Gunnoe & Mariner (1997)

[Doan]

The following is a summary of the Gunnoe study, full text can be viewed at:

http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/journals/archive/ajdc/vol_151/no_8/oa6488a.htm

Title: Spanking and Children's Aggression...
[Abstract, August Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775] (c) AMA 1997

Toward a Developmental-Contextual Model of the Effects of Parental Spanking on
Children's Aggression
(Marjorie Lindner Gunnoe, PhD; Carrie Lea Mariner, MA )

Objective:
---------
To challenge the application of an unqualified social learning model to the
study of spanking, positing instead a developmental-contextual model in which
the effects of spanking depend on the meaning children ascribe to spanking.

Design:
------
Population-based survey data from 1112 children aged 4 to 11 years in the
National Survey of Families and Households. Controlled for several family
and child factors including children's baseline aggression.

Main Outcome Measures:
---------------------
Schoolyard fights and antisocial scores on the Behavior Problems Index at the
5-year follow-up.

Results:
-------
Structural equation modeling yielded main effects (P <=.05, change in chi
square) of children's age and race; spanking predicted fewer fights for
children aged 4 to 7 years and for children who are black and more fights
for children aged 8 to 11 years and for children who are white. Regression
analyses within subgroups yielded no evidence that spanking fostered
aggression in children younger than 6 years and supported claims of increased
aggression for only 1 subgroup: 8- to 11-year-old white boys in single-mother
families (P <=.05, F test).

Conclusions:
-----------
For most children, claims that spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded.
Other preventive effects and harmful effects of spanking may occur depending
on the child and the family context. Further efforts to identify moderators of
the effects of spanking on children's adjustment are necessary.

(Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775)

I feel sorry for white boys. ;-)

Doan

[0:->]

Doan wrote:
> The following is a summary of the Gunnoe study, full text can be viewed at:

Let's take a closer look.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't your position that "African
American children have a reduction in misbehavior when spanked?"

Let's look at a few of your comments and see if we can winnow some
reality out of your carefully constructed vague statements that appear
on the surface to be legitimate commitments (but are not):

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.parenting.spanking/msg/b248999c20316dbc?hl=en&
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2002 18:04:48 -0800
"In a context of a legitimate authority figure, a child will see a
spanking as concern for their well-being, for teaching them what is
right and wrong. I think this is what the studies pointed to with
African-American families. "

What, Doan, is a "legitimate authority figure" to a child in the context
of spanking and teaching? And for that matter, the concept of "right
and wrong" is somewhat shaky based on the demographics for rates and
African Americans.

While I do factor in the racist component, it dampens a bit if we look
at only violent crime. African Americans are over represented.

I hope you wouldn't argue that they are simply a more violent people. 0;]

Let's move along to other claims you've made.

Here's your pasted quote of Larzelere from a more extensive copy and
paste where he discusses the Gunnoe-Marriner study.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.parenting.spanking/msg/c0257b7696727551?hl=en&

.... Consider the study by Gunnoe and Mariner (1997),4 for example.
Gershoff (2002) summarized their associations between spanking
frequency and either aggression or antisocial behavior five years later,
resulting in apparently detrimental "effect sizes." Yet
Gunnoe and Mariner themselves concluded, "For most children, claims that
spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded" (p. 768). They
based this conclusion on statistics that took into account the excessive
misbehavior of the child in the first place. Under those
circumstances, spanking caused reductions in fighting five years later
in 3 subgroups: African-Americans, 4- to 7-year-olds, and
girls. In contrast, it caused increases in fighting five years later in
2 subgroups: European-Americans and 8- to 11-year-olds. It
also caused increases in antisocial behavior more consistently, but
these analyses had the additional problem of being based on the
same data source (the mother: Baumrind et al., 2002).5 ...

Consider carefully what he's claiming. It does not support YOUR
position, if I understand that correctly.

Do 4 to 7 year olds (the AA boys showing less fighting) compare
logically with 8 to 11 year old white boys as to age?

No, of course not.

Do 4 to 7 year olds of any race, tend to have more fights than boys of 8
to 11?

What was the finding with AA boys 8 to 10?

What variables are not being considered about those two populations?

>
> http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/journals/archive/ajdc/vol_151/no_8/oa6488a.htm
>
> Title: Spanking and Children's Aggression...
> [Abstract, August Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775] (c) AMA 1997
>
> Toward a Developmental-Contextual Model of the Effects of Parental Spanking on
> Children's Aggression
> (Marjorie Lindner Gunnoe, PhD; Carrie Lea Mariner, MA )
>
> Objective:
> ---------
> To challenge the application of an unqualified social learning model to the
> study of spanking, positing instead a developmental-contextual model in which
> the effects of spanking depend on the meaning children ascribe to spanking.
>
> Design:
> ------
> Population-based survey data from 1112 children aged 4 to 11 years in the
> National Survey of Families and Households. Controlled for several family
> and child factors including children's baseline aggression.
>
> Main Outcome Measures:
> ---------------------
> Schoolyard fights and antisocial scores on the Behavior Problems Index at the
> 5-year follow-up.
>
> Results:
> -------
> Structural equation modeling yielded main effects (P <=.05, change in chi
> square) of children's age and race; spanking predicted fewer fights for
> children aged 4 to 7 years and for children who are black and more fights
> for children aged 8 to 11 years and for children who are white. Regression
> analyses within subgroups yielded no evidence that spanking fostered
> aggression in children younger than 6 years and supported claims of increased
> aggression for only 1 subgroup: 8- to 11-year-old white boys in single-mother
> families (P <=.05, F test).

Did G and M account for frequency? Did they account for the schools
application of discipline? Did they account for the problems with self
reporting?

Black children are usually taught with considerably more emphasis that
"fighting" is a bad thing. Mom and dad foresee the problems, such as
more school discipline and educational disruption.

White kids parents often think it's important for boys to learn to
"defend themselves," and are more tolerant of such acts. They aren't
considered "aggressive," or high risk behaviors, just boys being boys.

And that, Doan, is a product of being born into a racist society. It's
far more dangerous for black male children to have a reputation for
"fighting." Hence it gets a lot of attention from parents that white
children get much less of.
>
> Conclusions:
> -----------
> For most children, claims that spanking teaches aggression seem unfounded.

That in itself is not supported, even by G and M. or they would not
say ...

> ... Other preventive effects and harmful effects of spanking may occur depending
> on the child and the family context. Further efforts to identify moderators of
> the effects of spanking on children's adjustment are necessary.

That "may occur" statement shows that this cannot be claimed as a causal
study. And that is reinforced by the final sentence above.

It reminds me of Larzelere doing a study on "Reasoning versus spanking"
as though parents that don't spank are constrained to ONLY reasoning.

Brilliant. Just dump the variables that might have a much stronger
effect and pretend that spanking works and "reasoning" doesn't.

How would we know what parents that try more than reasoning with a child
would have as outcomes?

Weren't you going to show stronger claims than this?

>
> (Arch Pediatr Adolesc Med. 1997;151:768-775)
>
> I feel sorry for white boys. ;-)

Why, Doan?

8 to 11 year olds tend to fight more.

How many 8 to 11 year old AA male children were in the collected data
group?

Can you show a study of the same kind on say South East Asian culture
children that shows that spanking is more effective than reasoning?

Would you say, for instance, that in cultures, such as Thailand in
general, where the society tends to be Buddhist in social values, that
failure to spank results in an outcome of more children developing
'sociopathy' such as Ken claimed, but ran from proving?

Are Thai parents so limited in parenting repertoire that 'reasoning' is
the only method available to them?

Or is ALL non-cp parenting going to be labeled, by the spanking crowd,
as 'reasoning,' as Larzelere seems to have gravitated toward?

You spanking enthusiast sure have a funny way with research.

>
> Doan
>

Kane