On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 21:43:23 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:

Again Kane, you are showing your lack of ability to discuss this
issue.

You may not like what I say but I hardly think that that equates with
a lack of ability to discuss the issue on my part.

One
cannot ignore the fine lines between spanking and abusive behavior in
dealing with this issue than they can in refusing to deal with
emotional or
psychological abuse.

Absolutely. I think you are parroting me after missing that I said
much the same thing

Here, from the post below, is what I said (you might try breaking up
the post and replying directly and in proximity to the claim you are
attempting to refute):

Your problem is to determine what is spanking and what is beating
and
this has been an area of considerable weakness in the claims made
by
pro spankers and apologists.

I am, of course, referring the difficulty in determining that line.

Just an aside: Do you consider spanking as having any emotional or
psychological impact, and if so, what do you think that impact might
be on the developing mind of a child...not yet an adult?


What you might never accept as "spanking" might be so to someone
else.
I know I have frequently seen those on the pro side describe a
thoroughgoing whipping as "a spanking and well deserved" even when
they are the victim themselves.

When we discuss "spanking" in this ng each spanker seems to be coming
at it with their own idea of what spanking is and isn't, and it varies
considerably.

Those who do not hold with the idea of spanking a child have a much
clearer idea of what is and isn't abuse and spanking.

I am perfectly willing for spankers to work out together just what is
and isn't spanking with more exactitude. I think you'll find it
something of a work though. It hasn't happened before.

Personally I consider all spanking abusive, even the lightest tap, if
it is meant to stop an unwanted behavior. The risk of side effects,
and especially the escalation of unwanted behaviors as the child
struggles to explore her enviroment, can be pretty extreme.

In other words, to stop a child exploring and expanding their
knowledge of the environment without providing alternatives that honor
the drive that nature put in them to learn to survive and prosper is
in fact abusive.

To attempt to do so is simply wasting your time as you continue to
throw out
utter nonsense and use examples which do not apply to the majority of
situations that many of us here wish to address.

Well, list those you wish to discuss, or offer them up one at a time.
Each of them I'll suggest some alternatives to the use of spanking,
you can be sure.

If you start with non-punitive (notice I am going beyond just
spanking) parenting methods and develop what really is a very small
repertoire of tactics it is actually very easy. Not rocket science,
and not, especially, all the things you and other spankings think or
claim non-punitive parents actually do.

One of the assumptions that amuses me the most is that they
non-spanking parent is then left with nothing but psychological abuse
through another set of punishments...emotional abuse.

Trust me on this: most parents that give up spanking and use other
forms of punishment, or begin with other forms, are not going to get
anywhere either. In fact they, and the spanking parent, are in the
same dilemma in that each creates a little monster of their own..some
are quite monsters that will break out later, some are monsters now.

The physically hurt child tends, but not always, toward holding it all
in, while the emotionally abused psychologically punished child tends
to fight back with some of the tactics used on her, or him.

I appreciate that you left my post intact, even if you top posted. I
find arguments much more useful if claims are addressed something like
if we were having a conversation. That is why I intersperce, just as
in conversation, my comments throughout that of the other poster.

Feel free to break my posts up in the same way if you wish.

Kane



"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 22:43:44 GMT, "Dennis Hancock"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
. com...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 13:28:02 -0500, Jon Houts

wrote:


On 11 Oct 2003, Kane wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Ray Drouillard wrote:

Interesting. All of the prisoners that
he interviewed were spanked as children.

Again, were they 'spanked' or were they beaten?

I believe the researcher, one Fischer out of UOC school of social
work
many years ago, was simply looking for spanked.

Your problem is to determine what is spanking and what is beating
and
this has been an area of considerable weakness in the claims made
by
pro spankers and apologists.

What you might never accept as "spanking" might be so to someone
else.
I know I have frequently seen those on the pro side describe a
thoroughgoing whipping as "a spanking and well deserved" even when
they are the victim themselves.

It is an area fraught with obstacles.

I go around the issue, much to the consternation for some, by
stating
that deliberate punishment of a child is counterproductive to their
learning and their mental health.

Learning can be learning to do something, and that can include
learning to do the required developmental work to excell and not be
dysfunctional.

A child spending too much time trying to mind is NOT learning about
things like gravity, light, sound, and other physical phenomena,
and
they are sometimes leaving critical areas of the brain undeveloped
through lack of exercise.

I can make a warrior and factory worker by using punishment
methods,
but I'd be hard pressed to make a scholar, inventor, or other
intellectual exceller.

One could do a study of
most of the greats of our society throughtout the past century or
so
and
find a large number of them had also been spanked as very young
children.

No one couldn't. The greater the chances of greatness the greater
the
chances they were spanked less or not at all, and punishment wasn't
much of a factor in most of their lives. I have worked with
maladjusted children who were punished well who had everything
wrong
going on with them from socially malajusted to poor problem
solving,
to severe thinking errors, to being murderous homocidal maniacs.

They don't come from being NOT punished.

What does that study show?

Well, since you said yourself that one "could" do such a study why
don't you find one?

I'll save you the trouble. None has been done to my knowledge.
There
is speculation only.

I can offer you my observations in the hope that you too will look
above your current knowledge and consider some other possibilities.
After all, what harm would it do? You could always return, better
armed perhaps, to defend spanking and punishment parenting.

Have a good one,

Kane