the variety of what he
>eats and his reactions to certain foods. I guess allergies could be
>involved, although he shows absolutely no other symptoms of food
>allergies.

Has he been evaluated for ADHD? If he has ADHD, there are some things
that can be done behaviorally and others that can be done medically. A
diagnosis also helps when you want accommodations. For example, some
of the ADHD kids I work with are allowed to take "walk and talks" with
me when they are losing it. The teacher calls me when they are
getting really fidgety or whatever their particular impulsiveness or
activity results in and I take them out to walk around and have a pep
talk about how they can do it. The walking does more than the
talking, but the talking also reminds them that they just have to hang
in there until the next recess or whatever and that the adults at
school are rooting for them to succeed and not just always exasperated
with them when they can't manage.

I have also got permission from teachers to give ADHD kids some rubber
aliens that I got from Oriental Trading Company (online). They
stretch and give a lot of the same tactile satisfaction that fidgeting
with pencils and such does, but they are much quieter. Some schools
and teachers don't like that idea, though, so it is easier to at least
get them to try it if there is some diagnosis that requires them to
try to accommodate the child's issues. If an elimination diet doesn't
help (and you can research online how to do that), I'd skip the
pediatrician, who generally just knows a little about the most common
problems and most common ways to treat them, and go to a
neuropsychologist, who can test for neurological as well as behavioral
issues and get you the answers more quickly. Whatever is going on,
please get him help now. Hyperactive kids are more likely to end up
being kids who get into more serious trouble later. The research I
have seen notes the correlation without speaking to cause, but my work
leads me to believe that kids who want to be liked and approved of who
are constantly getting into trouble in school end up having issues
with school/education, authority figures, and adults in general that
lead them to turn away from what you want them involved in and toward
rebellion and peer groups you won't want your child involved with.
Early intervention can prevent that much easier and better than you
can fix it after any damage is done.


--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

[Paula]

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 12:20:20 EST, wrote:

>There are various kinds of "wiggle seat" that kids can put on their
>chairs to allow them to wiggle a bit while still staying in their
>chairs. (Here's a couple of examples:
>http://www.sensoryedge.com/discositjr.html
>http://www.amazon.com/Gymnic-MovinSit-Air-Cushion/dp/B0007WBMHG)

This is another good example of something that kids in the schools I
work in have been able to use, but only when they have a diagnosis
that opens the door for educational accommodations. I've never seen a
parent be able to walk in with one and demand that the child be
allowed to use it unless they had an IEP or similar individualized
plan based on a diagnosis that supports the need for individualized
treatment.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

[Jeff]

"Chris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Just had our parent teacher conference for our 6th grade son. The
> story is pretty much the same as every year--bright kid but he can't
> sit still in class. Of course each year teachers are less tolerant of
> his fidgeting, twirling the eraser, pencil tapping, etc. But, like
> each year, the teachers seem unable to come up with any concrete
> strategies for dealing with the issue. The kid is bored, everyone
> agrees, but the level of fidgetiness seems beyond that which can be
> explained by boredom alone. He doesn't sit still often--he eats
> standing up most meals, he plays video games jumping up and down, etc.
> So, the question becomes what to do in school? Has anyone dealt
> successfully with this problem?

It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should talk
to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
should be going to an advanced class.

2) Your son is not able to sit still. He should learn to join the family and
eat with the family sitting down. He should be recreational activities like
reading, listening to music and using the computer sitting down. His
recreational use of computers, TV watching and video games should be limited
to two hours a day (or even less). He should also be outside, playing with
his friends, riding his bike, etc., during daylight hours rather than be in
the house.

It sounds to me that you need to bring the school and teachers in on this
one. You probably want to set up a behavioral plan with the help of the
school's guidance counseler or AP, his teachers and himself. This plan
should have specific rewards as well as expectations.

Solving problem #1 should help problem #2, but there seperate problems.

Plus, if you live near a major university with a medical school, you might
make an appoint with some educational psychologists or pediatric
pyschologists for some additional ideas.

Jeff





> Chris
>

[Chris]

Jeff wrote:
> >
> It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should talk
> to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
> His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
> should be going to an advanced class.
>

We have tried, repeatedly, to have him given more challenging work but
run into two problems. One, teachers just don't want to do it. Our
school really resists anything that looks like ability grouping. There
is no real mechanism, other than grade skipping available. He's
already young for his current grade, and I don't really want to have
him advanced. Plus, I don't think my son is the only one who could
benefit from more challenging work. Second, anytime that more
challenging work is given it is usually of the form "write about x."
My son really does not like to write, so that never works! Frankly,
what incentive do teachers have to tailor their lessons for him? None,
except goodwill.

During the conference his science teacher said, 'E's test scores were
94, 100, 104, and 98, but the other day when we were working on
something I looked over to see E just reading a book." So, to me, as a
parent I'm thinking what's the problem here? He clearly knows the
material and is choosing to make better use of his time! Why should
that bother the teacher? But she sees this as a sign of disrespect.


> 2) Your son is not able to sit still. He should learn to join the family and
> eat with the family sitting down.

He joins us for dinner and is an "active" participant in the
conversation, he'd just rather not sit down! He loves to help cook and
prepare meals.

He should be recreational activities like
> reading, listening to music and using the computer sitting down. His
> recreational use of computers, TV watching and video games should be limited
> to two hours a day (or even less). He should also be outside, playing with
> his friends, riding his bike, etc., during daylight hours rather than be in
> the house.
>
He is a little heavy on the video time, I'll admit. We have talked
about limiting that more or using it as a "reward" for good behavior.

But, he was elected to student council, was elected treasurer of the
6th grade chorus, has a lead role in the MS musical, is in chorus, band
and jazz band, is working on his black belt in TaeKwonDo, plays chess
in local and national tournaments, and takes piano lessons. He is
plenty busy. He doesn't really like too many sports, especially team
sports.

None of his teachers have ever suggested ADD as a diagnosis, but maybe
that's because he doesn't really get in trouble and when a teacher asks
him to stay on task he does, at least for a while. He does not enjoy
working in groups--he thinks they slow him down, and he takes a little
pride in being different or "quirky." Some teachers like this, others
don't.

I guess I'm torn between thinking he is just a bright kid who has
trouble controlling himself and thinking there are more serious
underlying problems.

> It sounds to me that you need to bring the school and teachers in on this
> one. You probably want to set up a behavioral plan with the help of the
> school's guidance counseler or AP, his teachers and himself. This plan
> should have specific rewards as well as expectations.
>
> Solving problem #1 should help problem #2, but there seperate problems.
>
> Plus, if you live near a major university with a medical school, you might
> make an appoint with some educational psychologists or pediatric
> pyschologists for some additional ideas.
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
>
>
> > Chris
> >

[Louise]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:03:05 EST, "Chris" > wrote:

>
>Jeff wrote:
>> >
>> It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should talk
>> to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
>> His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
>> should be going to an advanced class.
>>
>
>We have tried, repeatedly, to have him given more challenging work but
>run into two problems. One, teachers just don't want to do it. Our
>school really resists anything that looks like ability grouping. There
>is no real mechanism, other than grade skipping available.

I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
needs. If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.

They might not always live up to the IEP completely, but it seems a
very useful thing to have on one's side.


Louise

[Rosalie B.]

"Chris" > wrote:

Just one comment - well two actually.

I know teachers that are unwilling to do anything extra. They may be
just lazy, or set in their ways, or it may be that they are
overstressed by the climate in the school or by current testing stuff.

This may be where you will have to take charge of the boredom problem
(Does he say that he is bored? - It sounds like he is.) by asking the
teacher how either you or he can help them. Can he tutor the other
students? Can he prepare a presentation for the class? That kind of
thing.

Think of ways that his attention can be engaged in class without any
(or very little) teacher input. Ask him what he'd like to find out
about in various classes. Instead of asking the teachers to give him
extra work, have him suggest extra work that he can do.

[When I was in 6th grade, I found that if the teacher thought I knew
the answer she wouldn't call on me in class. So I could read a book
under my desk with impunity provided that I kept raising my hand to
answer questions. Counterwise, if I really wanted to be called on, I
had to pretend not to be paying attention.]

>Jeff wrote:

<major snippage>
>> He should also be outside, playing with
>> his friends, riding his bike, etc., during daylight hours rather than be in
>> the house.
>>
> He is
>plenty busy. He doesn't really like too many sports, especially team
>sports.
>
>None of his teachers have ever suggested ADD as a diagnosis, but maybe
>that's because he doesn't really get in trouble and when a teacher asks

I had one like that.

Given the additional information you've provided, IMH and completely
uninformed O, I don't think that he has ADD either. I think what he
needs is not so much a SPORT as an aerobic activity like swimming or
running or biking on a regular basis. This would be good for his
health and would tend (IME) to calm him down a bit and he could do it
more or less alone.


grandma Rosalie

[Jeff]

"Chris" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Jeff wrote:
>> >
>> It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should
>> talk
>> to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
>> His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
>> should be going to an advanced class.
>>
>
> We have tried, repeatedly, to have him given more challenging work but
> run into two problems. One, teachers just don't want to do it. Our
> school really resists anything that looks like ability grouping. There
> is no real mechanism, other than grade skipping available. He's
> already young for his current grade, and I don't really want to have
> him advanced. Plus, I don't think my son is the only one who could
> benefit from more challenging work. Second, anytime that more
> challenging work is given it is usually of the form "write about x."
> My son really does not like to write, so that never works! Frankly,
> what incentive do teachers have to tailor their lessons for him? None,
> except goodwill.
>
> During the conference his science teacher said, 'E's test scores were
> 94, 100, 104, and 98, but the other day when we were working on
> something I looked over to see E just reading a book." So, to me, as a
> parent I'm thinking what's the problem here? He clearly knows the
> material and is choosing to make better use of his time! Why should
> that bother the teacher? But she sees this as a sign of disrespect.
>
>
>> 2) Your son is not able to sit still. He should learn to join the family
>> and
>> eat with the family sitting down.
>
> He joins us for dinner and is an "active" participant in the
> conversation, he'd just rather not sit down! He loves to help cook and
> prepare meals.

Does he sit down at a restaurant or house of worship or college basketball
game?

> He should be recreational activities like
>> reading, listening to music and using the computer sitting down. His
>> recreational use of computers, TV watching and video games should be
>> limited
>> to two hours a day (or even less). He should also be outside, playing
>> with
>> his friends, riding his bike, etc., during daylight hours rather than be
>> in
>> the house.
>>
> He is a little heavy on the video time, I'll admit. We have talked
> about limiting that more or using it as a "reward" for good behavior.
>
> But, he was elected to student council, was elected treasurer of the
> 6th grade chorus, has a lead role in the MS musical, is in chorus, band
> and jazz band, is working on his black belt in TaeKwonDo, plays chess
> in local and national tournaments, and takes piano lessons. He is
> plenty busy. He doesn't really like too many sports, especially team
> sports.
>
> None of his teachers have ever suggested ADD as a diagnosis, but maybe
> that's because he doesn't really get in trouble and when a teacher asks
> him to stay on task he does, at least for a while. He does not enjoy
> working in groups--he thinks they slow him down, and he takes a little
> pride in being different or "quirky." Some teachers like this, others
> don't.
>
> I guess I'm torn between thinking he is just a bright kid who has
> trouble controlling himself and thinking there are more serious
> underlying problems.

The plot thickens.

ADHD was the first thing that popped in my head. It's possible. It might be
worth having the school psychologist evaluate him. However, from the
acitvities he participates in, it doesn't sound like it.

I do think there are underlying problems. From your description, they seem
to be mostly with the school.

The school and teachers should be doing something called differential
education. They should be teaching in such a way that the abilities and
interests of all the kids are engaged, not just a few. Clearly, from your
description, they aren't doing that.

I agree with Laurie about getting an IEP for your son. Sounds like a good
idea. However, if you can get him the services he deserves (e.g., gift
tutorials), that may also help him stay on task more in the regular classes.
I think the school really needs to look at your son as child with abilities
to develop,

You might also transfer him to another school. But it sounds like you would
be giving up too many activities for your son. And private school might not
be worth the cost.

I bet there is a school of education near where you are. You might even
consider hiring some of the students in the school to tutor your son for
enrichment classes or something like that.

The other thing that might help is to provide him with a system whereby he
is rewarded for working in groups. They slow him down. So what? In real
life, after school, he will have to work in small groups, whether it is
working as a member of a team at Walmart or as a member of thesis committee
as a college professor. He may actuallly round out his education by helping
the members of his group. He has obviously taken on some leadership roles
with larger groups. Doing the same thing with smaller groups may have great
benefits, as well.

The above paragraph assumes that he isn't doing what he is supposed to do in
small groups. He may do what he is supposed to do, but just doesn't like it.
Kind of like in real life, too.

Jeff

>> It sounds to me that you need to bring the school and teachers in on this
>> one. You probably want to set up a behavioral plan with the help of the
>> school's guidance counseler or AP, his teachers and himself. This plan
>> should have specific rewards as well as expectations.
>>
>> Solving problem #1 should help problem #2, but there seperate problems.
>>
>> Plus, if you live near a major university with a medical school, you
>> might
>> make an appoint with some educational psychologists or pediatric
>> pyschologists for some additional ideas.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Chris
>> >
>

[[email protected]]

Louise wrote:

>
> I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
> the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
> needs. If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
> handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
> and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
> the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.
>

Unfortunately, this is not always true for gifted children. In the
US, a child with a disability is entitled to a Free and Appropriate
Public Education by federal law. Giftedness is not considered a
disability under this law. A gifted child may or may not have rights
under state law, but is entitled to nothing under federal law. Some
states write IEPs for gifted, others do not. Especially with the
advent of NCLB, many schools do not have the resources to do anything
they are not legally required to do for gifted kids, who are already
not "left behind" according to that law. Accordingly, many gifted
children learn nothing in school, with the full support of the state
and the school board and federal law. :(

--Robyn

[Louise]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2006 12:53:59 EST, wrote:

>
>Louise wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
>> the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
>> needs. If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
>> handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
>> and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
>> the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.
>>
>
>Unfortunately, this is not always true for gifted children. In the
>US, a child with a disability is entitled to a Free and Appropriate
>Public Education by federal law. Giftedness is not considered a
>disability under this law. A gifted child may or may not have rights
>under state law, but is entitled to nothing under federal law. Some
>states write IEPs for gifted, others do not. Especially with the
>advent of NCLB, many schools do not have the resources to do anything
>they are not legally required to do for gifted kids, who are already
>not "left behind" according to that law. Accordingly, many gifted
>children learn nothing in school, with the full support of the state
>and the school board and federal law. :(

I'm sorry to be wrong, then. And I'm especially sorry for the kids
who do get "left behind" because their schools aren't providing
appropriate educations for them.


Louise

[Paula]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 08:09:27 EST, Louise >
wrote:

>I'm sorry to be wrong, then. And I'm especially sorry for the kids
>who do get "left behind" because their schools aren't providing
>appropriate educations for them.

It's hard because there isn't enough money given to the schools to
differentiate education for everyone. Although I have gifted
children, I am more concerned about those who are falling behind. I
have told my kids that it is their responsibility to enrich their
educational experiences if they are ahead or bored. I work with the
teachers on coming up with things they can do that are acceptable to
him or her should they be bored. It is easier to entertain yourself
quietly than it is to teach yourself math, for example, so if the
teacher has to spend more time with the ones who aren't getting it,
that's the way it has to be. I think if the OP explained to the
teacher that the child wanted to read when bored but that the parent
wanted to make sure it was not coming across as disrespectful, they
could probably find a way.

Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
numerous boring meetings?

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

[Caledonia]

Louise wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Dec 2006 08:03:05 EST, "Chris" > wrote:
>
> >
> >Jeff wrote:
> >> >
> >> It sounds like he has two problems: 1) He is bored in class. You should talk
> >> to his assistant principal or guidence counselor as well as his teachers.
> >> His teachers should be giving him work that keeps from being bored. Or he
> >> should be going to an advanced class.
> >>
> >
> >We have tried, repeatedly, to have him given more challenging work but
> >run into two problems. One, teachers just don't want to do it. Our
> >school really resists anything that looks like ability grouping. There
> >is no real mechanism, other than grade skipping available.
>
> I don't know how this works in other countries, but in Canada and in
> the USA there is legislation about giving each child the education he
> needs.

I don't know how other states do things, but I know here the goal is
'least restrictive environment' to attain educational goals.

> If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
> handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
> and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
> the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.

Do they have IEPs for gifted students (w/o disabilities that are
impairing their academic progress) where you are?

> They might not always live up to the IEP completely, but it seems a
> very useful thing to have on one's side.

Actually, the accomodations that are required in the IEP are, afaik,
required. It's not a case of 'living up to it' or not. There's a lot of
waffling and tossing the funding back-and-forth for out-of-district
placements and other high-dollar items, since there's a large price tag
associated with these services (e.g., a residential placement can be
upwards of $200,000/year for a kid), and many parents (and voters) are
unclear that this is mandatory, not an optional service.

Caledonia

[Louise]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:24:22 EST, "Caledonia" >
wrote:

>>> If a child is tested to be {gifted / learning disabled /
>> handicapped in some other way}, then once a year the school, parents,
>> and child review the IEP (Individual Education Plan), which discusses
>> the recommended accommodations for this child's exceptionalities.
>
>Do they have IEPs for gifted students (w/o disabilities that are
>impairing their academic progress) where you are?

Yes. My sister had one from 1979 (Grade 3) to 1990 (Grade 13). I was
ten years older and envious as anything, particularly about the way
that the program reviews included the child.

Louise

[Chris]

Paula wrote:
>
> Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
> hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
> numerous boring meetings?
>

That's been my take pretty much. He is bored, he repeatedly states he
is bored. I figure he needs to find some way to occupy himself that is
not distracting to others. Teachers seem to have different levels of
tolerance for this. In 4th grade his teacher remarked that he "read at
inappropriate times." Turns out when she was reading aloud to the
class he preferred to read his own book. I don't see that as a
problem, but she sure did. Similarly, the example of his science
teacher who, despite quite clear evidence that the kid already knew the
material, was upset that he was reading in class. So, we continue to
work on that front. I've suggested doodling, but his teacher is not too
keen on that either. He gets frustrated with helping other kids, but
that is something he needs to learn to deal with better.

there is no requirement for gifted education, and in fact our school
district has come out quite strongly against any "special treatment" of
advanced kids, even before NCLB.

But beyond the "boredness" there is a distinct issue of fidgeting that
may be related to the boredom, but seems distinct in some ways. I
think the suggestions about limiting videos and increasing physical
activity, as well as possibly looking at his diet are good ideas that I
haven't really thought of as seriously as I probably should have.

chris

[[email protected]]

Paula wrote:
> Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
> hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
> numerous boring meetings?

It is a life skill, but it isn't something that kids should be expected
to practice for hours every day. I don't send my kids to school to
learn how to pretend they're paying attention when they're really not.


I get that there isn't enough funding to help everyone, but there are
things that can be done or allowed that don't cost anything, and yet
are still not available to most gifted kids.

Grade or subject acceleration (grade skipping or going to another
classroom for a particular subject) are free.

Allowing a child to read quietly during lessons he has mastered is
free. If that is distracting to other students, let him go to the
library to read!

There are numerous ideas for gifted education in the book "Teaching
Gifted Kids in the Regular Classroom" by Susan Winebrenner that require
a little of a teacher's time, but no additional funding.

Kids can be allowed to do alternate work (not more, but more
appropriate) that might be provided by their parents if the teachers
don't have the time to find appropriate work to provide. Again this is
free.

Using gifted kids as tutors for other kids needs to be approached
carefully, IMO. It risks making the child seem even more different to
his/her peers, and sets them apart in a way that becomes socially
uncomfortable. Some experience teaching is probably good for many
kids, but again, it shouldn't be the only thing they do all day.

Schools who refuse to give advanced kids any special treatment are
doing them a huge disservice. It is unreasonable to send a child to
school for 7 hours per day year after year and have them not learn
anything other than how to be bored without showing it. If we turn
these kids off of learning at a young age, I'd argue that we have also
done society a disservice.

--Robyn

[Cathy Kearns]

"Chris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> That's been my take pretty much. He is bored, he repeatedly states he
> is bored. I figure he needs to find some way to occupy himself that is
> not distracting to others. Teachers seem to have different levels of
> tolerance for this. In 4th grade his teacher remarked that he "read at
> inappropriate times." Turns out when she was reading aloud to the
> class he preferred to read his own book. I don't see that as a
> problem, but she sure did. Similarly, the example of his science
> teacher who, despite quite clear evidence that the kid already knew the
> material, was upset that he was reading in class. So, we continue to
> work on that front. I've suggested doodling, but his teacher is not too
> keen on that either. He gets frustrated with helping other kids, but
> that is something he needs to learn to deal with better.

My daughter reads ahead in the book the teacher is reading out loud.
Another idea is to present "doodling" as note taking. He can take notes on
the story being told, perhaps to help him pick out reoccuring themes, or
work on illustrations of the story. In science note taking should be even
more necessary, to pick up minor facts that may be important later on. To
note math equations. Or even to write down questions that explain things in
more depth that he can ask when appropriate or look up later.

[Jeff]

"Chris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Paula wrote:
> >
>> Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
>> hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
>> numerous boring meetings?
>>
>
> That's been my take pretty much. He is bored, he repeatedly states he
> is bored. I figure he needs to find some way to occupy himself that is
> not distracting to others. Teachers seem to have different levels of
> tolerance for this. In 4th grade his teacher remarked that he "read at
> inappropriate times." Turns out when she was reading aloud to the
> class he preferred to read his own book. I don't see that as a
> problem, but she sure did. Similarly, the example of his science
> teacher who, despite quite clear evidence that the kid already knew the
> material, was upset that he was reading in class. So, we continue to
> work on that front. I've suggested doodling, but his teacher is not too
> keen on that either. He gets frustrated with helping other kids, but
> that is something he needs to learn to deal with better.

One of the things the teacher can do is have your son read and do book
reports on topics related to class. For example, if the class is doing
astronomy, he can do a book report on a book about a dwarf planet (e.g.,
Pluto) or the moon or the Big Bang or whatever. That way he is occupied, he
is learning, and he is out of her hair.

And if she doesn't buy into this, maybe he can do the book reports on his
own and hand them to her.

In fact, in some science classrooms, they don't use a textbook, but use
books at different levels so that the students can learn in their own way.

Jeff

> there is no requirement for gifted education, and in fact our school
> district has come out quite strongly against any "special treatment" of
> advanced kids, even before NCLB.
>
> But beyond the "boredness" there is a distinct issue of fidgeting that
> may be related to the boredom, but seems distinct in some ways. I
> think the suggestions about limiting videos and increasing physical
> activity, as well as possibly looking at his diet are good ideas that I
> haven't really thought of as seriously as I probably should have.
>
> chris
>

[Jeff]

"Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "Chris" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> That's been my take pretty much. He is bored, he repeatedly states he
>> is bored. I figure he needs to find some way to occupy himself that is
>> not distracting to others. Teachers seem to have different levels of
>> tolerance for this. In 4th grade his teacher remarked that he "read at
>> inappropriate times." Turns out when she was reading aloud to the
>> class he preferred to read his own book. I don't see that as a
>> problem, but she sure did. Similarly, the example of his science
>> teacher who, despite quite clear evidence that the kid already knew the
>> material, was upset that he was reading in class. So, we continue to
>> work on that front. I've suggested doodling, but his teacher is not too
>> keen on that either. He gets frustrated with helping other kids, but
>> that is something he needs to learn to deal with better.
>
> My daughter reads ahead in the book the teacher is reading out loud.
> Another idea is to present "doodling" as note taking. He can take notes
> on
> the story being told, perhaps to help him pick out reoccuring themes, or
> work on illustrations of the story. In science note taking should be even
> more necessary, to pick up minor facts that may be important later on. To
> note math equations. Or even to write down questions that explain things
> in
> more depth that he can ask when appropriate or look up later.

You know, in math class, I never took notes. I never figured out what I
would write down. I learned the basic facts and understood the equations. I
did my homework. I might have copied problems in my notebook. But if I did,
I never used my notebook. However, I used my notes in Soc. Sci. and Science
class. In math, you have to learn the basics, like +, *, - and /. You would
be surprised how many kids use their fingers in math class for counting,
even in the sixth and seventh grades. In fact, I think calculators should be
banned from schools before college, except in science class. I did totally
fine without one in math class, all the way through calculus.

I also learned to take brief notes. I took a class in molecular biology.
When we talked about DNA, I didn't write down that it carries the genetic
information. I already knew. Why waste ink and paper?

When there is a story being read, like in English, he should definitely
learn how to take relevent notes. He should also learn how to take good
notes in science and social studies and math (if it helps him). He should
also learn to outline passages well, like in history and science.

I also like the idea of illustrating things. If he is bored when they are
studying the planets, he could draw pictures of the either planets in this
solar system (pluto is a dwarf planet). This will help him remember things
about the planets. (Of course, if he draws as well as I do, he is better of
taking notes or just looking at pictures. ;-) )

The only other thing I suggest is that he learns to understand things. I
could tell you what the letters in DNA mean, but if you don't understand
what DNA is for, it won't matter. If he learns to understand things, rather
than just memorize things, he will definitely be a leg up.

Jeff

[Jeff]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
<...>

> Using gifted kids as tutors for other kids needs to be approached
> carefully, IMO. It risks making the child seem even more different to
> his/her peers, and sets them apart in a way that becomes socially
> uncomfortable. Some experience teaching is probably good for many
> kids, but again, it shouldn't be the only thing they do all day.

One thing that is good for kids is to tutor younger kids. It gives the older
kids confidence and self-esteem. The younger kids benefit by getting more
one-on-one attention.

Working in groups, if done properly, is often helpful for all the kids,
because they all take on roles as teacher and learner. And when you teach,
you learn the material you are teaching even better. However, the key words
as "if done properly."

> Schools who refuse to give advanced kids any special treatment are
> doing them a huge disservice. It is unreasonable to send a child to
> school for 7 hours per day year after year and have them not learn
> anything other than how to be bored without showing it. If we turn
> these kids off of learning at a young age, I'd argue that we have also
> done society a disservice.

I do think it is good that kids learn to behave properly, even when bored.

However, it is better never to test the kids on thisl. Kids are going to
learn more if engaged than if bored.

Jeff

> --Robyn
>

[Louise]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 14:45:39 EST, "Jeff" > wrote:

>
>"Chris" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> Paula wrote:
>> >
>>> Anyway, it's a life skill to deal with boredom productively. Who
>>> hasn't had to sit quietly and at least seemingly attentively in
>>> numerous boring meetings?
>>>
>>
>> That's been my take pretty much. He is bored, he repeatedly states he
>> is bored. I figure he needs to find some way to occupy himself that is
>> not distracting to others. Teachers seem to have different levels of
>> tolerance for this. In 4th grade his teacher remarked that he "read at
>> inappropriate times." Turns out when she was reading aloud to the
>> class he preferred to read his own book. I don't see that as a
>> problem, but she sure did. Similarly, the example of his science
>> teacher who, despite quite clear evidence that the kid already knew the
>> material, was upset that he was reading in class. So, we continue to
>> work on that front. I've suggested doodling, but his teacher is not too
>> keen on that either. He gets frustrated with helping other kids, but
>> that is something he needs to learn to deal with better.
>
>One of the things the teacher can do is have your son read and do book
>reports on topics related to class. For example, if the class is doing
>astronomy, he can do a book report on a book about a dwarf planet (e.g.,
>Pluto) or the moon or the Big Bang or whatever. That way he is occupied, he
>is learning, and he is out of her hair.

The original poster mentioned that when a teacher does provide some
extra assignment for her son, it is always of the form "write about
...." and he really does not enjoy writing. Of course, more creative
and more active options for enrichment are easy for the rest of us to
dream up (Build a model of ..., make a video of .... draw a map of
the setting of ... ) but they aren't much help as long as the teacher
isn't interested in having that kind of activity going on in her
classroom.


On the other hand, that reminds me of something. A bright kid who
reads well but does not enjoy writing -- that could be another clue to
look into LD testing, either through the school or privately.

Louise

[Paula]

On Wed, 6 Dec 2006 23:08:01 EST, Louise >
wrote:

>The original poster mentioned that when a teacher does provide some
>extra assignment for her son, it is always of the form "write about
>..." and he really does not enjoy writing. Of course, more creative
>and more active options for enrichment are easy for the rest of us to
>dream up (Build a model of ..., make a video of .... draw a map of
>the setting of ... ) but they aren't much help as long as the teacher
>isn't interested in having that kind of activity going on in her
>classroom.

The tests that they use to qualify different students as gifted in the
district I work in results in a lot of gifted students who hate to
write, and often hate to read as well. But the guidelines for
enrichment activities for gifted kids are along the lines of writing
extra pages or extra reports. It drives me nuts as a counselor to
deal with the aftermath. We have kids being "punished" for being
gifted and parents who believe their kids are not working hard because
they are not getting straight A's (usually their lower grades are in
Language Arts and things like Social Studies which consist primarily
of reading and writing reports or taking written tests). I get really
tired of explaining that gifted does not mean good at every kind of
school task.

Having seen how hard the teachers in my schools work to try to keep
things interesting for a whole lot of students at different levels and
how much pressure there is to keep test scores up, I don't blame them
for not dreaming up all kinds of other activities for kids who aren't
good at or are bored with pencil and paper activities. Those that
used to are being pressured not to because standardized tests are
paper and pencil activities and it is all important that the kids be
able to sit for hours taking written tests and doing well on them.
Sometimes the teachers don't want to but often they just can't. That
is why I encourage parents to talk to the teacher about what the
student can do when bored. I've been surprised at some of the great
ideas that have come from student/teacher/parent collaboration. It
has to be something that works with the individual classroom as well
as the individual student, but there are usually lots of options. If
you ask the teacher what the student can do that would not be
disruptive instead of arguing with her about why you don't think what
your kid was doing should be considered disruptive, you get further.

For example, there is a huge difference in the message it sends when
Johnny pulls out a book and reads while the teacher is reading or
talking about something else out loud and the students seeing the
teacher tell Johnny he can go ahead and read his book since he has
already passed the test on whatever it is that she is teaching to the
class. My third grade daughter has an arrangement like that and the
teacher loves it. Other kids who like to read or do things other than
listen to the same concept be explained again are asking if they can
do what they like to do if they get a good grade on a pre-test. They
are more self-motivated and she can pinpoint what group teaching she
ends up doing to the specific needs of those who are still having
problems. But if my daughter had just pulled out her book, I would
have told her that is inappropriate because it sends the message to
her classmates that she can blow off the teacher when she is trying to
teach the class something.
>
>On the other hand, that reminds me of something. A bright kid who
>reads well but does not enjoy writing -- that could be another clue to
>look into LD testing, either through the school or privately.

Fits a lot of ADHD kids I work with. If it's ADHD, it's easy to
solve. Whatever the outcome, it's better to find out and start
addressing it specifically now than later.

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay

[Caledonia]

Louise wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Dec 2006 20:24:22 EST, "Caledonia" >
> wrote:

> >Do they have IEPs for gifted students (w/o disabilities that are
> >impairing their academic progress) where you are?
>
> Yes. My sister had one from 1979 (Grade 3) to 1990 (Grade 13). I was
> ten years older and envious as anything, particularly about the way
> that the program reviews included the child.
>
> Louise

Ah. To my knowledge, we don't have that here.

Interestingly enough, I was in the (then-new) GATE program as a kid,
and never, ever, participating in a program review. And I can certainly
vouch that my parents never did either, unless this was part of a
parent-teacher conference night event.

Caledonia

[cheng02]

I agree with the rest that exercise is important. They need a venue to release their pent up frustrations. Try to ensure he exercises everyday, maybe run 5 rounds a day to exhaust his energy.

Try to sit down with him as if you are in class. Help him to look around for something to keep him occupied and is acceptable by the teacher. This can lessen his movement.

For more ideas, go to www.raisingconfidentkids.com