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john
August 10th 03, 08:07 AM
Best proof I have seen in a long time
http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.html





"My final conclusion after forty years or more in this business
[medicine] is that the unofficial policy of the World Health
Organization and the unoffical policy of the 'Save the Children's
Fund' and ... [other vaccine promoting] organizations is one of murder
and genocide. . . . I cannot see any other possible explanation. . . .
You cannot immunize sick children, malnourished children, and expect
to get away with it. You'll kill far more children than would have
died from natural infection."--Dr Kalokerinos (International Vaccine
Newsletter June 1995)

Happy Dog
August 10th 03, 08:44 PM
"john" > wrote in message.google.com...
> Best proof I have seen in a long time
> http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.html

Why is this "proof" of anything? The only thing this demonstrates is the
hypocrisy of idiots like you. When anyone who appears to be a part of
conventional medicine speaks out against it, you quote it as if it were
proven fact. But when conventional medicine speaks against your beliefs,
it's ignored because of the source. Hard to believe that anyone misses this
for long.
erf

Mr. 4X
August 10th 03, 09:28 PM
(john) wrote:

> Best proof I have seen in a long time
> http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.html

Why is the domain name 'whale.to' looking familiar?...

D. C. Sessions
August 10th 03, 09:47 PM
In >, Happy Dog wrote:

> Why is this "proof" of anything? The only thing this demonstrates is the
> hypocrisy of idiots like you. When anyone who appears to be a part of
> conventional medicine speaks out against it, you quote it as if it were
> proven fact. But when conventional medicine speaks against your beliefs,
> it's ignored because of the source. Hard to believe that anyone misses this
> for long.

Scudamore is the poster child for "argument from authority"
with the circular definition of "authority" as "someone who
agrees with Scudamore."

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

Orac
August 10th 03, 11:03 PM
In article >,
"D. C. Sessions" > wrote:

> In >, Happy Dog wrote:
>
> > Why is this "proof" of anything? The only thing this demonstrates is the
> > hypocrisy of idiots like you. When anyone who appears to be a part of
> > conventional medicine speaks out against it, you quote it as if it were
> > proven fact. But when conventional medicine speaks against your beliefs,
> > it's ignored because of the source. Hard to believe that anyone misses this
> > for long.
>
> Scudamore is the poster child for "argument from authority"
> with the circular definition of "authority" as "someone who
> agrees with Scudamore."

In a never-ending attempt to educate alties about the logical fallacies
they use:

Logical fallacy of "argument from authority" (also known as argumentum
ad verecundiam):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/longview/CTAC/fallacy.htm#Appeal%20to%20Autho
rity
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#authority
http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/authorit.html
http://datanation.com/fallacies/aa.htm

Logical fallacy of "circular reasoning" (also known as "begging the
question" or "Petitio Principii"):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html
http://www.kcmetro.cc.mo.us/longview/CTAC/fallacy.htm#Begging%20the%20Que
stion
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#begging
http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/begquest.html
http://datanation.com/fallacies/begging.htm

This fallacy is similar to circulus in demonstrando, in which the
conclusion is exactly the same as the premise:

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#circulus


Hopefully, we will no longer see alties using these two logical
fallacies, now that they know what they are. ;-)
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

D. C. Sessions
August 11th 03, 12:26 AM
In >, Orac wrote:

> Hopefully, we will no longer see alties using these two logical
> fallacies, now that they know what they are. ;-)

Well, I suppose it being Sunday and all an overflowing
faith in miracles is understandable.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

Jeff Utz
August 11th 03, 01:12 AM
"john" > wrote in message
om...
> Best proof I have seen in a long time
> http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.html
>
>
>
>
>
> "My final conclusion after forty years or more in this business
> [medicine] is that the unofficial policy of the World Health
> Organization and the unoffical policy of the 'Save the Children's
> Fund' and ... [other vaccine promoting] organizations is one of murder
> and genocide. . . . I cannot see any other possible explanation. . . .
> You cannot immunize sick children, malnourished children, and expect
> to get away with it. You'll kill far more children than would have
> died from natural infection."--Dr Kalokerinos (International Vaccine
> Newsletter June 1995)

Actually vaccines have saved millions of lives in Africa. It has nearly
completed eliminated polio, eliminated smallpox and saved countless lives
from other diseases.

The statements you quote are incorrect.

All the best,

Jeff

Gymmie Bob
August 11th 03, 02:50 AM
You are very brainwashed sir. I would like to know what you base your
assumptions on.


"Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "john" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Best proof I have seen in a long time
> > http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "My final conclusion after forty years or more in this business
> > [medicine] is that the unofficial policy of the World Health
> > Organization and the unoffical policy of the 'Save the Children's
> > Fund' and ... [other vaccine promoting] organizations is one of murder
> > and genocide. . . . I cannot see any other possible explanation. . . .
> > You cannot immunize sick children, malnourished children, and expect
> > to get away with it. You'll kill far more children than would have
> > died from natural infection."--Dr Kalokerinos (International Vaccine
> > Newsletter June 1995)
>
> Actually vaccines have saved millions of lives in Africa. It has nearly
> completed eliminated polio, eliminated smallpox and saved countless lives
> from other diseases.
>
> The statements you quote are incorrect.
>
> All the best,
>
> Jeff
>
>

Jeff Utz
August 11th 03, 03:07 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> You are very brainwashed sir. I would like to know what you base your
> assumptions on.
>

The fact that vaccines have almost eliminated polio and completely
eliminated disease from smallpox is well-known. See the WHO documents about
smallpox. The decrease in polio is described in recent issues of the
Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report from the CDC.

There is no evidence that giving vaccines to kids who are malnourished is
harmful. In fact, kids who are malnourished are going to be the ones who are
going to be sickest from the illness that the vaccines prevent.

Jeff

(...)

David Wright
August 11th 03, 03:37 AM
In article >,
Jeff Utz > wrote:
>
>"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
>> You are very brainwashed sir. I would like to know what you base your
>> assumptions on.
>>
>
>The fact that vaccines have almost eliminated polio and completely
>eliminated disease from smallpox is well-known. See the WHO documents about
>smallpox. The decrease in polio is described in recent issues of the
>Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report from the CDC.
>
>There is no evidence that giving vaccines to kids who are malnourished is
>harmful. In fact, kids who are malnourished are going to be the ones who are
>going to be sickest from the illness that the vaccines prevent.

How true, how true. In malnourished populations, measles can have a
10% mortality rate.

Gymmie Boob is unaware of such things, of course.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

D. C. Sessions
August 11th 03, 06:28 AM
In >, David Wright wrote:
> In article >,
> Jeff Utz > wrote:

>>The fact that vaccines have almost eliminated polio and completely
>>eliminated disease from smallpox is well-known. See the WHO documents about
>>smallpox. The decrease in polio is described in recent issues of the
>>Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report from the CDC.
>>
>>There is no evidence that giving vaccines to kids who are malnourished is
>>harmful. In fact, kids who are malnourished are going to be the ones who are
>>going to be sickest from the illness that the vaccines prevent.
>
> How true, how true. In malnourished populations, measles can have a
> 10% mortality rate.

Malnourishment isn't even required. Without modern
supportive care and antibiotics, it had nearly that
high a case mortality in the United States prior to
the 1930s. (Oxygen made a big difference, then
antibiotics.)

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

Rhino Ceros
August 11th 03, 05:11 PM
Carole wrote:

> What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
> the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly.

As society is fighting against murderers heftily, you of course would
declare murder a must to have.

How insane can people behave!?

Carole
August 11th 03, 06:01 PM
I've been following the vaccination argument for quite a while and
sitting on the fence, not knowing which way to jump.
What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly. If vaccination did
actually improve a person's health it follows that conventional
medicine has actually got something right.

Why would they have just ONE THING right and the rest wrong? It
doesn't add up.

Carole
http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/allopathy.htm

Happy Dog
August 11th 03, 06:56 PM
"Carole" > wrote in message news:
> I've been following the vaccination argument for quite a while and
> sitting on the fence, not knowing which way to jump.
> What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
> the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly. If vaccination did
> actually improve a person's health it follows that conventional
> medicine has actually got something right.
> Why would they have just ONE THING right and the rest wrong? It
> doesn't add up.

Conventional medicine only got ONE thing right? Carole, what would you do
if you broke your leg? Sliced your scalp open? Were bitten by a rabid
animal or a poisonous snake?
moo

Earle Horton
August 11th 03, 07:31 PM
"Happy Dog" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Carole" > wrote in message news:
> > I've been following the vaccination argument for quite a while and
> > sitting on the fence, not knowing which way to jump.
> > What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
> > the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly. If vaccination did
> > actually improve a person's health it follows that conventional
> > medicine has actually got something right.
> > Why would they have just ONE THING right and the rest wrong? It
> > doesn't add up.
>
> Conventional medicine only got ONE thing right? Carole, what would you do
> if you broke your leg? Sliced your scalp open? Were bitten by a rabid
> animal or a poisonous snake?
> moo
>
Or came down with a delusional disorder? ;o)

Earle

Gymmie Bob
August 11th 03, 11:14 PM
Once again I will say it but there isn't much hope for people that
closed-minded and blinded by the masses.

You, sir, are brainwashed. Ther is more proof that vaccines have not cured
polio. Europe never had a vacciination programme and how many polio cases do
you see there?

Open your mind. Leave the pharm giants behind or it that the problem? ...a
vested interest?

After the vaccine for polio was created , why did they have to redefine what
having polio meant? Why did the polio statistics only go down after the
redefinition?

Why did Salk admit his vaccine caused two thirds of the deaths from polio?

"Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > You are very brainwashed sir. I would like to know what you base your
> > assumptions on.
> >
>
> The fact that vaccines have almost eliminated polio and completely
> eliminated disease from smallpox is well-known. See the WHO documents
about
> smallpox. The decrease in polio is described in recent issues of the
> Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report from the CDC.
>
> There is no evidence that giving vaccines to kids who are malnourished is
> harmful. In fact, kids who are malnourished are going to be the ones who
are
> going to be sickest from the illness that the vaccines prevent.
>
> Jeff
>
> (...)
>
>

Jeff Utz
August 12th 03, 01:05 AM
"Carole" > wrote in message
m...
> I've been following the vaccination argument for quite a while and
> sitting on the fence, not knowing which way to jump.
> What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
> the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly.

Vaccination prevents disease. How many cases of smallpox and polio have been
reported in the US in the last year? None. The rate of other preventable
diseases, like chicken pox (which kills about 50 people a year in the US),
invasive pneumococcal disease, Hib menigitis, measles, which has a fatality
rate of about 1 in 1000, and rubella, which used to be a leading cause of
birth defects, are all markedly down, as is the cost of these illness in
terms of sickness and death.

> If vaccination did
> actually improve a person's health it follows that conventional
> medicine has actually got something right.

Yeah, it does. Conventional medicine saves about 1/2 of all people with
cancer and about 70-75% of kids with cancer. It does wonders in saving lives
of people who have had heart attacks or have been injured. It is able to
replace diseased organs. It can prevent damage when blood supply is cut off
from the brain (stroke).

> Why would they have just ONE THING right and the rest wrong? It
> doesn't add up.

Medicine is not perfect. Way too many people die from cancer (about 1/2).
Every treatment has side effects. People wait too long in doctors' offices.
Too many people in the US don't have insurance.

But it is better than any alternative medicine, because it is based on
science and has been shown to work.

> Carole
> http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~hubbca/allopathy.htm

The website is incorrect. I support chelation which has not been shown to
help anything, except acute heavy metal poisoning. In addition, the
references include whale.to, the biggest medical joke site in the world (the
author of the whale to site clearly has no clue about medicine, vaccines or
science).

The only proof these website offer to support their opinion that their form
of treatment is of any medical value is tenacity: If they say it enough,
they must be right.

Jeff

Gymmie Bob
August 12th 03, 01:34 AM
Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a bunch of crap and
you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.

Most of the stuff helping people from the medical society is old news from
the alternative medicine world.

I remember doctors telling people that dairy was necesary in their diets and
those fanatics shouldn't be listenned to because of no scientific proof.

I remember scientists laughing at the "earth people" and hippies when they
talk about the CFCs punching holes in the atmosphere.

Who did you think started the fear of vaccines? Alternative medicine people
based on the medical society's testing and reports that the chem/cut
profession doesn't pay attention to until half their patients are gone. Then
they decide to go with the crowd somewhat for fear of losing respect from
their patients.

Vaccines have been exposed a an outright lie by many people, professional
medical people, people from their own profession. Most chem/cut doctors only
preach through ignorance from the literature and free samples they are given
by guess who.


"Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
...
>
> Vaccination prevents disease. How many cases of smallpox and polio have
been
> reported in the US in the last year? None. The rate of other preventable
> diseases, like chicken pox (which kills about 50 people a year in the US),
> invasive pneumococcal disease, Hib menigitis, measles, which has a
fatality
> rate of about 1 in 1000, and rubella, which used to be a leading cause of
> birth defects, are all markedly down, as is the cost of these illness in
> terms of sickness and death.
>
> The website is incorrect. I support chelation which has not been shown to
> help anything, except acute heavy metal poisoning. In addition, the
> references include whale.to, the biggest medical joke site in the world
(the
> author of the whale to site clearly has no clue about medicine, vaccines
or
> science).
>
> The only proof these website offer to support their opinion that their
form
> of treatment is of any medical value is tenacity: If they say it enough,
> they must be right.
>
> Jeff
>
>

Jeff Utz
August 12th 03, 02:27 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Once again I will say it but there isn't much hope for people that
> closed-minded and blinded by the masses.
>
> You, sir, are brainwashed. Ther is more proof that vaccines have not cured
> polio. Europe never had a vacciination programme and how many polio cases
do
> you see there?

Really? Please support your contentiont that there was no vaccination
programs in Europe.

> Open your mind. Leave the pharm giants behind or it that the problem? ...a
> vested interest?

I don't have any vested interests in pharmaceutical companies. I get no
money from them in any way.

> After the vaccine for polio was created , why did they have to redefine
what
> having polio meant?

Because a lot of illnesses that were not caused by the polio virus were
included in the statistics. So they wanted to make sure that they got every
case of illness caused by the virus, but not other illnesses. Remember, it
was not until the 50s that we had microscoped that can see the virus. So
this reflects an effort to do a better job at seperating illness caused by
this virus from other illnesses as well as a better understanding of hte
disease.

> Why did the polio statistics only go down after the
> redefinition?

Because a lot illnesses that were not polio were included in the definition.

> Why did Salk admit his vaccine caused two thirds of the deaths from polio?

First I heard of it. Reference please.

Jeff

> "Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > You are very brainwashed sir. I would like to know what you base your
> > > assumptions on.
> > >
> >
> > The fact that vaccines have almost eliminated polio and completely
> > eliminated disease from smallpox is well-known. See the WHO documents
> about
> > smallpox. The decrease in polio is described in recent issues of the
> > Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report from the CDC.
> >
> > There is no evidence that giving vaccines to kids who are malnourished
is
> > harmful. In fact, kids who are malnourished are going to be the ones who
> are
> > going to be sickest from the illness that the vaccines prevent.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > (...)
> >
> >
>
>

Steve Harris
August 12th 03, 03:05 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a
bunch of crap and
> you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.


What kind of proof would you accept?

Seen any smallpox lately?

D. C. Sessions
August 12th 03, 04:20 AM
In >, Carole wrote:

> What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
> the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly. If vaccination did
> actually improve a person's health it follows that conventional
> medicine has actually got something right.

Conventional medicine is also relentless for exercise,
a balanced diet, adequate rest, soap & water, seat belts,
etc.

Dare we expect consistency?

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

Gymmie Bob
August 12th 03, 04:21 AM
Some interesting reading. Of course it will be all bull**** to you, the same
as the last documents published
http://www.whale.to/v/salk6.html

http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/vaccine_awareness/Polio_Meningitis_Diagn
osis.html

Some statistical evidence on vaccines and disease in general
http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/vaccine_awareness/vaccination_inefficacy
..html
http://www.health.org.nz/polio.html

Statistically showing polio related to pesticide usage
http://www.newtreatments.org/Basics/ga/558/The%20Salk%20Vaccine:%20What%20*r
eally*%20caused%20the%20decline%20in%20Polio%20cas es%20%3F

Salk admits Sabin's vaccine isn't good
http://www.trufax.org/chrono/cri.html

From http://www.sumeria.net/health/vacc.html
------------------------------------------
Now, I want to tell you about a much bigger lie that you've been fed. I want
to talk to you about polio, because polio is a disease that most people
think was the great success story of vaccinations. Let me read again from
Walene James' book. Jonas Salk, the discoverer of the Salk polio vaccine has
been called the 20th century miracle maker, and the savior of countless
lives. We read glowing reports of the dramatic decrease in polio in the U.S.
as a result of the Salk vaccine.

For instance, the Virginia State Department of Health distributes a folder
which tells us that polio vaccines reduced the incidence of polio in the
U.S. from 18,000 cases in 1954 to fewer than 20 in 1973-78. A recent article
in Modern Maturity states that in 1953 there were 15,000 some odd cases of
polio in the U.S. and by 1957 due to the Salk vaccine, the number had
dropped to 2499.

However, during the 1962 Congressional hearings on HR10541, Dr. Bernard
Greenberg, head of the Department of Biostatistics at the University of
North Carolina, School of Public Health, testified that not only [now listen
to this, folks...] not only did polio increase substantially after the
introduction of mass and frequently compulsory immunization programs, but
statistics were manipulated and statements made by the Public Health Service
to give the opposite impression.

You have been lied to folks. The polio vaccine caused more polio than it
protected people from. Moving on...

For instance, in 1957, the North Carolina Health Department made glowing
claims for the efficacy of the Salk vaccine, showing how polio steadily
decreased from 1953 to 1957. These figures were challenged by Dr. Fred
Klenner who pointed out that it wasn't until 1955 that a single person in
the state even received the polio vaccine injection.

Even then, the injections were administered on a very limited basis because
of the number of polio cases resulting from the vaccine. It wasn't until
1956 that polio vaccinations assumed inspiring proportions. The 61% drop in
polio cases in 1954 was credited to the Salk vaccine, when it wasn't even in
the state yet. Nevertheless, by 1957, when the massive vaccination program
had taken place, polio was again on the increase.
---------------------------------------------------

"Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Once again I will say it but there isn't much hope for people that
> > closed-minded and blinded by the masses.
> >
> > You, sir, are brainwashed. Ther is more proof that vaccines have not
cured
> > polio. Europe never had a vacciination programme and how many polio
cases
> do
> > you see there?
>
> Really? Please support your contentiont that there was no vaccination
> programs in Europe.
>
> > Open your mind. Leave the pharm giants behind or it that the problem?
....a
> > vested interest?
>
> I don't have any vested interests in pharmaceutical companies. I get no
> money from them in any way.
>
> > After the vaccine for polio was created , why did they have to redefine
> what
> > having polio meant?
>
> Because a lot of illnesses that were not caused by the polio virus were
> included in the statistics. So they wanted to make sure that they got
every
> case of illness caused by the virus, but not other illnesses. Remember, it
> was not until the 50s that we had microscoped that can see the virus. So
> this reflects an effort to do a better job at seperating illness caused by
> this virus from other illnesses as well as a better understanding of hte
> disease.
>
> > Why did the polio statistics only go down after the
> > redefinition?
>
> Because a lot illnesses that were not polio were included in the
definition.
>
> > Why did Salk admit his vaccine caused two thirds of the deaths from
polio?
>
> First I heard of it. Reference please.
>
> Jeff
>
> > "Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > You are very brainwashed sir. I would like to know what you base
your
> > > > assumptions on.
> > > >
> > >
> > > The fact that vaccines have almost eliminated polio and completely
> > > eliminated disease from smallpox is well-known. See the WHO documents
> > about
> > > smallpox. The decrease in polio is described in recent issues of the
> > > Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report from the CDC.
> > >
> > > There is no evidence that giving vaccines to kids who are malnourished
> is
> > > harmful. In fact, kids who are malnourished are going to be the ones
who
> > are
> > > going to be sickest from the illness that the vaccines prevent.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > (...)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

D. C. Sessions
August 12th 03, 04:26 AM
In >, Gymmie Bob wrote:

> Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a bunch of crap and
> you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.

Measles, mumps, rubella, polio, haemophilus influenzae B,
diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus. Pick one.

North America, Japan, Europe, or any country with reasonably
complete incidence records. Pick one.

Post the incidence of the disease for the ten years before
and after the beginning of mass vaccination. Show us that
it doesn't work.

Nine diseases. Dozens of countries. All you need is one
good example. It should be easy.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

Earle Horton
August 12th 03, 04:42 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Lack of evidence doesn't prove anything. There is no proof.
> Statistical analysis always has proven agaainst vaccines.
>
> Statistically we can prove vaccines increase disease per capita.
>
You are a fool. If this were true there would now be more cases of smallpox
per capita than there ever were in its heyday, rather than smallpox being
completely eradicated.

Smallpox has been completely eradicated by vaccine.

You are a fool.

Completely eradicated.

Get it?

Earle

David Wright
August 12th 03, 06:01 AM
In article >,
Gymmie Bob > wrote:

>Why did Salk admit his vaccine caused two thirds of the deaths from polio?

He didn't. Where did you come up with this howler?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

David Wright
August 12th 03, 06:02 AM
In article >,
Gymmie Bob > wrote:
>Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a bunch of crap and
>you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.

It's easy enough to find in the medical literature if you go looking
for it. Or, even try to find another explanation for the plunge in
measles incidence after vaccination was introduced.

>Who did you think started the fear of vaccines? Alternative medicine
>people based on

Nothing in particular except fearmongering.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Happy Dog
August 12th 03, 07:44 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message

> Statistically showing polio related to pesticide usage
>
http://www.newtreatments.org/Basics/ga/558/The%20Salk%20Vaccine:%20What%20*r
> eally*%20caused%20the%20decline%20in%20Polio%20cas es%20%3F

No it doesn't.
>
> Salk admits Sabin's vaccine isn't good
> http://www.trufax.org/chrono/cri.html

BS

I'm safe with these dismissals. I know that you won't defend a single
points in your own words.
moo

Bronsing
August 12th 03, 09:19 AM
Gymmie Bob > wrote in message
...
> Once again I will say it but there isn't much hope for people that
> closed-minded and blinded by the masses.
>
> You, sir, are brainwashed. Ther is more proof that vaccines have not cured
> polio. Europe never had a vacciination programme and how many polio cases
do
> you see there?
>

Bull****. I'm from Europe, vaccination grade here is pretty high.

--

Robert Bronsing

Can't you see?
It all makes perfect sense,
expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence

(R. Waters)

john
August 12th 03, 11:13 AM
"Steve Harris" > wrote in message >...
> "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a
> bunch of crap and
> > you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.
>
>
> What kind of proof would you accept?
>
> Seen any smallpox lately?

get informed http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox.html

Jeff Utz
August 12th 03, 12:29 PM
Thanks. All the authors are very good at misleading people.

Jeff

Jeff Utz
August 12th 03, 12:31 PM
"john" > wrote in message
om...
> "Steve Harris" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a
> > bunch of crap and
> > > you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.
> >
> >
> > What kind of proof would you accept?
> >
> > Seen any smallpox lately?
>
> get informed http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox.html

The only things the whale to site will do is inform you at how people who
are totally clueless about vaccines and medicine and science can totally
full themselves.

Peter \Firefly\ Lund
August 12th 03, 01:43 PM
On Mon, 11 Aug 2003, Gymmie Bob wrote:

> Europe never had a vacciination programme

Huh?

> and how many polio cases do
> you see there?

As far as I know I wasn't stuck with a needle - I got a lump of sugar with
the polio innoculation stuff on it when I was a couple of years old (I'm
from 1970).

I have a formal document from the state somewhere that documents the
diseases I have been innoculated against as a child :)

-Peter

PS: We did have polio in Denmark - until we started a vaccination
program. There are plenty of middle-aged polio survivors around :)

Mark Probert
August 12th 03, 03:42 PM
Gymmie Bob wrote:
> Once again I will say it but there isn't much hope for people that
> closed-minded and blinded by the masses.
>
> You, sir, are brainwashed. Ther is more proof that vaccines have not cured
> polio. Europe never had a vacciination programme and how many polio cases do
> you see there?

See:

http://www.nature.com/nsu/020617/020617-12.html
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00044164.htm
http://www.who.int/inf/en/pr-EURO.2002-12.02.html

for starters.

IOW,Europe is polio free as the direct result of a mass vaccination
program.

I deleted the rest, as your premise was inherently faulty.

Peter Bowditch
August 12th 03, 04:06 PM
(john) wrote:

>Best proof I have seen in a long time
>http://www.whale.to/a/nkuba.html
>
>
>
>
>
>"My final conclusion after forty years or more in this business
>[medicine] is that the unofficial policy of the World Health
>Organization and the unoffical policy of the 'Save the Children's
>Fund' and ... [other vaccine promoting] organizations is one of murder
>and genocide. . . . I cannot see any other possible explanation. . . .
>You cannot immunize sick children, malnourished children, and expect
>to get away with it. You'll kill far more children than would have
>died from natural infection."--Dr Kalokerinos (International Vaccine
>Newsletter June 1995)

I saw the Kalokerinos freak spout this pack o'lies at a seminar once.
It was unnerving to see how sane someone as mad as he is could look.
By the way, he has now updated his story to "deliberate policy" rather
than "unofficial policy".

Remember the bad old days when they used to lock things like this up?

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
I'm a Bright. Are you?

Peter Bowditch
August 12th 03, 04:10 PM
(john) wrote:

>That sure bought out the pharma morons. Thank god for killfiles! too
>many pyama people.
>
>"Vaccination enables the selection of populations to be decimated. It
>facilitates targeted genocide. It permits one to kill people of a
>certain race, a certain group, a certain country. And to leave others
>untouched. In the name of health and well-being, of course."--Lanctot
>MD http://www.whale.to/vaccines/lanctot.html

I thought that Kalokerinos was the pits of madness, but trust John to
find someone even madder.

>
>"Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with
>nature."-----THE MESSAGE OF THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES
>http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
I'm a Bright. Are you?

Peter Bowditch
August 12th 03, 04:13 PM
"Jeff Utz" > wrote:

>> "Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with
>> nature."-----THE MESSAGE OF THE GEORGIA GUIDESTONES
>> http://www.radioliberty.com/stones.htm
>
>I fail to see the relevance of this article.

One of the more lunatic ideas to come out of the anti-vaccination
liars is that vaccines are part of some vast conspiracy to kill 5.5
billion people, leaving only 500,000,000 behind. The only person I
have personally seen who appeared to be more insane that Kalokerinos
on stage says that this must be true because David Icke said it. You
know Icke - he's the one who says that the Queen of England is a
lizard.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
I'm a Bright. Are you?

Peter Bowditch
August 12th 03, 04:17 PM
"Happy Dog" > wrote:

>"Carole" > wrote in message news:
>> I've been following the vaccination argument for quite a while and
>> sitting on the fence, not knowing which way to jump.
>> What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
>> the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly. If vaccination did
>> actually improve a person's health it follows that conventional
>> medicine has actually got something right.
>> Why would they have just ONE THING right and the rest wrong? It
>> doesn't add up.
>
>Conventional medicine only got ONE thing right? Carole, what would you do
>if you broke your leg? Sliced your scalp open? Were bitten by a rabid
>animal or a poisonous snake?
>moo

No rabies in Australia, so Carole won't have to worry about that one.
(Many of the anti-vaccination liars here seem to be rabid, but the
mouth foam is just from general craziness, not rabies.) Snakes are
another matter, but I assume that if Carole were to be bitten by a
taipan she would just call up the Royal Flying Homeopath Service and
get them to drop off some bottles of tincture of tincture of tincture
....


>

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
I'm a Bright. Are you?

Peter Bowditch
August 12th 03, 04:19 PM
(john) wrote:

>Best proof I have seen in a long time

John reappears after a long hiatus. He reappears on the occasion of a
full moon. Coincidence? I think not.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
I'm a Bright. Are you?

Tsu Dho Nimh
August 12th 03, 04:54 PM
(Carole) wrote:

>I've been following the vaccination argument for quite a while and
>sitting on the fence, not knowing which way to jump.
>What finally made me lean towards anti-vaccination is partly because
>the conventional system flogs it so relentlessly.

They also "flog" stopping smoking, eating a nutritious diet, and
getting moderate exercise daily?

Are you going to start smoking, eat nohting but junk food and
stop getting out of bed because these things are relentlessly
flogged?


Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

Eric Bohlman
August 12th 03, 06:00 PM
Peter Bowditch > wrote in
:

> No rabies in Australia, so Carole won't have to worry about that one.
> (Many of the anti-vaccination liars here seem to be rabid, but the
> mouth foam is just from general craziness, not rabies.) Snakes are
> another matter, but I assume that if Carole were to be bitten by a
> taipan she would just call up the Royal Flying Homeopath Service and
> get them to drop off some bottles of tincture of tincture of tincture

Did you hear about the homeopath who tried to bump off his father in order
to collect on the insurance? He took him out to dinner, arranged for him
to be called to the phone, and while his father was away, he shook his
glass of water. Fortunately, the father got suspicious and took the glass
to the police. Toxicologists found zero molecules of cyanide, zero
molecules of oxalic acid, and what looked like zero molecules of ricin,
though the test was inconclusive. The son was convicted of attempted
murder by multiple poisoning, though the count involving the ricin was
thrown out after the defense argued that the testing procedure was
substandard and might have missed a molecule or two.

Tsu Dho Nimh
August 12th 03, 06:26 PM
"Anth" > wrote:

>> For instance, in 1957, the North Carolina Health Department made glowing
>> claims for the efficacy of the Salk vaccine, showing how polio steadily
>> decreased from 1953 to 1957. These figures were challenged by Dr. Fred
>> Klenner who pointed out that it wasn't until 1955 that a single person in
>> the state even received the polio vaccine injection.

One would like to see that supposed health department claim to
see what the wording really was.

>So what does this mean - polio was in a natural downward trend during those
>years (1953.1955) ?

The post WWII polio epidemic peaked in 1952 and reported
infections were declining when the vaccine was introduced ... for
the same reason all epidemics peak: it ran out of suceptible
hosts. If the vaccine had not been introduced, there would have
been the same roughly 7-year cycle seen in most human diseases,
happening every time you get a large enough crop if children born
since the last epidemic.

Howevre, if you look at the graphs ... there never was another
epidemic peak even approaching the heights seen in the early 50s.
The baby boom continues unabated, but despite larg enumbers of
potential victims, it's never been back.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

Gymmie Bob
August 12th 03, 10:12 PM
and which country in Europe of the hundreds, were you in the 1956-1965
years?

"Bronsing" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Gymmie Bob > wrote in message
> ...
> > Once again I will say it but there isn't much hope for people that
> > closed-minded and blinded by the masses.
> >
> > You, sir, are brainwashed. Ther is more proof that vaccines have not
cured
> > polio. Europe never had a vacciination programme and how many polio
cases
> do
> > you see there?
> >
>
> Bull****. I'm from Europe, vaccination grade here is pretty high.
>
> --
>
> Robert Bronsing
>
> Can't you see?
> It all makes perfect sense,
> expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence
>
> (R. Waters)
>
>
>

Gymmie Bob
August 12th 03, 10:17 PM
I sure am glad you cannot control me or my children. A lot more of us would
be dead by now.

You stick with your media controlled mind and believe what the pharm giants
want you to believe.

Can you sit up and beg also?

"Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
...
>
> "john" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Steve Harris" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a
> > > bunch of crap and
> > > > you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.
> > >
> > >
> > > What kind of proof would you accept?
> > >
> > > Seen any smallpox lately?
> >
> > get informed http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox.html
>
> The only things the whale to site will do is inform you at how people who
> are totally clueless about vaccines and medicine and science can totally
> full themselves.
>
>

Mark Probert
August 12th 03, 10:31 PM
john wrote:

> "Steve Harris" > wrote in message >...
>
>>"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Where is the proof that vaccines prvent diseases? That's a
>>
>> bunch of crap and
>>
>>>you saying it repeatedlyt doesn't make it true.
>>
>>
>>What kind of proof would you accept?
>>
>>Seen any smallpox lately?
>
>
> get informed http://www.whale.to/vaccines/smallpox.html

Anything from this century?

Jeff Utz
August 12th 03, 10:35 PM
Gymmie Bob, may I suggest that you show where the whale to site's statements
are backed by facts?

That is the way to support yourself.

Jeff

Mightyoledragon
August 12th 03, 11:25 PM
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Please also provide your email, the city and State you live in.
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Signed,
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Gymmie Bob
August 13th 03, 12:41 AM
I suggest you show proof that the decline in polio or any disease was due to
vaccines. You have shown absolutely nothing at this point except to repeat
the old "what I have been told all my life". I bet you believe in vaccines
but argue homeopathics don't work in the next breath.

I guess we have a standoff then don't we?

"Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
...
> Gymmie Bob, may I suggest that you show where the whale to site's
statements
> are backed by facts?
>
> That is the way to support yourself.
>
> Jeff
>
>

Jeff Utz
August 13th 03, 01:22 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> I suggest you show proof that the decline in polio or any disease was due
to
> vaccines.

Influenza: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/rr/rr5208.pdf
Pneumococcal disease: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/rr/rr4909.pdf
Hepatitis A: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr4812a1.htm
Measles, mumps and rubella:
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00053391.htm

You would also notice that these reports are well-documented.

> You have shown absolutely nothing at this point except to repeat
> the old "what I have been told all my life". I bet you believe in vaccines
> but argue homeopathics don't work in the next breath.

When vaccines were discovered, no one knew how they work. Now we do, thanks
to learning about immunology and microbiology.

There is no evidence that the theory behind homeopathy is correct. However,
the theories behind modern immunization are well-supported immunology and
bacteriology. In well-supported by the results of vaccination.

> I guess we have a standoff then don't we?

No. Because you have no understanding of modern science or medicine. Just
blind belief.

Jeff

> "Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Gymmie Bob, may I suggest that you show where the whale to site's
> statements
> > are backed by facts?
> >
> > That is the way to support yourself.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >
>
>

Steve Harris
August 13th 03, 01:29 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> I suggest you show proof that the decline in polio or any
disease was due to
> vaccines.


How would we do that? No matter what happens, you will
always find something else to "blame."

Fortunately, there are plenty of direct randomized blinded
controlled trials of vaccines in humans.

And also randomized controlled trials in animals, where they
can do something that you usually can't do in humans, which
is challenge with the pathogen directly to test the vaccine
in the lab. In a recent trial of Ebola vaccine, 100% of the
vaccinated monkeys survived when given live Ebola later.
100% of the unvaccinated monkeys died, when given the same
virus at the same time. Of Ebola.

SBH

Gymmie Bob
August 13th 03, 03:51 AM
Most of us do not plan on injecting live bacteria into our bloodstreams in
the near future. However, most of us hope to live without HIV, cancer, crib
death and many other newly created diseases.

"Steve Harris" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I suggest you show proof that the decline in polio or any
> disease was due to
> > vaccines.
>
>
> How would we do that? No matter what happens, you will
> always find something else to "blame."
>
> Fortunately, there are plenty of direct randomized blinded
> controlled trials of vaccines in humans.
>
> And also randomized controlled trials in animals, where they
> can do something that you usually can't do in humans, which
> is challenge with the pathogen directly to test the vaccine
> in the lab. In a recent trial of Ebola vaccine, 100% of the
> vaccinated monkeys survived when given live Ebola later.
> 100% of the unvaccinated monkeys died, when given the same
> virus at the same time. Of Ebola.
>
> SBH
>
>
>

D. C. Sessions
August 13th 03, 05:05 AM
In >, Gymmie Bob wrote:

> Most of us do not plan on injecting live bacteria into our bloodstreams in
> the near future.

What do puncture wounds (e.g. the old garden nail)
have to do with Ebola?

> However, most of us hope to live without HIV, cancer, crib
> death and many other newly created diseases.

Curious -- cancer is "newly created?"
Crib death is "newly created?"
(HIV is fairly new, although "created" is dubious at best.)

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

David Wright
August 13th 03, 05:28 AM
In article >,
Gymmie Bob > wrote:
>Most of us do not plan on injecting live bacteria into our bloodstreams in
>the near future.

Yeah, well, neither does most anyone who dies of tetanus.

>However, most of us hope to live without HIV, cancer, crib
>death and many other newly created diseases.

Anyone who thinks that either crib death or cancer are "newly created
diseases" is too ignorant to live.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)



>"Steve Harris" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > I suggest you show proof that the decline in polio or any
>> disease was due to
>> > vaccines.
>>
>>
>> How would we do that? No matter what happens, you will
>> always find something else to "blame."
>>
>> Fortunately, there are plenty of direct randomized blinded
>> controlled trials of vaccines in humans.
>>
>> And also randomized controlled trials in animals, where they
>> can do something that you usually can't do in humans, which
>> is challenge with the pathogen directly to test the vaccine
>> in the lab. In a recent trial of Ebola vaccine, 100% of the
>> vaccinated monkeys survived when given live Ebola later.
>> 100% of the unvaccinated monkeys died, when given the same
>> virus at the same time. Of Ebola.

Happy Dog
August 13th 03, 06:56 AM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Most of us do not plan on injecting live bacteria into our bloodstreams in
> the near future. However, most of us hope to live without HIV, cancer,
crib
> death and many other newly created diseases.

Ahh, good. So you agree that you have been shown proof that vaccines work.

le moo



>
> "Steve Harris" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I suggest you show proof that the decline in polio or any
> > disease was due to
> > > vaccines.
> >
> >
> > How would we do that? No matter what happens, you will
> > always find something else to "blame."
> >
> > Fortunately, there are plenty of direct randomized blinded
> > controlled trials of vaccines in humans.
> >
> > And also randomized controlled trials in animals, where they
> > can do something that you usually can't do in humans, which
> > is challenge with the pathogen directly to test the vaccine
> > in the lab. In a recent trial of Ebola vaccine, 100% of the
> > vaccinated monkeys survived when given live Ebola later.
> > 100% of the unvaccinated monkeys died, when given the same
> > virus at the same time. Of Ebola.
> >
> > SBH
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Jeff Utz
August 13th 03, 01:28 PM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Most of us do not plan on injecting live bacteria into our bloodstreams in
> the near future. However, most of us hope to live without HIV, cancer,
crib
> death and many other newly created diseases.
>

Really? Newly created? Cancer has been recorded for centuries. There is no
reason to suspect that crib death (SIDS) has not been with us for time
immemorial. HIV has been in Africa over 50 years. It is air travel and rapid
transportation that seems to have spread it around.

As far as newly created, I did not know that anyone created this problems.

Jeff

AT
August 13th 03, 02:18 PM
"Gymmie Bob" > wrote in response to "Jeff Utz"...
> You are very brainwashed sir. I would like to know what you base your
> assumptions on.

Assuming your question is to the value and efficacy of vaccination as
a means of preventing disease, you might look up Peter Calamai, who
writes for the Toronto Star. Perhaps he would share his research with
you. Barring that level of interaction, you could read the article he
wrote in that periodical, which says in part,

The deluge of myths, disinformation and misinformation in the
vaccination wars is so great that it has obscured the clear
evidence that immunization is without doubt the most beneficial
medical intervention of all time in terms of lives saves and
illness averted. The evidence is equally clear that any vacci-
nation carries health risks - including even death in rare
cases - but that the health risks from being unvaccinated and
getting infected by measles, mumps, polio and the rest are many,
many times greater.

These basic points are driven home by piles of peer-reviewed
studies, the "gold standard" of scientific research, and by
tragic real-life experiments such as those which took place
in Britain, Sweden and Japan in the 1970s and 1980s.

Spooked by a public outcry from misinformation that linked
whole cell pertussis vaccine to encephalopathy and sudden
infant death syndrome, the health authorities in those three
countries cut back on vaccination, sparking a dramatic upsurge
in whooping cough.

From 1976 to 1988, Britain experienced three epidemics with more
than 300,000 cases of pertussis and at least 70 deaths, half in
a single year. In Japan, pertussis increased from 393 cases and
no deaths in 1974, to 13,000 cases and 41 deaths in 1979, and
in Sweden pertussis infection rates soared from 700 cases per
100,000 population in 1981 to 3,200 in 1984.

When vaccination was re-introduced, pertussis cases plunged.


The Toronto Star, Friday, August 23, 2002. You may note that this
author is not posting from a "whale.to" website. So, if you find this
article supports your position in any way, then you might find
professional health care practitioners more receptive to reading it.

@~

D. C. Sessions
August 13th 03, 03:00 PM
In >, Bronsing wrote:
> Gymmie Bob > wrote in message
> ...
>> and which country in Europe of the hundreds, were you in the 1956-1965
>> years?
>
> Your claim was:
>
> "Europe never had a vacciination programme", as in "never had". Secondly,
> learn a little bit about Europe (hint, there aren't "hundreds" of European
> countries). As for my nationality; I'm Dutch.

So what does being from Pennsylvania have to do with Europe?

GD&R

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

JG
August 13th 03, 07:56 PM
"Jeff Utz" > wrote in message
...

> The only things the whale to site will do is inform you at how people
who
> are totally clueless about vaccines and medicine and science can
totally
> full themselves.

*sigh*...You need more than a spell checker, Utz....