6 week imunisation - good or bad

[teapot]

Hi all

I am a regualar at misc.kids.breastfeding having graduated from
misc.kids.pregnancy and I wondered if any of yu know any good sites
that will help us make an informed decision about 6 week vaccinations.

Currently we can find lots of negatives and not many positives. We
are thinking of postponing the vaccinations until he is a bit older,
possibly 4 months to get past the main risk of cot death.

Any advice/opinions would be welcome.

teapot
mum to Toffee 8th June 03

[Bill Fischer]

Try www.immunize.org.

teapot wrote:
> Hi all
>
> I am a regualar at misc.kids.breastfeding having graduated from
> misc.kids.pregnancy and I wondered if any of yu know any good sites
> that will help us make an informed decision about 6 week vaccinations.
>
> Currently we can find lots of negatives and not many positives. We
> are thinking of postponing the vaccinations until he is a bit older,
> possibly 4 months to get past the main risk of cot death.
>
> Any advice/opinions would be welcome.
>
> teapot
> mum to Toffee 8th June 03

[Mark Probert]

teapot wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I am a regualar at misc.kids.breastfeding having graduated from
> misc.kids.pregnancy and I wondered if any of yu know any good sites
> that will help us make an informed decision about 6 week vaccinations.
>
> Currently we can find lots of negatives and not many positives. We
> are thinking of postponing the vaccinations until he is a bit older,
> possibly 4 months to get past the main risk of cot death.
>
> Any advice/opinions would be welcome.

Try the US CDC website and see what they have to say.

Also check out what happens if you fail to vacciante.

[PF Riley]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 09:08:12 -0700, Bill Fischer
> wrote:

>Try www.immunize.org.
>
>teapot wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> I am a regualar at misc.kids.breastfeding having graduated from
>> misc.kids.pregnancy and I wondered if any of yu know any good sites
>> that will help us make an informed decision about 6 week vaccinations.
>>
>> Currently we can find lots of negatives and not many positives.

The reason you don't find many "positives" is because not many people
complain anymore about their children dying of pertussis, diphtheria,
Haemophilus meningitis, etc. Instead, all they do is try to blame
anything and everything that can go wrong and have gone wrong with
children since the beginning of time on vaccinations. We have the
luxury now, thanks to vaccines, of no longer expecting that at least
some of our children will die of infectious diseases, so, as a victim
of their own success, vaccines have become easy targets for groundless
accusations.

>> We
>> are thinking of postponing the vaccinations until he is a bit older,
>> possibly 4 months to get past the main risk of cot death.

Vaccinations have absolutely nothing to do with SIDS. However,
pertussis is more and more deadly the younger an infant is. You are
running a higher risk of your child dying of pertussis before the age
of 4 months by not immunizing him than you are of somehow causing SIDS
before 4 months by immunizing him.

PF

[Mary Gordon]

I have three kids, and we've had confirmed cases of whooping cough in
the neighbourhoods in recent years. Not too big a deal (although
certainly unpleasant) for someone in good shape, but really dangerous
for babies, old people, and those with other health problems.

Since its out there, you can either live in a cave or have your baby
immunized.

Mary G.

[sarah's mom]

(Mary Gordon) wrote in message >...
> I have three kids, and we've had confirmed cases of whooping cough in
> the neighbourhoods in recent years. Not too big a deal (although
> certainly unpleasant) for someone in good shape, but really dangerous
> for babies, old people, and those with other health problems.
>
> Since its out there, you can either live in a cave or have your baby
> immunized.
>
> Mary G.

I wouldn't put her back in diapers just yet, maybe she just needs a
little more attention because of the younger children.

[CBI]

"Wendy Marsden" > wrote in message
...
> PF Riley > wrote:
>
> > The reason you don't find many "positives" is because not many people
> > complain anymore about their children dying of pertussis, diphtheria,
> > Haemophilus meningitis, etc.
>
> They complain about it around here. An unvaccinated child passed along a
> disease (I think it was rubella) to a pregnant woman at a school play and
> she lost the baby. Yup, someone ELSE's kid got killed because those
> parents chose not to vaccinate. Nice.

So you see the flaw in the arguments about it being your own personal choice
and no else's business.

--
CBI, MD

[Wendy Marsden]

CBI > wrote:

> And besides - waiting until 4 months will not get you past the risk of SIDS.

And there-in lies the crux: there are risks to every decision. People who
studied this issue decided it was too important - too great a benefit to
pass up - so required vaccination for children in our society. Not
because they didn't value children or didn't mind endangering them, but
because they weighed the cumulative risks to those same children against
the risks of the vaccines and decided the vaccines were the best bet.

I'm not one that bows down to mass-mentality thinking all that often, but
I do believe that people who honestly know more about a subject can be
trusted to make decisions in that arena. I don't tend to substitute my
judgment for my pediatricians lightly where medical issues are concerned.

My advice is to ask your pediatrician. If you don't trust her answer then
find another pediatrician.

Wendy

[Mark Probert]

Wendy Marsden wrote:

> PF Riley > wrote:
>
>
>>While I agree with you that the benefit of vaccination outweighs the
>>risk, which society are you talking about that "requires" such?
>
>
> I just had a conversation with my child's preschool he's starting in the
> Fall. A full vaccination record is the default with any other option not
> mentioned as even a possibility.
>
> I'm holding off on the chicken pox vaccine (with my ped's approval) and
> despair of him ever catching it normally if the school gets fussy about
> needing the vaccine to admit him. I'm not sure what religious grounds I
> have when he's had all his other vaccinations.

Why woul dyou have any reservations about protecting him from such a
dangerous disease?

[Roger Schlafly]

"Wendy Marsden" > wrote
> I have evaluated the risks versus the rewards of my kid getting chicken
> pox and I feel that the risk of complications from chicken pox during
> childhood is less than the risk of complications from loss of immunity in
> him as an adult. ...

That should be your right. The vaccination requirements make it
difficult for parents like you.

If your state and school accept religious or philosophical exemptions,
then you could claim an exemption to vaccines generally, and not
tell the school that your kid has actually had most of the vaccines.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Wendy Marsden > wrote:

>PF Riley > wrote:
>
>> While I agree with you that the benefit of vaccination outweighs the
>> risk, which society are you talking about that "requires" such?
>
>I just had a conversation with my child's preschool he's starting in the
>Fall. A full vaccination record is the default with any other option not
>mentioned as even a possibility.
>
>I'm holding off on the chicken pox vaccine (with my ped's approval) and
>despair of him ever catching it normally if the school gets fussy about
>needing the vaccine to admit him. I'm not sure what religious grounds I
>have when he's had all his other vaccinations.

Well, how lucky do you feel? If an unidentified viral infection
was killing 100 or so kids a year and putting thousands in the
hospital ... how would you feel about getting the vaccine? Just
because it's got a familiar name doesn't mean it's not capable of
causing harm.

http://www.kidsource.com/kidsource/content2/news2/chicken.pox.html

"One of the challenges facing public health professionals is to
educate the public and health-care providers that chickenpox is
not an entirely benign disease. There are approximately 100
deaths and 9,300 hospitalizations due to complications of
chickenpox each year. The majority of these deaths and
complications occur in previously healthy individuals, and should
be preventable by vaccination,"Dr. Jane Seward, CDC
epidemiologist.

Chickenpox can be complicated by a variety of serious conditions
including skin infections which can progress to blood borne
infections, infections of the brain which may result in
disability, and serious pneumonia. In rare incidences, these
complications can progress to death.

A chickenpox outbreak at a daycare center in Atlanta provided CDC
epidemiologists an opportunity to study the effectiveness of the
vaccine. "Among children who had not been vaccinated prior to the
outbreak, 88 percent of the children contracted chickenpox," said
Dr. Seward. "Among those who had been vaccinated, only 14 percent
developed chickenpox and in all cases the disease was mild."

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

[Roger Schlafly]

"Tsu Dho Nimh" > wrote
> >I'm holding off on the chicken pox vaccine (with my ped's approval) and
> Well, how lucky do you feel? ...

She has already evaluated the tradeoffs. You as might as well be
lecturing her on the dangers of preschool. At preschool, the kid
can have accidents, get diseases, learn bad habits, be influenced
by trouble-maker kids, etc. All in all, it is much more dangerous
than chickenpox. Apparently she has decided that the advantages
of preschool make it worthwhile.

[Wendy Marsden]

Tsu Dho Nimh > wrote:

> "One of the challenges facing public health professionals is to
> educate the public and health-care providers that chickenpox is
> not an entirely benign disease. There are approximately 100
> deaths and 9,300 hospitalizations due to complications of
> chickenpox each year. The majority of these deaths and
> complications occur in previously healthy individuals, and should
> be preventable by vaccination,"Dr. Jane Seward, CDC
> epidemiologist.

I totally agree that chickenpox is a serious hazard - in people who
contract it as adults.

> Chickenpox can be complicated by a variety of serious conditions
> including skin infections which can progress to blood borne
> infections, infections of the brain which may result in
> disability, and serious pneumonia. In rare incidences, these
> complications can progress to death.

Sounds like typical twenty-something male behavior, ignoring skin
infections, getting sick unto death before they seek help... I hope to
prevent that scenario by having my son get chickenpox when I'm around to
monitor him, not when his vaccine wears off while he's away at college.

Wendy

[CBI]

"Wendy Marsden" > wrote in message
...
> Tsu Dho Nimh > wrote:
>
> > Chickenpox can be complicated by a variety of serious conditions
> > including skin infections which can progress to blood borne
> > infections, infections of the brain which may result in
> > disability, and serious pneumonia. In rare incidences, these
> > complications can progress to death.
>
> Sounds like typical twenty-something male behavior, ignoring skin
> infections, getting sick unto death before they seek help... I hope to
> prevent that scenario by having my son get chickenpox when I'm around to
> monitor him, not when his vaccine wears off while he's away at college.

The skin infections are not usually what kills you. Mostly it is the viral
pneumonia. There is no effective treatment for it. No amount of monitoring
will avoid it.

Then there is the cerebritis.

--
CBI, MD

[Wendy Marsden]

CBI > wrote:

> The skin infections are not usually what kills you. Mostly it is the viral
> pneumonia. There is no effective treatment for it. No amount of monitoring
> will avoid it.

But you can make it worse by ignoring it and not helping yourself to get
well, right? Machoing through it?

> Then there is the cerebritis.

Got me - a brain infection? I've never heard of that complication.

So, what is *your* opinion on vaccination against chicken pox in children
elementary-school aged and younger? Are you thrilled to have the scourge
gone? Are you worried about the potential for diminished immunity in
twenty years? Do you have any personal experience with chicken pox gone
terribly wrong in children? Were you happy when they made it a state law
or did you feel like your hands were unfairly tied on the subject?

Wendy

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Wendy Marsden > wrote:

>Tsu Dho Nimh > wrote:
>> Chickenpox can be complicated by a variety of serious conditions
>> including skin infections which can progress to blood borne
>> infections, infections of the brain which may result in
>> disability, and serious pneumonia. In rare incidences, these
>> complications can progress to death.
>
>Sounds like typical twenty-something male behavior, ignoring skin
>infections, getting sick unto death before they seek help... I hope to
>prevent that scenario by having my son get chickenpox when I'm around to
>monitor him, not when his vaccine wears off while he's away at college.

The last death from chickenpox in this state was a child less
than 2 years old. He got a hemolytic strep infection in the
pustules and it went to septicemia in hours, death in a day.

Source of the infection? His parents throats. The bacteria is a
common throat inhabitant, and the pustules were an open would to
invade.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

[PF Riley]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 18:21:12 GMT, Wendy Marsden
> wrote:
>
>Because my experience with chicken pox is that it is an inconvenient but
>not terrible childhood disease that is much worse if you get it as an
>adult, and I'm worried that the vaccine will wear off, causing the adult
>to get a much worse case than he would have as a child.

It is likely that breakthrough infections in vaccinated adults will be
mild, as they are in children.

>By the way, I had to have a rubella booster shot as an adult - the vaccine
>had worn off.

It's important to know that the determination that your immunity from
the vaccine had waned was probably based on your serum antibody level,
which is a poor surrogate marker for actual immunity. Rechallenge you
with actual rubella virus and you may have a proper, robust anamnestic
protective immune response despite previously undetectable antibody
levels.

>I also feel confident that I could adequately remove him from the company
>of adults who are not immune so that I would be endangering no-one else.

I would not be so confident, as chickenpox is contagious for a few
days before the first lesions appear, and frequently with chickenpox
the parents were not aware of a recent exposure.

PF

[Wendy Marsden]

PF Riley > wrote:
>>By the way, I had to have a rubella booster shot as an adult - the vaccine
>>had worn off.

> It's important to know that the determination that your immunity from
> the vaccine had waned was probably based on your serum antibody level,
> which is a poor surrogate marker for actual immunity.

You're right, but it was required by law in my state when I
married. (Unmarried couples can skip the blood test and subsequent
re-innoculation.) I even had to sign a statement saying I would use birth
control for the next six months. I couldn't BELIEVE it!

>>I also feel confident that I could adequately remove him from the company
>>of adults who are not immune so that I would be endangering no-one else.

> I would not be so confident, as chickenpox is contagious for a few
> days before the first lesions appear, and frequently with chickenpox
> the parents were not aware of a recent exposure.

Good point. So where do you stand on vaccinating four year olds for
chickenpox?

Wendy

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

Wendy Marsden > wrote:


>I also feel confident that I could adequately remove him from the company
>of adults who are not immune so that I would be endangering no-one else.

Oh really? That means keeping the child isolated until he's old
enough to leave home.

You do realize that most childhood viral infections are
contagious BEFORE the symptoms are bad enough that the infected
one appear ill even to the most watchful parents. With
chickenpox, the spots appear only AFTER the child has been
shedding extremely infectious virus particles in saliva and nasal
secretions for a few days. They might appear to have "the
sniffles", but that's aboiut the extent of the symptoms.


Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

[CBI]

"Wendy Marsden" > wrote in message
...
> CBI > wrote:
>
> > The skin infections are not usually what kills you. Mostly it is the
viral
> > pneumonia. There is no effective treatment for it. No amount of
monitoring
> > will avoid it.
>
> But you can make it worse by ignoring it and not helping yourself to get
> well, right? Machoing through it?

Absolutely.


>
> > Then there is the cerebritis.
>
> Got me - a brain infection? I've never heard of that complication.

Yes.


> So, what is *your* opinion on vaccination against chicken pox in children
> elementary-school aged and younger?

Mixed - at this point I think any concerns about poor immunity are pretty
much moot since the natural disease is becomming rare in childhood.
Over-all, I think things favor giving to the kids - mine have both had it
and I recommend it to my patients, although not with quite as much
enthusiasm as the others.


> Are you thrilled to have the scourge
> gone?

Thrilled wouldn't quite be the word as it was not that much of a scourge -
but yes, the less of it I see the better.



> Are you worried about the potential for diminished immunity in
> twenty years?

Yes - or 80 years.

> Do you have any personal experience with chicken pox gone
> terribly wrong in children?

"Terribly" - like death? No.

I have seen some pretty sick kids require hospitalization. That was actually
not all that uncommon.

> Were you happy when they made it a state law
> or did you feel like your hands were unfairly tied on the subject?

I still don't feel my hands are unfairly tied. Like I said - I do think the
markedly diminished rates of natural infection are making the "wait and see
if he gets it" approach less and less likely to be fruitful and more likely
to be harmful.

I also think that as data comes in the fears are becoming less tenable.

--
CBI, MD

[abacus]

"CBI" > wrote in message >...

> > So, what is *your* opinion on vaccination against chicken pox in children
> > elementary-school aged and younger?
>
> Mixed - at this point I think any concerns about poor immunity are pretty
> much moot since the natural disease is becomming rare in childhood.
> Over-all, I think things favor giving to the kids - mine have both had it
> and I recommend it to my patients, although not with quite as much
> enthusiasm as the others.

SNIP

> I still don't feel my hands are unfairly tied. Like I said - I do think the
> markedly diminished rates of natural infection are making the "wait and see
> if he gets it" approach less and less likely to be fruitful and more likely
> to be harmful.

I agree the approach of "wait and see if the child gets it" is less
likely to be fruitful - I finally had my oldest immunized at age 11 or
12 because she never did come down with chicken pox naturally despite
several exposures. Since I didn't want her getting the disease after
puberty, we went ahead and vaccinated at that point. But I don't know
why it would be more harmful than vaccinating at an earlier age. I'll
probably do the same with my youngest and hold off vaccinating until
close to puberty.

[Wendy Marsden]

abacus > wrote:
> I agree the approach of "wait and see if the child gets it" is less
> likely to be fruitful - I finally had my oldest immunized at age 11 or
> 12 because she never did come down with chicken pox naturally despite
> several exposures. Since I didn't want her getting the disease after
> puberty, we went ahead and vaccinated at that point. But I don't know
> why it would be more harmful than vaccinating at an earlier age. I'll
> probably do the same with my youngest and hold off vaccinating until
> close to puberty.

That was my plan when I researched this decision four years ago. He still
hasn't caught it (and I don't recall all the information I used to make my
decision) but I do recall that I want him to have it before junior high.

Wendy