Middle name help [Archive] - ParentingBanter.com

Nic H

June 18th 04, 10:16 PM

Thanks for the link :-) Micaela Corinne is not bad, I'll run it by the hubby
when he gets home from work. Not sure I like the E on the end, it's a fairly
common name back home, never seen it spelt that way though.

Thanks again,

Nic H

"Daye" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:54:15 GMT, "Nic H" >
> wrote:
>
> >Help? Anyone?
>
> Micaela Renee
> Micaela Michelle
> Micaela Marie
> Micaela Brigitte
> Micaela Camille
> Micaela Corinne
> Micaela Jeanne
> Micaela Louise
> Micaela Nicole
> Micaela Simone
>
> If you don't like any of those names, there is a good list of French
> girl names at:
> http://french.about.com/library/travel/bl-fr-names-f.htm
>
>
> --
> Daye
> Momma to Jayan and Leopold
> See Jayan and Leo: http://www.aloofhosting.com/jayleo/
> Updated 28 Feb 2004

Leslie

June 18th 04, 10:36 PM

Micaela Elise
Micaela Camille
Micaela Rose
Micaela Marie
Micaela Micheline
Micaela Helene
Micaela Simone

I think any one syllable name or a two syllable name with the accent on the
second syllable would sound nice.

Leslie

zolw

June 19th 04, 12:03 AM

OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
changed of course).

So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
about this for too long :))

Mona
due 07-31-04

Richard wrote:
> Nic H > wrote:
> : We're having some trouble coming up with a suitable middle name *sigh* we
> : are having a little bubba girl in August, and decided on Micaela. Spelling
> : it this way, because the Mikayla I knew as a kidback home got the nickname
> : "Kayla" and we both hate that.
> :
> : I'm not into "traditional" type names at all, and this name has to go with
> : Helm as a last name. No maiden names, no family member names for us either,
> : yuck. I'd like something French, my daughter has a French middle name, as do
> : I, but haven't found anything that suits.
> :
> : Help? Anyone?
>
> First, congratulations on picking such a beautiful name for your daughter (with
> such an attractive spelling as well).
>
> At the moment, our daughter has no middle name. We were told that we could
> not leave the hospital without completing her birth certificate. She was
> born very, very early Friday morning, which meant we would leave the hospital
> Sunday afternoon. We had a few options selected, some Hawaiian, some French,
> and were lazily narrowing down our choices late Saturday afternoon when the
> phone rang. The clerk who handles the birth certificates was leaving in five
> minutes, we had to specify a full name *NOW*. We just looked at each other,
> shrugging our shoulders.
>
> I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration, she could
> choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to court
> to make the change legal.
>
> Richard
> Micaela's dad
>

Ericka Kammerer

June 19th 04, 12:13 AM

Richard wrote:

> At the moment, our daughter has no middle name. We were told that we could
> not leave the hospital without completing her birth certificate.

For the edification of anyone else who might get fed
this line, it is incorrect. You do not have to complete the
birth certificate at the hospital. It just means that if
you don't, you will have to go do it yourself at the appropriate
location later on.

> I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration, she could
> choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to court
> to make the change legal.

My sister has no middle name, and my parents checked
out the options when she was older. You really don't have
to get her name changed legally. As long as there is no
intent to defraud, she can just start using it with no
legal change necessary.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer

June 19th 04, 12:15 AM

zolw wrote:

> OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
> Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
> this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
> changed of course).
>
> So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
> serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
> about this for too long :))

There is no particular purpose. It's just another
name. Some people even choose to have more than one middle
name. Individuals may use the name to honor someone in
particular or include the mother's maiden name, or whatever,
but that's purely personal choice. It's just another name.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Tori M.

June 19th 04, 12:51 AM

Kazh

June 19th 04, 12:51 AM

*SHOCK*=20
In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it) and =
then have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office and =
register the birth.=20
If parents are married, either parent can register the birth, so you =
both don't have to go along.
If parents are unmarried you both need to go along to register the birth =
IF the father wants his name on the birth certificate.

Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for =
''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the =
unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter =
offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the =
''legitimate'' book !!

"Richard" > wrote in message =
...
At the moment, our daughter has no middle name. We were told that we =
could
not leave the hospital without completing her birth certificate.

The clerk who handles the birth certificates was leaving in five
minutes, we had to specify a full name *NOW*. We just looked at each =
other,
shrugging our shoulders.

I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration, =
she could
choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to =
court
to make the change legal.

Vicky Bilaniuk

June 19th 04, 12:55 AM

Nic H wrote:

> Help? Anyone?

Oh I wish I could. Right now all I can say is that I feel your pain.

Nikki

June 19th 04, 12:57 AM

"zolw" > wrote in message
news:uxKAc.112579$3x.1218@attbi_s54...
> OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
> Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
> this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
> changed of course).
>
> So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
> serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
> about this for too long :))
>

It helps where there is every two people with the same first name and second
name.
A example of this would be john smith. (just google his name, or bill wood
or something else common )
So if something went wrong at the tax office, phone company, post office,
crime lab, or what ever else, At least having a middle name can seperate
you apart from the one who did the wrong thing.

This happned to my mum about 20 years ago. Another person with her name went
and run up a phone bill worth $1 or 2 thousdand dollars. They sued my mum
for the money. The judge threw it out as they had the wrong person. The
other perons middle name was Julie where as my mums wasn't. That was the
only differance. The phone company then realised that they sued the wrong
person. If my mum didn't have a middle name, she would have had to pay the
bill. As she wouldn't have been able to prove it wasn't her. (yes they both
lived at different address but at different times and therefore said she had
run up the bill then moved house.)

I know of one relative whom didn't give middle names to her child and now
wishes she did.

Nic

> Mona
> due 07-31-04
>
> Richard wrote:
> > Nic H > wrote:
> > : We're having some trouble coming up with a suitable middle name *sigh*
we
> > : are having a little bubba girl in August, and decided on Micaela.
Spelling
> > : it this way, because the Mikayla I knew as a kidback home got the
nickname
> > : "Kayla" and we both hate that.
> > :
> > : I'm not into "traditional" type names at all, and this name has to go
with
> > : Helm as a last name. No maiden names, no family member names for us
either,
> > : yuck. I'd like something French, my daughter has a French middle name,
as do
> > : I, but haven't found anything that suits.
> > :
> > : Help? Anyone?
> >
> > First, congratulations on picking such a beautiful name for your
daughter (with
> > such an attractive spelling as well).
> >
> > At the moment, our daughter has no middle name. We were told that we
could
> > not leave the hospital without completing her birth certificate. She
was
> > born very, very early Friday morning, which meant we would leave the
hospital
> > Sunday afternoon. We had a few options selected, some Hawaiian, some
French,
> > and were lazily narrowing down our choices late Saturday afternoon when
the
> > phone rang. The clerk who handles the birth certificates was leaving in
five
> > minutes, we had to specify a full name *NOW*. We just looked at each
other,
> > shrugging our shoulders.
> >
> > I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration,
she could
> > choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to
court
> > to make the change legal.
> >
> > Richard
> > Micaela's dad
> >
>

Vicky Bilaniuk

June 19th 04, 01:00 AM

Nic H wrote:

> Thanks for the link :-) Micaela Corinne is not bad, I'll run it by the hubby
> when he gets home from work. Not sure I like the E on the end, it's a fairly
> common name back home, never seen it spelt that way though.

Well if you want anything *really* French for a girl, it's likely going
to have an e at the end.

Vicky Bilaniuk

June 19th 04, 01:04 AM

Kazh wrote:

> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for ''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the ''legitimate'' book !!

This is the part I find shocking. WOW.

Vicky Bilaniuk

June 19th 04, 01:11 AM

Nikki wrote:

> "zolw" > wrote in message
> news:uxKAc.112579$3x.1218@attbi_s54...
>
>>OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
>>Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
>>this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
>>changed of course).
>>
>>So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
>>serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
>>about this for too long :))
>>
>
>
> It helps where there is every two people with the same first name and second
> name.
> A example of this would be john smith. (just google his name, or bill wood
> or something else common )
> So if something went wrong at the tax office, phone company, post office,
> crime lab, or what ever else, At least having a middle name can seperate
> you apart from the one who did the wrong thing.

Things get interesting when you have two people with all names in
common. My father and an uncle (they were unrelated - related only by
marriage in extended family) had the same name (the common last name was
a total fluke, although there was probably a very distant connection
somewhere *way* back in the family tree). I can't remember for sure but
I think the middle names were the same, too. One had a bad credit
rating (my uncle) and the other had a normal one. It was...
Interesting. One of them is dead now, so I guess the problem for the
other is finally over with. ;-)

zolw

June 19th 04, 01:33 AM

Well this makes sense, but doesn't a person's social security number
also help in name mix ups etc.?

Nikki wrote:

> "zolw" > wrote in message
> news:uxKAc.112579$3x.1218@attbi_s54...
>
>>OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
>>Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
>>this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
>>changed of course).
>>
>>So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
>>serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
>>about this for too long :))
>>
>
>
> It helps where there is every two people with the same first name and second
> name.
> A example of this would be john smith. (just google his name, or bill wood
> or something else common )
> So if something went wrong at the tax office, phone company, post office,
> crime lab, or what ever else, At least having a middle name can seperate
> you apart from the one who did the wrong thing.
>
> This happned to my mum about 20 years ago. Another person with her name went
> and run up a phone bill worth $1 or 2 thousdand dollars. They sued my mum
> for the money. The judge threw it out as they had the wrong person. The
> other perons middle name was Julie where as my mums wasn't. That was the
> only differance. The phone company then realised that they sued the wrong
> person. If my mum didn't have a middle name, she would have had to pay the
> bill. As she wouldn't have been able to prove it wasn't her. (yes they both
> lived at different address but at different times and therefore said she had
> run up the bill then moved house.)
>
> I know of one relative whom didn't give middle names to her child and now
> wishes she did.
>
> Nic
>
>
>
>
>>Mona
>>due 07-31-04
>>
>>Richard wrote:
>>
>>>Nic H > wrote:
>>>: We're having some trouble coming up with a suitable middle name *sigh*
>
> we
>
>>>: are having a little bubba girl in August, and decided on Micaela.
>
> Spelling
>
>>>: it this way, because the Mikayla I knew as a kidback home got the
>
> nickname
>
>>>: "Kayla" and we both hate that.
>>>:
>>>: I'm not into "traditional" type names at all, and this name has to go
>
> with
>
>>>: Helm as a last name. No maiden names, no family member names for us
>
> either,
>
>>>: yuck. I'd like something French, my daughter has a French middle name,
>
> as do
>
>>>: I, but haven't found anything that suits.
>>>:
>>>: Help? Anyone?
>>>
>>>First, congratulations on picking such a beautiful name for your
>
> daughter (with
>
>>>such an attractive spelling as well).
>>>
>>>At the moment, our daughter has no middle name. We were told that we
>
> could
>
>>>not leave the hospital without completing her birth certificate. She
>
> was
>
>>>born very, very early Friday morning, which meant we would leave the
>
> hospital
>
>>>Sunday afternoon. We had a few options selected, some Hawaiian, some
>
> French,
>
>>>and were lazily narrowing down our choices late Saturday afternoon when
>
> the
>
>>>phone rang. The clerk who handles the birth certificates was leaving in
>
> five
>
>>>minutes, we had to specify a full name *NOW*. We just looked at each
>
> other,
>
>>>shrugging our shoulders.
>>>
>>>I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration,
>
> she could
>
>>>choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to
>
> court
>
>>>to make the change legal.
>>>
>>>Richard
>>>Micaela's dad
>>>
>>
>
>

zolw

June 19th 04, 01:36 AM

Gosh that sounds so bad! I mean it is like calling children of unmarried
parents *******s (on the birth certificate). I had much more faith in
the British system. :(

How is it in the UK? Do you have cohabitating laws?

Kazh wrote:

> *SHOCK*
> In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it) and then have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office and register the birth.
> If parents are married, either parent can register the birth, so you both don't have to go along.
> If parents are unmarried you both need to go along to register the birth IF the father wants his name on the birth certificate.
>
> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for ''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the ''legitimate'' book !!
>
>

zolw

June 19th 04, 01:41 AM

Oh yeah, another question. So is there any difference between legitimate
children & illegitimate children? I mean, do the illegitamate pay more
taxes or have less civil rights? The reason I am asking is that I wonder
why they would seperate or label. I mean what is the thinking or reson
behind it?

Kazh wrote:

> *SHOCK*
> In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it) and then have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office and register the birth.
> If parents are married, either parent can register the birth, so you both don't have to go along.
> If parents are unmarried you both need to go along to register the birth IF the father wants his name on the birth certificate.
>
> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for ''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the ''legitimate'' book !!
>
>
> "Richard" > wrote in message ...
> At the moment, our daughter has no middle name. We were told that we could
> not leave the hospital without completing her birth certificate.
>
> The clerk who handles the birth certificates was leaving in five
> minutes, we had to specify a full name *NOW*. We just looked at each other,
> shrugging our shoulders.
>
> I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration, she could
> choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to court
> to make the change legal.
>
>
>

Cathy

June 19th 04, 02:51 AM

Richard wrote:
>
> I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration,
> she could choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and
> accompany her to court to make the change legal.
>
> Richard
> Micaela's dad

That is so neat! I got a middle name for my 10th birthday (my father was
from an English family where middle names weren't needed, so why did my
older brother get one?!). It made me feel really special to be able to
choose it.

Cathy

Nic H

June 19th 04, 03:34 AM

My middle name is French, it ends with an A... My first daughter's is also
French, ends with an E though as I noticed a lot do. What I was concerned
about really, is that when I look at Corinne, it looks like you'd pronounce
it "korr-ene" (sounds like chlorine) whereas Corinn looks the way I say it.

Nic H

"Vicky Bilaniuk" > wrote in message
...
> Nic H wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the link :-) Micaela Corinne is not bad, I'll run it by the
hubby
> > when he gets home from work. Not sure I like the E on the end, it's a
fairly
> > common name back home, never seen it spelt that way though.
>
> Well if you want anything *really* French for a girl, it's likely going
> to have an e at the end.
>

Nic H

June 19th 04, 03:38 AM

What a lovely story :-) Seems a shame they bullied you, but it's a lovely
thing to do for her when she's older, I'm sure she'll appreciate it and it's
probably better that it turned out this way.

Nic H

"Richard" > wrote in message
...
> Nic H > wrote:
> : We're having some trouble coming up with a suitable middle name *sigh*
we
> : are having a little bubba girl in August, and decided on Micaela.
Spelling
> : it this way, because the Mikayla I knew as a kidback home got the
nickname
> : "Kayla" and we both hate that.
> :
> : I'm not into "traditional" type names at all, and this name has to go
with
> : Helm as a last name. No maiden names, no family member names for us
either,
> : yuck. I'd like something French, my daughter has a French middle name,
as do
> : I, but haven't found anything that suits.
> :
> : Help? Anyone?
>
> First, congratulations on picking such a beautiful name for your daughter
(with
> such an attractive spelling as well).
>
> At the moment, our daughter has no middle name. We were told that we
could
> not leave the hospital without completing her birth certificate. She was
> born very, very early Friday morning, which meant we would leave the
hospital
> Sunday afternoon. We had a few options selected, some Hawaiian, some
French,
> and were lazily narrowing down our choices late Saturday afternoon when
the
> phone rang. The clerk who handles the birth certificates was leaving in
five
> minutes, we had to specify a full name *NOW*. We just looked at each
other,
> shrugging our shoulders.
>
> I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration, she
could
> choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to
court
> to make the change legal.
>
> Richard
> Micaela's dad
>

Vicky Bilaniuk

June 19th 04, 03:42 AM

Nic H wrote:

> My middle name is French, it ends with an A... My first daughter's is also
> French, ends with an E though as I noticed a lot do. What I was concerned
> about really, is that when I look at Corinne, it looks like you'd pronounce
> it "korr-ene" (sounds like chlorine) whereas Corinn looks the way I say it.

Really? With a single n I can see people using a long i but with two
n's I see only pronounciation with a short i. Besides, at least where I
live, Corinne is not a totally unknown name, and people know how to
pronounce it. :-)

D&K Condron

June 19th 04, 05:21 AM

Tori M.

June 19th 04, 05:27 AM

No when I was a child and my mom called VICTORIA IRENE WATERHOUSE GET YOUR
BUTT DOWN HERE I knew I was in more trouble then if I just heard TORI COME
HERE!... hehehe

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04
"D&K Condron" > wrote in message
...
>
> "zolw" > wrote in message
> news:uxKAc.112579$3x.1218@attbi_s54...
> > OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
> > Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
> > this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
> > changed of course).
> >
> > So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
> > serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
> > about this for too long :))
> >
>
> My silly answer (utter nonsense, of course :) is that it gives parents a
way
> to let their kids know they are getting fed up. When I was little, if my
> mom yelled "Katrina!" it was serious. But if I got a "Katrina Marie!", I
> was in *big* trouble. And Lord help me if I got called all three names!!
>
> Maybe it's a southern thing... ;)
>
> Kat
>
>

Sophie

June 19th 04, 01:27 PM

> I am not positive but I am pretty sure that the middle name does nothing
> more then sound pretty with the first name;) It also gives you a secound
> name to chose from if you like OR something that your children may name
> their children someday. I never gave any thought to not having a middle
> name with my kids but it may just be a cultural thing.
>
> Tori
> --
> Bonnie 3/20/02
> Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04

Actually we never cared how the middle name sounded with the first name, or
the last name, cos we never say all 3 names together anyway, not even when
the kid is in BIG trouble :)

I don't have a middle name (neither does my sister or mom) and with the
military it's a huge pain when filling out forms. They look at me then
don't know what to do. Duh, even I know my now just put NMI (no middle
initial) or NMN (no middle name) in the blank.

We gave all the kids a middle name but we are having a hard time finding a
meaningful one if this one's a boy.

Sophie

June 19th 04, 01:33 PM

"zolw" > wrote in message
news:6ZLAc.75250$Sw.16171@attbi_s51...
> Oh yeah, another question. So is there any difference between legitimate
> children & illegitimate children? I mean, do the illegitamate pay more
> taxes or have less civil rights? The reason I am asking is that I wonder
> why they would seperate or label. I mean what is the thinking or reson
> behind it?

I don't *think* it makes any difference here. I know for us being military,
the child is the military person's dependant, so the child gets medical
coverage and all the benefits any military child would get. It's the
child's mother, since they're not married, who is not entitled to anything -
no benefits, no privledges, no medical.

> *SHOCK*
> In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it) and then
have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office and register the
birth.

We don't *have* to name the baby before we leave the hospital either. It's
just *much* easier. And we've had almost 10 months, I'd say if you can't
come up with a name by then....I dunno.

> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for
''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' >births.........if the
unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter
offering to re-register their >''''illegimate'' child in the ''legitimate''
book !!

This FLOORS me!!! Seriously???

Amy

June 19th 04, 03:07 PM

"Richard" > wrote in message
...

> I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration, she
could
> choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany her to
court
> to make the change legal.
>

What a neat idea :-) Whatever you call kids, they will no doubt at some
stage wish they'd been called something else, so why not give them the
option?
A similar thing happened with my younger sister, in fact she had no name at
all for some time. It caused them hassles, there was a census at the time
and authorities were insisting she was named, but my parents found there was
no legal requirement, and she could be listed simply as 'baby -----'
indefinitely. They were going to let her name herself, but relented in the
end, it got too awkward....and considering some of the names her dolls had
later on, it's probably a good thing they picked it ;-)

Sue

June 19th 04, 04:09 PM

> "zolw" > wrote in message
> news:uxKAc.112579$3x.1218@attbi_s54...
> > OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?

It can also distinguish you from other people, especially if the name is
really popular. I'm thinking of schools, doctors, filling out tax forms and
so on.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Sue

June 19th 04, 04:15 PM

Nikki > wrote in message
> It helps where there is every two people with the same first name and
second
> name.

> So if something went wrong at the tax office, phone company, post office,
> crime lab, or what ever else, At least having a middle name can seperate
> you apart from the one who did the wrong thing.

I happen to have a popular name. It happened when I was pregnant with my
middle daughter. I got a bill from the doctor, but as I looked over the
bill and the diagnosis, it happened to say miscarriage. As I later found
out, there happened to be two of us with the same name in the practice. I
can't tell you how upset I was. I thought I had a miscarriage and the doctor
didn't tell me. So having a middle name helped me tremendously with this
problem.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Sue

June 19th 04, 04:16 PM

zolw > wrote in message
news:ARLAc.52650$Hg2.42459@attbi_s04...
> Well this makes sense, but doesn't a person's social security number
> also help in name mix ups etc.?

Not when someone has stolen your SS. That happened to my husband.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Hillary Israeli

June 20th 04, 02:19 AM

In >,
Richard > wrote:

*phone rang. The clerk who handles the birth certificates was leaving in five
*minutes, we had to specify a full name *NOW*. We just looked at each other,
*shrugging our shoulders.

How lame of them.

What would have happened if you'd said "we decline to fill that paperwork
out today, as we have not yet decided on a name?" You said they told you
you couldn't leave the hospital without doing it. Would they have actually
made you stay??

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

Leanne

June 20th 04, 01:34 PM

> OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
> Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
> this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
> changed of course).
>
> So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
> serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
> about this for too long :))
>
> Mona
> due 07-31-04

Depends on where you are... my heritage for example, has 1, 2 or 3 middle
names, each seperating which social class you are in.

other people have them to sound pretty and other people have them because
it's was everyone else does :)

hth
Leanne.

Ericka Kammerer

June 20th 04, 02:44 PM

Richard wrote:
> Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> : My sister has no middle name, and my parents checked
> : out the options when she was older. You really don't have
> : to get her name changed legally. As long as there is no
> : intent to defraud, she can just start using it with no
> : legal change necessary.
>
> That's true in my state as well, but I feel the legal process will add a
> coolness factor for Micaela. There is the possibility, of course, that she
> will just brush off the whole idea.

You never know until you get there ;-) I'm sure
the court proceedings would add a level of importance to
the whole affair; however, it may come with an unacceptably
high cost. My parents would have paid for my sister to
change her name legally, but the lawyer they consulted
pretty much thought they were nuts for considering it,
and my sister figured she had better things to do with
the money ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

Daye

June 20th 04, 10:08 PM

On 20 Jun 2004 19:43:57 GMT, Richard > wrote:

>You're right; we won't know until we get there. In my state, I think that
>the filing fee is around $40, plus another $2 to have the birth certificate
>"corrected".

In Victoria, Australia, it costs around AUD41 to get a name changed.
You just submit the paperwork, and it is done.

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan and Leopold
See Jayan and Leo: http://www.aloofhosting.com/jayleo/
Updated 28 Feb 2004

Kazh

June 20th 04, 10:19 PM

"Sophie" > wrote in message =
...
"zolw" > wrote in message
news:6ZLAc.75250$Sw.16171@attbi_s51...
> In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it) and =
then
have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office and register =
the
birth.

We don't *have* to name the baby before we leave the hospital either. =
It's
just *much* easier. And we've had almost 10 months, I'd say if you =
can't
come up with a name by then....I dunno.

>>> If you don't HAVE to name the baby before leaving hospital why is =
this registrar pushing for the name NOW ??

> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for
''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' >births.........if =
the
unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter
offering to re-register their >''''illegimate'' child in the =
''legitimate''
book !!

This FLOORS me!!! Seriously???

>>> Yep, my son (now 17) was born before we were married and when we =
said our surnames she said ''oh I'll have to fetch the other book'' =
which has ILLEGITIMATE written on the front !!...........2 weeks after =
we got married we recieved a letter through the post saying we could now =
register our child in the ''lrgitimate'' book...........I threw it =
away........he is registered what difference does it make as to which =
book he's in !!!

Kazh

June 20th 04, 10:20 PM

My 17 year old is in the ''illegitimate'' book and to be honest we've =
never noticed any difference...........I have no idea WHY they do it !!

"zolw" > wrote in message =
news:6ZLAc.75250$Sw.16171@attbi_s51...
Oh yeah, another question. So is there any difference between legitimate =

children & illegitimate children? I mean, do the illegitamate pay more=20
taxes or have less civil rights? The reason I am asking is that I wonder =

why they would seperate or label. I mean what is the thinking or reson=20
behind it?

Kazh wrote:

> *SHOCK*=20
> In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it) and =
then have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office and =
register the birth.=20
> If parents are married, either parent can register the birth, so you =
both don't have to go along.
> If parents are unmarried you both need to go along to register the =
birth IF the father wants his name on the birth certificate.
>=20
> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for =
''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the =
unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter =
offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the =
''legitimate'' book !!

Kazh

June 20th 04, 10:22 PM

I know, we married after our son was born, and they sent a letter to say =
we could re-register him in the ''other'' book......we threw the letter =
away......,=20

As regarding co-habiting laws, they don't seem to have the same laws as =
married couples in respect of paternity leave, tax reductions etc

"zolw" > wrote in message =
news:zULAc.52659$Hg2.14107@attbi_s04...
Gosh that sounds so bad! I mean it is like calling children of unmarried =

parents *******s (on the birth certificate). I had much more faith in=20
the British system. :(

How is it in the UK? Do you have cohabitating laws?

Kazh wrote:

> *SHOCK*=20
> In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it) and =
then have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office and =
register the birth.=20
> If parents are married, either parent can register the birth, so you =
both don't have to go along.
> If parents are unmarried you both need to go along to register the =
birth IF the father wants his name on the birth certificate.
>=20
> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for =
''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the =
unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter =
offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the =
''legitimate'' book !!
>=20
>=20

Kazh

June 20th 04, 10:22 PM

Me too...........

"Vicky Bilaniuk" > wrote in message =
...
Kazh wrote:

> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for =
''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the =
unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter =
offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the =
''legitimate'' book !!

This is the part I find shocking. WOW.

Sophie

June 20th 04, 11:11 PM

>>> If you don't HAVE to name the baby before leaving hospital why is this
registrar pushing for the name NOW ??

Maybe cos it's their job, I dunno.

>>> Yep, my son (now 17) was born before we were married and when we said
our surnames she said ''oh I'll have to fetch the other book'' which has
ILLEGITIMATE written on the front !!...........2 weeks after we got married
we recieved a letter through the post saying we could now register our child
in the ''lrgitimate'' book...........I threw it away........he is registered
what difference does it make as to which book he's in !!!

That's just archaic.

Kazh

June 20th 04, 11:27 PM

"Sophie" > wrote in message =
...
>>> If you don't HAVE to name the baby before leaving hospital why is =
this
registrar pushing for the name NOW ??

Maybe cos it's their job, I dunno.

>>> but how does it make a difference if you leave hospital and then go =
back to register? I don't see a problem.

>>> Yep, my son (now 17) was born before we were married and when we =
said
our surnames she said ''oh I'll have to fetch the other book'' which has
ILLEGITIMATE written on the front !!...........2 weeks after we got =
married
we recieved a letter through the post saying we could now register our =
child
in the ''lrgitimate'' book...........I threw it away........he is =
registered
what difference does it make as to which book he's in !!!

That's just archaic.

>>>I totally agree...

Sue

June 21st 04, 12:21 AM

Richard > wrote in message
> We didn't feel bullied though, after having gotten everything in our birth
plan
> without any resistance. We'd stretched their usual practices pretty far.
> This was a hospital birth, and, in spite of a significant ongoing
liability
> insurance crisis in obstetrics, I was able to catch Micaela.

My husband caught the third baby. He didn't have to stretch hospital policy
to do so, he just did it. ((shrug))
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Jacqui

June 21st 04, 12:22 AM

Kazh wibbled

> *SHOCK*
> In the UK we leave hospital (after 4 hours if you are up to it)
> and then have 6 weeks after the birth to go to the registry office
> and register the birth. If parents are married, either parent can
> register the birth, so you both don't have to go along. If parents
> are unmarried you both need to go along to register the birth IF
> the father wants his name on the birth certificate.
>
> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one
> for ''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate''
> births.........if the unmarried parents then marry at a later
> time, they are sent a letter offering to re-register their
> ''''illegimate'' child in the ''legitimate'' book !!

The rules changed some time back on this one, and on Jan 1st for
unmarried fathers. It's all supposed to be done by computer now,
anyway, there's a special software package the registrar uses, just
filling in the blanks to produce a printed certificate.

There was a CYA legal reason behind the separation of information
like that: before the inheritance laws changed it would make a *big*
difference which book you appeared in. "Legitimising" your child if
you married was a very smart move if you didn't want to
involuntarily disinherit him or her after your death. An older
friend's half-sibling got caught by that, and only family generosity
got him any share in his father's estate. It's not the same now, and
thank goodness, but before the rules changed ignoring that
legitimising offer wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Jac

Ericka Kammerer

June 21st 04, 03:37 AM

Richard wrote:

> You're right; we won't know until we get there. In my state, I think that
> the filing fee is around $40, plus another $2 to have the birth certificate
> "corrected".

Hmmm...IIRC, it was substantially more than that
when my parents looked into it for my sister--in the
hundreds of dollars. I can't remember what state we
were in at the time, though, and it was years ago so
it might have changed since then.

Best wishes,
Ericka

laurie

June 21st 04, 03:37 AM

>Help? Anyone?
>
>Nic H
>EDD 23 Aug 04

I was going to suggest Nichole and then noticed your sig. :) Going to have to
give it some thought!

laurie
mommy to Jessica, 3 years
Christopher, 14 months

Tori M.

June 21st 04, 04:06 AM

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Richard > wrote in message
> > We didn't feel bullied though, after having gotten everything in our
birth
> plan
> > without any resistance. We'd stretched their usual practices pretty
far.
> > This was a hospital birth, and, in spite of a significant ongoing
> liability
> > insurance crisis in obstetrics, I was able to catch Micaela.
>
> My husband caught the third baby. He didn't have to stretch hospital
policy
> to do so, he just did it. ((shrug))
> --
> Sue (mom to three girls)

My midwife has already told Jeff that he could catch the baby when I have
it. She offered in fact we never even thought of it.

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04

Rebecca McGraw

June 21st 04, 01:39 PM

Don't forget it gives you an extra name to call the child when he is in
trouble! ("Rebecca Laura, get in here RIGHT NOW!") :)

We have to name our baby James if it is a boy...in my husband's family
they alternate between James and John for the first name for the first
son. However, we have lots of Jims and Jimmys and Jameses around
already, so little baby James will be called by his middle name. Of
course, we haven't decided that yet, but we still have (hopefully) five
more months to work that out.

I've never known anybody who was troubled by not having a middle name,
but I know lots of people who HATE their middle name! I think it gives
you something to be broody over while in Junior High School. I also knew
people who all of a sudden in their teens chose to go by their middle
name. My brother has always been called by his middle name and uses his
first name at work, and so can tell when someone calls how he knows him
(work friends ask for "James", family friends ask for "Drew").

BTW, for the OP, I like "Simone" for little Michela's middle name. I
think it's a lovely name and would consider it for a girl, but our last
name is Irish (or maybe Irish-American?) and a French first name doesn't
go well.

Happy Baby!
-Rebecca

Tori M. wrote:

> I am not positive but I am pretty sure that the middle name does nothing
> more then sound pretty with the first name;) It also gives you a secound
> name to chose from if you like OR something that your children may name
> their children someday. I never gave any thought to not having a middle
> name with my kids but it may just be a cultural thing.
>
> Tori

Hillary Israeli

June 21st 04, 02:33 PM

In >,
Nikki > wrote:

*This happned to my mum about 20 years ago. Another person with her name went
*and run up a phone bill worth $1 or 2 thousdand dollars. They sued my mum
*for the money. The judge threw it out as they had the wrong person. The
*other perons middle name was Julie where as my mums wasn't. That was the
*only differance. The phone company then realised that they sued the wrong
*person. If my mum didn't have a middle name, she would have had to pay the
*bill. As she wouldn't have been able to prove it wasn't her. (yes they both
*lived at different address but at different times and therefore said she had
*run up the bill then moved house.)

The burden of proof is not on the defendant, it is on the prosecutor. They
would have had to prove it WAS her. No one can ever prove a negative!

I was once involved, as it happens, in a telephone bill dispute that ended
up in court. Cases like that are really really annoying :)

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

P Harris

June 21st 04, 03:39 PM

zolw > wrote in message news:<ARLAc.52650$Hg2.42459@attbi_s04>...
> Well this makes sense, but doesn't a person's social security number
> also help in name mix ups etc.?

Huh. You would think so, wouldn't you :-> (Though not commenting on
the whole 'but SSNs aren't supposed to be used as i.d. numbers... ;-)
)

However, in my case, there is someone running around out there with
the same first and last (maiden) names as me, almost the same age as
me, an *atrocious* credit rating filled with court judgements and
suchlike, and as luck would have it her SSN is almost exactly the same
as mine -- just 2 adjacent digits transposed, somewhere in the middle
of it such that unless you look HARD at the #s it looks just like
mine. Oh, and weirder still, she lived just a few blocks away from me
for several years, making it even tougher to get stores and collection
agencies and credit bureaus to believe I am not her =:-0

This would have been even more difficult for me to straighten out
(which I eventually did, hopefully once and for all but at least now I
am living in a different country!) if her middle name hadn't been
different than mine.

Though, that said, I really think that the ubiquity of middle names in
the US is done more for reasons of custom or "let's decorate the baby
some more" <g>, rather than Important Utilitarian Necessities.

Pat, still trying to find a middle name that my husband and I can
agree on to go with "Margaret" (though alas, my first choices
"Amaryllis" and "Alice", were both soundly vetoed, boo hiss), but
we're pretty well settled I think on the middle name for if it's a
boy,
edd July 21

Bóliath

June 21st 04, 06:50 PM

zolw wrote:
> OK, I am not sure I get the idea of a middle name. What is its function?
> Back home a child is given a Christian name (if any) during baptism &
> this does not go on the birth certificate or any legal documents (unless
> changed of course).
>
> So, how does this work here in the US? What purpose does the middle name
> serve? Thanks in advance for the clarification. I have been too curious
> about this for too long :))

I never got the point of a middle name either until I moved to the US,
lots of people here use their middle initial so it is important. I
suppose there are so many people the incidences of two (or more) people
having the same name are high, the middle initial helps that.

Bóliath

June 21st 04, 06:51 PM

Hillary Israeli

June 21st 04, 06:57 PM

In >,
Richard > wrote:

*: What would have happened if you'd said "we decline to fill that paperwork
*: out today, as we have not yet decided on a name?" You said they told you
*: you couldn't leave the hospital without doing it. Would they have actually
*: made you stay??
*
*How lame of us, as well. Much of my cognitive skill went on holiday when

Hardly. If someone comes rushing in with an air of authority during the
immediate postpartum period, and is insistent that something must be done,
it would be the rare individual to say "I don't think so." Don't you
think? I was just wondering if they'd offered any reasoning behind it :)

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

Tori M.

June 21st 04, 08:01 PM

How about Margaret Ann? That is if you like the A names. Margaret means
child of light and Ann means gracious.

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04
"P Harris" > wrote in message
om...
> zolw > wrote in message
news:<ARLAc.52650$Hg2.42459@attbi_s04>...
> > Well this makes sense, but doesn't a person's social security number
> > also help in name mix ups etc.?
>
> Huh. You would think so, wouldn't you :-> (Though not commenting on
> the whole 'but SSNs aren't supposed to be used as i.d. numbers... ;-)
> )
>
> However, in my case, there is someone running around out there with
> the same first and last (maiden) names as me, almost the same age as
> me, an *atrocious* credit rating filled with court judgements and
> suchlike, and as luck would have it her SSN is almost exactly the same
> as mine -- just 2 adjacent digits transposed, somewhere in the middle
> of it such that unless you look HARD at the #s it looks just like
> mine. Oh, and weirder still, she lived just a few blocks away from me
> for several years, making it even tougher to get stores and collection
> agencies and credit bureaus to believe I am not her =:-0
>
> This would have been even more difficult for me to straighten out
> (which I eventually did, hopefully once and for all but at least now I
> am living in a different country!) if her middle name hadn't been
> different than mine.
>
> Though, that said, I really think that the ubiquity of middle names in
> the US is done more for reasons of custom or "let's decorate the baby
> some more" <g>, rather than Important Utilitarian Necessities.
>
> Pat, still trying to find a middle name that my husband and I can
> agree on to go with "Margaret" (though alas, my first choices
> "Amaryllis" and "Alice", were both soundly vetoed, boo hiss), but
> we're pretty well settled I think on the middle name for if it's a
> boy,
> edd July 21

Tori M.

June 21st 04, 08:06 PM

"Richard" > wrote in message
...
> Tori wrote:
> : My midwife has already told Jeff that he could catch the baby when I
have
> : it. She offered in fact we never even thought of it.
>
> I'm very, *very* glad I was able to catch Micaela. Jeff won't regret it.
>
> Richard
> Micaela's dad
>
> : --
> : Bonnie 3/20/02
> : Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04
> ^^^^^
> 10/17 would have been Micaela's birthday had she come eleven minutes
sooner.
>
Jeff was thrilled that he cut the cord last time but the Dr. Did not do a
good job clamping the cord and he got a bit of a splatter when he cut
through... hehe I have already told him not to wear his favorite shirt this
time;)

Neat about the birthday!

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04

Ericka Kammerer

June 21st 04, 08:46 PM

Richard wrote:

> Ericka Kammerer added:
> : Hmmm...IIRC, it was substantially more than that
> : when my parents looked into it for my sister--in the
> : hundreds of dollars. I can't remember what state we
> : were in at the time, though, and it was years ago so
> : it might have changed since then.
>
> And October 2015 is still a long way off, we may be living in a different
> state, the fees may change, and Micaela may not even care. Just another
> item to file under "Don't forget to take things (and to appreciate her) one
> day at a time."

Absolutely. It has made me curious now, however,
whether the fees have dropped or we're in a cheaper state
now. I might check it out. If it is easier/cheaper now,
she might be interested in doing it, I dunno.

Take care,
Ericka

Daye

June 21st 04, 08:53 PM

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 07:39:54 -0500, Rebecca McGraw
> wrote:

>Don't forget it gives you an extra name to call the child when he is in
>trouble! ("Rebecca Laura, get in here RIGHT NOW!") :)

My mother never called me by my full name, even when I was in deep
trouble. I knew I was in trouble when my name became 2 words. My
real name is Dana. So, when I was in trouble, she would yell out,
"DAY!!! NA!!!!!" and I knew I was in for it.

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan and Leopold
See Jayan and Leo: http://www.aloofhosting.com/jayleo/
Updated 28 Feb 2004

Tori M.

June 21st 04, 10:44 PM

"Richard" > wrote in message
...
> Tori M. > wrote:
> : Richard wrote:
> :
> :> Tori wrote:
> :> : My midwife has already told Jeff that he could catch the baby when I
> :> : have it. She offered in fact we never even thought of it.
> :>
> :> I'm very, *very* glad I was able to catch Micaela. Jeff won't regret
it.
> :>
> :> Richard
> :> Micaela's dad
> :>
> :> : --
> :> : Bonnie 3/20/02
> :> : Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04
> :> ^^^^^
> :> 10/17 would have been Micaela's birthday had she come eleven minutes
> :> sooner.
> :
> : Jeff was thrilled that he cut the cord last time but the Dr. Did not do
a
> : good job clamping the cord and he got a bit of a splatter when he cut
> : through... hehe I have already told him not to wear his favorite shirt
this
> : time;)
>
> I wore a fairly decent shirt when I caught Micaela (I didn't have time to
> change; Lily labored at home to 7cm, we went for a casual check, they
> suggested we not go back home). There are a couple of small spots that
> didn't wash out. I wear them with pride.
>
> : Neat about the birthday!
>
> Tori, you do know Anna or Xavier isn't going to be born anywhere near
> October 17, don't you?
>
> Richard
> Micaela's dad

Well given that Bonnie was born just 3 days before her due date and family
history of premies I would say that odds are that i will either have baby A
or X sometime arround the due date but not neccesaraly on that day. I am
hoping not to have a premie but unless this one has IUGR and they treat it
more agressivly then they did with Bonnie I have no reason to assume this
one would be born premature.
I dont think anyone in my family has gone past the due date given by the DR
and I know that no one in my immediate line has ever been induced for labor.
I am kinda hoping for a semi ontime birth.. within a week of the due date
since I do not want a Halloween Baby;) But I am not holding my breath that
it will be 2 weeks late... Women in my family do not have uterouses that
care to hold a baby past term;) My grandmother on my moms side had 6
children 4 of them where born at 6-7 months and all but one lived to at
least teen years... I was born 4 weeks early and my brother was born the
day before his due date.

anyway I know what you mean. October 17 is just pretty much a good guess at
about when the baby could be born not the gospel truth;) BTW I have joked
with my midwife that if I have not had the baby before my mom flies out I
want to be induced the day before she is to arrive... hehe That is the last
week of October so she can see the baby and take Bonnie Trick or Treating
for her first time.

Tori
--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04

Amy

June 21st 04, 11:20 PM

"Richard" > wrote in message
...
> After I wrote:
> > I decided on the spot that, as part of her 13th birthday celebration,
she
> > could choose her own middle name. I'll do the paper work and accompany
her
> > to court to make the change legal.
>
> Amy replied with:
> : What a neat idea :-) Whatever you call kids, they will no doubt at some
> : stage wish they'd been called something else, so why not give them the
> : option?
> : A similar thing happened with my younger sister, in fact she had no name
at
> : all for some time. It caused them hassles, there was a census at the
time
> : and authorities were insisting she was named, but my parents found there
was
> : no legal requirement, and she could be listed simply as 'baby -----'
> : indefinitely. They were going to let her name herself, but relented in
the
> : end, it got too awkward....and considering some of the names her dolls
had
> : later on, it's probably a good thing they picked it ;-)
>
>
> I doubt it's true, but I once heard a story of a woman named Baby Jones.
Her
> middle name was pronounced "Feh-MAL-eh". The story was that she was never
> given a name. Her birth certificate simply stated, "Baby Female Jones".
>
> Richard
> dad to middle-nameless Micaela

In this mixed up world, I wouldn't be so sure it wasn't true. After hearing
about babies named Apple and Moon Unit, Baby Jones doesn't sound so silly
anymore.

Kazh

June 22nd 04, 12:10 PM

I know, but the thing is they don't tell you....I only noticed because =
it was on the front of the book !!!

"B=F3liath" > wrote in message =
...
Kazh wrote:

> Unfortunately we also have 2 books for registering births...one for =
''legitimate'' births and one for ''illegitimate'' births.........if the =
unmarried parents then marry at a later time, they are sent a letter =
offering to re-register their ''''illegimate'' child in the =
''legitimate'' book !!

No! In this day and age - that is crazy!

Kazh

June 22nd 04, 12:16 PM

How archaic !!=20
If the father signs the birth certificate to say he is the father of the =
child how can they be dis-inherited ?
If you leave a will you can leave your estate to your cat if you want to =
!!

"Jacqui" > wrote in message =
...
Kazh wibbled

The rules changed some time back on this one, and on Jan 1st for=20
unmarried fathers. It's all supposed to be done by computer now,=20
anyway, there's a special software package the registrar uses, just=20
filling in the blanks to produce a printed certificate. =20

There was a CYA legal reason behind the separation of information=20
like that: before the inheritance laws changed it would make a *big*=20
difference which book you appeared in. "Legitimising" your child if=20
you married was a very smart move if you didn't want to=20
involuntarily disinherit him or her after your death. An older=20
friend's half-sibling got caught by that, and only family generosity=20
got him any share in his father's estate. It's not the same now, and=20
thank goodness, but before the rules changed ignoring that=20
legitimising offer wasn't the smartest thing to do.

Jac