The art of preventing flu

[Parker T.]

Hello,

Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
including her 2-months old little brother.

We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
strenghten her immune system. Little Flintstones vitamins with
aspartame flavoring do no good... yes sweetie, take the red pill...

What's the best way to give echinacea to a 3-year old ? As for
myself, I take echinacea in liquid form added to orange juice, but the
taste is a bit weird and I doubt I'll convince Little One to drink it.

Thanks.

P.

[JG]

"Parker T." > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,

> Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> including her 2-months old little brother.

Sounds more like run-of-the-mill, "common" *colds*. (This--about now
through next spring--would be your son's first flu season; the first
confirmed case was just reported in our area last week.) You really do
want to prevent him from contracting "true" flu (influenza); it's bad
enough in healthy adults and older children.

> We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
> strenghten her immune system. Little Flintstones vitamins with
> aspartame flavoring do no good... yes sweetie, take the red pill...

Actually, a good supplemental multivitamin/mineral tablet probably does
as much, if not more, to support the immune system than does echinacea.
Make sure, of course, that your daughter is getting a balanced diet and
plenty of rest/sleep, and institute and rigorously enforce, if you
haven't already, a policy of washing hands (*everyone* in the household)
EVERY time you enter the house.

If your daughter is repeatedly bringing home viruses, I'd start playing
hardball with the kindergarten personnel. Tell them the rate of illness
within their facility is appalling and unacceptable, and ask them to
strictly enforce their health policies. (Every school/daycare center
with which I'm familiar has such policies; e.g., no school until a
feverish child has had a normal temperature for 24 continuous hours; no
school if there's been diarrhea/vomiting in the last 24 hours.) No
doubt they'll tell you they're doing what they can ("We're trying"), but
obviously they AREN'T doing enough. Ask them if they've noticed
repeated policy violators and how they've dealt with them. Ask them if
they'd like *you* (you might be able to recruit other
****ed-off-at-the-rate-of-illness parents to help) to confront the
repeated offenders. But I digress...:-)

> What's the best way to give echinacea to a 3-year old ? As for
> myself, I take echinacea in liquid form added to orange juice, but the
> taste is a bit weird and I doubt I'll convince Little One to drink it.

When my daughter was younger, we gave her supplements made by Herbs for
Kids. The company, based in MT, has a variety of formulas intended to
support kids' immune systems (go to
http://www.herbsforkids.com/products.asp?pcid=9). We used to add drops
of their "Sweet Echinacea" to a peppermint/chamomile tea blend. (She
drank it, so I guess it wasn't TOO nasty!) There's a "store locator"
feature on the Herbs for Kids site; it doesn't appear to have info for
every state, though. (I'm in CO and have found their products in
various store here, yet no retailers are listed for CO.)

Good luck!

JG ...I have no affiliation whatsoever with Herbs for Kids (aside from
being a previous consumer of their products), and I can't testify to
their products' effectiveness. I don't know which measure, or
combination of measures, kept my daughter (relatively) healthy. I do
believe, however, that Herbs for Kids products are safe when taken as
recommended.

[HCN]

"Parker T." > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,
>
> Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> including her 2-months old little brother.
>
....

The best way to prevent flu is to wash hands... teach the little ones to
wash their hands.

[Elizabeth Reid]

"JG" > wrote in message >...

> If your daughter is repeatedly bringing home viruses, I'd start playing
> hardball with the kindergarten personnel. Tell them the rate of illness
> within their facility is appalling and unacceptable, and ask them to
> strictly enforce their health policies. (Every school/daycare center
> with which I'm familiar has such policies; e.g., no school until a
> feverish child has had a normal temperature for 24 continuous hours; no
> school if there's been diarrhea/vomiting in the last 24 hours.) No
> doubt they'll tell you they're doing what they can ("We're trying"), but
> obviously they AREN'T doing enough. Ask them if they've noticed
> repeated policy violators and how they've dealt with them. Ask them if
> they'd like *you* (you might be able to recruit other
> ****ed-off-at-the-rate-of-illness parents to help) to confront the
> repeated offenders. But I digress...:-)

I generally agree with your post, but if the kinds of illnesses
being brought home are cold-type viruses, I'm not sure that the
kinds of policies you mention will prevent spread. It's my
understanding that these viruses are frequently contagious before
there are symptoms, and different children can display symptoms
of different levels of severity, so one kid may not get too sick
and thus be well within the guidelines but may transmit a cold
to five kids who all get sicker than that first kid. My child's
day care has the policies you mention, and they're very strict
(I've taken my child to the doctor twice this week to rule
out possible contagious illnesses even though nobody involved
REALLY thought he had anything contagious) and colds are still
ubiquitous there.

If the OP is using 'flu' in the stomach bug sense (boy, I wish
English didn't have that conflation, it just confuses the heck
out of people) I agree that they're not trying hard enough at
her school.

FWIW, there seems to be a general feeling that this is a worse-than-
average year for viruses so far, but every year may seem that
way in a sort of reverse Lake Woebegon effect so I'm not sure
how much weight it has.

Beth

[HCN]

"Parker T." > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,
>
> Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> including her 2-months old little brother.
>
....

The best way to prevent flu is to wash hands... teach the little ones to
wash their hands.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

(Parker T.) wrote:

>Hello,
>
>Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
>kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
>including her 2-months old little brother.

WASH HER HANDS, and ask that the kindergarten begin a campaign of
regular handwashing: on arrival, before lunch and after evrey
nap.

At the very least, when you pick her up at kindergarten, wash her
hands.


>We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
>strenghten her immune system.

What part of the immune system are you hoping to strengthen? The
macrophages? IgG production? T-cell count? Mast cells?



Tsu Dho Nimh

--
When businesses invoke the "protection of consumers," it's a lot like
politicians invoking morality and children - grab your wallet and/or
your kid and run for your life.

[Tsu Dho Nimh]

(Elizabeth Reid) wrote:


>I generally agree with your post, but if the kinds of illnesses
>being brought home are cold-type viruses, I'm not sure that the
>kinds of policies you mention will prevent spread.

Handwashing - on arrival, before lunch, and before going home -
caused a huge (30-40%) drop in the number of days absent on some
schools.


Tsu Dho Nimh

--
When businesses invoke the "protection of consumers," it's a lot like
politicians invoking morality and children - grab your wallet and/or
your kid and run for your life.

[PF Riley]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 18:46:25 -0700, Tsu Dho Nimh
> wrote:

(Parker T.) wrote:
>
>>We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
>>strenghten her immune system.
>
>What part of the immune system are you hoping to strengthen? The
>macrophages? IgG production? T-cell count? Mast cells?

Now, be nice... :)

PF

[Parker T.]

"JG" > wrote in message >...
> "Parker T." > wrote in message
> om...
> > Hello,
>
> > Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> > kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> > including her 2-months old little brother.
>
> Sounds more like run-of-the-mill, "common" *colds*. (This--about now
> through next spring--would be your son's first flu season; the first
> confirmed case was just reported in our area last week.) You really do
> want to prevent him from contracting "true" flu (influenza); it's bad
> enough in healthy adults and older children.
>
> > We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
> > strenghten her immune system. Little Flintstones vitamins with
> > aspartame flavoring do no good... yes sweetie, take the red pill...
>
> Actually, a good supplemental multivitamin/mineral tablet probably does
> as much, if not more, to support the immune system than does echinacea.
> Make sure, of course, that your daughter is getting a balanced diet and
> plenty of rest/sleep, and institute and rigorously enforce, if you
> haven't already, a policy of washing hands (*everyone* in the household)
> EVERY time you enter the house.
>
> If your daughter is repeatedly bringing home viruses, I'd start playing
> hardball with the kindergarten personnel. Tell them the rate of illness
> within their facility is appalling and unacceptable, and ask them to
> strictly enforce their health policies. (Every school/daycare center
> with which I'm familiar has such policies; e.g., no school until a
> feverish child has had a normal temperature for 24 continuous hours; no
> school if there's been diarrhea/vomiting in the last 24 hours.) No
> doubt they'll tell you they're doing what they can ("We're trying"), but
> obviously they AREN'T doing enough. Ask them if they've noticed
> repeated policy violators and how they've dealt with them. Ask them if
> they'd like *you* (you might be able to recruit other
> ****ed-off-at-the-rate-of-illness parents to help) to confront the
> repeated offenders. But I digress...:-)
>
> > What's the best way to give echinacea to a 3-year old ? As for
> > myself, I take echinacea in liquid form added to orange juice, but the
> > taste is a bit weird and I doubt I'll convince Little One to drink it.
>
> When my daughter was younger, we gave her supplements made by Herbs for
> Kids. The company, based in MT, has a variety of formulas intended to
> support kids' immune systems (go to
> http://www.herbsforkids.com/products.asp?pcid=9). We used to add drops
> of their "Sweet Echinacea" to a peppermint/chamomile tea blend. (She
> drank it, so I guess it wasn't TOO nasty!) There's a "store locator"
> feature on the Herbs for Kids site; it doesn't appear to have info for
> every state, though. (I'm in CO and have found their products in
> various store here, yet no retailers are listed for CO.)
>
> Good luck!
>
> JG ...I have no affiliation whatsoever with Herbs for Kids (aside from
> being a previous consumer of their products), and I can't testify to
> their products' effectiveness. I don't know which measure, or
> combination of measures, kept my daughter (relatively) healthy. I do
> believe, however, that Herbs for Kids products are safe when taken as
> recommended.

Thanks for all the information, it's appreciated. I found yesterday
some chewable orange-flavored echinacea tablets for kids, and Little
One does like them. Great marketing tool: they put in smiley on the
tablet, so kids perceive them as treats.

Also, I agree with previous postings and washing hands right after
kindergarten should be done on a very strict basis.

Thanks,

P.

[Elizabeth Reid]

Tsu Dho Nimh > wrote in message >...
> (Elizabeth Reid) wrote:
>
> >I generally agree with your post, but if the kinds of illnesses
> >being brought home are cold-type viruses, I'm not sure that the
> >kinds of policies you mention will prevent spread.
>
> Handwashing - on arrival, before lunch, and before going home -
> caused a huge (30-40%) drop in the number of days absent on some
> schools.

My child's day care has recently started enforcing this (the
handwashing on arrival thing, they've always done handwashing
before any food) and I devoutly hope that it's going to make a
difference, but I have to say I'm not sure I understand why it
would. If my child's got a runny nose, he's going to touch it
about 1.2 nanoseconds after I wash his hands and be all ready
to give it to the other kids. So this is an empirical result?
What age groups were looked at?

I'm a compulsive hand washer myself, and I do wash my child's
hands after we're out in any environment where he's touching
things lots of other people have touched, but I'm not sure I
can picture why the handwashing on arrival makes such a difference
when he's going to be around the same kids all day and being
exposed to whatever they have. If it helps, though, I'm all
for it.

Beth

[JG]

"Elizabeth Reid" > wrote in message
om...

> Tsu Dho Nimh > wrote in message
>...

> > Handwashing - on arrival, before lunch, and before going home -
> > caused a huge (30-40%) drop in the number of days absent on some
> > schools.

> My child's day care has recently started enforcing this (the
> handwashing on arrival thing, they've always done handwashing
> before any food) and I devoutly hope that it's going to make a
> difference, but I have to say I'm not sure I understand why it
> would. If my child's got a runny nose, he's going to touch it
> about 1.2 nanoseconds after I wash his hands and be all ready
> to give it to the other kids. So this is an empirical result?
> What age groups were looked at?

> I'm a compulsive hand washer myself, and I do wash my child's
> hands after we're out in any environment where he's touching
> things lots of other people have touched, but I'm not sure I
> can picture why the handwashing on arrival makes such a difference
> when he's going to be around the same kids all day and being
> exposed to whatever they have. If it helps, though, I'm all
> for it.

Personnel at any facility where kids congregate should regularly
(ideally, as often as possible--certainly at the end of each day) be
wiping down "hard" surfaces--tables, chairs, shared toys/musical
instruments, playground equipment, doorknobs, drinking
fountains/handles, etc.--with a bleach/water solution. "Soft"
items--e.g., stuffed animals, books, blankets--pose more of a problem,
of course, and "sharing" is one of the values/virtues schools/daycare
centers attempt to instill in kids; I'd encourage my own child to either
forgo such items or to wash his/her hands after handling them. I also
think most kids (over, say, three years old) could be taught to *try* to
avoid touching their faces entirely unless they've just washed their
hands. (Repeated enough, it'd probably sink in. The potential
downside, I suppose, is a generation of Howard Hughes-like germ-phobics.
<g>) Unfortunately, I've seen far too many caregivers who aren't
cognizant of *their* role in spreading illness; e.g., a classroom
aide/paraprofessional will wipe a child's nose and throw away the tissue
but neglect to wash her hands afterwards. <sigh>

[Jeff]

"Parker T." > wrote in message
om...
> Hello,
>
> Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> including her 2-months old little brother.
>
> We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
> strenghten her immune system. Little Flintstones vitamins with
> aspartame flavoring do no good... yes sweetie, take the red pill...

Why? Becuase the people who want to make moeny of this say it works? You
should ask for real evidence that this works, like evidence from
peer-reviewed medical journals.

> What's the best way to give echinacea to a 3-year old ?

3-year old in kindergarten? She must be smart?

The best way is probably not to give it to her at all. It does not work.

> As for
> myself, I take echinacea in liquid form added to orange juice, but the
> taste is a bit weird and I doubt I'll convince Little One to drink it.

If everyone gets sick in the house, I guess that must mean you too. And you
say it doesn't work for you. Why would you think it works for others?

Jeff

> Thanks.
>
> P.

[JG]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...

> "Parker T." > wrote in message
> om...

> > Hello,

> > Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> > kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> > including her 2-months old little brother.

> > We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
> > strenghten her immune system. Little Flintstones vitamins with
> > aspartame flavoring do no good... yes sweetie, take the red pill...

> Why? Becuase the people who want to make moeny of this say it works?
You
> should ask for real evidence that this works, like evidence from
> peer-reviewed medical journals.

Several studies have indicated that echinacea can be *somewhat*
effective in the treatment of URIs, Jeff. (See the article on echinacea
in the 1/1/03 issue of "American Family Physician";
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030101/77.html) Its efficiacy as a
prophylactic is doubtful, however. As for the study mentioned at the
end of the AFP article (under "As We Went to Press"), a critique of it
can be found at
http://www.jrussellshealth.com/caveatsherbs.html#echinacea. (You have
hissy fits when I post articles themselves, Jeff, so I'm trusting you to
have the integrity to actually read both of those I've provided. <g>)

> > What's the best way to give echinacea to a 3-year old ?

> 3-year old in kindergarten? She must be smart?

Sounds like it! Maybe she'll tutor you for a reasonable rate! <g>

> The best way is probably not to give it to her at all. It does not
work.

The evidence is inconclusive, as *ethical* medical establishment
flunkies will admit. Most echinacea preparations are considered, even
by those who question their efficacy, to be quite safe for most people.

> > As for
> > myself, I take echinacea in liquid form added to orange juice, but
the
> > taste is a bit weird and I doubt I'll convince Little One to drink
it.

> If everyone gets sick in the house, I guess that must mean you too.
And you
> say it doesn't work for you. Why would you think it works for others?

So, simply reducing the duration or severity of a URI isn't good enough
for you, Jeff? It's all (*total* prevention or *total* cure) or
nothing? "Work" is relative...

[Jeff]

"JG" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > "Parker T." > wrote in message
> > om...
>
> > > Hello,
>
> > > Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> > > kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> > > including her 2-months old little brother.
>
> > > We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
> > > strenghten her immune system. Little Flintstones vitamins with
> > > aspartame flavoring do no good... yes sweetie, take the red pill...
>
> > Why? Becuase the people who want to make moeny of this say it works?
> You
> > should ask for real evidence that this works, like evidence from
> > peer-reviewed medical journals.
>
> Several studies have indicated that echinacea can be *somewhat*
> effective in the treatment of URIs, Jeff. (See the article on echinacea
> in the 1/1/03 issue of "American Family Physician";
> http://www.aafp.org/afp/20030101/77.html) Its efficiacy as a
> prophylactic is doubtful, however. As for the study mentioned at the
> end of the AFP article (under "As We Went to Press"), a critique of it
> can be found at
> http://www.jrussellshealth.com/caveatsherbs.html#echinacea. (You have
> hissy fits when I post articles themselves, Jeff, so I'm trusting you to
> have the integrity to actually read both of those I've provided. <g>)
>
> > > What's the best way to give echinacea to a 3-year old ?
>
> > 3-year old in kindergarten? She must be smart?
>
> Sounds like it! Maybe she'll tutor you for a reasonable rate! <g>
>
> > The best way is probably not to give it to her at all. It does not
> work.
>
> The evidence is inconclusive, as *ethical* medical establishment
> flunkies will admit. Most echinacea preparations are considered, even
> by those who question their efficacy, to be quite safe for most people.
>
> > > As for
> > > myself, I take echinacea in liquid form added to orange juice, but
> the
> > > taste is a bit weird and I doubt I'll convince Little One to drink
> it.
>
> > If everyone gets sick in the house, I guess that must mean you too.
> And you
> > say it doesn't work for you. Why would you think it works for others?
>
> So, simply reducing the duration or severity of a URI isn't good enough
> for you, Jeff?

Please show the peer-reviewed study that shows it reduces the duration and
severity of URIs.

> It's all (*total* prevention or *total* cure) or
> nothing?

Gee, medicine doesn't work that way. Vaccines like the chicken pox vaccines
often decrease the severity of illness rather than totally prevent it. So,
of course the goal is 100% prevent or total cure, but getting closer to the
goal is good.

> "Work" is relative...

As you pointed out, the product does nothing to prevent infections, which is
what the post is about. Taking it regularly won't do any more good than
using it when someone is sick, which is what the original question was. You
can't tell what you are getting in a particular product, and the evidence is
inconclusive at best.

Jeff

>
>

[Jeff]

"Tsu Dho Nimh" > wrote in message
...
> (Parker T.) wrote:
>
> >Hello,
> >
> >Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> >kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> >including her 2-months old little brother.
>
> WASH HER HANDS, and ask that the kindergarten begin a campaign of
> regular handwashing: on arrival, before lunch and after evrey
> nap.

And don't forget after using the toilet.

> At the very least, when you pick her up at kindergarten, wash her
> hands.
>
>
> >We'd like our daughter to start an echinacea program in order to
> >strenghten her immune system.
>
> What part of the immune system are you hoping to strengthen? The
> macrophages? IgG production? T-cell count? Mast cells?
>

Wouldn't that lead to autoimmune disease?

>
> Tsu Dho Nimh
>
> --
> When businesses invoke the "protection of consumers," it's a lot like
> politicians invoking morality and children - grab your wallet and/or
> your kid and run for your life.

[Jeff]

"Parker T." > wrote in message
om...

(...)

>
> Thanks for all the information, it's appreciated. I found yesterday
> some chewable orange-flavored echinacea tablets for kids, and Little
> One does like them. Great marketing tool: they put in smiley on the
> tablet, so kids perceive them as treats.

Yeap. Great marketing. Too bad they won;y help the kids though. How do you
know what is in them? Or that they work?

The answer that you have to do something doesn't cut it. Washing hands is
doing something that works.

The kids wouldbn't get sick any less often if their parents invested the
money in a college found instead of wasting it on the little orange pills.

(...)

[Wendy]

Parker T. wrote:
> Our 3-year old daughter brings heavy-duty flu germs from the
> kindergarten on a regular basis and everyone in the house gets it,
> including her 2-months old little brother.

We have viral-triggered asthma in our house so viruses can really knock us
out. One year our infection rate dropped REMARKABLY. It was the year
my middle child started kindergarten in a private kindergarten that
required EVERY ONE TO WASH THEIR HANDS AS SOON AS THEY ENTERED THE
BUILDING.

I want to highlight that again. Everyone got rid of the germs they
brought with them as soon as they walked through the door. Before they
touched the toys. Before they put shared snacks. Before anything but
taking off their coats.

Instead of meeting every germ in six different school systems, we started
only meeting the germs of children who were deliberately sent while sick.

The next year we were in public school and the blissful reprieve was over.

WASHING HANDS WORKS!

Wendy