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Old June 4th 04, 01:32 AM
Info Junkie
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On Tue, 01 Jun 2004 00:17:11 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote:

Info Junkie wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2004 00:53:38 GMT, "R. Steve Walz" wrote:

You mean where they were kidnapped? THAT crime gives them MORE claim
to this country than WE have!


No Mr Walz, where they were sold by their brethern. This is fairly well
documented, including a fairly recent acknowledgement by a country in Africa
that admitted the same.

------------------------
While true, that's irrelevant, who "owned" and abused them and
derived criminal gain is the determinant at question in America.


Should their have been no market Mr Walz, then no ownership would've been
possible. Yet the "market" had been around long before slaves were in America.

That some were abused is true Mr Walz...but not to the extent that many claim,
nor to the degree or knowledge which color was the "owner" or the "abuser" Mr
Walz:

Ervin L. Jordan Jr., an African-American and assistant professor and associate
curator of the Special Collections Department, University of Virginia library,
in his book, Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia
(University Press of Virginia-1995), wrote:

"Free blacks were encouraged to sell themselves into slavery and had the right
to choose their owner through a lengthy court procedure." and "More often than
not, and contrary to a century and a half of bullwhips-on-tortured-backs
propaganda, black and white masters worked and ate alongside their charges; be
it in house, field or workshop""

Since there were black slave-owners Mr Walz, any "reparations" wrt those who may
have ""owned" and abused them and derived criminal gain", MUST include the
descendants of the owners, regardless of color.

While "that crime" may or may not give them more claim to the own country of
origin,, but not the one to which they ended up in, nor have you presented
evidence they were ever kidnapped by any within this country (USA).

-----------------------
Irrelevant.
Kidnap is an ongoing crime, even now, since they still suffer.
It is as punishable here as a continuing crime, as anywhere it
first occurred.


Kidnapping for the slave trade was accomplished by their African brethren Mr
Walz, and if no market existed, no slave trade could've have existed. The crime
(kidnapping) involved those in Africa at the time Mr Walz, not America.

But I wouldn't advise it. The blacks in Africa live terrible
lives.
------------
By no means all of them.


For those interested, they are free, like any Americans to go to the origin of
their ancestry should they desire.

------------------------------------
A crime here is a crime here, and must be recompensed, their origin
is irrelevant.


Then "recompense" MUST begin where the "crime" originally occurred Mr Walz, and
involve those who were the "owners", including black slave-owners.

It's important that you respect yourself, and you will not do that
sitting on the curb all day saying "muhfugger" and "racist".
----------------
Actually, if you perceive that the degradation of your life and
livelihood is caused by mother****ing racists, then yes, it can
indeed restore much of your inculcuated depression produced by
racists who have systematically degraded you. If you believe that
you have been assaulted, instead of just believing what your
assailants told you abiout yourself, then yes, it can indeed
improved your self-esteem, and quite properly so!!


When one is sitting in the perceived mud puddle of self-pity Mr Walz, one may
get up and clean yourself off, or continue to splash in the mud puddle.

-------------------------------
Vengeance cleanses just fine. Don't confuse hate and self-pity.


Why would you "hate" and demand "vengeance" Mr Walz? Elsewhere you claim you're
not black.

You have
to get off your ass and really strive to improve yourself.
----------------
There is no such thing as "Free Will". People do what they believe
they must do, which is mostly what they have been told they must
do. If you want someone to stop cussing you, you'd better stop
treating them in a manner that any behaviorist can tell you will
make them do that!!


I've previously addressed this issue Mr Walz.

---------------------------
Not effectively.


You're entitled to your opinion, M Walz.

and it's not done by poor language, making poor
grades, incorrect behavior, and the crimes that blacks commit, etc.
--------------------
They must be given what has to replace their business, the way they
survive, which may seem like crime. AND THEY MUST BE GIVEN IT BEFORE
BEING EXPECTED TO RELINQUISH THE OTHER!!! People have to EAT!! Most
dope dealers SUPPORT THEIR FAMILIES!! Disrespect for people who want
their family to go hungry is NATURAL!!

Not anyone wants your family to go hungry.
-----------------
Don't pretend a polite lie!!
The rich would much rather go on six to eight vacations a year than
for their renters to eat properly and have a decent life. They try
to justify this by claiming that everyone decides their own fate,
when that is a ridiculous lie!


Now you are a spokesperson for "the rich"? It appears you wish to blame others
in another form of "splashing in water" in your perceived "mud puddle" Mr Walz.

--------------------------------
Your mud-puddle analogy is rotting, it's irrelevant.
Vengeance cleanses the heart.


So you're not interested in facts, rather, "vengeance". How, uh, "tolerant" of
you and your leftist- socialistic desire for wealth redistribution.

Like Bill Cosby says, it
would be great if you would help yourself to be better by speaking
correctly and not stealing and killing so much.
-------------------------------------
Like Bill Cosby LIEs, you mean. If he actually believes such things
after all the education he is supposed to have had, then he was a
really ****ty student who didn't pay much attention, and if he does
not then he is a damned liar fueled by political prejudice, ambition,
and the criminal urge to justify his own wealth in a cowardly manner.


So IYO of course, Mr Cosby lies, not because he believes what he says, but
beaciuse he was a "really ****ty student who didn't pay much attention"?

-----------------------------------
I don't bother to distinguish which.
He's wrong, and that must be said.


IOW, don't confuse you with facts. Understood.

ANYONE who EVER took a couple decent philosophy courses KNOWS that
Determinism is the most legitimate view of causation, no matter how
much it seems to violate the preferred popularized American Myth of
Self-Determination that is merely promoted by the wealthy as an effort
to shame the poor for their own fate so they won't gang up on them and
kill them all!


There are many theories in various areas of philosophy Mr Walz.

-------------------------
Nonsense, I've been over all the territory of Determinism, it just
isn't that large, because the question is actually fairly simple.
Only ignorance and willful disregard of logic makes it seem otherwise.


Which is still a theory, and facts will only confuse, as asnyone thatdisagree
must be "ignorance and willful disregard of logic". Understood.

For those you claim to "KNOW" it's meanings, they would no longer
be therories, but facts.

------------------------------
I know its theories, and which of them are facts and which theories
are NOT theories, actually. They don't HAVE to be only one or the
other. They are NOT mutually exclusive, so quit playing semantic
games.


Glad to see you admit it's still theory Mr Walz.

And ANYONE who has had a chemistry class or a science class knows
that the universe runs on cause and effect, and that what happens
inside your skull is every bit as determined by physical laws and
physics as any other experimental milieu in science, and that brain
chemistry is NOT ruled by our notions in some fanciful image of over-
riding "self-control", but rather instead the determinate chemistry
PRODUCES those notions and motivations.


Hmmm. What effect Mr Waltz, does the cited "ozone depletion", have on the
"chemistry" of the mind and subsequent thought processes? Feel free to provide
such evidence Mr Walz, not another theory.

-----------------------
Whatever its effect, it does NOT cause any "free will".


IYO of course.

OTOH, if what you claim were true Mr Walz, then this would also conflict with
those that claim humans evolved from "less-civilized" beings.

------------------------
Humans are defined as civilized. There is no such thing as "less"
or "un"-civilized except in instances where the term is used
colorfully, but inaccurately.


Whatever "colorfully" means. Yet slave ownership was once consider "civilized",
and now is not. Yet you desire "vengence" against that which was once considered

"civilized". How odd indeed.

How does one
"evolve" to a "higher level", while your claim that a person's "notions and
motivations" that are "inside your skull is every bit as determined by physical
laws and physics"?

--------------------------
Accident that includes a society accidentally evolving and finally
getting its **** together and effecting everyone's life. Evolution
is that happy accident that retains its own advantages.


If "every bit as determined by physical laws and physics", "determined" does not
equate to "accident" nor "lucky".

Cosby is supposed a Ph Ed, which means he has supposedly had a LOT
of philosophy and sociology, so either he was a ****ty student, or
he is a liar!


Or you could be wrong on any and all of which you write.

-------------------------------
Nope. Not when I'm right. Quit playing games and go play now.


IOW, don't confuse you with your own ideology. Understood.