Re: Help - Breast inflammation

[Cathy]

Clisby Williams > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cathy wrote:
>
> >Hi all, I don't want to call this mastitis, but that is what it will
become
> >if left. From past experience I know that the only way to clear this up
is
> >to get DD on to it. But what do I do if she would rather lie there and
cry
> >than feed off that breast? I also know that I can't use a pump (that
makes
> >it worse), and I have been trying to hand express, but get next to
nothing.
> >Any suggestions as to how to get DD to feed off that side? It has been 3
> >feedings now, and she is really not keen, but will feed off the other
side
> >just fine. (And yes, I am using cold compresses, antiinflammitories, and
> >generally taking it easy!). I should add that DD is teething too, and
she
> >is really doing nasty things to my nipples with her gums and current
teeth.
> >Ouch.
> >
> >Any thoughts greatly appreciated.
> >
> >Cathy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Will she feed from that side during the night, when she's sleepy? I
> had recurring problems with
> plugged ducts until my son was about 6 months old (when I say recurring,
> I mean I was
> averaging an episode of plugged ducts every other week), and I often had
> to wake up my
> sleeping son to nurse because of it.
>
> Clisby
>

I tried her last night when she was fairly sleepy, and after a half hearted
suckle, she wanted the other side. I didn't realise at that stage what the
problem was. Since my last post, I have fed DD again - she took the
affected side, but didn't suckle strongly enough to clear the blockage - the
bottom of the breast is now nice and flaccid, but the top is still very
full. She doesn't have a very strong suckle (never has, never will I
suspect) . Last time I got a blockage, the only reason she cleared it was
because she went to sleep on the breast, got woken up very suddenly, yelled,
and then clamped down! I sort of tried the same thing last feed, but she
was just dozing instead of being dead to the world, and didn't mind waking.
Oh well - I'll try expressing by hand (I can't get a lot, but I suppose some
is better than none), and hope for the best. (I should also say that I also
tried a friend's son who is a great feeder, but he knew I wasn't mum!!).

Thanks,
Cathy

[Ruth Shear]

G'day

Cathy wrote:

> I don't want to call this mastitis, but that is what it will become
> if left.

well it could be mastitis - google for my posting in March called
"Inflammatory mastitis".

> yes, I am using cold compresses, antiinflammitories, and
> generally taking it easy!).

More more more of the above. I've just been through this twice more in
the last two months. Ice packs. Lots of ibuprofen. Lie down and take it
easy. Warm compresses to help let down before feeding. VERY GENTLE
massage. And if it doesn't clear up after 36 hours, get thee to a doc
and get some antibiotics.

DrRuth
Mum to Joshua Eamon (Nov 15th, 2001)
<http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~drruth/joshua/>

[Cathy]

Just to update, DD obviously decided she was really hungry. I gave her the
affected breast again (5th time in a row! - I'm off to pump the other one
now), and after a few half hearted sucks, I thought she was going to quit.
But then she decided to nurse properly, and the greedy guts went at it for
30 mins (she is usually done in about 10 these days). So phew! Again,
thanks for the help.

Cathy

[Melissa]

"Cathy" > wrote
> Hi all, I don't want to call this mastitis, but that is what it will
become
> if left. From past experience I know that the only way to clear this up is
> to get DD on to it. But what do I do if she would rather lie there and
cry
> than feed off that breast? I also know that I can't use a pump (that
makes
> it worse), and I have been trying to hand express, but get next to
nothing.
> Any suggestions as to how to get DD to feed off that side? It has been 3
> feedings now, and she is really not keen, but will feed off the other side
> just fine. (And yes, I am using cold compresses, antiinflammitories, and
> generally taking it easy!). I should add that DD is teething too, and she
> is really doing nasty things to my nipples with her gums and current
teeth.
> Ouch.

According to the LC who leads my bf'ing group, hot compresses are the way to
go. According to her, the heat opens the ducts so that the plug is more
likely to be removed during nursing. Although cold feels better, she says
that hot will help unplug the duct. (Personally, I put a washcloth in a
ziplock and put it in the microwave for a few seconds. It's reusable,
inexpensive and doesn't require a trip to the store.)
--
Melissa (in Los Angeles)
Mum to Elizabeth 4/13/03

[Ruth Shear]

G'day

Cathy wrote:

> I googled that last time I had this problem, and it is saved on my computer.
> Thanks - I believe it got me through these last 2 episodes.

I'm so glad. It was so different to the information I had read every
where else, and it really made sense for me and worked, so I try to let
everyone know about it.

> What is the difference between a plugged duct and inflammatory mastitis?
> The last 2 times I have had 'something!', I have had about 1/3 to 1/2 of my
> breast feel very hard, and the nipple has been very sore while feeding. I
> thought a plugged duct was more localised (i.e. there would only be a very
> small sore spot).

Well from my limited experience of this (I've had "something" about half
a dozen times), the first few times were relieved by lots of feeding,
massage, and warm compresses (yes before I knew about inflammatory
mastitis). So I presume they were plugged ducts of some form or another.
The first times I had inflammatory mastitis was the time I wrote about
it in march. I massaged too much. I used to much heat. I made it much
worse. The last two times I had it I "knew" what I was doing. In each
case ibuprofen, cold compresses and rest, warm and gentle massage when
feeding, feeding feeding and feeding, didn't make it better, so a call
to my doc and a course of antibiotics and all was better.

In all cases I do get 1/3 to 1/2 of my breast start off feeling full and
a little tender which then progresses to having areas I can feel are
getting swollen hard and tender, which then become red and hot and
incredibly painful to touch. Once the surface skin of the breast
actually peeled off after the infection was gone. I've never had a
single small sore spot. And I've never expressed out any lumps or gunky
stuff like some people report. So maybe I have never had a plugged duct.

> When DD has cleared the problem (see, I seem to think there was a
> blockage!), I have been left with a really tender nipple. Normally I can see
> the 'hole' where the milk comes out, but after an episode like this, it
> seems to be blocked (with dried pus/milk/fatty deposits?). There also seems
> to be like an emptied blister on the edge of the nipple. I looked up bleb,
> as I have seen people mention these, but to me, that doesn't seem to what I
> have. Could it be a friction blister? It is never there any other time.
> If so, what should I do about it?

I've not experienced this. Never had nipple pain associated with this.
Never had a bleb. The friction blisters I had in the first few weeks of
BF were nasty big blood blisters.

> And now to the nitty gritty - can a poor latch ever be corrected? DD has
> never been brilliant at latching. It wasn't her fault - she didn't have a
> lot to work with. I had almost non-existant nipples, which she has managed
> to pull out over time. One is now not bad, but the other (the breast that
> keeps getting blocked or whatever) is really misshapen, and I have noticed
> that it is often white - sometimes this is hours after a feed. DD is really
> strong, and often I can't position her properly. But I have also noticed
> that when she first latches, she is not too good at getting on, but if I
> take her off after a short time, she sort of sucks the nipple in (instead of
> really opening her mouth wide) - and this actually feels better. Is it
> worth contacting an LC after this length of time? (The one I worked with
> initially has left, so I'd have to find someone else, which could be a pain
> as I think there are only 2 others in my city).

Some one else should cover this. The whiteness hours after a feed sounds
like something others have talked about as Reynauds (?I think) or
vasospasm (Sorry it's late and I maybe misremembering). I would think
it's never too late to try and correct a latch.

> And finally, is there anything I can do to ease the nipple pain after an
> episode like this? I shouldn't expect it to happen again, but if it does, I
> want to know how to fix it fast! The first 2 times I had infective
> mastitis, the 3rd time I'm not sure what it was, and the last 2 times I have
> had the symptoms described above. I would really like to try and get to the
> bottom of what causes it, as I would like to feed DD for as long as
> possible, and I also want to be prepared for no. 2 (whenever that might
> be!).

The thing that helped my nipple pain at the start of my BF career (LOL)
was Soothies. Apparently there's something else called Maternimates too.
They are small gel peds that you keep in the freezer and place on your
nips after feeding. Incredibly soothing after the initial cold yelp.

> Thanks for getting this far (if you have).

You're welcome. Time to sleep

DrRuth

[Dawn Lawson]

Ruth Shear wrote:

> G'day
>
> Changing the subject in an attempt to lure people who know about
> vasospasm like Dawn...

Ah, I'm a sucker for a good luring.....
Lemme see if I can figure out what you want to know from me.....

> Cathy wrote:
>
> > > When DD has cleared the problem (see, I seem to think there was a
> > > blockage!), I have been left with a really tender nipple. Normally I can see
> > > the 'hole' where the milk comes out, but after an episode like this, it
> > > seems to be blocked (with dried pus/milk/fatty deposits?). There also seems
> > > to be like an emptied blister on the edge of the nipple. I looked up bleb,
> > > as I have seen people mention these, but to me, that doesn't seem to what I
> > > have. Could it be a friction blister? It is never there any other time.
> > > If so, what should I do about it?
>
>
> > > And now to the nitty gritty - can a poor latch ever be corrected? DD has
> > > never been brilliant at latching. It wasn't her fault - she didn't have a
> > > lot to work with. I had almost non-existant nipples, which she has managed
> > > to pull out over time. One is now not bad, but the other (the breast that
> > > keeps getting blocked or whatever) is really misshapen, and I have noticed
> > > that it is often white - sometimes this is hours after a feed.

Guessing this is where I step in....
If the nipple is white, it's probably blanched, or "out of blood", and that's VERY
painful...perhaps the nipple is hard and white? If so, try warm compress or try
rolling and squeezing behind the nipple, to press the blood back into the
constricted vessels, just like you'd squeese your finger to push blood out of a
pinprick.

> DD is really
> > > strong, and often I can't position her properly. But I have also noticed
> > > that when she first latches, she is not too good at getting on, but if I
> > > take her off after a short time, she sort of sucks the nipple in (instead of
> > > really opening her mouth wide) - and this actually feels better.

It COULD be that when she opens wide, she's getting the nipple in far enough to
compress it....and triggering the vasospasm. Does your nipple come out shaped like
a nipple or is it flattened like a lipstick or a tent? Does the whiteness start
after a feed? If you have inverted nipples, I suppose latching to draw it out and
then relatching might indeed work better since her second latch would be on a nipple
and not on the inversion, if you know what I mean.

>
> > Some one else should cover this. The whiteness hours after a feed sounds
> > like something others have talked about as Reynauds (?I think) or
> > vasospasm

I was told mine was vasospasm, which is triggered by an irritation, and if early
bfding doesn't count as irritating to nipples.....I don't know what does... ;-) I
also had a LOT of nipple pain if I got the slightest bit chilly when I was pregnant.

> > > And finally, is there anything I can do to ease the nipple pain after an
> > > episode like this? I shouldn't expect it to happen again, but if it does, I
> > > want to know how to fix it fast! The first 2 times I had infective
> > > mastitis, the 3rd time I'm not sure what it was, and the last 2 times I have
> > > had the symptoms described above. I would really like to try and get to the
> > > bottom of what causes it, as I would like to feed DD for as long as
> > > possible, and I also want to be prepared for no. 2 (whenever that might
> > > be!).
>

I'm going to have to look back and double check your symptoms, but if it doesn't
happen every time, I don't know that it's vasospasm, because that happened EVERY
time I nursed and got worse thru the night.

> > The thing that helped my nipple pain at the start of my BF career (LOL)
> > was Soothies. Apparently there's something else called Maternimates too.
> > They are small gel peds that you keep in the freezer and place on your
> > nips after feeding. Incredibly soothing after the initial cold yelp.

NOT if you have vasospasm. Cold would be excruciating. Think of how your nipples
feel on a chilly day, then multiply the feeling a thousand times......... :-O
warm/hot washcloths expand the seized up blood vessels and relieve vasospasm.

[Cathy]

Ruth Shear > wrote in message
...
> G'day
>
> Cathy wrote:
>
> > I googled that last time I had this problem, and it is saved on my
computer.
> > Thanks - I believe it got me through these last 2 episodes.
>
> I'm so glad. It was so different to the information I had read every
> where else, and it really made sense for me and worked, so I try to let
> everyone know about it.

Snip

> In all cases I do get 1/3 to 1/2 of my breast start off feeling full and
> a little tender which then progresses to having areas I can feel are
> getting swollen hard and tender, which then become red and hot and
> incredibly painful to touch. Once the surface skin of the breast
> actually peeled off after the infection was gone. I've never had a
> single small sore spot. And I've never expressed out any lumps or gunky
> stuff like some people report. So maybe I have never had a plugged duct.

Ouch! I can't imagine skin peeling off the breast. I have never expressed
any gunk either, but then when I have an 'episode', I generally get so
swollen that I can't express.

> > When DD has cleared the problem (see, I seem to think there was a
> > blockage!), I have been left with a really tender nipple. Normally I can
see
> > the 'hole' where the milk comes out, but after an episode like this, it
> > seems to be blocked (with dried pus/milk/fatty deposits?). There also
seems
> > to be like an emptied blister on the edge of the nipple. I looked up
bleb,
> > as I have seen people mention these, but to me, that doesn't seem to
what I
> > have. Could it be a friction blister? It is never there any other
time.
> > If so, what should I do about it?
>
> I've not experienced this. Never had nipple pain associated with this.
> Never had a bleb. The friction blisters I had in the first few weeks of
> BF were nasty big blood blisters.

Nope, mine doesn't sound like a friction blister then! I investigated the
area before a feeding today (I usually do it after a feeding), and I got a
wee bit of something out - didn't look like pus, but it could have been.

>
> > And now to the nitty gritty - can a poor latch ever be corrected? DD
has
> > never been brilliant at latching. It wasn't her fault - she didn't have
a
> > lot to work with. I had almost non-existant nipples, which she has
managed
> > to pull out over time. One is now not bad, but the other (the breast
that
> > keeps getting blocked or whatever) is really misshapen, and I have
noticed
> > that it is often white - sometimes this is hours after a feed. DD is
really
> > strong, and often I can't position her properly. But I have also
noticed
> > that when she first latches, she is not too good at getting on, but if I
> > take her off after a short time, she sort of sucks the nipple in
(instead of
> > really opening her mouth wide) - and this actually feels better. Is it
> > worth contacting an LC after this length of time? (The one I worked
with
> > initially has left, so I'd have to find someone else, which could be a
pain
> > as I think there are only 2 others in my city).
>
> Some one else should cover this. The whiteness hours after a feed sounds
> like something others have talked about as Reynauds (?I think) or
> vasospasm (Sorry it's late and I maybe misremembering). I would think
> it's never too late to try and correct a latch.

I looked up vasospasm/Reynauds, and although it sort of sounds right, I
don't think it is what I have. I suspect it is just blanching due to a poor
latch. I was quite surprised after the last feed, as I checked the nipple,
and it was shaped just right!
>
> > And finally, is there anything I can do to ease the nipple pain after an
> > episode like this? I shouldn't expect it to happen again, but if it
does, I
> > want to know how to fix it fast! The first 2 times I had infective
> > mastitis, the 3rd time I'm not sure what it was, and the last 2 times I
have
> > had the symptoms described above. I would really like to try and get to
the
> > bottom of what causes it, as I would like to feed DD for as long as
> > possible, and I also want to be prepared for no. 2 (whenever that might
> > be!).
>
> The thing that helped my nipple pain at the start of my BF career (LOL)
> was Soothies. Apparently there's something else called Maternimates too.
> They are small gel peds that you keep in the freezer and place on your
> nips after feeding. Incredibly soothing after the initial cold yelp.

Darn, I have never seen anything like Soothies. I'll have to have a look (I
am not in the US) and see if there is something similar.

So I think I'll get in touch with an LC, and see if she can offer a
solution. I'll also try LLL (tried the other day, but the contact person
wasn't in).

Thanks so much for your advice Ruth - it is nice to know that other people
are also too stubborn to give up BF!!

Cathy

[Dawn Lawson]

Cathy wrote:

> Dawn Lawson > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> When DD was younger, the nipple used to come out lipstick-like. But now it
> seems to come out 'nipple-shaped'. The whiteness is not present now (just
> after a feed). It seems to come on a bit later, really only if I shiver or
> get a chill..]

Sounds liek vasospasm to me.

> > warm/hot washcloths expand the seized up blood vessels and relieve
> vasospasm.
> >
>
> Thanks for the advice. I'll try warm compresses, and see if that will help
> heal things up.

If its vasospasm, there's nothing to "heal", it's just a condition of the
physiology of your body. What you try to do is restore the blood and "uncramp"
the blood vessels. See if warmth works for you.

Dawn

[Cathy]

Dawn Lawson > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Ruth Shear wrote:
>
> > G'day
> >
> > Changing the subject in an attempt to lure people who know about
> > vasospasm like Dawn...
>
> Ah, I'm a sucker for a good luring.....
> Lemme see if I can figure out what you want to know from me.....
>
> > Cathy wrote:

> > > > And now to the nitty gritty - can a poor latch ever be corrected?
DD has
> > > > never been brilliant at latching. It wasn't her fault - she didn't
have a
> > > > lot to work with. I had almost non-existant nipples, which she has
managed
> > > > to pull out over time. One is now not bad, but the other (the
breast that
> > > > keeps getting blocked or whatever) is really misshapen, and I have
noticed
> > > > that it is often white - sometimes this is hours after a feed.
>
> Guessing this is where I step in....
> If the nipple is white, it's probably blanched, or "out of blood", and
that's VERY
> painful...perhaps the nipple is hard and white? If so, try warm compress
or try
> rolling and squeezing behind the nipple, to press the blood back into the
> constricted vessels, just like you'd squeese your finger to push blood out
of a
> pinprick.
>

The rolling doesn't seem to work, so I'll try warmth.

> > DD is really
> > > > strong, and often I can't position her properly. But I have also
noticed
> > > > that when she first latches, she is not too good at getting on, but
if I
> > > > take her off after a short time, she sort of sucks the nipple in
(instead of
> > > > really opening her mouth wide) - and this actually feels better.
>
> It COULD be that when she opens wide, she's getting the nipple in far
enough to
> compress it....and triggering the vasospasm. Does your nipple come out
shaped like
> a nipple or is it flattened like a lipstick or a tent? Does the whiteness
start
> after a feed? If you have inverted nipples, I suppose latching to draw it
out and
> then relatching might indeed work better since her second latch would be
on a nipple
> and not on the inversion, if you know what I mean.

When DD was younger, the nipple used to come out lipstick-like. But now it
seems to come out 'nipple-shaped'. The whiteness is not present now (just
after a feed). It seems to come on a bit later, really only if I shiver or
get a chill.. I don't have inverted nipples, but they were pretty flat when
DD was born, and I guess they still are a bit.

> >
> > > Some one else should cover this. The whiteness hours after a feed
sounds
> > > like something others have talked about as Reynauds (?I think) or
> > > vasospasm
>
> I was told mine was vasospasm, which is triggered by an irritation, and if
early
> bfding doesn't count as irritating to nipples.....I don't know what
does... ;-) I
> also had a LOT of nipple pain if I got the slightest bit chilly when I was
pregnant.
>
> > > > And finally, is there anything I can do to ease the nipple pain
after an
> > > > episode like this? I shouldn't expect it to happen again, but if it
does, I
> > > > want to know how to fix it fast! The first 2 times I had infective
> > > > mastitis, the 3rd time I'm not sure what it was, and the last 2
times I have
> > > > had the symptoms described above. I would really like to try and
get to the
> > > > bottom of what causes it, as I would like to feed DD for as long as
> > > > possible, and I also want to be prepared for no. 2 (whenever that
might
> > > > be!).
> >
>
> I'm going to have to look back and double check your symptoms, but if it
doesn't
> happen every time, I don't know that it's vasospasm, because that happened
EVERY
> time I nursed and got worse thru the night.

This does not sound like me. It does not happen every time. And to be
honest, I'm not even sure if the nipples are white normally. If things are
going o.k., I tend to ignore the nipples! All I know is that after an
episode of mastitis, the nipples hurt and are white! I'll really have to
look at them when things are fixed, and see what they are like.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of what causes my episodes of mastitis. To
be honest, they aren't too bad (if I can DD to clear things) - it is the 5-7
days of nipple pain afterward that I hate.
>
> > > The thing that helped my nipple pain at the start of my BF career
(LOL)
> > > was Soothies. Apparently there's something else called Maternimates
too.
> > > They are small gel peds that you keep in the freezer and place on your
> > > nips after feeding. Incredibly soothing after the initial cold yelp.
>
> NOT if you have vasospasm. Cold would be excruciating. Think of how your
nipples
> feel on a chilly day, then multiply the feeling a thousand times.........
:-O
> warm/hot washcloths expand the seized up blood vessels and relieve
vasospasm.
>

Thanks for the advice. I'll try warm compresses, and see if that will help
heal things up.

Cathy

[Cathy]

Dawn Lawson > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cathy wrote:
>
> > Dawn Lawson > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > >
> > When DD was younger, the nipple used to come out lipstick-like. But now
it
> > seems to come out 'nipple-shaped'. The whiteness is not present now
(just
> > after a feed). It seems to come on a bit later, really only if I shiver
or
> > get a chill..]
>
> Sounds liek vasospasm to me.
>
> > > warm/hot washcloths expand the seized up blood vessels and relieve
> > vasospasm.
> > >
> >
> > Thanks for the advice. I'll try warm compresses, and see if that will
help
> > heal things up.
>
> If its vasospasm, there's nothing to "heal", it's just a condition of the
> physiology of your body. What you try to do is restore the blood and
"uncramp"
> the blood vessels. See if warmth works for you.
>
> Dawn
>

If it is vasospasm, why would I only notice it in one breast (the info I
found said it was generally in both breasts), and only after an episode of
mastitis? And the 'healing' in the last message referred to a crack - oops,
forgot to mention that. It is all better now though! Just a wee one this
time, which means that DDs latch is definitely not right. While feeding
before, I looked at what she did, and it seems she doesn't really get her
tongue down - the one time she did was the time it didn't hurt. I'd love to
go back to basics (like when she was a week onld!), but now she is so darn
strong that I find her very hard to position.

Thanks for your advice,
Cathy

[Cathy]

I finally contacted an LC this morning. I think she is the only one in
town, and wasn't that keen to see me. She said that based on my description
etc. it sounded as though I have a breast infection, and to go to the
doctor. Damn - that is what I have been trying top avoid. So off I go
tomorrow. I will get them to take a swab though, to check.

As a side note, DD coughed this morning after a feed off the affected
breast, and a bit of 'gunge' came up. She had just had a good feed, and the
breast does feel better now, so I wonder if there was a blockage, and that
was it?

So thanks for all the help -

Cathy