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Theta
September 21st 03, 12:50 AM
ADHD is diagnosed by "professionals" who form their opinion by
observing a child's behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests,
or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis. The problem
with this is there are many other problems that have the same symptoms
of ADHD. Many parents, because of not knowing, settle for ADHD as a
diagnosis before looking at everything. For example, any problem
dealing with the fuels of the body: water, food, blood and air can
cause behavior problems. Water, food, blood and air to the body are
just like gas and oil to a car. If you put bad gas or have old or the
wrong oil in your car, it will act up just like a child acts up when
eating foods they are allergic to, drinking or breathing contaminated
water or air or having blood disorders.

There are also many medical, biological, emotional and mental
conditions that mimic ADHD also. For those who are searching for
reasons behind their child's behavior, here are some possibilities.
Only settle for the diagnosis of ADHD after checking out all of these
problems and many more.

http://adhdparentssupportgroup.homestead.com/50conditionsmimicingADHD.html

For information on ADD/ADHD, medications, clinical trials and more,
visit http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters/addadhd.msnw


--
Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda
http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters

"If you don't control your mind, someone else will." - John Allston.

Eric Bohlman
September 21st 03, 01:21 AM
(Theta) wrote in
om:

> ADHD is diagnosed by "professionals" who form their opinion by
> observing a child's behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests,
> or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis. The problem
> with this is there are many other problems that have the same symptoms
> of ADHD. Many parents, because of not knowing, settle for ADHD as a

For *any* medical condition, there are many other problems that have the
same symptoms as it. That's why physicians use differential diagnosis
rather than just jumping on the first thing that matches. That's why the
medical records a physician keeps are expected to show a differential when
he diagnoses a patient with a condition.

If a physician is diagnosing ADHD without ruling out other causes of the
patient's symptoms, he's not following a legally appropriate standard of
care.

> diagnosis before looking at everything. For example, any problem
> dealing with the fuels of the body: water, food, blood and air can
> cause behavior problems. Water, food, blood and air to the body are
> just like gas and oil to a car. If you put bad gas or have old or the
> wrong oil in your car, it will act up just like a child acts up when
> eating foods they are allergic to, drinking or breathing contaminated
> water or air or having blood disorders.

But a physician is not required to include in the differential explanations
that have been disproven. There's no evidence that any of the things you
mentioned can cause ADHD-type symptoms.

Roger Schlafly
September 21st 03, 01:54 AM
"Theta" > wrote
> ADHD is diagnosed by "professionals" who form their opinion by
> observing a child's behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests,
> or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis. ...

No, they don't even do that. The official guidelines say that the
diagnosis is supposed to based on home and school settings, and
the physician is not likely to make any observations there. He bases
the diagnosis on 2nd-hand or 3rd-hand accounts of that behavior,
as reported by a parent or a teacher.

Mark D Morin
September 21st 03, 02:15 AM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 00:54:20 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:

>"Theta" > wrote
>> ADHD is diagnosed by "professionals" who form their opinion by
>> observing a child's behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests,
>> or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis. ...
>
>No, they don't even do that. The official guidelines say that the
>diagnosis is supposed to based on home and school settings, and
>the physician is not likely to make any observations there. He bases
>the diagnosis on 2nd-hand or 3rd-hand accounts of that behavior,
>as reported by a parent or a teacher.
>

When I go in for a blood test, the physician does not examine my
blood. S/he relies on the second or third hand summaries from a
technician.

================================================== ==
You fool yourself if you imagine what you or others
say about others is their problem, rather than your
problem.

You can trash people all you want, but your trashing
them isn't, in itself, a problem for them.
Linda Gore 08/06/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Roger Schlafly
September 21st 03, 05:09 AM
"Mark D Morin" > wrote
> >No, they don't even do that. The official guidelines say that the
> >diagnosis is supposed to based on home and school settings, and
> >the physician is not likely to make any observations there. He bases
> >the diagnosis on 2nd-hand or 3rd-hand accounts of that behavior,
> >as reported by a parent or a teacher.
> When I go in for a blood test, the physician does not examine my
> blood. S/he relies on the second or third hand summaries from a
> technician.

Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
and uses objective criteria.

Mark D Morin
September 21st 03, 12:24 PM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 04:09:39 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:

>"Mark D Morin" > wrote
>> >No, they don't even do that. The official guidelines say that the
>> >diagnosis is supposed to based on home and school settings, and
>> >the physician is not likely to make any observations there. He bases
>> >the diagnosis on 2nd-hand or 3rd-hand accounts of that behavior,
>> >as reported by a parent or a teacher.
>> When I go in for a blood test, the physician does not examine my
>> blood. S/he relies on the second or third hand summaries from a
>> technician.
>
>Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>and uses objective criteria.

no less well trained than teachers and the tests are no more
objective. I take it you've never had the same sample retested with
differing results? I also take it that you have never seen any of the
tests administered to someone suspected of having ADHD.
>

================================================== ==
The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
before we use it, we'll never use anything,
because we'll never have absolute understanding.
David Wright 9/20/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Mark Probert
September 21st 03, 02:48 PM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
. net...
> "Theta" > wrote
> > ADHD is diagnosed by "professionals" who form their opinion by
> > observing a child's behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests,
> > or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis. ...
>
> No, they don't even do that. The official guidelines say that the
> diagnosis is supposed to based on home and school settings, and
> the physician is not likely to make any observations there. He bases
> the diagnosis on 2nd-hand or 3rd-hand accounts of that behavior,
> as reported by a parent or a teacher.

You are such an idiot.

First of, there are THREE "official" guidelines:

1. The DSM
2. The diagnostic protocol as published on the AAP website
3. The treatment protocol as published on the AAP website.

One thig is for sure, you sure do have a bad case of Posting Partial Facts
Disorder.

Mike Gormez
September 21st 03, 04:22 PM
Don't get fooled folks, 'theta' is a posting Scientology inspired
crap. After he failed to post his BS in alt.religion.scientolgy and
getting away with it he has been on a search for newsgroups where he
and the UFO nut cult (www.xenu.net) aren't that well known.

FYI: Scientology says that there aren't any mental illnesses. It is
all 'spritual'. And they are force to sign such a statement as well.


Recently new Scientology contracts emerged after one of their members
died (lisa.whyaretheydead.net) under their care and they want to
protect themselves better against prosecution. Ask yourself if you
would sign this:

"It is my strongly held religious belief that all mental problems are
spiritual in nature and that there is no such thing as a mentally
incompetent person-- only those suffering from spiritual upset of one
kind or another dramatized by an individual. I reject all psychiatric
labels and intend for this Contract to clearly memorialize my desire
to be helped exclusively through religious, spiritual means and not
through any form of psychiatric treatment, specifically including
involuntary commitment based on so-called lack of competence. Under no
circumstances, at any time, do I wish to be denied my right to care
from members of my religion to the exclusion of psychiatric care or
psychiatric directed care, regardless of what any psychiatrist,
medical person, designated member of the state or family member may
assert supposedly on my behalf."

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/dst/www/Scientology/ReleaseForms/Introspection-Release.html


Mike Gormez
--
http://whyaretheydead.net

Jeff
September 21st 03, 08:24 PM
"Theta" > wrote in message
om...
> ADHD is diagnosed by "professionals" who form their opinion by
> observing a child's behavior.

From observing a child's behavior, the behavior of other children who are at
the same developmental level, reports from parents and teachers, and often,
evaluation by a child psychologist or other professional. In addition, other
problems that look like ADHD are ruled.\

> There are no brain scans, blood tests,
> or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis.

There is nothing definite that is used to diagnose Alzhiemer's or
Parkinson's or depression.

There are, however, well established criteria to determine whether or not a
child or adult has ADHD.

> The problem
> with this is there are many other problems that have the same symptoms
> of ADHD. Many parents, because of not knowing, settle for ADHD as a
> diagnosis before looking at everything.

No, the criteria specifically state that other causes of behavior that looks
like ADHD have to be ruled otu.

> For example, any problem
> dealing with the fuels of the body: water, food, blood and air can
> cause behavior problems. Water, food, blood and air to the body are
> just like gas and oil to a car.

Horrible anlaogy. Food is like gas to a car. Air is like air to a car (both
are used to oxidize the fuel, whether peanut butter and jelly or gasoline).
Water and blood have no analogy with a car.

> If you put bad gas or have old or the
> wrong oil in your car, it will act up just like a child acts up when
> eating foods they are allergic to, drinking or breathing contaminated
> water or air or having blood disorders.

Except that there is very little evidence that food alergies or food
reactions cause hyperactivity. Or problems with concentrating.

> There are also many medical, biological, emotional and mental
> conditions that mimic ADHD also. For those who are searching for
> reasons behind their child's behavior, here are some possibilities.
> Only settle for the diagnosis of ADHD after checking out all of these
> problems and many more.

True. Good doctors always look for other conditions before making a
diagnosis of ADHD.

> http://adhdparentssupportgroup.homestead.com/50conditionsmimicingADHD.html

Actually, the list is inaccurate. For example, it describe the spinal cord
incorrectly connected to the brain. The is no such thing. Here is a better
list:

http://www.fpnotebook.com/PED69.htm

> For information on ADD/ADHD, medications, clinical trials and more,
> visit http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters/addadhd.msnw

Actually, I think there are far better sites:

http://www.chadd.org/
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/adhdmenu.cfm

> --
> Decoding Psychiatric Propaganda
> http://groups.msn.com/psychbusters
>
> "If you don't control your mind, someone else will." - John Allston.

Jeff
September 21st 03, 08:26 PM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Mark D Morin" > wrote
> > >No, they don't even do that. The official guidelines say that the
> > >diagnosis is supposed to based on home and school settings, and
> > >the physician is not likely to make any observations there. He bases
> > >the diagnosis on 2nd-hand or 3rd-hand accounts of that behavior,
> > >as reported by a parent or a teacher.
> > When I go in for a blood test, the physician does not examine my
> > blood. S/he relies on the second or third hand summaries from a
> > technician.
>
> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> and uses objective criteria.

So are teachers. And the diagnosis requires impairments from two or more
areas, including school and home.

SumBuny
September 21st 03, 08:31 PM
"Theta" > wrote in message
om...
> Only settle for the diagnosis of ADHD after checking out all of these
> problems and many more.


One piece of sound advice...many of us *have* been diagnosed ADHD after
everything else was ruled out....

....yet still seem to get lambasted for "drugging" our kids and for being
ADHD (when we are contantly told there is no such thing)....any advice on
that?

Buny

SumBuny
September 21st 03, 08:33 PM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
. net...
> "Theta" > wrote
> > ADHD is diagnosed by "professionals" who form their opinion by
> > observing a child's behavior. There are no brain scans, blood tests,
> > or anything else definite that is used during diagnosis. ...
>
> No, they don't even do that. The official guidelines say that the
> diagnosis is supposed to based on home and school settings, and
> the physician is not likely to make any observations there. He bases
> the diagnosis on 2nd-hand or 3rd-hand accounts of that behavior,
> as reported by a parent or a teacher.


What about those who are diagnosed after full Functional Behavioral
Assessment, done not only by teachers, but by psychologists, behaviorists,
therapists? or is this not "suficient" witnesses to share information with
the child's psychiatrist for diagnosis?

Buny

jake
September 21st 03, 08:45 PM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
wrote:
>
>> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> and uses objective criteria.
>
>So are teachers.

What planet do YOU live on?

http://shorterlink.com/?7RQSJL

MR. SINCLAIR (HISTORY): I started drinking in my car in 1994. I would
roll up the windows and sit in the east side of the parking lot. In
the last space. There was coffee in the one, older thermos and scotch
in the other, newer one. I was caught later that year. But...I would
say that I definitely stopped caring soon after that.

MR. KEROMAN (MATHEMATICS): Early on. Second semester of my first year.

MR. PAPPAS (SOCIAL STUDIES): Once I was on this strange acne
medication. It was making me feel completely different from how I
usually, which is fine. It came to a head one day when I was
chaperoning a field trip to the Museum of Natural History. I was
feeling strange and I got off the bus and for some reason started
crying because I wasn’t on the bus any longer. I didn’t want to go
into the school, but I did. And they were looking at me, the kids on
my field trip. And I felt shame. That was the beginning of something.

MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
out on the field in September and that’s when the geese droppings
aren’t completely frozen yet, but they aren’t so wet that they just
leak into the field. They’re solid. It’ late November when they
actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
(pause) Yeah, but I guess that’s the moment.


These teachers are real.

jake
September 21st 03, 08:53 PM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:31:48 -0500, "SumBuny"
> wrote:

>
>"Theta" > wrote in message
om...
>> Only settle for the diagnosis of ADHD after checking out all of these
>> problems and many more.
>
>
>One piece of sound advice...many of us *have* been diagnosed ADHD after
>everything else was ruled out....

the most vociferous advocates of drugging other peoples children seem
NOT have been however..but are professionals with a vested interest..



>
>...yet still seem to get lambasted for "drugging" our kids and for being
>ADHD


odd
I have never seen anyone lambasted for "being ADHD"

(when we are contantly told there is no such thing)....any advice on
>that?

as you are fully aware the diagnosis is contentious..

SumBuny
September 21st 03, 09:08 PM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:31:48 -0500, "SumBuny"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Theta" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> Only settle for the diagnosis of ADHD after checking out all of these
> >> problems and many more.
> >
> >
> >One piece of sound advice...many of us *have* been diagnosed ADHD after
> >everything else was ruled out....
>
> the most vociferous advocates of drugging other peoples children seem
> NOT have been however..but are professionals with a vested interest..


There are those who insist that the very medical professionals that diagnose
ADHD *after* ruling out other things are the same "vociferous advocates of
drugging other people's children"....

<sigh> Those of us dealing with ADHD (or family members with it) cannot
"win" that argument...

>
>
>
> >
> >...yet still seem to get lambasted for "drugging" our kids and for being
> >ADHD
>
>
> odd
> I have never seen anyone lambasted for "being ADHD"
>
> (when we are contantly told there is no such thing)....any advice on
> >that?
>
> as you are fully aware the diagnosis is contentious..

That "contention" is what seems to fuel those who constantly insist that we
are not ADHD, we are "lazy, crazy, stupid, enabling, etc"...that is what I
meant by being lambasted for being ADHD...

Buny

Jeff
September 21st 03, 09:08 PM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
> >
> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >
> >So are teachers.
>
> What planet do YOU live on?

Planet earth.

Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really care
about students.

Jeff

jake
September 21st 03, 09:37 PM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:08:13 -0500, "SumBuny"
> wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:31:48 -0500, "SumBuny"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Theta" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> >> Only settle for the diagnosis of ADHD after checking out all of these
>> >> problems and many more.
>> >
>> >
>> >One piece of sound advice...many of us *have* been diagnosed ADHD after
>> >everything else was ruled out....
>>
>> the most vociferous advocates of drugging other peoples children seem
>> NOT have been however..but are professionals with a vested interest..
>
>
>There are those who insist that the very medical professionals that diagnose
>ADHD *after* ruling out other things are the same "vociferous advocates of
>drugging other people's children"....

In my experience FWIMBW..on alt.support.attn-deficit that they are
NOT medical professionals seems to be the bone of contention ..

that is at the root ..I guess..
It seems to be a "dustbin classification" Dxed when nothing else is
found.

>
><sigh> Those of us dealing with ADHD (or family members with it) cannot
>"win" that argument...

its a perennial..I guess
Nobody can "win" but you seem to hold your corner..

>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> >...yet still seem to get lambasted for "drugging" our kids and for being
>> >ADHD
>>
>>
>> odd
>> I have never seen anyone lambasted for "being ADHD"
>>
>> (when we are contantly told there is no such thing)....any advice on
>> >that?
>>
>> as you are fully aware the diagnosis is contentious..
>
>That "contention" is what seems to fuel those who constantly insist that we
>are not ADHD, we are "lazy, crazy, stupid, enabling, etc"...that is what I
>meant by being lambasted for being ADHD...

In RL or on usenet?
as you are probably aware.. its par for the course on usenet in most
arenas..certainly this one where your crew never tire calling people
stupid..etc

jake
September 21st 03, 10:58 PM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >
>> >So are teachers.
>>
>> What planet do YOU live on?
>
>Planet earth.
>
>Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really care
>about students.

I dont know about most
many are there going through the motions earning a living.
In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.

They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..


>
>Jeff
>

Jeff
September 21st 03, 11:12 PM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >
> >> >So are teachers.
> >>
> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >
> >Planet earth.
> >
> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really care
> >about students.
>
> I dont know about most
> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.

No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What they
need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along with
their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to do.

> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..

Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents and others about
how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.

I don't know anyone who engages in social engineering.

Jeff
>
> >
> >Jeff
> >
>

jake
September 21st 03, 11:31 PM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >
>> >> >So are teachers.
>> >>
>> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >
>> >Planet earth.
>> >
>> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really care
>> >about students.
>>
>> I dont know about most
>> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
>> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
>
>No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What they
>need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along with
>their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to do.

no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
everyday life



>> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>
>Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents

true..


> and others about
>how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.

its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..

they are there to teach children..
>
>I don't know anyone who engages in social engineering.

The Elves of Social Engineering
[Reprinted from Issues & Views Spring 1998]

http://www.issues-views.com/index.php/sect/1003/article/1053

The United States is not alone in its drive to destroy a once fine
education system. The elves of social engineering have been busily at
work in many lands, including the little nation of Guyana, on the
northern coast of South America. In 1976, in a determination to end
what it called a "dual system," the state abolished all schools other
than those run by the government. Successful Roman Catholic schools
and other private schools were forced to shut down, as the heavy hand
of government took over.

Fantasizing that it possessed more money than it did, the Guyana
government was never able to provide affordable quality education as
had the private schools. Guyana’s Stabroek News reports: "Sufficient
funds were never allocated, school buildings deteriorated, there was a
shortage of text books, teachers were underpaid and emigrated. From
having an educational system of the highest quality, Guyana collapsed
to a situation where its CXC [test scores] results are among the worst
in the region. Free education became a nightmare and those who could
afford it beat the system anyway, by paying for private lessons. So, a
dual system was effectively re-established."

Now, after causing unnecessary decline, the government is promoting
the re-opening of Catholic schools, and making scholarships available
to all Guyana children. The Stabroek News describes the gratitude
expressed by many in Guyana, and reports, "Ursuline nuns have a long
and distinguished tradition in education . . . their past experience
will be invaluable. The Sisters and the Church must be congratulated
on this public service." And a final interesting note: "The
deterioration of the educational system was probably a cause of more
emigration by anxious parents than any other single cause."

Back in the USA, the beat goes on as cities continue to struggle with
the consequences of court rulings imposed on them decades ago. In
Boston, city authorities are wrangling over ways to move the city back
to neighborhood schools and away from forced busing--without appearing
to do so. (Backtracking can be so embarrassing.)

In Indianapolis, there is a plan afoot to phase out court-ordered
busing "over the next 18 years." During this period, the elves will
busy themselves with strategies to force the races together by
meddling with housing patterns.

And a final piece of irony. After all that black elites and their
white liberal guardians did to rid the country of black-run public
schools, here is a move to bring things full circle, at least in
Akron, Ohio. Administrators of Akron’s Public School district are
contemplating plans for a pilot "Afrocentric elementary school" to
open in 1999. Akron’s Beacon Journal claims that the projected school
is part of Akron’s "strategic improvement plan," designed to "take the
district into the next century."

Afrocentric or not, when one considers all the well-functioning black
schools, especially throughout the South, that could have been
upgraded and revitalized, instead of shut down to blindly comply with
desegregation orders, the waste seems enormous. After years of an
educationally and morally bankrupt system, "separate but equal" is
looking good to a lot of people

Theta
September 21st 03, 11:52 PM
(Mike Gormez) wrote in message >...
> Don't get fooled folks, 'theta' is a posting Scientology inspired
> crap. After he failed to post his BS in alt.religion.scientolgy

Errrm...okay.....replace the words "failed to" with the word "didn't".
And...well, if you believe my opinions to be "BS" well that's your
right. :o)

As for the rest of your post...I'm sure it's very scary stuff. If I
cared then I'd challenge it. Unfortunately, this thread is about
ADD/ADHD, particularly underlying physical conditions that cause ADD
"symptoms". Would you like to join in and participate? I'd be
interested in your point of view on this issue.

Take care,
Mike

Jeff
September 22nd 03, 12:09 AM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So are teachers.
> >> >>
> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >> >
> >> >Planet earth.
> >> >
> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really
care
> >> >about students.
> >>
> >> I dont know about most
> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
> >
> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What they
> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
with
> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to do.
>
> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
> everyday life

It is not up to doctors or teachers whether or not medication may help a
child's problem. It is up to the parents.

It is the teachers' job to provide information to the parents and doctors
about the child's behavior, so the parents and doctors can understand what
is going on.

> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
> >
> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>
> true..
>
>
> > and others about
> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>
> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..

Physicians, psychologists and other health professionals, with the consent
of the parents, of course.

> they are there to teach children..
> >
> >I don't know anyone who engages in social engineering.

I don't even know what you mean by social engineering.

Illegally copied copyright material deleted.

Jeff

Mark D Morin
September 22nd 03, 12:45 AM
On 21 Sep 2003 15:52:42 -0700, (Theta) wrote:

(Mike Gormez) wrote in message >...
>> Don't get fooled folks, 'theta' is a posting Scientology inspired
>> crap. After he failed to post his BS in alt.religion.scientolgy
>
>Errrm...okay.....replace the words "failed to" with the word "didn't".
>And...well, if you believe my opinions to be "BS" well that's your
>right. :o)
>
>As for the rest of your post...I'm sure it's very scary stuff. If I
>cared then I'd challenge it. Unfortunately, this thread is about
>ADD/ADHD, particularly underlying physical conditions that cause ADD
>"symptoms". Would you like to join in and participate? I'd be
>interested in your point of view on this issue.

If you add the word "can" before "cause" you are more accurate. But
that's conceding that ADHD can cause symptoms of ADHD.

================================================== ==
The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
before we use it, we'll never use anything,
because we'll never have absolute understanding.
David Wright 9/20/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

jake
September 22nd 03, 12:47 AM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:09:40 -0400, "Jeff" >
wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >So are teachers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >> >
>> >> >Planet earth.
>> >> >
>> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really
>care
>> >> >about students.
>> >>
>> >> I dont know about most
>> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
>> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
>> >
>> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What they
>> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
>with
>> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to do.
>>
>> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
>> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
>> everyday life
>
>It is not up to doctors or teachers whether or not medication may help a
>child's problem.

I agree wholeheartedly


>It is up to the parents.

yet children have been threatened with the loss of their children for
refusing to give their childen Ritalin..




>
>It is the teachers' job to provide information to the parents and doctors
>about the child's behavior, so the parents and doctors can understand what
>is going on.
>
>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>> >
>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>
>> true..
>>
>>
>> > and others about
>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>
>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>
>Physicians, psychologists and other health professionals, with the consent
>of the parents, of course.

well thaty is the point isn't it?
whose agent IS the teacher?

The parents?..the child?...The State?..Social Workers?..Health
Services..
the list grows almost daily...

None of it has anything to do with educating the child




>> they are there to teach children..
>> >
>> >I don't know anyone who engages in social engineering.
>
>I don't even know what you mean by social engineering.

If you read the article instead of playing netKop you might have had a
clue..



>Illegally copied copyright material deleted.

I am advised it is "fair usage" and perfectly legal and acceptable

Jeff
September 22nd 03, 01:00 AM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:09:40 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff"
>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine
blood,
> >> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >So are teachers.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Planet earth.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they
really
> >care
> >> >> >about students.
> >> >>
> >> >> I dont know about most
> >> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
> >> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> >> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
> >> >
> >> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What
they
> >> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
> >with
> >> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to
do.
> >>
> >> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
> >> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
> >> everyday life
> >
> >It is not up to doctors or teachers whether or not medication may help a
> >child's problem.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly
>
>
> >It is up to the parents.
>
> yet children have been threatened with the loss of their children for
> refusing to give their childen Ritalin..
>
>
>
>
> >
> >It is the teachers' job to provide information to the parents and doctors
> >about the child's behavior, so the parents and doctors can understand
what
> >is going on.
> >
> >> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
> >> >
> >> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
> >>
> >> true..
> >>
> >>
> >> > and others about
> >> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
> >>
> >> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
> >
> >Physicians, psychologists and other health professionals, with the
consent
> >of the parents, of course.
>
> well thaty is the point isn't it?
> whose agent IS the teacher?
>
> The parents?..the child?...The State?..Social Workers?..Health
> Services..
> the list grows almost daily...
>
> None of it has anything to do with educating the child

Gee, a student who is not able to pay attention? Helping the child and
family find out why does not have anything to do with educating the child?

>
> >> they are there to teach children..
> >> >
> >> >I don't know anyone who engages in social engineering.
> >
> >I don't even know what you mean by social engineering.
>
> If you read the article instead of playing netKop you might have had a
> clue..
>
>
>
> >Illegally copied copyright material deleted.
>
> I am advised it is "fair usage" and perfectly legal and acceptable

Who advised you it is "fair usage" to copy an entire story from a web page?

Jeff

Markus Probertus
September 22nd 03, 02:14 PM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
> >
> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >
> >So are teachers.
>
> What planet do YOU live on?
>
> http://shorterlink.com/?7RQSJL
>
> MR. SINCLAIR (HISTORY): I started drinking in my car in 1994. I would
> roll up the windows and sit in the east side of the parking lot. In
> the last space. There was coffee in the one, older thermos and scotch
> in the other, newer one. I was caught later that year. But...I would
> say that I definitely stopped caring soon after that.
>
> MR. KEROMAN (MATHEMATICS): Early on. Second semester of my first year.
>
> MR. PAPPAS (SOCIAL STUDIES): Once I was on this strange acne
> medication. It was making me feel completely different from how I
> usually, which is fine. It came to a head one day when I was
> chaperoning a field trip to the Museum of Natural History. I was
> feeling strange and I got off the bus and for some reason started
> crying because I wasn't on the bus any longer. I didn't want to go
> into the school, but I did. And they were looking at me, the kids on
> my field trip. And I felt shame. That was the beginning of something.
>
> MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
> out on the field in September and that's when the geese droppings
> aren't completely frozen yet, but they aren't so wet that they just
> leak into the field. They're solid. It' late November when they
> actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
> slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
> even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
> these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
> a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
> I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
> (pause) Yeah, but I guess that's the moment.
>
>
> These teachers are real.

I am married to a teacher, any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.

BTW, Jan taught sandbox 101.

Markus Probertus
September 22nd 03, 02:19 PM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >
> >> >So are teachers.
> >>
> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >
> >Planet earth.
> >
> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really care
> >about students.
>
> I dont know about most
> many are there going through the motions earning a living.

Hogwash, Jake. With the economy as it is now, a kid graduating Mediocre
University with a 2.2 GPA in mathematics can get a job in private industry
earning $15,000 or more than the the starting teacher.

Most teachers I have met do care.

> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.

And that can be said for many diseases and disorders. It is a fallacious
argument.

> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..

They do not do so. What they do is report on their observations of the
childs behavior while the child is interacting witht heir peers and with
them. When asked to complete these questionnaires, many of them give a lot
of thought. My son's ped neuro exhibited one where the teacher went so far
as to hand write out three pages to help the student.

You're painting of this profession with such a broad brush of bile is sad.

Markus Probertus
September 22nd 03, 02:22 PM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So are teachers.
> >> >>
> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >> >
> >> >Planet earth.
> >> >
> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really
care
> >> >about students.
> >>
> >> I dont know about most
> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
> >
> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What they
> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
with
> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to do.
>
> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
> everyday life
>
>
>
> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
> >
> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>
> true..
>
>
> > and others about
> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>
> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>
> they are there to teach children..

Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
whomever can help the child learn.

Markus Probertus
September 22nd 03, 02:26 PM
"jake" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:09:40 -0400, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff"
>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine
blood,
> >> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >So are teachers.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Planet earth.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they
really
> >care
> >> >> >about students.
> >> >>
> >> >> I dont know about most
> >> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
> >> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> >> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
> >> >
> >> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What
they
> >> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
> >with
> >> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to
do.
> >>
> >> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
> >> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
> >> everyday life
> >
> >It is not up to doctors or teachers whether or not medication may help a
> >child's problem.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly
>
> >It is up to the parents.
>
> yet children have been threatened with the loss of their children for
> refusing to give their childen Ritalin..

You may want to re-write that....

> >It is the teachers' job to provide information to the parents and doctors
> >about the child's behavior, so the parents and doctors can understand
what
> >is going on.
> >
> >> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
> >> >
> >> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
> >>
> >> true..
> >>
> >>
> >> > and others about
> >> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
> >>
> >> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
> >
> >Physicians, psychologists and other health professionals, with the
consent
> >of the parents, of course.
>
> well thaty is the point isn't it?
> whose agent IS the teacher?

AFAIAC, the teacher is there to advocate for the chold and their
educationally needs as the teacher sees the needs.

> The parents?..the child?...The State?..Social Workers?..Health
> Services..
> the list grows almost daily...

Imaginary.

> None of it has anything to do with educating the child

It has everything to do with educating the child. The teacher is there to
identify obstacles to learning. If it is within the teachers ability to do
so, they should do it themselves, e.g., moving closer to the black board. If
it is within the teacher's ability, the teacher is *obligated* to alert the
appropriate parties, and then assist in helping remove that obstacle.

That is an intrinsic part of teaching.

jake
September 22nd 03, 03:02 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:14:45 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >
>> >So are teachers.
>>
>> What planet do YOU live on?
>>
>> http://shorterlink.com/?7RQSJL
>>
>> MR. SINCLAIR (HISTORY): I started drinking in my car in 1994. I would
>> roll up the windows and sit in the east side of the parking lot. In
>> the last space. There was coffee in the one, older thermos and scotch
>> in the other, newer one. I was caught later that year. But...I would
>> say that I definitely stopped caring soon after that.
>>
>> MR. KEROMAN (MATHEMATICS): Early on. Second semester of my first year.
>>
>> MR. PAPPAS (SOCIAL STUDIES): Once I was on this strange acne
>> medication. It was making me feel completely different from how I
>> usually, which is fine. It came to a head one day when I was
>> chaperoning a field trip to the Museum of Natural History. I was
>> feeling strange and I got off the bus and for some reason started
>> crying because I wasn't on the bus any longer. I didn't want to go
>> into the school, but I did. And they were looking at me, the kids on
>> my field trip. And I felt shame. That was the beginning of something.
>>
>> MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
>> out on the field in September and that's when the geese droppings
>> aren't completely frozen yet, but they aren't so wet that they just
>> leak into the field. They're solid. It' late November when they
>> actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
>> slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
>> even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
>> these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
>> a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
>> I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
>> (pause) Yeah, but I guess that's the moment.
>>
>>
>> These teachers are real.
>
>I am married to a teacher,
and I have no doubt a good one..

I married one once too

> any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.

I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..

It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
welfare of their charges..

whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose

<gratuitous flame clipped>

jake
September 22nd 03, 03:16 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:19:42 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >
>> >> >So are teachers.
>> >>
>> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >
>> >Planet earth.
>> >
>> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really care
>> >about students.
>>
>> I dont know about most
>> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>
>Hogwash, Jake. With the economy as it is now, a kid graduating Mediocre
>University with a 2.2 GPA in mathematics can get a job in private industry
>earning $15,000 or more than the the starting teacher.

a little ethnocentric and certainly not true globally



>
>Most teachers I have met do care.

I am sure they do..nevertheless in the UK at least children are turned
out barely able to read and write
>
>> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
>> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
>
>And that can be said for many diseases and disorders. It is a fallacious
>argument.

they do not seem to take such a central role in other disorders..
the suggestion made that they are trained to do such is absurd

>
>> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>
>They do not do so.

utimately they do as they are told by their employers..the State..

> What they do is report on their observations of the
>childs behavior while the child is interacting witht heir peers and with
>them. When asked to complete these questionnaires, many of them give a lot
>of thought. My son's ped neuro exhibited one where the teacher went so far
>as to hand write out three pages to help the student.

There are many dedicated and hard working teachers

>You're painting of this profession with such a broad brush of bile is sad.

I am doing no such thing..merely provided a counterbalance to the idea
that most teachers are altruistic saints..


>
>

jake
September 22nd 03, 03:20 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >So are teachers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >> >
>> >> >Planet earth.
>> >> >
>> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really
>care
>> >> >about students.
>> >>
>> >> I dont know about most
>> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
>> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
>> >
>> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What they
>> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
>with
>> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to do.
>>
>> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
>> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
>> everyday life
>>
>>
>>
>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>> >
>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>
>> true..
>>
>>
>> > and others about
>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>
>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>>
>> they are there to teach children..
>
>Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
>and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
>of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
>whomever can help the child learn.

agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.
>
>

Markus Probertus
September 22nd 03, 03:26 PM
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff"
>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine
blood,
> >> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >So are teachers.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Planet earth.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they
really
> >care
> >> >> >about students.
> >> >>
> >> >> I dont know about most
> >> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
> >> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> >> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
> >> >
> >> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What
they
> >> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
> >with
> >> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to
do.
> >>
> >> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
> >> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
> >> everyday life
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
> >> >
> >> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
> >>
> >> true..
> >>
> >>
> >> > and others about
> >> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
> >>
> >> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
> >>
> >> they are there to teach children..
> >
> >Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
> >and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as
part
> >of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
> >whomever can help the child learn.
>
> agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
> away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
> children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.

I'll agree, with the assumption that the parents are making the choice with
factual information and have not been subjected to *any* scaremongering.

Markus Probertus
September 22nd 03, 03:30 PM
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:19:42 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >So are teachers.
> >> >>
> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >> >
> >> >Planet earth.
> >> >
> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really
care
> >> >about students.
> >>
> >> I dont know about most
> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
> >
> >Hogwash, Jake. With the economy as it is now, a kid graduating Mediocre
> >University with a 2.2 GPA in mathematics can get a job in private
industry
> >earning $15,000 or more than the the starting teacher.
>
> a little ethnocentric and certainly not true globally

Ethnocentric? How so? Are you aware of the 'ethno' I was referring to?

> >Most teachers I have met do care.
>
> I am sure they do..nevertheless in the UK at least children are turned
> out barely able to read and write

I could point out that your statement is a little ethnocentric and certainly
not true globally. Oops. I did.

What are new teachers paid in the UK?

> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
> >
> >And that can be said for many diseases and disorders. It is a fallacious
> >argument.
>
> they do not seem to take such a central role in other disorders..
> the suggestion made that they are trained to do such is absurd

And, no one made such a suggestion. They do have input.

> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
> >
> >They do not do so.
>
> utimately they do as they are told by their employers..the State..

I have dealth with a teacher for 30 years and have never seen that.

> > What they do is report on their observations of the
> >childs behavior while the child is interacting witht heir peers and with
> >them. When asked to complete these questionnaires, many of them give a
lot
> >of thought. My son's ped neuro exhibited one where the teacher went so
far
> >as to hand write out three pages to help the student.
>
> There are many dedicated and hard working teachers
>
> >You're painting of this profession with such a broad brush of bile is
sad.
>
> I am doing no such thing..merely provided a counterbalance to the idea
> that most teachers are altruistic saints..


With all the bile that they have to put up with, many of them are.

Markus Probertus
September 22nd 03, 03:32 PM
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:14:45 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
> >> >
> >> >So are teachers.
> >>
> >> What planet do YOU live on?
> >>
> >> http://shorterlink.com/?7RQSJL
> >>
> >> MR. SINCLAIR (HISTORY): I started drinking in my car in 1994. I would
> >> roll up the windows and sit in the east side of the parking lot. In
> >> the last space. There was coffee in the one, older thermos and scotch
> >> in the other, newer one. I was caught later that year. But...I would
> >> say that I definitely stopped caring soon after that.
> >>
> >> MR. KEROMAN (MATHEMATICS): Early on. Second semester of my first year.
> >>
> >> MR. PAPPAS (SOCIAL STUDIES): Once I was on this strange acne
> >> medication. It was making me feel completely different from how I
> >> usually, which is fine. It came to a head one day when I was
> >> chaperoning a field trip to the Museum of Natural History. I was
> >> feeling strange and I got off the bus and for some reason started
> >> crying because I wasn't on the bus any longer. I didn't want to go
> >> into the school, but I did. And they were looking at me, the kids on
> >> my field trip. And I felt shame. That was the beginning of something.
> >>
> >> MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
> >> out on the field in September and that's when the geese droppings
> >> aren't completely frozen yet, but they aren't so wet that they just
> >> leak into the field. They're solid. It' late November when they
> >> actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
> >> slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
> >> even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
> >> these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
> >> a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
> >> I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
> >> (pause) Yeah, but I guess that's the moment.
> >>
> >>
> >> These teachers are real.
> >
> >I am married to a teacher,
> and I have no doubt a good one..
>
> I married one once too
>
> > any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>
> I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..

Not so. You painted the entire profession with a broad brush, without
qualification or limitation.


>
> It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
> welfare of their charges..
>
> whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose

And, no one is claiming that they are. Red herring.

Mark D Morin
September 22nd 03, 03:39 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:02:25 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:


>>I am married to a teacher,
>and I have no doubt a good one..
>
>I married one once too
>
>> any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>
>I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..
>
>It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
>welfare of their charges..
>
>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose

But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
processes.
================================================== ==
The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
before we use it, we'll never use anything,
because we'll never have absolute understanding.
David Wright 9/20/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

jake
September 22nd 03, 04:02 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:26:34 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:

>
>"jake" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 19:09:40 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:12:23 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff"
>
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine
>blood,
>> >> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >So are teachers.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Planet earth.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they
>really
>> >care
>> >> >> >about students.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I dont know about most
>> >> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>> >> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
>> >> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
>> >> >
>> >> >No, but they don't need to examine blood. Or make a diagnosis. What
>they
>> >> >need to do is report the child's behaviors to the doctor. That, along
>> >with
>> >> >their experience with working with kids, they are well qualified to
>do.
>> >>
>> >> no..what they need to do is learn to accept the rough and tumble of a
>> >> collection of healthy growing children and quit helping to medicalize
>> >> everyday life
>> >
>> >It is not up to doctors or teachers whether or not medication may help a
>> >child's problem.
>>
>> I agree wholeheartedly
>>
>> >It is up to the parents.
>>
>>
>You may want to re-write that....

:>)

yet parents have been threatened with the loss of their children for
refusing to give their childen Ritalin..
>

>
>> >It is the teachers' job to provide information to the parents and doctors
>> >about the child's behavior, so the parents and doctors can understand
>what
>> >is going on.
>> >
>> >> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>> >> >
>> >> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>> >>
>> >> true..
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > and others about
>> >> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>> >>
>> >> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>> >
>> >Physicians, psychologists and other health professionals, with the
>consent
>> >of the parents, of course.
>>
>> well thaty is the point isn't it?
>> whose agent IS the teacher?
>
>AFAIAC, the teacher is there to advocate for the chold and their
>educationally needs as the teacher sees the needs.

AFAYAC perhaps


Aligning the professional and human characteristics of teachers with
the requirements of society

http://www.cmec.ca/international/teacheng.htm


“While it was never a simple task, teaching today faces many new
challenges. The economic and social environment is being transformed
by the knowledge explosion and by the dizzying pace of technological
change, as well as by globalization, growing competitive pressures,
and changing social structures. The classroom and its occupants are
also being transformed in the process. In big-city schools, one may
hear a dozen mother tongues other than English or French. Many
students are hungry; many come from broken homes;

* teachers are increasingly being called upon to fill a vacuum left *
*by institutions that used to be the cornerstones of society, such*
* as the *family and the church. *

Mentally and physically handicapped children have been integrated into
the regular public school system. In many cities, violence in schools
has grown, even in what are considered to be affluent neighbourhoods.

These and other changes are having a profound impact on the
socio-economic environment within which education takes place and on
the nature of the school-age population. Compounding these problems is
the fact that school no longer has the attraction it once had, when
education was the recognized path to social promotion.

Often teachers are ill prepared to meet these challenges. In addition,
they must swing with sometimes vast changes in educational
philosophies and methodologies, only to find later that the pendulum
has begun to move back towards the original position.�

Newfoundland Teachers' Association's response to Our Children Our
Future

*Schools reflect society. Today's society has placed in our schools*
*many of the responsibilities for children that once were the domain*
*of, and clearly belong to, other agencies.*

At the same time, society, in seeking ways and means to ensure the
welfare and protection of its children, has removed from teaching many
of the devices which once were available for discipline control.
Additionally, society has expanded the rights of an individual to a
level which is almost equal to that of the rights of the group in
which the individual may be present. These, and other matters, have
dramatically changed the face of our classrooms, and changed the face
of teaching.





>
>> The parents?..the child?...The State?..Social Workers?..Health
>> Services..
>> the list grows almost daily...
>
>Imaginary.

The role of the teacher is constantly expanding..nothing imaginary
about it..

>
>> None of it has anything to do with educating the child
>
>It has everything to do with educating the child. The teacher is there to
>identify obstacles to learning. If it is within the teachers ability to do
>so, they should do it themselves, e.g., moving closer to the black board. If
>it is within the teacher's ability, the teacher is *obligated* to alert the
>appropriate parties, and then assist in helping remove that obstacle.

>That is an intrinsic part of teaching.

sure,..but some cannot even cope with a four year old it seems

Boy, 4, excluded from school
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/3124012.stm

Paul Rogers was excluded on his fourth day at the school
A four-year-old boy has been excluded from school in his first week as
a pupil.
Paul Rogers from Tonbridge in Kent was judged by his new primary
school to be unmanageable and a danger to himself.

Staff at the town's Cage Green Primary School said Paul had sworn at
them and been aggressive to other pupils

But his mother says he has a clinical behaviour disorder which the
school knew about and should have coped with.

Paul has been diagnosed with Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder
(ADHD).

>
>

jake
September 22nd 03, 04:40 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:30:39 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:

>
>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:19:42 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:08:20 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >So are teachers.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >> >
>> >> >Planet earth.
>> >> >
>> >> >Teachers are not perfect. Most of them are there because they really
>care
>> >> >about students.
>> >>
>> >> I dont know about most
>> >> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>> >
>> >Hogwash, Jake. With the economy as it is now, a kid graduating Mediocre
>> >University with a 2.2 GPA in mathematics can get a job in private
>industry
>> >earning $15,000 or more than the the starting teacher.
>>
>> a little ethnocentric and certainly not true globally
>
>Ethnocentric? How so? Are you aware of the 'ethno' I was referring to?
>
>> >Most teachers I have met do care.
>>
>> I am sure they do..nevertheless in the UK at least children are turned
>> out barely able to read and write
>
>I could point out that your statement is a little ethnocentric and certainly
>not true globally. Oops. I did.
>
>What are new teachers paid in the UK?

£18,105...£ 21,522 in inner London

but I concede your point..it seems as true in the UK as the US

before April

Newly qualified teachers now have a starting salary of £17,595.
According to the Association of Graduate Recruiters, the average
starting salary for graduates is £20,300 - £2,705 (15%) more than
teachers.

just out of interest..

http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,543848,00.html

Were teachers better off in the 60s?

1965


• Annual salary for an experienced teacher: £1,620 - slightly less
than a GP's salary but more than double a police constable's salary of
£700. A good honours graduate was paid £900.

• House prices: Up to twice a teacher's salary. £2,500 for a
semi-detached house in the Midlands. £4,000 for a detached house in
London suburbs.

• Cost of a small hatchback car: Around £400, a quarter of teachers'
annual salary.

• Number of primary school teachers: 140,377.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in primary schools: 29 to one.

• Number of secondary school teachers: 141,507.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in secondary schools: 19 to one.


2001


• Annual salary for experienced teacher: £26,919, half the salary of
an experienced GP and around the same as a police constable. A good
honours graduate is paid £17,000.

• House prices: The average price of £117,000 is more than four times
a teacher's salary. A semi in the Midlands is three times a teacher's
salary. At around £250,000, a detached house in the London suburbs is
more than nine times a teacher's salary.

• Cost of a small hatchback car: Around £6,500, just over a quarter of
a teacher's annual salary.

• Number of primary school teachers: 185,482.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in primary schools: 23 to one.

• Number of secondary school teachers: 189,000.

• Ratio of pupils to teachers in secondary schools: 17 to one.



>
>> >> In any event they are NOT well trained to examine blood and do NOT
>> >> have objective clinical criteria to Dx ADHD.
>> >
>> >And that can be said for many diseases and disorders. It is a fallacious
>> >argument.
>>
>> they do not seem to take such a central role in other disorders..
>> the suggestion made that they are trained to do such is absurd
>
>And, no one made such a suggestion. They do have input.
>
>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>> >
>> >They do not do so.
>>
>> utimately they do as they are told by their employers..the State..
>
>I have dealth with a teacher for 30 years and have never seen that.
>
>> > What they do is report on their observations of the
>> >childs behavior while the child is interacting witht heir peers and with
>> >them. When asked to complete these questionnaires, many of them give a
>lot
>> >of thought. My son's ped neuro exhibited one where the teacher went so
>far
>> >as to hand write out three pages to help the student.
>>
>> There are many dedicated and hard working teachers
>>
>> >You're painting of this profession with such a broad brush of bile is
>sad.
>>
>> I am doing no such thing..merely provided a counterbalance to the idea
>> that most teachers are altruistic saints..
>
>
>With all the bile that they have to put up with, many of them are.

:>)

jake
September 22nd 03, 04:49 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:32:11 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:

>
>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
>> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:14:45 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>> >> >> and uses objective criteria.
>> >> >
>> >> >So are teachers.
>> >>
>> >> What planet do YOU live on?
>> >>
>> >> http://shorterlink.com/?7RQSJL
>> >>
>> >> MR. SINCLAIR (HISTORY): I started drinking in my car in 1994. I would
>> >> roll up the windows and sit in the east side of the parking lot. In
>> >> the last space. There was coffee in the one, older thermos and scotch
>> >> in the other, newer one. I was caught later that year. But...I would
>> >> say that I definitely stopped caring soon after that.
>> >>
>> >> MR. KEROMAN (MATHEMATICS): Early on. Second semester of my first year.
>> >>
>> >> MR. PAPPAS (SOCIAL STUDIES): Once I was on this strange acne
>> >> medication. It was making me feel completely different from how I
>> >> usually, which is fine. It came to a head one day when I was
>> >> chaperoning a field trip to the Museum of Natural History. I was
>> >> feeling strange and I got off the bus and for some reason started
>> >> crying because I wasn't on the bus any longer. I didn't want to go
>> >> into the school, but I did. And they were looking at me, the kids on
>> >> my field trip. And I felt shame. That was the beginning of something.
>> >>
>> >> MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
>> >> out on the field in September and that's when the geese droppings
>> >> aren't completely frozen yet, but they aren't so wet that they just
>> >> leak into the field. They're solid. It' late November when they
>> >> actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
>> >> slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
>> >> even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
>> >> these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
>> >> a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
>> >> I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
>> >> (pause) Yeah, but I guess that's the moment.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> These teachers are real.
>> >
>> >I am married to a teacher,
>> and I have no doubt a good one..
>>
>> I married one once too
>>
>> > any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>>
>> I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..
>
>Not so. You painted the entire profession with a broad brush, without
>qualification or limitation.

No..the previous poster did that suggesting most teachers were
paragons of virtue..

I know that they are not..



>
>
>>
>> It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
>> welfare of their charges..
>>
>> whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>
>And, no one is claiming that they are. Red herring.

http://www.aap.org/policy/ac0002.html

RECOMMENDATION 4: The assessment of ADHD requires evidence directly
obtained from the classroom teacher (or other school professional)
regarding the core symptoms of ADHD, the duration of symptoms, the
degree of functional impairment, and coexisting conditions. A
physician should review any reports from a school-based
multidisciplinary evaluation where they exist, which will include
assessments from the teacher or other school-based professional
(strength of evidence: good; strength of recommendation: strong

jake
September 22nd 03, 04:51 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:39:52 -0400, Mark D Morin
> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:02:25 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>
>
>>>I am married to a teacher,
>>and I have no doubt a good one..
>>
>>I married one once too
>>
>>> any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>>
>>I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..
>>
>>It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
>>welfare of their charges..
>>
>>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>
>But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>processes.

really?
what professional qualification do they possess for this?
what course of clinical training have they done?








>================================================== ==
>The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
>by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
>an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
>something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
>before we use it, we'll never use anything,
>because we'll never have absolute understanding.
> David Wright 9/20/03
>
>http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Mark D Morin
September 22nd 03, 05:15 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 16:51:53 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 10:39:52 -0400, Mark D Morin
> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:02:25 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I am married to a teacher,
>>>and I have no doubt a good one..
>>>
>>>I married one once too
>>>
>>>> any your cdharacterization of them is absurd.
>>>
>>>I simply make the point that there are good bad and indifferent ones..
>>>
>>>It is equally absurd to suggest they are all saints dedicated to the
>>>welfare of their charges..
>>>
>>>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>>
>>But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>>Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>>processes.
>
>really?
>what professional qualification do they possess for this?

The qualification of being human.

>what course of clinical training have they done?

Strange, when I was in the department of education, there was explicit
training in observation and recording. My assumption is that others
had similar training.


================================================== ==
The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
before we use it, we'll never use anything,
because we'll never have absolute understanding.
David Wright 9/20/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

Roger Schlafly
September 22nd 03, 06:53 PM
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
> >processes.
> really?
> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
> what course of clinical training have they done?

It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
things like:

Having difficulty playing quietly.
Often talking excessively.
Often interrupting or intruding on others.
Often not listening to what is being said.
Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.

There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

jake
September 22nd 03, 07:24 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:

>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
>> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>> >processes.
>> really?
>> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
>> what course of clinical training have they done?
>
>It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
>teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
>things like:
>
>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>Often talking excessively.
>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>Often not listening to what is being said.
>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>
>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

they might as well ask the school caretaker for his input too..


>

Joe Parsons
September 22nd 03, 07:43 PM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly" >
wrote:

>"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
>> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>> >processes.
>> really?
>> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
>> what course of clinical training have they done?
>
>It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
>teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
>things like:
>
>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>Often talking excessively.
>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>Often not listening to what is being said.
>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>
>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?

That is the linchpin of the diagnostic protocol, after all.

Joe Parsons

mark
September 22nd 03, 07:44 PM
Roger Schlafly wrote:

> "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
>
>>>>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
>>>
>>>But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
>>>Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
>>>processes.
>>
>>really?
>>what professional qualification do they possess for this?
>>what course of clinical training have they done?
>
>
> It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> things like:
>
> Having difficulty playing quietly.
> Often talking excessively.
> Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> Often not listening to what is being said.
> Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>
> There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>
>

That's exactly why you look for converging evidence roger rather than
one single data source.

Roger Schlafly
September 22nd 03, 07:51 PM
"Joe Parsons" > wrote
> >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> >Often talking excessively.
> >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> >Often not listening to what is being said.
> >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
> Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
> developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?

There are no standards for that either! What I consider maladaptive
and inconsistent might be entirely different from what some 2nd grade
teacher think, and entirely different from what some ped expects.

Roger Schlafly
September 22nd 03, 08:00 PM
"mark" > wrote
> > Having difficulty playing quietly.
> > Often talking excessively.
> > Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> > Often not listening to what is being said.
> > Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> > There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> > considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> > what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
> That's exactly why you look for converging evidence roger rather than
> one single data source.

So one teacher and one parent say that the kid doesn't play quietly
and that he has similar behavior problems, and the ped decides
that it is maladaptive and puts the kid on drugs.

mark
September 22nd 03, 08:02 PM
Roger Schlafly wrote:

> "Joe Parsons" > wrote
>
>>>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>>>Often talking excessively.
>>>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>>>Often not listening to what is being said.
>>>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>>>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>>>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>>>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>>
>>Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
>>developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
>
> There are no standards for that either! What I consider maladaptive
> and inconsistent might be entirely different from what some 2nd grade
> teacher think, and entirely different from what some ped expects.
>
>

What is your point?
The very same standards are used in medical tests. You *might* have a
blood level of X that is above some arbitrary cut off but since it is
not a problem for you, there is no intervention. Your level may be below
the cut off but since you are having problems, there are interventions.
Judgements such as these are made all the time in medicine.

Or wd you prefer to be an isolationist and live in a cave?

mark
September 22nd 03, 08:03 PM
Roger Schlafly wrote:

> "Joe Parsons" > wrote
>
>>>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>>>Often talking excessively.
>>>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>>>Often not listening to what is being said.
>>>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>>>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>>>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>>>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>>
>>Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
>>developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
>
> There are no standards for that either!

Actually, there are standards. Have you looked at any of the manuals
for the rating tools and examined the normative data?

mark
September 22nd 03, 08:06 PM
Roger Schlafly wrote:
> "mark" > wrote
>
>>>Having difficulty playing quietly.
>>>Often talking excessively.
>>>Often interrupting or intruding on others.
>>>Often not listening to what is being said.
>>>Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>>>There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
>>>considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
>>>what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>>
>>That's exactly why you look for converging evidence roger rather than
>>one single data source.
>
>
> So one teacher and one parent say that the kid doesn't play quietly
> and that he has similar behavior problems, and the ped decides
> that it is maladaptive and puts the kid on drugs.

It must have been a while since you've looked at the diagnostic
criteria. Perhaps you should refresh yourself.

Markuss Probertuss
September 22nd 03, 09:47 PM
"Joe Parsons" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
>
> wrote:
>
> >"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
> >> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
> >> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
> >> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
> >> >processes.
> >> really?
> >> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
> >> what course of clinical training have they done?
> >
> >It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> >teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> >things like:
> >
> >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> >Often talking excessively.
> >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> >Often not listening to what is being said.
> >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> >
> >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>
> Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
> developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
> That is the linchpin of the diagnostic protocol, after all.

And, it is the one that roger always forgets to mention, even though he is
always reminded. I wonder why?

Mike Gormez
September 22nd 03, 11:26 PM
(Theta) wrote in message >...

> > Don't get fooled folks, 'theta' is a posting Scientology inspired
> > crap. After he failed to post his BS in alt.religion.scientolgy
>
> Errrm...okay.....replace the words "failed to" with the word "didn't".
> And...well, if you believe my opinions to be "BS" well that's your
> right. :o)

Anyone can check your posts on the newsgroup, you now deny having
made:
http://tinyurl.com/oa6v

Stop lying for once in the name of Scientology. Once again you are
proven to be a cult shill.


Mike Gormez
--
www.taxexemptchildabuse.net

Peter Bowditch
September 23rd 03, 01:39 AM
"Markus Probertus" > wrote:

>> I dont know about most
>> many are there going through the motions earning a living.
>
>Hogwash, Jake. With the economy as it is now, a kid graduating Mediocre
>University with a 2.2 GPA in mathematics can get a job in private industry
>earning $15,000 or more than the the starting teacher.

We had a teachers' strike here last week over poor pay. One example
given was that a 19-year-old plumber coming out of a 4-year
apprenticeship (left school at 15) will have a starting income which
is about $5,000 more than a starting teacher with a degree. In some
markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
with more money than a primary school head teacher.

--
Peter Bowditch
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

Roger Schlafly
September 23rd 03, 02:11 AM
"Peter Bowditch" > wrote
> markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
> with more money than a primary school head teacher.

So how many teachers have quit to become plumbers?

Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
about $6k/month, plus benefits.

Jeff
September 23rd 03, 03:31 AM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
et...
> "Joe Parsons" > wrote
> > >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> > >Often talking excessively.
> > >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> > >Often not listening to what is being said.
> > >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> > >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> > >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> > >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
> > Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
> > developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
> There are no standards for that either! What I consider maladaptive
> and inconsistent might be entirely different from what some 2nd grade
> teacher think, and entirely different from what some ped expects.

Absolutely true. What is the alternative? Not to allow parents and doctors
to use a proven treatment that help millions of kids?

The parents and teachers report the behavior and the pediatrician and often
other professionals decide whether it is appropriate for not. Of course,
teachers and parents won't bring the subject up unless they think the kids
could be doing better.

The diagnosis of ADHD is far from perfect. But millions of kids are helped
by treatment for it.

Jeff

Jeff
September 23rd 03, 03:32 AM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
et...
> "Peter Bowditch" > wrote
> > markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
> > with more money than a primary school head teacher.
>
> So how many teachers have quit to become plumbers?
>
> Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
> about $6k/month, plus benefits.

In the school district I graduated from, they start out at about $25 or 30 k
/ year + plus benefits.

How many months do they get paid? 9 or 12? What do they start out at?

Jeff

george of the jungle
September 23rd 03, 08:46 AM
On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:45:14 +0100, jake > wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>wrote:
>>
>>> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>>> and uses objective criteria.
>>
>>So are teachers.
>
>What planet do YOU live on?
>

>
>MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
>out on the field in September and that’s when the geese droppings
>aren’t completely frozen yet, but they aren’t so wet that they just
>leak into the field. They’re solid. It’ late November when they
>actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
>slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
>even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
>these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
>a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
>I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
>(pause) Yeah, but I guess that’s the moment.
>

And Rodger was the kid who ate goose **** and spewed it back out here?
No? Well the story's entertaining so who cares if it's relevant?

-G

george of the jungle
September 23rd 03, 08:57 AM
On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:20:56 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:
>

>>>
>>>
>>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>>> >
>>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>>
>>> true..
>>>
>>>
>>> > and others about
>>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>>
>>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>>>
>>> they are there to teach children..
>>
>>Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
>>and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
>>of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
>>whomever can help the child learn.
>
>agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
>away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
>children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.
>>
>>
>
And where are kids torn from there parents and placed on
Ritalin?

Markuss Probertuss
September 23rd 03, 02:07 PM
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:30:39 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> > wrote:

> >What are new teachers paid in the UK?
>
> £18,105...£ 21,522 in inner London

Can anyone really live on that income? In the major metropolitan areas of
the US, that woul dnot support a single person who lives like a monk.

> but I concede your point..it seems as true in the UK as the US

Some similarities are not worth having.

> before April
>
> Newly qualified teachers now have a starting salary of £17,595.
> According to the Association of Graduate Recruiters, the average
> starting salary for graduates is £20,300 - £2,705 (15%) more than
> teachers.

From what I have seen from neighbors' kids, that is not even close to the
disparity in the US. I referred to my neighbor's son in 1992 who graduated
with a 2.2/4.0 GPA from a very mediocre college. However, because it was in
math, he was picking over job offers which were in the $50-60K range whereas
if he went into teaching, he could hope to get as much as $40K for a year.
Granted, teachers get better benefits, but, when you are looking to start a
family, monetary accummulation is paramount.

> just out of interest..
>
> http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,543848,00.html


Yes, too many similarities.

Markuss Probertuss
September 23rd 03, 02:07 PM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
et...
> "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
> > >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
> > >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
> > >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
> > >processes.
> > really?
> > what professional qualification do they possess for this?
> > what course of clinical training have they done?
>
> It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> things like:
>
> Having difficulty playing quietly.
> Often talking excessively.
> Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> Often not listening to what is being said.
> Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
>
> There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.

We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl, doing
well in college. Also, very ADHD.

You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond to
what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play quietly.

Yes, Roger, the difference between the ADHD child and the non-ADHD child is
very apparent. One need not be a bubble scientist to know it, one just needs
an open mind.

Markuss Probertuss
September 23rd 03, 02:07 PM
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> > wrote:
>
> >"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote
> >> >>whatever they are..they NOT qualified to diagnose
> >> >But they are qualified to participate in the diagnostic process.
> >> >Just as lab technicians are qualified to engage in other diagnostic
> >> >processes.
> >> really?
> >> what professional qualification do they possess for this?
> >> what course of clinical training have they done?
> >
> >It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> >teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> >things like:
> >
> >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> >Often talking excessively.
> >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> >Often not listening to what is being said.
> >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> >
> >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>
> they might as well ask the school caretaker for his input too..

Good idea, since it is a somewhat different environment that home and the
classroom and the school caretaker (custodian in the US) would be able to
describe behavior in a different setting.

Chris Leithiser
September 23rd 03, 04:36 PM
Roger Schlafly wrote:
>
> "Peter Bowditch" > wrote
> > markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
> > with more money than a primary school head teacher.
>
> So how many teachers have quit to become plumbers?
>
> Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
> about $6k/month, plus benefits.

For nine months. Yearly average $4375 or so per month (2001 report.)
Of course, that's _average,_ not median. That represented a 10-percent
growth over the previous year.

California's budget problems (like those in many other states) are
taking a toll on education this year, though.

Bob LeChevalier
September 23rd 03, 05:48 PM
Chris Leithiser > wrote:

>Roger Schlafly wrote:
>>
>> "Peter Bowditch" > wrote
>> > markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
>> > with more money than a primary school head teacher.
>>
>> So how many teachers have quit to become plumbers?
>>
>> Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
>> about $6k/month, plus benefits.
>
>For nine months. Yearly average $4375 or so per month (2001 report.)
>Of course, that's _average,_ not median. That represented a 10-percent
>growth over the previous year.

I doubt that many teachers work 9 months. The typical contracts are
for 10 months or 12 months. On the traditional calendar, school is
out from mid-June to the beginning of September, but teachers
generally have to work the week after school lets out and the week
before school starts (many work the rest of summer as well, but I'm
referring to obligatory reporting). They do get the winter and spring
breaks, but other fields give paid vacation (often choosable by the
employee, but teachers don't get to choose).

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

aarwbj
September 23rd 03, 06:04 PM
Who can live on 25K a year?

Hmm... let's see. Currently in school, making less than 15K a year combined
income (WAY LESS)....

Own my own home that is fully furnished
Have food in my refrig.
Can eat out once a day every week
Have a spouse
Pay ALL utilities
Have credit cards and are able to pay them off monthly
Live in a metropolitan area

And its said that people CANT live off of a teachers salary? Are you
kidding me? Maybe they just dont' WANT to live off of a teacher's salary.









"Markuss Probertuss" > wrote in message
t...
>
> "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
> ...
> > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:30:39 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> > > wrote:
>
> > >What are new teachers paid in the UK?
> >
> > £18,105...£ 21,522 in inner London
>
> Can anyone really live on that income? In the major metropolitan areas of
> the US, that woul dnot support a single person who lives like a monk.
>
> > but I concede your point..it seems as true in the UK as the US
>
> Some similarities are not worth having.
>
> > before April
> >
> > Newly qualified teachers now have a starting salary of £17,595.
> > According to the Association of Graduate Recruiters, the average
> > starting salary for graduates is £20,300 - £2,705 (15%) more than
> > teachers.
>
> From what I have seen from neighbors' kids, that is not even close to the
> disparity in the US. I referred to my neighbor's son in 1992 who graduated
> with a 2.2/4.0 GPA from a very mediocre college. However, because it was
in
> math, he was picking over job offers which were in the $50-60K range
whereas
> if he went into teaching, he could hope to get as much as $40K for a year.
> Granted, teachers get better benefits, but, when you are looking to start
a
> family, monetary accummulation is paramount.
>
> > just out of interest..
> >
> > http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,543848,00.html
>
>
> Yes, too many similarities.
>
>
>

jake
September 23rd 03, 06:05 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:46:51 GMT, (george of
the jungle) wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 20:45:14 +0100, jake > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 15:26:01 -0400, "Jeff" >
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Good. The technician is probably well-trained to examine blood,
>>>> and uses objective criteria.
>>>
>>>So are teachers.
>>
>>What planet do YOU live on?
>>
>
>>
>>MR. LEWIS (PE): I was standing there on the field and...I was standing
>>out on the field in September and that’s when the geese droppings
>>aren’t completely frozen yet, but they aren’t so wet that they just
>>leak into the field. They’re solid. It’ late November when they
>>actually freeze. So the droppings, which cover the field, were still
>>slightly wet. Maybe four of these kids ever wear their soccer cleats,
>>even after I asked them to. No one was wearing them that day and so
>>these kids were sliding in this goose ****. And somehow one swallowed
>>a piece. In a tackle, or something, but it was all over his face. And
>>I just, you know...I just hated that kid. I had to clean him up.
>>(pause) Yeah, but I guess that’s the moment.
>>
>
>And Rodger was the kid who ate goose **** and spewed it back out here?
>No? Well the story's entertaining so who cares if it's relevant?

At last...someone with a sense of humour!



>
>-G

Chris Leithiser
September 23rd 03, 06:08 PM
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
>
> Chris Leithiser > wrote:
>
> >Roger Schlafly wrote:
> >>
> >> "Peter Bowditch" > wrote
> >> > markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
> >> > with more money than a primary school head teacher.
> >>
> >> So how many teachers have quit to become plumbers?
> >>
> >> Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
> >> about $6k/month, plus benefits.
> >
> >For nine months. Yearly average $4375 or so per month (2001 report.)
> >Of course, that's _average,_ not median. That represented a 10-percent
> >growth over the previous year.
>
> I doubt that many teachers work 9 months. The typical contracts are
> for 10 months or 12 months. On the traditional calendar, school is
> out from mid-June to the beginning of September, but teachers
> generally have to work the week after school lets out and the week
> before school starts (many work the rest of summer as well, but I'm
> referring to obligatory reporting). They do get the winter and spring
> breaks, but other fields give paid vacation (often choosable by the
> employee, but teachers don't get to choose).

I divided the yearly pay by Roger's SWAG to find out he was paying them
only nine months. Of course, they could pick cotton during the
summer...but that would raise ol'Roger's estimate.

jake
September 23rd 03, 06:35 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:57:35 GMT, (george of
the jungle) wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:20:56 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:
>>
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>>>> >
>>>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>>>
>>>> true..
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > and others about
>>>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>>>
>>>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>>>>
>>>> they are there to teach children..
>>>
>>>Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
>>>and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
>>>of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
>>>whomever can help the child learn.
>>
>>agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
>>away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
>>children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.
>>>
>>>
>>
>And where are kids torn from there parents and placed on
>Ritalin?

the United States of America..New York ..foe example

It is particularly a problem for black parents

According to a New York Post series on this issue in August 8, 2002,
the following cases were reported:

Michelle Lawson, the Bronx, New York

Michelle Lawson, an African American housing counselor for a
non-profit agency, said Bronx school officials repeatedly pressured
her to drug her 6-year-old son, Dominick, claiming the first grader
had ADHD because he was disorganized, forgetful and had a problem
sitting in his seat. School officials were unrelenting, despite her
continued objections. Then when she complained to the district
superintendent’s office, she felt even more intimidated. Pressured to
take Dominick to the New York Psychiatric Hospital, here a doctor
reviewed a school report and prescribed Ritalin after a 45-minute talk
with the boy. Still battling to keep her son off the drug, officials
later threatened to file child abuse complaints against Mrs. Lawson
with the city’s Administration for Child Services. According to Ms.
Lawson, these officials basically said they were going to take my
rights as a parent away. At this point she decided her only recourse
was to take her son out of the public school system and enroll him in
private school

The NAACP Speaks Out

http://home.earthlink.net/~bazillion/naacp.html

On JULY 15th, delegates and National Board Members attending the 94th
Annual NAACP Convention in Miami Beach, Florida, unanimously passed an
historic resolution supporting The Child Safety Medication Act of
2003, proposed national legislation that will curb the coercive
psychiatric drugging of schoolchildren.

Signed by NAACP President and CEO, Kweisi Mfume, and Board Chairman,
Julian Bond, the NAACP resolution includes facts on psychiatric child
drugging, such as:


Eight million children each year [in the United States]...are
prescribed behavior and mind-altering psychiatric drugs for learning
and attention difficulties.
There are documented incidents of highly negative consequences in
which psychiatric drugs have been utilized for what are essentially
problems of discipline which may be related to lack of academic
success, and it has been suggested that recent incidents of school
violence and other occasions of violence are the result of children
being unnecessarily medicated by...psychotropic drugs.

Labeling a child with these "disorders" has led to school personnel
coercing parents into accepting psychiatric diagnoses for their
child's behavior or learning problems and insisting that parents place
their child on psychiatric drugs....

African American students account for only 16% of the U.S. student
population, yet they represent nearly a third (32%) of all students in
programs for mild mental retardation. A New York study found that
"minority boys" are 11 times more likely to be on mind-altering
medications than is the general student body. The suicide rate among
African-American males between the ages of 15 and 19 has risen 219%
since 1964, around the same time stimulant drug use in school children
began in earnest.
Support for the NAACP resolution came swiftly from the House of
Representatives leadership, as Speaker Dennis Hastert congratulated
Kweisi Mfume, Julian Bond and the NAACP for passing the resolution.


The Child Medication Safety Act of 2003 stipulates that as a condition
of receiving funds under any program or activity administered by the
Secretary of Education, each state will be required to establish
policies and procedures that prohibit school personnel from demanding
a child take drugs in order to attend school or receive educational
services.



Commenting on the benefits of new legislation Fred Shaw, Compton NAACP
Branch President said, “The Child Medication Safety Act will help
restore the partnership between parents and teachers, which has been
harmed by teachers being forced to act as mental health clinicians.
Parents need their rights safeguarded so they can make informed
decisions on the health and educational needs of their children.�




The resolution also notes the considerable amount of controversy and
diversity of opinion among medical professionals regarding the
validity of childhood behavioral or learning disorders like (but not
limited to) ADHD and ADD, going on to report that labeling a child
with these disorders has led to school personnel coercing parents into
accepting psychiatric diagnoses for their child’s behavior, leading to
the children being placed on psychiatric drugs.



“Parents should not have to choose between drugging their child with
psychiatric drugs and keeping them out of school, nor should Child
Protective services threaten parents with ‘medical neglect’ for
choosing not to place their child on mind-altering medications,� Ms.
Jenkins said. “Although teachers have the responsibility of keeping
order in the classroom and creating a safe learning environment, the
primary answer should not be to recommend their students be medicated
with mind-altering, behavior-modification drugs,� Ms. Jenkins
continued. “This is why NAACP is so supportive of the Child Medication
Safety Act of 2003,� she said.

Roger Schlafly
September 23rd 03, 07:24 PM
"Markuss Probertuss" > wrote
> We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl,
doing
> well in college. Also, very ADHD.
> You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
> interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond
to
> what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play quietly.

If you can diagnose her in 30 seconds, then why do you keep
posting messages on how it takes 6 months of observations
to make a diagnosis?

Mark D Morin
September 23rd 03, 07:40 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:24:25 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> wrote:

>"Markuss Probertuss" > wrote
>> We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl,
>doing
>> well in college. Also, very ADHD.
>> You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
>> interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond
>to
>> what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play quietly.
>
>If you can diagnose her in 30 seconds, then why do you keep
>posting messages on how it takes 6 months of observations
>to make a diagnosis?
>

Where did anyone say it took 6 months of observations?

================================================== ==
The "anti" group on any subject can stall it forever
by asking an unlimited number of questions and feeding
an unlimited number of fears. And if we require that
something be absolutely safe and absolutely understood
before we use it, we'll never use anything,
because we'll never have absolute understanding.
David Wright 9/20/03

http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm

SumBuny
September 23rd 03, 07:45 PM
"jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> > wrote:
> >It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> >teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> >things like:
> >
> >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> >Often talking excessively.
> >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> >Often not listening to what is being said.
> >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> >
> >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
>
> they might as well ask the school caretaker for his input too..


You don't think that they do?

When my son's school was conducting a Functional Behavioral Assessment
(working with his doctor), the people that my son interacted with during his
entire day (i.e., in all settings) were interveiwed. This included:
bus driver
4 core teachers
lunchroom assistants
recess monitors
2 custodians
2 PE teachers
music teacher
speech therapist
occupational therapist
counselor
principal
both parents
student himself

When trying to determine what goes on with a child, it can be very important
to ask *everyone* to give input to what they have seen/noticed/experienced
with the child during his/her day.

Buny

Joe Parsons
September 23rd 03, 07:46 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:35:59 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:57:35 GMT, (george of
>the jungle) wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:20:56 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:
>>>
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>>>>> >
>>>>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>>>>
>>>>> true..
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > and others about
>>>>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>>>>
>>>>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>>>>>
>>>>> they are there to teach children..
>>>>
>>>>Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
>>>>and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
>>>>of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
>>>>whomever can help the child learn.
>>>
>>>agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
>>>away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
>>>children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>And where are kids torn from there parents and placed on
>>Ritalin?
>
>the United States of America..New York ..foe example
>
>It is particularly a problem for black parents
>
>According to a New York Post series on this issue in August 8, 2002,
>the following cases were reported:
>
>Michelle Lawson, the Bronx, New York
>
> Michelle Lawson, an African American housing counselor for a
>non-profit agency, said Bronx school officials repeatedly pressured
>her to drug her 6-year-old son, Dominick, claiming the first grader
>had ADHD because he was disorganized, forgetful and had a problem
>sitting in his seat. School officials were unrelenting, despite her
>continued objections. Then when she complained to the district
>superintendent’s office, she felt even more intimidated. Pressured to

Now *there* is a good primary source--a New York City Tabloid.

LOL

Chris Leithiser
September 23rd 03, 07:46 PM
Roger Schlafly wrote:
>
> "Markuss Probertuss" > wrote
> > We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl,
> doing
> > well in college. Also, very ADHD.
> > You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
> > interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond
> to
> > what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play quietly.
>
> If you can diagnose her in 30 seconds, then why do you keep
> posting messages on how it takes 6 months of observations
> to make a diagnosis?

Because folks like you keep confusing their snap judgements with the
process a doctor goes through in diagnosing ADHD? Just a thought.

SumBuny
September 23rd 03, 07:47 PM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
et...
> "Joe Parsons" > wrote
> > >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> > >Often talking excessively.
> > >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> > >Often not listening to what is being said.
> > >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> > >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> > >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> > >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
> > Which part of "...to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with
> > developmental level" is unclear to you, Roger?
>
> There are no standards for that either! What I consider maladaptive
> and inconsistent might be entirely different from what some 2nd grade
> teacher think, and entirely different from what some ped expects.


Fair enough...what about the child who is in 2nd grade, behaving like a
"normal" preschooler? Is that not maladaptive for a second grader?

Buny

jake
September 23rd 03, 08:11 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:46:20 GMT, Joe Parsons >
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 18:35:59 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:57:35 GMT, (george of
>>the jungle) wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 15:20:56 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 13:22:01 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> >> They are there to teach not to engage in social engineering..
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >Part of teaching includes communicating with the parents
>>>>>>
>>>>>> true..
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > and others about
>>>>>> >how their kids are doing in school and what they are doing in school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> its these "others " they communicate with that causes concern..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> they are there to teach children..
>>>>>
>>>>>Correct. They are there to teach, and part of that is is help address any
>>>>>and all problems which interfere with their students learning. Thus, as part
>>>>>of there obligation to the student, they are there to communicate with
>>>>>whomever can help the child learn.
>>>>
>>>>agreed..with the proviso that "helping" does not include the tearing
>>>>away of the children from their parents.. and placement in a
>>>>children's home for not wishing their child to be on Ritalin.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>And where are kids torn from there parents and placed on
>>>Ritalin?
>>
>>the United States of America..New York ..foe example
>>
>>It is particularly a problem for black parents
>>
>>According to a New York Post series on this issue in August 8, 2002,
>>the following cases were reported:
>>
>>Michelle Lawson, the Bronx, New York
>>
>> Michelle Lawson, an African American housing counselor for a
>>non-profit agency, said Bronx school officials repeatedly pressured
>>her to drug her 6-year-old son, Dominick, claiming the first grader
>>had ADHD because he was disorganized, forgetful and had a problem
>>sitting in his seat. School officials were unrelenting, despite her
>>continued objections. Then when she complained to the district
>>superintendent’s office, she felt even more intimidated. Pressured to
>
>Now *there* is a good primary source--a New York City Tabloid.

Still playing at university seminars?

Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?

New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
objective assessment .

never mind..
The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..



__

"In its recent infatuation with symptomatic, push-button remedies,
psychiatry has lost its way not only intellectually but spiritually
and morally. Even when it is not actually doing damage to the people
it is supposed to help,…it is encouraging among doctors and patients
alike the fraudulent and dangerous fantasy that life's every passing
'symptom' can be clinically diagnosed and, once diagnosed, alleviated
if not eliminated by pharmacological intervention."

Paul R. McHugh
Professor of Psychiatry,
Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine

Joe Parsons
September 23rd 03, 08:22 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:11:07 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

[snip]

>Still playing at university seminars?

Do you mean, do I rely on primary sources (rather than second- or third- hand
accounts) wherever possible in any matter of importance? Yes. Do I try to
apply critical thinking skills? Yes. Frankly, I think these are important
skills. Don't you?

>Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?

Do you believe the tabloid account tells the whole story?

>New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
>point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
>diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
>objective assessment .
>
>never mind..
>The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..

Have you ever bothered to read the actual text of HR 1170? Are you familiar
with its sponsors? The amendments? The debate? What actual changes it might
make, if any?

Joe Parsons

jake
September 23rd 03, 08:40 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:22:30 GMT, Joe Parsons >
wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:11:07 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>Still playing at university seminars?
>
>Do you mean, do I rely on primary sources (rather than second- or third- hand
>accounts) wherever possible in any matter of importance?

no..


> Yes. Do I try to
>apply critical thinking skills? Yes. Frankly, I think these are important
>skills. Don't you?

certainly..and one of the fruits of critical thinking is the ability
to discern people like you.. rubbishing a source when you cant deal
with the facts.
1+1=2 whatever the souce of the information...

you are very good at posing and answering your own questions...
The question asked was... where is it happening?
the answer is the USA.


>
>>Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?
>
>Do you believe the tabloid account tells the whole story?

Ms Lawson tells her story articulately enough..It is only one of many.
the black community could tell..

>
>>New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
>>point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
>>diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
>>objective assessment .
>>
>>never mind..
>>The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..
>
>Have you ever bothered to read the actual text of HR 1170? Are you familiar
>with its sponsors? The amendments? The debate? What actual changes it might
>make, if any?

"The Child Medication Safety Act of 2003 stipulates that as a
condition of receiving funds under any program or activity
administered by the Secretary of Education, each state will be
required to establish policies and procedures that prohibit school
personnel from demanding a child take drugs in order to attend school
or receive educational services."

sounds quite good enough for me.
as I said.. it will curtail the zeal..



"Commenting on the benefits of new legislation Fred Shaw, Compton
NAACP Branch President said, The Child Medication Safety Act will
help restore the partnership between parents and teachers, which has
been harmed by teachers being forced to act as mental health
clinicians.

Parents need their rights safeguarded so they can make informed
decisions on the health and educational needs of their children".

You have some problem with that?





>
>Joe Parsons

--
"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an
invisible government owing no allegiance and
acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To
destroy this invisible government, to befoul the
unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt
politics is the first task of the statesmanship of
today."

- Theodore Roosevelt, 19 April 1906

Marko Proberto
September 23rd 03, 09:44 PM
"aarwbj" > wrote in message
news:z5%bb.14014$a16.4938@lakeread01...
> Who can live on 25K a year?
>
> Hmm... let's see. Currently in school, making less than 15K a year
combined
> income (WAY LESS)....
>
> Own my own home that is fully furnished
> Have food in my refrig.
> Can eat out once a day every week
> Have a spouse
> Pay ALL utilities
> Have credit cards and are able to pay them off monthly
> Live in a metropolitan area
>
> And its said that people CANT live off of a teachers salary? Are you
> kidding me? Maybe they just dont' WANT to live off of a teacher's salary.

Depends on where you live. Many teachers have major student loans that they
have to pay off.

> "Markuss Probertuss" > wrote in message
> t...
> >
> > "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:30:39 GMT, "Markus Probertus"
> > > > wrote:
> >
> > > >What are new teachers paid in the UK?
> > >
> > > £18,105...£ 21,522 in inner London
> >
> > Can anyone really live on that income? In the major metropolitan areas
of
> > the US, that woul dnot support a single person who lives like a monk.
> >
> > > but I concede your point..it seems as true in the UK as the US
> >
> > Some similarities are not worth having.
> >
> > > before April
> > >
> > > Newly qualified teachers now have a starting salary of £17,595.
> > > According to the Association of Graduate Recruiters, the average
> > > starting salary for graduates is £20,300 - £2,705 (15%) more than
> > > teachers.
> >
> > From what I have seen from neighbors' kids, that is not even close to
the
> > disparity in the US. I referred to my neighbor's son in 1992 who
graduated
> > with a 2.2/4.0 GPA from a very mediocre college. However, because it was
> in
> > math, he was picking over job offers which were in the $50-60K range
> whereas
> > if he went into teaching, he could hope to get as much as $40K for a
year.
> > Granted, teachers get better benefits, but, when you are looking to
start
> a
> > family, monetary accummulation is paramount.
> >
> > > just out of interest..
> > >
> > > http://education.guardian.co.uk/ofsted/story/0,7348,543848,00.html
> >
> >
> > Yes, too many similarities.
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Marko Proberto
September 23rd 03, 09:46 PM
"SumBuny" > wrote in message
news:It0cb.12584$AH4.1981@lakeread06...
>
> "jake" <nospamhere@all> wrote in message
> ...
> > On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:53:04 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
> > > wrote:
> > >It wouldn't matter how much training the teacher had (in
> > >teaching, or in medical diagnosis). The criteria for ADD are
> > >things like:
> > >
> > >Having difficulty playing quietly.
> > >Often talking excessively.
> > >Often interrupting or intruding on others.
> > >Often not listening to what is being said.
> > >Often forgetting things necessary for tasks or activities.
> > >
> > >There are no standards for any of these things. What one teacher
> > >considers "often" or "excessively" may be completely different from
> > >what another teacher or parent says, or what the ped expects.
> >
> > they might as well ask the school caretaker for his input too..
>
>
> You don't think that they do?
>
> When my son's school was conducting a Functional Behavioral Assessment
> (working with his doctor), the people that my son interacted with during
his
> entire day (i.e., in all settings) were interveiwed. This included:
> bus driver
> 4 core teachers
> lunchroom assistants
> recess monitors
> 2 custodians
> 2 PE teachers
> music teacher
> speech therapist
> occupational therapist
> counselor
> principal
> both parents
> student himself
>
> When trying to determine what goes on with a child, it can be very
important
> to ask *everyone* to give input to what they have seen/noticed/experienced
> with the child during his/her day.

When Buny hops on an issue it is so well covered.

Marko Proberto
September 23rd 03, 09:48 PM
"Roger Schlafly" > wrote in message
et...
> "Markuss Probertuss" > wrote
> > We ran into an old girlfriend of my sons the other night. Lovely girl,
> doing
> > well in college. Also, very ADHD.
> > You would know within 30 seconds that she talks excessively, often
> > interrupts others (if you could get a word in edgewise) does not repsond
> to
> > what you are saying she never heard it) and certainly cannot play
quietly.
>
> If you can diagnose her in 30 seconds, then why do you keep
> posting messages on how it takes 6 months of observations
> to make a diagnosis?

I did not make a diagnosis, but reported my observations.

And, I never claimed it would take 6 months. However, it should take more
than a single office visit, since the clinician needs to rule out all other
possible causes of the behaviors that the observers report.

You know this, as it is not the first time I have said it, and you still
repeat your baloney. I wonder why?

Joe Parsons
September 23rd 03, 10:28 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:40:03 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 19:22:30 GMT, Joe Parsons >
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 20:11:07 +0100, jake <nospamhere@all> wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>>Still playing at university seminars?
>>
>>Do you mean, do I rely on primary sources (rather than second- or third- hand
>>accounts) wherever possible in any matter of importance?
>
>no..
>
>
>> Yes. Do I try to
>>apply critical thinking skills? Yes. Frankly, I think these are important
>>skills. Don't you?
>
>certainly..and one of the fruits of critical thinking is the ability
>to discern people like you.. rubbishing a source when you cant deal
>with the facts.

It appears that what you are saying is that a secondary or tertiary source, like
a newspaper, is as valid to you as any primary source of information.

O...kay. That explains a lot.

But you are right, in that I do view a tabloid newspaper as being less
immediately credible than some other non-primary source. These publications
rely a great deal more on sensationalism to sell newspapers than it does
journalistic integrity.

>1+1=2 whatever the souce of the information...
>
>you are very good at posing and answering your own questions...

Thank you. I try to ask reasonable questions and to suggest sensible answers.

>The question asked was... where is it happening?
>the answer is the USA.
>
>
>>
>>>Do you imagine Ms Lawson is lying?
>>
>>Do you believe the tabloid account tells the whole story?
>
>Ms Lawson tells her story articulately enough..It is only one of many.
>the black community could tell..

Does that mean that you *do* accept the newspaper account as being the entire
story? Nothing was left out? No backstory, no background information? And Ms.
Lawson doesn't tell her story articulately, at all; there are no quotes
attributed to her at all.

There was another, similar story, about three years ago. CPS got involved with
a New York couple who, if the newspaper accounts were to be believed, were told
to drug their child, or lose custody.

There was justifiable outrage about the heavy-handedness of the school and the
invasion of privacy on the part of Albany County Family Court Judge Gerard
Maney.

There were a few pieces of the story that were not widely reported, but which
are found in sources closer to the facts. Some of these pieces may change one's
evaluation of the situation, while others may raise some interesting questions.

First of all, Judge Maney did *not* say, "Drug your kid or lose him." He said,
"You cannot ignore the problem Kyle is having in school. Present some
alternative to the physician's diagnosis and prescription." They didn't--but
consented to an "adjournment in contemplation of dismissal." That meant that,
being unwilling to provide some alternative solution to Kyle's manifest
problems, they agreed to take the earlier solution.

Second: Michael Carroll, the father, had been investigated for domestic violence
toward his spouse and toward his children. As is common with many of these
kinds of cases, court action was not initiated. Was there actually a real
history of domestic violence in the household? There's no way to know for
certain, absent court records, and there are none--but it does raise the
question.

Finally, there is the interesting fact that Mr. and Mrs. Carroll had separate
attorneys: the father was represented by the Public Defender, while the mother
had her own attorney. While this fact is not conclusive of anything, it is not
typical in this type of hearing (AFAIK) and could lend credence to the idea that
there was something else going on in the Carroll household contributing to the
situation.

It's amazing what you can learn, if you look beyond lurid headlines daytime
television.

>>>New York is just one of many places it is happening ..as the NAACP
>>>point out. I dont expect you to address racial preducidice in
>>>diagnosis ..you delude yourself and others that it is some kind of
>>>objective assessment .
>>>
>>>never mind..
>>>The Child Safety Medication Act of 2003 is likely curtail the zeal..
>>
>>Have you ever bothered to read the actual text of HR 1170? Are you familiar
>>with its sponsors? The amendments? The debate? What actual changes it might
>>make, if any?
>
>"The Child Medication Safety Act of 2003 stipulates that as a
>condition of receiving funds under any program or activity
>administered by the Secretary of Education, each state will be
>required to establish policies and procedures that prohibit school
>personnel from demanding a child take drugs in order to attend school
>or receive educational services."
>
>sounds quite good enough for me.
>as I said.. it will curtail the zeal..

Since the incidence of "demanding a child take drugs" is *extremely* slight, it
is not likely to make a significant difference.

The "zeal" you speak of: is that related to the "skyrocketing" number of ER
interventions for methylphenidate abuse?

Joe Parsons


>"Commenting on the benefits of new legislation Fred Shaw, Compton
>NAACP Branch President said, The Child Medication Safety Act will
>help restore the partnership between parents and teachers, which has
>been harmed by teachers being forced to act as mental health
>clinicians.
>
>Parents need their rights safeguarded so they can make informed
>decisions on the health and educational needs of their children".
>
>You have some problem with that?
>
>
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>>Joe Parsons

Joe Parsons
September 25th 03, 11:35 PM
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 01:11:33 GMT, "Roger Schlafly" >
wrote:

>"Peter Bowditch" > wrote
>> markets (Sydney property boom being one) the plumber will start out
>> with more money than a primary school head teacher.
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>So how many teachers have quit to become plumbers?
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>Here in California, the average public school teacher gets
>about $6k/month, plus benefits.

Interesting. I wonder where he or she is, and what he or she is doing with all
that extra money.

According to the American Federation of Teachers, the average teacher's salary
for the 2001-2003 school year was $54,348. Someone--maybe the gubmnt--must be
pocketing the extra $18,000.

Joe Parsons