Mel wrote:

Isn't it nice that CP mommies don't have to go through all those
contortions when they don't want to earn to support their kids....: )
All they have to do is ......NOTHING....except, of course, go down and
cash those checks the state squeezes out of daddy.

sarcasim on

Yeah right, Mel. They do nothing other than cash that extorsion check, and
let's not forget eat bon bons while watching Oprah.

Yep, the kids living with their CPs have extended bellies from maluntrition,
walk around in rags with heads infested with lice. They rarely go to school
cause CPs are too lazy to get out of bed, and the ones that do attend fail due
to lack of academic supervision.

Then you have all those female children of CPs that are preggers before they
graduate 8th grade and the male offspring that either join gangs or a drug
addicts before they hit Jr. High.

These CPs walk around in diamonds and furs or spend all those HUGE CS bucks on
dope, cigs, booze and gambeling.

Yep you're right Mel, the kids rasie themselves and support their CPs with the
CS.

Of course the *perfect NCP* couldn't ever win custody in a situation like this
because as we are told on this very ng, NCPs are just about all men and men
never ever get a fair deal in family courts.

sarcasim off

Mrs Indyguy



Mel Gamble

Indyguy1 wrote:

Don wrote:

In Defense of 'Deadbeat' Dads=20
http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive...lroy080404.htm

August 4, 2004
by Wendy McElroy

My comments will be interlaced........


A July 25 Justice Department study reveals that 6.9 million people -- =
one in 34 adults -- were on probation, parole or incarcerated in 2003. =
This record-breaking figure has prompted calls for the removal of =
nonviolent offenders from the system.=20
If that happens, the first offenders to be removed should be "deadbeat =
dads" imprisoned for defaulting on child support they cannot afford to =
pay.

**Deadbroke** dads, I'd agree with. The ones that REALLY can't pay.


An obstacle confronts this proposal. An amazing lack of data surrounds =
some basic questions: How many "deadbeat dads" are in the correctional =
system? Do they refuse to pay or are they unable to do so?"

That's the big question. And what constitutes not being able to pay? Is
quiting
your job because you don't want to stay in a particular field any longer
and
you take a lower paying job really a valid reason? If after paying all of
ones
personal bills and expenses there isn't enough left to pay the CS is that
a
valid reason? Is taking on additional children or expenses a valid reason
to no
longer pay CS? How about those that get fired from a high paying job and
take a
minimum wage job and then have no proof they even attempted to find
something
that would be close to what they were making?

See to me therein lies the big problem. Sure there are people out there
that
can't earn what they need to to be able to pay their CS and live a
reasonable
life. BUT it's the skunks that try and play the system that make the truely
in
need of the most minimum awards or abatements up for very tough scrutiny.

I have sat in court rooms and watched some guys feel their boat payments,
or
vacations, or building a new home shouldn't be considered when it comes to
being able to pay CS. I have watched a guy use a cane to get to the bench
to
present a Dr.'s letter that he couldn't work any longer to the judge and
then I
saw him in the parking lot walking just fine as he became a contortionist
to
fit into his sports car. I too have watched NCPs stand in front of a judge
and
swear they really have been trying to get a job but present not one name or
number for anywhere they applied or anyone they interviewed with, even
after
they were told to keep a log of these things..

The other thing that doesn't bode well for those that REALLY can't pay, is
when
a judge tells a NCP to payup or go to jail a good portion of them some how
find
the money.

No wonder it's hard to get a reduction.


The dearth of data is amazing because the "deadbeat dad" has been a =
high-profile issue in politics and the media for many years. Non-payment =
of child support is a significant problem in the United States. =
According to the Federal Office of Child Support, in 2003, $96 billion =
in accumulated unpaid support was due to children in the United States; =
68 percent of child support cases were in arrears. An overwhelming =
majority of children, particularly minorities, living in single-parent =
homes where child support is not paid live in poverty. Yet, many =
questions about these fathers and why they fail to pay remain =
unanswered.

This baffles me too. 68% is an awfully high number. I wonder just how
accurate
that figure is.


The "deadbeat dad" became a priority issue on a federal level in 1975, =
when President Gerald Ford created the national Office of Child Support =
Enforcement, the function of which had previously been the purview of =
states.

In short, for almost 30 years, an army of civil servants and government =
officials have spent billions of dollars to track down "deadbeat dads." =
Yet even such basic and easily collected data as how many have been =
jailed is difficult to find.

I'd love to know just how many NCPs ever actually go to jail. I think the
number is much lower than some would want others to believe.


The DOJ states that 2,078,570 people were incarcerated "in Federal or =
State prisons or in local jails" as of June 30, 2003. The crimes for =
which people were incarcerated are sorted into four categories: Violent, =
Property, Drug, Public-order. There is no category for "deadbeat dads." =
Indeed, the local family courts that sentence fathers for non-payment =
generally do so on "contempt of court" charges; that is, the fathers are =
in contempt of a court-ordered payment. This makes their cases difficult =
to sort out from other contempt charges.

To my knowledge, there is no national data on the number of "deadbeat =
dads" incarcerated on "contempt" for non-payment. (The group, Hunger =
Strike for Justice, estimates the number at 250,000, but their figure =
may well be inflated.)

Instead of hard data, anecdotal reports abound -- often in the form of =
local news items about sentencing within a community.

The numbers are important. Prison populations are growing rapidly even =
as crime rates continue to sharply decline. According to the DOJ, the =
number of people incarcerated rose by 130,700 or by "2.9% from midyear =
2002." It is important to identify categories of nonviolent prisoners =
whose release pose no threat to society.

I beleive that anyone that ***refuses*** to support their child IS posing a
threat to society.


Fathers who have been imprisoned because of an inability to pay are =
perfect candidates for release.

I agree providing their inability is not do to anything they have done or
do to
create the inability.

Indeed, their continued incarceration =
comes close to establishing a de facto debtors' prison -- an institution =
supposedly abolished more than 200 years ago by President Adams.

Debtors prisons were abolished to prevent creditors from forcing
incarseration
for nonpayment for goods and/or services. That isn't the same as supporting
your child.


But are the incarcerated fathers unable to pay? An easy "yes" or "no" =
answer does not exist. Nor do reliable statistics. Again, anecdotal =
information fills the vacuum.

Exactly. One NCP I know says he shouldn't have to pay CS because he now has
two
toddlers and he and his 2nd wife don't want to put them in daycare. So his
answer was to quit his job and say he can't pay. He can pay, he just chose
not
to. BTW he is now paying and feels *so mistreated by the system*. He feels
he
falls into the *can't pay* and deadbroke catagory, but of course he
doesn't.


Some imprisoned fathers may be able to pay but refuse to do so because =
of grievances. For example, they may be withholding support until their =
court-ordered visitation rights are respected.

Or they hate their ex more than they care about their kids, or they feel
the
amount they have to pay is unfair, or they move on not just from their exes
but
also from the children they had with them.


The story told by an imprisoned "deadbeat dad" who identifies himself as =
"HeartBroken Father" is probably more common. After two heart attacks, =
he became homeless. Nevertheless, he writes, "I was still labeled a =
'deadbeat dad' by New York State, which suspended my driver's license, =
and my professional license to practice as a Respiratory Technologist in =
New York." (Revocation of professional licenses is standard procedure =
against "deadbeat dads.")

By the time HeartBroken Father had landed a minimum-wage job, he owed =
$30,000 in back child support. Despite a perfect record of paying when =
employed, he was sentenced to five months of consecutive weekends in =
jail, at which point he lost his job.

After describing the dangerous, humiliating and terrifying experience of =
being imprisoned even as a "weekender," HeartBroken Father comments, =
"some judges use imprisonment ... as a 'tool,' to pry loose hidden funds =
from deadbeat dads, their friends or relatives. I think this tactic is =
probably very effective, because no one that could pay and get out would =
subject themselves willingly to prison."

I agree with this guy and find it digusting that the skunks out there are
the
REAL cause of guys like this going to jail.


In short, any "deadbeat dad" who endures prison is probably unable to =
pay his way out. This scenario becomes more likely when you consider =
that employed "deadbeat dads" have child support withheld from their =
wages; employers are required to do so by law.

LOL, not anywhere near all.

Therefore, those =
imprisoned are probably unemployed or have earnings that cannot cover =
their payments.

OR and that's a BIG OR they are self employed, working for cash, have
mutiple
SS#'s, present inflated living expenses, or quit their jobs and move on to
another when the witholding order comes up, or work for an employer that
doesn't have to withold CS because they are a small bussiness.


Their employment prospects sink with each imprisonment, even as their =
child support debt rises.

And for those that are TRUELY deadbroke, this is unaccetable.


It is difficult to understand what is accomplished by imprisoning such =
nonviolent fathers. It is easier to understand what releasing them =
accomplishes. Quite apart from humanitarian concerns, the correctional =
system -- especially the prison system -- cannot sustain its current =
growth rate. The DOJ estimates that in 2001, "2.7% of adults in the U.S. =
had served time in prison, up from 1.8% in 1991 and 1.3% in 1974." Now =
the estimate is 3.2 percent. Even if society could accommodate the =
soaring rate of imprisonment, the prisons themselves cannot.

I agree. I don't think prison is the best route even for *most* that are
avoiding CS and can pay it. I'd much rather see all their assets frozen and
their bank accounts attached. If they deal in cash then maybe prision is
the
right place for them as they aren't paying taxes either.


In some areas of the United States, incarcerated deadbeat dads are =
already being released. For example, prison authorities in Macomb =
County, Mich., recently released "60 drug offenders, deadbeat dads and =
other low-level offenders" due to overcrowding. It is time for the =
release of impoverished deadbeat dads to become official policy in every =
corner of North America.

Deadbroke to be released? You bet ya. Deadbeat? That's depends.

Mrs Indyguy

Wendy McElroy=20

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