Good parenting

[PF Riley]

I thought of JG today as I sat at McDonald's with my daughter and
watched a family nearby. There were three young children with their
grandmother (probably about 160 lbs.) and mother (at least 300 lbs.,
conservative estimate -- her butt was twice as wide as her chair, she
had a suprapubic fat mass that bifurcates as it hangs down in front of
her crotch, and she walked with the waddle typical of people who can't
adduct their thighs fully due to their girth). The youngest boy was
clearly full. He was sitting and staring at his small pile of
remaining French fries. As the older sister was off at the front
counter, the grandmother told the boy, "Finish your French fries if
you want ice cream." The girl returned with a handful of ice cream
cones for everyone and repeated their "rule" to him. The boy slowly
stuffed the remaining fries in his mouth and then over the next 20
minutes or so managed to eat his entire ice cream cone too.

What wonderful dietary advice from grandma! Teach the boy not only to
ignore is innate sense of satiety, but to override it in order to
consume more carbohydrates deep fried in fat (oh, excuse me...
McDonald's is at least frying them in vegetable oil instead of beef
tallow now) so that he may receive, as a "reward" for overeating, MORE
food -- a sugary, fatty treat! The grandmother seemed quite confident
in her ability to dispense advice on eating habits. She probably
thinks of French fries as a "vegetable," no doubt, so she's helping
him be healthy, right? It was amazing that watching this small
interaction made it immediately apparent why the mother was so
enormous.

PF

[Wendy Marsden]

PF Riley > wrote:
> It was amazing that watching this small
> interaction made it immediately apparent why the mother was so
> enormous.

In another newsgroup I was participating in a thread about how awful it is
that parents let their kids get obese.

I mentioned how I didn't allow my children to eat Frosted Flakes at a
family reunion week. I fed them reasonable portions of low-glycemic foods
(that would not cause a sugar crash at 10 am while out doing
activities.) I was treated like some sort of twig-eating
nature freak for serving them oatmeal and putting peanut butter (instead
of jam) on their english muffins and not allowing donuts. My in-laws
were actually ****ed at me for being so mean to my kids. Of course, these
are the same in-laws that bought all the sugary cereals and pastries. I
brought the oatmeal and peanut butter myself.

The weird thing is, other posters in the thread jumped on me for causing
my kids potential complexes because they were denied sugary cereals. In
their mind, it was BAD PARENTING to dictate menus to them. (Mind you, at
this same family reunion the kids had soda and cake every day - I just
limited how much sugar they got to something less than infinite amounts.)

I think it is interesting that people with slim, active kids are suspected
of abusing the children to get them that way.

On a possibly related note, have you observed the new fashion of wearing
very low-cut pants and having your belly fat hang out over them with
cropped shirts? I've seen this look a half-dozen times now amongst
teenagers - it's so gross that you can't manage NOT to look. I think it
is some sort of backlash against health-freaks who think belly fat isn't
attractive. (Probably the same squares who think smoking is bad.)

So, there you go. Being slim is a sign of pathology.

Wendy

[Roger Schlafly]

"Wendy Marsden" > wrote in
> I mentioned how I didn't allow my children to eat Frosted Flakes at a
> family reunion week. ...

What do you think of parents who give candy directly to other
kids?

It seems like about once a week or so that my kids goto a birthday
party or some other event, and come home with a bag of candy.
The only time anyone asks my opinion is when my 3-year-old
comes to me with a Snickers bar or a Tootsie Roll and asks me
if it has peanuts in it. (She has an allergy.) I am not particularly
strict about it, but she'd be eating chocolate candy every day if
I let her eat all the candy she gets from other parents. What are
these parents thinking? Do they feed their own kids this much
candy? Am I rude if I refuse the candy?

[PF Riley]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 02:40:10 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:
>
>It seems like about once a week or so that my kids goto a birthday
>party or some other event, and come home with a bag of candy.
>The only time anyone asks my opinion is when my 3-year-old
>comes to me with a Snickers bar or a Tootsie Roll and asks me
>if it has peanuts in it. (She has an allergy.)

Ignoring all the other issues you raise, I'd like to know if you
really do send your three-year-old child with peanut allergy to events
where she is given food without your supervision and expect her to
maintain surveillance herself for peanuts, given that peanut allergy
is the leading cause of food allergy deaths in the U.S. and is usually
lifelong.

You have already unabashedly revealed your general lack of any sense
and your childishly self-destructive oppositional attitude (i.e.,
"Because I was told to do it, I won't.") when it comes to supine
sleeping for infants, bicycle helmets, firearm safety, and seatbelts,
yet you continue to amaze me. It seems that my opinion of you and your
mental abilities becomes lower and lower every time I read one of your
posts.

This scenario reminds me of the two-year-old child with extensive
second-degree burns on his hand whose mother told me that, as she
cooked with him watching while standing on a chair next to the stove,
she had told him not to touch the burners. I can only imagine
Schlafly's three-year-old daughter in the ER getting fluid boluses and
subcutaneous epinephrine as her blood pressure drops, with Roger
standing off to the side saying, "I TOLD her to read the label on the
cereal box!"

Ah, I guess this all fits with the theme of this thread. (Hint: the
"Subject" is full sarcasm.)

PF

[JG]

"PF Riley" > wrote in message
...

> I thought of JG today as I sat at McDonald's with my daughter and
> watched a family nearby.

Gee, thanks! It's nice to be thought of... <g>

There were three young children with their
> grandmother (probably about 160 lbs.) and mother (at least 300 lbs.,
> conservative estimate -- her butt was twice as wide as her chair, she
> had a suprapubic fat mass that bifurcates as it hangs down in front of
> her crotch, and she walked with the waddle typical of people who can't
> adduct their thighs fully due to their girth).

And you didn't lose your appetite?

The youngest boy was
> clearly full. He was sitting and staring at his small pile of
> remaining French fries. As the older sister was off at the front
> counter, the grandmother told the boy, "Finish your French fries if
> you want ice cream." The girl returned with a handful of ice cream
> cones for everyone and repeated their "rule" to him. The boy slowly
> stuffed the remaining fries in his mouth and then over the next 20
> minutes or so managed to eat his entire ice cream cone too.

As you sat engrossed (or merely grossed out), huh? (Hope your daughter
wasn't trying to get your attention!)

> What wonderful dietary advice from grandma! Teach the boy not only to
> ignore is innate sense of satiety, but to override it in order to
> consume more carbohydrates deep fried in fat (oh, excuse me...
> McDonald's is at least frying them in vegetable oil instead of beef
> tallow now) so that he may receive, as a "reward" for overeating, MORE
> food -- a sugary, fatty treat! The grandmother seemed quite confident
> in her ability to dispense advice on eating habits. She probably
> thinks of French fries as a "vegetable," no doubt, so she's helping
> him be healthy, right? It was amazing that watching this small
> interaction made it immediately apparent why the mother was so
> enormous.

I'd hardly consider the grandmother's words "advice." (An *order*
perhaps.)

Read what I wrote in response to Elizabeth, PF. The grandmother
undoubtedly falls into one of three categories (I think it's safe to
assume that virtually *everyone* is aware of the correlation between
overeating and excess weight--the "information."): Either (1) She
hasn't pondered the information (and consequently hasn't taken any
action), in which case she's an "idiot"; (2) She *has* pondered the
information, and come up with a rational (to *her*; people, mind you,
have a right to make what others would consider foolish choices) reason
for encouraging (coercing) the boy to overeat (at least on this
occasion); or (3) She's not capable--she doesn't have the mental
acumen--to ponder the overeating-->overweight information, and thus is a
candidate for advising.

So tell us, PF (I'm dyin' to know!): What did you do? Did you say
anything to her/her family (daughter)? Did you accost her with your
expert advice? <g>

[Roger Schlafly]

"JG" > wrote
> assume that virtually *everyone* is aware of the correlation between
> overeating and excess weight--the "information."): Either (1) She

Yes, I am sure she understands that she got fat from overeating.

[Jeff Utz]

"PF Riley" > wrote in message
...
(...)

>It was amazing that watching this small
> interaction made it immediately apparent why the mother was so
> enormous.

The immediate question that comes to mind is why didn't the mother do her
bit as a parent and say something like: you don't have to eat your fries or
the ice cream if you don't want it? The mother is obese. One would think she
should know better.

The mother is clearly suffering from obesity. I agree it is not her fault
that she grew up fat. However, she has the ability to lose weight. And she
is one of the people who will suffer if she doesn't.

Jeff

> PF

[Jeff Utz]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
et...
> "Wendy Marsden" > wrote in
> > I mentioned how I didn't allow my children to eat Frosted Flakes at a
> > family reunion week. ...
>
> What do you think of parents who give candy directly to other
> kids?

Perhaps you could mention politely to the other parents that your don't want
your child to get candy.

> It seems like about once a week or so that my kids goto a birthday
> party or some other event, and come home with a bag of candy.
> The only time anyone asks my opinion is when my 3-year-old
> comes to me with a Snickers bar or a Tootsie Roll and asks me
> if it has peanuts in it. (She has an allergy.) I am not particularly
> strict about it, but she'd be eating chocolate candy every day if
> I let her eat all the candy she gets from other parents. What are
> these parents thinking? Do they feed their own kids this much
> candy? Am I rude if I refuse the candy?

No, if the other parents know that you don't want your kids getting candy
and you are polite about it, no, I would say that they are rude for offering
it.

All the best,

Jeff

[Jeff Utz]

"JG" > wrote in message
.. .
> "PF Riley" > wrote in message

(...)


> So tell us, PF (I'm dyin' to know!): What did you do? Did you say
> anything to her/her family (daughter)? Did you accost her with your
> expert advice? <g>

My experience is that outside of the office, such advice isn't welcome. Most
people who are way too fat (e.g., they waddle) know this. And the
grandmother would not welcome this advice, either.

Jeff

[PF Riley]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 07:22:39 GMT, "JG" > wrote:
>
>So tell us, PF (I'm dyin' to know!): What did you do? Did you say
>anything to her/her family (daughter)? Did you accost her with your
>expert advice? <g>

No, I did not say anything because I was there as a father and
McDonald's patron, not a pediatrician. I don't go nosing around other
people's business when outside the office because, as I have said
before, I operate under the supposition that people come to my office
because they want my advice. I wouldn't assume the same at McDonald's.

PF

[PF Riley]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 09:54:05 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:

>"JG" > wrote
>> assume that virtually *everyone* is aware of the correlation between
>> overeating and excess weight--the "information."): Either (1) She
>
>Yes, I am sure she understands that she got fat from overeating.

No, I would not be so sure. Many overweight people insist that they
have a "gland" problem or blame other factors for it, attributing
their appetite to their size, not vice versa.

PF

[Wendy Marsden]

PF Riley > wrote:
>>
>>Yes, I am sure she understands that she got fat from overeating.

> No, I would not be so sure. Many overweight people insist that they
> have a "gland" problem or blame other factors for it, attributing
> their appetite to their size, not vice versa.

Agreed. One of the hallmarks of a new dieter in a group I'm in is their
opening statement, "My metabolism doesn't work as well as other people's -
it's genetics, not my fault." The term we use (quite liberally) is "Fat
**** in Denial", FFID.

Wendy

[Wendy Marsden]

Roger Schlafly > wrote:

> She is pretty good about checking for peanuts. Occasionally someone
> will try to feed her a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and she knows
> not to eat that. (Unless it is made with soy butter instead of peanut
> butter.)

I agree with PF: this is patently ridiculous. A peanut allergy is a
challenging situation for ADULTS when they aren't preparing their own
food. I was at the most elegent restaurant I've ever been at last week
with someone with a nut allergy. She asked TWICE if there were nuts in
her meal. They said no. She started reacting to the green beans and they
admitted they had slivered almonds on top of the pan (none of which were
in her plate - maybe they picked them off for her.)

Later, at that same meal, she ordered a chocolate mousse (maybe she was
hungry from not being able to eat the beans.) She asked AGAIN to make
sure there were no nuts in it. They assured her there weren't. She took
a bite and started to swell up. (I saw this whole thing.) She started
gasping for some Benedryl, preferring not to use her Epipen if
possible. The waiter appeared uninterested in the whole thing - it was as
if they had never even HEARD of a nut allergy.

There were hazelnut pieces mixed in the chocolate. (I had the same thing
- it was good - but she got served before me so I couldn't warn her.)

My SIL lived, but no thanks to any adult near her. A three year old would
be dead from that meal. It was on a lovely island a 30 minute ferry ride
from a hospital.

I'll be sad when your kid dies young, but I believe in the whole Darwin
thing so it's just nature's course.

Wendy

[Roger Schlafly]

"Wendy Marsden" > wrote
> I agree with PF: this is patently ridiculous. A peanut allergy is a
> challenging situation for ADULTS when they aren't preparing their own
> food. I was at the most elegent restaurant I've ever been at last week
> with someone with a nut allergy. She asked TWICE if there were nuts in

So the adult got the same wrong answer that a child would have gotten.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

(PF Riley) wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:07:18 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:
>
>>"PF Riley" > wrote
>>> Ignoring all the other issues you raise, I'd like to know if you
>>> really do send your three-year-old child with peanut allergy to events
>>> where she is given food without your supervision and expect her to
>>> maintain surveillance herself for peanuts, given that peanut allergy
>>
>>She is pretty good about checking for peanuts. Occasionally someone
>>will try to feed her a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and she knows
>>not to eat that. (Unless it is made with soy butter instead of peanut
>>butter.)

>I'm curious for input from the group, please. Am I out of line here,
>or is anyone else as appalled but then again not surprised that Roger
>has yet again outdone himself in the stupidity department?

Not at all surprised ... either he's lying to make a good story
or his kid has been damned lucky.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

[Wendy Marsden]

Roger Schlafly > wrote:
> "Wendy Marsden" > wrote
>> I agree with PF: this is patently ridiculous. A peanut allergy is a
>> challenging situation for ADULTS when they aren't preparing their own
>> food. I was at the most elegent restaurant I've ever been at last week
>> with someone with a nut allergy. She asked TWICE if there were nuts in

> So the adult got the same wrong answer that a child would have gotten.

Yes. But the adult used her power as an adult to question their word and
believe her senses and stoppped eating the suspected problem food (and she
picked the right food - the green beans - to suspect.)

Believing yourself when adults say something different is not a skill a
three year old has.

Being *continuously* paranoid about any morsal being offered to you is not
a skill children have.

It's great if she can help you with this task of keeping her away from
peanuts, but she just can't do it by herself.

I've even heard of parents who resent picky eaters LYING to children
about peanuts thinking the kid just doesn't LIKE them and they will like
them if they try them.

My nephew (the child of my SIL with the nut allergy) is also allergic to
peanuts. He wears a medic allert bracelet and carries an epipen and his
mother is a tireless advocate on his behalf. But guess what happened last
Thanksgiving. It was being hosted by my in-laws, the child's next-door
neighbor grandparents, and my FIL had the bright idea of cooking with a
new gadget, one of those deep-fried turkey things. Guess what - he used
peanut oil. The kid couldn't even come near the house, much less eat
turkey. It was just thoughtlessness. It happens.

Wendy

[Mark Probert]

PF Riley wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:07:18 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"PF Riley" > wrote
>>
>>>Ignoring all the other issues you raise, I'd like to know if you
>>>really do send your three-year-old child with peanut allergy to events
>>>where she is given food without your supervision and expect her to
>>>maintain surveillance herself for peanuts, given that peanut allergy
>>
>>She is pretty good about checking for peanuts. Occasionally someone
>>will try to feed her a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and she knows
>>not to eat that. (Unless it is made with soy butter instead of peanut
>>butter.)
>
>
> You have confirmed my suspicious that you really are as stupid as I
> thought. God help your child if she is only three yet you expect her
> to watch her own diet to save her life.
>
> As a pediatric endocrinologist once said to the idiot mother of a
> 10-year-old child, who said she expects him to manage his own blood
> sugar monitoring and insulin injections so that he can learn "some
> responsibility," as he lay there in his ICU bed at the brink of
> cerebral edema and death from diabetic ketoacidosis, "If you want to
> teach him responsibility, get him a goldfish. You are his mother,
> however, and YOU are responsible for making sure he gets his insulin,
> or next time he might die."
>
> I'm curious for input from the group, please. Am I out of line here,
> or is anyone else as appalled but then again not surprised that Roger
> has yet again outdone himself in the stupidity department?
>
>
>>Just telling a kid not to touch the burners is useless.
>
>
> But telling a peanut-allergic kid not to eat peanuts isn't?
>
>
>>I would demonstrate
>>that heat is bad, in a controlled way. She doesn't touch the burners
>>once she understands what will happen.
>
>
> No, idiot. It would make her even more curious about it.
>
> It sounds like you are a wimpy, immature parent who is afraid to apply
> any discipline to his children but rationalizes his inaction with the
> false notion that he is teaching them "independence" or
> "responsibility." Loser.


I think you are right on the mark.

Note Medtronic recently was approved for a self regulating insulin pump.

[Mark Probert]

Wendy Marsden wrote:

> Roger Schlafly > wrote:
>
>>"Wendy Marsden" > wrote
>>
>>>I agree with PF: this is patently ridiculous. A peanut allergy is a
>>>challenging situation for ADULTS when they aren't preparing their own
>>>food. I was at the most elegent restaurant I've ever been at last week
>>>with someone with a nut allergy. She asked TWICE if there were nuts in
>
>
>>So the adult got the same wrong answer that a child would have gotten.
>
>
> Yes. But the adult used her power as an adult to question their word and
> believe her senses and stoppped eating the suspected problem food (and she
> picked the right food - the green beans - to suspect.)
>
> Believing yourself when adults say something different is not a skill a
> three year old has.
>
> Being *continuously* paranoid about any morsal being offered to you is not
> a skill children have.

Excellent point. A nighobr's 16 year old has a nut allergy and is just
now trusting himself to monitor food outside.

> It's great if she can help you with this task of keeping her away from
> peanuts, but she just can't do it by herself.
>
> I've even heard of parents who resent picky eaters LYING to children
> about peanuts thinking the kid just doesn't LIKE them and they will like
> them if they try them.
>
> My nephew (the child of my SIL with the nut allergy) is also allergic to
> peanuts. He wears a medic allert bracelet and carries an epipen and his
> mother is a tireless advocate on his behalf. But guess what happened last
> Thanksgiving. It was being hosted by my in-laws, the child's next-door
> neighbor grandparents, and my FIL had the bright idea of cooking with a
> new gadget, one of those deep-fried turkey things.

Many of them are inherently daqngerous, and have a tendency to tip over.
We roast our bird over an open fire in a pit.

Guess what - he used
> peanut oil. The kid couldn't even come near the house, much less eat
> turkey. It was just thoughtlessness. It happens.

[Roger Schlafly]

"Wendy Marsden" > wrote
> I've even heard of parents who resent picky eaters LYING to children
> about peanuts thinking the kid just doesn't LIKE them and they will like
> them if they try them.

No doubt some parents also do the reverse -- tell the kid that some
dessert has peanuts in it just to deter the kid from wanting the dessert.

I just tell the kid the truth. Even a 3-year-old can understand it.

[CBI]

"PF Riley" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm curious for input from the group, please. Am I out of line here,
> or is anyone else as appalled but then again not surprised that Roger
> has yet again outdone himself in the stupidity department?
>

He is proving tha ddage that practice makes perfect.

I think he is nearly the perfect fool.


> It sounds like you are a wimpy, immature parent who is afraid to apply
> any discipline to his children but rationalizes his inaction with the
> false notion that he is teaching them "independence" or
> "responsibility." Loser.

Insecurity explains much of his behavior.

--
CBI, MD

[PF Riley]

On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 23:35:31 -0400, "CBI" >
wrote:
>
>"PF Riley" > wrote in message
...
>
>> It sounds like you are a wimpy, immature parent who is afraid to apply
>> any discipline to his children but rationalizes his inaction with the
>> false notion that he is teaching them "independence" or
>> "responsibility." Loser.
>
>Insecurity explains much of his behavior.

Hmm... I wonder why. Imagine Roger meeting Freud for a session of
psychoanalysis.

"Tell me about your mother..."

PF

[Elizabeth Reid]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message >...
> "Wendy Marsden" > wrote
> > I've even heard of parents who resent picky eaters LYING to children
> > about peanuts thinking the kid just doesn't LIKE them and they will like
> > them if they try them.
>
> No doubt some parents also do the reverse -- tell the kid that some
> dessert has peanuts in it just to deter the kid from wanting the dessert.
>
> I just tell the kid the truth. Even a 3-year-old can understand it.

This goes a long way towards explaining why you think the dangers
posed by hot dogs are trivial. Compared to the danger in allowing
an allergic 3-year-old to make her own food decisions, hot dogs
*are* a trivial issue.

Beth

[Wendy Marsden]

Elizabeth Reid > wrote:
> "Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message >...
>>
>> I just tell the kid the truth. Even a 3-year-old can understand it.

> This goes a long way towards explaining why you think the dangers
> posed by hot dogs are trivial. Compared to the danger in allowing
> an allergic 3-year-old to make her own food decisions, hot dogs
> *are* a trivial issue.

I figured he was just trolling with that comment. I've had three bright,
well-behaved intelligent children who absolutely could not be trusted to
take "the truth" and make adult-like decisions from it at the age of
three. This is so self-evident that I'm wondering if he has ever even HAD
a three year old.

Wendy

[Wendy Marsden]

Roger Schlafly > wrote:
> "Wendy Marsden" > wrote
>> I've even heard of parents who resent picky eaters LYING to children
>> about peanuts thinking the kid just doesn't LIKE them and they will like
>> them if they try them.

> No doubt some parents also do the reverse -- tell the kid that some
> dessert has peanuts in it just to deter the kid from wanting the dessert.

> I just tell the kid the truth. Even a 3-year-old can understand it.

I agree you should tell the truth about peanuts in food. I think you are
undermining her ability to trust you about peanuts if you say something
can't be eaten 'cuz it will kill her when you just don't want her having
another snack before dinner.

But I think you are wrong that a three year old can understand the truth
(and make appropriate decisions from it.)

The reason why you can't let her monitor her own food is that:

1.) You can't trust her to research enough to discover if there really is
some peanut product in it

2.) You can't trust other adults to monitor for peanuts adequately AND

3.) You cannot trust that she will make appropriate decisions from the
information she has, i.e., someday she will get curious about what the
effect REALLY is, or someone will taunt her to try it, or she's be
depressed and thinking, "what the hell, I don't care".

You see, children have poor judgment. It's a hallmark of a child. That's
why kids use guns they KNOW they aren't supposed to touch. That's why
they drink and drive. That's why they do all sorts of stupid **** -
because they make bad decisions.

You are fooling yourself terribly if you thinking that KNOWING the facts
and behaving maturely go hand in hand.

Wendy