Greegor
January 24th 07, 08:10 AM
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.true-crime/browse_thread/thread/61359d4af8376cda/818922ea390c63a2?hl=en#818922ea390c63a2
Newsgroups: alt.true-crime
Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
From: "tiny dancer" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:48:28 -0500
The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on
the
butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom
all
other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches
three,
they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time
to
have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why
should
the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
By JIM ELLIS
ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) - AirTran Airways on Tuesday defended its decision
to
remove a Massachusetts couple from a flight after their crying
3-year-old
daughter refused to take her seat before takeoff.
AirTran officials said they followed Federal Aviation Administration
rules
that children age 2 and above must have their own seat and be wearing a
seat
belt upon takeoff.
"The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other
112
passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to
remove the
family,'' AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.
Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from
Fort
Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter,
Elly.
"We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or
anything,''
Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their
daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap.
The
request was denied.
She was removed because "she was climbing under the seat and hitting
the
parents and wouldn't get in her seat'' during boarding, Graham-Weaver
said.
The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of
the
three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.
They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline
flies,
Graham-Weaver said.
The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.
http://gatewaynet.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_3-T&...
From: "bessie" Date: 23 Jan 2007 11:04:32 -0800
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
tiny dancer wrote:
> The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on the
> butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom all
> other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches three,
> they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
> Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time to
> have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why should
> the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
> Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
> By JIM ELLIS
> ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) - AirTran Airways on Tuesday defended its decision to
> remove a Massachusetts couple from a flight after their crying 3-year-old
> daughter refused to take her seat before takeoff.
> AirTran officials said they followed Federal Aviation Administration rules
> that children age 2 and above must have their own seat and be wearing a seat
> belt upon takeoff.
> ``The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other 112
> passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to remove the
> family,'' AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.
> Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from Fort
> Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter,
> Elly.
> ``We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything,''
> Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
> The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their
> daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap. The
> request was denied.
> She was removed because ``she was climbing under the seat and hitting the
> parents and wouldn't get in her seat'' during boarding, Graham-Weaver said.
> The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the
> three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.
> They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies,
> Graham-Weaver said.
> The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.
And AirTran and it's customers thank the idiot!
From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:25:00 -0900
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
...
> The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on the
> butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom all
> other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches
> three,
> they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
> Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time to
> have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why
> should
> the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
Pick the kid up, stick her in the seat and HOLD HER THERE. For goodness
sakes.
From: lenona Date: 23 Jan 2007 12:28:26 -0800
And no one seems to have asked the parents: "Don't you think it was
unfair to make her fly when she'd just had ear surgery and probably was
starting to feel severe pain already?"
Again, why should the passengers put up with that?
Lenona.
From: "JonesieCat" <Long Ago & Far Away> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007
09:45:27 +1100
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on the
> butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom all
> other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches
> three,
> they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
> Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time to
> have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why
> should
> the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
> Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
> By JIM ELLIS
> ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) - AirTran Airways on Tuesday defended its decision to
> remove a Massachusetts couple from a flight after their crying 3-year-old
> daughter refused to take her seat before takeoff.
> AirTran officials said they followed Federal Aviation Administration rules
> that children age 2 and above must have their own seat and be wearing a
> seat
> belt upon takeoff.
> ``The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other
> 112
> passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to remove
> the
> family,'' AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.
> Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from
> Fort
> Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter,
> Elly.
> ``We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything,''
> Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
> The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their
> daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap. The
> request was denied.
> She was removed because ``she was climbing under the seat and hitting the
> parents and wouldn't get in her seat'' during boarding, Graham-Weaver
> said.
> The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the
> three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.
> They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies,
> Graham-Weaver said.
> The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.
> http://gatewaynet.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_3-T&...
If any passenger, for any reason, illness, whatever, delayed an air
flight
15 minutes, the airline is likely justified in ejecting them.
BUT. The article does not say the *child delayed the flight for 15
minutes.
It simply says the flight was delayed 15 minutes. So when attendants
walked
thru and the kid wasn't in her seat then and there: they threw them off
the
plane. That's the way I read it. The dad said they were not allowed ANY
time
to deal with their child. The article supports this. I don't think the
airline would have given them free tickets otherwise. AirTran just
wanted to
keep to their flight schedule and not lose passengers (and $)
connecting at
the other end.
jc (I hate it when good parents get bashed for being good parents, and
when
people jump on the bandwagon to join in the bashing) (*NOT* directed at
you,
td)
From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:28:59 -0900
"JonesieCat" <Long Ago & Far Away> wrote in message
...
>
> jc (I hate it when good parents get bashed for being good parents, and
> when people jump on the bandwagon to join in the bashing) (*NOT* directed
> at you, td)
Well, I'm pretty anti-spanking - I think there are better ways to
discipline
your child
HOWEVER, unless this child was special needs, there is no reason a
three
year old should be throwing a tantrum. The only three year olds I have
EVER
met who still threw tantrums were my neice, who was coddled, comforted
every
time she threw a fit her entire toddlerdom (and shes four now and still
throwing inappropriate tantrums) and my friends special needs child.
The
whole "we didn't have time to comfort her" leads me to believe that
these
parents are like my brother and his wife - loving, caring and
wayyyyyyyyyyy
too sensitive to their childs tears. I love my child and when hes hurt
and
crying I'm concerned. I'm even concerned when he's not hurt and crying,
but
he cant' always get his way because he's crying (way to reward ****ty
behavior). In this particular case I would have picked my child up,
put the
child in the seat and said "Sorry you are angry hon, but you need to
sit in
your seat now. See mommy sits in her seat. Daddy sits in his seat.
The
nice lady over there sits in her seat" and then brought out a toy or
book to
distract.
This child was three and still hitting her parents. They couldnt'
extract
her from under the seats. This must mean they were asking her to come
out
instead of getting her out. Bad parenting, imo.
From: "tiny dancer" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:02:19 -0500
"Beth In Alaska" > wrote in message
...
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- Show quoted text -
> "JonesieCat" <Long Ago & Far Away> wrote in message
> ...
[i]
> > [I'm surprised you are pro-spanking in any case. There are plenty of
> > children in the world who would shriek louder & longer than ever if
> > somebody hit some part of their body, and with good reason. (I don't
> > believe it is nec abusive in certain families, but is certainly used as
an[i]
> > excuse by abusers in those other kinds of families. For that reason,
those
> > laws are good things, imho.)]
> > jc (I hate it when good parents get bashed for being good parents, and
> > when people jump on the bandwagon to join in the bashing) (*NOT*
directed
> > at you, td)
> Well, I'm pretty anti-spanking - I think there are better ways to
discipline
> your child
I use *spanking* for lack of a better term. I'm not against *popping*
a
hand or butt, depending upon the circumstances. Every child is
different.
Some toddlers respond to corrections, some respond to removing the
child
from the electrical outlets. Some are easily distracted. Some you can
tell
them NO NO, and remove them till hell freezes over and nothing seems to
deter them. Of course these are all just my opinion.
I remember when jake was just beginning to really get around. He
continually went for my cords plugged into outlets. I told him NO NO,
kept
getting up and directing him in another direction, etc. Finally as he
was
reaching up to yank a cord for the hundreth time, I grabbed his fist
and
popped it. Said "grandma said NO, jake, no no. No touch. I had a
really
firm voice, my most severe *look*, I'm sure you are well acquainted
with
*the look* one uses. ;-] But that *popping* of the hand worked. In
fact
the next time I caught him going for a plug, I gave him 'the look' and
said
'grandma said NO'. He started to reach his hand out towards the
outlet,
where upon I lifted my hand in an upwards motion, pre-popping if you
will.
Jake promptly stuck his hand behind his back so I couldn't pop it. He
gave
me this grin and that was the last time we had an 'outlet issue'. It
was
really funny, watching this 16 month old reason all this through. His
face,
expression, was priceless.
I can't speak for all, only my experience with my own kids. Each one
was
quite different in what they responded to. I will say though, there
was no
*need* for any sort of *popping* by the time they were three years old.
They had already learned what was acceptable and what wasn't, and that
they
were to listen to mom when she said something. The only time I recall
dealing out a spanking was for running in the street. Not *toddler*
running
into the street. *Child* 'old enough to know better' running into the
street.
- Hide quoted text -
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> HOWEVER, unless this child was special needs, there is no reason a three
> year old should be throwing a tantrum. The only three year olds I have
EVER
> met who still threw tantrums were my neice, who was coddled, comforted
every
> time she threw a fit her entire toddlerdom (and shes four now and still
> throwing inappropriate tantrums) and my friends special needs child. The
> whole "we didn't have time to comfort her" leads me to believe that these
> parents are like my brother and his wife - loving, caring and
wayyyyyyyyyyy
> too sensitive to their childs tears. I love my child and when hes hurt
and
> crying I'm concerned. I'm even concerned when he's not hurt and crying,
but
> he cant' always get his way because he's crying (way to reward ****ty
> behavior). In this particular case I would have picked my child up, put
the
> child in the seat and said "Sorry you are angry hon, but you need to sit
in
> your seat now. See mommy sits in her seat. Daddy sits in his seat. The
> nice lady over there sits in her seat" and then brought out a toy or book
to
> distract.
> This child was three and still hitting her parents. They couldnt' extract
> her from under the seats. This must mean they were asking her to come out
> instead of getting her out. Bad parenting, imo.
I can think of little I hate worse than a kid throwing a tantrum.
Luckily
none of mine were tantrum throwers. I remember flying once with all
three
of mine, when the baby was only about six or eight weeks old, the other
two
were three and five. We didn't have any problems. The girls all
behaved
fine. As you said, I brought a carry on with some toys and snacks to
keep
them occupied. None of my kids ever slapped/hit me.
What do you think Beth? Don't you find the first two years to be the
most
important as to instilling what behaviors are acceptable and what
aren't? I
mean, at the time, things like this weren't on TV programs and such.
When
my kids were young, I mean. That was back in the olden days of only
three
TV channels, ABC, CBS, & if one was lucky NBC. But I truly don't
recall
having any major issues with the kids. They accompanied me nearly
everywhere I went, as there weren't grandparents or aunts to leave 'em
with.
And I could take them anywhere and count on them to behave and not
break
anything. They even went to the dentist with me. They'd sit along the
wall
on the floor while I had my teeth worked on. My dentist enjoyed
*chatting*
with them. He thought they were a trip. He'd get them to tell him
*family
secrets* while mom had her mouth stuck open and couldn't tell 'em to be
quiet. ;-]
td
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From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:23:26 -0900
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
...
> I can think of little I hate worse than a kid throwing a tantrum. Luckily
> none of mine were tantrum throwers. I remember flying once with all three
> of mine, when the baby was only about six or eight weeks old, the other
> two
> were three and five. We didn't have any problems. The girls all behaved
> fine. As you said, I brought a carry on with some toys and snacks to keep
> them occupied. None of my kids ever slapped/hit me.
Consider yourself lucky.
I've got a hella tantrumer/biter.pincher here. Its something we don't
"allow" but still difficult to extinguish. With months consistency and
by
making it clear that tantrums don't get you your way, we've gotten them
to
be VERY short. However, I haven't really worked on extinguishing the
tantrums, as I am using screaming or yelling as an alternative to
biting or
pinching. I'd much rather have my kid scream than bite someone who
took
away his toy.
I know that parents can't always control their childs tantrums however
they
certainly shouldn't give in to them - especially about something like
sitting in your seat on an airplane on takeoff.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> What do you think Beth? Don't you find the first two years to be the most
> important as to instilling what behaviors are acceptable and what aren't?
> I
> mean, at the time, things like this weren't on TV programs and such. When
> my kids were young, I mean. That was back in the olden days of only three
> TV channels, ABC, CBS, & if one was lucky NBC. But I truly don't recall
> having any major issues with the kids. They accompanied me nearly
> everywhere I went, as there weren't grandparents or aunts to leave 'em
> with.
> And I could take them anywhere and count on them to behave and not break
> anything. They even went to the dentist with me. They'd sit along the
> wall
> on the floor while I had my teeth worked on. My dentist enjoyed
> *chatting*
> with them. He thought they were a trip. He'd get them to tell him
> *family
> secrets* while mom had her mouth stuck open and couldn't tell 'em to be
> quiet. ;-]
I think that not only the kids habits are created in the early years
but the
parents habits too. My brother's parenting drives me crazy. I
remember
when the Bitch (a FOND nickname for the younger niece -I swear its
fond) was
a year and a half and any time anyone else would sing, she would say
"NO NO"
and throw a fit. Her parents response was to have everyone stop
singing,
including her four year old sister (how FAIR IS THAT?). My response
was to
sing louder and make everyone sing, because a one and half year old
doesnt'
get too dictate everyone elses behavior. It really bothered me how
often
they expected Dana (my older niece) to give in to the little one - she
had
to give up toys, she couldnt' sing, it was truly horrible.
It just takes a little consistency and a little forethought about what
you
are teaching your kid. You give in when the kid screams NO about your
singing, what have you taught them?
From: "tiny dancer" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:52:15 -0500
"Beth In Alaska" > wrote in message
...
snipped>
> I've got a hella tantrumer/biter.pincher here. Its something we don't
> "allow" but still difficult to extinguish. With months consistency and by
> making it clear that tantrums don't get you your way, we've gotten them to
> be VERY short. However, I haven't really worked on extinguishing the
> tantrums, as I am using screaming or yelling as an alternative to biting
or
> pinching. I'd much rather have my kid scream than bite someone who took
> away his toy.
Yeah, I'm thinking screaming is better than biting or pinching. Have
you
tried the *naughty* chair? Robin uses it A LOT ;-) with jake and
the
twins. Well, it's not alot per kid, but when three are involved, the
naughty chair see's it's share of inhabitants. Does the little guy go
to
daycare or playschool? Was just wondering because I wondered how he
interacted with the other kids. I was watching Robin referee a dispute
between Jake and Zack yesterday. It ended with them each saying they
were
*sorry* and giving a hug. Of course it wasn't as quick and simple as I
typed it out here, but that's the way it ended anyway, courtesy of
Nanny
911.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> I know that parents can't always control their childs tantrums however
they
> certainly shouldn't give in to them - especially about something like
> sitting in your seat on an airplane on takeoff.
> > What do you think Beth? Don't you find the first two years to be the
most
> > important as to instilling what behaviors are acceptable and what
aren't?
> > I
> > mean, at the time, things like this weren't on TV programs and such.
When
> > my kids were young, I mean. That was back in the olden days of only
three
> > TV channels, ABC, CBS, & if one was lucky NBC. But I truly don't recall
> > having any major issues with the kids. They accompanied me nearly
> > everywhere I went, as there weren't grandparents or aunts to leave 'em
> > with.
> > And I could take them anywhere and count on them to behave and not break
> > anything. They even went to the dentist with me. They'd sit along the
> > wall
> > on the floor while I had my teeth worked on. My dentist enjoyed
> > *chatting*
> > with them. He thought they were a trip. He'd get them to tell him
> > *family
> > secrets* while mom had her mouth stuck open and couldn't tell 'em to be
> > quiet. ;-]
> I think that not only the kids habits are created in the early years but
the
> parents habits too. My brother's parenting drives me crazy. I remember
> when the Bitch (a FOND nickname for the younger niece -I swear its fond)
was
> a year and a half and any time anyone else would sing, she would say "NO
NO"
> and throw a fit. Her parents response was to have everyone stop singing,
> including her four year old sister (how FAIR IS THAT?). My response was
to
> sing louder and make everyone sing, because a one and half year old
doesnt'
> get too dictate everyone elses behavior. It really bothered me how often
> they expected Dana (my older niece) to give in to the little one - she had
> to give up toys, she couldnt' sing, it was truly horrible.
> It just takes a little consistency and a little forethought about what you
> are teaching your kid. You give in when the kid screams NO about your
> singing, what have you taught them?
Absolutely nothing except by screaming and yelling they can get their
own
way, and as you said 'everybody' in the house falls in order beneath
them.
:( It's a shame the older girl is involved too. I mean, the little
one
is going to milk getting her own way against her sister. Not exactly
*food*
for growing a close bond between sisters, I'd guess. Is your brother
older
or younger than you?
td
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From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:16:25 -0900
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
news:W4yth.680$ch1.222@bigfe9...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> "Beth In Alaska" > wrote in message
> ...
> snipped>
>> I've got a hella tantrumer/biter.pincher here. Its something we don't
>> "allow" but still difficult to extinguish. With months consistency and
>> by
>> making it clear that tantrums don't get you your way, we've gotten them
>> to
>> be VERY short. However, I haven't really worked on extinguishing the
>> tantrums, as I am using screaming or yelling as an alternative to biting
> or
>> pinching. I'd much rather have my kid scream than bite someone who took
>> away his toy.
> Yeah, I'm thinking screaming is better than biting or pinching. Have you
> tried the *naughty* chair? Robin uses it A LOT ;-) with jake and the
> twins. Well, it's not alot per kid, but when three are involved, the
> naughty chair see's it's share of inhabitants. Does the little guy go to
> daycare or playschool? Was just wondering because I wondered how he
> interacted with the other kids. I was watching Robin referee a dispute
> between Jake and Zack yesterday. It ended with them each saying they were
> *sorry* and giving a hug. Of course it wasn't as quick and simple as I
> typed it out here, but that's the way it ended anyway, courtesy of Nanny
> 911.
We do time outs, sure. They dont' magically extinguish temper tantrums
though.
>> It just takes a little consistency and a little forethought about what
>> you
>> are teaching your kid. You give in when the kid screams NO about your
>> singing, what have you taught them?
> Absolutely nothing except by screaming and yelling they can get their own
> way, and as you said 'everybody' in the house falls in order beneath them.
> :( It's a shame the older girl is involved too. I mean, the little one
> is going to milk getting her own way against her sister. Not exactly
> *food*
> for growing a close bond between sisters, I'd guess. Is your brother
> older
> or younger than you?
My brothers older. He spoiled the hell out of me too. But my mother
wouldnt' have allowed him to coddle my tantrums. My brother actually
cuddles her and says "Ohhh, poor baby" when shes throwing a fit. Its
horrible.
The sisters are quite close, thank goodness.
Newsgroups: alt.true-crime
Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
From: "tiny dancer" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:48:28 -0500
The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on
the
butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom
all
other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches
three,
they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time
to
have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why
should
the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
By JIM ELLIS
ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) - AirTran Airways on Tuesday defended its decision
to
remove a Massachusetts couple from a flight after their crying
3-year-old
daughter refused to take her seat before takeoff.
AirTran officials said they followed Federal Aviation Administration
rules
that children age 2 and above must have their own seat and be wearing a
seat
belt upon takeoff.
"The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other
112
passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to
remove the
family,'' AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.
Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from
Fort
Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter,
Elly.
"We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or
anything,''
Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their
daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap.
The
request was denied.
She was removed because "she was climbing under the seat and hitting
the
parents and wouldn't get in her seat'' during boarding, Graham-Weaver
said.
The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of
the
three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.
They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline
flies,
Graham-Weaver said.
The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.
http://gatewaynet.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_3-T&...
From: "bessie" Date: 23 Jan 2007 11:04:32 -0800
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
tiny dancer wrote:
> The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on the
> butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom all
> other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches three,
> they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
> Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time to
> have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why should
> the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
> Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
> By JIM ELLIS
> ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) - AirTran Airways on Tuesday defended its decision to
> remove a Massachusetts couple from a flight after their crying 3-year-old
> daughter refused to take her seat before takeoff.
> AirTran officials said they followed Federal Aviation Administration rules
> that children age 2 and above must have their own seat and be wearing a seat
> belt upon takeoff.
> ``The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other 112
> passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to remove the
> family,'' AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.
> Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from Fort
> Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter,
> Elly.
> ``We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything,''
> Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
> The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their
> daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap. The
> request was denied.
> She was removed because ``she was climbing under the seat and hitting the
> parents and wouldn't get in her seat'' during boarding, Graham-Weaver said.
> The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the
> three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.
> They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies,
> Graham-Weaver said.
> The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.
And AirTran and it's customers thank the idiot!
From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 11:25:00 -0900
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
...
> The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on the
> butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom all
> other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches
> three,
> they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
> Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time to
> have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why
> should
> the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
Pick the kid up, stick her in the seat and HOLD HER THERE. For goodness
sakes.
From: lenona Date: 23 Jan 2007 12:28:26 -0800
And no one seems to have asked the parents: "Don't you think it was
unfair to make her fly when she'd just had ear surgery and probably was
starting to feel severe pain already?"
Again, why should the passengers put up with that?
Lenona.
From: "JonesieCat" <Long Ago & Far Away> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007
09:45:27 +1100
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> The results a law that would forbid a parent from *spanking/popping on the
> butt* whatever you want to call it, an unruly disruptive child in whom all
> other *methods* of discipline have failed. By the time a kid reaches
> three,
> they should have already been taught to *listen* to their parents.
> Especially in situations such as this one. 15 minutes is a long time to
> have to *reason with* a child who is throwing a tantrum IMO. And why
> should
> the other hundred plus passengers have to put up with this crap?
> Toddler's Temper Ousts Family From Plane
> By JIM ELLIS
> ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) - AirTran Airways on Tuesday defended its decision to
> remove a Massachusetts couple from a flight after their crying 3-year-old
> daughter refused to take her seat before takeoff.
> AirTran officials said they followed Federal Aviation Administration rules
> that children age 2 and above must have their own seat and be wearing a
> seat
> belt upon takeoff.
> ``The flight was already delayed 15 minutes and in fairness to the other
> 112
> passengers on the plane, the crew made an operational decision to remove
> the
> family,'' AirTran spokeswoman Judy Graham-Weaver said.
> Julie and Gerry Kulesza, who were headed home to Boston on Jan. 14 from
> Fort
> Myers, said they just needed a little more time to calm their daughter,
> Elly.
> ``We weren't given an opportunity to hold her, console her or anything,''
> Julie Kulesza said in a telephone interview Tuesday.
> The Kuleszas said they told a flight attendant they had paid for their
> daughter's seat, but asked whether she could sit in her mother's lap. The
> request was denied.
> She was removed because ``she was climbing under the seat and hitting the
> parents and wouldn't get in her seat'' during boarding, Graham-Weaver
> said.
> The Orlando-based carrier reimbursed the family $595.80, the cost of the
> three tickets, and the Kuleszas flew home the next day.
> They also were offered three roundtrip tickets anywhere the airline flies,
> Graham-Weaver said.
> The father said his family would never fly AirTran again.
> http://gatewaynet.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story.jsp?floc=NW_3-T&...
If any passenger, for any reason, illness, whatever, delayed an air
flight
15 minutes, the airline is likely justified in ejecting them.
BUT. The article does not say the *child delayed the flight for 15
minutes.
It simply says the flight was delayed 15 minutes. So when attendants
walked
thru and the kid wasn't in her seat then and there: they threw them off
the
plane. That's the way I read it. The dad said they were not allowed ANY
time
to deal with their child. The article supports this. I don't think the
airline would have given them free tickets otherwise. AirTran just
wanted to
keep to their flight schedule and not lose passengers (and $)
connecting at
the other end.
jc (I hate it when good parents get bashed for being good parents, and
when
people jump on the bandwagon to join in the bashing) (*NOT* directed at
you,
td)
From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:28:59 -0900
"JonesieCat" <Long Ago & Far Away> wrote in message
...
>
> jc (I hate it when good parents get bashed for being good parents, and
> when people jump on the bandwagon to join in the bashing) (*NOT* directed
> at you, td)
Well, I'm pretty anti-spanking - I think there are better ways to
discipline
your child
HOWEVER, unless this child was special needs, there is no reason a
three
year old should be throwing a tantrum. The only three year olds I have
EVER
met who still threw tantrums were my neice, who was coddled, comforted
every
time she threw a fit her entire toddlerdom (and shes four now and still
throwing inappropriate tantrums) and my friends special needs child.
The
whole "we didn't have time to comfort her" leads me to believe that
these
parents are like my brother and his wife - loving, caring and
wayyyyyyyyyyy
too sensitive to their childs tears. I love my child and when hes hurt
and
crying I'm concerned. I'm even concerned when he's not hurt and crying,
but
he cant' always get his way because he's crying (way to reward ****ty
behavior). In this particular case I would have picked my child up,
put the
child in the seat and said "Sorry you are angry hon, but you need to
sit in
your seat now. See mommy sits in her seat. Daddy sits in his seat.
The
nice lady over there sits in her seat" and then brought out a toy or
book to
distract.
This child was three and still hitting her parents. They couldnt'
extract
her from under the seats. This must mean they were asking her to come
out
instead of getting her out. Bad parenting, imo.
From: "tiny dancer" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:02:19 -0500
"Beth In Alaska" > wrote in message
...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> "JonesieCat" <Long Ago & Far Away> wrote in message
> ...
[i]
> > [I'm surprised you are pro-spanking in any case. There are plenty of
> > children in the world who would shriek louder & longer than ever if
> > somebody hit some part of their body, and with good reason. (I don't
> > believe it is nec abusive in certain families, but is certainly used as
an[i]
> > excuse by abusers in those other kinds of families. For that reason,
those
> > laws are good things, imho.)]
> > jc (I hate it when good parents get bashed for being good parents, and
> > when people jump on the bandwagon to join in the bashing) (*NOT*
directed
> > at you, td)
> Well, I'm pretty anti-spanking - I think there are better ways to
discipline
> your child
I use *spanking* for lack of a better term. I'm not against *popping*
a
hand or butt, depending upon the circumstances. Every child is
different.
Some toddlers respond to corrections, some respond to removing the
child
from the electrical outlets. Some are easily distracted. Some you can
tell
them NO NO, and remove them till hell freezes over and nothing seems to
deter them. Of course these are all just my opinion.
I remember when jake was just beginning to really get around. He
continually went for my cords plugged into outlets. I told him NO NO,
kept
getting up and directing him in another direction, etc. Finally as he
was
reaching up to yank a cord for the hundreth time, I grabbed his fist
and
popped it. Said "grandma said NO, jake, no no. No touch. I had a
really
firm voice, my most severe *look*, I'm sure you are well acquainted
with
*the look* one uses. ;-] But that *popping* of the hand worked. In
fact
the next time I caught him going for a plug, I gave him 'the look' and
said
'grandma said NO'. He started to reach his hand out towards the
outlet,
where upon I lifted my hand in an upwards motion, pre-popping if you
will.
Jake promptly stuck his hand behind his back so I couldn't pop it. He
gave
me this grin and that was the last time we had an 'outlet issue'. It
was
really funny, watching this 16 month old reason all this through. His
face,
expression, was priceless.
I can't speak for all, only my experience with my own kids. Each one
was
quite different in what they responded to. I will say though, there
was no
*need* for any sort of *popping* by the time they were three years old.
They had already learned what was acceptable and what wasn't, and that
they
were to listen to mom when she said something. The only time I recall
dealing out a spanking was for running in the street. Not *toddler*
running
into the street. *Child* 'old enough to know better' running into the
street.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> HOWEVER, unless this child was special needs, there is no reason a three
> year old should be throwing a tantrum. The only three year olds I have
EVER
> met who still threw tantrums were my neice, who was coddled, comforted
every
> time she threw a fit her entire toddlerdom (and shes four now and still
> throwing inappropriate tantrums) and my friends special needs child. The
> whole "we didn't have time to comfort her" leads me to believe that these
> parents are like my brother and his wife - loving, caring and
wayyyyyyyyyyy
> too sensitive to their childs tears. I love my child and when hes hurt
and
> crying I'm concerned. I'm even concerned when he's not hurt and crying,
but
> he cant' always get his way because he's crying (way to reward ****ty
> behavior). In this particular case I would have picked my child up, put
the
> child in the seat and said "Sorry you are angry hon, but you need to sit
in
> your seat now. See mommy sits in her seat. Daddy sits in his seat. The
> nice lady over there sits in her seat" and then brought out a toy or book
to
> distract.
> This child was three and still hitting her parents. They couldnt' extract
> her from under the seats. This must mean they were asking her to come out
> instead of getting her out. Bad parenting, imo.
I can think of little I hate worse than a kid throwing a tantrum.
Luckily
none of mine were tantrum throwers. I remember flying once with all
three
of mine, when the baby was only about six or eight weeks old, the other
two
were three and five. We didn't have any problems. The girls all
behaved
fine. As you said, I brought a carry on with some toys and snacks to
keep
them occupied. None of my kids ever slapped/hit me.
What do you think Beth? Don't you find the first two years to be the
most
important as to instilling what behaviors are acceptable and what
aren't? I
mean, at the time, things like this weren't on TV programs and such.
When
my kids were young, I mean. That was back in the olden days of only
three
TV channels, ABC, CBS, & if one was lucky NBC. But I truly don't
recall
having any major issues with the kids. They accompanied me nearly
everywhere I went, as there weren't grandparents or aunts to leave 'em
with.
And I could take them anywhere and count on them to behave and not
break
anything. They even went to the dentist with me. They'd sit along the
wall
on the floor while I had my teeth worked on. My dentist enjoyed
*chatting*
with them. He thought they were a trip. He'd get them to tell him
*family
secrets* while mom had her mouth stuck open and couldn't tell 'em to be
quiet. ;-]
td
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:23:26 -0900
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
...
> I can think of little I hate worse than a kid throwing a tantrum. Luckily
> none of mine were tantrum throwers. I remember flying once with all three
> of mine, when the baby was only about six or eight weeks old, the other
> two
> were three and five. We didn't have any problems. The girls all behaved
> fine. As you said, I brought a carry on with some toys and snacks to keep
> them occupied. None of my kids ever slapped/hit me.
Consider yourself lucky.
I've got a hella tantrumer/biter.pincher here. Its something we don't
"allow" but still difficult to extinguish. With months consistency and
by
making it clear that tantrums don't get you your way, we've gotten them
to
be VERY short. However, I haven't really worked on extinguishing the
tantrums, as I am using screaming or yelling as an alternative to
biting or
pinching. I'd much rather have my kid scream than bite someone who
took
away his toy.
I know that parents can't always control their childs tantrums however
they
certainly shouldn't give in to them - especially about something like
sitting in your seat on an airplane on takeoff.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> What do you think Beth? Don't you find the first two years to be the most
> important as to instilling what behaviors are acceptable and what aren't?
> I
> mean, at the time, things like this weren't on TV programs and such. When
> my kids were young, I mean. That was back in the olden days of only three
> TV channels, ABC, CBS, & if one was lucky NBC. But I truly don't recall
> having any major issues with the kids. They accompanied me nearly
> everywhere I went, as there weren't grandparents or aunts to leave 'em
> with.
> And I could take them anywhere and count on them to behave and not break
> anything. They even went to the dentist with me. They'd sit along the
> wall
> on the floor while I had my teeth worked on. My dentist enjoyed
> *chatting*
> with them. He thought they were a trip. He'd get them to tell him
> *family
> secrets* while mom had her mouth stuck open and couldn't tell 'em to be
> quiet. ;-]
I think that not only the kids habits are created in the early years
but the
parents habits too. My brother's parenting drives me crazy. I
remember
when the Bitch (a FOND nickname for the younger niece -I swear its
fond) was
a year and a half and any time anyone else would sing, she would say
"NO NO"
and throw a fit. Her parents response was to have everyone stop
singing,
including her four year old sister (how FAIR IS THAT?). My response
was to
sing louder and make everyone sing, because a one and half year old
doesnt'
get too dictate everyone elses behavior. It really bothered me how
often
they expected Dana (my older niece) to give in to the little one - she
had
to give up toys, she couldnt' sing, it was truly horrible.
It just takes a little consistency and a little forethought about what
you
are teaching your kid. You give in when the kid screams NO about your
singing, what have you taught them?
From: "tiny dancer" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:52:15 -0500
"Beth In Alaska" > wrote in message
...
snipped>
> I've got a hella tantrumer/biter.pincher here. Its something we don't
> "allow" but still difficult to extinguish. With months consistency and by
> making it clear that tantrums don't get you your way, we've gotten them to
> be VERY short. However, I haven't really worked on extinguishing the
> tantrums, as I am using screaming or yelling as an alternative to biting
or
> pinching. I'd much rather have my kid scream than bite someone who took
> away his toy.
Yeah, I'm thinking screaming is better than biting or pinching. Have
you
tried the *naughty* chair? Robin uses it A LOT ;-) with jake and
the
twins. Well, it's not alot per kid, but when three are involved, the
naughty chair see's it's share of inhabitants. Does the little guy go
to
daycare or playschool? Was just wondering because I wondered how he
interacted with the other kids. I was watching Robin referee a dispute
between Jake and Zack yesterday. It ended with them each saying they
were
*sorry* and giving a hug. Of course it wasn't as quick and simple as I
typed it out here, but that's the way it ended anyway, courtesy of
Nanny
911.
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> I know that parents can't always control their childs tantrums however
they
> certainly shouldn't give in to them - especially about something like
> sitting in your seat on an airplane on takeoff.
> > What do you think Beth? Don't you find the first two years to be the
most
> > important as to instilling what behaviors are acceptable and what
aren't?
> > I
> > mean, at the time, things like this weren't on TV programs and such.
When
> > my kids were young, I mean. That was back in the olden days of only
three
> > TV channels, ABC, CBS, & if one was lucky NBC. But I truly don't recall
> > having any major issues with the kids. They accompanied me nearly
> > everywhere I went, as there weren't grandparents or aunts to leave 'em
> > with.
> > And I could take them anywhere and count on them to behave and not break
> > anything. They even went to the dentist with me. They'd sit along the
> > wall
> > on the floor while I had my teeth worked on. My dentist enjoyed
> > *chatting*
> > with them. He thought they were a trip. He'd get them to tell him
> > *family
> > secrets* while mom had her mouth stuck open and couldn't tell 'em to be
> > quiet. ;-]
> I think that not only the kids habits are created in the early years but
the
> parents habits too. My brother's parenting drives me crazy. I remember
> when the Bitch (a FOND nickname for the younger niece -I swear its fond)
was
> a year and a half and any time anyone else would sing, she would say "NO
NO"
> and throw a fit. Her parents response was to have everyone stop singing,
> including her four year old sister (how FAIR IS THAT?). My response was
to
> sing louder and make everyone sing, because a one and half year old
doesnt'
> get too dictate everyone elses behavior. It really bothered me how often
> they expected Dana (my older niece) to give in to the little one - she had
> to give up toys, she couldnt' sing, it was truly horrible.
> It just takes a little consistency and a little forethought about what you
> are teaching your kid. You give in when the kid screams NO about your
> singing, what have you taught them?
Absolutely nothing except by screaming and yelling they can get their
own
way, and as you said 'everybody' in the house falls in order beneath
them.
:( It's a shame the older girl is involved too. I mean, the little
one
is going to milk getting her own way against her sister. Not exactly
*food*
for growing a close bond between sisters, I'd guess. Is your brother
older
or younger than you?
td
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
From: "Beth In Alaska" Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:16:25 -0900
"tiny dancer" > wrote in message
news:W4yth.680$ch1.222@bigfe9...
- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
> "Beth In Alaska" > wrote in message
> ...
> snipped>
>> I've got a hella tantrumer/biter.pincher here. Its something we don't
>> "allow" but still difficult to extinguish. With months consistency and
>> by
>> making it clear that tantrums don't get you your way, we've gotten them
>> to
>> be VERY short. However, I haven't really worked on extinguishing the
>> tantrums, as I am using screaming or yelling as an alternative to biting
> or
>> pinching. I'd much rather have my kid scream than bite someone who took
>> away his toy.
> Yeah, I'm thinking screaming is better than biting or pinching. Have you
> tried the *naughty* chair? Robin uses it A LOT ;-) with jake and the
> twins. Well, it's not alot per kid, but when three are involved, the
> naughty chair see's it's share of inhabitants. Does the little guy go to
> daycare or playschool? Was just wondering because I wondered how he
> interacted with the other kids. I was watching Robin referee a dispute
> between Jake and Zack yesterday. It ended with them each saying they were
> *sorry* and giving a hug. Of course it wasn't as quick and simple as I
> typed it out here, but that's the way it ended anyway, courtesy of Nanny
> 911.
We do time outs, sure. They dont' magically extinguish temper tantrums
though.
>> It just takes a little consistency and a little forethought about what
>> you
>> are teaching your kid. You give in when the kid screams NO about your
>> singing, what have you taught them?
> Absolutely nothing except by screaming and yelling they can get their own
> way, and as you said 'everybody' in the house falls in order beneath them.
> :( It's a shame the older girl is involved too. I mean, the little one
> is going to milk getting her own way against her sister. Not exactly
> *food*
> for growing a close bond between sisters, I'd guess. Is your brother
> older
> or younger than you?
My brothers older. He spoiled the hell out of me too. But my mother
wouldnt' have allowed him to coddle my tantrums. My brother actually
cuddles her and says "Ohhh, poor baby" when shes throwing a fit. Its
horrible.
The sisters are quite close, thank goodness.