Danish Study on Fantasy Autism-Thimerosal Link

[Mark Probert]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html

From the article...

"In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from 1971
to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the first
country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.

Rather, autism diagnoses continued to skyrocket on the same trajectory that
began in the late 1980's, rising from less than one case per 10,000 Danish
youngsters in 1990 to more than three a decade later."

The article points out how the anti-mercury/vaccinationistas attempted to
discount the findings, and were shown to be wrong.

Oh well, the anti-vac liars will have to cook up some new whacko ideas.

[PF Riley]

On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 21:19:44 GMT, "Mark Probert"
> wrote:

>http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
>
>From the article...
>
>"In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
>Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from 1971
>to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the first
>country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.
>
>Rather, autism diagnoses continued to skyrocket on the same trajectory that
>began in the late 1980's, rising from less than one case per 10,000 Danish
>youngsters in 1990 to more than three a decade later."
>
>The article points out how the anti-mercury/vaccinationistas attempted to
>discount the findings, and were shown to be wrong.
>
>Oh well, the anti-vac liars will have to cook up some new whacko ideas.

Or just keep modifying their theory to fit the data.

"Once almost all one's energies are expended on protecting one's core
theory from being falsified, it is no longer being approached as a
scientific theory but as an item of faith - to be defended come what
may."

PF

[Jeff]

"Peter Bowditch" > wrote in message
...
> "Jeff" > wrote:
>
> >I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They believe
> >what they say.
>
> Hardly a week goes by when I don't see an ant-vaccinator say something
> which I know that they know is untrue. When the truth is pointed out
> to them they just wait a few weeks before saying the lies again. I am,
> of course, speaking of the leaders of the movement. The followers may
> be deluded and believe what they say.

How do you know that they know? And don't think the followers in the
movement are delude, but, rather, misled.

Jeff


> --
> Peter Bowditch
> The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
> The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
> To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

[Peter Bowditch]

"Jeff" > wrote:

>
>"Peter Bowditch" > wrote in message
...
>> "Jeff" > wrote:
>>
>> >I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They believe
>> >what they say.
>>
>> Hardly a week goes by when I don't see an ant-vaccinator say something
>> which I know that they know is untrue. When the truth is pointed out
>> to them they just wait a few weeks before saying the lies again. I am,
>> of course, speaking of the leaders of the movement. The followers may
>> be deluded and believe what they say.
>
>How do you know that they know?

Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue. At least
once a month I see the "MMR has mercury" lie. Just yesterday I saw the
"vaccines are made from aborted foetuses" lie. A month ago I was told
the "it is impossible to shake a baby and hurt it" lie. These lies all
came from people who know the truth. They have had the truth pointed
out to them and yet they still lie. They cite medical publications
which do not contain the words that they quote. They fabricate numbers
which can be proved to be incorrect, yet they continue to quote them
after the errors have been pointed out. They relate anecdotes of such
transparent falseness that they would make honest people blush.


>And don't think the followers in the
>movement are delude, but, rather, misled.

Deluded and misled are points on a continuum. I have no fight with the
followers, just as I have no fight with the victims of medical
quackery. People believe what authoritative gurus tell them because
they don't have the education or critical skills to see through the
deception.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

[Mark Probert]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mark Probert" > wrote in message
> et...
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
> >
> > From the article...
> >
> > "In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
> > Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from
> 1971
> > to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the
first
> > country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.
> >
> > Rather, autism diagnoses continued to skyrocket on the same trajectory
> that
> > began in the late 1980's, rising from less than one case per 10,000
Danish
> > youngsters in 1990 to more than three a decade later."
> >
> > The article points out how the anti-mercury/vaccinationistas attempted
to
> > discount the findings, and were shown to be wrong.
> >
> > Oh well, the anti-vac liars will have to cook up some new whacko ideas.
>
> I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They believe
> what they say.
>
> However, this articles demonstrates another line of evidence that vaccines
> do not cause autism. The article certainly does not prove it. But this,
> along with many scientific studies clearly demonstrates that neither
mercury
> nor vaccines contribute the rise of autism and that mercury and vaccines
> cause very few, at most.
>
> Sadly, the people who so much want to prevent autism are wasting so many
> resources on this hypothesis which has practically been totally disproved.
> How sad that that these people don't put their energy to good use.

Agreed. A Newsweek article pointed out that a study whowed that Autism is
substantially more often found in boys. If boys and girls get equal amounts
of vaccines, then, there is another factor whic mitigates against the
vaccination claims.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/959486.asp

http://www.msnbc.com/news/958646.asp

[Mark Probert]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Peter Bowditch" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jeff" > wrote:
> >
> > >I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They
believe
> > >what they say.
> >
> > Hardly a week goes by when I don't see an ant-vaccinator say something
> > which I know that they know is untrue. When the truth is pointed out
> > to them they just wait a few weeks before saying the lies again. I am,
> > of course, speaking of the leaders of the movement. The followers may
> > be deluded and believe what they say.
>
> How do you know that they know?

They were shown that they are wrong and they keep repeating what they know
is not true. Thus, lies.

And don't think the followers in the
> movement are delude, but, rather, misled.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> > --
> > Peter Bowditch
> > The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
> > The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
> > To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com
>
>

[Jeff]

"Peter Bowditch" > wrote in message
...
> "Jeff" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Peter Bowditch" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Jeff" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They
believe
> >> >what they say.
> >>
> >> Hardly a week goes by when I don't see an ant-vaccinator say something
> >> which I know that they know is untrue. When the truth is pointed out
> >> to them they just wait a few weeks before saying the lies again. I am,
> >> of course, speaking of the leaders of the movement. The followers may
> >> be deluded and believe what they say.
> >
> >How do you know that they know?
>
> Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue. At least
> once a month I see the "MMR has mercury" lie. Just yesterday I saw the
> "vaccines are made from aborted foetuses" lie. A month ago I was told
> the "it is impossible to shake a baby and hurt it" lie. These lies all
> came from people who know the truth. They have had the truth pointed
> out to them and yet they still lie.

Having the truth pointed out to them is not the same thing as them know the
truth. It does show their ability to learn and assimilate new ideas and
their understanding of science and medicine.

> They cite medical publications
> which do not contain the words that they quote.

This is certainly a problem. This points to stupidity, not dishonesty.

> They fabricate numbers
> which can be proved to be incorrect, yet they continue to quote them
> after the errors have been pointed out.

Because they do not see their errors.

> They relate anecdotes of such
> transparent falseness that they would make honest people blush.
>
>
> >And don't think the followers in the
> >movement are delude, but, rather, misled.
>
> Deluded and misled are points on a continuum. I have no fight with the
> followers, just as I have no fight with the victims of medical
> quackery. People believe what authoritative gurus tell them because
> they don't have the education or critical skills to see through the
> deception.

There is an old saying that goes like this: "Never attribute to malice that
which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

The behaviors you are discussing I think are more likely stupidity (and not
really looking for truth and understanding) than malice or lying.

Howeve, in either case, I think we will both agree that their behaviors are
reprehensible, especially when kids are injured because their parents fail
to get them vaccinated because they beleive their lies.

Jeff

> --
> Peter Bowditch
> The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
> The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
> To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

[Jeff]

"Mark Probert" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Mark Probert" > wrote in message
> > et...
> > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
> > >
> > > From the article...
> > >
> > > "In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team
of
> > > Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from
> > 1971
> > > to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the
> first
> > > country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.
> > >
> > > Rather, autism diagnoses continued to skyrocket on the same trajectory
> > that
> > > began in the late 1980's, rising from less than one case per 10,000
> Danish
> > > youngsters in 1990 to more than three a decade later."
> > >
> > > The article points out how the anti-mercury/vaccinationistas attempted
> to
> > > discount the findings, and were shown to be wrong.
> > >
> > > Oh well, the anti-vac liars will have to cook up some new whacko
ideas.
> >
> > I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They
believe
> > what they say.
> >
> > However, this articles demonstrates another line of evidence that
vaccines
> > do not cause autism. The article certainly does not prove it. But this,
> > along with many scientific studies clearly demonstrates that neither
> mercury
> > nor vaccines contribute the rise of autism and that mercury and vaccines
> > cause very few, at most.
> >
> > Sadly, the people who so much want to prevent autism are wasting so many
> > resources on this hypothesis which has practically been totally
disproved.
> > How sad that that these people don't put their energy to good use.
>
> Agreed. A Newsweek article pointed out that a study whowed that Autism is
> substantially more often found in boys. If boys and girls get equal
amounts
> of vaccines, then, there is another factor whic mitigates against the
> vaccination claims.
>
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/959486.asp
>
> http://www.msnbc.com/news/958646.asp

However, if mercury somehow makes one more susceptible to whatever causes
autism, you can still end up with more boys than girls affected.

Either way, the people who believe that autism is caused by vaccines have
yet to provide much evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. In addition,
there is very convincing evidence that autism is not caused by vaccines,
including developmental neuroscience, pathology and immunology.

Jeff

[Kathy Cole]

On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:49:55 GMT, Peter Bowditch
> wrote:

> Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue.

Just because it's been pointed out to them as untrue doesn't mean they
accept it as untrue, unfortunately.

[Roger Schlafly]

> http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
> From the article...
> "In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
> Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from
1971
> to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the first
> country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.

So is Denmark going to put thimerosal back in the vaccines? No.

Notice how Denmark is about 8 years ahead of the USA on this
issue. It is probably because vaccines are voluntary in Denmark.

[PF Riley]

On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 18:57:48 -0400, Kathy Cole >
wrote:

>On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 00:49:55 GMT, Peter Bowditch
> wrote:
>
>> Because I see them cite things which they know to be untrue.
>
>Just because it's been pointed out to them as untrue doesn't mean they
>accept it as untrue, unfortunately.

Something simple such as the fact that MMR does not and has never had
thimerosal is not subject to debate or belief. It is a simple matter
of fact. Thimerosal would ruin the cell cultures in which the live
virus vaccine is created.

PF

[Roger Schlafly]

"PF Riley" > wrote
> Something simple such as the fact that MMR does not and has never had
> thimerosal is not subject to debate or belief. It is a simple matter

Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
that goes into kids.

[Eric Bohlman]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in
. net:

> "PF Riley" > wrote
>> Something simple such as the fact that MMR does not and has never had
>> thimerosal is not subject to debate or belief. It is a simple matter
>
> Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
> People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
> that goes into kids.

Which excuses statements that the thimerosal in MMR causes autism exactly
how?

[Jeff]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
t...
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
> > From the article...
> > "In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
> > Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from
> 1971
> > to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the
first
> > country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.
>
> So is Denmark going to put thimerosal back in the vaccines? No.
>
> Notice how Denmark is about 8 years ahead of the USA on this
> issue. It is probably because vaccines are voluntary in Denmark.

Being a mind-reader again, Roger?

There is no law that makes vaccine mandatory in the US, either.

Jeff

[Kathy Cole]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:42:35 GMT, (PF Riley) wrote:

> Something simple such as the fact that MMR does not and has never had
> thimerosal is not subject to debate or belief. It is a simple matter
> of fact. Thimerosal would ruin the cell cultures in which the live
> virus vaccine is created.

I recognize this, you recognize this, and the other rational people
recognize this. That doesn't seem to slow the loonies down.

[Mark Probert]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mark Probert" > wrote in message
> . net...
> >
> > "Jeff" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Mark Probert" > wrote in message
> > > et...
> > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
> > > >
> > > > From the article...
> > > >
> > > > "In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team
> of
> > > > Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country
from
> > > 1971
> > > > to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the
> > first
> > > > country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.
> > > >
> > > > Rather, autism diagnoses continued to skyrocket on the same
trajectory
> > > that
> > > > began in the late 1980's, rising from less than one case per 10,000
> > Danish
> > > > youngsters in 1990 to more than three a decade later."
> > > >
> > > > The article points out how the anti-mercury/vaccinationistas
attempted
> > to
> > > > discount the findings, and were shown to be wrong.
> > > >
> > > > Oh well, the anti-vac liars will have to cook up some new whacko
> ideas.
> > >
> > > I don't think most of the anti-vaccination people are liars. They
> believe
> > > what they say.
> > >
> > > However, this articles demonstrates another line of evidence that
> vaccines
> > > do not cause autism. The article certainly does not prove it. But
this,
> > > along with many scientific studies clearly demonstrates that neither
> > mercury
> > > nor vaccines contribute the rise of autism and that mercury and
vaccines
> > > cause very few, at most.
> > >
> > > Sadly, the people who so much want to prevent autism are wasting so
many
> > > resources on this hypothesis which has practically been totally
> disproved.
> > > How sad that that these people don't put their energy to good use.
> >
> > Agreed. A Newsweek article pointed out that a study whowed that Autism
is
> > substantially more often found in boys. If boys and girls get equal
> amounts
> > of vaccines, then, there is another factor whic mitigates against the
> > vaccination claims.
> >
> > http://www.msnbc.com/news/959486.asp
> >
> > http://www.msnbc.com/news/958646.asp
>
> However, if mercury somehow makes one more susceptible to whatever causes
> autism, you can still end up with more boys than girls affected.
>
> Either way, the people who believe that autism is caused by vaccines have
> yet to provide much evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. In
addition,
> there is very convincing evidence that autism is not caused by vaccines,
> including developmental neuroscience, pathology and immunology.

I think you let the anti-vacs off too lightly. There has never been any
evidence showing that there is a causal link. None. Nada. What they use is,
as best conjecture or stupidity. At worst, outright lies.

[Mark Probert]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
t...
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
> > From the article...
> > "In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
> > Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from
> 1971
> > to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the
first
> > country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.
>
> So is Denmark going to put thimerosal back in the vaccines? No.
>
> Notice how Denmark is about 8 years ahead of the USA on this
> issue. It is probably because vaccines are voluntary in Denmark.

It sure does provide powerful evidecne that thiemrosal is not a problem. Of
course it will not be re-intoruduced as it would give the anti-vac liars
more fodder. AFAIC, they can starve.

[Peter Bowditch]

Kathy Cole > wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 05:42:35 GMT, (PF Riley) wrote:
>
>> Something simple such as the fact that MMR does not and has never had
>> thimerosal is not subject to debate or belief. It is a simple matter
>> of fact. Thimerosal would ruin the cell cultures in which the live
>> virus vaccine is created.
>
>I recognize this, you recognize this, and the other rational people
>recognize this. That doesn't seem to slow the loonies down.

Which is why I say that the people who keep repeating it are not
mistaken, they are lying.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

[Jonathan Smith]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message >...
> > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/04/health/04VACC.html
> > From the article...
> > "In the study, published this week in the journal Pediatrics, a team of
> > Danish doctors counted all the diagnoses of autism in the country from
> 1971
> > to 2000. They found no decrease after 1992, when Denmark became the first
> > country in the world to ban the preservative, thimerosal.
>
> So is Denmark going to put thimerosal back in the vaccines? No.
>
> Notice how Denmark is about 8 years ahead of the USA on this
> issue. It is probably because vaccines are voluntary in Denmark.

Vaccine coverage rates are as good or better than anywhere else in
Europe - seems voluntary is quite enough.

js

[Roger Schlafly]

"Eric Bohlman" > wrote
> > Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
> > People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
> > that goes into kids.
> Which excuses statements that the thimerosal in MMR causes autism exactly
> how?

What statements? I don't know what statements you are referring to,
but I think you missed the point. Most people don't like thimerosal in
vaccines, and they don't want it in any vaccines. US kids now get
about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't.

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts. Big deal. The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

[Jeff]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
. net...
> "Eric Bohlman" > wrote
> > > Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
> > > People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
> > > that goes into kids.
> > Which excuses statements that the thimerosal in MMR causes autism
exactly
> > how?
>
> What statements? I don't know what statements you are referring to,
> but I think you missed the point. Most people don't like thimerosal in
> vaccines, and they don't want it in any vaccines. US kids now get
> about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
> keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't.

You know, Roger, there is this neat thing called the "Internet." There is a
way of finding pages on the Internet called "Google." Forexample, with
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Now, please don't excuse someone attacking vaccines for having bad
information. If someone makes a claim, he should be able to back it up.

> Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
> of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
> misstatement of the facts.

Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was basing
his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

> Big deal.

Only if you consider honesty and facts important for an arguement.

> The fact is that thimerosal was being
> used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
> regulations.

Irrelevent. The arguement was that mercury from MMR causes autism.

In addition, the form of mercury in vaccines has never been shown to harm
any child in the quantities that used to be used in vaccines.

They were removed from most vaccines because theoretically, it seemed to be
a good idea, despite the lack of evidence that the thimerosal was harmful.

Jeff

[Jeff]

"Mark Probert" > wrote in message
. net...

(...)

> > However, if mercury somehow makes one more susceptible to whatever
causes
> > autism, you can still end up with more boys than girls affected.
> >
> > Either way, the people who believe that autism is caused by vaccines
have
> > yet to provide much evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. In
> addition,
> > there is very convincing evidence that autism is not caused by vaccines,
> > including developmental neuroscience, pathology and immunology.
>
> I think you let the anti-vacs off too lightly. There has never been any
> evidence showing that there is a causal link. None. Nada. What they use
is,
> as best conjecture or stupidity. At worst, outright lies.

There was sufficient evidence to form a hypothesis that vaccines cause
autism. In addition, the timing of autism and vaccines, while totally
coincidental, would support the hypothesis. However, the hypothesis has been
tested and found to be false.

In addition, a lot of the anitvacc's aren't rational. They just know their
kids or neighbor kids or grandkids were harmed by vaccines. Of course, it
was total coincidence and the signs of autism are clear in video tapes of
the kids before they got the shots. So I believe many antivacc's are
mislead, but well-meaning people.

Finally, I don't care what their motivation is. Attacking the people does no
good. The best thing, IMHO, is to educate people about the truth with real
evidence.

Jeff

[Roger Schlafly]

"Jeff" > wrote
> simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
> thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
> http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Send it to "ratbag" Peter.

> > Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
> > of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
> > misstatement of the facts.
> Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was
basing
> his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

And the fact is ...

> > The fact is that thimerosal was being
> > used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
> > regulations.

[Jeff]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
et...
> "Jeff" > wrote
> > simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out
how
> > thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
> > http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.
>
> Send it to "ratbag" Peter.

You stated "....US kids now get
about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't...."

And I responded: "You know, Roger, there is this neat thing called the
"Internet." There is a
way of finding pages on the Internet called "Google." Forexample, with
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm."

I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
thimerasol in them.

> > > Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
> > > of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
> > > misstatement of the facts.
> > Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was
> basing
> > his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.
>
> And the fact is ...
>
> > > The fact is that thimerosal was being
> > > used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
> > > regulations.

Thanks again for your editing my remarks without indicating that fact. You
show your true colors: Intellectual dishonesty.

Too bad you resort to weasal tactics instead of answering our concerns, like
that one that thimerosal in MMR was a key part of the arguement that
vaccines cause autism.

Jeff

[Roger Schlafly]

"Jeff" > wrote
> http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm."
> I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
> thimerasol in them.
> [usual ad hominem attack snipped]

The mercury stuff is called thimerosal, not thimerasol. I suggest that
you correct your own petty errors, before launching into an attack
on the petty and insignificant errors of others.

[Jeff]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
t...
> "Jeff" > wrote
> > http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm."
> > I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
> > thimerasol in them.
> > [usual ad hominem attack snipped]
>
> The mercury stuff is called thimerosal, not thimerasol. I suggest that
> you correct your own petty errors, before launching into an attack
> on the petty and insignificant errors of others.

Nice comeback. Basing an argument on thimerosal being in a particular
vaccine when it is not in that vaccine is not an "insignificant error."

And I am sorry that you think of my questioning your debating style
(changing the subject, failing to answer questions and failing to quote
significant parts of a previous post) as a ad hominem attack.

BTW, if attacking my spelling is the best you can come up with....

Jeff

[PF Riley]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:14:32 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:

>"Eric Bohlman" > wrote
>> > Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
>> > People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
>> > that goes into kids.
>> Which excuses statements that the thimerosal in MMR causes autism exactly
>> how?
>
>What statements? I don't know what statements you are referring to,
>but I think you missed the point. Most people don't like thimerosal in
>vaccines, and they don't want it in any vaccines. US kids now get
>about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
>keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't.

No, you missed the point. Bowditch responded specifically in this
thread, in which the original poster commented on anti-vac liars,
with: "At least once a month I see the 'MMR has mercury' lie." He was
not discussing mercury in vaccines in general. He was referring to the
specific, deliberate lie propagated by anti-vac morons that MMR has
thimerosal. It has nothing to do with your opinion on whether people
in general like thimerosal or not.

>Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
>of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
>misstatement of the facts. Big deal. The fact is that thimerosal was being
>used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
>regulations.

Here we go again prefacing a lie with "The fact is..."

Anyway, your dismissal of the "MMR has mercury" lie as a "slight and
inconsequential misstatement of facts" again betrays your ignorance
and stupidity as well as your tacit acknowledgement that it's OK to
lie about vaccines when tricking people into not getting them. When
people decide not to get MMR because they think there is mercury in
it, and measles rises up and kill people, it's not "inconsequential."
And when someone deliberately makes a claim that is wrong, it's not a
"misstatement of facts," it's a lie.

As to your claim that someone only "thinks" he found "an" example,
here's my response to John "whaleto" Scum-amore making the same stupid
claim over a year ago that, "Gee, no one really thinks MMR has mercury
or would say it does, right?" on a very similar thread as this one:

----------------

From: (PF Riley)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,misc.kids.health,sci.med
Subject: Re: Mayor of London advises parents to shun MMR jabs
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 20:24:00 GMT
Message-ID: >

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:43:33 +0000 (UTC), "john" >
wrote:
>
>"Peter Bowditch" > wrote in message
>> I have never claimed that the anti-vaccination liars "believe" that
>> MMR contains mercury. I have claimed that they "say" that MMR contains
>> mercury.
>
>I don't know of any vaccine activist claiming mmr contains mercury.

Well, now you do:


From <http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/MMR.htm>

"Most vaccines, including the MMR, contain ethyl mercury or
thimerosal, an organic neurotoxic mercury compound that is used as a
preservative."


From <http://www.linkny.com/~civitas/page220.html>

"The latter symptoms are the same as those of mercury poisoning, and
the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) vaccine contains thimerosal, a mercury
compound used as a preservative in MMR and other vaccines."


From
<http://www.doula-love.cityslide.com/articles/articles.cfm/477300>

"Besides its proposed link to autism, the combination MMR vaccine
contains thimerosal, a preservative that uses the toxic element
mercury as an active ingredient..."


From <http://www.nationalspeech.com/thimerosal.htm>

"Children receive a cocktail of vaccinations beginning at birth.
Most of these vaccines, such as Hepatitis B, Diphtheria, Tetanus,
Pertussis (DTaP), Haemophilis Influenzae Type b (Hib), and Measles,
Mumps, Rubella (MMR), are used as preventative measures of once deadly
diseases. However, these vaccines also contain the preservative
thimerosal, which is designed to minimize bacterial growth in the
vaccine."


>Is
>there a better way to advertise your ignorance and lose an argument than to
>claim that? It doesn't make any sense--just a lie you are spreading.

Are you going to take this back now? Admit that Bowditch was right?
And admit that you're ignorant of the ignorance of anti-vacs? (Or
maybe you're just pretending you didn't know?)

We're waiting.

PF

----------------

Or, Roger, how about this one from May:

----------------

From: (PF Riley)
Newsgroups: misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
Subject: Re: Still pushing bull
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 04:36:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID: >

On Thu, 29 May 2003 04:02:48 GMT, Mark Probert
> wrote:

>Can you Brits please recall him?
>
>Wakefield told the approximately 100 people attending the conference
>that his first encounter with an autistic child led him to question the
>conventional wisdom about the causes of autism. His subsequent research
>linked a mercury-containing preservative in the Measles-Mumps-Rubella,
>or MMR, vaccine with autism.
>
>http://www.wset.com/showstory.hrb?f=n&s=88632&f1=loc

There's more from that article:

"In the five years since he saw that first patient, Wakefield has
extensively studied bowel disease in children with autism. He has
identified an inflammatory condition that seems to be linked to the
MMR vaccine. MMR contains the preservative Thimerosal, which has the
toxic element mercury among its ingredients."

(For those who don't know: MMR does not contain thimerosal.)

PF Riley

"I don't know of any vaccine activist claiming mmr contains mercury.
Is there a better way to advertise your ignorance and lose an argument
than to claim that? It doesn't make any sense--just a lie you are
spreading."

-- John Scudamore, July 21, 2002

----------------

So, Roger, would you still claim that someone on this thread just
"thinks" he found one person who made a "misstatement" about MMR and
mercury? Does this answer your question I quoted at the very beginning
of this posting? Namely, "What statements? I don't know what
statements you are referring to..."

PF

[Roger Schlafly]

"PF Riley" > wrote
> No, you missed the point. Bowditch responded specifically in this
> thread, in which the original poster commented on anti-vac liars,
> with: "At least once a month I see the 'MMR has mercury' lie." He was
> not discussing mercury in vaccines in general.

Maybe he wasn't, but most of his sources were. Almost everybody
gets the full set of vaccines, or gets none of them. What difference
does it make which vaccines have thimerosal? If someone just wants
to put out some anti-vaccine propaganda, all he has to say is that
some of the vaccines have thimerosal.

It is much easier to find pro-vaccine propaganda that says that
there is no thimerosal in any of the vaccines any more. That is
also misinformation, as there is still some thimerosal in some of
the vaccines.

Bowditch gets all excited because he finds some trivial and
inconsequential misstatements in some fringe websites, while
he ignores larger errors in pro-vaccine sites.

[Kathy Cole]

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:54:00 GMT, Peter Bowditch
> wrote:

> Which is why I say that the people who keep repeating it are not
> mistaken, they are lying.

I think some are actively lying, while the others have their hands over
their ears repeating 'I'm not listening' over and over so they can't
hear you.

It's the flaming loony vs. malicious liar distinction. I don't know how
ultimately important it is, but I believe it's there.

[Jonathan Smith]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message >...
> "PF Riley" > wrote
> > No, you missed the point. Bowditch responded specifically in this
> > thread, in which the original poster commented on anti-vac liars,
> > with: "At least once a month I see the 'MMR has mercury' lie." He was
> > not discussing mercury in vaccines in general.
>
> Maybe he wasn't, but most of his sources were. Almost everybody
> gets the full set of vaccines, or gets none of them. What difference
> does it make which vaccines have thimerosal?

As a grandparent, it makes a difference to me. It makes a difference
to anyone who wants to be properly informed. It makes a difference to
anyone interested in vaccine policy. It doesn't seem to make a
difference to some who are a bit more zealous of their positions
against all vaccines, apparently.

> If someone just wants
> to put out some anti-vaccine propaganda, all he has to say is that
> some of the vaccines have thimerosal.

Half truths and innuendo....why not be a bit more informative? NVIC
uses this "generalization" and as such meets the fringe criterion?

> It is much easier to find pro-vaccine propaganda that says that
> there is no thimerosal in any of the vaccines any more.

Interesting - care to show us all how easy?

> That is
> also misinformation, as there is still some thimerosal in some of
> the vaccines.

Indeed there is. Most do not, in the US at least. A few do. That is
why specificity in information is relevant. And that answers your
question "What difference does it make which vaccines have
thimerosal?" With respect to thimerosal, there are NO routinely
recommended pediatric vaccines where a preservative free (or at
minimum a thimerosal free) formulation is not available. So users
have a choice and that is why the information is important and
relevant.

> Bowditch gets all excited because he finds some trivial and
> inconsequential misstatements in some fringe websites, while
> he ignores larger errors in pro-vaccine sites.

Hardly trivial, certainly not inconsequential but agreeably fringe.

CDC reports that "Today, all routinely recommended pediatric vaccines
manufactured for the U.S. market contain no thimerosal or only trace
amounts."

"Influenza (flu) vaccine from some manufacturers still contains
thimerosal."

"With the newly formulated vaccines, the maximum cumulative exposure
during the first six months of life will now be less than three
micrograms of mercury."

And in case you want to argue that the CDC is not pro-vaccine - read
your own website:

"The CDC gives a wealth of information, but also slants it to favor
its vaccine policies."

Now, what about anti-vacs?

http://www.thimerosal-news.com/html/info.html

This webpage, last updated in February, 2003, contains this
information:

"While mercury levels that children and infants are exposed to have
been reduced, they are still being exposed to potentially toxic levels
of mercury. As well, any children who received thimerosal-containing
vaccines before the levels of thimerosal were reduced or removed are
potentially at risk for the aforementioned health risks.

Two new hepatitis B vaccine products and a new Hib product are being
developed that will be entirely thimerosal-free. One of the four
licensed DTaP vaccines is already thimerosal free, and at least one
other thimerosal free DTaP vaccine is anticipated to be licensed by
early 2001. Thus, the likely exposure of thimerosal that an infant is
exposed to should go down by some 60% by 2001."


and here's something from the Well Being Journal Vol. 10, No. 3 ~
Summer 2001. MMR Vaccine and Autism by Barbara Brewitt, Ph.D., and H.
Lynn Amsbury, M.D.

http://www.wellbeingjournal.com

"The live measles is known to suppress the immune system with the
measles having many similarities to HIV. It must be asked if it is
worth the risk of injecting children with immature immune systems with
MMR vaccines that contain living viruses and toxic mercury-containing
additives (thimerosal)."

NVIC's website perpetuates the myth by their link to a BBC interview
in which one anti-vac states that MMR contains mercury.

NVIC includes this statement:

"While today, most, but not all, infant vaccines are mercury-free. The
preservative is still added to formulations for influenza (flu
vaccines), diphtheria-tetanus, tetanus, hepatitis B, pneumococcal and
rabies. This year the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) recommended
for the first time that healthy children receive influenza vaccine. No
influenza vaccines are available that are completely mercury-free,
although two brands only contain trace amounts."

Contrasts.

js

[Jonathan Smith]

"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message >...
> "Jeff" > wrote
> > http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm."
> > I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
> > thimerasol in them.
> > [usual ad hominem attack snipped]
>
> The mercury stuff is called thimerosal, not thimerasol. I suggest that
> you correct your own petty errors, before launching into an attack
> on the petty and insignificant errors of others.

Here is a very interesting site. Note the spelling of the mercury
compound AND the allegation regarding it's presence in MMR.

"Recently it has been widely publicized that thimerasol, a
mercury-based preservative used in the Mumps-Measles-Ruebella (MMR)
vaccine, may at least partly contribute to the increase in the number
of autism cases reported each year."

http://www.geocities.com/connectingthedots_2002/autismrise.html

js

[PF Riley]

On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:42:13 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:

>"PF Riley" > wrote
>> No, you missed the point. Bowditch responded specifically in this
>> thread, in which the original poster commented on anti-vac liars,
>> with: "At least once a month I see the 'MMR has mercury' lie." He was
>> not discussing mercury in vaccines in general.
>
>Maybe he wasn't, but most of his sources were. Almost everybody
>gets the full set of vaccines, or gets none of them. What difference
>does it make which vaccines have thimerosal? If someone just wants
>to put out some anti-vaccine propaganda, all he has to say is that
>some of the vaccines have thimerosal.

No, go back and read the websites I quoted. Some of them specifically
"explain" that autism is a form of mercury poisoning, MMR has mercury,
so therefore MMR causes autism.

PF

[PF Riley]

On 9 Sep 2003 08:26:26 -0700, (Jonathan
Smith) wrote:

>"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message >...
>
>> It is much easier to find pro-vaccine propaganda that says that
>> there is no thimerosal in any of the vaccines any more.
>
>Interesting - care to show us all how easy?

Yes, Roger, please.

>> That is
>> also misinformation, as there is still some thimerosal in some of
>> the vaccines.
>
>Indeed there is. Most do not, in the US at least. A few do. That is
>why specificity in information is relevant. And that answers your
>question "What difference does it make which vaccines have
>thimerosal?" With respect to thimerosal, there are NO routinely
>recommended pediatric vaccines where a preservative free (or at
>minimum a thimerosal free) formulation is not available. So users
>have a choice and that is why the information is important and
>relevant.

Touche.

[Remainder of excellent posting deleted.]

PF

[HCN]

"PF Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:42:13 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
....> No, go back and read the websites I quoted. Some of them specifically
> "explain" that autism is a form of mercury poisoning, MMR has mercury,
> so therefore MMR causes autism.
>
> PF

I was poking about tonight trying to see if some lawyers had removed their
lawsuits alleging thimerosal caused autism after the most recent study that
is in the thread title... and I found this:
http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2178 which says: "Many parents and
researchers believe that much of this autism was caused by the mercury
preservative thimerosal, which was until recently put into the childhood
vaccine for Measles, Mumps and Rubella (German Measles) known as MMR."

One interesting thing I found while poking around was that many sites had no
"Breaking News!" more recent than May 2003... I guess I should give them
more time, it is only September:
http://www.thimerosal-news.com/

[HCN]

"HCN" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "PF Riley" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:42:13 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> ...> No, go back and read the websites I quoted. Some of them specifically
> > "explain" that autism is a form of mercury poisoning, MMR has mercury,
> > so therefore MMR causes autism.
> >
> > PF
>
> I was poking about tonight trying to see if some lawyers had removed their
> lawsuits alleging thimerosal caused autism after the most recent study
that
> is in the thread title... and I found this:
> http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2178 which says: "Many parents
and
> researchers believe that much of this autism was caused by the mercury
> preservative thimerosal, which was until recently put into the childhood
> vaccine for Measles, Mumps and Rubella (German Measles) known as MMR."
>
> One interesting thing I found while poking around was that many sites had
no
> "Breaking News!" more recent than May 2003... I guess I should give them
> more time, it is only September:
> http://www.thimerosal-news.com/

And as I poked about some more... I found these guys (who seem to get quoted
a bunch... who did withdraw their ritalin lawsuit after a while)... their
LAST "press release" is May of 200*2*!!!!:
http://www.autismfraud.com/press_releases_page.htm

anyone placing bets on when the autism/thimerosal/mmr lawsuits will be
withdrawn or dismissed?

[Mark Probert]

"HCN" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "HCN" > wrote in message
> et...
> >
> > "PF Riley" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 08:42:13 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> > ...> No, go back and read the websites I quoted. Some of them
specifically
> > > "explain" that autism is a form of mercury poisoning, MMR has mercury,
> > > so therefore MMR causes autism.
> > >
> > > PF
> >
> > I was poking about tonight trying to see if some lawyers had removed
their
> > lawsuits alleging thimerosal caused autism after the most recent study
> that
> > is in the thread title... and I found this:
> > http://www.unknowncountry.com/news/?id=2178 which says: "Many parents
> and
> > researchers believe that much of this autism was caused by the mercury
> > preservative thimerosal, which was until recently put into the childhood
> > vaccine for Measles, Mumps and Rubella (German Measles) known as MMR."
> >
> > One interesting thing I found while poking around was that many sites
had
> no
> > "Breaking News!" more recent than May 2003... I guess I should give them
> > more time, it is only September:
> > http://www.thimerosal-news.com/
>
> And as I poked about some more... I found these guys (who seem to get
quoted
> a bunch... who did withdraw their ritalin lawsuit after a while)... their
> LAST "press release" is May of 200*2*!!!!:
> http://www.autismfraud.com/press_releases_page.htm
>
> anyone placing bets on when the autism/thimerosal/mmr lawsuits will be
> withdrawn or dismissed?

There were 5 ritalin suits, the first two(?) were dismissed on motions by
the defendants where the judges ruled that the plaintiffs failed to state an
appropriate cause of action. The last (3?) were dismessed at the request of
the plaintiffs as they saw the writing on the walls.

What is interesting is that there has been no follow-up actions at all. When
the suits were active, the anti-science know nothings were claiming that the
even if the initial suits lost there would be more, as there had been in the
tobacco cases.

I suspect that the suits in the MMR/Autism cases will follow suit, as soon
as the judges get a clue that the premise is entirely bogus.

[CBI]

"PF Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On 9 Sep 2003 08:26:26 -0700, (Jonathan
> Smith) wrote:
>
> >"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
>...
> >
> >> It is much easier to find pro-vaccine propaganda that says that
> >> there is no thimerosal in any of the vaccines any more.
> >
> >Interesting - care to show us all how easy?
>
> Yes, Roger, please.

Apparently it is not that easy.