Re: Interesting Info from my sister's Baby Book

[A&G&K]

"Corinne" > wrote in message
news:fc4Oa.55661$fG.40274@sccrnsc01...
>
> "A&G&K" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Brandy Kurtz" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> > snip
> > >
> > > OMG! Wow, it really is interesting how much the baby raising
> > > information has changed over the years, thank goodness! My dad always
> > > says....Well you are still alive aren't you?!?!
> > >
> > > Brandy
> >
> > he he - my Dad says the same thing when he asks if he can feed DD (10.5
> mo)
> > honey ... "You had it when you were that small and you're OK"
> > Amanda
> >
>
> Seems like a LOT of our parents (grandparents, neighbors, whatever) say
> stuff like this - but the thing is, many of us AREN'T okay - my older
sister
> being my case-and-point. You know, I even hear from my own Mom the "we
> didn't use carseats when we had babies and...." etc, etc. Not saying that
I
> shouldn't use one with my daughter, but saying that making it a Law might
be
> too much...
>
> My mom is a smart lady, but a bit older, and from the generation of "If it
> was good enough for me, it's good enough for you.".
>
> :-)
>
> Corinne

I take your point. ... and I've been known to go "off" at my Dad when he
suggests something completely stupid to feed DD.
I wonder what we will be telling our kids is "OK" when they have kids??
Amanda

>
>

[Corinne]

> I take your point. ... and I've been known to go "off" at my Dad when he
> suggests something completely stupid to feed DD.
> I wonder what we will be telling our kids is "OK" when they have kids??
> Amanda
>

LOL Interesting question!! :-) Hopefully, NOTHING that we haven't researched
first....! ;-)

Corinne

[E]

is there a baby book for you? (how) were you treated differently?
just curious...
Edith

"Corinne" > wrote in message
t...
> Hi, folks! I just came across some info I copied out of my older sister's
> baby book, and thought I'd pass it along to the ng for your interest &
> edification. My sister suffers from Crohn's disease, and my husband, after
> learning this baby book info, said that he wondered if any studies had
been
> done regarding formula feeding/early intro to solids in regards to
diseases
> such as Crohn's. Interesting question, and I don't think that any studies
> *exactly like that* have been done, although I know of plenty which say
that
> BFing and later intro of solids may help PREVENT such diseases...Lemme
tell
> you, when I read what my sis was subjected to, I was SO HORRIFIED and sad
> for my Mom (and sis, of course). My sister was born in 1959, and was the
2nd
> of three children; my Mom was not only NOT encouraged to BF, but told she
> was not allowed to BF, as it "Just wasn't done anymore" and wasn't as
> healthy as the alternatives. She was given "The Shot" to dry up her milk
> after each of her three children were born...you know, the shot (I forget
> the name of the drug) that has since been banned because it was found to
> cause many awful side effects, up to and sometimes including Death! :-(
> After my Mom listened to my spiels on the benefits & wonders of
> breastmilk/BFing, she expressed some sadness that her generation was
treated
> so poorly by the medical establishment when it came to childbirth issues.
>
> Anyway, here is the info. Hug your BF babies after you read this!
>
> Sister (Hereafter referred to as T1): Born 02-27-59, birthweight 7lbs,
1oz.
> Discharge weight, 6lbs, 3 oz. Weight at one year: 22lbs.
>
> Notes from her Baby Book: "Broke 2am feeding at 2 weeks; Stopped 10pm
bottle
> 5 weeks; Stopped 2pm bottle 7 weeks, went on 3 meals daily."
>
> (note scribbled in margin: "Formula = Karo/Water/Evap.Milk")
>
> "1 Month = Cereal at 10am.
> 2 Months = Started fruit.
> 3 Months = Vegetables.
> 4 Months = Off Formula; Soups & Puddings for supper.
> 5 Months = Drinks Milk from Cup.
> 6 Months = Egg a.m., noon: meat; night: baked potato, jello, toast,
banana,
> boiled rice, cottage cheese, cream cheese."
>
>
> Okay, on the Grand Scheme of things, this might not look as awful as all
> that - but when I think about what I've learned about breastmilk v.
formula
> (or ANY bm substitute), and early intro of solids....I CRINGE and ache
when
> I picture my Momma feeding my sister...ignoring the tongue-thrust
> reflex...and then (as lots of our parents did), after supper, putting T1
> into her crib, alone in her room, leaving & shutting the door till
morning.
>
> Sigh.
>
> Have a good 4th; I'm gonna go climb into bed and see if my 2 yr old wants
to
> nurse!
>
> Corinne
>
> --
> "Since AP parents are accused of "spoiling" their children with
> responsiveness, love, understanding, patience, positive interaction,
> intimacy and closeness, respect, and value - I have decided that spoiling
> ROCKS! Teaching my child that she ALWAYS deserves all of the above is the
> right thing to do, and I plan to own my spoiling ways. Baby Spoilers
Unite!"
> --Jessica, iVillage AP board
>
>

[E]

unfortunately this sounds very familiar from the May03 group I had been
involved with. I finally gave up and unsub'd - couldn't take it any more.
the idea was that "mother knows best" "mother's instinctively know what to
do".
Edith

"Beth" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Lauren" > wrote in message
> ...
> > We have come a long way from that in the
> > last forty years - I mean I haven't heard of anyone giving solids before
> > four months old anymore.
>
> Oh . . . there are pockets of parents fighting hard to conserve their
> ignorance. Last week we had a waitress with a son our own son's age (7
> months), and she presented Teddy with a grape sucker. Her son *loves* any
> candy, she told us. And, she added, he had begun taking cereal at one
week
> old. I asked if he had been having some kind of digestive trouble and she
> said that he'd been waking and wanting to eat *all the time* when they
> brought him home, so on to cereal it was.
>
>
> --
> Beth
> John & Theodor's mother
> b.&d. 12/25/99 & b. 12/3/02
>
>
>

[Naomi Pardue]

>>>(note scribbled in margin: "Formula = Karo/Water/Evap.Milk")
>
>How the hell did anyone *ever* think this was healthier than breast milk?!!!
>

Well, FWIW, despite what her doctor may have told her, it was well known in
1959 that breastmilk WAS healthier than formula. (It was just too bad,
unfortunatley, that modern women were just too nervous to be able to nurse
successfully ... and aren't we lucky that we live in modern times where we have
such good formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies will do
practically just as well on them!!)


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

[Naomi Pardue]

>Yeah... I was formula fed and I'm not OK. And whenever conversation goes in
>that direction, I feel compelled to say so.

Yeah, I have to suspect that it ISN"T purely coincidence that I am the only one
among my siblings who was not breastfed ... and I'm also the only one among my
siblings to have allergies and chronic health problems.
(Not that all of them are necessarily related to the formula -- I can't say
that I've ever seen studies connecting migraines to formula feeding...)


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

[Iuil]

"Naomi Pardue" wrote
> >Yeah... I was formula fed and I'm not OK. And whenever conversation goes
in
> >that direction, I feel compelled to say so.
>
> Yeah, I have to suspect that it ISN"T purely coincidence that I am the
only one
> among my siblings who was not breastfed ... and I'm also the only one
among my
> siblings to have allergies and chronic health problems.
> (Not that all of them are necessarily related to the formula -- I can't
say
> that I've ever seen studies connecting migraines to formula feeding...)

My anecdote:

Me - ff from birth, solids at 3(?) months: some allergies and food
intolerences, mainly minor
#2 - ff from birth, whole milk at 2 weeks, cereal at 4 weeks ("big hungry
baby"): anaphalactic allergy to some shellfish, other minor allergies and
intolerences
#3 - bf for 8 weeks exclusively, solids at 4 months: nickel allergy, I'm not
aware of any other allergies or intolerences that she might have
#4 - bf for 4 months exclusively, combi-fed until 10 months: *NO ALLERGIES
OR FOOD INTOLERENCES*

Of my cousins, all the ones with significant asthma, exzema, food
intolerences etc have all been ff. Any that have been bf, even for a short
period of time, have either fewer less severe symptoms or no problems at
all.

Jean


--
"And he said:
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of
Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, and
though they are with you, yet they belong not to you." Khalil Gibran

Return address is unread. Replies to <firstnamelastname> @eircom.net.

[Corinne]

"Naomi Pardue" > wrote in message
...
> >>>(note scribbled in margin: "Formula = Karo/Water/Evap.Milk")
> >
> >How the hell did anyone *ever* think this was healthier than breast
milk?!!!
> >
>
> Well, FWIW, despite what her doctor may have told her, it was well known
in
> 1959 that breastmilk WAS healthier than formula. (It was just too bad,
> unfortunatley, that modern women were just too nervous to be able to nurse
> successfully ... and aren't we lucky that we live in modern times where we
have
> such good formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies
will do
> practically just as well on them!!)
>
>
> Naomi
> CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator
>

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the "CAPPA" designation...I'll look it up.
However...."Formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies
will do practically just as well on them"????

Not Hardly. Much better than they used to be, yes...Not as likely to
endanger the health of babies, True...nearly as good as breastmilk? No.

Again, this is my opinion - not a slam at you, just a disagreement.
Corinne

[Corinne]

"E" > wrote in message
...
> is there a baby book for you? (how) were you treated differently?
> just curious...
> Edith


Edith, GREAT question!! Yes, there IS a baby book for me, however, as I'm
the last of three children, my baby book has basic milestones & maybe 1 or 2
anecdotes, period. Things like, my weight at birth, when I walked, my first
tooth, my illnesses & doc's reccomendations for them, and my gifts at my
Christening, first birthday & first Christmas.

There is absolutely NO mention of food, firsts or anything. I was born when
my mom was 35, and when I ask her these days what she fed me when, she says
she can't remember. She didn't breastfeed ANY of us, and knows that I was
allergic to milk as an infant, so I think she said I got soy formula &
goat's milk, if I remember correctly.

I also now have an ulcer & "nervous stomach", and have had it since I was in
third grade...I have a serious milk problem (lactose intolerance,
intolerance of bovine protien, what have you), and eczema.

I wish I did have more specific info, but that's how it goes!

Corinne

--
************************************************** ***
When mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[H Schinske]

Corinne wrote:

>However...."Formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies
>will do practically just as well on them"????

Naomi was being sarcastic.

--Helen

[Naomi Pardue]

>However...."Formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies
>will do practically just as well on them"????
>
>Not Hardly.

I was being fascescious.

It was well known in the 1950's and 1960's (has always been well known) that
breastmilk was better than formula. However, for most of the 20th century,
doctors found that, mysteriously, after having nursed their babies successfully
for millenia, most women who tried to breastfeed were suddenly 'failing.' The
only explanation they could come up with was that 'modern women were too
nervous', or similar notions, and they comforted themselves, and their
patients, by telling themselves (and their patients) that since formula was
'practically just as good as breastmilk' that they didn't need to worry their
pretty little heads about their failure to breastfeed, or their unwillingness
to even try it. (And, in fact, many doctors stopped encouraging women to even
try it, since they knew that the women would fail anyway.)
What they DIDN"T seem to have realized was that what was causing the vast
majority of women to 'fail' wasn't 'nervousness' or 'poor milk quality,' but
the belief that babies were only supposed to eat every 4 hours for 15 minutes,
and that if baby wasn't satisfied with that, the solution was to top him off
with formula and, if that didn't improve the supply, to wean.)


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

[Vicki S]

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

Corinne > wrote:

> "Naomi Pardue" > wrote in message
> > 1959 that breastmilk WAS healthier than formula. (It was just too bad,
> > unfortunatley, that modern women were just too nervous to be able to nurse
> > successfully ... and aren't we lucky that we live in modern times where we
> > have such good formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies
> > will do practically just as well on them!!)
> > Naomi
> > CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator
>
> I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the "CAPPA" designation...I'll look it up.
> However...."Formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies
> will do practically just as well on them"????
>
> Not Hardly. Much better than they used to be, yes...Not as likely to
> endanger the health of babies, True...nearly as good as breastmilk? No.
>
> Again, this is my opinion - not a slam at you, just a disagreement.
> Corinne

I think you misunderstand Naomi. She was pretending to quote the 1959
doctors (who were sabotaging breastfeeding rates left and right). I'm
pretty certain that she wasn't expressing a personal opinion about 2003
formula. :)
Naomi happens to make a sort of hobby out of learning about feeding
recommendations for American babies through history.

---
--- Vicki in Indiana

Married my dear husband Joshua on May 21, 1995.
Ima shel ds, born 11/16/99 and breastfed for 22 months;
and Ima shel dd, still nursing. Born at home, 05/19/02.
http://www.geocities.com/vyxter/
An ounce of mother is worth a pound of clergy. -Spanish proverb
Baby names I like: Theodore, Corinne, Lionel, Adele, Timothy, Amelia,
Chloe, Orlando.

[Corinne]

Thanks very much Vicki, I appreciate the clarification - I can be pretty
dense sometimes!!

Corinne

[Corinne]

"H Schinske" > wrote in message
...
> Corinne wrote:
>
> >However...."Formulas that are so nearly as good as breastmilk that babies
> >will do practically just as well on them"????
>
> Naomi was being sarcastic.
>
> --Helen

Thanks, Helen - As I said to Vicki, sometimes I'm pretty dense, so thank you
for helping me out on this one!! :-)

Corinne

[cshardie]

Corinne wrote:
> I've read some very interesting books on just what you describe, the latest
> being "Don't Kill Your Baby!" , which is FASCINATING. Have you seen that
> one?

It's a fascinating title! What's it about, exactly?

--
Suzanne http://cshardie.tripod.com
sittin' on the dock of eBay, watching the bids roll away
--Richard Powers, "Literary Devices"

[Corinne]

"cshardie" > wrote in message
. ..
> Corinne wrote:
> > I've read some very interesting books on just what you describe, the
latest
> > being "Don't Kill Your Baby!" , which is FASCINATING. Have you seen that
> > one?
>
> It's a fascinating title! What's it about, exactly?
>
> --
> Suzanne http://cshardie.tripod.com

It's a great book, and the subtitle tells more: "Public Health and the
Decline of Breastfeeding in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries (Women
and Health Cultural and Social Perspectives)"

http://tinyurl.com/glbl

it is a GREAT read - my HUSBAND couldn't put it down!!

Corinne

[Naomi Pardue]

>I've read some very interesting books on just what you describe, the latest
>being "Don't Kill Your Baby!" , which is FASCINATING. Have you seen that
>one?
>

Yes, I do have that one. Very interesting indeed.

One I just finished is called, I think (too lazy to go dig it out of the
pile...) "The medicalization of motherhood,". This one sounded real promising,
but actually wasn't very interesting. It was about how Jewish and
African-American women in the first half of the last century responded to the
increasing amount of medical advice and pressure. (With Jewish women generally
welcoming such advice and African American women being more suspicious.)
The book was rather sketchy, going into far less detail than I might have
liked.
It didn't talk a lot about baby feeding, but most of the women did seem to have
formula fed.
One quote that really struck me though was from an African American woman who
talked about how the doctors and nurses were giving her all these instructions,
but she knew that mothers just had to trust their own instincts. She then went
on to say something like "My mother just told me to sterilize those bottles
really well before I put the milk in them, and make sure the bottles were all
really clean. I knew that if I did that my baby would be just fine, and I
didn't need to listen to anything those doctors told me." Instinct. Right.


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)

[Naomi Pardue]

> Mom was not only NOT encouraged to BF, but told she
>was not allowed to BF, as it "Just wasn't done anymore"

I'm actually kinda curious about this. I know that doctors were often less than
encouraging about bfing, but I do find it pretty hard to believe that she would
have been forbidden to bf, at least for the reason given here. (DH's mother was
told that she couldn't bf because she has flat nipples.)
I would actually guess that your mother may have HEARD 'you are not allowed to
bf', but what was actually said was something a little bit milder than that...
more like "oh, it probably isn't worth the trouble, since formula is so much
easier and babies do so well on it, you know."
>She was given "The Shot" to dry up her milk
>after each of her three children were born...you know, the shot (I forget
>the name of the drug) that has since been banned because it was found to
>cause many awful side effects, up to and sometimes including Death! :-(

Well, the main problem with 'the shot' is that is simply doesn't work. Women
lactate anyway.

>After my Mom listened to my spiels on the benefits & wonders of
>breastmilk/BFing, she expressed some sadness that her generation was treated
>so poorly by the medical establishment when it came to childbirth issues.
>

Yup. That's true. Out in my car I have a book, a novel, actually, called "A
Proper Marriage," by Doris Lessing. She was considered something of a radical
writer, but the book, written in, IIRC, the 1950's, and set during WWII gives
an absolutely horrifying picture of childbirth (and breastfeeding) at the time.
Too lazy to go out and get it right now, but Mattie, our heroine, is simply
ignored during most of her labor. She doesn't get to see her baby for almost a
day after giving birth, then sees her for only a few minutes at a time, for
feedings. SHe, and all the other mothers in the maternity home do breastfeed
(story takes place in Rhodesia, among the upper class white settlers) their
babies, but on a strict schedule of course. Soon after returning home from the
hospital, Mattie, and all her friends, quickly wean, worn down by listening to
their babies scream for hours between their strict 4 hour feeding schedules and
watching their milk supplies dry away.

>Notes from her Baby Book: "Broke 2am feeding at 2 weeks; Stopped 10pm bottle
>5 weeks; Stopped 2pm bottle 7 weeks, went on 3 meals daily."
>

I think this schedule was actually a little unusual for the time. Most of my
sources indicate that babies were kept on 5 feeds a day (4 hourly from 6 a.m.
to 10 p.m.) for the first several months. Even back in the 40's Spock wrote
that babies usually aren't ready for 3 meals a day until somehwere between 4
and 10 months.
(OTOH, I have another baby care book written by a guy with some rather unusual
ideas [maybe this was the book your mother was using!] who believed that babies
should be gotten onto solids based diets as soon as possible, weaned from the
bottle/breast by 3-4 months, and on 3 meals a day by 2-3 months of age.)


Naomi
CAPPA Certified Lactation Educator

(either remove spamblock or change address to to e-mail
reply.)