|
|
Bill Cosby - NAACP leaders stunned by remarks of prominent comedian
jimmineecricket wrote: "Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT PARENTING. They are buying things for kids - $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' He added: "They're standing on the corner and they CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH. I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I HEARD THE MOTHER TALK. And then I HEARD THE FATHER TALK ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. ... You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!" The Post said Cosby also targeted imprisoned blacks. "These are not political criminals," he said. "These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, [saying] 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?" He wont get any arguement here. He told it like it is and the NAACP just doesnt want to hear the truth. Most blacks dont want to hear the truth. They are their own worst enemy. Bob and Byron don't want to hear the *truth* either. Do you suppose they think Cosby is just an *Idiot_Scum_Racist* who is "not worth arguing with" and should be *PLONKED* ?? And while Cosby was at it, he should have condemned OOW_Breeding as well, just to cover all the IQ-75_Bases... |
Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: jimmineecricket wrote: "Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. And you know this how? THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT PARENTING. And you know this how? They are buying things for kids - $500 sneakers for what? Cite please, as to the number/percentage of lower socioeconomic parents that buy $500 sneakers. And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' Now THAT is a waste of money! He added: "They're standing on the corner and they CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH. Cite, please I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I HEARD THE MOTHER TALK. And then I HEARD THE FATHER TALK ... Bob and Byron don't want to hear the *truth* either. Do you suppose they think Cosby is just an *Idiot_Scum_Racist* who is "not worth arguing with" and should be *PLONKED* ?? When Cosby posts to the newsgroup, I'll discuss it with him, and then decide whether he should be *PLONKED*. I daresay his remarks would be far more intelligent than yours. Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are *Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob. |
On Fri, 21 May 2004 19:08:17 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote: wrote: jimmineecricket wrote: "Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. And you know this how? THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT PARENTING. And you know this how? They are buying things for kids - $500 sneakers for what? Cite please, as to the number/percentage of lower socioeconomic parents that buy $500 sneakers. And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' Now THAT is a waste of money! He added: "They're standing on the corner and they CAN'T SPEAK ENGLISH. Cite, please I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I HEARD THE MOTHER TALK. And then I HEARD THE FATHER TALK ... They speak a different dialect. This has always been a country of multiple dialects, and the dialectal variation was never nearly as extreme as it is in much smaller England. You can't talk the way "these people talk" (not that it had anything to do with "lower economics", which the poster is clearly using as a euphemism for race), but I'll bet you can't talk Cockney or Yorkshire either, and you probably can't understand them half as well as you could understand these folk. No, it is not a dialect. It is a very poor and wrong value system that many black people have. They do not value education and the good things in life. Without a sense of values a person is lost with nothing to build character and his/her life on. They don't know how to act or behave. It's very important that they get this corrected immediately if they ever want to amount to anything. Black people have been in this country for hundreds of years and many do not and/or can not speak English. Hispanics and Asians can speak English pronouncing words like police, President, incident correctly after just a few days. Blacks don't give a damn. They don't understand that they should value education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly. If they don't value these things, they are doomed. Holger Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. ... On street corners? Why? You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!" A doctor on a street corner is perfectly free to talk any way he likes. He wont get any arguement here. He told it like it is and the NAACP just doesnt want to hear the truth. Most blacks dont want to hear the truth. They are their own worst enemy. Bob and Byron don't want to hear the *truth* either. Do you suppose they think Cosby is just an *Idiot_Scum_Racist* who is "not worth arguing with" and should be *PLONKED* ?? When Cosby posts to the newsgroup, I'll discuss it with him, and then decide whether he should be *PLONKED*. I daresay his remarks would be far more intelligent than yours. lojbab http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
wrote:
Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are *Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob. Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them (regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney. Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
Holger Dansk wrote:
I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I HEARD THE MOTHER TALK. And then I HEARD THE FATHER TALK ... They speak a different dialect. This has always been a country of multiple dialects, and the dialectal variation was never nearly as extreme as it is in much smaller England. You can't talk the way "these people talk" (not that it had anything to do with "lower economics", which the poster is clearly using as a euphemism for race), but I'll bet you can't talk Cockney or Yorkshire either, and you probably can't understand them half as well as you could understand these folk. No, it is not a dialect. Yes it is. YOur opinion against those of a professional linguist, and I'll believe the linguist. It is a very poor and wrong value system that many black people have. That is not what determines how they talk on a street corner. They do not value education and the good things in life. Perhaps, but not relevant to their language. Without a sense of values a person is lost with nothing to build character and his/her life on. They don't know how to act or behave. I know a lot of people, of a variety of cultures, who know perfectly well how to behave, and choose not to do so anyway. They simply don't value your values. That doesn't mean that they have no values. It's very important that they get this corrected immediately if they ever want to amount to anything. Maybe they don't. They aren't obliged to. Black people have been in this country for hundreds of years I doubt that any black person has been in this country much more than 100 years, and most of those are in old-age homes. and many do not and/or can not speak English. They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look down their nose at you for that fault. Hispanics and Asians can speak English pronouncing words like police, President, incident correctly after just a few days. Some can, some can't. I know some of each category that cannot make themselves understood in English after having been here for a few years. But there is no "correctly" wrt to pronunciation, anyway, despite your prejudice. Blacks don't give a damn. They don't understand that they should value education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly. They aren't obliged to accept your value system. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 02:11:50 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... And I blamed the kid until I HEARD THE MOTHER TALK. And then I HEARD THE FATHER TALK ... They speak a different dialect. This has always been a country of multiple dialects, and the dialectal variation was never nearly as extreme as it is in much smaller England. You can't talk the way "these people talk" (not that it had anything to do with "lower economics", which the poster is clearly using as a euphemism for race), but I'll bet you can't talk Cockney or Yorkshire either, and you probably can't understand them half as well as you could understand these folk. No, it is not a dialect. Yes it is. YOur opinion against those of a professional linguist, and I'll believe the linguist. It's not my opinion. I'm trying to tell you the truth. I'm not interested in what some fool who calls himself a linguist has to say about anything. It is a very poor and wrong value system that many black people have. That is not what determines how they talk on a street corner. Oh yes it is. It is what makes them not sit, walk, talk, and, in general, act correctly. In short, they don't know how to act. They do not value education and the good things in life. Perhaps, but not relevant to their language. It's relevant to their everything. Without a sense of values a person is lost with nothing to build character and his/her life on. They don't know how to act or behave. I know a lot of people, of a variety of cultures, who know perfectly well how to behave, and choose not to do so anyway. Those are people who are really sick. Anyone who knows right from wrong and chooses the wrong is in bad shape. They simply don't value your values. That doesn't mean that they have no values. They don't have a value system at all. They were raised without ever learning any. It's very important that they get this corrected immediately if they ever want to amount to anything. Maybe they don't. They aren't obliged to. No, that's true. They are not obliged to live. They can just end it all if they so choose. Many, with no sense of values, commit suicide. Black people have been in this country for hundreds of years I doubt that any black person has been in this country much more than 100 years, and most of those are in old-age homes. Their race has been here for hundreds of years. and many do not and/or can not speak English. They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look down their nose at you for that fault. You are really into denial and are really confused. Where did live most of your life? You must get a value system quick. Hispanics and Asians can speak English pronouncing words like police, President, incident correctly after just a few days. Some can, some can't. I know some of each category that cannot make themselves understood in English after having been here for a few years. But there is no "correctly" wrt to pronunciation, anyway, despite your prejudice. You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. Blacks don't give a damn. They don't understand that they should value education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly. They aren't obliged to accept your value system. They aren't even obliged to live. Some choose not to. lojbab Where did you grow up? Must have been a ghetto. Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
|
Holger Dansk wrote:
[Blacks] don't understand that they should value education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly. Are you serious? Do the rest of us all think this is hilarious, or is it just me? Chris |
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
But there is no "correctly" wrt to pronunciation, anyway, despite your prejudice. I don't want to look like I'm supporting his bigoted agenda, but do you really think this? Are you saying any pronunciation of a word is equally valid? Selecting a word in common use in the news, "nuclear" we find to normal pronunciations "new clear" and "new que lar." I have to say, I think one of these _is_ correct and one is not. If you think I'm wrong, do you think "cat" would also be an equally valid pronunciation of that word? Chris |
Holger Dansk wrote:
You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench, couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right? What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? Chris |
I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who
can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech. Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort to understand them. Same with any other subgroup. I strongly suggest reading Ruby Payne. She's researched generational poverty and the social/familial situation around it. A great deal of the things you seem to be objecting to are features of that particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Middle class people do not have the same mentalities and behaviors that the very wealthy culture does (and it takes significant work for someone who develops wealth later to "fit in" with this culture). The same holds in generational poverty vs. generational middle class behaviors. |
Donna Metler wrote: I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech. Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort to understand them. Same with any other subgroup. A characteristic of the IQ-75z is an inability to grazp the causez of their problemz. Why would a group, that'z alwayz screaming about being excluded, intentionally want to "shut out the outside world" (your wordz) ?? A group that wants to be accepted should be trying to *minimize* the cultural differences. This warped IQ-75_Mindset is responsible for all the organizations (Black Student Union, Black this, black that, etc) emphasizing that DAFNz are *different*. Absolutely the wrong approach for acceptance... |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 10:20:33 GMT, Christopher Weeks
wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench, couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right? What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? Slouching is very incorrect. It means to walk, stand, or sit with a slouch. A slouch is a loose or drooping gait or posture. It's usually indicative of a lazy or incompetent person, who, by the way, may be called a slouch. Chris Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 06:27:29 -0500, "Donna Metler"
wrote: I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech. Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort to understand them. Same with any other subgroup. I strongly suggest reading Ruby Payne. She's researched generational poverty and the social/familial situation around it. A great deal of the things you seem to be objecting to are features of that particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Middle class people do not have the same mentalities and behaviors that the very wealthy culture does (and it takes significant work for someone who develops wealth later to "fit in" with this culture). The same holds in generational poverty vs. generational middle class behaviors. I can speak incorrectly too. Anyone can. The idea is to speak correctly. Below is your post done incorrectly. I teach in de inna' city. Slap mah fro! And I've heard some lot uh very educated sucka's who can slide back and fo'd between de local dialect and mo'e fo'mal speech. Lop some boogie. Heck, afta' 7 years, ah' can do it. Man! So's can mah' students. Dialect and slang is as much some way uh shuttin' de outside wo'ld out as nuthin else. IOW, dey duzn't particularly WANT t'be understood by sucka's who duzn't make an effo't to dig it dem. WORD! Same wid any oda' subgroup. Jes hang loose, brud. I strongly suggest eyeballin' Ruby Payne. She's researched generashunal poverty and da damn social/familial situashun around it. Man! A great deal uh de doodads ya' seem t'be objectin' t'are features uh dat particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Jes hang loose, brud. Middle class sucka's do not gots de same mentalities and behavio's dat da damn very wealdy culture duz (and it snatch'd significant wo'k fo' some sucka who develops weald lata' to "fit in" wid dis culture). De same holds in generashunal poverty vs. generashunal middle class behavio's. Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 10:11:15 GMT, Christopher Weeks
wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: [Blacks] don't understand that they should value education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly. Are you serious? Do the rest of us all think this is hilarious, or is it just me? That's the truth. Just ask Bill Cosby. Chris Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
Bob LeChevalier wrote:
wrote: Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are *Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob. Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them (regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney. Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist. lojbab With all due respect, Cosby has a PhD in education. And if you have ever listened to him talk, you would know that he is a very smart, thoughtful person. You do a disservice to him by dismissing him as a comedian. Slainte, Fletch |
and many do not and/or can not speak English.
They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look down their nose at you for that fault. But those British people do not sit in nearly all of the seats of power in this country, so there is no consequence other than the disdain of a few Brits. The consequence of speaking only ebonics is *obvious*. I'd fall off my damn chair if I ever heard a Supreme Court Justice or a Cabinet Secretary, etc. speaking ebonics and so would you I presume. Slainte, Fletch |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 09:20:41 GMT, (TheNIGHTCRAWLER)
wrote: wrote: I found Cosby just out there telling it like it is. Fringe people with an agenda look for something deeper. Good money in that. You can always find something if you look hard enough, BTW. Screw the link, you have to have a user account. Here is what Cosby said: Cosby, Saying the Darndest Things • Bill Cosby was anything but politically correct in his remarks Monday night at a Constitution Hall bash commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision. To astonishment, laughter and applause, Cosby mocked everything from urban fashion to black spending and speaking habits. Bill Cosby, ready to let off steam. (Lawrence Jackson - AP) "Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal," he declared. "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids -- $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' . . . "They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English," he exclaimed. "I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' . . . And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. . . . Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. . . . You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!" The Post's Hamil Harris reports that Cosby also turned his wrath to "the incarcerated," saying: "These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, [saying] 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?" When Cosby finally concluded, Howard University President H. Patrick Swygert, NAACP President Kweisi Mfume and NAACP legal defense fund head Theodore Shaw came to the podium looking stone-faced. Shaw told the crowd that most people on welfare are not African American, and many of the problems his organization has addressed in the black community were not self-inflicted. __________________________________________________ ____________________ The link works fine for me. It's: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May18.html Scroll down to Cosby. Holger I'm fed up with that BS of tracking what people will click on like candy vs a healthy meal. Tracking what people click on does nothing and generally degenerates society as a whole in my current experience. You will look at 15 shiny things and take a close look at one and there is no way on the web to distinguish between the two. It's why TV looks the way it does as databases track what people find fascinating as it is so different. People are attracted to extremes as being an oddity and maybe there is a reason for being odd. ARRRGH. Ahem. NC http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
Christopher Weeks wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote: You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench, couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right? What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? Chris It means to sit in a way that leads to injury, short term or long term, through falling or improper body posture. It means to sit in a way such that you damage things. There is also a correct way to look at a monitor and type while you are sitting correctly. Set that up wrong and work at a computer for a few years. You'll find what incorrect means. Slainte, Fletch |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 12:50:10 GMT, "Fletch F. Fletch"
wrote: and many do not and/or can not speak English. They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look down their nose at you for that fault. But those British people do not sit in nearly all of the seats of power in this country, so there is no consequence other than the disdain of a few Brits. The consequence of speaking only ebonics is *obvious*. I'd fall off my damn chair if I ever heard a Supreme Court Justice or a Cabinet Secretary, etc. speaking ebonics and so would you I presume. I don't think ebonics is taught anywhere in the United States. Even black people decided it was a bunch of doo doo. Slainte, Fletch Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
Donna Metler wrote:
I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech. Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort to understand them. Same with any other subgroup. Except that other subgroups seem to eventually prevail. I strongly suggest reading Ruby Payne. She's researched generational poverty and the social/familial situation around it. A great deal of the things you seem to be objecting to are features of that particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Middle class people do not have the same mentalities and behaviors that the very wealthy culture does (and it takes significant work for someone who develops wealth later to "fit in" with this culture). The same holds in generational poverty vs. generational middle class behaviors. Is she legit? It kind of looks like her main deal is selling books and seminars. Slainte, Fletch |
Christopher Weeks wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote: [Blacks] don't understand that they should value education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly. Are you serious? Do the rest of us all think this is hilarious, or is it just me? Chris Not much on this issue is hilarious. Clearly there are racists unleashing their hatred around here. But it is also clear (at least by what I have read and my experience) that there is a 1 SD difference between whites and blacks on standardized tests, asians score even better. In my work (network research), I notice that I have many asian and white colleagues, and almost no black colleagues. It bothers me, but it is what I would expect in my area from a black gaussian shifted 1 SD to the left. As far as I can tell, this issue is very real, and its causes need to be understood. As this problem currently seems to be intractable, I'm guessing we don't understand enough yet. Slainte, Fletch |
On Sat, 22 May 2004, Holger Dansk wrote: On Sat, 22 May 2004 06:27:29 -0500, "Donna Metler" wrote: I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech. Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort to understand them. Same with any other subgroup. I strongly suggest reading Ruby Payne. She's researched generational poverty and the social/familial situation around it. A great deal of the things you seem to be objecting to are features of that particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Middle class people do not have the same mentalities and behaviors that the very wealthy culture does (and it takes significant work for someone who develops wealth later to "fit in" with this culture). The same holds in generational poverty vs. generational middle class behaviors. I can speak incorrectly too. Anyone can. The idea is to speak correctly. Below is your post done incorrectly. I teach in de inna' city. Slap mah fro! And I've heard some lot uh very educated sucka's who can slide back and fo'd between de local dialect and mo'e fo'mal speech. Lop some boogie. Heck, afta' 7 years, ah' can do it. Man! So's can mah' students. Dialect and slang is as much some way uh shuttin' de outside wo'ld out as nuthin else. IOW, dey duzn't particularly WANT t'be understood by sucka's who duzn't make an effo't to dig it dem. WORD! Same wid any oda' subgroup. Jes hang loose, brud. I strongly suggest eyeballin' Ruby Payne. She's researched generashunal poverty and da damn social/familial situashun around it. Man! A great deal uh de doodads ya' seem t'be objectin' t'are features uh dat particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Jes hang loose, brud. Middle class sucka's do not gots de same mentalities and behavio's dat da damn very wealdy culture duz (and it snatch'd significant wo'k fo' some sucka who develops weald lata' to "fit in" wid dis culture). De same holds in generashunal poverty vs. generashunal middle class behavio's. Your example falls way short of "authentic." You seem to have gotten sidetracked by jive and slang. Further you wrap it in a traditional "formal" English structure. |
Joni Rathbun wrote: On Sat, 22 May 2004, Holger Dansk wrote: Below is your post done incorrectly. I teach in de inna' city. Slap mah fro! And I've heard some lot uh very educated sucka's who can slide back and fo'd between de local dialect and mo'e fo'mal speech. Lop some boogie. Heck, afta' 7 years, ah' can do it. Man! So's can mah' students. Dialect and slang is as much some way uh shuttin' de outside wo'ld out as nuthin else. IOW, dey duzn't particularly WANT t'be understood by sucka's who duzn't make an effo't to dig it dem. WORD! Same wid any oda' subgroup. Jes hang loose, brud. I strongly suggest eyeballin' Ruby Payne. She's researched generashunal poverty and da damn social/familial situashun around it. Man! A great deal uh de doodads ya' seem t'be objectin' t'are features uh dat particular ses group, not a specific racial group. Jes hang loose, brud. Middle class sucka's do not gots de same mentalities and behavio's dat da damn very wealdy culture duz (and it snatch'd significant wo'k fo' some sucka who develops weald lata' to "fit in" wid dis culture). De same holds in generashunal poverty vs. generashunal middle class behavio's. Your example falls way short of "authentic." You seem to have gotten sidetracked by jive and slang. Further you wrap it in a traditional "formal" English structure. It appearz to have been done uzing "The Jive Server" http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~eclectic/toys/jive.html Input your mainstream English, it returnz IQ-75_OOW_Breeding_Ebonicz... W'at it be, momma.. |
"Fletch F. Fletch" wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are *Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob. Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them (regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney. Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist. With all due respect, Cosby has a PhD in education. And if you have ever listened to him talk, you would know that he is a very smart, thoughtful person. You do a disservice to him by dismissing him as a comedian. I'm sure he is very smart, and can make intelligent comments about education. But the reporting of the gala seems to make it clear that while his comments had bite, the entertainers who were present were performing their trade, and one cannot judge a comment without context as well as sound and video information that would convey whether his remark was serious, or comedically timed. In particular, the snippets that were quoted sound like the sort of thing that he says in his comedy routines, taking real life situations and phrasing them in exaggerated but not wholly inaccurate manner. He had a routine about special education on one of his earliest albums in the 60s which was just that sort of thing that would sound politically incorrect and offensive if spoken at an education conference, but was quite funny on a comedy album. This gala was somewhere in between, probably with elements of both. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
Holger Dansk wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2004 02:11:50 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: They speak a different dialect. This has always been a country of multiple dialects, and the dialectal variation was never nearly as extreme as it is in much smaller England. You can't talk the way "these people talk" (not that it had anything to do with "lower economics", which the poster is clearly using as a euphemism for race), but I'll bet you can't talk Cockney or Yorkshire either, and you probably can't understand them half as well as you could understand these folk. No, it is not a dialect. Yes it is. YOur opinion against those of a professional linguist, and I'll believe the linguist. It's not my opinion. Yes it is. I'm trying to tell you the truth. "Truth" is for the religious and ideologues. I'm not interested in what some fool who calls himself a linguist has to say about anything. That's why you post ignorant opinions. It is a very poor and wrong value system that many black people have. That is not what determines how they talk on a street corner. Oh yes it is. It is what makes them not sit, walk, talk, and, in general, act correctly. You don't have the right to define "correctly". Especially since you behave incorrectly in the newsgroups by talking like a racist. In short, they don't know how to act. Racists don't know how to act. Or rather they choose to act incorrectly. They do not value education and the good things in life. Perhaps, but not relevant to their language. It's relevant to their everything. Your credentials are ...? Without a sense of values a person is lost with nothing to build character and his/her life on. They don't know how to act or behave. I know a lot of people, of a variety of cultures, who know perfectly well how to behave, and choose not to do so anyway. Those are people who are really sick. Anyone who knows right from wrong and chooses the wrong is in bad shape. Which is why I abuse you racists, because you are precisely the ones I have in mind. "Really sick". Nice self-diagnosis. Get thee to a shrink. They simply don't value your values. That doesn't mean that they have no values. They don't have a value system at all. Your expertise in determining this is ...? They were raised without ever learning any. You see some people on a street corner and you know their life history on hearing them? Not. It's very important that they get this corrected immediately if they ever want to amount to anything. Maybe they don't. They aren't obliged to. No, that's true. They are not obliged to live. They can just end it all if they so choose. Many, with no sense of values, commit suicide. But they do have values. Just not values that you necessarily approve of. Or maybe the same values but a different priority. Black people have been in this country for hundreds of years I doubt that any black person has been in this country much more than 100 years, and most of those are in old-age homes. Their race has been here for hundreds of years. People are human beings. They are not a race. and many do not and/or can not speak English. They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look down their nose at you for that fault. You are really into denial and are really confused. You are really into racism, and are really subhuman. Where did live most of your life? Wealthy suburban DC area at this point. A few years ago, it would have been well-off, working class San Francisco suburbia. But I've now been here longer than I spent there while growing up. You must get a value system quick. I have one, and IMHO it is far superior to yours. And it doesn't demean someone for their manner of speech. Some can, some can't. I know some of each category that cannot make themselves understood in English after having been here for a few years. But there is no "correctly" wrt to pronunciation, anyway, despite your prejudice. You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. Nope. Even with the most rigorous of subjects, mathematics, there are usually multiple ways to solve a problem, and NO ONE is obliged to do it your way, unless you are paying them to do so. Blacks don't give a damn. They don't understand that they should value education and speaking, walking, sitting, etc., correctly. They aren't obliged to accept your value system. They aren't even obliged to live. Some choose not to. Some racists commit suicide too. I wish more of them would. Where did you grow up? Must have been a ghetto. Nope. My childhood was lily white until high school, and the blacks I had in my high school classes weren't unlike your stereotypes. But then I met a Nazi racist like yourself, and decided that I wasn't like him. My sister a year later had a black girl as one of her closer friends and she was no academic slouch. Then I went away to college, and while there weren't a lot of blacks there, all but one of them was fully capable of holding his own in college (and there were no small number of whites who couldn't). Jump ahead 10 years, and I had a black boss who knew his business as well as anyone. I've seen badly behaving blacks, and badly behaving white trash, but I've seen good people as well. I've learned, unlike you, to judge people as individuals, and not as members of a stereotype. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
Holger Dansk wrote:
What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? Slouching is very incorrect. Why? It means to walk, stand, or sit with a slouch. A slouch is a loose or drooping gait or posture. Okay. It's usually indicative of a lazy or incompetent person, No. It's usually indicative of a relaxed person who for some unspecified reason doesn't much care about his posture at the moment. Lazy people are indeed often relaxed. Incompetent people may be either relaxed or tense, depending on how they deal with their incompetence. Well-adjusted people are also often relaxed. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
Holger Dansk wrote:
You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench, couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right? What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? Slouching is very incorrect. It means to walk, stand, or sit with a slouch. A slouch is a loose or drooping gait or posture. It's usually indicative of a lazy or incompetent person, who, by the way, may be called a slouch. What makes it incorrect? What makes the lack of a slouch superior? Chris |
Fletch F. Fletch wrote:
You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench, couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right? What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? It means to sit in a way that leads to injury, short term or long term, through falling or improper body posture. It means to sit in a way such that you damage things. There is also a correct way to look at a monitor and type while you are sitting correctly. Set that up wrong and work at a computer for a few years. You'll find what incorrect means. OK, but what's it to you? Everyone does stuff with, for and to their bodies that could be called sub-optimal. And really, the best way to look at these factors is through risk assessment. There is a risk that poor posture will lead to late-life back trauma. There is a risk that poor wrist positioning will lead to nervous disorders after years of typing. So those are incorrect, right? What about driving? Is driving incorrect because there is a risk of injury and death? I mean, the implications here are pretty broad and it certainly sounds to many of us like a very broad brush painting along lines of truth are being used to obscure racism. What's your agenda? Chris |
Christopher Weeks wrote:
Bob LeChevalier wrote: But there is no "correctly" wrt to pronunciation, anyway, despite your prejudice. I don't want to look like I'm supporting his bigoted agenda, but do you really think this? Are you saying any pronunciation of a word is equally valid? Validity is in the eyes of the listener. In Texas, to drawl is correct. In Massachusetts, to drop ones "r" and use a broad "a" is correct. Selecting a word in common use in the news, "nuclear" we find to normal pronunciations "new clear" and "new que lar." I have to say, I think one of these _is_ correct and one is not. I'm sure you do. But if you go to Merriam-Webster, you find Main Entry: nu·cle·ar Pronunciation: 'nü-klE-&r, 'nyü-, ÷-ky&-l&r Function: adjective and one of the three sound files for that word is the one that you find incorrect, and is not marked as disapproved. In other words, your "incorrect" pronunciation is so common that it is considered a normal one, and hence "correct". Just remember that the tangerine-like fruit that you might eat used to be a norange (actually it was probably spelled more like nauranj, after the Arabic "naranj" hence the modern spanish naranja), and we've been mispronouncing it for centuries. If you think I'm wrong, do you think "cat" would also be an equally valid pronunciation of that word? I don't see that one in the m-w definition. And you are being silly. But if I understood the word, then it would be acceptable. When a little kid asks for "pasketti and meatballs" for dinner, we understand them. If an adult we don't know pronounces it that way, we might start to wonder. But if someone who is the parent of a small kid smiles and says that s/he is serving "pasketti and meatballs" for dinner, I smile back and understand perfectly. Communication has occurred and that is, after all, the primary purpose of language. There is a secondary purpose of language for some people, and that is to put on airs and to distinguish yourself from lesser beings. British nobility has traditionally done this for centuries, leading to Received Pronunciation (aka the Queen's English). Some people try to emulate this so as to seem like they are "upper crust" and some people explicitly disdain to do so, and not necessarily because they can't. We don't look down on a Scotsman or an Irishman for talking with their accents even though they aren't RP, but they are as "incorrect" as Black English Vernacular is in this country. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
wrote:
Donna Metler wrote: I teach in the inner city. And I've heard a lot of very educated people who can slide back and forth between the local dialect and more formal speech. Heck, after 7 years, I can do it. So can my students. Dialect and slang is as much a way of shutting the outside world out as anything else. IOW, they don't particularly WANT to be understood by people who don't make an effort to understand them. Same with any other subgroup. A characteristic of the IQ-75z is an inability to grazp the causez of their problemz. Why would a group, that'z alwayz screaming about being excluded, intentionally want to "shut out the outside world" (your wordz) ?? Stress reduction. Creating a sense of belonging when much of the rest of society won't let them belong naturally. Precisely the same reason why teens use lots of slang and indeed often adopt a version of ghetto talk, even if they are white. They are excluded from adult society because they are teens, and they resent that exclusion, so they set up their own inclusive group and exclude adults by adopting non-standard behaviors. A very human reaction. A group that wants to be accepted should be trying to *minimize* the cultural differences. Why? That is the way to lose one's identity. I for one much prefer to have women not try to act like men in order to be accepted as equals. Why should I expect those of another culture to act like mine in order to be accepted as equals? This warped IQ-75_Mindset is responsible for all the organizations (Black Student Union, Black this, black that, etc) emphasizing that DAFNz are *different*. Absolutely the wrong approach for acceptance... Only to those who refuse to accept "different" as equal. In other words, subhuman racists. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
Holger Dansk wrote:
I can speak incorrectly too. Anyone can. The idea is to speak correctly. Below is your post done incorrectly. [Tripe deleted] Yep. It is certainly done incorrectly. You can't even imitate black dialect close to correctly. I'll bet that they could speak your dialect a lot better than you speak theirs. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
"Fletch F. Fletch" wrote:
and many do not and/or can not speak English. They do. But they don't speak your dialect. Nor do you speak the Queen's dialect, and I'm sure that there are British people who look down their nose at you for that fault. But those British people do not sit in nearly all of the seats of power in this country, so there is no consequence other than the disdain of a few Brits. We don't live in Britain, which still has an aristocracy by law. In this country, all citizens are equal, and to look down on another citizen for the way they talk is rude and crude. Racists are trying to establish a pseudo-class system in lieu of race, because technically, class discrimination isn't illegal. But looking down on any other person for any reason other than their being intentionally disruptive is simply *wrong*. The consequence of speaking only ebonics is *obvious*. It is, but should it be, assuming that you understand the person correctly? I had a lot of resentment in high school about a math teachers whose German accent I simply could not process (and in fact I have a lot of trouble with foreign accents - though I've never had any trouble understanding a black person) I'd fall off my damn chair if I ever heard a Supreme Court Justice or a Cabinet Secretary, etc. speaking ebonics and so would you I presume. I might out of surprise, but I hope not. I have no doubt that Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell are capable of doing so, and perhaps they actually do so when they let their hair down. So what? lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
Holger Dansk wrote:
I don't think ebonics is taught anywhere in the United States. Even black people decided it was a bunch of doo doo. I don't think you know what ebonics is. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
Holger Dansk wrote:
Here is what Cosby said: Note my highlights Cosby, Saying the Darndest Things ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ • Bill Cosby was anything but politically correct in his remarks Monday night at a Constitution Hall bash commemorating the 50th anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision. To astonishment, laughter and ^^^^^^^^ applause, Cosby mocked everything from urban fashion to black spending ^^^^^^ and speaking habits. Most of quote omitted but then: . . . .... . . . .... . . . .... . . . Most of the quote was omitted by the reporter, who included only the juicy parts and lots of ellipses. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!" You also can't be a doctor with the word "crap" coming out of your mouth. But you can be a Doctor of Education and a comedian. The link works fine for me. It's: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004May18.html The Post requires you to register to read articles. The poster was complaining about registering. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 10:51:37 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote: "Fletch F. Fletch" wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are *Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob. Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them (regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney. Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist. With all due respect, Cosby has a PhD in education. And if you have ever listened to him talk, you would know that he is a very smart, thoughtful person. You do a disservice to him by dismissing him as a comedian. I'm sure he is very smart, and can make intelligent comments about education. But the reporting of the gala seems to make it clear that while his comments had bite, the entertainers who were present were performing their trade, and one cannot judge a comment without context as well as sound and video information that would convey whether his remark was serious, or comedically timed. In particular, the snippets that were quoted sound like the sort of thing that he says in his comedy routines, taking real life situations and phrasing them in exaggerated but not wholly inaccurate manner. He had a routine about special education on one of his earliest albums in the 60s which was just that sort of thing that would sound politically incorrect and offensive if spoken at an education conference, but was quite funny on a comedy album. This gala was somewhere in between, probably with elements of both. Denial, denial, denial. All you have to do is go to the Google search engine (www.Google.com) and type in Cosby and "why you ain't" without the quotation marks and you will fine numerous web sites with the event on them. He was serious, of course. Man, everyone knows that many black people speak this way. Where you been, on another planet? It's just common knowledge. lojbab Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:28:41 GMT, Christopher Weeks
wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench, couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right? What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? Slouching is very incorrect. It means to walk, stand, or sit with a slouch. A slouch is a loose or drooping gait or posture. It's usually indicative of a lazy or incompetent person, who, by the way, may be called a slouch. What makes it incorrect? What makes the lack of a slouch superior? The same thing that makes walking with a drooping gait not the proper way to walk unless you are trying to look like a clown. You stand up straight when you walk. Chris Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
On Sat, 22 May 2004 15:35:06 GMT, Christopher Weeks
wrote: Fletch F. Fletch wrote: You probably don't realize that there is a correct way to do everything. I sure don't. I'm confused about the "correct" way to sit, for instance. I sort of figure that if your butt is on a chair, bench, couch, the ground, the back of a car, the edge of a table, etc. and your weight is mainly supported by that butt, allowing your legs and feet to rest, then you're sitting correctly. Right? What does it even mean to sit incorrectly? It means to sit in a way that leads to injury, short term or long term, through falling or improper body posture. It means to sit in a way such that you damage things. There is also a correct way to look at a monitor and type while you are sitting correctly. Set that up wrong and work at a computer for a few years. You'll find what incorrect means. OK, but what's it to you? Everyone does stuff with, for and to their bodies that could be called sub-optimal. And really, the best way to look at these factors is through risk assessment. There is a risk that poor posture will lead to late-life back trauma. There is a risk that poor wrist positioning will lead to nervous disorders after years of typing. So those are incorrect, right? What about driving? Is driving incorrect because there is a risk of injury and death? I mean, the implications here are pretty broad and it certainly sounds to many of us like a very broad brush painting along lines of truth are being used to obscure racism. What's your agenda? That's what Cosby is trying to tell you. Quit hiding behind racism, and begin valuing what is right and what is wrong. Try to be someone who does the right thing. Care about yourself and other people, and care about how you behave or act. It's very, very, very, very important to do that. Stop this "I don't give a damn." attitude. Holger Chris http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
On Sat, 22 May 2004, Bob LeChevalier wrote: "Fletch F. Fletch" wrote: Bob LeChevalier wrote: wrote: Those comments you question at the beginning of the post, are *Cosby's* not mine. He has donated millions to support DAFNz in college. He has a much better grasp of DAFNhood than you do, Bob. Cosby is a comedian. Unless I had the full text of his comments with all the context, and indeed preferably a video, since delivery is part of his humor, I would not interpret his comments any differently than I did. As posted, they were baloney, and because you posted them (regardless of who said them originally), they were racist baloney. Everything you say is racist baloney (even if you were to agree with me this would be the case), because you are a subhuman racist. With all due respect, Cosby has a PhD in education. And if you have ever listened to him talk, you would know that he is a very smart, thoughtful person. You do a disservice to him by dismissing him as a comedian. I'm sure he is very smart, and can make intelligent comments about education. But the reporting of the gala seems to make it clear that while his comments had bite, the entertainers who were present were performing their trade, and one cannot judge a comment without context as well as sound and video information that would convey whether his remark was serious, or comedically timed. In particular, the snippets that were quoted sound like the sort of thing that he says in his comedy routines, taking real life situations and phrasing them in exaggerated but not wholly inaccurate manner. He had a routine about special education on one of his earliest albums in the 60s which was just that sort of thing that would sound politically incorrect and offensive if spoken at an education conference, but was quite funny on a comedy album. This gala was somewhere in between, probably with elements of both. Bob, I don't think Cosby would make these remarks *just* to be funny. I believe he was mostly serious tho perhaps a bit exaggerated. And I don't think he was being funny at all when he beseeched blacks to stand up as they did during the civil rights movement and take their neighborhoods back. His opinion, while debatable, is not unique among successful blacks. They see the problems as disproportionate and they believe the solutions are within. The conversation often centers on why things are the way they are and, perhaps, addressing the symptoms. We hear from the racist crowd here that blacks are pre-destined for failure as a result of genetics and IQ. Others rightfully speak out against such nonsense. Meanwhile, Cosby and others are saying enough with the accusations and excuses already; just get out there and make something of yourself. Ultimately, you are the master of your own reality. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:56 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
ParentingBanter.com